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bradleyforrest
10-29-2011, 02:54 PM
Nightmare Phantasmal Killer: A level-appropriate monster passes the saving throw 99.75% of the time, so you'll expect one kill per 4000 hits of non-immune creatures.
Don't you mean 400 hits?
1/20 * 1/20 = 1/400 = 0.0025 = 0.25%

Angelus_dead
10-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Don't you mean 400 hits?
1/20 * 1/20 = 1/400 = 0.0025 = 0.25%
Let's see. If you have Imp Crit (not all Monks do), then there is a 2/19 = 10.526% chance of triggering PK. Then there is a 5% chance of failing the Fort save and 5% of failing Will save, for a total 0.10526 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.00026315 = 1/3800.

Sarnind
10-29-2011, 03:27 PM
This wraps it s a pure junk for me

smatt
10-29-2011, 05:11 PM
What they lack in DPS they can more than make up in survivability. It is a trade off... NO MELEE class should be able to out DPS a frenzied barb with an epic SoS.


Fixed it for you :D

bradleyforrest
10-29-2011, 05:12 PM
Let's see. If you have Imp Crit (not all Monks do), then there is a 2/19 = 10.526% chance of triggering PK. Then there is a 5% chance of failing the Fort save and 5% of failing Will save, for a total 0.10526 * 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.00026315 = 1/3800.

Right. I forgot the fact that you have to crit to get the proc

Qhualor
10-29-2011, 06:40 PM
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6403/holyavenger.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

8 man Elite VoD
Pulled this on my Bard (that's 2 of the rings in the chest, and someone else pulled a 2nd copy of the sword)

As you can see not much fun....



http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

... so we gave it to a pally :D

i could use that sword on my ranger until 20. cant see myself using that over epic timeblade and epic kronzeks cruelty. i dont think i would really use it over my gs swords either though, but it looks cool so i want it anyways.

DemonMage
10-29-2011, 07:18 PM
Except it wouldn't have all those stats on your ranger. Since it only gains full stats in the hands of a Paladin. A Lawful character would only get some of those/weaker versions, we don't know specifically what I don't think yet.

Jahmin
10-29-2011, 07:26 PM
Except it wouldn't have all those stats on your ranger. Since it only gains full stats in the hands of a Paladin. A Lawful character would only get some of those/weaker versions, we don't know specifically what I don't think yet.

Not to mention HElf Paladin dilettante & fallen (non-lawful) Paladins! :eek:

Also what about non-pure Paladins? How much splash is enough? What are the break points?

sephiroth1084
10-29-2011, 08:33 PM
Does this drop on anything but elite?

Even if it were easy to get, none of my proposals has anything to do with how easy to acquire the weapon is. Are VoN base items difficult to get? No. Are they rather good when made epic? Yes. There need be no correlation between the base item and the upgraded one in terms of how easy or hard to get they are. Heck, look at Chronoscope! I've got so many copies of each base item that I just throw them away, yet they are excellent when made epic, and those are a hell of a lot easier to get than anything we're talking about here, and I (oddly) see elite loot runs of Chrono in 10-20 groups semi-regularly.

This at least is somewhat challenging for high level characters to acquire.


/QUOTE]

I had a nice response all typed out and I lost it. DOH!

But in general it was:

Lets look at the weapons you picked out there and how hard they are to get for a newer player:

Shroud item---Need about 20+ runs to construct a Lit II Going to be less than that come the next update, and so what? These are three years old, semi-common among anyone who has been running a toon at or near cap for a few months, and have nothing unique to paladins about them...well, except that they are better, and are better 6 levels lower, albeit not against some demons, but against many.

Enduring Conviction---While not highly sought after, people do roll on it when it is up for grabs. That and this raid still fails a decent amount with pugs. Figure in about 20 runs you could get one Harder to acquire the base item, yes, and with a higher demand and a wider niche. But we aren't talking about how easy the base items are to acquire, we're talking about upgrading the thing!

Cannith Crafted---This requires a STUPID amount of items and time to get to that level. The grind required for it is extreamly high. And yet, people have them. The grind isn't hard, and can produce unbound, tradeable items better than this sword in terms of DPS.

Epic Weapons---Need to be level 20 to use and level 20 to run to get the ingrediants. Not only that, but you need the item, a seal, a shard and a scroll. If it is a rare scroll like an epic Sos....a newer player won't have enough to trade for one. The grind required to make some of these items is also very high....especially on how sought after the item is Still no idea what your point is. Did I say this needs to be better right out of the chest? Nope. So, what's your point?
Alchamial weapons---You need to beat LoB on epic to get all the ingrediants you want for this. Not an easy task...even for fully geared vets of the game. Very challenging. See above.


It should be an easier "higher end" sword for some newer players to get. Yes, the base damage isn't good, but the other effects can help make up for that. It doesn't seem like they wanted it to be a DPS king of a weapon...it seems like they wanted it to be a sort of all around weapon that can debuff and do extra damage via holy/light effects. In the hands of a pure paladin, it will do 17d6 points of damage on a crit. On a kotc, it will do more. What? No it won't! Where are you pulling that BS? A KotC's damage is entirely separate from this. That isn't horrible. And like I said, it needs a base damage modifier if they want more people to use it besides newer paladins.
Okay, you clearly missed my point.


This weapon should not be a filler weapon for characters at level 18 and 19 before they make their Cannith crafted/greensteel/epic/alchemical weapon of choice. That is doing a disservice to the idea of this weapon and to the point of including it in the game at all. There are plenty of weapons in a comparable level range that players can acquire.

This weapon should be upgradeable. Whether that means using some epic system, or alchemical system, or drawing upon several different raids/quests/systems, I don't know, but it should be a quest for the paladin who has acquired this to unlock its full potential. That may mean the sword's ML raises to 20.

You can quote 17d6 on a crit to me all you like, but until you put up some actual DPS numbers, it's meaningless. The fact is, it has a terrible crit profile, and simply having a better profile would almost match this weapon for DPS even with half the effects this possesses.

Sure, SR 35 is nice, but you can get 32 from a lvl 20 cleric, favored soul or artificer (Mass SR scroll +5 CL), and in epics, that SR will do almost nothing. Whoopee! Then we have the Greater Dispel, which, while appearing nice, may dispel debuffs on the monsters, which would make it a true piece of junk. Last I saw, that remained to be seen.

The DPS is okay...if the monster is both evil and chaotic aligned. If it isn't, the weapon is junk, and you know what? Even within the niche that this should be awesome...it isn't.

The thing needs to be better, whether we're talking the base item or some upgraded version.

sweez
10-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Are VoN base items difficult to get? No.

Dragon's eye :(

Those wraps are pretty craptastic btw, but I wasn't really expecting much after I saw the sword stats. As for cannith crafting being a 'gigantic grind', you can just get someone to craft you a holy cold iron bane weapon in exchange for crafting mats (that you get by doing nothing but questing) and some plat (for the base cold iron item), how is that a grind exactly? As someone that got to ~100 in crafting I can tell you that the grind is on a much smaller scale than getting most of regular end-game items. Sure it's possibly more tedious due to the fact that you just stand in one spot and click on some buttons, but that still doesn't mean it's a bigger grind.

Crazyfruit
10-29-2011, 10:03 PM
...Nightmare Phantasmal Killer: A level-appropriate monster passes the saving throw 99.75% of the time, so you'll expect one kill per 4000 hits of non-immune creatures.

The DC on phantasmal killer from the Nightmares line of effects seem to be much higher than expected. The Terror blade worked surprisingly well in most content last time I tried it, after reading everyone saying it was junk on the forums - as did items with Nightmare Guard.

sirgog
10-29-2011, 10:29 PM
The DC on phantasmal killer from the Nightmares line of effects seem to be much higher than expected. The Terror blade worked surprisingly well in most content last time I tried it, after reading everyone saying it was junk on the forums - as did items with Nightmare Guard.

DC was buffed to 36 in U10. (Was 23 previously IIRC).

Angelus_dead
10-29-2011, 10:54 PM
The DC on phantasmal killer from the Nightmares line of effects seem to be much higher than expected. The Terror blade worked surprisingly well in most content last time I tried it, after reading everyone saying it was junk on the forums
Well, when Terror first came out I tested it extensively in PVP, and found that people were passing the save on a 15. Typical monsters of level 18 have Will of 18+.

LeLoric
10-29-2011, 10:57 PM
DC was buffed to 36 in U10. (Was 23 previously IIRC).

This


Well, when Terror first came out I tested it extensively in PVP, and found that people were passing the save on a 15. Typical monsters of level 18 have Will of 18+.

Not this.

36 is not great but in non epic non amrath it will actually kill a fair amount.

Alundaar
10-29-2011, 11:17 PM
was testing it in elite wep shipment and it seemed to proc every now and again ... altho i only brought it out once or twice i got 3 pks outta it prob about 150 hits it's a real nice set of wraps and the dot isn't too terrible would like it to have a longer duration maybe 10 secs cause it was resetting a lot.

sephiroth1084
10-30-2011, 10:22 AM
Dragon's eye :(
That's not difficult to get...it's just hard to come by. It has a low droprate in an easy, level 10 raid (or easy lvl 12 if you're doing elite loot runs). If you want it at level, yeah, it's tough. If you want it at level 20 in order to make it epic, it's a piece of cake.

The Divine Avenger at least comes out of a significantly harder quest.

UrbanPyro
10-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Deleted.

Esserbe
10-30-2011, 04:36 PM
was testing it in elite wep shipment and it seemed to proc every now and again ... altho i only brought it out once or twice i got 3 pks outta it prob about 150 hits it's a real nice set of wraps and the dot isn't too terrible would like it to have a longer duration maybe 10 secs cause it was resetting a lot.

A guildmate absolutely loves Terror, it works great even on normal mode Shavarath quests, he gets a *lot* of PK's.

Necrological
10-31-2011, 09:12 AM
well after a few days of field testing divine vengeanace......... it did remove the protective buffs from any enemy you come across, but sadly it did remove debuffs and DoTs as well. eiyher this weapon gets fixed or jus not put it in the update at all.......

Dunklerlindwurm
10-31-2011, 09:26 AM
A guildmate absolutely loves Terror, it works great even on normal mode Shavarath quests, he gets a *lot* of PK's.

