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xTethx
10-26-2011, 01:06 PM
Dropped from the sidechest, not the main one. Didnt have as many pulls as I had wanted, but no one bothered joining me :(

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp56/teth_01/ScreenShot00115.jpg

AmatsukaIncarnate
10-26-2011, 01:12 PM
Note the typo for the fortification...
but i guess its a pretty cool item if you don't want to slot insight 4 on your GS weapons...but for most AC builds, I don't see this replacing chattering ring...

but i like that they're updating older raids with some fresh stuff!

Shade
10-26-2011, 01:13 PM
mmm grats.
Icky item, maybe ill find a better one =)

tho in a way i kinda dont want to, bored of VoD. I want the good stuff in hound, hounds still interesting on elite.

Zeruell
10-26-2011, 01:16 PM
I realize VoD on Elite registers as a level 20 quest, but do the properties on that ring really justify the ML20 tag?

Cyr
10-26-2011, 01:17 PM
I realize VoD on Elite registers as a level 20 quest, but do the properties on that ring really justify the ML20 tag?

Heck no. It's junk.

GoldyGopher
10-26-2011, 01:19 PM
Heck no. It's junk.

You mean Vendor Trash, junk can grinded up for crafting materials, named loot cannot.

Khurse
10-26-2011, 01:19 PM
It would be cooler if it was Dodge, but HA 4 on a ring isn't "junk" for every build.

Might try and see how it works on my Monk (at least until I get around to making Alchemical wraps)

Tid12
10-26-2011, 01:22 PM
Make it a Profane bonus +2 to AC (Stacking with everything else) and you will see people using it much more on their AC builds.

B0ltdrag0n
10-26-2011, 01:22 PM
If it was "evasion' instead of improved fort 25% it would be bad ass.

As it is I think the description of vendor trash is fairly accurate.

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 01:27 PM
I don't have a toon that would wear it. Junk.

Eladiun
10-26-2011, 01:28 PM
Exceptional Reflex could be situationally useful.

Scraap
10-26-2011, 01:31 PM
For myself, I'm rather in favor of more slot options to reach the same goal, rather than higher and higher bars. This one, I agree with. (Though I do agree, the ML20's kinda goofy.)

Alavatar
10-26-2011, 01:33 PM
It would be cooler if it was Dodge, but HA 4 on a ring isn't "junk" for every build.

Might try and see how it works on my Monk (at least until I get around to making Alchemical wraps)

You would wear this ring in lieu of a ToD ring on a monk?

Personally, I only see this being worn on AC builds that only have 1 ToD ring and that is not using an Epic Chimera's Fang with 3 Dragonmarks of the Sentinel. HA4 doesn't stack with various levels of Parrying, does it?

Zeruell
10-26-2011, 01:41 PM
Personally, I only see this being worn on AC builds that only have 1 ToD ring and that is not using an Epic Chimera's Fang with 3 Dragonmarks of the Sentinel.

Or a AC-based Min II, or the Swashbuckler, or that new fire cloak, or...
As was mentioned above, slot options are nice, but this is looking really lackluster.


HA4 doesn't stack with various levels of Parrying, does it?

I say thee nay.

Infiltraitor
10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
It would be cooler if it was Dodge, but HA 4 on a ring isn't "junk" for every build.

Might try and see how it works on my Monk (at least until I get around to making Alchemical wraps)

That's exactly the point. It's a decent item until something MUCH MUCH better comes along.
It isn't junk if you are a new player with bad gear.
If you are multi-TR with the best gear, you wouldn't give this a second look because you will "get around to making" something much better.

Absolute-Omniscience
10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
Heck no. It's junk.

Absolutely.

LeLoric
10-26-2011, 01:44 PM
You would wear this ring in lieu of a ToD ring on a monk?

Personally, I only see this being worn on AC builds that only have 1 ToD ring and that is not using an Epic Chimera's Fang with 3 Dragonmarks of the Sentinel. HA4 doesn't stack with various levels of Parrying, does it?

Ac builds with only one tod ring generally leave the second ring for chattering ring but now with dodge 3 available in a couple other slots you would probably see the epic silver concord or epic seal of earth here for one more possible ac.

That said it could still see some use in builds like exploiters that don't use wraps and don't want to use an insight 4 weapon.

My fang build may possibly swap in this ring if going to a big two hander like esos and still be able to achieve 80's plus ac in this mode. Just use the first dragon mark for deflection 5 swap out silver concord for this and net is +3 ac.

WruntJunior
10-26-2011, 01:59 PM
As an ac toon lover, it pains me to say that this ring looks like trash, or at best a mid-way item for ac toons until they get their real gear made...but coming from elite vision, that's not something they're likely to get until they already have that portion of their gear made. Sadness.

As is, I may use it until they make the gem of many facets work for either part of the red fens sets (so I can use cannith-crafted weapons while ac tanking), but this doesn't look like anything other than a mid-way item, at best.

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 02:02 PM
That's exactly the point. It's a decent item until something MUCH MUCH better comes along.
It isn't junk if you are a new player with bad gear.
If you are multi-TR with the best gear, you wouldn't give this a second look because you will "get around to making" something much better.

I hope those new players with bad gear aren't in my elite Vod group! lol

JOTMON
10-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Relatively weak for min level 20. No stat, slot or exceptional crafting options.
Would have expected to see this as min level 16.

Possibly makes it a substitute for a TOD ring or the Buccaneers ring.
Essentially trade a insight GS weapon (recraft..??) for a TOD set like Oremi's.

More of a reshuffle or tweak item, not really usefull for most players.

Havok.cry
10-26-2011, 02:12 PM
Has anyone else found anything in there?

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 02:23 PM
I disagree with every single poster about. The ring is not junk for the ac player/characters that run VOD Elite. The fact of the matter is VOD elite is no longer the end game, but rather its for the people that have just reached the end game. I would have actually been disappointed if this ring would have been comparable to rings from Tower or items from the epics because quite frankly those are higher level quests/raids.

Absolute-Omniscience
10-26-2011, 02:36 PM
I disagree with every single poster about. The ring is not junk for the ac player/characters that run VOD Elite. The fact of the matter is VOD elite is no longer the end game, but rather its for the people that have just reached the end game. I would have actually been disappointed if this ring would have been comparable to rings from Tower or items from the epics because quite frankly those are higher level quests/raids.

If it wasn't req level 20, you'd have a point.

oradafu
10-26-2011, 02:40 PM
I disagree with every single poster about. The ring is not junk for the ac player/characters that run VOD Elite. The fact of the matter is VOD elite is no longer the end game, but rather its for the people that have just reached the end game. I would have actually been disappointed if this ring would have been comparable to rings from Tower or items from the epics because quite frankly those are higher level quests/raids.

Absolute-Omniscience has a point. The item is level 20, but it seems comparable to the items in Reign of Madness, which are level 15-16 items.

Cyr
10-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Absolute-Omniscience has a point. The item is level 20, but it seems comparable to the items in Reign of Madness, which are level 15-16 items.

And do not require you running an elite level 20 raid instead only requiring you run some normal/casual runs of lower level quests.

Glenalth
10-26-2011, 02:43 PM
It's interesting, but not worthy of being level 20.

WruntJunior
10-26-2011, 02:43 PM
As a level 20 (elite-only) raid item, I would actually expect this to be at least comparable in use to Tower rings.

As is, it's basically the longsword from update 10 in ring form. Temporarily useful, perhaps, but not good at all for a ml 20 named item.

If this item was, maybe, level 16 (especially if it didn't drop from elite) it would be much better.

UrbanPyro
10-26-2011, 02:47 PM
Deleted.

cforce
10-26-2011, 02:50 PM
I'll throw my vote into the "not junk" column. Definitely has niche usefulness, but personally, I *hate* having my Insight AC bonus on a weapon, because it makes the configuration juggling that much more convoluted.

For example -- to truly min-max with the current loot, I might want to make a Lit II that I use in non-Epic content when I can get useful AC. But, for Epics, I want something better -- an all-damage Lit II. Of course, I'm never going to make these two *slightly* different weapons for real...

Then, in a different situation, let's say I want to dual-wield Wounding/Puncturing for some Elite high level trash. Great, I can easily craft two of those now. Oooh, 'cept I lose 4 AC by not using my greensteel. Should I use GS + WoP?

Moving AC-related bonuses out of the weapon channel just makes equipment swapping and equipment decision making a lot easier.

Eladiun
10-26-2011, 02:52 PM
Additionally this brings up the intriguing question of whether or not other new raid loot has been added to dilute the tables of the pre-existing raids?


Since this dropped out of a side chest, i would say the answer is no.

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 03:02 PM
If it wasn't req level 20, you'd have a point.

Level 20 today is meaningless. If someone is level 20 in game it could mean that they just reached level 20 or have been grinding on a character for years and have corresponding loot and past lives. The difference between those two character/player types is enormous. Level 20 no longer has meaning as a character level. From a loot perspective the difference between level 15 and level 20 from an xp/time standpoint is a virtual milisecond in a character's life so what meaning does that have either. Oh I have to wait 500k xp to equip an item man which takes an afternoon...

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 03:03 PM
As a level 20 (elite-only) raid item, I would actually expect this to be at least comparable in use to Tower rings.

As is, it's basically the longsword from update 10 in ring form. Temporarily useful, perhaps, but not good at all for a ml 20 named item.

If this item was, maybe, level 16 (especially if it didn't drop from elite) it would be much better.

Hard Tower and quite possible normal Tower is more difficult then VOD elite. Loot from VOD elite should never be as good as loot from the tower.....

Absolute-Omniscience
10-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Level 20 today is meaningless. If someone is level 20 in game it could mean that they just reached level 20 or have been grinding on a character for years and have corresponding loot and past lives. The difference between those two character/player types is enormous. Level 20 no longer has meaning as a character level. From a loot perspective the difference between level 15 and level 20 from an xp/time standpoint is a virtual milisecond in a character's life so what meaning does that have either. Oh I have to wait 500k xp to equip an item man which takes an afternoon...

Yes, I agree, however, considering that vod elite is harder than tod normal, AND the loot requires 2 levels higher. I think it is justified to say that the ring should, in fact, be better than the tod one.

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 03:05 PM
It would still pretty much be **** at level 15!

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 03:09 PM
Yes, I agree, however, considering that vod elite is harder than tod normal, AND the loot requires 2 levels higher. I think it is justified to say that the ring should, in fact, be better than the tod one.

Are you sure that Vod elite is harder then normal tower because I think that Tower normal might very well be more difficult. Vod elite is a very simple formula, you just plug it in and play whereas tower normal requires some different skill sets such as kiting/dealing with high damage trash, boots, and more organization.

JOTMON
10-26-2011, 03:57 PM
Yes, I agree, however, considering that vod elite is harder than tod normal, AND the loot requires 2 levels higher. I think it is justified to say that the ring should, in fact, be better than the tod one.


I would disagree, VOD Elite is easier than TOD Normal in my opinion but they are close.
VOD level 18 (used to be 16) making it 20 on Elite
TOD level 20

The ring itself is not bad, just the min level is too high, should be around level 16.
Does not stack with Leviks set(which is level 14 and gives +3 Insight) from VOD/Hound

Same +4 insight can be achieved on:
-Shroud crafted Greensteel with Insight can be used at level 12, but realistically at 16 on a non-TR( 3rd tier).
-Dragontouched Armour around level 17 (slotted 3rd tier),or 3 piece Leviks gives +5 Insight AC
-Alchemical weapon (level 20 raid) Crafted tier1 Air min level 16.
-Red Fens Sirens set Epic crafting level 20.

Maybe add a supressed power/exceptional/epic craft to bring it to level 20.
Would have like to have seen this as a Levik's ring and add to the set bonus.

redspecter23
10-26-2011, 04:05 PM
If it were to be a dodge +4 bonus it could be an alternative to Icy Raiment on monk based toons or a huge bonus to anyone that's currently wearing heavy armor. I think that would have been the item I would have liked to have seen with a min lv 20 on it.

As it is, it's a very very niche item that a few builds might want for consolidation purposes some of the time. I think the +25% fort may come in handy on wizards looking to get the most out of their yugo pots without losing 100% fort so that's at least another niche sort of use there. On those same wizards, the +2 exceptional reflex could be quite handy if they have invested in the Int instead of Dex for reflex saves feat. Wiz/Rogue combo's also benefit there.

Now all you have to do is build a Wiz/Rogue AC based toon and you can take advantage of this ring to the fullest :)

Valindria
10-26-2011, 04:23 PM
I could be wrong, but I think the good news is that:

1. This was not in the raid chest
2. There are still (hopefully) other new items and maybe this one is the worst.

sirgog
10-26-2011, 04:43 PM
Not a fan of this item, but it does have some narrow niches.

Mostly something for AC specced toons with THF feats to equip when they pull out an eSOS. Might help them hit 'anything under 20 is a graze or miss' AC on Norm/Hard Tower of Despair, for instance, while not sacrificing as much DPS as going S&B mode would.

Likewise a good hotswap item for anywhere our fortification is debuffed.

Matuse
10-26-2011, 04:50 PM
Are you sure that Vod elite is harder then normal tower

Yes. I PUG elite VoD with some frequency. I can seldomly stomach normal ToD with a PUG.

Rydin_Dirtay
10-26-2011, 04:51 PM
As an ac toon lover, it pains me to say that this ring looks like trash, or at best a mid-way item for ac toons until they get their real gear made...but coming from elite vision, that's not something they're likely to get until they already have that portion of their gear made. Sadness.

Well on the Exploiter I can see one possible tanking setup where this ring might be useful (two Incite +20% DR breaking weps, +3 Dodge house p epic item, Kilaus on one finger, Insight 4 not slotted anywhere else)

So yes, it's a very niche item, and probably not worth ML:20, but options are good I guess...

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 07:18 PM
Ac builds with only one tod ring generally leave the second ring for chattering ring but now with dodge 3 available in a couple other slots you would probably see the epic silver concord or epic seal of earth here for one more possible ac.

That said it could still see some use in builds like exploiters that don't use wraps and don't want to use an insight 4 weapon.

My fang build may possibly swap in this ring if going to a big two hander like esos and still be able to achieve 80's plus ac in this mode. Just use the first dragon mark for deflection 5 swap out silver concord for this and net is +3 ac.
I was thinking basically the same thing: I could drop the Epic Concord Ring, swap to my 2-hander, hit the DoS Mass Shield of Faith ability and end up with a net of +3 AC in those instances.

The ring isn't junk, but it definitely has no business having an ML 7 higher than everything else in the raid, as it really isn't that much stronger than any of the other good items in there.

QuantumFX
10-26-2011, 07:27 PM
If they tossed in Exceptional WIS +2 I could see it competing with ToD rings at least for people who are having a hard time fitting HA4 into their weapon slot. The second burst ring for monks is redundant with what the alchemical handwraps are supposed to be.

