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View Full Version : End of the week with Major Malphunktion - Kobold Union Edition



Produktion_Malphunktion
10-28-2011, 04:57 PM
There is still some confusion on why players are so nice to kobolds in Crystal Cove, but turn around and slaughter us on Kobold Island. Kobold just wanted a vacation!

So. Challenges!!! If you haven't guessed, Crystal Cove was a prototype for a new way to build stuff faster...and differently. There are some kinks still in the system with difficulty and rewards, but that from a implementation sense is the easy stuff. From a QA and Design sense, it is like trying to find a perfect middle ground...in an ocean.
Personally I'm excited by this system more than some of the other things we have done this year. I look at Stormreach as a place to play in, and not conforming to one set of rules. The idea that we can do things other than MMO accepted design, or explore other game types that MMO designers don't get to, or may never get to design is a win win for everyone. Happy players, happy designers...and happy QA folk. I know that there are some that are not going to care for them. That's cool. There is more that could care less about raids, but we build them too. Give them a chance, remember sometimes it is about *fun* and not about *loot* (SACRILEGE BURN THE HERETIC!). If you don't find these fun, you might find one to your liking in the future. Personally I want a kobold throwing catapult game where I'm trying to knock down buildings in the harbor or a death match hockey game with exploding pucks or a racing game around 3 barrel cove on flying carpets. All possible without adding much new to the game.

Let's talk about Lamannia for a min. It is a preview world. I say that for a reason, because I want feedback, but I don't expect people to 'bug hunt'. That said, please remember you are seeing the unfinished product. Loot, xp numbers and such are the last things coming in. they are the wallpaper, we need to make sure the foundation is sturdy before doing the interior decorating. We are attempting to get things out in front of people quicker and more often after the U10 crafting incident of 2011, but yes you will see things in a rougher state.
tomorrow there is an event for challenges-with real prizes! See Kookies announcements for more details!
I have plans for Lama in the future to make it more than a preview world...we shall see...

Bug fixes- there is talk about putting a plan in place to attack old bugs in 2012 (that is 2 months away already...how did that happen?) There were hundreds of fixes in the last patch, and I don't want to do mega patches like that again.

Lag-All I can say is there is an active investigation and we have made headway. But with U12 right around the corner we are waiting to put fixes out then. Trust me, this is the best option.

Mabar- I promise it will be better next year.

Fix in 12 that might not be known about: Cleric hirelings are no longer mad, but take 2pp for every heal...only kidding. Defensive healing works again, and wandering angry hirelings are more well behaved.

Also Epic chests no longer disappear. you can check that out on Lamannia

Well, happy weekend- Happy Halloween and...

Go Pats!

AZgreentea
10-28-2011, 05:02 PM
I think you should skip U13. Go from U12 to U14. Personally, 13 is one of my lucky numbers, but if you do decide to do something for U13, I hope you do something fun with the traditionally unlucky number. ;)

Thanks for the great work and the updates!

Cauthey
10-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Maj, as always, thanks for the update! :D We get lonely and worried here in the community forums when we are left to our own musings for too long without some Dev or QA guidance and reassurance. :D

oradafu
10-28-2011, 05:15 PM
So with the 4 different challanges released on Lammania, we can see that 52% of the challenges are just variations of the Cove. Please tell me that Update 13 will have more to offer.

Also, if it hasn't been heard yet: WE WANT PRESTIGE CLASSES! It was disappointing when only two new ones were released per update. Now it will be the second update with no meaningful additions to Prestige classes.

Rinnaldo
10-28-2011, 05:38 PM
Personally I want a kobold throwing catapult game where I'm trying to knock down buildings in the harbor or a death match hockey game with exploding pucks or a racing game around 3 barrel cove on flying carpets. All possible without adding much new to the game.

I like the way you think!


Let's talk about Lamannia for a min. It is a preview world. I say that for a reason, because I want feedback, but I don't expect people to 'bug hunt'. That said, please remember you are seeing the unfinished product. Loot, xp numbers and such are the last things coming in. they are the wallpaper, we need to make sure the foundation is sturdy before doing the interior decorating. We are attempting to get things out in front of people quicker and more often after the U10 crafting incident of 2011, but yes you will see things in a rougher state.

I saw a post where Kookie said something similar. I appreciate the clarification! This makes things make a lot more sense, at least to me, personally.

Keep up the good work! It is far more appreciated than is vocalized!

NytCrawlr
10-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Thanks again MajMal for the weekly update and I continue to look forward to U12 and what is to come in the future. :)

Soulstabber
10-28-2011, 05:57 PM
Bug fixes- there is talk about putting a plan in place to attack old bugs in 2012 (that is 2 months away already...how did that happen?) There were hundreds of fixes in the last patch, and I don't want to do mega patches like that again.


*Cough* We will get fabricator bracer and other items to proc on ranged weapons in 2012? *cough* =p

Ovrad
10-28-2011, 07:37 PM
Personally I want a kobold throwing catapult game where I'm trying to knock down buildings in the harbor

Yes! I want Angry Kobolds! Citizens of Stormreach have stolen their eggs (they do lay eggs right?), and they're trying to get revenge (but end up mostly splatting themselves on buildings). :D

EDIT: On a more serious note, one of the thing that disappointed me a bit on the challenges, is that they still use most of the same old core mechanics of quests. Granted I only tried out the 2 first releases on lam, but defending resources from endless incoming mobs or exploring a kinda generic looking dungeon is hardly original. Sure, special resources management, finding crests, finding power-ups all adds a bit, but essential you're still defending some helpless stuff or zerging through a dungeon. Even the variants don't seem to change much. I have not tested the other 2 challenges, but so far, challenges haven't really peeked my interest.

However, I'd much rather have stuff that you can't do in a normal quest, like:
Wacky games like you described, where character stats don't matter, only skills as a player.
Survive for as long as possible vs an endless horde of increasingly powerful monsters (with no mana pots and no raises allowed). This challenge should never be won, and SHOULD end in horrible death.
Navigate though a random maze of insanely deadly traps and occasional puzzles and/or monsters. Maybe even some platforming involved. (no raises again)
a HUGE scale battle were you are not participating, but rather commanding troops and upgrading stuff. ...and maybe manning a catapult 'cause that's always fun! :D
Some sort of reverse-dungeoncrawl, where you roam the place, place traps and monsters are the ones that explore and try to steal your treasures. The more you save, the more you keep.

You know, different stuff than you usually do, 'cause my first impression of challenges was: normal quests, except more repetitive because of variants.

cdbd3rd
10-28-2011, 08:10 PM
.... Personally I want a kobold throwing catapult game where I'm trying to knock down buildings in the harbor ....!


Given all the time some of us spent playing cat-a-pult (or whatever it was), this would most certainly get some serious play time. Would open up a whole new field of opportunity for 'kobold exclamations'. ;)

And as always - greatest appreciation for taking the time, MajMal.

Ganak
10-28-2011, 08:27 PM
MajMal, join date of 2/2011.






Awfully green there, come do some zerging with me on Argo.

bbqzor
10-29-2011, 04:18 AM
sometimes it is about *fun* and not about *loot*. If you don't find these fun, you might find one to your liking in the future

A quick comment about this, one that I have wanted to make several times but always held off for one reason or another.

Currently (as it is on lamma) there are favor rewards (artificer) and some itemization rewards (loot) which are unique to the new challenges. This means that, by its very nature, its about the rewards/loot on a very tangible level. That holds true of everything in any MMO which has only one avenue of acquisition.

For those of us who would like to have fun (playing an artificer, or having some of the new loot effects which are not, and have no history of being, integrated backwards through the game) we are forced into grinding the content, whether we consider said content fun or not; or be faced with giving up hopes of having fun with the target reward in the first place.

I suppose it could be said that Artificer has another avenue of acquisition, which is true even if I find the idea of simply buying it of little appeal personally. And the items are hardly mandatory to experience most of the game. So please don't interpret this as any kind of illogical request to simply be handed everything because the game is unplayable otherwise.

My point is, for your original statement there to really be applicable, there would have to be alternative ways to go about most things in the game. Which is, ironically, what DDO was originally about: it flat out intentionally tried to make quests playable by killing, stealthing, using turn undead, etc... there was a whole example worked up with how different classes might get around some undead and traps using different abilities which was used a lot in the initial promotion postings. Now, more and more quests are being changed to force only one method, with required kills all over the place, only one path to go, immunities or removal of all kinds of abilities, etc.

I'd like for there to be more in the future. But I'd also like that variety back, where you have choices about how to quest, and more than one way to get the chest at the end. Please implore whoever is in charge of that, of looking at ways to integrate effects elsewhere, or in multiple places. And try to add quests with more than one path, without required kills every 10 feet, without barring effects or adding immunities to everything.

Like some bridge you need to cross, where you fight the troll on the bridge and he doesnt agro until you walk too far past him while in his perception range. So you could fight him, or waterwalk across off to the side and avoid him, or sneak past him, or can hail him and diplo to pay his toll since he wont agro initially, or bluff him without paying and have a short window of time before he figures it out and then agros if youre still around in his range, and have like a half dozen ways of dealing with that one objective. Poor example perhaps but its not like I spent more than a moment on it.

Partycrashers, as one example, is close with a lot of optionals that use different abilities, but at the end of the day theres really one 1-2 ways to do each of them. And, its not really dealing with main objectives different ways, so much as it is doing side quests. Expand that, so different classes/builds/skills/abilities/items are useful each step of the way. People can use a lot of different abilities to complete the main objective and get the same main chest/reward, and instead of having lfms that are like 'need diplo for more loot' or 'casters only' you might get 'need 1 person for troll, anything works' with the emphasis back on different classes bringing cool abilities to the table not just differing dps numbers. With maybe 200 favor available so we only need half of it, so we can pick and choose whats required to grind instead of having only one option.

I realize thats basically a request for more content, in larger chunks at a time, with a higher complexity in each piece. So perhaps an unreasonable request, and if so fair enough. But until theres a larger level of latitude in how to approach things, it kind of is about the rewards. Because without them, in a game where you just play for the sake of playing content for fun, no one would repeat quests the number of times we are required to in order to get loot. People do that because its fun to use the rewards in future quests, not because they enjoy shroud for the 500th time. Anyhow, thats what I would like to see to justify the fun not loot comment, in a general sense. Shrug, just 2 cents, thanks.

youdonut
10-29-2011, 05:03 AM
tomorrow there is an event for challenges-with real prizes! See Kookies announcements for more details!

well its kinda hard to check the announcements when there is no user named kookie (i checked in search)



Lag-All I can say is there is an active investigation and we have made headway. But with U12 right around the corner we are waiting to put fixes out then. Trust me, this is the best option.

INVESTIGATION????? people have been complaining about the lag for over 2 years but all you guys seem to think is hey lets put some more buggy stuff into the game and hope it distracts our PAYING customers from the problems with the games.

Mabar- I promise it will be better next year.

I really doubt that.. it will be forgotten like the rest of the problems with the game.

FranOhmsford
10-29-2011, 05:18 AM
Yes! I want Angry Kobolds! Citizens of Stormreach have stolen their eggs (they do lay eggs right?), and they're trying to get revenge (but end up mostly splatting themselves on buildings). :D

EDIT: On a more serious note, one of the thing that disappointed me a bit on the challenges, is that they still use most of the same old core mechanics of quests. Granted I only tried out the 2 first releases on lam, but defending resources from endless incoming mobs or exploring a kinda generic looking dungeon is hardly original. Sure, special resources management, finding crests, finding power-ups all adds a bit, but essential you're still defending some helpless stuff or zerging through a dungeon. Even the variants don't seem to change much. I have not tested the other 2 challenges, but so far, challenges haven't really peeked my interest.

However, I'd much rather have stuff that you can't do in a normal quest, like:
Wacky games like you described, where character stats don't matter, only skills as a player.
Survive for as long as possible vs an endless horde of increasingly powerful monsters (with no mana pots and no raises allowed). This challenge should never be won, and SHOULD end in horrible death.
Navigate though a random maze of insanely deadly traps and occasional puzzles and/or monsters. Maybe even some platforming involved. (no raises again)
a HUGE scale battle were you are not participating, but rather commanding troops and upgrading stuff. ...and maybe manning a catapult 'cause that's always fun! :D
Some sort of reverse-dungeoncrawl, where you roam the place, place traps and monsters are the ones that explore and try to steal your treasures. The more you save, the more you keep.

You know, different stuff than you usually do, 'cause my first impression of challenges was: normal quests, except more repetitive because of variants.

NO Platforming please!