I noticed this too on my Melee Artificer Life.

I used an upgraded Terror during IQ and Dreaming Dark Runs and it killed almost any humonoid target on the first Crit even on Hard.

Im guessing they sneaky upgraded the DC of it? I dont know but landing normal Will based Spells on these mobs is way harder.

Or maybe it has to do with Artificers raising the DC of Terror ?

elraido
10-31-2011, 09:30 AM
Does this drop on anything but elite?

Even if it were easy to get, none of my proposals has anything to do with how easy to acquire the weapon is. Are VoN base items difficult to get? No. Are they rather good when made epic? Yes. There need be no correlation between the base item and the upgraded one in terms of how easy or hard to get they are. Heck, look at Chronoscope! I've got so many copies of each base item that I just throw them away, yet they are excellent when made epic, and those are a hell of a lot easier to get than anything we're talking about here, and I (oddly) see elite loot runs of Chrono in 10-20 groups semi-regularly.

This at least is somewhat challenging for high level characters to acquire.

Okay, you clearly missed my point.


This weapon should not be a filler weapon for characters at level 18 and 19 before they make their Cannith crafted/greensteel/epic/alchemical weapon of choice. That is doing a disservice to the idea of this weapon and to the point of including it in the game at all. There are plenty of weapons in a comparable level range that players can acquire.

This weapon should be upgradeable. Whether that means using some epic system, or alchemical system, or drawing upon several different raids/quests/systems, I don't know, but it should be a quest for the paladin who has acquired this to unlock its full potential. That may mean the sword's ML raises to 20.

You can quote 17d6 on a crit to me all you like, but until you put up some actual DPS numbers, it's meaningless. The fact is, it has a terrible crit profile, and simply having a better profile would almost match this weapon for DPS even with half the effects this possesses.

Sure, SR 35 is nice, but you can get 32 from a lvl 20 cleric, favored soul or artificer (Mass SR scroll +5 CL), and in epics, that SR will do almost nothing. Whoopee! Then we have the Greater Dispel, which, while appearing nice, may dispel debuffs on the monsters, which would make it a true piece of junk. Last I saw, that remained to be seen.

The DPS is okay...if the monster is both evil and chaotic aligned. If it isn't, the weapon is junk, and you know what? Even within the niche that this should be awesome...it isn't.

The thing needs to be better, whether we're talking the base item or some upgraded version.

You did read what I have put several times in to this thread, right? I have repeatedly said, It needs either about 2d8 base damage or x3 crit or 18-20 crit profile. Once that happens it will be a good weapon. Until then, it isn't horrible for players who don't have anything else and they manage to pull it.

gloopygloop
10-31-2011, 09:48 AM
well after a few days of field testing divine vengeanace......... it did remove the protective buffs from any enemy you come across, but sadly it did remove debuffs and DoTs as well. eiyher this weapon gets fixed or jus not put it in the update at all.......

This makes me very sad.

When swinging a weapon ends up causing you to effectively do negative DPS, that's a bad thing.

Darkrok
10-31-2011, 10:13 AM
A guildmate absolutely loves Terror, it works great even on normal mode Shavarath quests, he gets a *lot* of PK's.

I'd assume the PK's proc on glancing blows as well, right? If so I may have to rethink my weapon of choice on my bard. :)

Diyon
10-31-2011, 11:24 AM
I'd assume the PK's proc on glancing blows as well, right? If so I may have to rethink my weapon of choice on my bard. :)

I don't think so. You have a chance for magical effects on a glancing blow, but to get a PK to proc, you need to crit. Glancing blows do not crit.

sephiroth1084
10-31-2011, 11:32 AM
You did read what I have put several times in to this thread, right? I have repeatedly said, It needs either about 2d8 base damage or x3 crit or 18-20 crit profile. Once that happens it will be a good weapon. Until then, it isn't horrible for players who don't have anything else and they manage to pull it.
I have read what you've said, but clearly you haven't read, or haven't understood, what I have been saying. Simply improving its crit profile (and really, improving its base damage isn't going to salvage this by itself), will not make this an excellent weapon. It won't even make it a very worthwhile weapon for anyone but the most undergeared paladins making their way to cap.

More importantly, though, my point was: WHY SHOULD THE HOLY AVENGER--THE ICON WEAPON OF PALADINS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR FOR YEARS--FINALLY COME OUT, ONLY TO BE A PLACEHOLDER WEAPON UNTIL CHARACTERS CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON ONE OF A HALF DOZEN OTHER, BETTER WEAPONS, SOME OF WHICH ARE EASIER TO ACQUIRE OR HAVE A MUCH LOWER ML?

Answer that. Why should the new addition to the elite difficulty of a raid in a clear attempt to get more people running the raid, and to finally satisfy the call for a Holy Avenger, be so weak as to be usable, maybe for only 2 levels (assuming you somehow manage to get the thing in your first half dozen, or dozen VoD runs before hitting level 20), and only against a handful of enemies? What's the point of the thing? Why include it in the game at all?

Vordax
10-31-2011, 11:46 AM
This makes me very sad.

When swinging a weapon ends up causing you to effectively do negative DPS, that's a bad thing.

This is really a poor design decision. I can just see a paladin with this weapon going into epic DQ and being yelled at when they try to use this weapon.

Why would they have it remove debuffs and dots?

Vordax

Angelus_dead
10-31-2011, 12:00 PM
This is a really poor design decision
....
Why would they have it remove debuffs and dots?
It's probably not even exactly a "decision" at all... a "decision" implies they knew what they were doing, while in this case it's more that they were following two different directions from elsewhere without looking at the consequences.


They did this from a simple combination of 4 factors:
1. They felt like making a DDO version of D&D's Holy Avenger.
2. The Holy Avenger in D&D 3.5 includes Greater Dispel Magic.
3. Greater Dispel Magic is a broken design in DDO.
4. The item designer didn't know that Greater Dispel Magic is a broken design.


Seriously, the approach to fixing this item effect is to just go and fix the behavior of Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic:
When you cast Dispel Magic on an enemy it should attempt to remove only beneficial spells. Dispel Magic on a friend should attempt to remove only harmful spells.

In D&D it is highly important for Wizards, Clerics, and even Sorcerers to carry Dispel Magic, because enemy spells are dangerous and you never know what they might have going. But DDO has utterly failed to reproduce that interaction.

sephiroth1084
10-31-2011, 12:42 PM
It's probably not even exactly a "decision" at all... a "decision" implies they knew what they were doing, while in this case it's more that they were following two different directions from elsewhere without looking at the consequences.


They did this from a simple combination of 4 factors:
1. They felt like making a DDO version of D&D's Holy Avenger.
2. The Holy Avenger in D&D 3.5 includes Greater Dispel Magic.
3. Greater Dispel Magic is a broken design in DDO.
4. The item designer didn't know that Greater Dispel Magic is a broken design.


Seriously, the approach to fixing this item effect is to just go and fix the behavior of Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic:
When you cast Dispel Magic on an enemy it should attempt to remove only beneficial spells. Dispel Magic on a friend should attempt to remove only harmful spells.

In D&D it is highly important for Wizards, Clerics, and even Sorcerers to carry Dispel Magic, because enemy spells are dangerous and you never know what they might have going. But DDO has utterly failed to reproduce that interaction.
I'd actually prefer Dispel Magic to get a choice of how it works, similar to DBF:


Dispel harmful effects - mostly used on self or allies to remove enemy debuffs and DoTs, but can be used on enemies under the effect of one of your own (or an ally's) spells in the event that that spell is going to cause a problem, such as putting a DoT on something that you don't want to die yet.
Dispel positive effects - mostly used on enemies that have been buffed, but may occasionally be used on self to remove an unwanted buff, albeit without discriminating between buffs you want and those you don't.

Give the Divine Avenger the Dispel harmful effects version.

Backley
10-31-2011, 12:58 PM
I'd actually prefer Dispel Magic to get a choice of how it works, similar to DBF:


Dispel harmful effects - mostly used on self or allies to remove enemy debuffs and DoTs, but can be used on enemies under the effect of one of your own (or an ally's) spells in the event that that spell is going to cause a problem, such as putting a DoT on something that you don't want to die yet.
Dispel positive effects - mostly used on enemies that have been buffed, but may occasionally be used on self to remove an unwanted buff, albeit without discriminating between buffs you want and those you don't.

Give the Divine Avenger the Dispel harmful effects version.

Great idea. This needs to be done.

Darkrok
10-31-2011, 12:59 PM
I'd actually prefer Dispel Magic to get a choice of how it works, similar to DBF:


Dispel harmful effects - mostly used on self or allies to remove enemy debuffs and DoTs, but can be used on enemies under the effect of one of your own (or an ally's) spells in the event that that spell is going to cause a problem, such as putting a DoT on something that you don't want to die yet.
Dispel positive effects - mostly used on enemies that have been buffed, but may occasionally be used on self to remove an unwanted buff, albeit without discriminating between buffs you want and those you don't.

Give the Divine Avenger the Dispel harmful effects version.

Very good suggestion. Would also be nice if they started adding more casted immunities rather than blanket immunities to enemies.

elraido
10-31-2011, 01:37 PM
I have read what you've said, but clearly you haven't read, or haven't understood, what I have been saying. Simply improving its crit profile (and really, improving its base damage isn't going to salvage this by itself), will not make this an excellent weapon. It won't even make it a very worthwhile weapon for anyone but the most undergeared paladins making their way to cap.

More importantly, though, my point was: WHY SHOULD THE HOLY AVENGER--THE ICON WEAPON OF PALADINS THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR FOR YEARS--FINALLY COME OUT, ONLY TO BE A PLACEHOLDER WEAPON UNTIL CHARACTERS CAN GET THEIR HANDS ON ONE OF A HALF DOZEN OTHER, BETTER WEAPONS, SOME OF WHICH ARE EASIER TO ACQUIRE OR HAVE A MUCH LOWER ML?

Answer that. Why should the new addition to the elite difficulty of a raid in a clear attempt to get more people running the raid, and to finally satisfy the call for a Holy Avenger, be so weak as to be usable, maybe for only 2 levels (assuming you somehow manage to get the thing in your first half dozen, or dozen VoD runs before hitting level 20), and only against a handful of enemies? What's the point of the thing? Why include it in the game at all?

Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out? I know that is another arguement. But at SOME POINT the it has to be reigned in here. Why not just add Holy, holy burst, holy blast, pure good, good burst, good blast, axiomatic, axiomatic burst, axiomatic blast, distruption, greater disruption, greater evil outsider bane, banishing, 4d6 x4 15-20 keen, silver, cold iron while they are at it. That way since it is the weapon of choice for paladins, the one they all want to strive for, they won't need to bother with any other items in the game.

Yes, that was all over the top, and that is the point. How over the top do we need them to go with this weapon? If they called it "gary's sword", would people be up in arms about it? They would say it is an ok weapon....could use a little work with the dice and crit range. But since they kind of envoked a holy avenger title with it, people are saying it is absolute garbage.

Besides, do we know of any hidden effects when it is paired with the matching shield? Personally, I think that would be the better way to go. Ups the damage dice, crit range and crit multiplier by one on each.

Aaxeyu
10-31-2011, 01:56 PM
Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out?

So what you are saying is that they should not add weapons that are better than the ones currently ingame?

elraido
10-31-2011, 02:01 PM
So what you are saying is that they should not add weapons that are better than the ones currently ingame?

This is where we will get into catch 22 arugement about power creep and the game being stale.

sephiroth1084
10-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Because they made things so stupidly powerful that it shouldn't have come to the point where we are complaining about a weapon with that many attributes. I mean look at the 3.5 version that it is based on. That is the iconic weapon as you say. Look at what they have added to it and people are complaining that it is basically vendor trash. What does that say about the power creep that has been going on...and that people have been saying since shroud came out? I know that is another arguement. But at SOME POINT the it has to be reigned in here. This isn't the place to reign in power inflation. If you want to make that argument, go attack greensteel, epic, alchemical and Cannith crafted items. Go attack much more powerful named loot. This simply isn't the place to make a stand about loot inflation.

You know why? Because it's silly to do so over an item that falls way behind the power curve. I certainly didn't claim that this should be the best weapon for a paladin to ever use, but it should be good enough that it is the preferred weapon of paladins through endgame for at least a big chunk of monsters. Right now, it is a mediocre weapon against a very small number of creatures in the game. Go take a stand against stuff that is actually defining the upper reaches of the power curve.

So, your argument is that the thing is more powerful than the PnP version? Guess what! This game has left behind the power curve from PnP a loooong time ago. That argument is simply no longer relevant. The PnP version should inform the DDO one, acting as a starting point, and I believe that the devs have used it as such, but it shouldn't be the mold by which this is produced.


Yes, that was all over the top, and that is the point. How over the top do we need them to go with this weapon? If they called it "gary's sword", would people be up in arms about it? They would say it is an ok weapon....could use a little work with the dice and crit range. But since they kind of envoked a holy avenger title with it, people are saying it is absolute garbage.Actually, yes, people would have a problem with it regardless of its name. You know why? It is a new weapon dropping in a lvl 18 raid, only on elite, with an ML of 18, that is worse than weapons that drop in easier content with much lower MLs, and is clearly an attempt by the devs to renew some interest in the raid and to promote running it on something above normal or hard...and they've failed in that task here for most players.

Is it interesting? Kind of, but it doesn't fulfill any of its purposes very well.


Besides, do we know of any hidden effects when it is paired with the matching shield? Personally, I think that would be the better way to go. Ups the damage dice, crit range and crit multiplier by one on each.
And it would be a better item if that were the case, but still not something players would use for very long, although a 15-20/x3 one-hander would see quite a bit of play, but for entirely unrelated reasons to the weapon's purpose or flavor. It would simply be the Sword of Shadows of S&B paladins.

As for requiring the shield to make it into a decent weapon...I feel like that narrows the niche on the sword much too far. It goes from being an okay weapon vs. chaotic evil monsters (that require cold iron to bypass their DR) for S&B or TWF paladins, to only being useful for S&B paladins. Sure, S&B needs some love, but this doesn't feel like the right way to go about giving it to them. Honestly, I feel that there should be either two Divine Avengers that drop, one a 1-hander, the other a 2-hander, or there should be a ritual that allows a player to convert the 2 1-handers into a 2-hander or something. In PnP there were greatsword versions of the Holy Avenger, and it seems silly to make a paladin-centric weapon that cuts out a big portion of the paladin populace.

What reason is there for this not to be a worthwhile weapon for paladins to use beyond level 19? What reason is there for this not to be competitive with more powerful weapons, such that capped, geared paladins would actually want to use it still?

Aaxeyu
10-31-2011, 02:17 PM
This is where we will get into catch 22 arugement about power creep and the game being stale.

No. Power creep is IMO preferable to a stale game. Based on the fact that every MMO follows that principle I would say that the vast majority agrees with me.

elraido
10-31-2011, 02:21 PM
It would simply be the Sword of Shadows of S&B paladins.



You make that sound like it is a bad thing? So should it be MORE powerful than a SoS in the hands of a barb?

Also, yes there should be a two handed version of the weapon. The only thing about doing that:
1.) People who are S&B will want one as well for DPS purposes. So in effect the THF will have to roll against the S&B people for them as well....ahhhh who am I kidding, no group takes more than one paladin with them at a time. :D

2.) Needing two to make one will create a very short supply of them. I would think just throw it into the alter with the holy sword component of your choice and BAM...new one.

sephiroth1084
10-31-2011, 02:33 PM
You make that sound like it is a bad thing? So should it be MORE powerful than a SoS in the hands of a barb? No, but that's a class discussion. The ESoS is more powerful, relatively, in the hands of a capstone paladin than in the hands of a barbarian, not including the rather difficult to acquire special crystals that drop in Epic Devil Assault.

My point was that the ESoS is basically the best weapon to use in almost every situation, because its damage scales incredibly quickly with increasing base damage mods, which are rather abundant. I feel like this weapon should be the best thing a paladin can use in some situations (against evil opponents, chaotic opponents, and especially against chaotic evil opponents). Whereas something with that crit profile would likely be the best weapon in nearly every situation, just because of the profile. Look at the regular SoS on a barbarian...with enough damage (and we're talking somewhere around +70) it becomes better than a Lit II 2-hander against anything not requiring a DR breaker, and it's an ML 10, relatively easy to acquire weapon.


Also, yes there should be a two handed version of the weapon. The only thing about doing that:
1.) People who are S&B will want one as well for DPS purposes. So in effect the THF will have to roll against the S&B people for them as well....ahhhh who am I kidding, no group takes more than one paladin with them at a time. :D Just like the TWF characters who want two versions of a weapon. I'm fine with that.

2.) Needing two to make one will create a very short supply of them. I would think just throw it into the alter with the holy sword component of your choice and BAM...new one.
Sure. That sounds fine to me. I don't care what the mechanic is, so long as it is available.

Shade
11-01-2011, 05:30 AM
What's good about those wraps?

Acid Burst + Acid Blast = fairly low damage from a weak crit weapon. The 2d6 damage from Holy would be higher.
Tharaak Corrosion = a copy of Peals of Thunder, which worked out to under 1 damage per hit.
Nightmare Mind Blast: Against level-appropriate monsters comes to about 1.13 damage per hit.
Nightmare Phantasmal Killer: A level-appropriate monster passes the saving throw 99.75% of the time, so you'll expect one kill per 4000 hits of non-immune creatures.

Wrong on pretty much all counts.
Acid burst + blast = pretty **** good considering monks +crit multi for the now vastly overpowered mountain stance also works on increasing burst dmg... Unlike berserker bonuses. A quick calc shows they work out about equal dps to holy with earth stance, but surpass it if you apply the earth finisher.
Tharaak corrosion = The pearls of thunder was **** because getting it to stack was quite difficult. Monks attack much faster, and as such will have better chances at stackign this.
Nightmare force dmg: SICK dmg vs certain things with weak will saves, which is a lot more then you think. Even some targets in the hardest quest in the game (eLoB) will fail this save 95% of the time.
Nightmare PK:
Plain wrong. The DC on this is EXTREMELY high. They VASTLY upgraded this in U11.. This effect is insane now. It can and will kill 15,000+ hp epic mobs FAST.

These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.

Considering how poor the greatclub and longsword are, monks got extremely lucky.

voodoogroves
11-01-2011, 06:17 AM
These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.

Is your point that they are getting so much that there is little reason to play anything else because they are awesome, or just that you feel like it is unfair in comparison to other classes and they still aren't dominating the game?

Shade
11-01-2011, 07:11 AM
Is your point that they are getting so much that there is little reason to play anything else because they are awesome, or just that you feel like it is unfair in comparison to other classes and they still aren't dominating the game?

Far as balance goes:
I feel they were an extremely powerful class 5 updates ago, not overpowered in many areas compared to other melee classes, but quite powerful overall and fairly balanced.
U12: Stepped it over the edge, they are far more powerful then any other melee class in nearly every facet of the game and it's unbalanced. And yea there is little reason to play much any other melee class for nearly every purpose as monks are now:
-Highest DPS in the game (Alchemicals put them ahead of barbarians which is completely illogical)
-Highest AC
-Strongest and most stuns of any class - by far
-Strongest tactics in general, getting double procs on all tactics
-Fastest passive run speed
-Top notch saves and evasion (second only to paladin in saves)
-Top notch tanks - Second only to sword and board stalwarts/siberys.. due to mountain stance upgrade, better tanks then barbarians now which I think is utterly redicules, and they need not make huge DPS sacrifices like ftr/pal must to do so.
-Most versatile melee class. Having access to a huge variety of small buffs, self healing, no limitations from rage.

There just so powerful now that if you compare say a monk vs say a ranger, kensai fighter, kotc paladin, the monk wins in EVERY single way. Vs a bbn, the only dis-advantage they have is in AOE dps, otherwise beat in every other facet.

Aside from Stalwarts/Siberys being better tanks, Monks have every facet of melee combat dominated as of U12.

On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.

Ok so paladin finally got something specific in u12 too.
But has ranger got anything specific since ToD? Nope. Fighter? Nope. Barbarian? Nope. Rogue? Nope. Monk? EVERY UPDATE.