Osharan_Tregarth
10-26-2011, 07:49 PM
Not a fan of this item, but it does have some narrow niches.

Mostly something for AC specced toons with THF feats to equip when they pull out an eSOS. Might help them hit 'anything under 20 is a graze or miss' AC on Norm/Hard Tower of Despair, for instance, while not sacrificing as much DPS as going S&B mode would.

Likewise a good hotswap item for anywhere our fortification is debuffed.

Ya, I might swap this in for my defender when I'm using an esos.

Monkey_Archer
10-26-2011, 07:55 PM
Could almost be useful to an archmage with yugo pots if it didn't interfere with my exceptional intelligence ring...

LeLoric
10-26-2011, 07:58 PM
Could almost be useful to an archmage with yugo pots if it didn't interfere with my exceptional intelligence ring...

Yeah I thought this too. WF who want to use yugo pots and not have -25% fort may consider this. There are two ring slots so many may be able to use this at least temporarily instead of something else.

Rumbaar
10-26-2011, 08:06 PM
I like the name ... as for the rest. I guess alright in the right hands.

But which is right 25% fort or 10%?

Darknark
10-26-2011, 08:10 PM
Yeah I thought this too. WF who want to use yugo pots and not have -25% fort may consider this. There are two ring slots so many may be able to use this at least temporarily instead of something else.

Quite often the other ring is 20-40hp (+1 exceptional con, with +2 slotted)

LeLoric
10-26-2011, 08:13 PM
Quite often the other ring is 20-40hp (+1 exceptional con, with +2 slotted)

The +1 is easily gotten else where so lets say 20 hitpoints. As a wf wizard would you consider +2 con or +2 int more important?

voodoogroves
10-26-2011, 08:20 PM
The +1 is easily gotten else where so lets say 20 hitpoints. As a wf wizard would you consider +2 con or +2 int more important?

I'm running at cap w/ a +4 CON item on one of my casters types ... non-epic Lion Heded. The debuff and consolidation is far more useful to me than the 20 HP for most content.

Darknark
10-26-2011, 08:22 PM
The +1 is easily gotten else where so lets say 20 hitpoints. As a wf wizard would you consider +2 con or +2 int more important?

2 int of course.. just stating that it still has a cost...

Auran82
10-26-2011, 09:05 PM
If its a level 20 ring from VoD, maybe it could do with the Incredible Potential upgrade option?

Hell, why not have that effect on select other Devil related items. Though Monks probably break that idea.

noinfo
10-26-2011, 09:08 PM
Heck no. It's junk.

Rubbish, while certainly not an always wear item it is far from junk for AC builds who want flexiblity. This provides an alternative slot for +4 insight and +2 reflex is nice. Now I certainly would not be wearing it all the time but when I want to dual weild cannith weapons this is fantastic I can drop my tod/epic concord ring and get an overall +3 ac increase.

Wear it all the time? Hell no but it most certainly has its uses as you dont have to worry about making room for a cloak in your abashai set to do it.

Does it justify level 20? Well I can't say it does, adding +5 prot would or blurry.

Glenalth
10-26-2011, 09:42 PM
If its a level 20 ring from VoD, maybe it could do with the Incredible Potential upgrade option?

Hell, why not have that effect on select other Devil related items. Though Monks probably break that idea.

Probably, but letting it be part of the Tharnes set bonus or something along those lines would be interesting. (I know Levik's fits better thematically, but it's from a different raid)

Ganak
10-26-2011, 09:47 PM
I'd suggest either upping the insight ac bonus to +5 or upping the exceptional reflex save to +3 on that ring.

Grenada
10-26-2011, 10:04 PM
With a name like that, I'm almost expecting to see a hidden effect.


But assuming there isn't, could it be too much to ask for the HA 4 to be changed to dodge +3?


(chattering ring with benefits for level 20s)

sirgog
10-26-2011, 10:25 PM
With a name like that, I'm almost expecting to see a hidden effect.


But assuming there isn't, could it be too much to ask for the HA 4 to be changed to dodge +3?


(chattering ring with benefits for level 20s)

U12 does have a different item with Dodge +3 on it (bracers slot). They also have one epic slot, Inherent Elec Resist 10 and Blurry IIRC (as well as some modifiers that AC builds won't care about).

I would however also prefer to see Dodge +3 on this ring.

Auran82
10-26-2011, 10:25 PM
Probably, but letting it be part of the Tharnes set bonus or something along those lines would be interesting. (I know Levik's fits better thematically, but it's from a different raid)

Have something similar, but have set tokens drop in the new elite raids that allow you to make these new items part of any vod/hound set?

Infiltraitor
10-26-2011, 10:29 PM
But assuming there isn't, could it be too much to ask for the HA 4 to be changed to dodge +3?


/signed

Synthetic
10-26-2011, 11:09 PM
Anyone else think they maybe adding fortification debuffs to raid bosses or some such? They seem to have added a lot of tanking gear lately with exceptional fortification bonuses which is generally useless in the current game setup.

That's my prediction on why the item is ML20 instead of the 16 which is probably what it should be if they don't add fortification debuffs on monsters.

Also this means warforged get further benefit from the innate fortification off setting the recent change to earthgrab.

Cheers

sirgog
10-26-2011, 11:13 PM
Anyone else think they maybe adding fortification debuffs to raid bosses or some such? They seem to have added a lot of tanking gear lately with exceptional fortification bonuses which is generally useless in the current game setup.

That's my prediction on why the item is ML20 instead of the 16 which is probably what it should be if they don't add fortification debuffs on monsters.

Also this means warforged get further benefit from the innate fortification off setting the recent change to earthgrab.

Cheers

Velah and Lailat have both apparently 'learned new tricks on Epic' if you look at the release notes.

Not checked, but it would not surprise me at all to see one of their attacks proc a fortification debuff on a vorpal, or something similar.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 11:59 PM
U12 does have a different item with Dodge +3 on it (bracers slot). They also have one epic slot, Inherent Elec Resist 10 and Blurry IIRC (as well as some modifiers that AC builds won't care about).

I would however also prefer to see Dodge +3 on this ring.
Eh. As it stands having a new slot for Insight +4 is nice. Coupled with the fact that Dodge +3 is now available on bracers, armor and a necklace, I feel it's more important to have the Heightened Awareness here. Sure, the Chattering Ring is kind of outdated, but this isn't improving upon it that much.

If it got both...well, that would be excellent and would warrant the ML 20. That's not going to happen, though.

HA is available on weapons, shields, armor and as a 2 piece set bonus (I feel like I'm leaving something out), so this would actually be introducing it somewhere new. More options for where to stick existing AC bonuses means more variety in how characters equip themselves.

Infiltraitor
10-27-2011, 12:15 AM
Eh. As it stands having a new slot for Insight +4 is nice. Coupled with the fact that Dodge +3 is now available on bracers, armor and a necklace, I feel it's more important to have the Heightened Awareness here. Sure, the Chattering Ring is kind of outdated, but this isn't improving upon it that much.

If it got both...well, that would be excellent and would warrant the ML 20. That's not going to happen, though.

HA is available on weapons, shields, armor and as a 2 piece set bonus (I feel like I'm leaving something out), so this would actually be introducing it somewhere new. More options for where to stick existing AC bonuses means more variety in how characters equip themselves.

You would be leaving out TOD Rings.
The problem with Dodge +3 on the armor is that Dragon touched armor is no longer top of the line. Anyone who cares about AC is either wearing Icy Raiments, Cavalry Plate, or some epic Docent.

sephiroth1084
10-27-2011, 12:25 AM
You would be leaving out TOD Rings.
The problem with Dodge +3 on the armor is that Dragon touched armor is no longer top of the line. Anyone who cares about AC is either wearing Icy Raiments, Cavalry Plate, or some epic Docent.
I still don't see that as an argument for changing HA to Dodge +3 on this thing. That doesn't represent an increase in AC or in versatility of equipment. It would also encroach upon an eventual upgrade to the Chattering Ring itself.

sirgog
10-27-2011, 12:30 AM
Eh. As it stands having a new slot for Insight +4 is nice. Coupled with the fact that Dodge +3 is now available on bracers, armor and a necklace, I feel it's more important to have the Heightened Awareness here. Sure, the Chattering Ring is kind of outdated, but this isn't improving upon it that much.

If it got both...well, that would be excellent and would warrant the ML 20. That's not going to happen, though.

HA is available on weapons, shields, armor and as a 2 piece set bonus (I feel like I'm leaving something out), so this would actually be introducing it somewhere new. More options for where to stick existing AC bonuses means more variety in how characters equip themselves.

HA4 is also available on a cloak with other significant defensive effects in U12. (Inherent Fire Resist 10, 20% Fire Absorb, 10% proc rate Fire Shield Hot - all mitigate elemental damage rather than physical, but they add up)

Qhualor
10-27-2011, 12:42 AM
for a first lifer its not bad for those evasion ac builds until they can get their tod rings or whatever. the ml20 needs to be lowered to 18 in my opinion, 16 at the most.

noinfo
10-27-2011, 12:43 AM
You would be leaving out TOD Rings.
The problem with Dodge +3 on the armor is that Dragon touched armor is no longer top of the line. Anyone who cares about AC is either wearing Icy Raiments, Cavalry Plate, or some epic Docent.


TOD rings are only HA2

noinfo
10-27-2011, 12:50 AM
HA4 is also available on a cloak with other significant defensive effects in U12. (Inherent Fire Resist 10, 20% Fire Absorb, 10% proc rate Fire Shield Hot - all mitigate elemental damage rather than physical, but they add up)

Its a very nice cloak but in a very competative spot: envenom, mabar are both sought after by ac based melee.

sephiroth1084
10-27-2011, 01:40 AM
HA4 is also available on a cloak with other significant defensive effects in U12. (Inherent Fire Resist 10, 20% Fire Absorb, 10% proc rate Fire Shield Hot - all mitigate elemental damage rather than physical, but they add up)
I missed that apparently. Doesn't change my stance, though, as I still think that offering the same bonuses in more slots is better than slightly upgrading essentially existing items in most cases.

As for the cloak, it is competing with the Epic Envenomed Cloak, the Cloak of Night, and Min II cloak, among others, and has plenty of situations in which it wouldn't be useful for anything but the AC bonus, although most of the big fights in our current endgame/raids involve some fire damage.

And again, a +3 Dodge ring upgrade feels like it would be preempting any improvements maid to the Chattering Ring, which, given the changes that the loot in The Reaver and Abbot received recently, is at least somewhat likely to come down the pipe. Now, sure, the CR will be ML 9 or 11 or whatever, while this is ML 20, but this really isn't offering all that much over the CR to begin with.

Glenalth
10-27-2011, 02:12 AM
Have something similar, but have set tokens drop in the new elite raids that allow you to make these new items part of any vod/hound set?

They could just throw a Sovereign rune slot on it... actually that's probably not a good idea.

But a small selection of those actual runes usable on it would be neat.

Lehmu
10-27-2011, 10:00 AM
I disagree with every single poster about. The ring is not junk for the ac player/characters that run VOD Elite. The fact of the matter is VOD elite is no longer the end game, but rather its for the people that have just reached the end game. I would have actually been disappointed if this ring would have been comparable to rings from Tower or items from the epics because quite frankly those are higher level quests/raids.

I disagree. ToD normal can be pugged easily without much regard to who's in your group. Take first 11 with boots who hit lfm, make sure to have 2 healers (or just one you know and trust) and a tank for Horoth. Not so much with VoD elite, especially if you don't want to drink2win.

I'd bet most characters run their first ToD before their first elite VoD (let's assume most characters aren't in a raiding guild :)), and as such have a shot at ToD rings before this new VoD loot.

Symar-FangofLloth
10-27-2011, 07:07 PM
Okay, I know you guys took screenshots. Post that holy avenger!

SillyWallaby
10-27-2011, 07:23 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6403/holyavenger.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....



http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... so we gave it to a pally :D

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 07:26 PM
8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

K... so any idea what it does when wielded by someone Lawful/a Paladin?

bradleyforrest
10-27-2011, 07:28 PM
K... so any idea what it does when wielded by someone Lawful/a Paladin?

Axiomatic Burst, Holy Bust, Brilliance, Greater Dispelling, SR 35

Am I missing anything?

Rydlic
10-27-2011, 07:30 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6403/holyavenger.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....



http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... so we gave it to a pally :D
I believe we now have the Holy Avenger, the Pally sword every Pally wanted in PnP.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 07:33 PM
Axiomatic Burst, Holy Bust, Brilliance, Greater Dispelling, SR 35

Am I missing anything?

The second screenshot was edited in after my post. Look at the post with just the first screenshot of a +5 Cold Iron Longsword, and you'll see where my post came from.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 07:38 PM
I believe we now have the Holy Avenger, the Pally sword every Pally wanted in PnP.

I'm kind of underwhelmed by it, actually.

Low Base damage and Crit Multiplier - boo.

Low to-hit. That's the same to-hit I can get on a level 20 Paladin out of a ML:5 Longsword (Cannith Crafted Cold Iron with +5 Enhancement bonus + Shard of Masterful Craftsmanship).

SR 30 or 35? The Description doesn't match the property.

Radiance is still bugged with Stoned/Danced/Held/Stunned monsters.

I would have liked to see Righteousness on it, and perhaps an increased threat range or multiplier. More to-hit and damage against high AC mobs like, oh, say, Epic Lailat? That wouldn't be bad.

The thumbnail looks cool - can we see a screenie of the Pally holding it? Maybe it at least looks cool.

gloopygloop
10-27-2011, 07:43 PM
8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....

[Divine Vengance picture]

... so we gave it to a pally :D

It would actually be a very nice off-hand weapon if the bosses we fought actually buffed themselves to get the stats they have instead of just having those stats assigned as "base" stats.

It's still a nice weapon, but it's not the end-all, be-all holy super weapon that it is in Pen and Paper. Mostly because weapons in DDO aren't just dialed up to 11, but all the way up to 15.

When a +5 Vorpal weapon is considered "meh", even the biggest super weapons from Pen and Paper aren't going to be impressive.

As a weapon that doesn't need to have anyone work at crafting it, though, it's quite nice. The ML 18 seems excessive considering what we get our hands on at level 11 and 12, though.

Ganak
10-27-2011, 07:46 PM
I believe we now have the Holy Avenger, the Pally sword every Pally wanted in PnP.


My understanding is that a in PnP lore a Holy Avenger can be a two handed weapon.

I would expect a two handed version to drop.

If a two handed version is not currently planned, I would suggest this is an concerning disconnect from the game on the part of the Turbine decision makers involved, and should be made right prior to the launch of U12. And we would all be happy:)

sirgog
10-27-2011, 07:49 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6403/holyavenger.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....



http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... so we gave it to a pally :D

That on a capstone Pally or a splashed or pre-20 one?

voodoogroves
10-27-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm kind of underwhelmed by it, actually.