Character stats NEED to matter more not less - This is D&D - I play it to be better than I am in real life thank you.

I don't have the speed or coordination on a computer to play most games - I only started playing this because it was D&D.

Can we get quests that are closer to the original ethos of D&D please.

SUGGESTION: Sovereign Host Priest approaches you in House P and asks you to protect some worshippers from a Silver Flame fanatic's mercenaries.

Urist
10-29-2011, 05:32 AM
Personally I want a kobold throwing catapult game
I'm put in mind of the Goblin Doomdivers from Warhammer; with artificial "wings" attached to their arms. Makes more sense for Kobolds actually, since they are, after all, descended from Dragons. :D


I think you should skip U13. Go from U12 to U14. Personally, 13 is one of my lucky numbers, but if you do decide to do something for U13, I hope you do something fun with the traditionally unlucky number. ;)
The second Friday in July would be a truly auspicious time to release U13... :)

CaptainSpacePony
10-29-2011, 06:59 AM
[QUOTE=youdonut;4149257]tomorrow there is an event for challenges-with real prizes! See Kookies announcements for more details!

well its kinda hard to check the announcements when there is no user named kookie (i checked in search)


The challenge is finding the announcement!

Full_Bleed
10-29-2011, 09:10 AM
INVESTIGATION????? people have been complaining about the lag for over 2 years but all you guys seem to think is hey lets put some more buggy stuff into the game and hope it distracts our PAYING customers from the problems with the games.

Counterpoint/Perspective:

For the last year, my static group (spanning 2600 miles) and I have played DDO almost every week during peak hours (Friday evening/nights.) And for more than 99.9% of that time we've played this game lag free. And when we have had lag, it's almost always been ISP related or it has come in fleeting, inconsequential spikes that resolve in seconds (not minutes.)

Last night our group ran Mabar and found one laggy instance. Switched to another and had no problem. We also ran a Spectral Dragon Raid (level 15-19) with no lag (didn't think it would be possible given some of the reports on the forum.)

DDO is far from perfect, but lets not overstate the Lag issue or the number of people complaining about it. If you want your lag issue dealt with wouldn't it be more productive to actually provide actionable information rather than to make inflammatory statements? I'm not saying you don't have lag, I'm saying that you might want to consider that it's not the soul-crushing issue you think it is for every "paying customer" playing the game.


I do believe that a simpler and more useful lag-reporting tool in the game might make lag investigations more productive for all involved though.

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-29-2011, 10:00 AM
MajMal, join date of 2/2011.






Awfully green there, come do some zerging with me on Argo.

Ever think this is just my nom de plume?

Terebinthia
10-29-2011, 10:11 AM
As ever, thanks for the update Maj.

I'm going to try all the challenges on Lama next week I hope, when I've got all my perishing spectral dragon scales.

Any chance of upping the drop rate of turn ins or flexing the number required for Mabar next year? It's taking a looong time to open the dragon chamber outside US prime time. I feel for the Aussies even more....

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-29-2011, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE=youdonut;4149257]tomorrow there is an event for challenges-with real prizes! See Kookies announcements for more details!

well its kinda hard to check the announcements when there is no user named kookie (i checked in search)


The challenge is finding the announcement!


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4148559#post4148559

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-29-2011, 10:23 AM
As ever, thanks for the update Maj.

I'm going to try all the challenges on Lama next week I hope, when I've got all my perishing spectral dragon scales.

Any chance of upping the drop rate of turn ins or flexing the number required for Mabar next year? It's taking a looong time to open the dragon chamber outside US prime time. I feel for the Aussies even more....


Already in discussion. I'm not sure where that landed at the EOD yesterday...

cdr
10-29-2011, 11:27 AM
Maj -

Another one of my personal bugaboos.

The True Seeing part of the Tinker's awakened set bonus has never worked, and when I bug reported it the response indicated it was a "known issue".

This is U11 content, does that count as "old bugs"? Is fixing bugs like that so low priority that we're going to have to wait till 2012 to see it fixed?

Auran82
10-29-2011, 12:18 PM
Already in discussion. I'm not sure where that landed at the EOD yesterday...

And please don't forget the whole "So you have been farming collectables in the graveyard for the past couple of hours, and had to go afk at the wrong time and missed your 10 minute window to get into the dragon fight, oh well, time to farm items for the next several hours again" thing.

Ovrad
10-29-2011, 12:29 PM
NO Platforming please!

Character stats NEED to matter more not less - This is D&D - I play it to be better than I am in real life thank you.

I don't have the speed or coordination on a computer to play most games - I only started playing this because it was D&D.

Can we get quests that are closer to the original ethos of D&D please.

SUGGESTION: Sovereign Host Priest approaches you in House P and asks you to protect some worshippers from a Silver Flame fanatic's mercenaries.

You missed the point. Yes, that is exactly how quests work. I was saying challenges should be different than quests, because right now they don't feel any different to me. Devs will never change the mechanics for quests, we all know that, but it would be nice for challenges to bring something new, and hopefully each of them would be varied as well.

oradafu
10-29-2011, 12:33 PM
And please don't forget the whole "So you have been farming collectables in the graveyard for the past couple of hours, and had to go afk at the wrong time and missed your 10 minute window to get into the dragon fight, oh well, time to farm items for the next several hours again" thing.

That's why I thought static 20 or 30 minutes for the doors to open in Mabar or the Cove would have been a better alternative. The quest would be available at a reasonable rate in all timezones that didn't depend on the farming of ingredients. Additionally, it would end the speculation of when the doors will open. Sure, the drawback would be that there might not be enough people to do the Spectral Dragon each time, but perhaps a failed attempt is perferrable to no attempt at all.

umplehat
10-29-2011, 12:42 PM
a death match hockey game with exploding pucks


I would love to see that, seriously. maybe even put use it with the ice games?

FeralKittie
10-29-2011, 12:43 PM
Quick question; any word on UI skins? I saw they were working on Lamannia but didn't notice anything in the notes to indicate this would carry over to live.

I got a chance to run a couple of the challenges on Lamannia and thus far I'm loving the break from traditional questing. Can't wait to see what else is in store! What about something with puzzles? The "aha" moment the first time my bf and I figured out the Sane Asylum puzzle; priceless. And I always hit Ghost of a Chance on all my characters 'cause I think the puzzle's neat. Anyway, it's great to have a variety of mechanics to enjoy in the game, for whatever I'm in the mood for.

Thanks for working so hard to keep in touch with us! :)
Happy Halloween!

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-29-2011, 01:14 PM
if it is on lama, it will make it to live.

FeralKittie
10-29-2011, 01:17 PM
if it is on lama, it will make it to live.

Awesome. Thanks for the quick reply!

BadBuy
10-29-2011, 02:27 PM
Yes! I want Angry Kobolds! Citizens of Stormreach have stolen their eggs (they do lay eggs right?), and they're trying to get revenge (but end up mostly splatting themselves on buildings). :D

EDIT: On a more serious note, one of the thing that disappointed me a bit on the challenges, is that they still use most of the same old core mechanics of quests. Granted I only tried out the 2 first releases on lam, but defending resources from endless incoming mobs or exploring a kinda generic looking dungeon is hardly original. Sure, special resources management, finding crests, finding power-ups all adds a bit, but essential you're still defending some helpless stuff or zerging through a dungeon. Even the variants don't seem to change much. I have not tested the other 2 challenges, but so far, challenges haven't really peeked my interest.

However, I'd much rather have stuff that you can't do in a normal quest, like:

Wacky games like you described, where character stats don't matter, only skills as a player.
Survive for as long as possible vs an endless horde of increasingly powerful monsters (with no mana pots and no raises allowed). This challenge should never be won, and SHOULD end in horrible death.
Navigate though a random maze of insanely deadly traps and occasional puzzles and/or monsters. Maybe even some platforming involved. (no raises again)
a HUGE scale battle were you are not participating, but rather commanding troops and upgrading stuff. ...and maybe manning a catapult 'cause that's always fun! :D
Some sort of reverse-dungeoncrawl, where you roam the place, place traps and monsters are the ones that explore and try to steal your treasures. The more you save, the more you keep.

You know, different stuff than you usually do, 'cause my first impression of challenges was: normal quests, except more repetitive because of variants.

Yes, I would love something very different. So that it could be a real "break" from the questing and raiding.
They don't have to give rewards that would be unobtainable otherwise, then people that don't want to run them wouldn't be upset about them.

Talking about platforming this video was one of the first ones I found before starting to play DDO and I think that one of the challenges could be like this (yes, I know it's crazy):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVE4cnzUEpI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z81T6FycBz4

PS. Please make Radiant Burst work without having to select yourself each time. :)

smatt
10-29-2011, 05:08 PM
Greatly appreciate the updates Maj.....

Hopefully things get sorted a bit on the "Lag-like issues".... It realyl doe sdrag the game down for A LOT of players.... Not all.. But a lot... I bet it realyl cuts into the bottom line with new players though. And yes a good nubmer of us understand it's not an easy set of problems(s) to find and solve, as well as being a never ending stream on new ones every update. The same goes for bugs... I'm glad there's talk of dealign with MORE of the long standing ones as time goes forward. It just like the 2 former items get left in the dust heap, along with too many unfinished items too often. Again, myself or anybody else "out here" don't see the isnide, the numbers etc.. But I'm betting those 2 subejcts send a lot of people packing far sooner then they should be....

Oh and Mabar shoudl be changed to a 12 man instance fight.... Tweak the quest..... 40 people per instance is killin' it.. ;)


P.S. Told you Texas was goin' down.... :D Cards! ;) (Lucky game 6) :o

Fiall
10-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Mabar is terrible...farm spawns and fight off all the singles hoping to tap mobs so you can kill them for them.
Then when you do get in you are so lagged you cannot move so you die...and then get punted...no scale.

This is not a fun event it is a time sink that adds no fun at all.

Terrible.

WanderingGrump
10-30-2011, 03:52 AM
Maj -

Another one of my personal bugaboos.

The True Seeing part of the Tinker's awakened set bonus has never worked, and when I bug reported it the response indicated it was a "known issue".


I notice that this is yet another "bug" that is not on the "Official" Buglist posted. Is there going to be a effort to publish the real known bugs or are players going to have to report each individually and yet not realize what parts of the content aren't working?

I also noticed that there were never any release notes for Update 11 Patch 1. Yet this particular patch introduced one of my current pet peeve bugs, the User Skin fail.

Since update 12 fixes this particular bug, any word you can release when it will be released?

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-30-2011, 07:42 AM
maybe because we didn't see that bug, hard to put something on a list if you dont know about it.
This goes back to 'you have no idea how big this game is from the inside' that I've mentioned. QA is a spec ops team, not a branch of the Armed Forces. When things break outside of where the scope of the release is, yes it will be missed. If we did a full regression every release, we would do one release a year. Since that would suck for everyone involved-including you guys, I need to go with picking prime targets. Custom UI was not on the target list, and from our perspective there was no reason it should have been.

Phemt81
10-30-2011, 07:44 AM
If we did a full regression every release, we would do one release a year. Since that would suck for everyone involved-including you guys

Not for me if that could mean no bugs at all :)

Cleanincubus
10-30-2011, 09:30 AM
Not for me if that could mean no bugs at all :)

+1 I could deal with no new content, for a one shot deal, that fixed things. Like fixing every known issue, fixing hirelings once & for all, taking a huge chunk out of the serious lag problems.

WolfSpirit
10-30-2011, 09:38 AM
And please don't forget the whole "So you have been farming collectables in the graveyard for the past couple of hours, and had to go afk at the wrong time and missed your 10 minute window to get into the dragon fight, oh well, time to farm items for the next several hours again" thing.~
~
Im with this. That very small window suck with SUCH a long wait period. Plus during "off" hours where its REALLY takes forever to open up, its nuts to come back from bio and making a bit to eat (for example) to find 3 mins left of opening and RUN to get in ASAP, only to find there are less than 16 people in the instance and you waited ALL that time to (sure enough every time!) FAIL! This has happened to me a HORRIBLE 3 times already.

mystafyi
10-30-2011, 09:45 AM
maybe because we didn't see that bug, hard to put something on a list if you dont know about it.

hey maj, didja fix the bug reporting function yet? I know it was taken down recently since bug reports were not being logged properly and then there was a blog for bugs. I would like to know where i can post exploitable bugs other then on the alternative forum ;)

on another note, why dont players get TP or other rewards for helping ya'll troubleshoot and identify bugs/exploits?

MnaSidhe
10-30-2011, 09:58 AM
Not for me if that could mean no bugs at all :)

+1
some time spent taking care of everything that does not work (handwraps etc) would also not be wasted!

