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Tsuarok
10-27-2011, 08:02 PM
I don't really test stuff in Lamannia, but I would like to know a few things. From the release notes:

The effect attached to Ten Thousand Stars has changed:
Ten Thousand Stars
Benefit: Activate this ability to enter a trance for 30 seconds (or until you become uncentered) that gives you a chance to throw multiple shuriken at a time. Wisdom increases your chance for additional projectiles and increases the potential number of additional projectiles. This ability will work with bows if you have the Zen Archery feat, but Manyshot and this ability cannot be used at the same time.

Just wondering if anyone has tested this out to determine it's cooldown (if any) and the number of extra arrows shot/chance for extra arrows, and would like to share their results.

Thanks,
Tsuarok

WielderofGigantus
10-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Also, any idea if it stacks with Shuriken Expertise?

Tsuarok
10-27-2011, 09:40 PM
It would be nice if the investment in zen archery allowed you to get ki and use strikes with your bow... I mean, it's great that you're giving monks some options, but it just doesn't have that monk feel if you're not using your strikes.

Rumbaar
10-27-2011, 10:48 PM
Are shurikens still like throwing paper weights at enemies?

TreknaQudane
10-27-2011, 11:32 PM
Are shurikens still like throwing paper weights at enemies?

No, you might damage someone with a paper weight.

Jay203
10-28-2011, 11:28 AM
No, you might damage someone with a paper weight.

haa xD

Elaril
10-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Anyone know if this shares the same cooldown as manyshot?

ColsonJade
10-28-2011, 12:00 PM
Buff length: 30 seconds
Cooldown: 1 Min

Failedlegend
10-28-2011, 01:23 PM
You may not be able to use the monk strikes (hopefully they fix that) but double dipping with both ten thousand stars and manyshot might be interesting, mostly making for a shorter down time.

Something like this (Nothing is in any particular order)

Half-Elf for AA + Decent enhancements
Monk 12 for tier 3 stances, NS2, Abundant Step and other that other Monk goodness
Fighter 1 Mostly for an extra feat
7 Wiz for Extra Feats, Blue Bar Pre-Req for AA, 4th level spells (mostly for death aura but you get a handful of useful buffs) and Zombie Form (+2 Str/Con, Dr5/Slashing, 100% Fort, Healed by Neg energy..death aura, boon of undeath etc, a slew of immunties)

Note: The Attack speed slow down of Zombie form does NOT effect ranged combat only melee)


H-Elf Monk12/Wiz7/1Fighter NS2/PM1/AA

Stats
Str 14
Dex 16 +1 (Lvl) + 2 Tome = 19 Base = IPS
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

4 Lvl ups left to put in Wis and/or Str (I'd likely put em in Wis as Str it stupid east to increase)

Main Stat: Str(Damage, Carrying Capacity) Wis (AC, Special Abilities, To-hit, Will Save) Secondary: Con (HPs, Fort Save) Tertiary: Dex (Reflex Save, AC)

Monk
1 Zen Archery
2 Toughness
3 Dodge

HE
1 Cleric Dilly (Swap to Rogue Dilly once UMD is high enough)

Normal
1 Bow Strength
2 Point Blank Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 Precise Shot
5 Improved Precise Shot
6 IC: Ranged
7 WF: Ranged

Fighter
1 Manyshot

Wiz
1 Mental Toughness
2 Extend

Skills: Concentration, UMD & w/e

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 01:33 PM
You may not be able to use the monk strikes (hopefully they fix that) but double dipping with both ten thousand stars and manyshot might be interesting, mostly making for a shorter down time.

Something like this (Nothing is in any particular order)

Half-Elf for AA + Decent enhancements
Monk 12 for tier 3 stances, NS2, Abundant Step and other that other Monk goodness
Fighter 1 Mostly for an extra feat
7 Wiz for Extra Feats, Blue Bar Pre-Req for AA, 4th level spells (mostly for death aura but you get a handful of useful buffs) and Zombie Form (+2 Str/Con, Dr5/Slashing, 100% Fort, Healed by Neg energy..death aura, boon of undeath etc, a slew of immunties)

Note: The Attack speed slow down of Zombie form does NOT effect ranged combat only melee)


H-Elf Monk12/Wiz7/1Fighter NS2/PM1/AA

Stats
Str 14
Dex 16 +1 (Lvl) + 2 Tome = 19 Base = IPS
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

Main Stat: Str(Damage, Carrying Capacity) Wis (AC, Special Abilities, To-hit, Will Save) Secondary: Con (HPs, Fort Save) Tertiary: Dex (Reflex Save, AC)