Low Base damage and Crit Multiplier - boo.

Low to-hit. That's the same to-hit I can get on a level 20 Paladin out of a ML:5 Longsword (Cannith Crafted Cold Iron with +5 Enhancement bonus + Shard of Masterful Craftsmanship).

SR 30 or 35? The Description doesn't match the property.

Radiance is still bugged with Stoned/Danced/Held/Stunned monsters.

I would have liked to see Righteousness on it, and perhaps an increased threat range or multiplier. More to-hit and damage against high AC mobs like, oh, say, Epic Lailat? That wouldn't be bad.

The thumbnail looks cool - can we see a screenie of the Pally holding it? Maybe it at least looks cool.

Well remember it is ICONIC in PNP ... not the uber best ... much like the other iconic named loot

Xenostrata
10-27-2011, 07:55 PM
Well remember it is ICONIC in PNP ... not the uber best ... much like the other iconic named loot

Yeah, it's just as iconic and uber as the Smite!

Edit: I'd like an answer to sirgog's question, I can see some interesting 18/2 monk splash WSS builds with this thing.

Edit Again: Also, just Cold Iron? Thanks, that's helpful in pretty much exactly one quest and one raid at endgame. Give us Silver, we can already get the Good DR anyway.

SillyWallaby
10-27-2011, 08:11 PM
Pally was pure, (everyone was lvl 20 in group), and I would assume had the capstone.

Shade
10-27-2011, 08:21 PM
Yeah, it's just as iconic and uber as the Smite!

Edit: I'd like an answer to sirgog's question, I can see some interesting 18/2 monk splash WSS builds with this thing.

Edit Again: Also, just Cold Iron? Thanks, that's helpful in pretty much exactly one quest and one raid at endgame. Give us Silver, we can already get the Good DR anyway.

Its meant to be for demons, not devils..

And for demons, say queen lailat, its pretty sick. May even be able to dispel some of her buffs during "i am war" , tho prolly only on non-epic.

The enchantments on it seem appropriate, but yea it shoulda got khopeshes overpowered x3 crit, else DPS wise it still sits a bit below el cannith crafted khopesh i believe.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 08:22 PM
Its meant to be for demons, not devils..

And for demons, say queen lailat, its pretty sick. May even be able to dispel some of her buffs during "i am war" , tho prolly only on non-epic.

The enchantments on it seem appropriate, but yea it shoulda got khopeshes overpowered x3 crit, else DPS wise it still sits a bit below el cannith crafted khopesh i believe.

And some sort of bonus to-hit. I'm not going to be shy here; Lailat AC sucks.

Shade
10-27-2011, 08:26 PM
And some sort of bonus to-hit. I'm not going to be shy here; Lailat AC sucks.

I think paladins need that more so in the form of a pre upgrade.

That or add epic vod, and make that thing +10.

A a simple drop from whats imo not a very challenging raid (VoD elite is nothing more then "Have X stats - wins" or "dont? lose", it cant really get that much power.

I think it would of been more fun if you got a base version in vod, then needed hound elite to get something to "finish it" if you needed both raids elited to get it, that would be a fair way to balance it and give it more power.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 08:27 PM
I think paladins need that more so in the form of a pre upgrade.

That or add epic vod, and make that thing +10.

A a simple drop from whats imo not a very challenging raid, it cant really get that much power.

I think it would of been more fun if you got a base version in vod, then needed hound elite to get something to "finish it" if you needed both raids elited to get it, that would be a fair way to balance it and give it more power.

I would like to see the devs run with either idea. Heck, VoD/HoX/and Shroud. Might as well, all the same content pack.

Jay203
10-27-2011, 08:36 PM
so how is that in the hands of a monk?

sweez
10-27-2011, 08:41 PM
Regular longsword crit profile? Ugh :\

Angelus_dead
10-27-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm kind of underwhelmed by it, actually.
To call it "underwhelming" is far too nice.

It appears to have a terrible property that reduces the effectiveness of your teammates... in many situations, that weapon would be worse than the free Holy Sword all Paladins can summon magically.

gloopygloop
10-27-2011, 08:44 PM
To call it "underwhelming" is far too nice.

It appears to have a terrible property that reduces the effectiveness of your teammates... in many situations, that weapon would be worse than the free Holy Sword all Paladins can summon magically.

I was assuming that it was a single target dispel that would not hit your own party's buffs.

If it takes away any of your own party's buffs, then it's nothing but a horrible noob trap.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 08:45 PM
I was assuming that it was a single target dispel that would not hit your own party's buffs.

If it takes away any of your own party's buffs, then it's nothing but a horrible noob trap.

I believe A_D was referring to Radiance.

gloopygloop
10-27-2011, 08:46 PM
so how is that in the hands of a monk?

Terrible.

Either the Monk ends up uncentered with the Longsword or, even worse, he took Whirling Steel Strike!

gloopygloop
10-27-2011, 08:47 PM
I believe A_D was referring to Radiance.

Thanks for the heads up. I saw "Radiance", but somehow interpereted it as "Brilliance".

Necrological
10-27-2011, 08:49 PM
well it looks like the timeblade from the Chronoscope raid but with the holy aura on it. I got the second copy and field tested it.....its an ok weapon but not the best in my book. i do have the pally capstone but this weapin is mostly for a knight of the chalice. IMO it could use some work.

Angelus_dead
10-27-2011, 08:51 PM
I was assuming that it was a single target dispel that would not hit your own party's buffs.
Yes, it'll probably be a single target dispel on the monster that doesn't hit your own party's buffs.

But releasing monsters from Destruction, Improved Destruction, Hold Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Symbol of Pain, and Irresistable Dance is going to reduce the effectiveness of your teammates.

TheDearLeader
10-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Yes, it'll probably be a single target dispel on the monster that doesn't hit your own party's buffs.

But releasing monsters from Destruction, Improved Destruction, Hold Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Symbol of Pain, and Irresistable Dance is going to reduce the effectiveness of your teammates.

Ah, so you did meant the Dispel effect. My mistake - and also, good call at the same time.

Necrological
10-27-2011, 09:18 PM
actually thats not correct. read the description on the greater dispel effect, its protective buffs are removed, not the debuffs the enemy gets from destruction improved destruction etc etc etc. so those wont be affected.

oradafu
10-27-2011, 09:22 PM
actually thats not correct. read the description on the greater dispel effect, its protective buffs are removed, not the debuffs the enemy gets from destruction improved destruction etc etc etc. so those wont be affected.

And the Rogue's Opportunist feat was suppose to bypass 10% Fort and grant sneak attack, but it took the Devs a year to discover that it didn't work even when people questioned it upon release. Questioning that an effect is actually working (and working in the player's favor) should be something we should be supporting since the example that I just gave was something the Devs dropped the ball on and ignored until after they built a whole new combat mechanism around the idea that it worked.

Angelus_dead
10-27-2011, 09:23 PM
actually thats not correct. read the description on the greater dispel effect, its protective buffs are removed, not the debuffs the enemy gets from destruction improved destruction etc etc etc. so those wont be affected.
A technically precise reading of the description on the item does not indicate that non-protective spells are not removed.

A familiarity with the functionality of Dispel Magic in DDO also suggests that it will remove all kinds of spells; and knowledge of monster stats indicates that their defensive buffs will only rarely be the ones that get removed.

Khellendros13
10-27-2011, 09:27 PM
Divine Vengeance is ****, unless as a Marilith beater.


+5 Holyburst Silver/Cold Iron Khopesh of Greater Lawful/Chaotic Outsider Bane
+40dmg mod before bane effect, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
Final Averaged Swing
97.35 = 75.98 + 21.37

or Longsword version
Final Averaged Swing
85.36 = 63.99 + 21.37

Divine Vengeance
+40dmg mod, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
81.26 = 58.93 + 22.33

How about a 2d6 base, x3 crit version?
Final Averaged Swing
96.09 = 73.76 + 22.33

EDIT: Lit2 is still beating both of these for trash, even Devil trash (unless the to hit from the Bane helps)

Elaril
10-27-2011, 09:40 PM
Divineavengerfailloller

Perspicacity
10-27-2011, 09:41 PM
Yes, it'll probably be a single target dispel on the monster that doesn't hit your own party's buffs.

But releasing monsters from Destruction, Improved Destruction, Hold Monster, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Symbol of Pain, and Irresistable Dance is going to reduce the effectiveness of your teammates.

Actually in the description it does say specifically "protective spells" are we absolutely sure it dispels debuffs as well as buffs?

MeliCat
10-27-2011, 09:42 PM
trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

Angelus_dead
10-27-2011, 09:46 PM
Yo dawg I heard you like to debuff bosses, so I put a dispel on my sword so you can debuff after you debuff.


Actually in the description it does say specifically "protective spells" are we absolutely sure it dispels debuffs as well as buffs?
Actually the description says multiple things.

It says that Greater Dispel Magic happens, and also that protective spells are removed. But Greater Dispel Magic removes both harmful and helpful spells, and the item description never says that it'd got a special version of GDM which doesn't do that. (And if it did do that, then it wouldn't be accurate to even call it "Greater Dispel Magic").

Khellendros13
10-27-2011, 09:48 PM
trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

Actually unless you have Lit2 or cannith crafted Devil/Demon beaters, it is decent. It just sucks when compared crafted Khopesh, Cannith and Greensteel.

Reasonable trash beater. We can craft new GS for new toons so when compared to that, yea it sucks.

MeliCat
10-27-2011, 09:51 PM
Actually unless you have Lit2 or cannith crafted Devil/Demon beaters, it is decent. It just sucks when compared crafted Khopesh, Cannith and Greensteel.

Reasonable trash beater. We can craft new GS for new toons so when compared to that, yea it sucks.

Did you mean to quote me?

I was only working out for myself this greater dispel thing - not paying attention to anything else.

But as A_D says maybe it's not the *real* greater dispell but a modification.

Go get one and test Splatsplat!!

sirgog
10-27-2011, 09:55 PM
I think paladins need that more so in the form of a pre upgrade.

That or add epic vod, and make that thing +10.

A a simple drop from whats imo not a very challenging raid (VoD elite is nothing more then "Have X stats - wins" or "dont? lose", it cant really get that much power.

I think it would of been more fun if you got a base version in vod, then needed hound elite to get something to "finish it" if you needed both raids elited to get it, that would be a fair way to balance it and give it more power.

VOD isn't a gear/stat check at all, it's a healer skill test.

IMO the Avenger's base damage should be somewhat higher - maybe 2d12 - or alternately it should have a substantially higher To-Hit (maybe an enhancement bonus of 8 to 10 for a capstone paladin). Alignment bursts are a lot of DPS on a Khopesh or Scimitar, but do quite a bit less on a longsword. Also Paladins TWFing have major to-hit issues.

Fixing one of those issues with the weapon will make it great for chaotic evil outsiders - currently a narrow niche, but we will (hopefully) return to Amrath one day.

Also, really hope that dispel proc doesn't dispel DoTs, Shield of Condemnation debuffs, Waves of Exhaustion and the like...

sirgog
10-27-2011, 09:57 PM
trying to understand this greater dispell effect.

from the wiki "You must make a caster level check of 1d20+your caster level (Maximum caster level 20.) of DC 11+spell's caster level to remove an effect. "

So say I roll a 20 when I hit this mob in hard weap ship or whatever. And let's assume that this mob has CL 30 (I am told this is not an unresonable assumption as mob CL are much much higher than player CL and that that mob CL <> CR level. also to be clear this is the CL of the mob that *cast* the spell on the mob you're hitting whether or not they targetted themselves) and I'm on a pure pally.

20 + 20 < 11 + 30 roundabouts.

ie *totally* useless... and as A_D said most likely worse than useless in a lot of cases.


bad bad bad bad bad



I predict party booting based on anyone carrying this in myDDO. Please devs, this is not fair to newer players who may see this and go 'oh cool!!!!!' It's like a very nasty newb trick on something that is a much beloved item from PnP. Please change it. It's not fair on newer players.

I know some medium level mobs drink Haste potions (mostly Ogres and Trolls) that are caster level 5.

Not sure if higher level ones do the same, I've never paid attention as those types of mobs are usually so easy.

Khellendros13
10-27-2011, 10:02 PM
Did you mean to quote me?

I was only working out for myself this greater dispel thing - not paying attention to anything else.

But as A_D says maybe it's not the *real* greater dispell but a modification.

Go get one and test Splatsplat!!

Yea I was quoting you Mel. I honestly do not think Paladins will be booted for using this. In fact, if I see these on Pally's in ToD, Shroud, Epic Chrono, even Epic VoN6 (Velah is Chaotic Evil) I can be sure the DPS is going to be decent or somewhat close to Lit2 and Cove Scimitars.

I do indeed plan to get a pair for Splat, as Demon beaters. It looks pretty cool too :)

Just make them 2d6 x3 with a Suppressed Power that can be unlocked like ToD rings, but with stuff like Improved Destruction, dmg procs (lit2, Disint), Paralysing, Vorpal etc.

That would equalize them with Lit2 in a Paladins hands, but address the lack of to hit and make them quite fun to use.

MeliCat
10-27-2011, 10:05 PM
Yea I was quoting you Mel. I honestly do not think Paladins will be booted for using this. In fact, if I see these on Pally's in ToD, Shroud, Epic Chrono, even Epic VoN6 (Velah is Chaotic Evil) I can be sure the DPS is going to be decent or somewhat close to Lit2 and Cove Scimitars.

I do indeed plan to get a pair for Splat, as Demon beaters. It looks pretty cool too :)

Just make them 2d6 x3 with a Suppressed Power that can be unlocked like ToD rings, but with stuff like Improved Destruction, dmg procs (lit2, Disint), Paralysing, Vorpal etc.

That would equalize them with Lit2 in a Paladins hands, but address the lack of to hit and make them quite fun to use.

kk.

lots of VOD elites come U12 then. PREPARE THE GREASE CLICKIES!

Auran82
10-27-2011, 10:06 PM
IMO the Avenger's base damage should be somewhat higher - maybe 2d12 - or alternately it should have a substantially higher To-Hit (maybe an enhancement bonus of 8 to 10 for a capstone paladin). Alignment bursts are a lot of DPS on a Khopesh or Scimitar, but do quite a bit less on a longsword. Also Paladins TWFing have major to-hit issues.

Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

Khellendros13
10-27-2011, 10:11 PM
Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

Nice ideas :)

DoS - Regen LoH

KotC - Faster regen on smites (30 -45 seconds?)

HotD - Regen Turns

Shade
10-27-2011, 10:11 PM
VOD isn't a gear/stat check at all, it's a healer skill test.
.

um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.