Yes I get that there unique style makes them prefer specific weaponry, while other classes can use a larger variety effectively..
I don't get why they have to have the most powerful weapon added 3 updates in a row while every other class has had to wait YEARS to get anything specific to them added, and very boring power upgrades that are years apart.

Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.

Pay to win.

Sad thing is even as the best melee class, they are vastly inferior to all the primary caster classes (wis,sor,clr,fvs)..

Tho favored souls are the best all around casters for obvious reasons too (they CAN cost dollars, while others are free)

Forgeborn
11-01-2011, 07:22 AM
Acid burst + blast = pretty **** good considering monks +crit multi for the now vastly overpowered mountain stance also works on increasing burst dmg... Unlike berserker bonuses. A quick calc shows they work out about equal dps to holy with earth stance, but surpass it if you apply the earth finisher.
Lovely, monks get +1 crit modifier from the tier 3 or tier 4 earth stance, putting them at a dashing 19-20 *3, even if you assume that they somehow magically get the *4 effect constantly, which won't be the case, it will still be pretty trashy

over 20 attacks, with the assumption you hit on a 1, and always verify the critical threats, you would be dealing roughly an extra 7.325 acid damage per hit.


Tharaak corrosion = The pearls of thunder was **** because getting it to stack was quite difficult. Monks attack much faster, and as such will have better chances at stackign this.
Nightmare force dmg: SICK dmg vs certain things with weak will saves, which is a lot more then you think. Even some targets in the hardest quest in the game (eLoB) will fail this save 95% of the time.
It's still ****, for one, it's acid, meaning all devils pretty much ignore it, which is still a lot of the current endgame, peals of thunder had the advantage of being sonic damage, which hits pretty much everything. Sure, a monk can get it to stack more reliably, but that doesn't mean it's good, or even remotely useful.


Nightmare PK:
Plain wrong. The DC on this is EXTREMELY high. They VASTLY upgraded this in U11.. This effect is insane now. It can and will kill 15,000+ hp epic mobs FAST.

These wraps are mega monk love, like almost everything in U9/U10/U11/U12.. Hell every update lately.
Assuming it's the same as the Terror greatsword effect, it's handy here and there, but it's not great.

'Monk love'... Love how you can even say that, seeing as Wraps in all flavors are pretty much borked to uselessness, sure, they're FINALLY starting to fix the cannith crafted ones, but they'll have a long way to go before it's all fixed and working properly.

Sure, almost every update releases something that a monk can use, but the same goes for pretty much every class, the first 'real' weapon upgrade over randomly generated wraps (the ones that work most of the time!) are the U11 wraps, which were broken on release, as usual. U12 will take earth stance and add a massive amount of incite to it, meaning that when we want the added DPS the most, meaning for raid bosses, we won't be able to use it due to aggro management issues, unless we somehowget assigned as main tank.


Considering how poor the greatclub and longsword are, monks got extremely lucky.
Pretty much all raid bosses are resistance to Acid and will ignore most of the wrap's effects, same as with the greatclubs effect. The wraps are moderately handy against Thrash, same as the greatclub, these wraps will be carried by a monks for situational use at best.

Sure, the sword is only useful in specific situations, since it's intended to be a demon beater, which is precisely one raid in the game that revolves around those.


On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.
Ohh, since when is it 'class specific'? last i checked your barbarian can also equip handwraps, he's not barred from using them is he? Like he is from using Runearms.

all in all: monks didn't get 'extremely lucky' in the last few updates, not in the least.

gloopygloop
11-01-2011, 07:22 AM
Far as balance goes:
I feel they were an extremely powerful class 5 updates ago, not overpowered in many areas compared to other melee classes, but quite powerful overall and fairly balanced.
U12: Stepped it over the edge, they are far more powerful then any other melee class in nearly every facet of the game and it's unbalanced. And yea there is little reason to play much any other melee class for nearly every purpose as monks are now:
-Highest DPS in the game (Alchemicals put them ahead of barbarians which is completely illogical)
-Highest AC
-Strongest and most stuns of any class - by far
-Strongest tactics in general, getting double procs on all tactics
-Fastest passive run speed
-Top notch saves and evasion (second only to paladin in saves)
-Top notch tanks - Second only to sword and board stalwarts/siberys.. due to mountain stance upgrade, better tanks then barbarians now which I think is utterly redicules, and they need not make huge DPS sacrifices like ftr/pal must to do so.
-Most versatile melee class. Having access to a huge variety of small buffs, self healing, no limitations from rage.

There just so powerful now that if you compare say a monk vs say a ranger, kensai fighter, kotc paladin, the monk wins in EVERY single way. Vs a bbn, the only dis-advantage they have is in AOE dps, otherwise beat in every other facet.

Aside from Stalwarts/Siberys being better tanks, Monks have every facet of melee combat dominated as of U12.

On the itemization side:
They get CLASS SPECIFIC attention EVERY update.
What other class gets 100% specific loot for their class so often? None.

Ok so paladin finally got something specific in u12 too.
But has ranger got anything specific since ToD? Nope. Fighter? Nope. Barbarian? Nope. Rogue? Nope. Monk? EVERY UPDATE.

Yes I get that there unique style makes them prefer specific weaponry, while other classes can use a larger variety effectively..
I don't get why they have to have the most powerful weapon added 3 updates in a row while every other class has had to wait YEARS to get anything specific to them added, and very boring power upgrades that are years apart.

Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.

Pay to win.

Sad thing is even as the best melee class, they are vastly inferior to all the primary caster classes (wis,sor,clr,fvs)..

Tho favored souls are the best all around casters for obvious reasons too (they CAN cost dollars, while others are free)

Since there is very little reason to play any other class and since you play enough that you could get through a TR in a fairly short amount of time, I have to ask...

Do you have a Monk character that you play yourself?

Shade
11-01-2011, 07:31 AM
Since there is very little reason to play any other class and since you play enough that you could get through a TR in a fairly short amount of time, I have to ask...

Do you have a Monk character that you play yourself?

I don't pay to win, just as a rule. Thus I couldn't play a monk even if I wanted to, they are locked for me. I have been VIP many times in the past and could have, but they werent so vastly overpowered back then.

And the TR isn't so much a problem as it is accepting the whole pay to win junk, I just wont do it out of principal.

I'd rather they just start charging for all classes, then buff them all up to be as strong as monks.

EG:
-Give barbarians percentile damage reduction. Add ravager, make it powerful.
-Give Rangers deepwood sniper 3, upgrade the other tiers to make them the best ranged DPS as they should be. (ATM ftr or bbn arcane arcanse outclass them by leaps and bounds, or in u12 one of those weird zen archery monk splash builds)
-Give paladins kotc and undead hunter a lot more DPS and apply more genericly to cover a broader range of enemies.

Shade
11-01-2011, 07:33 AM
Ohh, since when is it 'class specific'? last i checked your barbarian can also equip handwraps, he's not barred from using them is he? Like he is from using Runearms.

Semantics. I can't take unarmed strike feat, I cant use handwraps, simple as that. No unarmed barbarians allowed in DDO, thats the rules turbine set. Should I be allowed to take that feat and do reasonable unarmed dps, I probably would have an unarmed barbarian.


all in all: monks didn't get 'extremely lucky' in the last few updates, not in the least.
Luck had nothing to do with it. Dollars did.


'Monk love'... Love how you can even say that, seeing as Wraps in all flavors are pretty much borked to uselessness, sure, they're FINALLY starting to fix the cannith crafted ones, but they'll have a long way to go before it's all fixed and working properly.
Also tired of reading monks complain about this. All the imporant wrap bugs affecting your performance have been addressed.

And guess what - every class suffers TONS of bugs. Monks just get a lot more attention since theyre bugs are "new".
Barbarians have had to suffer devastating bugs that severely limit the class for 6 years.. We just stopped asking for fixes a couple years in as they never cared to address them. Monks have no more or less bugs then any other class, the only difference is they at least ATTEMPT to fix them, even if they dont always get it right at least they try.

And bugs/bug fixing dont have anything to do with Class improvemetns and class specific loot being added either. Stop bringing it up in every topic with the word "monk" in it.

mystafyi
11-01-2011, 07:37 AM
Well actually I do get it. They cost dollars, thus they get far more attention then classes that dont cost dollars.
Turbine always does this. lets take a quick look at p2p classes/races in ddo.
Horc - Melee draw since high dps
Warforged - arcane draw since easy selfheal/high con
Fvs - 2500favor or p2p (I really dont need to comment on the pluses of fvs)
Monk - as you posted above
Artificer - 150 favor or p2p -insanely OP at low/medium levels (wasnt it you shade, that posted arti's are the best single target healers now too??)
didnt list the helf since i dont know it well, but some claim that you can get the highest burst dps with them.

Forgeborn
11-01-2011, 07:55 AM
Semantics. I can't take unarmed strike feat, I cant use handwraps, simple as that. No unarmed barbarians allowed in DDO, thats the rules turbine set. Should I be allowed to take that feat and do reasonable unarmed dps, I probably would have an unarmed barbarian.


Correct, you can't take unarmed strike, sorta how the monk can't take Rage, frenzy, or death frenzy. And you can use handwraps, it's really easy, just buy, or find, any set of handwraps, and then double click them from your inventory, see, you're using handwraps as a weapon now! so you can make that unarmed barbarian! Unarmed barbarian's are allowed as much as Barbarian's running around sword and boarding with a tower shield and a dagger, nothing is preventing you from doing that, it might not be effective, but nothing is preventing you from doing that.

In all seriousness; Yes, i see that handwraps are mostly intended to be used by monks, but there's so many bugs with them that I might as well unequip them and fight without weapons during some updates.

also: you don't do pay to win you say, but Greataxer (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/greataxer/) Is a half-orc, and Metalaxer (http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/metalaxer/) Is a Warforged, both which require you to either be a VIP or having bought them with turbine points. Kinda going against what you say there, aren't you?

ps. Also, monks can be played completely free if you want to do that, it just takes a small amount of dedication on running favor toons through elite harbor quests, or running a few TR's up.

Edit in: Every class suffers bugs, yes, I can't deny that, but you're claiming that monks are getting 'love' while they're getting fixes and tweaks to some stances. Every class has been fixed, tweaked, and messed with so many times, from overpowering them to making them near useless. Monks have seen both sides of the scales over the course of a handful of updates.

