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Lord_Darquain
10-27-2011, 12:51 PM
Firstly, thank you both for the changes and for defining exactly what values each stance bring to the table.

Please define the bonus types for each bonus and penalty both in the release notes and in-game so we know what stacks with what.

Please define other monk bonus types like the AC bonuses they receive repeatedly as they level. (These bonuses do not seem to stack with "armor bonus" from, say, monk items like Jidz-Tet'ka).

Please define the named bonuses for attack speed, doublestrike, incite, healing amp etc. from things like items, buffs, and other class features so we know what stacks with what just by browsing enhancements, spells, potions, gear, etc. while in-game.

Please consider renaming the "bonus that stack" different names to avoid confusion and to have a core rule that NO bonuses of the same name stack.

For example:

+1 exceptional bonus to Cha (stay the same)
+2 exceptional bonus to Cha (becomes +2 epic bonus to cha)

Dodge bonuses become:
+1 dodge bonus (stay same so as not to stack with feat, define feat as +1 dodge bonus to AC)
+2 sidestep bonus
+3 raid bonus
+4 epic bonus

All guild buff bonuses become "guild bonus" to _______ if they stack with other sources as they seem to. Guild buffs that stack with other guild buffs should have a second named bonus. I don't care if it's a "kobold bonus to AC" as long as there are clear rules IN-GAME, not in the compendium or on a random loading screen.

Shade
10-27-2011, 01:22 PM
Please consider renaming the "bonus that stack" different names to avoid confusion and to have a core rule that NO bonuses of the same name stack.


um thats already the rule. No exact like name effects stack in ddo. Well atm only true for non-weapons, as weapons function differently (which is considered a bug), but otherwise 100% true.

Stacking: Only 3 types stack:
Dodge bonuses are meant to stack per pnp, so they do in ddo.
Exceptional explicitly state so in there description.
Untyped also stack.

Nothing else does. It's not too confusing.

What confusing is some (well a LOT) of descriptions are wrote incorrectly. The naming conventions are fine.

Diyon
10-27-2011, 01:57 PM
Dodge bonuses are meant to stack per pnp, so they do in ddo.


This is only mostly true. In PnP, dodge bonuses stack, end of line. In DDO dodge bonuses stack, EXCEPT if they are from an item and the numerical value is the same, UNLESS its added from the alchemical ritual, in which case, it goes back to stacking.

I'm not even sure if I got all the details right there. Does a +Y dodge from X class stack with a +Y dodge from Z class? I have no clue. As there are odd rules for it and I haven't made an AC character.

In anycase, point was that dodge doesn't completely follow PnP here, and isn't very clear cut from looking at it, or simply understood by a simple rule.

The rest of what you said is accurate, I agree.

hockeyrama
10-28-2011, 06:09 AM
dodge bonus from enhancements stack with dodge bonuses from items. Example the stalwart dodge bonus stacks. So it is fair to assume that the monk dodge bonus now would stack as well as it is not from an item.

glowbug
10-28-2011, 04:07 PM
most of the stacking rules are easy... but it gets complicated when the wording is fuzzy or the bonus comes from non item sources.

1. Does the Dodge bonus from Water stance stack with the Dodge bonus from SD / DoS defender stance (and does that mean only if its +3 & +2, or can you stack +3 from SD-II and +3 from Water-II)

2. Does the Natural Armor bonus from Mountain stance stack with the +3 natural armor from abashi set? (I ASSUME it stacks with Bark and ship buffs.. but who knows)

Diyon
10-28-2011, 04:18 PM
most of the stacking rules are easy... but it gets complicated when the wording is fuzzy or the bonus comes from non item sources.

1. Does the Dodge bonus from Water stance stack with the Dodge bonus from SD / DoS defender stance (and does that mean only if its +3 & +2, or can you stack +3 from SD-II and +3 from Water-II)

2. Does the Natural Armor bonus from Mountain stance stack with the +3 natural armor from abashi set? (I ASSUME it stacks with Bark and ship buffs.. but who knows)

Number 1 is a key question I'd like to know.


Number 2- Natural armor in PnP is a bit weird too. Magic items/effects that give natural armor do not stack with each other. However, they do stack with base (inherent? natural? So natural natural?) natural armor bonuses. For example, a Troglodyte has a natural armor bonus. They get barkskin cast on them or put on an amulet of natural armor, their AC gets both full bonuses. A human puts on an amulet of natural armor, and has barkskin cast on them, they get the highest of the two. A druid wildshapes into a form with a natural armor bonus and casts barkskin on themselves (or has an amulet with a wildling clasp), they get both full bonuses.