It's most definetely gear check, hell its the prime example of one. You dont need much skill to toss heal scrolls and the odd heal or remove curse. Better timing = less deaths, sure.. But death in vod elite means very little, recovery is easy. I died a couple times on our run, mainly due to lack of any debuff what so ever and poor dps vs trash, but was back up again, fully buffed and tanking in under 20 seconds. One healer mentions it was his very first time ever healing the raid, the other didn specify but dont htink he was particularly experienced. They did fine, just got distracted during the franctic trash waves.

When I can take all new players, and say - Everyone go nuts, zero strategy, and have no fear of failing, its a gear check, Nothing more, nothing less. It's a poorly designed raid for that reason, and a reason noobs like it, and i dont.

Really glad the new loot from it doesnt interest me, dont wanna run more on live.

Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

Perspicacity
10-27-2011, 10:15 PM
um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.



I have to disagree with this, I have seen healers solo VoD. If a healers is good enough the party becomes little more than cannon fodder, regardless of gear.




Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

Completely agree with this though.

Infiltraitor
10-27-2011, 10:29 PM
Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)

And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.

And do something about either the base damage, crit range or crit multiplier (or a combo of these) maybe give it stats similar to the cove scimitar (18-20, 2d6 base)

Even with all those changes, the only avenger that will be any good is Samuel L Jackson.

If the holy avenger is to be any use other than vendortrash, it will need to:

Break DR
Contribute DPS
Not require a ****-ton of feats to be any good on a feat-starved class.

I'm secretly wishing for:

Holy Avenger
Randomly any of the racial weapons and any of the paladin follower of the X weapons.
+5 Enhancement
Metalline
Aligned
You regenerate Smite Evils at 1 every 12 seconds.
Craftable +10 (So much potential with craftable rune arm effect being wasted. Going to bring this up whenever possible)

weewoo0
10-27-2011, 10:31 PM
Even with all those changes, the only avenger that will be any good is Samuel L Jackson.

If the holy avenger is to be any use other than vendortrash, it will need to:

Break DR
Contribute DPS
Not require a ****-ton of feats to be any good on a feat-starved class.

I'm secretly wishing for:

Holy Avenger
Randomly any of the racial weapons and any of the paladin follower of the X weapons.
+5 Enhancement
Metalline
Aligned
You regenerate Smite Evils at 1 every 12 seconds.
Craftable +10 (So much potential with craftable rune arm effect being wasted. Going to bring this up whenever possible)

now see. i'm not extremely familiar with cannith crafting on pre-gen loot but: wouldn't that actually be less dps. -_-
(at least towards the intended enemy: demons it seems)

Shade
10-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Divine Vengeance is ****, unless as a Marilith beater.


+5 Holyburst Silver/Cold Iron Khopesh of Greater Lawful/Chaotic Outsider Bane
+40dmg mod before bane effect, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
Final Averaged Swing (against queen lailat)
97.35 = 75.98 + 21.37

or Longsword version
Final Averaged Swing
85.36 = 63.99 + 21.37

Divine Vengeance
+40dmg mod, Seeker +6, 10% doublestrike
81.26 = 58.93 + 22.33

How about a 2d6 base, x3 crit version?
Final Averaged Swing
96.09 = 73.76 + 22.33

erm think u did the numbers wrong in barrage, or at least forgot lailats 80% fortificaiton.. Here's what I got (well with 75% fort, barrage only allows 25pnt increments):
HobGCHOB Khopesh:
Final Averaged Swing
71.25 = 51.825(Weapon) + 19.425(Bonus)

Holy Avenger:
Final Averaged Swing
65.4 = 45.1(Weapon) + 20.3(Bonus)

didnt do the double strike, but that wont change it more then a couple percent. Otherwised follows ur figures (40dmg mod, seeker 6)

Im thinking you forgot radiance dmg too..

Holy Avenger has more bonus dice, and thus better base dmg, and does better vs higher fort:
4d6 non crit vs 5d6..
makes up for it on crits:
both on a 17 (IC used)
4d6 on burst khopesh
Divine avenger:
3d6 +3d6 on double burst = 6d6
4d6 on radiance = 10d6
= 31.5 vs 49 total bonus dice. (for average see above)

So yea khopesh wins, by a small margin. But a simple raid loot drop, vs a expensive, long grind, maxxed out crafted weapon. Seems mostly fair, not every pally that runs DQ2 epic has the ~60ish crafting lvl u need to make that.

Mostly I think khopeshs are broken tho. But far too late in the game to change that.

sirgog
10-27-2011, 10:36 PM
um the healer could be the best in the game and still fail if the group lacks proper dps gear.

It's most definetely gear check, hell its the prime example of one. You dont need much skill to toss heal scrolls and the odd heal or remove curse. Better timing = less deaths, sure.. But death in vod elite means very little, recovery is easy. I died a couple times on our run, mainly due to lack of any debuff what so ever and poor dps vs trash, but was back up again, fully buffed and tanking in under 20 seconds. One healer mentions it was his very first time ever healing the raid, the other didn specify but dont htink he was particularly experienced. They did fine, just got distracted during the franctic trash waves.

When I can take all new players, and say - Everyone go nuts, zero strategy, and have no fear of failing, its a gear check, Nothing more, nothing less. It's a poorly designed raid for that reason, and a reason noobs like it, and i dont.

Really glad the new loot from it doesnt interest me, dont wanna run more on live.

Hope hound elite loot is awesome tho, its the exact oposite. Gear matters a little, but skill and strategy are king.

The people that have soloed VOD (including myself) have much, much, MUCH lower DPS than the total raidwide DPS of the groups that fail it.

If it's a gear check, the naked run (can't equip any items except to your hands) I ran would have autofailed.

Avoid unnecessary damage at all costs, conserve healing SP, manage tank curses and control Suulo's aggro - if you know how to do that, the raid is easy with any gear level. Including with a whole raid that has taken off their Con, GFL and fortification items.


Gear does let you complete with poor strategies, however - something that isn't true of some other raids like HoX or LoB.

Xenostrata
10-27-2011, 10:37 PM
now see. i'm not extremely familiar with cannith crafting on pre-gen loot but: wouldn't that actually be less dps. -_-
(at least towards the intended enemy: demons it seems)

When not considering the smite regen, then maybe. You could craft the Holy Burst onto it, and if you consider how smites regen at the moment... lets look at a 10 minute fight.

Assuming THF, 100 swings per minute, 1000 swings. Max Smite KotC gets 18 smites in that 10 minute window. 1.8% of his attacks are smites.

New regen time. 1000 swings total. Max Smite KotC with new Regen time gets 62 smites in that 10 minute window. 6.2% of his attacks are smites.

I'd much prefer the smite regen time get tied to KotC. Have it be a base of 30 sec/smite for normal, then -5 seconds per tier of KotC to an end result of 15 secs/smite at KotC3. Then add on an additional -5 on the ToD ring, for a final value of 1 smite every 10 seconds. End result is 72 smites in 10 minutes, or 7.2% of the attacks being smites. Still not much, but better (personally, I think ~10% should be the goal for a Max smite spec).

weewoo0
10-27-2011, 10:45 PM
When not considering the smite regen, then maybe. You could craft the Holy Burst onto it, and if you consider how smites regen at the moment... lets look at a 10 minute fight.

Assuming THF, 100 swings per minute, 1000 swings. Max Smite KotC gets 18 smites in that 10 minute window. 1.8% of his attacks are smites.

New regen time. 1000 swings total. Max Smite KotC with new Regen time gets 62 smites in that 10 minute window. 6.2% of his attacks are smites.

I'd much prefer the smite regen time get tied to KotC. Have it be a base of 30 sec/smite for normal, then -5 seconds per tier of KotC to an end result of 15 secs/smite at KotC3. Then add on an additional -5 on the ToD ring, for a final value of 1 smite every 10 seconds. End result is 72 smites in 10 minutes, or 7.2% of the attacks being smites. Still not much, but better (personally, I think ~10% should be the goal for a Max smite spec).
see. i have a different view. half the damage bonus and make it a marking effect. you declare the devil that you're smiting (say harry or horoth) and every attack made against them has extra strength behind it. then have the extra smite enh be for declaring multiple enemies or for incremental bonuses to smite strength.
i mean heck the biggest advantage to smites, the increased critical multiplier allowing for nutty damage numbers, is a PASSIVE effect on a barbarian .... :/

Shade
10-27-2011, 10:47 PM
The people that have soloed VOD (including myself) have much, much, MUCH lower DPS than the total raidwide DPS of the groups that fail it.

If it's a gear check, the naked run (can't equip any items except to your hands) I ran would have autofailed.

Avoid unnecessary damage at all costs, conserve healing SP, manage tank curses and control Suulo's aggro - if you know how to do that, the raid is easy with any gear level. Including with a whole raid that has taken off their Con, GFL and fortification items.

Soloing a joke raid on normal vs a raidgroup elite solo isn't exactly a useful or on topic comparison. You should know VoD elite scales to the extremes as well as anyone.

And no you have not solo'd VoD Elite. VoD normal is a joke and im personally tired of seeing all the "high AC, or Favored soul" solo runs, there not that impressive. I've done it on my favored soul too just to see what all the fuss it about, it was a joke.

Few have solo'd elite. Only ones i know of are Teth and samdsherman, and im not sure teth has attempted the post U11 verison. He's pretty insanely geared and skilled. It takes both for solo elite, but only one of the two for group elite.

Reasons is exactly as I said: Yes some skill is required when things go bad (double curses, etc), and evne more when solo as you only get 1 try, or 2 if you have deathpact.. In a raidgroup? Your tank can die 5 times and still win.

99% GEARCHECK, 1% player skill. Accept it.

It's no different then ball method DQ2. No/simple strategy, gear required to win = Gearcheck raid, not skill raid.

Hound, LoB, Abbot, Titan are great example of heavy skill and strategy raids. VoD certainly is not.

Infiltraitor
10-27-2011, 10:53 PM
now see. i'm not extremely familiar with cannith crafting on pre-gen loot but: wouldn't that actually be less dps. -_-
(at least towards the intended enemy: demons it seems)

Yes. It would be less dps.
However, the item is pure **** as it is because of its severe limitations: It is only good against 1 boss in the entire game.
Even against the Demon Queen, Alchemical is still better.
Thus, such an item would never see use. Yet another useless item in a sea of useless items, spells, feats, skills, classes, races.

At least with craftible +10, you give players the option of making it into some niche builds.

mystafyi
10-27-2011, 10:59 PM
Hound, LoB, Abbot, Titan are great example of heavy skill and strategy raids. VoD certainly is not.

Titan skill = hanging on a ladder. 1 person moves a laser, 1person beats down a pillar, 2 people run cyrstals. zero skill or gear needed.
Hound skill = buffing a few puppy's and watching them fight.

LoB and Abbot I agree though

Infiltraitor
10-27-2011, 11:14 PM
When not considering the smite regen, then maybe. You could craft the Holy Burst onto it, and if you consider how smites regen at the moment... lets look at a 10 minute fight.

Assuming THF, 100 swings per minute, 1000 swings. Max Smite KotC gets 18 smites in that 10 minute window. 1.8% of his attacks are smites.

New regen time. 1000 swings total. Max Smite KotC with new Regen time gets 62 smites in that 10 minute window. 6.2% of his attacks are smites.

I'd much prefer the smite regen time get tied to KotC. Have it be a base of 30 sec/smite for normal, then -5 seconds per tier of KotC to an end result of 15 secs/smite at KotC3. Then add on an additional -5 on the ToD ring, for a final value of 1 smite every 10 seconds. End result is 72 smites in 10 minutes, or 7.2% of the attacks being smites. Still not much, but better (personally, I think ~10% should be the goal for a Max smite spec).

While I agree with your idea about 1 smite per 10 seconds, I disagree about the idea that it should be limited to KotC, who already have very significant DPS bonuses. Heck, the Paladin who needs it the most is Hunter of the Dead, whose offensive abilities are completely useless in epic and raids. It would certainly need to be all paladins.

Shade
10-27-2011, 11:19 PM
Titan skill = hanging on a ladder. 1 person moves a laser, 1person beats down a pillar, 2 people run cyrstals. zero skill or gear needed.
Hound skill = buffing a few puppy's and watching them fight.

LoB and Abbot I agree though

Go do titan with 12 100% max gear players who have never done it before. You will fail. You wont fail vod.

Even if its only 2 players that need to be skilled and know the strategy, its still a complex raid that requires skill and strategy.

Hound - erm.. Yea again were talkinga bout elite, tell the beholders to watch them fight too, im sure that will be "zero skill".

sirgog
10-27-2011, 11:35 PM
Go do titan with 12 100% max gear players who have never done it before. You will fail. You wont fail vod.

Even if its only 2 players that need to be skilled and know the strategy, its still a complex raid that requires skill and strategy.

Hound - erm.. Yea again were talkinga bout elite, tell the beholders to watch them fight too, im sure that will be "zero skill".

That group may very well fail VOD. Do they think to get rid of the traps? Do they focus DPS on Suulo thinking 'oh, the trash will respawn anyway, get the boss instead'? Do they get caught unaware and wiped by the final bats?

VOD has no gear minimum (unlike eVON6 now, which does require ~510hp on all melees). Enough gear does trivialise it somewhat which isn't true for HOX, but skill does trump gear in it.

I'd never take a well-geared first timer that doesn't listen to elite VOD when a good player on a first life, ungeared 15th-17th level toon is available.

mystafyi
10-27-2011, 11:40 PM
Go do titan with 12 100% max gear players who have never done it before. You will fail.

Well sure, you take 12 noobs that get handed max gear toons, and they will fail every raid.
I didnt realize that you were talking about extreme cases where nobody has done or read up about the raid on wiki.

curboUS
10-27-2011, 11:57 PM
Go do titan with 12 100% max gear players who have never done it before. You will fail. You wont fail vod.
.

12 maxgeared toons doing VoD (all 1rst-timers) will prob wipe at bats :)

Unless ofc the did read a "guide" - but then the same 12 would have an easy time in Titan if they read the Guide for Titan as well.

sephiroth1084
10-27-2011, 11:57 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6403/holyavenger.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....



http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... so we gave it to a pally :D
This should definitely have a bigger base damage die, the crit profile of either a khopesh or a scimitar and some additional modifiers. It is clearly paladin-only, so why not give it some stuff that actually targets paladins?


Maybe it could get an attack bonus ability similar to that assasin weapon from sentinals (midnight greetings?) where its attack bonus is equal to half the number of Paladin levels you possess (min +5)
This looks decent, though I feel like the ability should more heavily benefit pure paladins than splashed ones.