If you want to complain about classes getting love, al least also complain about other classes who are also getting enough love to smother them. Just look at the new version of the Shroud of the Abbot, the Phiarlan mirror cloak, or the robe/docent of shadow.

gloopygloop
11-01-2011, 08:06 AM
I don't pay to win, just as a rule. Thus I couldn't play a monk even if I wanted to, they are locked for me. I have been VIP many times in the past and could have, but they werent so vastly overpowered back then.

And the TR isn't so much a problem as it is accepting the whole pay to win junk, I just wont do it out of principal.

And aren't you the one who keeps telling people not to rely on spreadsheets, but to actually make a build yourself and test it for real before making grand claims about that build?

I'm pretty sure you even have an entire thread where people have an opportunity to back up their DPS claims with real world testing. In that thread, Monks and Monk splashes turn out to be really good at fighting portals. They're actually outstanding at fighting portals. But when you look at the Sobrien challenge, you'll see that Byrron, the monk that beat the pants off of everyone else's portal time drops to number 14 behind one other Monk and a whole bunch of Kensai Fighters and Barbarians.


Mineral2 (or equiv) Giant Entries:
#1 Alpine in ranger form (Half Orc Rng/Bbn/Ftr 12/6/2 TWF - Khopesh) 3:12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ygq-i8AMnU&hd=1)
#2 Monkeyarcher (Half-Orc lvl20 Kensai Ftr - Falcion) 3:25 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKa02XDe228&hd=1)

Any Weapon Giant Entries:
#1 Cetuss (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDBBEwmIJv8&hd=1)
#2 Children (Half-Orc FB Bbn/Ftr 18/2 THF - Autocleave ESoS) 2:16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1QxFfaYcsI&hd=1)
#3 Laeris (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr TWF - Dual Lit2 Khops) 2:19 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-SSfAhg18E&hd=1)
#4 Aygo (Half-Elf Ftr/Rng/Bbn 12/6/2 - Bow manyshot + twf cold khop 2:23 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WuCEWd19k&hd=1)
#5 Hmpf (Half-Orc FB lvl20 Bbn THF - ESoS) 2:28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFjlzui_Ms4&hd=1)
#7 Kjeldorn (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:31 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUoVrZFkbwA&hd=1)
#8 Zavarthak (Half-Orc lvl20 Ftr TWF - Dual Lit2 Khops) 2:31 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksJ-Y2rGuBA&hd=1)***
#9 Greataxer (Half-Orc FB Bbn/Ftr 18/2 THF - ESoS) 2:40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS4WLPBYC0g&hd=1)
#10 Krythan (WF Kensai Ftr lvl20 THF - Twitch ESoS) 2:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2unUwPRYUM8&hd=1)
#11 Metalaxer (WF FB Barb lvl20 THF - ESoS) 2:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54Wm_Zt4WU&hd=1)
#12 Grunzo (Dwarf 12/6/2 Ftr/Bbn/Rog TWF Lit2 DA) 2:53 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGpfE3Yg_1M&hd=1)
#13 Rishnarck - (Warforged Mnk/Ftr/Rng 12/7/1 Vicous GGB Wraps) 2:57 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_mlu0nsyMg&hd=1)
#14 Byrron - (Human lvl20 Monk - GGB Wraps) 3:43 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nhXYaTy9SM&hd=1)
#15 Dualaxer (Dwarf FB lvl20 Barb TWF - Dual GGB) 3:55 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNUmJ9f96KI&hd=1)
#16 Teenie Tiny (Halfling lv20 Monk - GGB Wraps) 5:10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7eap36Ze0U)
#17 Grunzar (Dwarf 18/2 DoS Pal/Rog - non-epic sos / Hellfail ga) 6:14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIdCYKwKcM&hd=1) ***


That doesn't look like the no holds barred best DPS to me. Unless you're fighting an end game enemy that doesn't fight back. I imagine that Monks might very well have the best melee DPS against the giant crystals in Schemes of the Enemy as well. Isn't that exciting? It's a shame that their DPS drops off in comparison with other classes against most of the enemies that actually fight back.

Sarezar
11-01-2011, 08:44 AM
I agree with Shade 100%. When I saw the Monk updates, I only said one thing: "Again???"

We've waited for years to see balanced PrEs for ALL classes. Still not finished. Yet monks get boost after boost after boost....

Frankly, I don't see why the ToD rings still need to only work on unarmed. Monks do not need help in boosting their DPS anymore. Any class should have access to that (and also the ability to have perma-good damage on all their attacks, making metalline/silver/cold iron/etc weapons easier to use for DR purposes.

If the idea of all my melee characters being monks wasn't so absurdly boring, I would have TRed them already. But this isn't Naruto Online you know...

Zion_Halcyon
11-01-2011, 08:49 AM
So thats it for new VoD loot?

Just Omniscience and a 13 pages discussing the new Pali sword?

Taimasan
11-01-2011, 09:00 AM
I think that you know better then to give the explanation of monks being "pay to win." as a excuse to Monk's now having a equal if not chance to surpass what you cherish. And we both know what we are talking about. Your a great player, you have done great things. But you have a hard head sometimes. I guess, I have played nothing but a monk from when I started and that is all i know, and some people may say im a weak player because of that. But think about it, you are not V.I.P. but do you own WF, or HO? Just consider it.
Because I loved the Monk class when people said it was nothing but a waste. I suppose in a way, I have you to thank for some of my hard work Shade. I remember the when I first started playing and I put up a VON 6 Epic guide. It was not the best quality, but, it had some thought put into it. But what stood out in my mind was that you said the reason why that the dps was so low in the group. Was because of the monk.
I don't think you knew that I was the monk in the group, but never the less...lets just say it lit a fire. And you cannot put it out, its impossible. But. I believe that you need to take a step back, and just reflect on not the state of what you cherish, but, instead how to constantly evolve that of which you cherish.
No matter what anyone says or how horrible or how behind or how stupid it is, you have to do it. Because in all builds and all things therein, if there is a will, there is a way.

Diyon
11-01-2011, 09:25 AM
Correct, you can't take unarmed strike, sorta how the monk can't take Rage, frenzy, or death frenzy.

Actually, not like that at all. In PnP, improved unarmed strike is feat pretty much anyone can take, all it does is allow you to do lethal damage with unarmed strikes (and maybe ups the damage to 1d6). In DDO, I imagine that would just make you not attack at sloth speed. Monks get it as a bonus feat. Rage, frenzy, etc are not feats in PnP you have to take appropriate classes to use them.

And for all intents and purposes, you can't make an unarmed barb in DDO, because without the feat, its beyond silly, with it, it would at least be kind of reasonable.


Wrong on pretty much all counts.
Acid burst + blast = pretty **** good considering monks +crit multi for the now vastly overpowered mountain stance also works on increasing burst dmg... Unlike berserker bonuses. A quick calc shows they work out about equal dps to holy with earth stance, but surpass it if you apply the earth finisher.

Its not an earth finisher, or finisher at all, its a strike you take with enhancements.

Noelemahc
11-01-2011, 10:52 AM
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/)

Arguing over stupid things aside, there are several things that are wrong with this weapon:

1. It is cold iron, and has axiomatic burst. This is clearly a demon beater. The subterrane has more devils than demons. As per the description, said Paladin ventured in to the sub to battle the denizens. Why would he do it with a subpar weapon? Limiting the "awesome" sword (which is in point 2) to just a beater of one type is limiting.

2. This sword sucks. For one it's a longsword, and unfortunately in DDO longswords by default are all suck. The only exception is Enduring Conviction post update 12 which actually becomes ok as a trash beater and nothing more. Even then it's only because of the silly amount of extra dice damage it gets to make up for it's terrible crit profile which DDO relies so heavily on.

3. Crafted weapons are still better than raid loot, especially since it is significantly harder to acquire this than a crafted weapon. +5 holy silver/cold iron khopesh of greater evil outsider (or law/chaotic) bane is better than this weapon. The only thing that requires is just grinding up the essences you get as you are questing. The Divine Vengeance requires getting together a group of people who hopefully aren't ********, and relying on them to reliably complete an elite VoD. Oh yeah, and relying on them to not just loot it or roll on it even if they are on Sorcerers or Bards, etc. People are loot*****s, and take everything they don't need.


There are a couple even minor tweaks that could make this sword actually awesome for a Paladin. Let's face it, Paladin needs a bone and definitely not random vendor trash weapons that are worse than what is in the game already. Honestly this would be good enough:

Divine Vengeance
Longsword (Bastard Sword, and Great sword versions as well)
1d8 base damage (1d10 against evil outsiders for longsword, 2d6 for bastard sword, and 3d6 for great sword), 19-20 x2 crit (x3 crit on a 19-20 against evil outsiders)
Holy Burst
Greater Good
Radiance
Spell Resistance 35
Greater Dispelling (probably can just drop it.. I mean what trash mobs really have effects that need to be dispelled?)
Cold Iron
Silver

Another cool thing I think that would make the sword interesting: Paladin Defensive auras +1. However that's probably asking too much.


Sure it's a little stronger, but I think it would be worth it enough to actually go out and get and it would be marginally better than crafted weapons. Obviously the main effects would only work for Paladins. As it is the current weapon is just trash and every option out there is a better option. Green steel, Enduring Conviction, crafted weapons, etc. With the suggested upgrades I'd imagine it would be useful at least as a niche weapon.

Anyway, my 2 pennies.

NXPlasmid
11-01-2011, 12:28 PM
I think that you know better then to give the explanation of monks being "pay to win." as a excuse to Monk's now having a equal if not chance to surpass what you cherish. And we both know what we are talking about. Your a great player, you have done great things. But you have a hard head sometimes. I guess, I have played nothing but a monk from when I started and that is all i know, and some people may say im a weak player because of that. But think about it, you are not V.I.P. but do you own WF, or HO? Just consider it.
Because I loved the Monk class when people said it was nothing but a waste. I suppose in a way, I have you to thank for some of my hard work Shade. I remember the when I first started playing and I put up a VON 6 Epic guide. It was not the best quality, but, it had some thought put into it. But what stood out in my mind was that you said the reason why that the dps was so low in the group. Was because of the monk.
I don't think you knew that I was the monk in the group, but never the less...lets just say it lit a fire. And you cannot put it out, its impossible. But. I believe that you need to take a step back, and just reflect on not the state of what you cherish, but, instead how to constantly evolve that of which you cherish.
No matter what anyone says or how horrible or how behind or how stupid it is, you have to do it. Because in all builds and all things therein, if there is a will, there is a way.