Kinerd
10-28-2011, 06:24 PM
There are too many bonus types for the new Earth AC bonus and not enough for the Wind double-strike. My advice is to take the "Insight" out of Earth and put it back in Wind. The DDO stacking rules are counter-intuitive enough, as evidenced by the million threads made by people asking what stacks, we don't need to start combining bonus types.

allaanon
10-28-2011, 06:29 PM
Yeah, I don't understand what the +3 insight natural armor bonus from Mountain will stack or won't stack with. Most abilities I have on my characters stack if something is coming from an item and an enhancement. So will the +3 stack with +4 heightened awareness on the alchemical air tier 1? Will it stack with +5 natural armor from a pirate's hat? etc...

Tsuarok
10-28-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah, I don't understand what the +3 insight natural armor bonus from Mountain will stack or won't stack with. Most abilities I have on my characters stack if something is coming from an item and an enhancement. So will the +3 stack with +4 heightened awareness on the alchemical air tier 1? Will it stack with +5 natural armor from a pirate's hat? etc...

It'll stack with everything. As of now it there are no other insight-natural sources of AC.







Probably because it is a completely nonsensical prefix.

Lord_Darquain
10-29-2011, 11:37 AM
um thats already the rule. No exact like name effects stack in ddo.

[here's a list of things with the same bonus name that stack]

You contradict yourself just as the game contradicts itself.

Also, just because Dodge bonuses break core rules for bonuses in pnp doesn't mean they should stay that way in DDO.

And renaming the different valued exceptional bonuses to different bonus names says everything the paragraph of description says without requiring the paragraph of description.

Lord_Darquain
10-29-2011, 11:42 AM
I'm not even sure if I got all the details right there.


assume


it gets complicated when the wording is fuzzy or the bonus comes from non item sources.

...

ASSUME

...

but who knows


So Yeah, Devs, please define ALL bonuses by name so we know at a glance how they stack and please change the few things that would need it so that there can be a clear core rule that bonuses of the same name NEVER stack.

Lord_Darquain
10-29-2011, 11:46 AM
insight natural bonus


Probably because it is a completely nonsensical prefix.

I assume that is a case of mistype.

I would hope it's not insight so it stacks with alchemical Air tier 1 wraps. I would hope it's not natural so it stacks with barkskin OR many items OR the artificer barkskin for WF monks.

Lord_Darquain
10-29-2011, 02:29 PM
Back to monks specifically:

1) I'd also like to know what the bonus type is for the AC bumps they get as they level. It seems to show up as an "armor bonus" and therefor doesn't stack with armor bonuses from spells or gear, including monk-specific gear like Jidz Tet'ka and apparently-monk-themed gear like Siren's Belt.

2) It would be nice if the Warforged Tactics enhancement line applied to all Monk DCs as something to offset the fact that most monk and wf immunities overlap. It seems to currently apply to none of the monk DCs, including the ones like Stunning Fist that are just the monk versions of the combat feats the description references.

TreknaQudane
10-29-2011, 03:11 PM
I assume that is a case of mistype.

I would hope it's not insight so it stacks with alchemical Air tier 1 wraps. I would hope it's not natural so it stacks with barkskin OR many items OR the artificer barkskin for WF monks.

If you look at Barkskin (and now Toughen Construct) they grant an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor.

So the new monk stance would be an Insight Bonus to Natural Armor. They both add together to be a Natural Armor Bonus but they are separate sub channels.

They're both Natural Armor increase but different types of Natural Armor.

Lord_Darquain
10-29-2011, 06:55 PM
If you look at Barkskin (and now Toughen Construct) they grant an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor.

So the new monk stance would be an Insight Bonus to Natural Armor. They both add together to be a Natural Armor Bonus but they are separate sub channels.

They're both Natural Armor increase but different types of Natural Armor.

Yeah, I was going to post the same thing after looking them up.

I have an issue with the way these are worded and the fact that their stackiness is obviously unclear on first read.

To make things simpler, I wish barkskin, etc. were "natural bonuses" to AC and "insight bonuses to natural armor" were instead "flaygan bonuses" to AC where flaygan is replaced with some new word not used elsewhere in the game.

Kinerd
10-31-2011, 04:02 PM
For instance, "Earth stance" type bonuses.

Talias006
11-01-2011, 07:50 AM
You contradict yourself just as the game contradicts itself.

Also, just because Dodge bonuses break core rules for bonuses in pnp doesn't mean they should stay that way in DDO.

And renaming the different valued exceptional bonuses to different bonus names says everything the paragraph of description says without requiring the paragraph of description.

1st line: Perhaps he does, but in reference to the game, it is what it is.

2nd line: Dodge bonuses do NOT break core rules as the core rule is Dodge bonuses stack.

3rd line: After deciphering the gibberish jargon, I understand what you mean, but it's not that hard to think of the layers that already exist work just fine for most people.
I've explained the difference in values to several dozen people over the years, but they got it too when explained properly.