Produktion_Malphunktion
10-30-2011, 09:58 AM
hey maj, didja fix the bug reporting function yet? I know it was taken down recently since bug reports were not being logged properly and then there was a blog for bugs. I would like to know where i can post exploitable bugs other then on the alternative forum ;)

on another note, why dont players get TP or other rewards for helping ya'll troubleshoot and identify bugs/exploits?


Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html

Did I fix something? I don't fix a thing. I just tell people they are busted.
Exploits- just PM me, Kookie...well, anybody.

Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.
And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never. There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

mystafyi
10-30-2011, 10:16 AM
There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

hahaha... thats nothing compared to the impending zombie infestation coming in 2012! ;)

PM sent

t0r012
10-30-2011, 01:25 PM
Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html

Did I fix something? I don't fix a thing. I just tell people they are busted.
Exploits- just PM me, Kookie...well, anybody.

Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.
And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never. There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

Programmers drinking song

1000 little handwrap bugs in the code
Take one down n' pass it around
1001 little handwrap bugs in the code
Take one down pass it around
1002 little handwrap bugs in the code .....

Keep going till you can't stand anymore without falling over.

-----
I'm not taking a shot here I just took a funny thing my wife ( a programmer) has on her wall and DDO'efied it.
Unlike most monks I don't get too upset at the handwrap issues , as I have dabbled in some coding and even from my limited experience I know they must be an absolute. &!?!' to code.
But please don't break the ghosttouch again just as I'm starting a new monk and farming deleras and shadow crypt again , that really sucked.

Sarezar
10-30-2011, 01:32 PM
Give them a chance, remember sometimes it is about *fun* and not about *loot*

Loot IS fun...

I don't mind the challenges, I think they are fun. But be careful not to change DDO to a facebook game. I don't know what everyone thinks but I'd guess most people who play DDO like the fantasy setting and the idea of completing meaningful quests. Storytelling already suffers a lot in DDO, random "throw Kobolds to buildings" quests don't help in that aspect.

t0r012
10-30-2011, 03:36 PM
A quick comment about this, one that I have wanted to make several times but always held off for one reason or another.

Currently (as it is on lamma) there are favor rewards (artificer) and some itemization rewards (loot) which are unique to the new challenges. This means that, by its very nature, its about the rewards/loot on a very tangible level. That holds true of everything in any MMO which has only one avenue of acquisition.

For those of us who would like to have fun (playing an artificer, or having some of the new loot effects which are not, and have no history of being, integrated backwards through the game) we are forced into grinding the content, whether we consider said content fun or not; or be faced with giving up hopes of having fun with the target reward in the first place.

I suppose it could be said that Artificer has another avenue of acquisition, which is true even if I find the idea of simply buying it of little appeal personally. And the items are hardly mandatory to experience most of the game. So please don't interpret this as any kind of illogical request to simply be handed everything because the game is unplayable otherwise.

My point is, for your original statement there to really be applicable, there would have to be alternative ways to go about most things in the game. Which is, ironically, what DDO was originally about: it flat out intentionally tried to make quests playable by killing, stealthing, using turn undead, etc... there was a whole example worked up with how different classes might get around some undead and traps using different abilities which was used a lot in the initial promotion postings. Now, more and more quests are being changed to force only one method, with required kills all over the place, only one path to go, immunities or removal of all kinds of abilities, etc.

I'd like for there to be more in the future. But I'd also like that variety back, where you have choices about how to quest, and more than one way to get the chest at the end. Please implore whoever is in charge of that, of looking at ways to integrate effects elsewhere, or in multiple places. And try to add quests with more than one path, without required kills every 10 feet, without barring effects or adding immunities to everything.

Like some bridge you need to cross, where you fight the troll on the bridge and he doesnt agro until you walk too far past him while in his perception range. So you could fight him, or waterwalk across off to the side and avoid him, or sneak past him, or can hail him and diplo to pay his toll since he wont agro initially, or bluff him without paying and have a short window of time before he figures it out and then agros if youre still around in his range, and have like a half dozen ways of dealing with that one objective. Poor example perhaps but its not like I spent more than a moment on it.

Partycrashers, as one example, is close with a lot of optionals that use different abilities, but at the end of the day theres really one 1-2 ways to do each of them. And, its not really dealing with main objectives different ways, so much as it is doing side quests. Expand that, so different classes/builds/skills/abilities/items are useful each step of the way. People can use a lot of different abilities to complete the main objective and get the same main chest/reward, and instead of having lfms that are like 'need diplo for more loot' or 'casters only' you might get 'need 1 person for troll, anything works' with the emphasis back on different classes bringing cool abilities to the table not just differing dps numbers. With maybe 200 favor available so we only need half of it, so we can pick and choose whats required to grind instead of having only one option.

I realize thats basically a request for more content, in larger chunks at a time, with a higher complexity in each piece. So perhaps an unreasonable request, and if so fair enough. But until theres a larger level of latitude in how to approach things, it kind of is about the rewards. Because without them, in a game where you just play for the sake of playing content for fun, no one would repeat quests the number of times we are required to in order to get loot. People do that because its fun to use the rewards in future quests, not because they enjoy shroud for the 500th time. Anyhow, thats what I would like to see to justify the fun not loot comment, in a general sense. Shrug, just 2 cents, thanks.
This ^

More "stealth repossession " less "kobold assault"
Don't get me wrong I like a good beat down as much as the next guy but it is the variety that makes DDO different and better and that has been sorely lacking for quite a while.
Yes a nifty puzzle in a beat down is better than none but it isnt the flavor this game needs to keep it differentiated.

WanderingGrump
10-30-2011, 04:00 PM
maybe because we didn't see that bug, hard to put something on a list if you dont know about it.
This goes back to 'you have no idea how big this game is from the inside' that I've mentioned. QA is a spec ops team, not a branch of the Armed Forces. When things break outside of where the scope of the release is, yes it will be missed. If we did a full regression every release, we would do one release a year. Since that would suck for everyone involved-including you guys, I need to go with picking prime targets. Custom UI was not on the target list, and from our perspective there was no reason it should have been.

Your GMs replay that it's a known bug and close tickets out so if it's not a bug what is it considered?

As far as prime targets are concerned is the in game "Report a Bug" on the list?

MnaSidhe
10-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.

I laugh at you for laughing at me.
Really I would be okay with no new content until nov 2012...
Really really.
If it meant some of the bugs got cleaned up... being able to play with working handwraps would be like new content! et cetera

Havok.cry
10-30-2011, 06:00 PM
When is u11 going live? Can you hurry and release u12... Seriously hurry up already ;) (jk)

Terminus-Est
10-30-2011, 06:43 PM
I gotta say, I've been pretty impressed with the current fast pace of updates and releases for DDO. I'm used to seeing my favorite games start off with a strong development (by an individual for the smaller ones, or a group for the commercial ones) that slowly tapers off into nothingness. For a single-developer game (like a rogue-like) this is general a five year process. Commercial games have an even faster turn over, with major support terminating a few months to a year after release. MMOs can fold in again about five years if they arn't re-injected with vigor.

But my favorite games are the exceptions. The roguelike that has been continuously honed, added to and evolved over fifteen years. The RPG whose player-based modding community has kept it alive after ten. The MMO which has reinvented its own payment model and pulled itself up by its own bootstraps.

When I first started DDO, I did not see in it the potential that I see now. I think things are headed in a better direction and I'm seeing some evidence of this in every update. Keep it up; or ****, make it better if you can, we appreciate it :)

Missing_Minds
10-30-2011, 07:06 PM
+1 I could deal with no new content, for a one shot deal, that fixed things. Like fixing every known issue, fixing hirelings once & for all, taking a huge chunk out of the serious lag problems.

*looks at the join date* thought so. Let me tell you, that your statement is a load of garbage. DDO has already been through that before. Update 0 and the last Mod. Do you know how much time passed? 1.5-2 years.

Do you know how many people the game lost because of no new content? We were figuring the game was going to be shut down quite honestly.

So no, new content every 3-4 months for a MMO is near mandatory for it to stay alive any more.

What I'd wish is that they would do MONTHLY patches/bug fixes. I'll take content every 4-6 months. That sort of schedule would make me happy.

Phemt81
10-30-2011, 08:39 PM
Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.
And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never.

What? You laughing at me? Let's see what moderators think about that when i press the report... oh wait... :p :D

Jokes apart, why don't you try us? Make a poll and just ask what we REALLY want.

The results could surprise you. ;)

Galeria
10-30-2011, 08:47 PM
Love the update, love hearing that bugs are going to be addressed. Looking forward to my handwraps working!

Osharan_Tregarth
10-31-2011, 01:31 AM
Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html

Did I fix something? I don't fix a thing. I just tell people they are busted.
Exploits- just PM me, Kookie...well, anybody.

Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.
And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never. There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

So.. let's talk about my personal pet peeve. (Well, one of them anyway)

The ladder bug.

No, I'm not talking about the ladders that were accidently broken in one update a while back so that they don't connect in the middle anymore.

I'm talking about the reason that every experienced ddo player I know has to jump to get on a ladder. Any ladder, anyplace... Or sometimes they just rubberband in place at the bottom of the ladder.

Is this a limitation in the game engine? Is it something that only people over a certain amount of latency experience? It's been in the game since the very first day I started playing ddo, and it's been there consistently and reliably ever since, through five different computers on my end.

And yet I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

Targonis
10-31-2011, 06:25 AM
maybe because we didn't see that bug, hard to put something on a list if you dont know about it.
This goes back to 'you have no idea how big this game is from the inside' that I've mentioned. QA is a spec ops team, not a branch of the Armed Forces. When things break outside of where the scope of the release is, yes it will be missed. If we did a full regression every release, we would do one release a year. Since that would suck for everyone involved-including you guys, I need to go with picking prime targets. Custom UI was not on the target list, and from our perspective there was no reason it should have been.

Those who have been around since beta or head-start know about how much has been added to the game since release, and we have seen a LOT of changes over the years, mostly for the better. With many of those changes we saw bugs, and then the fixing of those bugs. In some cases, the bugs themselves never got fixed, but then an underlying system was changed to eliminate the need for a specific bug fix.

So yes, there will be bugs, and some just can't be fixed without some major overhauls due to core design flaws. There are many who just can't grasp this idea, and how nice it must be when those major changes can put to rest some of the bugs that have been around since release.

For a fully customizable UI, a major change to the game code to make the UI be more modular would probably be called for. Things like being able to scale the size of UI elements for example have probably been asked for since release or before that(so the target orb can be made larger on a higher resolution display for example). That is a big task to implement that sort of thing depending on how the code is currently implemented.

Targonis
10-31-2011, 06:27 AM
So.. let's talk about my personal pet peeve. (Well, one of them anyway)

The ladder bug.

No, I'm not talking about the ladders that were accidently broken in one update a while back so that they don't connect in the middle anymore.

I'm talking about the reason that every experienced ddo player I know has to jump to get on a ladder. Any ladder, anyplace... Or sometimes they just rubberband in place at the bottom of the ladder.

Is this a limitation in the game engine? Is it something that only people over a certain amount of latency experience? It's been in the game since the very first day I started playing ddo, and it's been there consistently and reliably ever since, through five different computers on my end.

And yet I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

I've seen it on SOME ladders, but most of them let me just run up to them and start climbing. It could be a latency issue, or something else, but the reason jumping onto the ladder makes sense for many is that climbing tends to be slower than running, so if you can get onto the ladder at a higher or lower point, that saves you some time.

Osharan_Tregarth
10-31-2011, 06:46 AM
I've seen it on SOME ladders, but most of them let me just run up to them and start climbing. It could be a latency issue, or something else, but the reason jumping onto the ladder makes sense for many is that climbing tends to be slower than running, so if you can get onto the ladder at a higher or lower point, that saves you some time.

Yes, all you need to do to successfully climb the ladder is back off and hit it again. But that's not really the point here.

NexEverto
10-31-2011, 07:33 AM
if it is on lama, it will make it to live.

Epic Wand Bracelet being the exception that proves the rule?

Missing_Minds
10-31-2011, 08:28 AM
So.. let's talk about my personal pet peeve. (Well, one of them anyway)

The ladder bug.

No, I'm not talking about the ladders that were accidently broken in one update a while back so that they don't connect in the middle anymore.

I'm talking about the reason that every experienced ddo player I know has to jump to get on a ladder. Any ladder, anyplace... Or sometimes they just rubberband in place at the bottom of the ladder.