I'd like to see it gain bonuses and abilities based on paladin level in increments.
6 paladin lvls - +5 Holy Burst, Axiomatic Burst, SR 20 (base 1d8/x2 crit)
12 paladin lvls - +5 Holy Burst, Axiomatic Burst, SR 25, Dispelling (base 1d10/x2 crit)
18 paladin lvls - +6 Holy Burst, Axiomatic Burst, SR 30, Greater Dispelling, Radiance (base 2d6/x3 crit)
20 paladin lvls - +8 Holy Burst, Axiomatic Burst, SR 35, Greater Dispelling, Radiance, Righteousness, Pure Good, True Law (base 2d8/x3 crit)
And give an anthem like ability that slowly regens your LoH.
I like this a lot. Regenerate LoH, Smites or Turns, maybe as Khell suggests below.


Nice ideas :)
Basing the effect on PrE seems interesting.
DoS - Regen LoH I like it, but how fast? 1/min? 2 minutes? Faster than that seems a bit excessive, but maybe not.

KotC - Faster regen on smites (30 -45 seconds?) 30 seconds seems good.

HotD - Regen Turns Cool if they gain the ability of Radiant Servants
Another option would be for the sword to enhance those abilities.
LoH could have its healing improved as though you were a paladin 5 levels higher, and could gain the additional effects of the Heal spell or a Greater Restoration effect as a carrier.

Smite Evil could be treated as though you were a paladin 5 levels higher, or could gain carrier effects like Stunning, Sunder, Trip, etc... Or effects similar to (and stacking with) the Exalted Smite line, gaining crit range and multiplier.

Turns could...continue to be useless for anything but powering divine abilities.

I'd totally be down for this requiring some investiture beyond simply acquiring the item and being a paladin. Maybe it would require, say, a Cleansing Essence from Shroud 20, 5 Trophies of War from ToD, some new item from each of Hound and DQ to unlock all of its abilities. Maybe it would require some number of Greater Good Essences or whatever from Cannith crafting.

As it is, the weapon is a bit underwhelming, but close to being cool, and really deserves to be something rather significant in the hands of a paladin--let's make sure that it is! I want to be super excited about this, but as it stands, I'm not, which is incredibly disappointing.

Heck, I would be totally okay with this getting moved to ToD Elite if it meant that it could be more impressive.

Go do titan with 12 100% max gear players who have never done it before. You will fail. You wont fail vod. Titan requires strategy, but very little skill.

Even if its only 2 players that need to be skilled and know the strategy, its still a complex raid that requires skill and strategy.
VoD Elite definitely requires strategy and probably a little less skill than Titan, but is not devoid of skill requirements. Yes, it definitely requires some gear, but mostly just a DR breaker.


Hound - erm.. Yea again were talkinga bout elite, tell the beholders to watch them fight too, im sure that will be "zero skill".
Again, requires strategy, but not much skill. Fighting the beholders is definitely much more about strategy and gear than skill, though skill figures in.

LeLoric
10-28-2011, 12:04 AM
Sword is pretty blah. Some good ideas for changing it in here. As a longsword it is really weak. Keep it a long sword but give it better dmg/crit for sure. Also hopefully there is a GS version for those THF pally's out there.

One thing about the holy avenger is it's supposed to be unique to each pally so maybe give it an unlockable set of effects or give it a set number of crafting levels so that each pally can tailor it to his wants/desires.

oradafu
10-28-2011, 12:14 AM
Sword is pretty blah. Some good ideas for changing it in here. As a longsword it is really weak. Keep it a long sword but give it better dmg/crit for sure. Also hopefully there is a GS version for those THF pally's out there.

One thing about the holy avenger is it's supposed to be unique to each pally so maybe give it an unlockable set of effects or give it a set number of crafting levels so that each pally can tailor it to his wants/desires.

Tooting my own horn here. I had an idea that would make the Holy Avenger unique to each paladin. I know several people disagreed with it, but I still think parts of it has merit since it would make the Holy Avenger unique and customizable to the players needs/wants/playstyle.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=346068

Havok.cry
10-28-2011, 12:26 AM
I like the idea of making it have craftable levels like rune arms have... also they should have one for each faith: scimitar, greatsword, shortsword, longsword, and yes longbow. Also IMHO it should have metalline

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:30 AM
Tooting my own horn here. I had an idea that would make the Holy Avenger unique to each paladin. I know several people disagreed with it, but I still think parts of it has merit since it would make the Holy Avenger unique and customizable to the players needs/wants/playstyle.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=346068
I think that unlocking enhancements for something not inherently tied to a character from the get-go (ie all artificers gain a homunculus at the same time and keep it) would be a programming nightmare.

I also feel like we have plenty of other systems in place to address these sorts of things.

Maybe give the sword several different types of craftability: you can use Cannith crafting for 1 "slot", Shroud small, medium and large ingredients for crafting another 1 (or 1-3) slot(s), epic crafting for another slot, Sentinels crafting, etc... I could totally see a barter UI for this that allowed the use of many different ingredients to apply different sorts of themed enhancements to this.

Infiltraitor
10-28-2011, 12:31 AM
Tooting my own horn here. I had an idea that would make the Holy Avenger unique to each paladin. I know several people disagreed with it, but I still think parts of it has merit since it would make the Holy Avenger unique and customizable to the players needs/wants/playstyle.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=346068

I like the general idea but I REALLY dislike the idea of items that only benefit a single class. While I understand that that was the way it was in PnP (such that the Holy Avenger was absolutely worthless in the hands of a non-paladin), I'd like to see it more in the other direction.

I want to see an item that is good and is customizable in the hands of ANYONE, but with additional bonuses that make it the preferred weapon of a paladin.

Edit: Smite being the preferred bonus so that Paladins suffer less of the autoattacking gameplay.

Havok.cry
10-28-2011, 12:36 AM
Alot more than a paladin could use a holy avenger in PnP... one of the uses of UMD there was to trick an item into believing you were of a different class... my rogues used holy avengers like they were paladins.

edit: Mostly unrelated sorry for the derail :)

Raptormesh
10-28-2011, 12:38 AM
Sword is pretty blah. Some good ideas for changing it in here. As a longsword it is really weak. Keep it a long sword but give it better dmg/crit for sure. Also hopefully there is a GS version for those THF pally's out there.

One thing about the holy avenger is it's supposed to be unique to each pally so maybe give it an unlockable set of effects or give it a set number of crafting levels so that each pally can tailor it to his wants/desires.

If Turbine makes the holy avenger customizable and/or provide paladin ability buffs I will immediately earmark funds set aside for GW2 for future TP purchases especially if it gives extra boost for capstoned paladins. As it is, very much prefer my eFangs.

Scraap
10-28-2011, 12:47 AM
Alot more than a paladin could use a holy avenger in PnP... one of the uses of UMD there was to trick an item into believing you were of a different class... my rogues used holy avengers like they were paladins.

edit: Mostly unrelated sorry for the derail :)

Speaking of... Some simple, already developed, scaling tech would be the epic midnight greetings enhancement bonus, but using, say charisma instead as a boost to the baseline damage end. Must admit I also like the crafting slot notion, though 10 seems a bit excessive.

Hurak
10-28-2011, 01:06 AM
VOD has no gear minimum (unlike eVON6 now, which does require ~510hp on all melees).

Crazy talk. We ran epic Von6 last week with 3 players under 350 hp (one was 290) and they all survived and contributed well. These fictional minimum levels hurt the game, get over the fear of failure.

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 01:10 AM
I'd like the Divine Avenger to end up being somewhat comparable to the fully empowered (triple dragonmarked) Epic Chimera's Fang. Not necessarily covering the same territory, but in the same realm of power, at least against specific targets.

Raptormesh
10-28-2011, 01:13 AM
I'd like the Divine Avenger to end up being somewhat comparable to the fully empowered (triple dragonmarked) Epic Chimera's Fang. Not necessarily covering the same territory, but in the same realm of power, at least against specific targets.

Seconded, with a bit more flexibility one would hope.

aerendhil
10-28-2011, 01:43 AM
Holy Avenger : your choice of a Longsword, Bastard sword or Two-handed sword
Exclusive - BtC
+4
Cold Iron
Holy
Pure Good
SR22
On-hit : dispel magic (CL=10)
Break Enchantment 1/Day (CL=10)
Min Lvl 10 - Paladin Only (no UMD)


Epic Holy Avenger : previous weapon upgrade
Exclusive - BtC
Holy strike : this weapon has an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your paladin levels (min 4 , max 10)
Metalline
Holy Burst
Greater Good
Radiance
SR34
True Seeing
On-hit : greater dispel magic (CL=20)
Break Enchantment 3/Day (CL=20)
Red Augment Slot
Min Lvl 20 - Paladin Only (no UMD)

most relevant part in bold

noinfo
10-28-2011, 01:56 AM
Nice ideas :)

DoS - Regen LoH

KotC - Faster regen on smites (30 -45 seconds?)

HotD - Regen Turns

I would like to see something similar for pallies to a Chimera Fang.

Change to Bastard Sword base damage 2d8

PRE of anytype 1
gain holy burst
gain bastard sword prof

PRE 2
gain silver
Gain True Law

PRE 3
Radiance
SR/Dispel etc
crit range 18+
rightiousness

Auran82
10-28-2011, 02:16 AM
*cough*on hit chance to apply divine punishment, stacks 3 times, no metas*cough*

danielhrobbins
10-28-2011, 02:19 AM
VOD isn't a gear/stat check at all, it's a healer skill test.



It's an assassin's playground. :)

TDarkchylde
10-28-2011, 04:36 AM
I happen to like this new sword as-is. Arising (my WSS 15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 Ftr) would have a field day with this.

Anyone tested it with a splash paladin yet? I'd hate to think all those yummy bonuses would be limited to capstone paladins.

FranOhmsford
10-28-2011, 04:43 AM
I only read page 1 {about Omniscience} But...Boy are you guys jaded.

I've also seen the other thread about Divine Vengeance and all the people complaining about it ONLY being a long sword.

I'll say again - Boy are you guys Jaded!

AmatsukaIncarnate
10-28-2011, 04:47 AM
I only read page 1 {about Omniscience} But...Boy are you guys jaded.

I've also seen the other thread about Divine Vengeance and all the people complaining about it ONLY being a long sword.

I'll say again - Boy are you guys Jaded!

Compare this with any ToD ring since those are what primarily are in people's ring slots.
Or any other min level 20 loot for a general reference...
Very VERY niche item

FranOhmsford
10-28-2011, 05:06 AM
Compare this with any ToD ring since those are what primarily are in people's ring slots.
Or any other min level 20 loot for a general reference...
Very VERY niche item

OK I'm VIP so this doesn't apply to me BUT Vale, Gianthold and Delera's are the three main packs I see people telling newbies to get.

I personally consider Phiarlan Carnival, Red Fens and Sands to be must haves.

ToD is in none of these packs.

Now this bit does apply to me - I've completed Shroud on 9 occasions on my main and completed my first Greensteel Goggles.
I've also completed HoX, Reaver and Titan on that character.

I have not managed to even flag for ToD yet and have not managed to find a group that hasn't wiped in VoD.

BUT...VoD is part of Vale meaning everyone who's been told they absolutely must have Vale has the opportunity to get this ring.
ToD however....?

grayham
10-28-2011, 05:07 AM
Just my 2 bits....

-I think Divine Vengeance is pretty neat. Yes there are better situational alternatives, but the views of forumites/lammalanders are not representative of the masses which leads me to my next point...

-There will be many a mad scramble for this when U12 goes live. Oh yes.

Terebinthia
10-28-2011, 06:45 AM
I like the look of the longsword for my Superior Soul, actually, as a debuffer.

Wonder what it looks like if you give it just to a lawful person... When I've done my Mabar duties I may eat an alignment change to lawful neutral on Lama and go hunting for it. Anyone want to help?

sweez
10-28-2011, 07:33 AM
Anyone want to help?

No

FuzzyDuck81
10-28-2011, 07:59 AM
The sword looks interesting, though shouldnt it be silver & not cold iron, in keeping with the fine tradition of having a bane weapon for the boss in the bosses own loot chest? :)

sweez
10-28-2011, 08:01 AM
The sword looks interesting, though shouldnt it be silver & not cold iron, in keeping with the fine tradition of having a bane weapon for the boss in the bosses own loot chest? :)

So, kinda like in DQ/Chrono? Oh, wait :p

RedDragonScale
10-28-2011, 08:31 AM
IIRC, wasn't the Holy Avenger in 1st Ed. AD&D +10 against Chaotic Evil opponents??

There's no weapon in DDO to my knowledge that acts differently against so specific an alignment (but there is Stability which while not being a weapon, is specifically targeted for True Neutral-types). Couldn't we then just make this new VoD sword +10 to everything of Evil alignment instead? Maybe even make it 2d8 damage?

I would not be in favor of making it a Bastard Sword/Great Sword nor would I be in favor of modifying the traditional Longsword's crit profile for it. The +10 to Hit and Damage vs. Evil and the damage dice increase to 2d8 would be just fine IMHO.


I REALLY do like the idea of this sword. It just needs a little tweeking though. Great job Devs!

Qezuzu
10-28-2011, 09:33 AM
Give that poor thing Metalline! It's completely useless against Devils, which Paladins are supposed to excel against.

Add a Lightning-strike like enchantment, but for thematic reasons, make it Good damage, eg. "Punishing Strike: This weapon has a chance to hit its target with a painful amount of holy damage." Requires Paladin capstone.

Base damage to 2d8, crit multiplier to x3. Enhancement bonus to 1/2 Paladin level.

Have the Greater Dispel effect be CL (20+1/2 Paladin level+d20) against (11+enemy CL).

elraido
10-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Good start to the weapon. Needs some tweeking though.

Base damage, either increase it to 2d8 or make the crit multiplier x3
Add banishing

mystafyi
10-28-2011, 09:36 AM
Have the Greater Dispel effect be CL (20+1/2 Paladin level+d20) against (11+enemy CL).

Yes so it would be perfect for dispelling dots and other debuffs on bosses. worse then useless effect since mobs typically dont have buffs on them.

elraido
10-28-2011, 09:44 AM
Give that poor thing Metalline! It's completely useless against Devils, which Paladins are supposed to excel against.

Add a Lightning-strike like enchantment, but for thematic reasons, make it Good damage, eg. "Punishing Strike: This weapon has a chance to hit its target with a painful amount of holy damage." Requires Paladin capstone.

Base damage to 2d8, crit multiplier to x3. Enhancement bonus to 1/2 Paladin level.

Have the Greater Dispel effect be CL (20+1/2 Paladin level+d20) against (11+enemy CL).

You do realize you just made it fly right past Epic Chimeras Fang in terms of damage, right? Like it waved to it and just kept right on going.

Cyr
10-28-2011, 09:46 AM
I would like to request that the pali who got that weapon do some testing for the community as to what debuffs and dots it dispels.

Should be a good thing to know so everyone can yell in party chat "put that thing away!" when they see someone pull it out in a raid.