Monk
1 Zen Archery
2 Toughness
3 Dodge

HE
1 Cleric Dilly (Swap to Rogue Dilly once UMD is high enough)

Normal
1 Bow Strength
2 Point Blank Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 Precise Shot
5 Improved Precise Shot
6 IC: Ranged
7 WF: Ranged

Fighter
1 Manyshot

Wiz
1 Mental Toughness
2 Extend

I have a 12/6/2 Half-elf AA monk/ranger/fighter. This is a better split in my opinion because you get four more feats, because of all the free ranger feats... This allows you to get TWF, ITWF, and GTWF along with all ranged feats you listed above, and with an extra feat left over (I took Stunning Fist, and Paladin Past-Life instead of Extend)

Feats (Granted):
Bow Strength
TWF
ITWF
Rapid Shot
Many Shot

Feats(Taken):
1 - Ranger - Weapon Focus: Ranged
2 - Monk - Toughness
3 - Monk - Stunning Fist , Past-Life Paladin
4 - Ranger
5 - Ranger
6 - Ranger - Zen Archery
7 - Ranger
8 - Ranger
9 - Fighter - Mental Toughness, Point Blank Shot
10 - Monk
11 - Fighter - Improved Critical: Ranged
12 - Monk - GTWF
13 - Monk
14 - Monk - Dodge
15 - Monk - Precise Shot
16 - Monk
17 - Monk
18 - Monk - Improved Precise Shot
19 - Monk
20 - Monk


Your idea for a palemaster wizard splashed with monk is an interesting idea though...

Right now, my guy does manyshot for 30 seconds then switches to melee... I will try out the Ten Thousand Stars... My guy is wisdom-based, so it might be effective... I love the idea of going from 25% ranged/75% melee to 50/50...

Failedlegend
10-28-2011, 01:35 PM
I have a 12/6/1 Half-elf AA monk/ranger/fighter. This is a better split in my opinion because you get four more feats, because of all the free ranger feats... This allows you to get TWF, ITWF, and GTWF along with all ranged feats you listed above, and with an extra feat left over (I took Stunning Fist, and Paladin Past-Life instead of Extend)

Feats (Granted):
Bow Strength
TWF
ITWF
Rapid Shot
Many Shot

Feats(Taken):
1 - Ranger - Weapon Focus: Ranged
2 - Monk - Toughness
3 - Monk - Stunning Fist , Past-Life Paladin
4 - Ranger
5 - Ranger
6 - Ranger - Zen Archery
7 - Ranger
8 - Ranger
9 - Fighter - Mental Toughness, Point Blank Shot
10 - Monk
11 - Fighter - Improved Critical: Ranged
12 - Monk - GTWF
13 - Monk
14 - Monk - Dodge
15 - Monk - Precise Shot
16 - Monk
17 - Monk
18 - Monk - Improved Precise Shot
19 - Monk
20 - Monk


Your idea for a palemaster wizard splashed with monk is an interesting idea though...

Right now, my guy does manyshot for 30 seconds then switches to melee... I will try out the Ten Thousand Stars... My guy is wisdom-based, so it might be effective... I love the idea of going from 25% ranged/75% melee to 50/50...

Your build is good for people who plan to melee as mine has well none..Personally I prefer a purely ranged character and the immunities, 100% fort, +2 Str/Con and awesome self-healing (from aura and cleric dilly/umd for inflict/harm stuff) are nothing to sneeze at...besides the more active ranged characters we have the more the Devs might think hmmm...people like this maybe we should get around to fixing it...ie. making monk abilities work with ranged or giving ranged tactics,etc.

It would be nice if ranged got to the point where Rangers were OP due to having access to both...than maybe they'll be more in line with PnP and actually have to choose what to specialize in exchange for more spells and an effective pet (we all know the arty homunculus is a trial run for other companions)

Edit: Oh also Melf's Acid Arrow has no save so its nice to combine with porous soul which is required for Ninja Spy anyway

Edit2: ummm...why did I get neg rep for this...what forum rule did I break so I can fix it

Symar-FangofLloth
10-28-2011, 04:14 PM
Your build is good for people who plan to melee as mine has well none..

It costs Ki to use TTS.
You don't get Ki unless you melee.

voodoogroves
10-28-2011, 04:43 PM
It costs Ki to use TTS.
You don't get Ki unless you melee.

Best bet is Earth Stance and just get hit a lot ;-)

EDIT: Which you want for the crit multiplier on your Bow of Sinew anyway, right?