That is not the ladder bug. In fact is actually has nothing to do with THE ladder bug, nor is it even ladder related. (Ladders just happen to be the best way to get the issue to occur.)

What you are experiencing is a client server position argument.
The server is saying "no, you can't be there, based on your velocity. You must be here."
The client is going "but I'm climbing up the dam thing!"

Server wins every time.

You can get the same effect jumping around, most repeatable when trying to do the jumps up to the TR orc, the solo in dreaming darkness, wherever you are jumping a lot esp near walls.
You've already proved it yourself, just stop moving and look where the server sticks you. At that point the communication for position is restored and you can climb normally.

Were it actually the ladder, you'd never be able to climb up it, you'd always hitch.

Darkrok
10-31-2011, 08:31 AM
Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html

Did I fix something? I don't fix a thing. I just tell people they are busted.
Exploits- just PM me, Kookie...well, anybody.

Edit...I laugh at you for thinking you are ok with nothing new for a year. You folks are already asking about the next thing! Easy to type, but you all would be raging by Dec. if you knew there was nothing in the pipeline until Nov 2012.
And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never. There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

I'm ready for U14...we'll figure the bugs out when they get here. ;)

BurnerD
10-31-2011, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the update!

I'm glad Turbine is pushing the game in new directions. I may or may not like some of it, but it will offer a wider variety of things to do in the future.

I do think there are certain "well aged" bugs that need to be eradicated... and it sounds like it's on the radar an an action item for 2012. I hope you all can have some success in this area. Perhaps you should enlist a few of the very active and helpful forum posters to prioritize a bug list from the players perspective...

Keep up the good work and thanks again for the weekly updates. While there will always be a few trolls in these threads the majority of the forumites appreciate your effort.

Happy Halloween!

Cleanincubus
10-31-2011, 09:20 AM
*looks at the join date* thought so. Let me tell you, that your statement is a load of garbage. DDO has already been through that before. Update 0 and the last Mod. Do you know how much time passed? 1.5-2 years.

Do you know how many people the game lost because of no new content? We were figuring the game was going to be shut down quite honestly.

So no, new content every 3-4 months for a MMO is near mandatory for it to stay alive any more.

What I'd wish is that they would do MONTHLY patches/bug fixes. I'll take content every 4-6 months. That sort of schedule would make me happy.

You're absolutely right on everything you've said here. I mean, you have to be, just look at your join date. Because a forum join date must mean that date is the first day, or the first time, a person has ever played an MMO before, or a video game in general. :rolleyes:

Apparently you don't spend enough time on the forums to see how many people the game loses after every single update, because of poor decisions and lack of fixing serious issues. Mass amounts of people leaving, because of lack of communication isn't surprising. I'm willing to bet more people would have stuck around, had Turbine actually communicated with the community about what was going on. So that previous situation would be fairly different from them letting us know why no new content isn't being released, and why it's all bug/lag fixes, while still being active on the forums.

Maybe I am in the minority, when it comes to bug fixing vs new content. That's fine, it's just my opinion. But I can honestly say I'd rather see bugs and lag being fixed, instead of content like these new "challenges" (that I got bored with after playing 2 rounds), or the UI changes from U11, or Artificers (instead of Druids).

Osharan_Tregarth
10-31-2011, 11:05 AM
You've already proved it yourself, just stop moving and look where the server sticks you. At that point the communication for position is restored and you can climb normally.

Were it actually the ladder, you'd never be able to climb up it, you'd always hitch.

If I never stop trying to move forward, I never climb the ladder.

It may not be THE ladder bug, but it's definitely A ladder bug. Call it what you will, if it reliably happens on a ladder...

Cauthey
10-31-2011, 11:10 AM
That's why I thought static 20 or 30 minutes for the doors to open in Mabar or the Cove would have been a better alternative. The quest would be available at a reasonable rate in all timezones that didn't depend on the farming of ingredients. Additionally, it would end the speculation of when the doors will open. Sure, the drawback would be that there might not be enough people to do the Spectral Dragon each time, but perhaps a failed attempt is perferrable to no attempt at all.

That's the challenge, though. For Crystal Cove, you could go in there at any time and single man it.

The Spectral Dragon Chamber can not be single-manned. And often, cannot be short manned.

The only solution I could imagine would be to allow additional entries into the Spectral Dragon Chamber, but to gate them with a dynamically updating window (kind of like a quest entry window) that shows how many others are clicked on the window and waiting for the instance. Once you have a minimum number (12, maybe?), it sucks you into the instance. That way you can be protected from not getting a super empty, short-manned instance (which is very frustrating when it happens).

Something like this, perhaps?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/the_elf/Questdoor.jpg

Seikojin
10-31-2011, 11:51 AM
So.. let's talk about my personal pet peeve. (Well, one of them anyway)

The ladder bug.

No, I'm not talking about the ladders that were accidently broken in one update a while back so that they don't connect in the middle anymore.

I'm talking about the reason that every experienced ddo player I know has to jump to get on a ladder. Any ladder, anyplace... Or sometimes they just rubberband in place at the bottom of the ladder.

Is this a limitation in the game engine? Is it something that only people over a certain amount of latency experience? It's been in the game since the very first day I started playing ddo, and it's been there consistently and reliably ever since, through five different computers on my end.

And yet I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.

It is a lag related bug from what I have seen. I dunno how DDO does its packet monitoring, but in some games (quake and many fps' since then) do some decision making for you. They take some assumptions based on your current path and assume you will continue doing said action. If you were running forward and made a hard right, you may see some stuttering. This is because the server assumes your path will maintain, so it starts sending your client updates along those lines. The sudden change of direction conflicts with the assumption and the game has to redraw everything base don your client decision, not the servers assumption.

That is if they do that.

Also, it could still be lag related if there are programmatical 'hooks' that have to link together to switch you from running, jumping, and climbing. If they try to do all three, there could be confusion and you could lose the linkup and get stuck in a little loop. Or there actually could be hook changes that lag out and time out and therefore leave you in a loop. The visual would be the snapping back to point X after climbing/descending a bit.

Programmatically, jump mechanics, running mechanics, and climbing may be fine. But you mix them in the way we players can, and you can create bugs that plague everyone. The fix however may be too deep and can butterfly some serious other mechanical issues.

Jandric
10-31-2011, 11:56 AM
Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html


Shakespeare had it right- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Hey- Possible challenge idea! :)

Cauthey
10-31-2011, 01:07 PM
Shakespeare had it right- "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."

Hey- Possible challenge idea! :)

New mob: Coin Lord Litigator (CR15)

Gotta hit him hard before he begins cross-examination.

Ovrad
10-31-2011, 01:47 PM
New mob: Coin Lord Litigator (CR15)

Gotta hit him hard before he begins cross-examination.

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=5337097)

Dark_Helmet
10-31-2011, 06:59 PM
Because you can't pay non-employees for bug hunting. See: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/492/492177p1.html

That is why the call them contests and typically reward the first person to report a replicatable bug. They are "one time" rewards and not on-going. Anytime you pay someone over time, you fall into that position where they may sue you.


And it would not be bug free. It is a statistical impossibility. Mostly free? Pretty Clean? Sure...bug free...never. There is a reason they are called bugs, squashing them is like trying to kill an cockroach infestation.

You have a large audience of people where some of us work with millions of lines of code who use vastely superior bug tracking products, so forgive us when we don't understand how some of these bugs can possibly reoccur without testing for them.

I guess your code is made to prevent automated scripting, but scripting that replicates actions that were bugged is bread and butter for some of our test departments. We also use loading products to replicate server loads based on replay of data (Examples: Shroud - have a script that bypasses all the portals and run a bunch of Clerics and with auras and their summoned creatures up and down the stairs near the chests in part I. Have an instance with 40 devils agro'd on a party of 12 PMs with lesser auras running in circles. Everyone has full buffs and massive HPs with regeneration going on and just start spawning duplicate instances.)

Montrose
11-01-2011, 06:47 PM
You have a large audience of people where some of us work with millions of lines of code who use vastely superior bug tracking products, so forgive us when we don't understand how some of these bugs can possibly reoccur without testing for them.


I have found that there are certain major corporations who write millions of lines of code and who have very advanced testing procedures. Then there is the rest of the world that is basically in the stone ages.

I remember looking at a StarWest conference to see if I should send any of my people to attend. One topic was "Bug databases - Why they are good". I decided to save our training budget and spend it one something a little more useful...

So, yes, ideally they would have a ton of automation that ran through thousands of regression tests, but even that's not free. You still need people to analyze the failures. You still need people to maintain the test code. You still need people to run the lab automation, set up and hold machines, etc.

Test infrastructure for any sufficiently large program is not cheap. Hiring a horde of teenagers and giving them pizza to find bugs is. Guess which one the pointy-hairs go for?

EarlofPain
11-01-2011, 07:36 PM
I still think of myself as a newb due to the fact there are a dozen plus quests I still haven't tried. All of those are due to the large amount of time it takes to either form a group/or just complete. The idea of challenge area that I can "goof" around in while waiting for a raid group to fill sounds exciting even if it's just tik tac toe. Also the concept of useless reward for each challenge to trade in for guild favor/crafting essences/ or even new cookies (fill that jar dude) would be a bonus. I think Mal is right about sometimes the fun is more important than the loot itself.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-01-2011, 09:12 PM
I have found that there are certain major corporations who write millions of lines of code and who have very advanced testing procedures. Then there is the rest of the world that is basically in the stone ages.

I remember looking at a StarWest conference to see if I should send any of my people to attend. One topic was "Bug databases - Why they are good". I decided to save our training budget and spend it one something a little more useful...

So, yes, ideally they would have a ton of automation that ran through thousands of regression tests, but even that's not free. You still need people to analyze the failures. You still need people to maintain the test code. You still need people to run the lab automation, set up and hold machines, etc.

Test infrastructure for any sufficiently large program is not cheap. Hiring a horde of teenagers and giving them pizza to find bugs is. Guess which one the pointy-hairs go for?

I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace. Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect. I agree we can tighten up on some of the item a breaking and stuff like that, but eyeballs on monitors is the best way to test games.
Think about it, do people say, use a video editor program, and the first night they get it, spend hours trying to break it? Gamers do that. Gamers find bugs for FUN. It is a bit whacky if you think about it.

MRH
11-01-2011, 10:33 PM
Man , here I was waiting for a Major message.... like..... yes in U12 we fixed the hirelings back to how they would only heal the master and would only attack if they were attacked.


/holds breath

Galeria
11-01-2011, 10:40 PM
I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace. Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect.

I am a website usability analyst. It still amazes me how many ways people find to do things that were never intended/never imagined even on simple straightforward websites and minor web applications. And they insist their way is the only logical way and you are ridiculous to suggest they might... read the instructions or look around a little.

It's not just gamers, although gamers might be the only ones that do it for fun.

I agree, nothing points out the issues like random live testers, no matter how thorough your staff/software testers.

cdbd3rd
11-01-2011, 10:48 PM
Re: @ MissingMinds....
Apparently you don't spend enough time on the forums .....


http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/cdemotes/lmao.gif


If you'd've said that to me, I'd've sigged it for sure. :D

quijenoth
11-02-2011, 08:11 AM
I don't get the hate for the ladder bug.

Sure it can be irritating at times, I've had a character dropped from the top to the bottom of a very long ladder on occasion.
My son was thrown onto the ladder in epic snitch just for turning round only to be dumped to the bottom of it as someone pulled the valve! (crispy)

If memory serves me though, DDO was the first MMO to offer vertical climbing and even Everquest II's attempt doesn't complete to how realistic it feels in DDO.


DDOs servers may be an issue - It certainly is the main contributor to what people perceive as unacceptable LAG. But lets get things into perspective. BTW when i say servers I'm referring to EVERYTHING that makes DDO work, cabling, hardware, software, etc.)

As far as I can gather, (and this is my hypothesis not an actual fact so please don't quote me on it as knowing exactly how DDO works.) zones are designed to hold 6 or 12 players maximum - each player interacts with each mob sending different information.
Area Spells create new objects that the servers must interact with, summoning spells create new mobs that interact with existing spells and players and other mobs. and so it goes on - each spell overlapping with another creates more work for the server.
Now with Mabar you still have the same size window of workers but you now increase the player count in that zone to 30 or 40! each casting area spells, summoning monsters and (if dungeon scaling is in place) creating more mobs. At some point the lag will kick in and the servers will have to play catchup to process the information.
To cope it will likely dump what it feels is unnecessary information (such as exact positioning of players and mobs) which results in freezing followed by teleporting to new locations.