Seamonkeysix
10-28-2011, 10:01 AM
The sword looks interesting, though shouldnt it be silver & not cold iron, in keeping with the fine tradition of having a bane weapon for the boss in the bosses own loot chest? :)

Make it metalline and banishing (with the other perks it has). Then it is a ML 18 weapon worth swinging as a paladin, IMO.

gloopygloop
10-28-2011, 10:03 AM
You do realize you just made it fly right past Epic Chimeras Fang in terms of damage, right? Like it waved to it and just kept right on going.

With the To Hit problems that many Paladins have, eFang's +10 To Hit still gives the eFang a significant DPS advantage against serious enemies.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 10:08 AM
They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add:
+10
Greater "evil" bane (greater bane against all evil mobs)
"evil" slaying (vorpal against all evil mobs)
Pure good
Holy
Metalline
Good version of vampirism


Paladins really need a boost, and this would go a long way.

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:08 AM
With the To Hit problems that many Paladins have, eFang's +10 To Hit still gives the eFang a significant DPS advantage against serious enemies.

You did see that the quote I showed that he wants it to go to 2d8 AND x3 crit. If he did that, the crit damage would far surpass the efang. My greensteel khopeshes normally crit for around 145 base damage. Those are 1d10x3. My efang (with all the dragonmark fears) normally maxes out at around 125 base damage. I normally don't miss that much on epics even to begin with, so the difference with the To Hit doesn't make that much of a difference.

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:08 AM
They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add:
+10
Greater "evil" bane (greater bane against all evil mobs)
"evil" slaying (vorpal against all evil mobs)
Pure good
Holy
Metalline
Good version of vampirism


Paladins really need a boost, and this would go a long way.

It is not an epic item. It is regular raid loot.

Qezuzu
10-28-2011, 10:08 AM
Yes so it would be perfect for dispelling dots and other debuffs on bosses. worse then useless effect since mobs typically dont have buffs on them.

Just add an exemption for harmful spells.


You do realize you just made it fly right past Epic Chimeras Fang in terms of damage, right? Like it waved to it and just kept right on going.

Greensteel is higher damage than most epic weapons. Elite VoD is a lot harder than Shroud. Epic Sentinels are easier than Elite VoD. It's only higher damage on pure Paladins.

Those are suggestions. This weapon should at least bypass DR and rival the other high-end weapons.

voodoogroves
10-28-2011, 10:10 AM
It is not an epic item. It is regular raid loot.

That was his point - make it upgradable TO an epic item.

Truga
10-28-2011, 10:11 AM
The sword looks interesting, though shouldnt it be silver & not cold iron, in keeping with the fine tradition of having a bane weapon for the boss in the bosses own loot chest? :)

Actually the boss would have a bane weapon for his enemies. Demons are pretty much THE enemy when it comes to devils so it makes plenty sense.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 10:11 AM
It is not an epic item. It is regular raid loot.

Let me repeat myself: "They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add..."

Qezuzu
10-28-2011, 10:11 AM
It is not an epic item. It is regular raid loot.

Regular raid loot drops on all difficulties. This doesn't.

Greensteel weapons have many very good enhancements, but come from a rather easy raid.

The suggestions being put out are arbitrary, we're just saying this weapon should at least bypass devil DR and be in the same DPS-range as other common Paladin choices.

SableShadow
10-28-2011, 10:12 AM
It is not an epic item. It is regular raid loot.

Then they should yank it out of regular l00tz and make it an epic item.

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:20 AM
Let me repeat myself: "They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add..."

So there should be ONE regular raid loot item in the game that is upgradeable to an epic item? That doesn't make any sense at all. Not only that, but then it would need to be made level 20.


Then they should yank it out of regular l00tz and make it an epic item.

What missions should they put it in if it isn't going to be VoD? Not that it would matter much.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 10:23 AM
So there should be ONE regular raid loot item in the game that is upgradeable to an epic item? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Why not?
There is only one item that has different stats depending on which class is using it, do you think that that doesn't make any sense at all aswell?


Not only that, but then it would need to be made level 20.

Yep.

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:24 AM
Why not?
There is only one item that has different stats depending on which class is using it, do you think that that doesn't make any sense at all aswell?



Yep.

You aren't thinking about it logistically. Do you want this to be a raid item or an epic item that drops out of a mission that doesn't have any other epic items...

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 10:28 AM
You aren't thinking about it logistically. Do you want this to be a raid item or an epic item that drops out of a mission that doesn't have any other epic items...

A raid item that can be gotten from a raid with other raid items and upgradeable to epic with things gotten from epic raids that drops other items which upgrades nonepics to epics.

I really don't see the problem.

BlackSteel
10-28-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm waiting to see the heavy repeater from Hound which shoots xoriat bees......

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:32 AM
A raid item that can be gotten from a raid with other raid items and upgradeable to epic with things gotten from epic raids that drops other items which upgrades nonepics to epics.

I really don't see the problem.

You do realize they would need to make an epic VoD, add shards and seals and scrolls to make this happen right? That is a lot of resources to do that for one item at this point. IF they wanted to upgrade it, I can see them making it like what they are doing with Gianthold and Abbott, but I do not see them making VoD an epic raid any time soon.

Necrological
10-28-2011, 10:34 AM
I would like to request that the pali who got that weapon do some testing for the community as to what debuffs and dots it dispels.

Should be a good thing to know so everyone can yell in party chat "put that thing away!" when they see someone pull it out in a raid.

will do so when the lam server is back up since its doing an update.

voodoogroves
10-28-2011, 10:38 AM
You do realize they would need to make an epic VoD, add shards and seals and scrolls to make this happen right? That is a lot of resources to do that for one item at this point. IF they wanted to upgrade it, I can see them making it like what they are doing with Gianthold and Abbott, but I do not see them making VoD an epic raid any time soon.

They could put an epic item as a drop in Proof is in the Poison if they wanted.

Or make it so you could put a string of prayer beads and scroll of blur into the stone of change it it spit out an epic (whatever).

Plenty of epic items are NOT made from seals/scrolls/shards ... cove, mabar, etc.



He's not suggesting they make an epic VOD - he's suggesting they add a recipe to the epic altar where if you stick this level 20 item in AND 30 epic tokens, it gives you back an epic version of the item (which would need to be created).

Darkrok
10-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Sword is pretty blah. Some good ideas for changing it in here. As a longsword it is really weak. Keep it a long sword but give it better dmg/crit for sure. Also hopefully there is a GS version for those THF pally's out there.

One thing about the holy avenger is it's supposed to be unique to each pally so maybe give it an unlockable set of effects or give it a set number of crafting levels so that each pally can tailor it to his wants/desires.

I've got an insane idea for the Holy Avenger weapon. Make it a bound to character scroll that when read provides a feat to upgrade the summoned weapons from Paladin's Holy Sword spell. Reading the scroll would not consume it (allowing TR's to re-read it at the appropriate level).

Downsides are that you'd have to summon it each time you log in. It can't be crafted with rituals or cannith crafting. Upsides though are pretty big. 1 item = works for all paladins. If you change your weapon type on your paladin no problem! Just summon the new weapon type. And if Turbine makes changes to the weapon in the future they don't have to worry about having problems with the old version of the item. Players just summon it again and get the new version right away.

SableShadow
10-28-2011, 10:43 AM
What missions should they put it in if it isn't going to be VoD? Not that it would matter much.

/shrug

Desert is where our demons are.

But I think that's really irrelevant; the fundamental question is "where should a holy avenger fall in the power spectrum?".

Old school AD&D would probably put it up there near the artifact level; 3.0/3.5 would rank it in the "really good pali weapon" category (where it is now, if I read the screenie correctly).

Really depends on where any particular person thinks it should rank in the spectrum.

Qezuzu
10-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Maybe make it as good as Holy Sword spell on a first life Paladin, and ramp up its damage for each Paladin past life you have, and with 3 past lives you have "best possible weapon for a Paladin in all situations, slightly above the second best possible."

That'd be a rather cool and unique item.

elraido
10-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Maybe make it as good as Holy Sword spell on a first life Paladin, and ramp up its damage for each Paladin past life you have, and with 3 past lives you have "best possible weapon for a Paladin in all situations, slightly above the second best possible."

That'd be a rather cool and unique item.

Oh Lord no! The grind...oh the grind. I refuse to TR my main paladin. He has too much into tomes and waaaaaaay too much favor to do that.

Jay203
10-28-2011, 11:13 AM
What missions should they put it in if it isn't going to be VoD? Not that it would matter much.

what about the epic version of "A Relic of Sovereign Past"? :p

elraido
10-28-2011, 11:14 AM
what about the epic version of "A Relic of Sovereign Past"? :p

Sweet baby Jesus! Epic Tysus!!! I command this to happen!!!!!

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 11:24 AM
You do realize they would need to make an epic VoD, add shards and seals and scrolls to make this happen right? That is a lot of resources to do that for one item at this point. IF they wanted to upgrade it, I can see them making it like what they are doing with Gianthold and Abbott, but I do not see them making VoD an epic raid any time soon.

What? No, they would not need to make epic VoD.
I will repeat myself again (because you clearly don't get it): "They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add..."

Why the heck would they need to add shards and seals and scrolls to make the weapon upgradeable by using raid tokens only? There is something that doesn't make any sense at all!

FuzzyDuck81
10-28-2011, 11:25 AM
I've got an insane idea for the Holy Avenger weapon. Make it a bound to character scroll that when read provides a feat to upgrade the summoned weapons from Paladin's Holy Sword spell. Reading the scroll would not consume it (allowing TR's to re-read it at the appropriate level).

Downsides are that you'd have to summon it each time you log in. It can't be crafted with rituals or cannith crafting. Upsides though are pretty big. 1 item = works for all paladins. If you change your weapon type on your paladin no problem! Just summon the new weapon type. And if Turbine makes changes to the weapon in the future they don't have to worry about having problems with the old version of the item. Players just summon it again and get the new version right away.

/signed

This would be very cool

elraido
10-28-2011, 11:36 AM
What? No, they would not need to make epic VoD.
I will repeat myself again (because you clearly don't get it): "They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add..."

Why the heck would they need to add shards and seals and scrolls to make the weapon upgradeable by using raid tokens only? There is something that doesn't make any sense at all!

So, in order to upgrade it (a level 18 item) you need to wait until you are level 20 and are able to run epic missions to get the tokens to add an effect. That doesn't make any sense at all! What alter would you use to upgrade it? The one in the market doesn't take epic tokens. The one in the 12, you need scrolls, shards, seals etc to upgrade as well. So, you would need to alter the code on one of those alters (we all know how well that works out for turbine when they alter preexisting code) in order for your idea to work.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Why are you making such a big deal out of this?


So, in order to upgrade it (a level 18 item) you need to wait until you are level 20 and are able to run epic missions to get the tokens to add an effect. That doesn't make any sense at all!

That's how almost ALL epic items works. Maybe it doesn't make any sense to you, but to the rest of us it does.
Where is the problem again?


What alter would you use to upgrade it? The one in the market doesn't take epic tokens. The one in the 12, you need scrolls, shards, seals etc to upgrade as well. So, you would need to alter the code on one of those alters (we all know how well that works out for turbine when they alter preexisting code) in order for your idea to work.

Epic items are not a result of a phenomena that the devs discovered in the game code. They could easily change what you need to upgrade something.

Heck, just put it in the epic barter shop, can't get any simpler than that.

Zeruell
10-28-2011, 11:45 AM
So, in order to upgrade it (a level 18 item) you need to wait until you are level 20 and are able to run epic missions to get the tokens to add an effect. That doesn't make any sense at all! What alter would you use to upgrade it? The one in the market doesn't take epic tokens. The one in the 12, you need scrolls, shards, seals etc to upgrade as well. So, you would need to alter the code on one of those alters (we all know how well that works out for turbine when they alter preexisting code) in order for your idea to work.

Point of note: item slotting and item revision upgrades do not use scrolls, shards, or seals. The epic altar handles these without issue.

Mighty_Bozo
10-28-2011, 11:58 AM
Why not make this new weapon an ingredient for a more powerful shard for cannith crafting that we'd call Holy Avenger. Make it +14 Potential, so it'd be an unbound shard for lvl 1 crafter to make, but you'd still need to use it as it is while u get someone to get you the potential shards required for it or do it yourself. Anything like that, but make it in a way it can be upgradeable, as a base item is fine, but it's not worth wielding it for endgame content.

elraido
10-28-2011, 11:58 AM
Why are you making such a big deal out of this?

That's how almost ALL epic items works. Maybe it doesn't make any sense to you, but to the rest of us it does.
Where is the problem again?

Epic items are not a result of a phenomena that the devs discovered in the game code. They could easily change what you need to upgrade something.

Heck, just put it in the epic barter shop, can't get any simpler than that.

But you said it your self, this wouldn't be an epic item!!!!! Why give it the advantages of an epic item when it isn't one!!!! That is the point I am getting at. It is just a raid item. Plain and simple. There is no epic VoD, so there should be no need to upgrade the item with raid tokens!! Once they make an epic VoD, go gangbusters on it! There is just ZERO instances in the game where ONE item out gets upgraded to basically epic status with out going threw epic quests. (events don't really count, they are limited time events.)

The problem is, you want an epic weapon out of a regular raid by bypassing all the game mechanics used to make epic weapons.

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:03 PM
/shrug

Desert is where our demons are.

But I think that's really irrelevant; the fundamental question is "where should a holy avenger fall in the power spectrum?".

Old school AD&D would probably put it up there near the artifact level; 3.0/3.5 would rank it in the "really good pali weapon" category (where it is now, if I read the screenie correctly).

Really depends on where any particular person thinks it should rank in the spectrum.
I feel like it should be generally strong enough that a paladin would want this to be their main weapon in most cases. It's the only weapon in the game tailored to a specific class, and I feel like it would be a complete waste of effort and opportunity for awesomeness if it ended up being weaker than, say, a Shroud weapon. Weaker than a Cannith raid weapon...I think that would be reasonable, as those are pretty strong and rather difficult to fully upgrade...unless this became upgradeable using the same materials. That actually would be my preference, for it to be on par with the weapons that come out of LoB and MA fully upgraded, but using materials from those raids, or that are just as difficult to acquire (difficult, not long...that is, just as difficult to get as stuff from Epic LoB).


They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add:
+10
Greater "evil" bane (greater bane against all evil mobs)
"evil" slaying (vorpal against all evil mobs)
Pure good
Holy
Metalline
Good version of vampirism


Paladins really need a boost, and this would go a long way.
Greater Evil Bane sounds pretty good. I think that if they went that route, it should actually become:
1d8 19-20/x3
+6
Greater Evil Bane
Greater Chaotic Bane
Holy Burst
Axiomatic Burst
Metalline
Radiance
Greater Dispelling (paladin level for CL)
SR 15+paladin level
and then something that enhances LoH, smite evil and/or turn undead, possibly according to PrE chosen.