Failedlegend
10-28-2011, 04:59 PM
Best bet is Earth Stance and just get hit a lot ;-)

EDIT: Which you want for the crit multiplier on your Bow of Sinew anyway, right?

Thats my plan at least.


It costs Ki to use TTS.
You don't get Ki unless you use ki weapons.

Fixed that for you...Zen Archery makes Long/Short Bows generate Ki

Diyon
10-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Thats my plan at least.



Fixed that for you...Zen Archery makes Long/Short Bows generate Ki

Incorrect. Shuriken are ki weapons, and you do not get ki using them. Neither do you with bows with the feat. A ki weapon doesn't mean you get ki using it, it means it doesn't uncenter you.

Dark-Star
10-28-2011, 06:11 PM
Thats my plan at least.



Fixed that for you...Zen Archery makes Long/Short Bows generate Ki

I can confirm that this is absolutely false.

Habreno
10-28-2011, 06:12 PM
And GL using it with Manyshot. The two are mutually exclusive.

Yan_PL
10-28-2011, 06:34 PM
And GL using it with Manyshot. The two are mutually exclusive.
you can't use them at the same time... but who told you you can't alternate timers?

Munkenmo
10-28-2011, 06:57 PM
I can confirm that this is absolutely false.

I too will confirm this is false, but add the caveat that when in earth stance you do still generate ki when getting hit.

wax_on_wax_off
10-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Yeah, 12 monk (NSII) / 6 ranger / 2 fighter, arcane archer, half-elf with rogue dilettante is a pretty awesome looking build.

How does the timeline for manyshot/10k stars look like?
0: Open with manyshot
20: 10k stars
50: melee
80: 10k stars
110: melee
120: manyshot
(repeat)
(perhaps opening with 10k stars will be better for aggro issues)
(going to want quickdraw too)

So, 20 seconds of manyshot, 1 minute of 10k stars, 40 seconds of melee. Looks fun to me. Next trick is to work out what the proc rates of 10k stars is (to determine whether it is better to invest in strength or wisdom from a pure DPS standpoint).

Dark-Star
10-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Next trick is to ...

...fit in all the feats you want/need. While not impossible, it requires sacrifices.

Aganthor
10-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Are shurikens still like throwing paper weights at enemies?

Guess it all depends on what you use for paper weight ;)

Doxmaster
10-28-2011, 07:43 PM
Guess it all depends on what you use for paper weight ;)

I use a shuriken.

Now what?

Arianrhod
10-28-2011, 07:53 PM
Guess it all depends on what you use for paper weight ;)

Maybe they misspoke, and meant "paper clips" not "paper weight"? ;)

maddmatt70
10-28-2011, 08:07 PM
...fit in all the feats you want/need. While not impossible, it requires sacrifices.

Bah..
Fighter 1: Precise Shot.
Fighter 2: Improved Precise shot.
Monk 1: toughness
Monk 2: Zen Archery
Monk 6: Power Attack.
1st Level: weapon focus Range
3rd Level: mental Toughness
6th Level Point Blank Shot
9th Level: Greater Twf
12th Level: Crit Range.
15th Level: Crit Bludgeon.
18th Level: Stunning Fist or Improved Sunder or Past life Pally... You could also swap bludgeon out..I have also played around with shield mastery and going with a ranged tank..

Failedlegend
10-28-2011, 08:25 PM
I can confirm that this is absolutely false.

Two things:

1. If thats true is Not WAI and needs to be fixed.

2. Have you tried this on Lamanian (at work cant check myself)

Tsuarok
10-28-2011, 09:01 PM
Buff length: 30 seconds
Cooldown: 1 Min

Thanks, +1

Symar-FangofLloth
10-28-2011, 09:09 PM
Two things:

1. If thats true is Not WAI and needs to be fixed.

2. Have you tried this on Lamanian (at work cant check myself)

Checked it out myself, because of some other people getting excited over it. Ranged/Throwing weapons do not generate Ki, and AKAIK never have. No matter what feats you have.

t0r012
10-28-2011, 09:14 PM
Interesting.
Anyone check and see if the shadow star from stk is still bugged on Lam?
Last week on live it was still critting on 17-20.
Junk weapon but wide crit range and lots of str with 10k and expertise might work decent.