The servers, like a business have an initial goal. Over the years that goal may change (as new content is added) but cost restrictions will prevent new servers being used so the old servers become stressed as there work load increases. You can only expand so far until the servers begin to struggle. Mabar Chamber is a perfect example of overworking the servers.

Lets look at it from a business point of view: You employ more staff to carry out the work but eventually your office space will need to be changed as you business grows (offering new products). At that point its a financial decision to invest in larger premises.

You want new stuff, great! but remember without a completely new game with fresh servers its just not cost effective to fix everything to work perfectly. At some point DDO 2 will come about if they feel its financially viable. but DDO 1 will remain as long as that old office still brings in some revenue.

geoffhanna
11-02-2011, 11:27 AM
I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace. Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect. I agree we can tighten up on some of the item a breaking and stuff like that, but eyeballs on monitors is the best way to test games.
Think about it, do people say, use a video editor program, and the first night they get it, spend hours trying to break it? Gamers do that. Gamers find bugs for FUN. It is a bit whacky if you think about it.

I would love to have a conversation about the use of Test Driven Development in large-scale systems if anyone is up for it.

But first, rule 1:
It will seem hard to the programmers and time-consuming to the managers. It is really neither, but it will seem that way, and you will need buy-in to even begin talking about it.

BOgre
11-02-2011, 12:00 PM
Hey Major, not your department, but any word on when the Nov 9th date will hit the forums 'officially'? Or will we get scooped by every media site before getting the official announcement?

maddmatt70
11-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Major, thanks for the posting. Although I appreciate the ambitious approach of DDO developers, it is unclear how succesful challenges will be??? We will see.

I want to comment on Mabar. I personally do not think that it should come back next year. This is not necessarily because of lag or any of the other difficulties associated with Mabar, but rather to keep things new and fresh and to try something new next time around. I trust in the Developers' creativity and feel along with the DDO anniversary Halloween is one of DDO's top holidays. Let the developers come up with something new and creative next Halloween to keep us excited...

Hordo
11-02-2011, 12:51 PM
@ Folks not getting some hate for the bugs: It started out as a nuisance to players (stuff like the ladder bug) but when you keep getting told since Beta that X bug will be fixed and it isn't...it just really eats at some folks.

@ Maj: I wholeheartedly agree that "eyeballs on monitors" is the best way to find bugs and get them noted to be fixed. BUT it should be done before live...before Lama...on Mournlands. There are many of us who have been here since Beta and who have been consistently impressed by what we have and disappointed at the same time because we know what it SHOULD have been if the bugs were not present. No matter how large a group you may have on Mournlands, a gaggle of gibbering yes-men nodding like some geek-ed out bobble-head collection just to keep from being removed from what should be an important role in the games development is not going to do anything with those "eyeballs on monitors." They will nod their heads like the marionettes they are and bugs will go right on through to Lama and live. Get some folks who are willing to put up a fight to make sure that these bugs don't make it even to Lama. Open up Mournlands to some real, knowledgeable DDOers many of whom have been asking for that chance since Beta. That group knows what it will take to both fix the existing game and what to watch for to make sure stuff doesn't break in future releases. Use the resources you have at your fingertips and don't just put us on a shelf like exhibits in a menagerie.

Gratch
11-02-2011, 12:55 PM
I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace. Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect. I agree we can tighten up on some of the item a breaking and stuff like that, but eyeballs on monitors is the best way to test games.
Think about it, do people say, use a video editor program, and the first night they get it, spend hours trying to break it? Gamers do that. Gamers find bugs for FUN. It is a bit whacky if you think about it.

Usually you have devs do sandbox testing (good ones) and sometimes add that test to a build qualification (when possible). On the other end you have the full on testing of QA.

Then in the middle of the API's you probably also have client/server communication blackbox testing that's common for the LotRO/DDO engines.... then you have the actual 3d client itself which probably has its own testing hooks - maybe. Debug hooks running throughout everything (whitebox testing). Do you have a way of putting a larger blackbox test around the entire systems setup? Something that's basically a stats randoms, goes by all the systems rules to create various legal character setups, monster setups with legal equipment setups and then checks to output system stats layer to see what bonuses (attack, damage, speed increase, etc) would result? Or is this all too murky with the actual client render to have a stats-systems black box testing? Just wondering.

Does Eladrin have a black box? :)

I think the most impressive QA setup I've seen was at <LARGE GFX COMPANY> where the same render test, calc vectors and expected results ran on every platform conceivable starting with their flow design language to RTL design to gate design to FPGA implementation to actual device (using both the final frame buffer and then even an HDMI/DVI signal interpreter to check the expected outcome). Same tests from top to bottom. Of course they still get tons of bugs due to the changing landscape of OS'es, Capabilities, Standards, Graphics API's and the ways in which companies use the topside of the graphics API.

BOgre
11-02-2011, 01:49 PM
I don't buy that answer. Whole cloth fabrication. We didn't TRY to break hirelings. We were told they were smarter and wouldn't draw agro when set to defensive. We summoned a hireling, set them to defensive (well, they summoned pre-set to D...) and off they went to try and get killed. The entire 'test' took about 5 seconds. Not to mention any of the other fixes listed in the notes that turned out to be bunk. C'mon 'fess up!

Try this: <feature a> was slated to be fixed and tested, but we dropped the ball. We're sending it back to the drawing board.

Instead of: <feature a> was tested thoroughly but you players pressed a bunch of buttons we didn't expect and broke it.

BOgre
11-02-2011, 02:00 PM
Oh, and if you can SEE that certain players are spending considerable time and effort 'bug hunting' as you put it, and that these certain players often do FIND a great many bugs, and report them, and provide screenshots, and video, and detailed numbers, and stats, and on and on, then why oh why are you not hiring these individuals? Clearly you need them, clearly they enjoy doing the work. At the very least put them in Mournlands. Yeah, we'd know immediately that they'd been placed, since their usual flood of forum activity would suddenly drop to nearly nothing, but what difference does it make? The game needs better 'bug hunters' and they're out there... er, in here... whatever. Stop making excuses.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-02-2011, 04:16 PM
maybe they don't want the job.
maybe they have too many infractions otherwise to be on the test server.
maybe we have hired people from the fanbase in the past and it has gone horribly wrong.

I don't look at my answer as an excuse at all. It is what it is. It is the nature of gaming. Our audience --gamers-- enjoy finding things that break. This has been true on every game I've worked on. Don't take it as a DDO exclusive.

stainer
11-02-2011, 04:22 PM
maybe they have too many infractions otherwise to be on the test server.


You and 404error might consider a probationary period for some of these folks. There is sometimes a disconnect between forum and game.

Thanks for keeping us informed! You are doing great.

gloopygloop
11-02-2011, 04:31 PM
I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace. Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect. I agree we can tighten up on some of the item a breaking and stuff like that, but eyeballs on monitors is the best way to test games.
Think about it, do people say, use a video editor program, and the first night they get it, spend hours trying to break it? Gamers do that. Gamers find bugs for FUN. It is a bit whacky if you think about it.

I understand that gamers do odd things in the game sometimes. But a lot of the bugs that we find are just a straightforward test of reported functionality.

Things like "Ghost Touch now works with handwraps" shows up in the release notes and so we go out with a lootgen Ghost Tough handwraps, a crafted Ghost Touch handwraps and a named Ghost Touch handwraps and smack some incorporeal undead around to see if they now work. That's not too whacky if you think about it.

I will say that things are less rediculous since you took over the helm, but we still have seen things show up in the release notes as "fixed" when they aren't actually fixed and a straightforward functionality test by the players showed that. Thankfully, we no longer have QA folks and devs acting surprised when someone reports a bug on the live servers when that bug was repeatedly reported in Llama-land. I don't think that Turbine's QA efforts have gone far enough yet, but it is getting better.

BOgre
11-02-2011, 04:45 PM
maybe they don't want the job.
maybe they have too many infractions otherwise to be on the test server.
maybe we have hired people from the fanbase in the past and it has gone horribly wrong.

I don't look at my answer as an excuse at all. It is what it is. It is the nature of gaming. Our audience --gamers-- enjoy finding things that break. This has been true on every game I've worked on. Don't take it as a DDO exclusive.

Yes, there are maybe's. I don't see the point in excluding a bug hunter based on infractions, though that doesn't mean there isn't one.

But my point is that there IS a resource for you to use. Right now that resource seems to be the extensive bughunting being done on Lammania, and when I read a comment by you saying that you view Lamma as a preview server and not a test/bughunt server, well that feels to me like you're wasting a valuable tool.

Anyways, thanks for sticking with us in the face of all the criticism. I do appreciate that. Also, I'd love a comment regarding ZAM.com's scoop... please?

Auran82
11-02-2011, 05:13 PM
I applied the first couple of times but gave up because no-one could tell me if I was supposed to reapply every time they asked or if they used past applications. I also have one whole infraction (which expired like 2 years ago) that I got for a joke between friends that someone else took offence to and must have reported me for and I don't know if that excludes me from consideration.

I beta test a couple of other games as well as do it for a living (not in games though) and bug report stuff I see but if my services are not required I wont spend time applying.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-02-2011, 05:44 PM
I know nothing of the Zam.com thing.

Lamannia IS a preview server. I agree. I would love to have a public facing test server, but by Turbine policy...and precedent in legal mumbo jumbo, i can't do that. I can have a preview server, which is better than nothing. Until that changes, Lamannia will be what it is. That said, I have plans to make Lamma land cooler. Stay tuned for my next madcap scheme.

Excluding a bug hunter due to infractions is this: they get to see stuff WAY early. We don't like leaks. It is bad for business, marketing and all that stuff. People who like the limelight seem to be more prone to it. There is a trust..beyond the NDA, that we have to have when showing people stuff really early.

Hordo
11-02-2011, 05:57 PM
Excluding a bug hunter due to infractions is this: they get to see stuff WAY early. We don't like leaks. It is bad for business, marketing and all that stuff. People who like the limelight seem to be more prone to it. There is a trust..beyond the NDA, that we have to have when showing people stuff really early.

Just because some folks like pushing other's buttons when they act like dybbyks does not mean that they won't abide by an NDA. Some of us "limelighters" beta test other games with NDAs and still don't mention doodly that we are not supposed to. Your argument hold no merit whatsoever. Having a capable Alpha Testing group is much more important than bobble-heads just nodding accord when they should be pointing out errors.

Dandonk
11-02-2011, 06:04 PM
Regarding infractions: Some of the more active people here may have had 1 infraction in 5 years and 10k posts. Does that mean they're like the "limelight"?

That people are active here would suggest to me that they care about the direction the game is taking, and thus would be the very people it would be good to have trying out stuff.

Infractions do not equal untrustworthy, IMO. But I suppose it's easier to have a set criteria... it's jsutu that, IMO, it excludes an important and competent set of testers.

maddmatt70
11-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Regarding infractions: Some of the more active people here may have had 1 infraction in 5 years and 10k posts. Does that mean they're like the "limelight"?

That people are active here would suggest to me that they care about the direction the game is taking, and thus would be the very people it would be good to have trying out stuff.

Infractions do not equal untrustworthy, IMO. But I suppose it's easier to have a set criteria... it's jsutu that, IMO, it excludes an important and competent set of testers.

Exactly. If somebody posts enough they will eventually pick up infractions especially if they do not sugarcoat things. I would imagine there is the rare heavy poster like say cupcake that likely has 0 infractions, but its the internet what have you. I have 4 infractions myself not that I would make a good tester or anything, but I imagine there are some folks just like me who would make excellent testers...

Dark_Helmet
11-02-2011, 07:07 PM
I've worked both in games and out. Nothing matches the unpredictability of game testing...except aerospace.
I agree...and the lessons learned in dealing with aerospace coding can be applied to gamers. The rigid code of require flight path and constraints (rules of the game) vs "unpredictable" environmental factors (gamers themselves).


Players do unpredictable things.Automation does not deal with that. Automation only deals with what you tell it to expect. I agree we can tighten up on some of the item a breaking and stuff like that, but eyeballs on monitors is the best way to test games.

Predictive analytics are done to generate "random" possibilities based on past recorded behavior. It isn't 100%, but the risk profile is greatly reduced by replay of previous anomolies that are confirmed not to reoccur as well as common offshoots based on past behaviors. This doesn't preclude the "eyeballs", yet frees them up to test even more unpredictable behavior. It isn't just rocket science after all. ;)


Think about it, do people say, use a video editor program, and the first night they get it, spend hours trying to break it? Gamers do that. Gamers find bugs for FUN. It is a bit whacky if you think about it.
That was the part of Open Source Software that companies didn't understand: People will gladly look for bugs just to get their names listed. You don't have to pay them as employees. Companies value the code more than their developers. If they understood that making the code open source they can spend more on development and less on bug testing makes a better product (unless there are developers who are smarter out there and make a better product).

gloopygloop
11-02-2011, 07:30 PM
I know nothing of the Zam.com thing.