That would be a rather ridiculous weapon vs. Chaotic Evil opponents, and a solid one against opponents that were either non-evil or non-chaotic, which I think is reasonable.

Oh, and there should be a Greatsword version of this with a x3 crit multiplier, but standard range.

So there should be ONE regular raid loot item in the game that is upgradeable to an epic item? That doesn't make any sense at all. Not only that, but then it would need to be made level 20.


Why not? There is only one piece of raid loot in the game that is upgradeable in the Dreamforge (Dreamspitter). There is only one piece of raid loot in the game (I think) with no ML (Quiver of Alacrity), and only a couple that are BtA rather than BtC (Dreamspitter again, and I think one other).

The thing has to go somewhere, and it should be strong enough that it is actually something most paladins really want to use.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 12:08 PM
But you said it your self, this wouldn't be an epic item!!!!! Why give it the advantages of an epic item when it isn't one!!!! That is the point I am getting at. It is just a raid item. Plain and simple. There is no epic VoD, so there should be no need to upgrade the item with raid tokens!! Once they make an epic VoD, go gangbusters on it! There is just ZERO instances in the game where ONE item out gets upgraded to basically epic status with out going threw epic quests. (events don't really count, they are limited time events.)

The problem is, you want an epic weapon out of a regular raid by bypassing all the game mechanics used to make epic weapons.

Ofcourse it would be an epic item! I never said that it wasn't.
Yes, you are correct that it is just a raid item, which is why I suggested that the upgrade should require epic raid tokens.
The fact that there is no epic vod is irrelevant. Epic raid tokens are all the same, no matter where you got them.
There is also no law of nature that says that you can only make an epic item if the base item drops in a quest or raid that can be run on epic.

Are you saying that my suggestion is bad because it's something new? Well, that's just ridiculous.
You would have to go through 30 epic raids to upgrade the item, is that not enough?


Why is that a problem? What is wrong with a new way to make one item epic?
It's a special item, why can't it get special epic treatment?
Is there actually anything wrong here or do you just not like change and new ideas?

Scraap
10-28-2011, 12:09 PM
I feel like it should be generally strong enough that a paladin would want this to be their main weapon in most cases. It's the only weapon in the game tailored to a specific class, and I feel like it would be a complete waste of effort and opportunity for awesomeness if it ended up being weaker than, say, a Shroud weapon. Weaker than a Cannith raid weapon...I think that would be reasonable, as those are pretty strong and rather difficult to fully upgrade...unless this became upgradeable using the same materials. That actually would be my preference, for it to be on par with the weapons that come out of LoB and MA fully upgraded, but using materials from those raids, or that are just as difficult to acquire (difficult, not long...that is, just as difficult to get as stuff from Epic LoB).

That actually makes the most sense, come to think of it. Say, ability to throw it into the last shroud altar with a t3 shard? That'd add the customizability, while keeping it internally consistent with the pack.

Absolute-Omniscience
10-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Ofcourse it would be an epic item! I never said that it wasn't.
Yes, you are correct that it is just a raid item, which is why I suggested that the upgrade should require epic raid tokens.
The fact that there is no epic vod is irrelevant. Epic raid tokens are all the same, no matter where you got them.
There is also no law of nature that says that you can only make an epic item if the base item drops in a quest or raid that can be run on epic.

Are you saying that my suggestion is bad because it's something new? Well, that's just ridiculous.
You would have to go through 30 epic raids to upgrade the item, is that not enough?

Why is that a problem? What is wrong with a new way to make one item epic?
It's a special item, why can't it get special epic treatment?
Is there actually anything wrong here or do you just not like change and new ideas?

Bolded for emphasis.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 12:14 PM
Greater Evil Bane sounds pretty good. I think that if they went that route, it should actually become:
1d8 19-20/x3
+6
Greater Evil Bane
Greater Chaotic Bane
Holy Burst
Axiomatic Burst
Metalline
Radiance
Greater Dispelling (paladin level for CL)
SR 15+paladin level
and then something that enhances LoH, smite evil and/or turn undead, possibly according to PrE chosen.

That would be a rather ridiculous weapon vs. Chaotic Evil opponents, and a solid one against opponents that were either non-evil or non-chaotic, which I think is reasonable.

Oh, and there should be a Greatsword version of this with a x3 crit multiplier, but standard range.

Yeah, it should be more powerful than any other weapon. It would be an interesting way to balance paladins.

A two handed version is a good idea.

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 12:15 PM
I only read page 1 {about Omniscience} But...Boy are you guys jaded.

I've also seen the other thread about Divine Vengeance and all the people complaining about it ONLY being a long sword.

I'll say again - Boy are you guys Jaded!

It is pretty sad that a sword like that is considered "trash".

Tells you just how Monty Haul this campaign has become...

The devs have given us just way too much stuff.

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 12:18 PM
I'm waiting to see the heavy repeater from Hound which shoots xoriat bees......

LOL... Oh my God that's awesome....

Homer Simpson: Or what? You'll release the dogs or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you?

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:19 PM
That actually makes the most sense, come to think of it. Say, ability to throw it into the last shroud altar with a t3 shard? That'd add the customizability, while keeping it internally consistent with the pack.
I think it's okay for a few items to not be internally consistent with their respective packs. We have the Dreamspitter (in GH, needs Dreaming Dark) and Gem of Many Facets (in DA, needs Red Fens), and I'm pretty sure there are others.

This weapon is unique, and warrants unique mechanics to support it, including having it upgradeable in a way that other raid loot is not, and having it require loot from other quests to do so.

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 12:20 PM
What? No, they would not need to make epic VoD.
I will repeat myself again (because you clearly don't get it): "They should make it upgradeable with 30 epic raid tokens to add..."

Why the heck would they need to add shards and seals and scrolls to make the weapon upgradeable by using raid tokens only? There is something that doesn't make any sense at all!

WHat doesn't make sense is getting the base item by doing an easy raid, then completing a bunch of easy epics to get tokens..

If you're going to make a powerful epic item, it should be hard to get. Your plan makes it easy to get.

Edit:


Bolded for emphasis.


You would have to go through 30 epic raids to upgrade the item, is that not enough?

Ah! 30 RAID tokens, not dungeon tokens.

That's a little more fair.

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 12:21 PM
I feel like it should be generally strong enough that a paladin would want this to be their main weapon in most cases. It's the only weapon in the game tailored to a specific class, and I feel like it would be a complete waste of effort and opportunity for awesomeness if it ended up being weaker than, say, a Shroud weapon. Weaker than a Cannith raid weapon...I think that would be reasonable, as those are pretty strong and rather difficult to fully upgrade...unless this became upgradeable using the same materials. That actually would be my preference, for it to be on par with the weapons that come out of LoB and MA fully upgraded, but using materials from those raids, or that are just as difficult to acquire (difficult, not long...that is, just as difficult to get as stuff from Epic LoB).

I agree 100%... Very sad if they make a cool weapon JUST for paladins, and hardly any paladins use it.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 12:24 PM
WHat doesn't make sense is getting the base item by doing an easy raid, then completing a bunch of easy epics to get tokens..

If you're going to make a powerful epic item, it should be hard to get. Your plan makes it easy to get.

If running epic raids is easy, then many powerful items are easy to get.
30 raid tokens is plenty. But that was just an example to show the principle.

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:30 PM
If running epic raids is easy, then many powerful items are easy to get.
30 raid tokens is plenty. But that was just an example to show the principle.
And I agree that it would be silly for the thing to become very powerful in such an easy fashion, which is why I suggested using the ingredients for alchemical crafting from Lord of Blades to do the crafting on this, or special drops from elite Shroud, Hound, ToD (maybe Abbot and LoB as well).

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 12:44 PM
If running epic raids is easy, then many powerful items are easy to get.
30 raid tokens is plenty. But that was just an example to show the principle.

I edited my post.. I didn't see the RAID part... I was thinking 30 dungeon tokens.

30 RAID tokens is a bit more fair.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 12:45 PM
And I agree that it would be silly for the thing to become very powerful in such an easy fashion, which is why I suggested using the ingredients for alchemical crafting from Lord of Blades to do the crafting on this, or special drops from elite Shroud, Hound, ToD (maybe Abbot and LoB as well).

Running 30 epic raids is not really easier than any other epic items.

Asmodeus451
10-28-2011, 12:52 PM
I'm waiting to see the heavy repeater from Hound which shoots xoriat bees......

/drool

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:53 PM
Running 30 epic raids is not really easier than any other epic items.
I think you quoted the wrong post.

Vordax
10-28-2011, 12:56 PM
Could add "Craftable +5" to it.. give it some options. Personally I like the idea of adding a Craftable option to raid items in general.

Could make a new option for colorless (or some other color) slots to slot it with +5 Craftable also.

Vordax

somenewnoob
10-28-2011, 12:59 PM
Could add "Craftable +5" to it.. give it some options. Personally I like the idea of adding a Craftable option to raid items in general.

Could make a new option for colorless (or some other color) slots to slot it with +5 Craftable also.

Vordax

That would be a nice little change. I like that idea a lot.

elraido
10-28-2011, 01:15 PM
It is pretty sad that a sword like that is considered "trash".

Tells you just how Monty Haul this campaign has become...

The devs have given us just way too much stuff.

This. This is also one reason why I would be very hesitant to add anything to it beyond making the base damage 2d8 OR the crit profile x3 OR 18-20 range.. Being able to craft on it, while it would be nice, would simply make it way over powered. Ever since the addition of greensteel (items were becoming over powered at that time) and then epic SoS, everyone compairs an item to it. If it doesn't come near an epic SoS, the item is gimp and shouldn't even exist. That is the same issue with what is going on with this item. It is a very decent item. Is it great...no. With some minor tweeking, it can be an item that every paladin should strive for.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 01:36 PM
This. This is also one reason why I would be very hesitant to add anything to it beyond making the base damage 2d8 OR the crit profile x3 OR 18-20 range.. Being able to craft on it, while it would be nice, would simply make it way over powered. Ever since the addition of greensteel (items were becoming over powered at that time) and then epic SoS, everyone compairs an item to it. If it doesn't come near an epic SoS, the item is gimp and shouldn't even exist. That is the same issue with what is going on with this item. It is a very decent item. Is it great...no. With some minor tweeking, it can be an item that every paladin should strive for.

Some "minor tweaking" isn't enough. It's a really bad weapon. Paladins are also so far behind in DPS that even if they this sword would make Esos look weak it's not really overpowered.

Jandric
10-28-2011, 01:44 PM
Because so much of a Paladin's damage dealing ability through smites and Divine Sacrifice is tied up in crit modifiers, this falls far behind of any moderately attainable Cannith crafted beaters or even the Holy Sword spell when used to create khopeshes. Add in its inability to break the DR of devil bosses, and this is a niche weapon at best. This weapon, at a minimum, needs metalline to be useful- and a higher base damage or crit profile would help make it decent. As it stands right now, it's just a Mari beater for people that don't have Min IIs or haven't bothered getting cold iron blanks for cannith crafting- and that's a shame.

elraido
10-28-2011, 01:54 PM
Some "minor tweaking" isn't enough. It's a really bad weapon. Paladins are also so far behind in DPS that even if they this sword would make Esos look weak it's not really overpowered.

What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off...not all classes should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.

LeLoric
10-28-2011, 01:55 PM
Forget shroud and canith items for comparing this sword.

It is arguably worse than enduring conviction.

It just doesn't even have a niche use at the current power level.

elraido
10-28-2011, 01:56 PM
Because so much of a Paladin's damage dealing ability through smites and Divine Sacrifice is tied up in crit modifiers, this falls far behind of any moderately attainable Cannith crafted beaters or even the Holy Sword spell when used to create khopeshes. Add in its inability to break the DR of devil bosses, and this is a niche weapon at best. This weapon, at a minimum, needs metalline to be useful- and a higher base damage or crit profile would help make it decent. As it stands right now, it's just a Mari beater for people that don't have Min IIs or haven't bothered getting cold iron blanks for cannith crafting- and that's a shame.

That is exactly what I am proposing for them to do with it. Higher base damage (2d8) or 3x crit, or 18-20 range. Honestly I think the 18-20 range would be the best. It would work well with the blasts of the weapon and also with the crit increasing abilities of smite and divine sac.

Aaxeyu
10-28-2011, 01:56 PM
What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability.

Not in endgame.

elraido
10-28-2011, 01:58 PM
Forget shroud and canith items for comparing this sword.

It is arguably worse than enduring conviction.

It just doesn't even have a niche use at the current power level.

That was one thing I was thinking about actually. How is this really different than enduring conviction....they basically traded out banishing for radiance and tacked on some other minor things (cold iron and sr and greater dispel). With the addition to GEOB to E.C., this actually almost seems like it will fall behind in DPS to it.

elraido
10-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Not in endgame.

You talking just epics?

Zeruell
10-28-2011, 02:04 PM
That was one thing I was thinking about actually. How is this really different than enduring conviction....they basically traded out banishing for radiance and tacked on some other minor things (cold iron and sr and greater dispel). With the addition to GEOB to E.C., this actually almost seems like it will fall behind in DPS to it.

Wasn't Enduring Conviction getting Cold Iron as well? Maybe I dreamed that up in a fit of madness...
At the very least, the to-hit modifier does favor Enduring Conviction over this.

LeLoric
10-28-2011, 02:09 PM
Wasn't Enduring Conviction getting Cold Iron as well? Maybe I dreamed that up in a fit of madness...
At the very least, the to-hit modifier does favor Enduring Conviction over this.

The thing says remove evil outsider bane add greater outsider bane no mention of cold iron.

So it appears that any new convictions to drop will have eob but not sure if anything else removed, maybe banishing?

No mention of cold iron.

Sarisa
10-28-2011, 02:34 PM
(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.


Crazy talk. We ran epic Von6 last week with 3 players under 350 hp (one was 290) and they all survived and contributed well. These fictional minimum levels hurt the game, get over the fear of failure.

And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

elraido
10-28-2011, 02:37 PM
(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.



And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

I don't know what type of parties you go with, but it is an easy mission to complete. Heck I have soloed it on my paladin. There shouldn't really be any pots used. The survive, those lower hp people just need to let the higher hp take aggro of the trash, then they can go in behind and attack.

Kmnh
10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
(Tried to post this earlier, but apparently I found a forum bug that gave me a POST not implemented error)

My opinion on VoD is that it's control of the trash and resource management that really matters. CC or Kill the trash fast enough, then the healers won't have to burn much SP through the fights until the dangerous parts at the end. Without proper control, then it does turn into an SP-fest.

PUG VoD's lately (not semi-private guild and alliances groups) tend to have casters that don't want to buff, don't want to recon (if there is a WF tank), and don't want to CC. They think their job is DoT'ing Sully, and taking aggro, then running around the room like idiots. It's the healers that end up paying for that, even when you let that caster die.