I have to agree that Shade's "pay to win" comment is offensive, however you are wasting your time discussing it with him. He has specific ideas about the game and how it should be played and neither you nor I are going to change that. It's just a game, I love my monks. I don't care if Shade wants to throw mud, it doesn't change my mind. T

butlerfamilywa
11-01-2011, 01:07 PM
Its not an earth finisher, or finisher at all, its a strike you take with enhancements.

Wrong, sorry.

Earth - Earth - Earth finishing move is what increases your crit range, not the Earth strikes taken by enhancements, those only increase your base damage.

The Trembling Earth - Level 1 Monk Bonus Feat (Automatic)
Ki Cost: 10 - Earth:Earth:Earth Finisher - The force of the earth is behind your attacks, increasing your critical attack multiplyer by 2 and partially bewildering your foe, preventing them from casting spells. A successfull Fortitude ends this effect. Lasts 30 seconds.


Which, a Monk in Earth 3/4 Stance, would then be throwing out a 20x3 on a normal attack, and then a 20x5 on a finisher strike... 19-20 if using IC:Bludgeon.. and with the Monk strikes, this increases the burst damage from things such as Acid Burst, Holy Burst, and Shocking Burst, ect...

WruntJunior
11-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Too bad earth stance is now mostly useless for raid situations for most monks. So much threat gen. Completely offsets the benefit of the crit multiplier for me (which is already worse than air stance bonuses in my opinion). Sadness.

However, monks should still be benefiting from the earth finisher (in part because of how good the earth strikes are), just not so much the earth stance crit multiplier.

Cyr
11-01-2011, 01:24 PM
Too bad earth stance is now mostly useless for raid situations for most monks. So much threat gen. Completely offsets the benefit of the crit multiplier for me (which is already worse than air stance bonuses in my opinion). Sadness.

However, monks should still be benefiting from the earth finisher (in part because of how good the earth strikes are), just not so much the earth stance crit multiplier.

Earth stance gained off the top damage reduction like the shield feats grant in U12.

That will increase their tanking ability. The stance is for these tanking situations now. It is easy enough to switch to air stance when you do not want agro.

DrNuegebauer
11-01-2011, 01:27 PM
I have to agree that Shade's "pay to win" comment is offensive, however you are wasting your time discussing it with him. He has specific ideas about the game and how it should be played and neither you nor I are going to change that. It's just a game, I love my monks. I don't care if Shade wants to throw mud, it doesn't change my mind. T

Don't worry too much about Shade. He just loves barbars so much - when something else becomes a DPS option he hits his real life rage button.

WruntJunior
11-01-2011, 01:59 PM
Earth stance gained off the top damage reduction like the shield feats grant in U12.

That will increase their tanking ability. The stance is for these tanking situations now. It is easy enough to switch to air stance when you do not want agro.

I agree, earth stance is superawesome for tanking now. I get the feeling it's going to become the "*** N00B" thing for people using it in raids, though...not the majority, but the "special" few.

Also, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is not an acceptable acronym? sadness.

Diyon
11-01-2011, 02:07 PM
Wrong, sorry.

Earth - Earth - Earth finishing move is what increases your crit range, not the Earth strikes taken by enhancements, those only increase your base damage.

The Trembling Earth - Level 1 Monk Bonus Feat (Automatic)
Ki Cost: 10 - Earth:Earth:Earth Finisher - The force of the earth is behind your attacks, increasing your critical attack multiplyer by 2 and partially bewildering your foe, preventing them from casting spells. A successfull Fortitude ends this effect. Lasts 30 seconds.


Which, a Monk in Earth 3/4 Stance, would then be throwing out a 20x3 on a normal attack, and then a 20x5 on a finisher strike... 19-20 if using IC:Bludgeon.. and with the Monk strikes, this increases the burst damage from things such as Acid Burst, Holy Burst, and Shocking Burst, ect...

Well holy ****! I thought that only did the spell casting part! Learn something new everyday. Does that part work regardless of the save? I'm freaking using that all the time now on my acrobat if so. Thank you!

For the record though, what I was thinking of was this:

Fists of Iron - Level 6 Monk Enhancement (Select)
Ki Cost: 5 - Earth - Performs a melee attack with +1 critical multiplier.

Which totally does up your crit multiplier, not base damage.


Seriously though! Does the crit part only work on that target when they fail the save, or do all your attacks get that for 30 seconds even if you do it when there's nothing to hit?

Habreno
11-01-2011, 02:17 PM
Well holy ****! I thought that only did the spell casting part! Learn something new everyday. Does that part work regardless of the save? I'm freaking using that all the time now on my acrobat if so. Thank you!

For the record though, what I was thinking of was this:

Fists of Iron - Level 6 Monk Enhancement (Select)
Ki Cost: 5 - Earth - Performs a melee attack with +1 critical multiplier.

Which totally does up your crit multiplier, not base damage.


Seriously though! Does the crit part only work on that target when they fail the save, or do all your attacks get that for 30 seconds even if you do it when there's nothing to hit?

The bonus 2x crit multiplier is on that strike set alone. It is applied to all strikes made in a certain time frame, and like Touch of Death, is an active feature of all your strikes for a very short time frame. Enough to get a quadruple strike if you get extremely lucky, but most of the time 2x or 3x proc. And the bonus crit multipliers only affect your damage if you crit- if you roll a 16, 2, 10, and 18, none of those are crits and there's little point in firing it off.

Tom_Hunters
11-01-2011, 02:56 PM
Arguing over stupid things aside, there are several things that are wrong with this weapon:

1. It is cold iron, and has axiomatic burst. This is clearly a demon beater. The subterrane has more devils than demons. As per the description, said Paladin ventured in to the sub to battle the denizens. Why would he do it with a subpar weapon? Limiting the "awesome" sword (which is in point 2) to just a beater of one type is limiting.

2. This sword sucks. For one it's a longsword, and unfortunately in DDO longswords by default are all suck. The only exception is Enduring Conviction post update 12 which actually becomes ok as a trash beater and nothing more. Even then it's only because of the silly amount of extra dice damage it gets to make up for it's terrible crit profile which DDO relies so heavily on.

3. Crafted weapons are still better than raid loot, especially since it is significantly harder to acquire this than a crafted weapon. +5 holy silver/cold iron khopesh of greater evil outsider (or law/chaotic) bane is better than this weapon. The only thing that requires is just grinding up the essences you get as you are questing. The Divine Vengeance requires getting together a group of people who hopefully aren't ********, and relying on them to reliably complete an elite VoD. Oh yeah, and relying on them to not just loot it or roll on it even if they are on Sorcerers or Bards, etc. People are loot*****s, and take everything they don't need.


There are a couple even minor tweaks that could make this sword actually awesome for a Paladin. Let's face it, Paladin needs a bone and definitely not random vendor trash weapons that are worse than what is in the game already. Honestly this would be good enough:

Divine Vengeance
Longsword (Bastard Sword, and Great sword versions as well)
1d8 base damage (1d10 against evil outsiders for longsword, 2d6 for bastard sword, and 3d6 for great sword), 19-20 x2 crit (x3 crit on a 19-20 against evil outsiders)
Holy Burst
Greater Good
Radiance
Spell Resistance 35
Greater Dispelling (probably can just drop it.. I mean what trash mobs really have effects that need to be dispelled?)
Cold Iron
Silver

Another cool thing I think that would make the sword interesting: Paladin Defensive auras +1. However that's probably asking too much.


Sure it's a little stronger, but I think it would be worth it enough to actually go out and get and it would be marginally better than crafted weapons. Obviously the main effects would only work for Paladins. As it is the current weapon is just trash and every option out there is a better option. Green steel, Enduring Conviction, crafted weapons, etc. With the suggested upgrades I'd imagine it would be useful at least as a niche weapon.

Anyway, my 2 pennies.

don't think it's really wrong... as i bet it's modeled after the DnD sword... (cold iron, greater dispel, a boost to SR [though it was save but nvm])
and in the 3.5 DnD sense, demons are nemesis of paladins due to the totally opposite alignment
that's also why it's axiomatic

i think they assumed u might get an artificer around,
and that the sword is not exclusive, so u can dual wield them

Diyon
11-01-2011, 03:41 PM
The bonus 2x crit multiplier is on that strike set alone. It is applied to all strikes made in a certain time frame, and like Touch of Death, is an active feature of all your strikes for a very short time frame. Enough to get a quadruple strike if you get extremely lucky, but most of the time 2x or 3x proc. And the bonus crit multipliers only affect your damage if you crit- if you roll a 16, 2, 10, and 18, none of those are crits and there's little point in firing it off.

Short time frame? It says thirty seconds but is the +2 multiplier part shorter? I'm glad to see that it applies regardless though. None of this ever occurred to me because AFAIK, it doesn't show up on your buff bar.

If this really works, my acrobat is going to enjoy a lovely new 17-20/x4 crit profile.

sephiroth1084
11-01-2011, 04:12 PM
Short time frame? It says thirty seconds but is the +2 multiplier part shorter? I'm glad to see that it applies regardless though. None of this ever occurred to me because AFAIK, it doesn't show up on your buff bar.

If this really works, my acrobat is going to enjoy a lovely new 17-20/x4 crit profile.
The multiplier is just on that hit. It has no duration. What the poster meant was that, like other strikes, if you get a TWF proc or a doublestrike proc on that strike, you can get 2 or 3 "copies" of the +2 crit multiplier on that attack. Where 4x is coming from, I don't know--think that got fixed long ago.

In any case, I am unconvinced that earth stance is better DPS than wind, especially in raid situations where the boss likely has some degree of Fort. We're talking about bonus damage on rolls of 19+, some of which may be stopped by fortification vs. 10% more damage. Fire is +2 damage on every hit and likely more Ki to use on strikes. Has anyone run the numbers to figure out which stance actually has the highest DPS now?