Lamannia IS a preview server. I agree. I would love to have a public facing test server, but by Turbine policy...and precedent in legal mumbo jumbo, i can't do that. I can have a preview server, which is better than nothing. Until that changes, Lamannia will be what it is. That said, I have plans to make Lamma land cooler. Stay tuned for my next madcap scheme.

Excluding a bug hunter due to infractions is this: they get to see stuff WAY early. We don't like leaks. It is bad for business, marketing and all that stuff. People who like the limelight seem to be more prone to it. There is a trust..beyond the NDA, that we have to have when showing people stuff really early.

One of the problems with excluding people who have infractions is that the people who have infractions are the ones who will stand up and call someone a ******* when they're being a *******. Excluding people who have too many infractions cuts out the people who are best able to call a spade a spade and point out shortcomings and pitfalls in future quests/classes/

Things like the new Holy Avenger longsword that drops in VoD on Elite. It's pretty. It's shiny. And it ends up doing negative DPS because it strips debuffs and DoTs off of bosses when you swing it. Somehow, no one pointed that out (or it was pointed out, but no one actually stood up and said, "Seriously you guys, you can't put this ***** weapon in the game. All it's going to do is act as a noob detector for looking up Paladins on my.ddo").

It's Turbine's server. Turbine sets the rules. That's your perrogative. But many of the decisions that Turbine makes really seem like secrecy is more important than actually having a good game. I don't understand that. And that includes both the Mournlands "no perceived naughtiness alowed" policy as well as things like Turbine's refusal to publicly say
A: trading TP for items is allowed,
B: trading TP for items is forbidden or
C: trading TP for items is still under discussion and no decision has been made yet
...as well as many other examples.

BOgre
11-02-2011, 08:06 PM
I know nothing of the Zam.com thing.

Zam.com thing (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=28156)

Zam.com thing as it stands on the boards (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4154638)

In a nutshell, the media was given Nov 9 as the U12 release date, while the forum has had no official announcement (it's now day ZAM+2 without official word).

Zengar
11-02-2011, 09:13 PM
Yelling at, or even yelling to, MajMalphunktion is not really going to help anyone out here.

A lot of the thing people are complaining about are not his department. He can and should bring them to the attention of those in the proper departments, if he has not already in the past done so, but it would be simply a bad idea for him to come on to a public forum like this and not go along with the official policy even if he dis-agreed with it in private. If the legal department decided that the lawsuit precedent was too risky and the CEO accepted their opinion, even if he argued in person to allow rewards for finding bugs, (I'm not saying he did, I have no knowledge one way or the other) then he would be wise to come on these boards and say that the lawsuit is the reason there are no rewards and then not allow himself to be drawn into further argument.

It would be the same if marketing decided that forum infractions meant to great a risk of leaks. It is not QA's decision to make as to whether marketing's opinion is correct. They can argue in an internal meeting for or against the merits of a rule like that, but once it has been decided a good employee is going to tell the public "this is company policy" and not "I'm sorry but this is stupid". Not that I am saying that this particular policy is stupid, I could see the argument that the majority of infraction recipients are a risk for leaks and that the exceptions could be be provided with, well, exceptions on a case by case basis. Or maybe not, I am not a Turbine employee, I am not a beta tester here, and I don't have any infraction, so I have no way of knowing what their actual policy might be.



TLDR; If someone decides to be a public face for a company, they are going to tell you company policy regardless of whether they like it themselves or even might be trying to change it internally. Otherwise, they don't work there for very long.

Solmage
11-02-2011, 09:37 PM
Just because some folks like pushing other's buttons when they act like dybbyks does not mean that they won't abide by an NDA. Some of us "limelighters" beta test other games with NDAs and still don't mention doodly that we are not supposed to. Your argument hold no merit whatsoever. Having a capable Alpha Testing group is much more important than bobble-heads just nodding accord when they should be pointing out errors.

But if you can't get your point across right now without insulting every single current tester, is that someone you would hire/want to work with?

Also, you may think someone's awesome, but if someone can't abide by simple rules of civility, what makes you think that someone will abide by the rules of not using the knowledge for personal gain/private exploits among a tight-knit group?

knightgf
11-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Until that changes, Lamannia will be what it is. That said, I have plans to make Lamma land cooler. Stay tuned for my next madcap scheme.



Looking forward to it. Maybe for once ill actually have a little motivation to try Lamannia.


maybe they don't want the job.
maybe we have hired people from the fanbase in the past and it has gone horribly wrong.



The former is, at the moment, how I feel about Lamannia. Beta test something with no reward that carries over to live? Nah. The latter though is curious. I have a hunch people tried to sue you over it, they didn't perform to Turbine's expectations, or other lawsuits showed up, hence why it has gone horribly wrong.

Maybe, I'll say, maybe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8DkyIMVK1E&feature=related).

Jahmin
11-03-2011, 02:40 AM
Excluding a bug hunter due to infractions is this: they get to see stuff WAY early. We don't like leaks. It is bad for business, marketing and all that stuff. People who like the limelight seem to be more prone to it. There is a trust..beyond the NDA, that we have to have when showing people stuff really early.

I generally just skip over the silliness of your excuses, but this takes the cake. The problem is not with the people posting and getting infractions; the problem is with the people giving them. You want us to take you seriously as Quality Assurance and you go on at length about your qualifications, yet the forum ‘moderators’ were hired for their ability to plan parties.

The mediocre moderation has directly led to the general malaise of these forums, by those that sold out the very community that supported them. ‘Infractions’ are mocked and worn as badges of honour and a rite of passage.

YOU limiting your testers because a ‘moderator’ thinks female underwear is sexual explicit or does not know the difference between their, there and they're is pretty much as dumb as the infractions are.

The game is rated Teen. When we had real moderation the forums were a vibrant community. Stop thinking that the problem is people trying to limelight and realize where the problem actually is.

Frankly I have great difficult relating your stated qualifications and goals with what you actually post. The complete disconnect is sadly typical turbine :(

Razcar
11-03-2011, 06:50 AM
Zam.com thing (http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=28156)

Zam.com thing as it stands on the boards (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4154638)

In a nutshell, the media was given Nov 9 as the U12 release date, while the forum has had no official announcement (it's now day ZAM+2 without official word).
Maj is the head of the testers. You are barking up the totally wrong tree. So give the guy a break and please stop asking him about the Turbine Marketing department's decisions.

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 07:03 AM
Maj is the head of the testers. You are barking up the totally wrong tree. So give the guy a break and please stop asking him about the Turbine Marketing department's decisions.

I agree with Razcar that Maj is not the person that we should be complaining to.

However, the people that we *should* complain to on the forums (Tolero and Cordovan and Fernando and whoever took Victorie's former position) have been hiding recently, so Maj is all we have.

It's unfortunate that people (myself included) bring our issues to the only official Turbine people who show up to talk to us, but the biggest reason for that is that the official Turbine people who we should talk to don't show up in threads often enough.

mystafyi
11-03-2011, 07:08 AM
I would love to have a public facing test server, but by Turbine policy...and precedent in legal mumbo jumbo, i can't do that.
I do feel sorry for you in this regard. awful hard to do your job when your hamstrung by turbine policy. the number 1 best way to find bugs and balancing issues is by using the user base.

We don't like leaks. It is bad for business, marketing and all that stuff.
I realize this, but buggy software is also bad for business. I guess I should just accept the fact fernando piaz doesnt believe players will leave his game for any reason. (as he said at pax)

mystafyi
11-03-2011, 07:11 AM
However, the people that we *should* complain to on the forums (Tolero and Cordovan and Fernando and whoever took Victorie's former position) have been hiding recently, so Maj is all we have.

I noticed the senior community rep is now developing content. thats prolly why.
as for fernando, he doesnt talk to wallets ;)

Razcar
11-03-2011, 09:35 AM
I agree with Razcar that Maj is not the person that we should be complaining to.

However, the people that we *should* complain to on the forums (Tolero and Cordovan and Fernando and whoever took Victorie's former position) have been hiding recently, so Maj is all we have.

It's unfortunate that people (myself included) bring our issues to the only official Turbine people who show up to talk to us, but the biggest reason for that is that the official Turbine people who we should talk to don't show up in threads often enough.

I can both understand and sympathize with that. But if we swamp him (Maj) with questions, requests and criticism about things he can do nothing about, we might "loose" him.

Apparently (as they've said themselves) the DDO staff - of course apart from the Community Reps - have no "Customer Interaction" listed in their work deliverables. So they don't have to talk with us, and only do so if they feel like it. (I heard a rumor that when WB took over they wanted the devs to communicate more but that was obviously false.)

And while I would love to have some devs here (or even Marketing people, like B. Ogre wants to address in his posts) discussing all kinds of hows and whys like Codog used to do (and no, we don't need any whens), we don't. They don't have to talk to us, and there's nothing we can do about it - no picket signs saying "we are the customers" etc. will change that. ("Being nice to the devs" won't help since we are thousands of people, not one person. There will always be some that are unhappy.)

Maj does provide very valuable information about current bugs and QA (and football :) ), and that's great. Let's not chase him into the same dungeon as where the DDO developers are hiding.

Flavilandile
11-03-2011, 09:49 AM
I can both understand and sympathize with that. But if we swamp him (Maj) with questions, requests and criticism about things he can do nothing about, we might "loose" him.


I know you know Razcar *grins*.
But for all the rest of the pack, think about it a minute, it could be really really worse in the communication department. It could be what we endured in the hands of CM in Europe. So as Raz said, be nice to the Kobold, he is doing a great job talking to us.

If we have complains, requests, querries that are not QA related we should put them through Tolero and Cordovan.
WE can nag the Kobolds ( Kookie and Maj ) all we want when it comes to QA related things, but the rest should be dispatched appropriately to the right persons.

BOgre
11-03-2011, 09:58 AM
(or even Marketing people, like B. Ogre wants to address in his posts)

It's not just that. It's about cohesion, it's about the bigger picture, open communication, professionalism, and a whole lot more. Maj is here talking to us because he l ike the idea of talking to us, brought it to the attention of someone who could make that call, and then got tasked with the admittedly unhappy job of doing it. On TOP of his regular job description. I've thanked him for it. And though it seems like I'm on his case, I'm really in his corner. See, he didn't even know about the ZAM article. And if I was in his place, that is if I'd been tasked with talking to the players, and if the Tolero's and Cordovan's and whoever elses in my company were 'in hiding' as you put it, and I was suddenly faced with a situation like this one. I'd be pretty angry. I'd be going to my bosses and asking why the heck _I_ wasn't notified that the release date was out. I'd be demanding some better INTERNAL communication, so that I could do my own job better and not get caught flat footed the next time.

What people here seem to commonly forget is that when we (yes, I mean WE, I'm not the only one) complain, and whine and ask questions that can't be answered under current policy, is that we're trying to help. We see something wrong and point it out so that it can be discussed and maybe fixed. Siding with the apologists, taking it in stride, getting used to it, and all the other complacent nonsense does nothing but tell Turbine that mistakes are OK. You think I spend a couple hours of my free time every day reading and writing on here just to see my name in print? Sure, some ppl are like that, but for them there's Twitter. The whiners and complainers here love the game; spouting off is our way to contribute to the health of the game.

Missing_Minds
11-03-2011, 10:05 AM
It's not just that. It's about cohesion, it's about the bigger picture, open communication, professionalism, and a whole lot more.

translation... You want McDonalds. Your way right away.

And you know what? That is fine. You are completely entitled to your opinion. Just as we are to our own.

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 10:12 AM
translation... You want McDonalds. Your way right away.

And you know what? That is fine. You are completely entitled to your opinion. Just as we are to our own.

I'd be happy to just get someone to come out and say that we're not getting it our way. What we get most of the time now is dead silence. I'm not asking for McDonalds (that slogan belonged to Burger King, by the way). I'm just asking that someone be available to answer our questions when we have them - even if the answer to our questions is "no" or "we don't have a final decision on that yet".

It's not fair to Maj that we end up asking him these things, but it's also not fair to us as players that he and occasionally MadFloyd are the only ones who are willing to be open with us on a semi-regular basis.

MrkGrismer
11-03-2011, 10:35 AM
(it's now day ZAM+2 without official word).

If you got to Za-hadum, you will die...