MrkGrismer
10-31-2011, 01:37 PM
As an aside I have been kiting Chester in Acute Delirium around the beholder's belly with shuriken. I would not recommend it if you have any other option tho. ;)

Hurak
10-31-2011, 05:53 PM
Bah..
Fighter 1: Precise Shot.
Fighter 2: Improved Precise shot.
Monk 1: toughness
Monk 2: Zen Archery
Monk 6: Power Attack.
1st Level: weapon focus Range
3rd Level: mental Toughness
6th Level Point Blank Shot
9th Level: Greater Twf
12th Level: Crit Range.
15th Level: Crit Bludgeon.
18th Level: Stunning Fist or Improved Sunder or Past life Pally... You could also swap bludgeon out..I have also played around with shield mastery and going with a ranged tank..

My main toon is a 12M/6Ra/2F so I can provide comment on the feat distribution. The main factor effecting the build is your stat distribution. For my toon, I initially built for Str, enough Dex for IPS and Wis for stunning fist (DC39 at the time). For epics and any raids above normal, I was finding I couldn't get the Dex high enough for multi to land consistently. In the end, I dropped IPS, bumped up my Wis with the now spare dex points so that my stun DC is now 42 and I hit consistently in Epics with ranged, granted, only one target at a time.

Now if you didn't want to build for stunning fist using Wisdom, why would you take zen at all? You probably wouldn't.

BananaHat
10-31-2011, 09:15 PM
First, as far as I could tell, you get either 1 or 2 bonus arrows/shuriken with thousand stars. I was seeing between 1-3 hits.

Second, shuriken expertise does seem to stack, I'm pretty sure I saw a volley of 4 hit at one time with a shuriken throw and thousand stars going.

Third, with improved precise shot, all targets in the lines were getting hit with the same number of hits. So, it picks a number of shots per pull of the bow to hit everyone in a line. Makes sense.

Fourth, when you activate it, it lasts for 30 seconds (1 minute cooldown) and it also activates a 30 second cooldown on manyshot to ensure there is no stacking. It costs 20 ki.

I did not record numbers for the shuriken, I just stuck with a bow for recording to not muck up the numbers with shuriken expertise.

Ok, so some testing numbers:

With 33 wisdom and a bow
1 hit: 83 times (41.5%)
2 hits: 90 times (45%)
3 hits: 27 times (13.5%)

With 27 wisdom and a bow (I was getting bored so numbers are lower)
1 hit: 20 times (30.7%)
2 hits: 40 times (61.5%)
3 hits: 5 times (7.7%)

So, overall I flung 72% (344/200) more arrows with 33 wisdom and 77% (115/65) more with 27 wisdom. Obviously, a larger test sample is needed but I had no test dummy and kiting guys around the vale got real boring. Considering you can keep this up about half the time if you have the ki, that isn't too bad.

thousand stars
72% increase * 50% uptime = 36% more dps with a bow (if you fit in 6 levels of monk to take it)

vs.
manyshot
300% increase * 16.6% uptime = 50% more dps

So yeah, take both and go nuts. The speed on my test monk made kiting a bit easier, even though she had really bad gear (+1 bow, ha!).

Tsuarok
11-01-2011, 12:24 AM
First, as far as I could tell, you get either 1 or 2 bonus arrows/shuriken with thousand stars. I was seeing between 1-3 hits.

Second, shuriken expertise does seem to stack, I'm pretty sure I saw a volley of 4 hit at one time with a shuriken throw and thousand stars going.

Third, with improved precise shot, all targets in the lines were getting hit with the same number of hits. So, it picks a number of shots per pull of the bow to hit everyone in a line. Makes sense.

Fourth, when you activate it, it lasts for 30 seconds (1 minute cooldown) and it also activates a 30 second cooldown on manyshot to ensure there is no stacking. It costs 20 ki.

I did not record numbers for the shuriken, I just stuck with a bow for recording to not muck up the numbers with shuriken expertise.

Ok, so some testing numbers:

With 33 wisdom and a bow
1 hit: 83 times (41.5%)
2 hits: 90 times (45%)
3 hits: 27 times (13.5%)

With 27 wisdom and a bow (I was getting bored so numbers are lower)
1 hit: 20 times (30.7%)
2 hits: 40 times (61.5%)
3 hits: 5 times (7.7%)

So, overall I flung 72% (344/200) more arrows with 33 wisdom and 77% (115/65) more with 27 wisdom. Obviously, a larger test sample is needed but I had no test dummy and kiting guys around the vale got real boring. Considering you can keep this up about half the time if you have the ki, that isn't too bad.

thousand stars
72% increase * 50% uptime = 36% more dps with a bow (if you fit in 6 levels of monk to take it)

vs.
manyshot
300% increase * 16.6% uptime = 50% more dps

So yeah, take both and go nuts. The speed on my test monk made kiting a bit easier, even though she had really bad gear (+1 bow, ha!).