I figured the earth bonus crit multiplier was attached to simply making using the stance not such a big drop in DPS, but could be wrong.

Diyon
11-01-2011, 04:16 PM
The multiplier is just on that hit. It has no duration. What the poster meant was that, like other strikes, if you get a TWF proc or a doublestrike proc on that strike, you can get 2 or 3 "copies" of the +2 crit multiplier on that attack. Where 4x is coming from, I don't know--think that got fixed long ago.

In any case, I am unconvinced that earth stance is better DPS than wind, especially in raid situations where the boss likely has some degree of Fort. We're talking about bonus damage on rolls of 19+, some of which may be stopped by fortification vs. 10% more damage. Fire is +2 damage on every hit and likely more Ki to use on strikes. Has anyone run the numbers to figure out which stance actually has the highest DPS now?

I figured the earth bonus crit multiplier was attached to simply making using the stance not such a big drop in DPS, but could be wrong.

Oh well if this is the case, then I'm betting the multiplier part gets a save too, in which case, earth-earth-earth goes back to being useless to my acrobat (Not TWF so no offhand, although I suppose I could doublestrike, and an absolutely cruddy DC, 1 lvl of monk).

sephiroth1084
11-01-2011, 04:45 PM
Oh well if this is the case, then I'm betting the multiplier part gets a save too, in which case, earth-earth-earth goes back to being useless to my acrobat (Not TWF so no offhand, although I suppose I could doublestrike, and an absolutely cruddy DC, 1 lvl of monk).
No, it isn't subject to a save. When you use the finisher, you make an attack that has a higher crit multiplier and carries an effect that calls for a asve.

Diyon
11-01-2011, 04:57 PM
No, it isn't subject to a save. When you use the finisher, you make an attack that has a higher crit multiplier and carries an effect that calls for a asve.

That being true, I'll make sure to use it now, although once again on my acrobat, probably won't be doing too much more than usual. Thanks for clarifying.

sephiroth1084
11-01-2011, 05:24 PM
That being true, I'll make sure to use it now, although once again on my acrobat, probably won't be doing too much more than usual. Thanks for clarifying.
I find it rather disappointing since the change to helplessness as it often feels like a waste...crits aren't coming up all that often.

Hurak
11-01-2011, 05:48 PM
In any case, I am unconvinced that earth stance is better DPS than wind, especially in raid situations where the boss likely has some degree of Fort. We're talking about bonus damage on rolls of 19+, some of which may be stopped by fortification vs. 10% more damage. Fire is +2 damage on every hit and likely more Ki to use on strikes. Has anyone run the numbers to figure out which stance actually has the highest DPS now?

I figured the earth bonus crit multiplier was attached to simply making using the stance not such a big drop in DPS, but could be wrong.

Sephiroth, I have run some figures comparing all the stances and as I was trying to explain in an earlier thread, for 50% and 0 fort mobs, Earth Stance 3 and 4 provides the top dps, if wearing Jidz bracers or the Equilibrium garments. For 100% fort mobs, Air was the better stance. The increase in base wrap damage and the bonus crit magnitude on a 19 and 20 was convincingly greater than the dps gained from the extra 7-8 strikes (at Tier 3) from doublestrike. (Note. I assume all stances have haste negating the inherent speed bonus in Air).

So will the proposed changes to Earth Stance change my game plan? Probably not. Unbuffed, my Ac is in the 50's and without any agro reducing gear, I'll pull most agro normally so for trash and sub-bosses, Earth stance and for Bosses, I'll drop into Air.

Rathic
11-01-2011, 07:00 PM
I think it would be much better if the sword got an extended crit range to mesh with smites

the weapon is subpar for devils... and thats probably why it is loot... it got the original wielder killed :p

seriously tho it should be focused on killing evil no matter the type with a wide crit range

maybe put disruption and banishing on it? :p

gloopygloop
11-01-2011, 07:15 PM
I think it would be much better if the sword got an extended crit range to mesh with smites

the weapon is subpar for devils... and thats probably why it is loot... it got the original wielder killed :p

seriously tho it should be focused on killing evil no matter the type with a wide crit range

maybe put disruption and banishing on it? :p

It's in Suulomades's chest because the party wiped when the Paladin weilding it kept dispelling all of the debuffs and DoTs that were on Suulo.

Havok.cry
11-01-2011, 07:51 PM
It's in Suulomades's chest because the party wiped when the Paladin wielding it kept dispelling all of the debuffs and DoTs that were on Suulo.

No, its in his chest because the tiefling archers killed him and then said "hey boss look at this shiny, what a ******" Sully replied "LOL I bet I can get a bunch of people to die for this silly chunk of metal"

waterboytkd
11-01-2011, 08:18 PM
Sephiroth, I have run some figures comparing all the stances and as I was trying to explain in an earlier thread, for 50% and 0 fort mobs, Earth Stance 3 and 4 provides the top dps, if wearing Jidz bracers or the Equilibrium garments. For 100% fort mobs, Air was the better stance. The increase in base wrap damage and the bonus crit magnitude on a 19 and 20 was convincingly greater than the dps gained from the extra 7-8 strikes (at Tier 3) from doublestrike. (Note. I assume all stances have haste negating the inherent speed bonus in Air).

Yeah, Earth 3/4 stance will give a +18% boost to the total unarmed damage dealt over a period of time (by unarmed damage, I mean the "crittable" portion of your damage). That number comes from the +10% to the main hand unarmed damage over a period of time and a +10% to the offhand unarmed damage, which only happens 80% of the time, so it ends up being 8% more unarmed damage over a period of time.

The Wind 4 stance gives a flat +10% bonus to damage due to 10% doublestrike. Sadly, offhand procs don't increase this damage like they do for Earth because doublestrike does not proc on offhand strikes. But, that 10% includes all damages dealt on a hit, such as elemental effects from wraps or ToD rings, and from gloves, such as epic Charged Gauntlets and epic Brawler's Gloves (note: eClaw set actually favors Earth in this instance because that +4 damage is augmented on crits). So, the only way Air is more damage than Earth is if 10% of all your non-crittable damage is > 8% of your unarmed damage. On certain, end-game viable monk builds, it might be possible...

Let's see: my current TR'd monk, when he gets to cap, is planned for the following gear: Tier 2 Air Alc Wraps (only thing not already obtained), 5 piece Abishai set, Holy Burst ToD ring, Acid Burst/Fire Burst/Cold Burst ToD ring, Shintao Set, Greater Bold Trinket, and Tharne's Goggles (as well as other, non-damage boosting gear). Also, he has power attack. He'll have a 26 str in Air and Earth stances.

His damage from an unarmed strike out of stance is: 2d10+21 +3.5(shocking)+.55(burst) +3.5(elemental)+.55(burst) +7(holy)+1.05(burst) +12(lightning strike) +5(eCharged Gauntlets*) +8(Tharne's SA) +.4 (Bold Trinket's seeker) +1.25(Bold Trinket's shocking blow, assuming no evasion but successful Ref save). Or, on average: 32(base) + 2.55(on crit extras) +40.25(non-crittable extras), for a total of 74.8.

*A lot of people claim eCharged Gauntlets is 3.5 damage per swing (20d6 on vorps, which is very close to 5% of the time), but the truth is it doesn't roll d6s, it rolls d3+3s. I have never seen it proc for less than low 90s for damage, never more than low 110s, and have never heard of it getting out of this range, either. The truth is it does not deal 20d6 on a vorp, it deals 20d3+60. Which is better (averages 100 per proc, or 5 damage per swing, instead of 3.5 damage per swing), as every little bit to help melees close the gap with casters is important.

So a 10% doublestrike just adds 10% of that total damage, so it's +7.48.

Those on crit extras would increase to 4.15 in Earth3/4 (a difference of 1.65), and 18% of the base is 5.76, so Earth nets a +7.41 damage per strike.

Wind 4 beats Earth 3/4 on that particular build by .07 damage per swing...which is really pretty negligible. However, if the enemy has ANY fortification, Wind starts winning by a much wider margin. And if there's no one keeping haste on the group, then Wind gets way ahead.

AND, lastly, this does not take strikes into account. When you consider those, Wind 4 adds an extra 10% from those to your damage as well, while Earth 3/4 does not add anything from strikes. This becomes quite relevant when you use something like Touch of Death. Also, wind stance gives a chance for additional procs for things like Quivering Palm, Stunning Fist, Imp. Sunder, and even Void 4, which is relevant as the more it goes off, the more chances you have to roll a vorpal with it.

If you're a light monk, you have a different gear setup (maybe something with epic Jidz, maybe eRaven's Sight + eGloves of the Claw + eGem of Many Facets), or don't use a lot of strikes (not sure what kind of monk that is, but hey), then Earth 3/4 definately seems like the better stance to be in until you go up against a mob with Fortification. A 50% Fort on a raid boss decreases the bonus you get from Earth by 50%, making Wind 4 seem much more appealing. However, if you rely more on elemental damages getting added for your dps, and you use a lot strikes (especially ToD or anything with a save negates effect), then I think Wind 4 should be your go-to stance.

Sarezar
11-01-2011, 08:28 PM
Seeing how many people cannot see the obvious that is standing right in front of their eyes just because they don't like someone on the forums is mind boggling...

Shade's general opinions aside, the overpoweredness of monks in U12 is so blatantly obvious that you don't even need to do math, calculations or builds. It's just screaming OP.

And yes, I have a monk and she will go earth stance and air stance in U12 for trash/dps mode and tank/hate mode and she will be uber. That doesn't mean I can't see 3 feet in front of me.

waterboytkd
11-01-2011, 09:15 PM
the overpoweredness of monks in U12 is so blatantly obvious that you don't even need to do math, calculations or builds. It's just screaming OP.

If every bad guy dealt 12000000000 damage per hit, would a 600,000 hp monk be OP? No. However, if you could get a 600K hp monk in DDO with the current system, that would be OP. I only make this ridiculous argument to show that the idea of "overpowered" is relative to the system involved.

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Monks, even with this boost to Earth stance to, you know, actually make it viable, are no where near OP. No where. Near. OP. For that to happen, they would have to be able to deal their damage without closing to melee, be able to do that damage to multiple mobs at once, and would have to have perfect self-healing. None of those are true. And then, what's the change to monks that's so OP? One of their stances gets a boost to make it viable to tank with. Not optimal, but viable (Pally's and Fighters still get more for tanking than monks do, including intimidate as a class skill). And suddenly, the sky is falling, and monks are going to take over DDO.