Sorry, just popped into my head. Means nothing... I assure you.

Zenako
11-03-2011, 11:19 AM
Pretty darn sure that if there is actually a release date set, that QA is more than aware of that date. What he might not be in the loop about would be the public disclosure of that date. Turbine is a large enough company that it is not hard to see the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing sometimes. It is also still small enough that those hands should be able to get together and work things out when needed.

Thanks Maj for the closest thing we have had to the old posts from the devs from the years before the deep dark void engulfed all things knowledge....Plus you add a nice bit of humor and hometown Pats rooting on top...

Please play a better game this week guys...that was a sadly ineffective performance against the Steelers last week. (Looked like you did not read the memo that the bye week was over already...sigh)

Missing_Minds
11-03-2011, 12:02 PM
I'd be happy to just get someone to come out and say that we're not getting it our way. What we get most of the time now is dead silence. I'm not asking for McDonalds (that slogan belonged to Burger King, by the way). I'm just asking that someone be available to answer our questions when we have them - even if the answer to our questions is "no" or "we don't have a final decision on that yet".

It's not fair to Maj that we end up asking him these things, but it's also not fair to us as players that he and occasionally MadFloyd are the only ones who are willing to be open with us on a semi-regular basis.

Oops. Guess that show how much fast food I've been eating for me to forget who actually had that slogan.

Please remember there is a complete difference between "willing to be open" and "having the time to be open". The Developers are paid to work, i.e. create content, fix bugs, draw new scenes, etc. as their job entails. I don't know of any developer that actually has "peruse the forums, and keep an active presence" as part of their responsibilities. They have stated this in the past and players always seem to forget a developer has no responsibility to be showing up here no matter how much players may demand it.

I think it may have been A_D (and I apologize if I'm wrong.) that stated that it should be part of their responsibilities if they want to actually create content that players want. Well, that opens up a different topic honestly. But the bottom line is they aren't paid to do that, so it doesn't matter what opinions we have. They have to do what gets them paid so they can provide for their own families. I don't think any of us would argue that one.

Also players have the habit of taking anything spoken as "The Word" and equates it to "Not Going To Change." When in reality, things do change, and they are giving their best responses which can be over ruled by higher ups. What then? Players revolt, there is nothing the dev can do, dev leaves forums.

Between work responsibilities and this, is why they don't post like they used to. Now mind you, this says nothing about the lack of monthly informational updates, greater than a year postings of the state of the game, etc.


If you got to Za-hadum, you will die...
Sorry, just popped into my head. Means nothing... I assure you.

Great.. make me think of the B5 intro that was riddled with quotes. What was that.. season 3? 4? I forget. Really should pick that up on dvd at some point.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-03-2011, 02:10 PM
Pretty darn sure that if there is actually a release date set, that QA is more than aware of that date. What he might not be in the loop about would be the public disclosure of that date. Turbine is a large enough company that it is not hard to see the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing sometimes. It is also still small enough that those hands should be able to get together and work things out when needed.

Thanks Maj for the closest thing we have had to the old posts from the devs from the years before the deep dark void engulfed all things knowledge....Plus you add a nice bit of humor and hometown Pats rooting on top...

Please play a better game this week guys...that was a sadly ineffective performance against the Steelers last week. (Looked like you did not read the memo that the bye week was over already...sigh)

I know what the 'proposed' release date is. I won't know the release date until my team approves the build. It is not my place to say anything like an official release date. Sorry.

Yes, I don't pay a too much attention to what websites are reporting what at this point in a release.

Pats defense is not statistically in the top 10 worst of ALL TIME. Even playing as bad as they did, a good team would have beaten the Pats by 40, not by 7 or 8 whatever it was. Do be fooled Steelers nation, you guys still kinda stink. See you in the playoffs.

BOgre
11-03-2011, 02:17 PM
I know what the 'proposed' release date is. I won't know the release date until my team approves the build. It is not my place to say anything like an official release date. Sorry.

Yes, I don't pay a too much attention to what websites are reporting what at this point in a release.

Good to know, and thanks for the clarification. For me, this issue isn't about what's being reported, but what's being said by Fernando (this here, and last time was Arti-unlock), versus what your team is being told, versus what we're being told.

It's interesting to note, that Fernando cites Nov 9 as 'the' release date to the media, who then reports it as such, when in truth there are still steps to be taken before the real date can be known...

So bottom line is that the ZAM article is discredited, and a hole in internal comms needs to be addressed? Or am I oversimplifying, or reading more into what you've said than was intended?

Missing_Minds
11-03-2011, 02:26 PM
So bottom line is that the ZAM article is discredited, and a hole in internal comms needs to be addressed? Or am I oversimplifying, or reading more into what you've said than was intended?

The latter. The world is not black and white which is how you are seemingly trying to paint it.

People are doing the best they can with tools/information they have.

The 9th is the scheduled/target date and is what Fernando/ZAM have publicly announced. Final QA acceptance has not yet happened, so the date is not firm. The build can (and has in the past) failed, pushing back release dates.

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 03:03 PM
Please remember there is a complete difference between "willing to be open" and "having the time to be open". The Developers are paid to work, i.e. create content, fix bugs, draw new scenes, etc. as their job entails. I don't know of any developer that actually has "peruse the forums, and keep an active presence" as part of their responsibilities. They have stated this in the past and players always seem to forget a developer has no responsibility to be showing up here no matter how much players may demand it.

I don't have a problem with any of that. I think that it's delightful that the developers occasionally come to the forums and I'm thrilled that Maj comes here fairly often.

It would be nice if the community specialists also spent some time answering questions too, though.


I think it may have been A_D (and I apologize if I'm wrong.) that stated that it should be part of their responsibilities if they want to actually create content that players want. Well, that opens up a different topic honestly. But the bottom line is they aren't paid to do that, so it doesn't matter what opinions we have. They have to do what gets them paid so they can provide for their own families. I don't think any of us would argue that one.

They do have some people who are paid to do that, though. Unless they eliminated those positions.


Also players have the habit of taking anything spoken as "The Word" and equates it to "Not Going To Change." When in reality, things do change, and they are giving their best responses which can be over ruled by higher ups. What then? Players revolt, there is nothing the dev can do, dev leaves forums.

But when no one from Turbine can even publicly say, "we know that you have questions about [x] and we don't yet have a final answer for you. please know that we are still considering the issue and that we haven't forgotten about you," that really does speak volumes about their attitude toward the game's players. Especially when it's about issues that will end up getting players banned if Turbine decides that the answer is "no" like trading TP for items/items for TP.

There are people at Turbine who are paid to be community support. MajMalphunktion shouldn't end up as the only one shouldering our questions.

mystafyi
11-03-2011, 05:53 PM
Final QA acceptance has not yet happened, so the date is not firm. The build can (and has in the past) failed, pushing back release dates.

LOLOLOL are you serious? The only way QA could stop a patch/update from hitting live servers would be if there was something involved that would harm the database in some way.
Sorry but even Maj would agree that you are Missing_Minds ;)

Steiner-Davion
11-03-2011, 07:02 PM
Spoken like someone who was not here during the dark ages after Mod 8, leading up to the Free to Play Announcement and the legal issues with Atari!


You're absolutely right on everything you've said here. I mean, you have to be, just look at your join date. Because a forum join date must mean that date is the first day, or the first time, a person has ever played an MMO before, or a video game in general. :rolleyes:

Apparently you don't spend enough time on the forums to see how many people the game loses after every single update, because of poor decisions and lack of fixing serious issues. Mass amounts of people leaving, because of lack of communication isn't surprising. I'm willing to bet more people would have stuck around, had Turbine actually communicated with the community about what was going on. So that previous situation would be fairly different from them letting us know why no new content isn't being released, and why it's all bug/lag fixes, while still being active on the forums.

Maybe I am in the minority, when it comes to bug fixing vs new content. That's fine, it's just my opinion. But I can honestly say I'd rather see bugs and lag being fixed, instead of content like these new "challenges" (that I got bored with after playing 2 rounds), or the UI changes from U11, or Artificers (instead of Druids).

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-03-2011, 08:23 PM
LOLOLOL are you serious? The only way QA could stop a patch/update from hitting live servers would be if there was something involved that would harm the database in some way.
Sorry but even Maj would agree that you are Missing_Minds ;)

Not true. That is the part you don't see.

Aashrym
11-03-2011, 08:44 PM
Not true. That is the part you don't see.

That just makes me curious what criteria you would use to not approve the release. ;)

MRH
11-03-2011, 09:19 PM
I would use the Cooking criteria....

Is it ready for the consumer ? Is it good ? Is it complete ? Is the cake full of bugs?

If you answered Y , Y , Y , N then it is ready for release :>P

If you answered N, Y, N, Y then just release it along with a release note to the table for the customer with whats wrong with the cake.


Seriously tho , Maj can you please let us know that the hirelings are gettin fixed LOL ! Back to pre 3 updates ago.....

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-03-2011, 10:26 PM
That just makes me curious what criteria you would use to not approve the release. ;)

Rational thought usually.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-03-2011, 10:29 PM
I would use the Cooking criteria....

Is it ready for the consumer ? Is it good ? Is it complete ? Is the cake full of bugs?

If you answered Y , Y , Y , N then it is ready for release :>P

If you answered N, Y, N, Y then just release it along with a release note to the table for the customer with whats wrong with the cake.


Seriously tho , Maj can you please let us know that the hirelings are gettin fixed LOL ! Back to pre 3 updates ago.....

Hirelings no longer rage and run into the breach.

Aashrym
11-03-2011, 10:49 PM
Rational thought usually.

I approve of this approach. I would hate to think the new turbine has this new and innovative approach because the old turbine based such things on irrational thoughts though. ;)

I was more curious if it's actually happened and what kind of things would trigger it. It would be pretty sweet to respond to QA bashers with, "Look what could have happened...."

Sounds like an interesting 'what if' thread.

AZgreentea
11-03-2011, 10:53 PM
Hirelings no longer rage and run into the breach.
Aw! But think of the lines you could add to the things hirelings say!


'Forward, the Hirelings!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hirelings.

MRH
11-03-2011, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the update Maj !

We do appreciate with everthing you have going on, you at least come on the forums and give us some feedback and chime in on various threads !

looking forward to U12 ! Stackable bolts !! Plat bank ! and fixed hirelings yay !

Gimpinator
11-04-2011, 12:10 AM
Rational thought usually.

You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introduced. It almost feels like you're digging your own grave.. As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event.. Hold fast for seven minutes while I dig this jewel up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4148716&postcount=1



Mabar- I promise it will be better next year.

...

Go Pats!

grandeibra
11-04-2011, 05:22 AM
You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introducedThe opposite is true. In the old days, the first week(s) of new mods were more like beta. Quests went down and came back up, bugs were found, hotfixes were implemented after a week etc.


NOwadays, the releases are pretty solid, although not as big as I would like :)

Symar-FangofLloth
11-04-2011, 05:57 AM
As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event..

Wow, you've played Mabar in 2012 already?
Is it any better? Any loot there that would make me actually play it for a change?
:rolleyes:

Cauthey
11-04-2011, 06:19 AM
You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introduced. It almost feels like you're digging your own grave.. As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event.. Hold fast for seven minutes while I dig this jewel up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4148716&postcount=1

It is this kind of dogged "promise enforcement" that usually chases Devs and QA staff away from the forums. :( If you hold them to ever letter and every word, they will simply stop giving us ANYTHING to chew on.

They want to communciate with us. But I bet, as it is, they're already agonizing over their typed posts before clicking Submit. Don't be this way, please. Don't chase away our beloved MajMalphunktion! :(

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-04-2011, 06:50 AM
You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introduced. It almost feels like you're digging your own grave.. As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event.. Hold fast for seven minutes while I dig this jewel up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4148716&postcount=1

More buggy? Um...no. I see the data, you do not. Trust me, there is more found and fixed going out the door now than ever before. I'm not patting my team on their crystal carrying backs, but what you *don't* see FAR outweighs what you do see.

Mabar is not coming back anytime soon.

Satinavian
11-04-2011, 06:59 AM
As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event..

Wasn't that the promise to make it better next year ? As in 2012 ? Sound plausible to me.

Also even this Mabar seemed better than the last. While still people complained about lag, (which a single person can't measure to a statistically significant extend) i heard not a single thing about auto-bans this year. Which was the main complaint the last time iirc.

BurnerD
11-04-2011, 08:00 AM
"Mabar- I promise it will be better next year."

reading comprehension ftw.......