Great data, +1 and thanks for testing.


The numbers seem odd. I'd think that an increase in wisdom should net you a clear increase in DPS. Whatever formula they use seems to have a good amount of deviation. Not that you haven't done enough already, but the portal in vale does provide a nice practice dummy if you're interested in getting more data.

All in all though, it does look like a nice boost to bow damage. And if wisdom has little effect, it would simplify the build choices.

wax_on_wax_off
11-01-2011, 01:18 AM
First, as far as I could tell, you get either 1 or 2 bonus arrows/shuriken with thousand stars. I was seeing between 1-3 hits.

Second, shuriken expertise does seem to stack, I'm pretty sure I saw a volley of 4 hit at one time with a shuriken throw and thousand stars going.

Third, with improved precise shot, all targets in the lines were getting hit with the same number of hits. So, it picks a number of shots per pull of the bow to hit everyone in a line. Makes sense.

Fourth, when you activate it, it lasts for 30 seconds (1 minute cooldown) and it also activates a 30 second cooldown on manyshot to ensure there is no stacking. It costs 20 ki.

I did not record numbers for the shuriken, I just stuck with a bow for recording to not muck up the numbers with shuriken expertise.

Ok, so some testing numbers:

With 33 wisdom and a bow
1 hit: 83 times (41.5%)
2 hits: 90 times (45%)
3 hits: 27 times (13.5%)

With 27 wisdom and a bow (I was getting bored so numbers are lower)
1 hit: 20 times (30.7%)
2 hits: 40 times (61.5%)
3 hits: 5 times (7.7%)

So, overall I flung 72% (344/200) more arrows with 33 wisdom and 77% (115/65) more with 27 wisdom. Obviously, a larger test sample is needed but I had no test dummy and kiting guys around the vale got real boring. Considering you can keep this up about half the time if you have the ki, that isn't too bad.

thousand stars
72% increase * 50% uptime = 36% more dps with a bow (if you fit in 6 levels of monk to take it)

vs.
manyshot
300% increase * 16.6% uptime = 50% more dps

So yeah, take both and go nuts. The speed on my test monk made kiting a bit easier, even though she had really bad gear (+1 bow, ha!).

Awesome, +1.

Regarding the 30 second cooldown that you mentioned that activating 10k stars gives to Manyshot will it impact the ability to tag team both of these abilities? Does activating manyshot give a cooldown on 10k stars? Does the cooldown stack with an already in place cooldown?

BananaHat
11-01-2011, 06:21 PM
Awesome, +1.

Regarding the 30 second cooldown that you mentioned that activating 10k stars gives to Manyshot will it impact the ability to tag team both of these abilities? Does activating manyshot give a cooldown on 10k stars? Does the cooldown stack with an already in place cooldown?

When you activate one, it activates a cooldown on the other equal to its duration.

MS = 20 sec cooldown on TS
TS = 30 cooldown on MS

Prevents stacking, which is intended. You can string them back to back nicely. Activating TS while MS was on cooldown didn't seem to cause any problems.

wax_on_wax_off
11-01-2011, 07:10 PM
Ok, I just posted this in another thread but it's more appropriate to be here:



Still, what it will come down to for me is determining the DPS difference of wisdom vs strength investment assuming that you always hit on a 2. Presumably at some level of gear wisdom investment will give a better return on ranged DPS.

Perhaps the formula is something like this:
base 50% chance to proc a second arrow modified by +/- 1% for every point of wisdom modifier
base 0% chance to proc a third arrow modified by +1% for every point of wisdom modifier

If this was the case then each point of wisdom modifier would give +2% ranged DPS, 50% of the time which makes it a comparable DPS increase as a strength investment. Then it is just a trick to sum up the other pros and cons of each option (+AB for ranged/melee, +AC, +DC, +Will, +melee damage etc).

Anyone want to offer an alternative theory on what the formula might be, refute it, test it or provide an easy strategy to test it?

Off the top of my head, if someone can make a 6 wisdom warforged on Lama and level it to 6 you should never see a third arrow/shuriken proc while using 10k stars.

TiranBlade
11-02-2011, 01:05 AM
Are shurikens still like throwing paper weights at enemies?

I know a few days late but, it's more like throwing paper clips rather than paper weights.

rakhtal
11-02-2011, 06:28 AM
If you take master water stance thats +1 passive ki generation. Not sure what the cost for 10000 stars is, but it might help. Also adds to attack bonus with zen archery (although that probably works only with bows).