The other problem are high DPS people who refuse to set aside their ego and let the tank properly gain aggro. This especially matters in the second phase when Sully Chains. Many of these people are heavily geared, and still don't understand simple aggro control.



And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

I think you need to start letting stupid people die.

It feels good, really. The first time I've let a dumb sorcerer die on a raid, a cackled maniacally for a full minute before tossing him a raise. The time-out helped the tank estabilish aggro :D

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 02:57 PM
This. This is also one reason why I would be very hesitant to add anything to it beyond making the base damage 2d8 OR the crit profile x3 OR 18-20 range.. Being able to craft on it, while it would be nice, would simply make it way over powered. Ever since the addition of greensteel (items were becoming over powered at that time) and then epic SoS, everyone compairs an item to it. If it doesn't come near an epic SoS, the item is gimp and shouldn't even exist. That is the same issue with what is going on with this item. It is a very decent item. Is it great...no. With some minor tweeking, it can be an item that every paladin should strive for.
Before tossing out outrageous claims, why not run some numbers through Barrage?

I for one don't feel this should be more DPS than a barbarian wielding an ESoS, as that would be preposterous, but it should definitely be considerably better than greensteel and at least end up comparable to the top tier epic weapons a paladin would be using. I'd be happy if it were situationally better than a paladin wielding an ESoS. Why? Because the weapon should get used! You want to complain about item inflation? Do it somewhere that such an argument is relevant. You're not going to get item deflation reversed here, so new stuff necessarily has to fit into that continuum somewhere, and guess what? This is currently a rather mediocre item.

I think it would be stupid for the devs to finally release the equivalent of a Holy Avenger, only to have it get used by a small fraction of the paladin playerbase for 2 levels before getting tossed in the bank to collect dust.

What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off...not all classes should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.That's not how the endgame in DDO works. Yes, paladins come with a lot of survivability, which is a major plus, but they also need DPS, and guess what? There are plenty of weapons that offer better DPS for a paladin than this does. Among them: Lit II scimitar or khopesh, Enduring Conviction, Cannith crafted Holy Burst of Greater Bane scimitar or Khopesh, several epic weapons and the new alchemical weapons.

It needs to be worth using over those in at least some situations and this iteration of the thing just does not do that. Now, I feel that it should have some value to it besides DPS, but it should have enough DPS to be worth using over its competition. This should be among the best weapons a pure paladin can wield, otherwise it's an almost complete waste of space in the game, especially as an ML 18 item.

Just increasing the base damage is not going to salvage this. Improving the crit profile in some way will go a long way, but it won't help it pull out ahead of most of those other weapons.

Also, while VoD elite isn't the hardest thing in the game, it is not easy. Should this drop in elite ToD instead? Maybe, but that raid already has more reason to run it than VoD does. And that's why I proposed adding some craftability to the item to unlock other powers by using items and ingredients from content that is hard enough to warrant making this the best weapon a paladin can wield.

Is running Epic Lord of Blades for the ingredients to fully upgrade this somehow easier than grinding EVoN 1 and 6 for the parts to an Epic Sword of Shadows? Absolutely not! That would warrant this being dramatically increased in power wouldn't it? Think of it in the same context as Vault of Night base items getting upgraded to epic. This would just be a raid item that upgrades to epic caliber along different route. The epic red dragon armor upgrades in a unique way as well--it has no scroll or seal and requires an unrelated item from a different pack.

Schmoe
10-28-2011, 03:02 PM
I feel like it should be generally strong enough that a paladin would want this to be their main weapon in most cases. It's the only weapon in the game tailored to a specific class, and I feel like it would be a complete waste of effort and opportunity for awesomeness if it ended up being weaker than, say, a Shroud weapon. Weaker than a Cannith raid weapon...I think that would be reasonable, as those are pretty strong and rather difficult to fully upgrade...unless this became upgradeable using the same materials. That actually would be my preference, for it to be on par with the weapons that come out of LoB and MA fully upgraded, but using materials from those raids, or that are just as difficult to acquire (difficult, not long...that is, just as difficult to get as stuff from Epic LoB).


Greater Evil Bane sounds pretty good. I think that if they went that route, it should actually become:

<snip>



That all sounds great, but you forgot the cherry on top!

elraido
10-28-2011, 03:25 PM
[QUOTE=sephiroth1084;4148544]There are plenty of weapons that offer better DPS for a paladin than this does. Among them: Lit II scimitar or khopesh, Enduring Conviction, Cannith crafted Holy Burst of Greater Bane scimitar or Khopesh, several epic weapons and the new alchemical weapons.
/QUOTE]

I had a nice response all typed out and I lost it. DOH!

But in general it was:

Lets look at the weapons you picked out there and how hard they are to get for a newer player:

Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II
Enduring Conviction---While not highly sought after, people do roll on it when it is up for grabs. That and this raid still fails a decent amount with pugs. Figure in about 20 runs you could get one
Cannith Crafted---This requires a STUPID amount of items and time to get to that level. The grind required for it is extreamly high.
Epic Weapons---Need to be level 20 to use and level 20 to run to get the ingrediants. Not only that, but you need the item, a seal, a shard and a scroll. If it is a rare scroll like an epic Sos....a newer player won't have enough to trade for one. The grind required to make some of these items is also very high....especially on how sought after the item is
Alchamial weapons---You need to beat LoB on epic to get all the ingrediants you want for this. Not an easy task...even for fully geared vets of the game. Very challenging.

This weapon drops from a higher level raid that can be soloed by a variety of builds. It isn't that hard. Not only that, but for it to be truely effective, it needs to be in the hands of a paladin. When you run most missions, there are only one or two in it. That means if someone pulls it, odds are it will be passed to said paladin. Odds are, you will get one in less than 20 runs....unless the make it like a chattering ring drop rate...but I don't see them doing that either.

It should be an easier "higher end" sword for some newer players to get. Yes, the base damage isn't good, but the other effects can help make up for that. It doesn't seem like they wanted it to be a DPS king of a weapon...it seems like they wanted it to be a sort of all around weapon that can debuff and do extra damage via holy/light effects. In the hands of a pure paladin, it will do 17d6 points of damage on a crit. On a kotc, it will do more. That isn't horrible. And like I said, it needs a base damage modifier if they want more people to use it besides newer paladins.

Thrudh
10-28-2011, 03:28 PM
What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off...not all classes should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.

Except with silver flame pots, barbs have just as much survivability. Sad.

elraido
10-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Except with silver flame pots, barbs have just as much survivability. Sad.

Way to blow that theory out of the water...thanks!!!!! :mad: :D

mystafyi
10-28-2011, 03:29 PM
Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II


As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.

edited to fix quotes

elraido
10-28-2011, 03:31 PM
Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II


As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.[/QUOTE]

It will give extra materials...yes. But you aren't guaranteed a large as and end reward...let alone getting a stone or a scale. I have enough large horns to kill a horse. They aren't doing me a whole lot of good.

Matuse
10-28-2011, 03:43 PM
As of U12 the time required to get enough mats will drastically be reduced. Just by running it on normal will give you an extra mat from end reward. hard and elite will also have more chests in part 5.

I wouldn't count on larges showing up in the Shroud end reward very often. I'd be surprised if it was more often than 1:6 completions.

Seamonkeysix
10-28-2011, 04:47 PM
I'm waiting to see the heavy repeater from Hound which shoots xoriat bees......

Even better when an artificer is in the party. Then you get FIRE BEES, ACID BEES, FROST BEES or SHOCKING BEES!!!! ;)

(Not to mention silver bees, which are lovely :D )

Scarecrow9
10-28-2011, 04:48 PM
new suggestion:

what if the paladin spell holy sword affected it as well? added silver and byshek dr breaking, pro evil wen weilded (meh, immune to command etc) and added holy or pure good or some such? isnt the spell component a cold iron weapon for ingred anyway? (and yes i know its a certain type, but add this to the list)

Iwinbyrollup
10-28-2011, 04:54 PM
It's a garbage sword. That it's okay if you can't manage to get anything better is hardly a shining endorsement. It's useful only in an extremely small niche, and this is on a class that is already criticized for being too specialized. The paladin niche is bigger than this weapon's niche! And to top it off, even within that niche it's far from the best you can manage. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't supposed to be an iconic paladin weapon.

My paladin is a scimitar user. Ran the math, and this comes out around 5 to-hit and 10 points of damage lower than the crafted weapons I have to use against chaotic outsiders. And yes, while those are difficult-to-get weapons, this fares only slightly better than a +4 Holy Cold Iron Scimitar of Chaotic Outsider Bane and still has worse to-hit. I didn't run the numbers for a Khopesh, but presumably the +4 Holy Chaotic Outsider Bane would be doing more damage per hit than the Divine Vengeance--and still have better to-hit.

Currently I see VoD on any difficulty about as frequently as I see hard/elite Shrouds. When U12 hits, I expect to see a lot more hard/elite Shrouds. But elite VoD? We've seen two new items so far. Both fit into a very small niche, and neither is a best-of-slot must-have item. I don't expect to see it run all that often.

At the very least, the weapon's name should be changed. Remove all similarity to the Holy Avenger and at least that way we might not feel like we're getting cheated out of something that should actually be a good weapon.

It's a bit disheartening when one of my favorite classes gets a "boost" and the only thing I think is that it might be time to TR into a different class because of it.

Infiltraitor
10-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Even better when an artificer is in the party. Then you get FIRE BEES, ACID BEES, FROST BEES or SHOCKING BEES!!!! ;)

(Not to mention silver bees, which are lovely :D )

You forgot
New Bees
Bay Bees
and Walla Bees.

Havok.cry
10-28-2011, 05:25 PM
My only real thoughts on the matter of this sword is: its not actualy called holy avenger... so maybe their is still hope we'll get a real holy avenger.

edit: read: awesome sword of doom
edit2: and no I do not mean a sword with the prefix of awesome that has a clicky of doom on it
edit3: unless that is the type of doom that breaks the game.. not the spell
edit4: except if it is that it should "work" not be broken
edit5: beware about to enter wordplay logic loop of death

noinfo
10-28-2011, 10:18 PM
Way to blow that theory out of the water...thanks!!!!! :mad: :D

But unfortunately its true.

Hurak
10-29-2011, 03:19 AM
And how many pots did the healers have to use to keep those three people up? The HP minimum stated is to make the healers heals more efficient, so they can last through the entire fight without having to drink for your victory.

A 300 HP individual will barely survive 2 swipes from Velah, while higher HP people can survive 3-4. Low HP people can end up doubling a healer's SP usage, for little positive benefit.

Went in with 3 healers who healed in series, simple. No extra pots were used, fight didn't drag out any longer than normal. Rather than trying to debunk posters, think differently from the given.

curboUS
10-29-2011, 06:12 AM
This should be among the best weapons a pure paladin can wield, otherwise it's an almost complete waste of space in the game, especially as an ML 18 item.

Just increasing the base damage is not going to salvage this. Improving the crit profile in some way will go a long way, but it won't help it pull out ahead of most of those other weapons.


I think they will implement upgrades as they do for Reaver/Abbot if a future Mod.

Given that a ML 18 LS in a easy raid is not a bad option. Its a nice item for the time invested imo, it doesn't shine at endgame but if i am right it will after the upgrade option that will come soon(tm).

Also there is hope that they will fix the blind bug, making Radiance sought after again.

On a personal note i would like the avenger to have a better base profile and/or allow faster Smite regeneration, say reduce regeneration time with 30 seconds.

TheDearLeader
10-29-2011, 06:17 AM
Given that a ML 18 LS in a easy raid is not a bad option.


It only drop in Elite VoD.

In many ways, I'd rather put together an EV6 than Elite VoD.

"Easy Raid" seems a bit ... not right.

mystafyi
10-29-2011, 06:45 AM
Given that a ML 18 LS in a easy raid is not a bad option. Its a nice item for the time invested imo

Its a garbage weapon for the ML. In fact its worse then garbage since it will dispel debuffs and dots. But could we expect anything less considering the ring added to vod is also junk.

WielderofGigantus
10-29-2011, 06:55 AM
In fact its worse then garbage since it will dispel debuffs and dots.
It's been tested? It does indeed dispel debuffs and dots along with buffs?

SteeleTrueheart
10-29-2011, 07:21 AM
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)



Some of the suggestions for improving this is way too OP

I will get one, maybe two. IF the SR is 35 at least and IF the dispel doesnt affect party debuffs/attacks. One day it may be improved (and the only thing I would like to see at the VERY LEAST is an expanded crit range (18-20) to complement all the pali abilities.)

I like it for demons and I will assume at some point the shavarath story line will be continued and we will have to go to the demon section.

That said it is a very niche weapon at the moment.

The only other two ideas bandied around that don't seem too OP:
I love the idea of having named items with some crafting space on it (ala runearms) so a '+5 craftable' doesn't sound unreasonable and would make it unique or customisable for each individual paladin.

Giving it improved destruction, this has two benefits. It improves the paladins lackluster to hit and reaffirms the party helper role paladins seem to be typecaste into.

Osedox
10-29-2011, 12:06 PM
So Im posting this here because I haven't seen a thread yet for new loot from Hound. Someone posted this in general today on lamma and i just happened to snag a screenshot


http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5097/tharak.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/tharak.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

With Expanded UI

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4811/tharak2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/tharak2.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Asmodeus451
10-29-2011, 01:32 PM
Nice wraps. I like the DOT effect. I know devils have some acid resist, but what about the House C stuff? if not, those are quite nice

also, found this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4149616#post4149616

with what looks like a shield meant to go along with the sword.

since it looks like they could both use a boost, i would suggest maybe adding a set bonus?

Zess-wolf
10-29-2011, 01:33 PM
So Im posting this here because I haven't seen a thread yet for new loot from Hound. Someone posted this in general today on lamma and i just happened to snag a screenshot


http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5097/tharak.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/tharak.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

With Expanded UI

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4811/tharak2.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/tharak2.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Woot! i cant believe, some monk love :D looks like a good wraps :p

MrWizard
10-29-2011, 02:04 PM
+4 heighten awesome...

i do not put it on my weapon, but on my dt armor...
thank god we have some other options now....and can get both
3 dodge and 4 hieghtness without wasting dps slot on a weapon
more option good.

goodbye trying to get that stupid ring from titan.

Angelus_dead
10-29-2011, 02:49 PM
Woot! i cant believe, some monk love :D looks like a good wraps :p
What's good about those wraps?

Acid Burst + Acid Blast = fairly low damage from a weak crit weapon. The 2d6 damage from Holy would be higher.
Tharaak Corrosion = a copy of Peals of Thunder, which worked out to under 1 damage per hit.
Nightmare Mind Blast: Against level-appropriate monsters comes to about 1.13 damage per hit.
Nightmare Phantasmal Killer: A level-appropriate monster passes the saving throw 99.75% of the time, so you'll expect one kill per 4000 hits of non-immune creatures.