You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introduced. It almost feels like you're digging your own grave.. As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event.. Hold fast for seven minutes while I dig this jewel up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4148716&postcount=1

Razcar
11-04-2011, 08:25 AM
The opposite is true. In the old days, the first week(s) of new mods were more like beta. Quests went down and came back up, bugs were found, hotfixes were implemented after a week etc.


NOwadays, the releases are pretty solid, although not as big as I would like :)
That is true. Compare this launch of two raids to the launch of (single raids in their corresponding Modules) Abbot and Titan.

gloopygloop
11-04-2011, 08:42 AM
You would possess a better argument if updates and patches didn't get progressively more sloppy as they were introduced. It almost feels like you're digging your own grave.. As a matter of fact, let me start with a promise you've recently made regarding a specific Mabar event.. Hold fast for seven minutes while I dig this jewel up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4148716&postcount=1

I think that Turbine still has a lot of room for improvement (and I think that Maj would agree with that assessment), but they have improved significantly in the past year. The known issues list is better maintained. Bugs are acknowledged. QA and devs no longer sound surprised when someone mentions a bug that has been reported repeatedly in Llama-land and in live. Old bugs still rear their ugly head, but those old bugs generally get squashed in a reasonable-ish amount of time.

The biggest indicator (to me) that things are getting better is that you could not abandon the LoB and MA raids after finishing them the way that you could with Colonscope up until 11.1. Turbine has improved their process. It's a slow improvement, but the improvement is there.

Cyr
11-04-2011, 08:47 AM
That is true. Compare this launch of two raids to the launch of (single raids in their corresponding Modules) Abbot and Titan.

That is true. Those two raids were disasters.

However, having played back then also I know that we traded one type of bug (instance specific) for another type (game stability and performance). Sadly the game has gotten dramatically worse since EU released in the stability and performance departments.

That said, I'm not exactly sure that crystal cove and mabar are not disasters in the realm of the titan (nothing beats the abbot though that is king for buggy junk design). It is also worth noting that the occurance of game wide bugs that prevent completion of quests or hamper them seem to be rising. These seem to have less to do with specific instance design and more to do with things going haywire overall. Oh and unlike the old days when in the rare case you had this happen in a random dungeon and it would take all of five minutes for a GM to correct the issue for you now you are SOL nine times out of ten.

sephiroth1084
11-04-2011, 09:30 AM
Oh and unlike the old days when in the rare case you had this happen in a random dungeon and it would take all of five minutes for a GM to correct the issue for you now you are SOL nine times out of ten.
GMs have gotten much worse to the point of not only being all but completely useless, but also rude and heavy-handed.

Honestly, I kind of wish Turbine would just get rid of the GM tool completely, as that at least would save many players a lot of frustration and would avoid a bunch of unnecessary bans being handed out.

Targonis
11-04-2011, 09:43 AM
What many people just don't seem to grasp is WHY bugs might be introduced. The more systems type of changes are added, the more of a chance that bugs will be introduced. New content that does not differ much from existing content will generally have fewer problems than content that adds new trap types or game mechanics that we have never seen before.

Most of you were not around back when the game first launched, so you don't know just how many new things have been added to the game, it is far more than just the list of stuff in the release notes. Just compare the adventures from the original launch to the adventures we have seen added in the past few updates.

Darkrok
11-04-2011, 09:56 AM
Oh and unlike the old days when in the rare case you had this happen in a random dungeon and it would take all of five minutes for a GM to correct the issue for you now you are SOL nine times out of ten.

I can't comment about the number of bugs. I can say that even on things like Eye of the Titan bugging the GM response is either late or unhelpful, like you said, 9 times out of 10.

I'm the type that likes to give support the opportunity to do their job. If a Titan bugs out? I put in a ticket. When our eDA won't spawn the end boss because (conjecture here) there's an Artificer in our group with his puppy out? I put in a ticket.

Around the time of the F2P release those tickets got responded to within minutes and the GM would fix it (bugged Misery's Peak comes to mind). Now? I haven't had a single ticket resolved successfully in a timely fashion in the last year. I had a Titan that went over 20 minutes on the ticket until we finally gave up. Got the response about 3 minutes after I'd left. Had an eDA that took well over 20 minutes to get a response. The GM then took another 10-15 minutes trying to figure out what to do, then spawns the FIRST boss for us and when questioned about it said that was all he could do, have a nice day.

None of this has anything to do with the QA department of course...just bringing it up here because it was mentioned. I honestly think QA's doing a better job. They're at least communicating now, bugs that have been in the game for years are starting to if not get fixed at least be acknowledged, there's just a feel like QA wants bugs fixed. GM's? I get the feeling that they want the ticket closed as quickly as possible, resolution or no. I don't have a view behind the scenes as to whether that's training, staffing, my own tin foil hat, or what. It's just the impression I get.

Razcar
11-04-2011, 09:57 AM
That said, I'm not exactly sure that crystal cove and mabar are not disasters in the realm of the titan (nothing beats the abbot though that is king for buggy junk design). It is also worth noting that the occurance of game wide bugs that prevent completion of quests or hamper them seem to be rising. These seem to have less to do with specific instance design and more to do with things going haywire overall. Oh and unlike the old days when in the rare case you had this happen in a random dungeon and it would take all of five minutes for a GM to correct the issue for you now you are SOL nine times out of ten.
I agree, maybe the DDO game engine is starting to buckle under the weight of almost six years of updates. I cannot put that blame at the door of QA though, they cannot be held responsible for all the dust and junk that might have accumulated in the DDO machinery over the years.

And I refuse to believe that Abbot and Titan were playtested to completion when they were released. Maybe the testers at the time poked their noses in there, sniffed around a little and then left thinking that the players would "sort it out", but I cannot see how they could have tested those raids with real characters and completed them. Especially Titan who was so buggy it made you understand why the Quori lost. As compared to the Cannith raids that work great out-of-the-box while still having fights with fairly complicated phases and turns.

Eladiun
11-04-2011, 10:13 AM
Mabar is not coming back anytime soon.


For this I'll give you a virtual Good Game.

sephiroth1084
11-04-2011, 10:20 AM
The impression that I've gotten from reading dev comments about bugs and their systems for 4 years is that the game engine was not designed initially to adapt well to big changes, that is, it wasn't designed to allow for modularity. So every time the devs introduce something new or try to make a change to the underlying functionality of the game, it involves quite a bit of effort in simply trying to shoehorn it into the existing code.

Now, I may be wrong about that, and I could have been right at one time (and I'm no programmer), but that's the impression I've come away with from reading these forums for a few years.

Kraki
11-04-2011, 10:42 AM
And I refuse to believe that Abbot and Titan were playtested to completion when they were released. Maybe the testers at the time poked their noses in there, sniffed around a little and then left thinking that the players would "sort it out", but I cannot see how they could have tested those raids with real characters and completed them.

There is a big difference between going in and doing focus testing where you follow a script or at the least a fairly tight set of parameters and what we as players end up doing inside a quest where we're making it up as we go. It's difficult to guess the outcomes of hundreds of players going "Now what!" and diving in.

If you remember, we had NO clue when we first entered that raid area. "Oh look, you can target those pillar things...someone go kill them! Hmmm nothing happened. Hey, where are those other pillars on target?" "Why did it fall THAT direction?!!?" etc

We were beating on it like mad monkeys for as long as we could keep alive on pots and CSW wands and then hiding in the wf area throwing stacks of rez scrolls. That being the case, I'm not surprised that some of what we did wasn't anticipated.

Kraki

slimkj
11-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Mabar is not coming back anytime soon.
I realise it has Halloween links but I do wonder why when there seems to be reuse of other events more liberally. Feel sorry for anyone rolling a new monk or PM between now and Oct 2012 is all.

sephiroth1084
11-04-2011, 11:27 AM
I realise it has Halloween links but I do wonder why when there seems to be reuse of other events more liberally. Feel sorry for anyone rolling a new monk or PM between now and Oct 2012 is all.
Yeah...I'd be down with Mabar coming up again for 1 week somewhere around April, with at least a 1 month buffer in either direction between events (ie, no moving from Crystal Cove or Risia right into Mabar or vice versa).

CC comes up more often, I think, because it isn't holiday themed and offers attractive gear to a much wider audience. That said, access to the Epic Robe of Shadow and Wraps of Endless Light is something I feel should be a little more regular than once a year for new Pale Masters, and monks, respectively. That the Shroud of the Abbot has gotten a nice upgrade, and is lower ML, and that we're finally starting to get some new, interesting and powerful handwraps makes this slightly less important, but not irrelevant.

ericrd
11-04-2011, 11:46 AM
any news on when more of the recipes that are in the cannith crafting guide are going to be in game ?

Terminus-Est
11-04-2011, 01:53 PM
Coming into the Mabar event this year, having never participated before, I was conditioned to expect a couple of things.

1. Server-crushing, raid-killing lag.

2. Little to no ability to control who I raided with.

3. Scarcity of specific components (Lich Dust).

At the end of the event though, on the back of 5 for 5 successful completions and plenty of non-Mabar related quest running, my opinion of the event was raised noticeably.

1. I didn't get hit with lag, in or out of the event.
It's easy to say that I am just an exception; but the fact that there is an exception is superior to a server-wide blanket of lag death, isn't it? I found the CC to be a laggier event then Mabar, on the whole.

2. Creating a group prior to the raid opening and coordinating entering allowed me to get my party in the same instance as long as we were in the same level range. Yeah, having only half-feedback from the minimap is a down-grade from every other raid, but it is better than it was in the past, neh? By aggressively coordinating on the general chat and dispersing my party-members to the various locations, I was able to ensure a minimum of coverage that got me the win every time and in a quick manner to boot.

3. Running as a 17-18 (I leveled up during the event, doing other things), I had a fairly hard time generating Lich Dust. In large groups with 20s, they would spawn, but I wasn't guaranteed a dust from a kill. On my own I had a hard time soloing them and they were very rare. In the end, I pulled one dust throughout the event and bought two others for reasonable prices. Just how much platinum is an epic item worth? Exactly. Scarce though it may have been, I was able to buy it with platinum earned off of a non-capped toon, not needing to dip into my main characters stash of PP.

Yeah, Mabar could have been better. I'm guessing that next year, it will be, as we have been promised. And I suspect that it was a lot better then it was last year. Isn't that how things should be? Better every time? **** yeah.

BOgre
11-04-2011, 02:57 PM
I had decent time in Mabar as well. Made 2 pairs of wraps for my monk, one for now, one for down the road, and an epic cloak for my ranger. Of the runs I was in, only one was a slideshow, which we somehow won, another was so-so laggy, which we lost, and 2 more were smooth and quick. Farming worked best when in a full raid party.
My complaints with it are the same as my complaints for most of the content I've run past lvl 14: caster-centric. A melee character has become less and less useful in the late game, and in these events the caster/melee gap is even more accentuated.

Cleanincubus
11-04-2011, 10:59 PM
Spoken like someone who was not here during the dark ages after Mod 8, leading up to the Free to Play Announcement and the legal issues with Atari!

You're right, I wasn't around at that time. During that time, I didn't even know DDO was a game, I thought it was some sort of online resource for D&D. My join date, is in fact close to my game join date (adding another month or 2 to it). But as I've said, that doesn't mean I have no clue about the situation, or at the very least, similar situations.

Here's an example for you. Early '06 I started playing a game called SOCOM 3, for the playstation 2, religiously (8-18 hours a day, every single day). Soon after SOCOM: Combined Assault was released, which was more of an added campaign, rather than a entirely new game (both played on the same server and S3 maps were included with the S:CA game). To make a long story short, it took a year and 2 months for the developer to release an update (the final one), while the community manager would post on the official forum once every month or 2 to something alone the lines of "We're working on it, but I can't say anything more than that." Among the major fixes of that patch was fixing the vehicles that would become invisible during the game. For a 3rd person shooter, getting spawn camped for over a year, with invisible 1-shot-kill tanks and vehicle turrets, was obviously beyond annoying. The hardcores stayed (or went back to playing the older games in the series), but most left, going from up to 60K players at peak hours to 6K within a month or 2.

So yes, just because I haven't been playing this game for as long as many of you, I do in fact understand what a year without new content would mean. I'd prefer to have a game with less "lag"/latency issues, no more wiped ingredients bags transferred from shared bank spaces, no more quest items or enemies not spawning that cause a quest fail, buggy & grindy events, hirelings that get worse with every "adjustment", etc, etc, than more new quests or classes or races that no one even asked for. I realize not everyone agrees with me, and that's cool. But don't pretend like DDO is the only game out there to ever have content or developer communication issues.