Nevermind that, even with this change, you'll never see a monk solo ToD. You'll never see a monk solo epics. You'll never see a monk break 1000 hp without gimping it's build to all hell. Monks are not OP, not with this change, not with casters the way they are.

So rather than scream and kick that monks are OP, why not be happy that the devs are showing love to a melee class, and then ask for that same love to get shown to the rest of the melees, so that there can be balance at end-game between the classes again.

Hurak
11-01-2011, 09:16 PM
/snip Good write up

I probably should have prefaced my comment by referring to my hybrid (12M/6R/2F) TR build where T4 strikes aren't available.

As I understand it, 10% double strike does not equate to a 10% increase in dps, closer to 5.5-6% as it can only be calculated off main hand strikes.

waterboytkd
11-01-2011, 09:38 PM
I probably should have prefaced my comment by referring to my hybrid (12M/6R/2F) TR build where T4 strikes aren't available.

As I understand it, 10% double strike does not equate to a 10% increase in dps, closer to 5.5-6% as it can only be calculated off main hand strikes.

Ah, yes. If you can only get to tier 3 of the stances, then Earth is best for dps, hands down (assuming haste).

As for calculating doublestrike, monks actually got it pretty easy. Just calculate mainhand damage, then multiply by 1.8 for your offhand proc and 1.1 for your doublestrike proc, or just 1.9 for both. Monks can do this because their offhands are identical to their mainhands. Truly unfortunate for other melees that this is not the case. So, yeah, it's not +10% of your total dps, it's +10% of your mainhand dps, and since your mainhand dps on a monk apprises about 55.55% of your total dps, 10% doublestrike would be a 5.555% increase to your total dps.

In my opinion, all melees should get full str to the offhand. Essentially, I think if you're wielding identical weapons, your stats for both hands should be identical. It would be a small change, but as I've said before, any help melees can get right now is needed in order to try and bridge the gap between them and casters.

sephiroth1084
11-01-2011, 09:46 PM
If every bad guy dealt 12000000000 damage per hit, would a 600,000 hp monk be OP? No. However, if you could get a 600K hp monk in DDO with the current system, that would be OP. I only make this ridiculous argument to show that the idea of "overpowered" is relative to the system involved.

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Monks, even with this boost to Earth stance to, you know, actually make it viable, are no where near OP. No where. Near. OP. For that to happen, they would have to be able to deal their damage without closing to melee, be able to do that damage to multiple mobs at once, and would have to have perfect self-healing. None of those are true. And then, what's the change to monks that's so OP? One of their stances gets a boost to make it viable to tank with. Not optimal, but viable (Pally's and Fighters still get more for tanking than monks do, including intimidate as a class skill). And suddenly, the sky is falling, and monks are going to take over DDO.

Nevermind that, even with this change, you'll never see a monk solo ToD. You'll never see a monk solo epics. You'll never see a monk break 1000 hp without gimping it's build to all hell. Monks are not OP, not with this change, not with casters the way they are.

So rather than scream and kick that monks are OP, why not be happy that the devs are showing love to a melee class, and then ask for that same love to get shown to the rest of the melees, so that there can be balance at end-game between the classes again.
Pretty sure the argument is monks relative to other melee classes. Not making a judgment here, but there is a distinct dividing line between casters and melees, and at least in some instances, judging the power of something needs to be done without crossing that line.

waterboytkd
11-01-2011, 10:01 PM
Pretty sure the argument is monks relative to other melee classes. Not making a judgment here, but there is a distinct dividing line between casters and melees, and at least in some instances, judging the power of something needs to be done without crossing that line.

I'm not sure what those instances would be, though. Because, if casters were apples and melees were oranges, then yeah, comparing one to the other would be moot. But that's just not the case. Not anymore. Casters are now dps spots in the raid party, like most melees, and casters can take the tank spot, too, if they want, though that tends to cost them pots. There are no roles that a melee can fulfill that a caster can't (only the LoB is tough in that he puts an ASF on the tank that even restricts divine casting; but that just means your caster tank needs to also have another caster watching him like a healer). But the opposite is not true: there are roles a caster can fulfill that a melee can't. That's why I compare any and all changes to melees against casters: melees are competing with casters in all fields at which melees can compete. It's probably also why they are giving a strong tanking mode to monks: tanking is the one field where casters WILL be less efficient than a melee.

Also, soloing should be considered, at least a little. Casters can solo epics. Melees can't. There are some epics where a melee can take a hireling, go in, and get a few kills before he needs to reset the instance, but melees simply can't scroll farm efficiently like a caster can. Which, if scrolls were bound, wouldn't matter all that much. But, because scrolls are not bound, and are thus the lifeblood of the DDO economy (maybe changing soon, we'll see), the capabilities of casters do in fact put players who play only melees at a disadvantage. Not only are they less versatile and powerful, but they also tend to be poorer!

BUT, the major point to take away from this: melees and casters are not apples and oranges. It's more likes apples and apples and oranges (casters being both apples and oranges). Saying melees must be compared against other melees for power purposes is only going to serve in keeping the divide between casters and melees huge.

sephiroth1084
11-01-2011, 10:44 PM
I'm not sure what those instances would be, though. Because, if casters were apples and melees were oranges, then yeah, comparing one to the other would be moot. But that's just not the case. Not anymore. Casters are now dps spots in the raid party, like most melees, and casters can take the tank spot, too, if they want, though that tends to cost them pots. There are no roles that a melee can fulfill that a caster can't (only the LoB is tough in that he puts an ASF on the tank that even restricts divine casting; but that just means your caster tank needs to also have another caster watching him like a healer). But the opposite is not true: there are roles a caster can fulfill that a melee can't. That's why I compare any and all changes to melees against casters: melees are competing with casters in all fields at which melees can compete. It's probably also why they are giving a strong tanking mode to monks: tanking is the one field where casters WILL be less efficient than a melee.

Also, soloing should be considered, at least a little. Casters can solo epics. Melees can't. There are some epics where a melee can take a hireling, go in, and get a few kills before he needs to reset the instance, but melees simply can't scroll farm efficiently like a caster can. Which, if scrolls were bound, wouldn't matter all that much. But, because scrolls are not bound, and are thus the lifeblood of the DDO economy (maybe changing soon, we'll see), the capabilities of casters do in fact put players who play only melees at a disadvantage. Not only are they less versatile and powerful, but they also tend to be poorer!

BUT, the major point to take away from this: melees and casters are not apples and oranges. It's more likes apples and apples and oranges (casters being both apples and oranges). Saying melees must be compared against other melees for power purposes is only going to serve in keeping the divide between casters and melees huge.
My point is that the monk changes are almost completely irrelevant if comparing monks to casters, but are incredibly so if comparing monks to other melees. Yeah, the divide between casters and melees needs to be dealt with, but that really has nothing at all to do with judging whether monks are OP.

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?

There are still areas that melees excel that casters don't, and the devs have to continue working to find that ideal middle ground, but the power of casters has nothing to do with most of the buffs monks have gotten in the last few updates or how they stand relative to barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues and rangers.

LeLoric
11-02-2011, 01:39 AM
My point is that the monk changes are almost completely irrelevant if comparing monks to casters, but are incredibly so if comparing monks to other melees. Yeah, the divide between casters and melees needs to be dealt with, but that really has nothing at all to do with judging whether monks are OP.

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?

There are still areas that melees excel that casters don't, and the devs have to continue working to find that ideal middle ground, but the power of casters has nothing to do with most of the buffs monks have gotten in the last few updates or how they stand relative to barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues and rangers.

Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.

Jahmin
11-02-2011, 02:31 AM
IF this were ALL true

Look at it this way: if monks can attain the same or higher DPS as a barbarian, among the highest AC in the game, comparable threat to the big threat tanks of DoS and SD, the damage mitigation of a S&B build with Shield Mastery, Stun DCs that are comparable to those of Kenseis and barbarians, while also bringing unique support buffs, personal defense abilities that aren't replicable by anyone else, quasi-self-healing, the fastest movement speed in the game, some semi-useful CC and insta-kill abilities, AND Evasion and good saves...why play any other melee class?
Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon :rolleyes:


Topic… got so distracted by the Shaded Monk Derail that I forgot why I was here… The loot seen thus far is junk; complete and utter garbage. Yes, it CAN be used, but explain the reason to farm an older raid on a more difficult setting for gear that is useable only long after its replacement has been already far easier acquired? Right, this ‘buff’ is too little, too late.

sephiroth1084
11-02-2011, 02:38 AM
Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.
The stances needed some serious work, which they got, though perhaps a little too much. That will remain to be seen. Monks could probably stand to be dialed back a little bit, but I don't know how, in what way.

As for not seeing more of them, I think it likely has more to do with the clicky-intensive nature of the class and their MAD. I know that, until the spell pass, my monk posed a much bigger problem than my caster for mapping stuff to my gamepad. The spell pass put them at about even, and the nerf to the helpless condition has pushed the monk back up as I know longer feel like Earth strikes are the best option in many cases (in particular, I have no love for Fists of Iron or the Earth finisher when I can't guarantee that they are going to yield a crit).

And players don't like having to build characters that beg for so many stats. I think part of it is an aversion to feel like they have to incorporate tomes to get by. There's also the fact that monks are hard to build...you look at them and think you want Wis, Dex, Str and Con, sort of in that order, but then, should go you finesse? What stat to boost with levels? Can you get by dropping Dex or Wis for more Str? This is partly pulled from talking with people or looking at the monk questions and misconceptions on the forums, and partly from pure speculation.

I know that I've been considering TRing my monk for a while, but haven't a clue what I want to do with him. I like having an AC option, but I feel like I want more of a focus on tactics and DPS next life, but what stance(s) should I be looking to run around in? Do I want Void 4? Do I want access to all 4 stances at Master in order to swap roles around? How much Str/Wis/Dex is enough? They're rather difficult to work out, and I think that is the biggest reason for us not seeing many more of them running around.

LeLoric
11-02-2011, 02:39 AM
IF this were ALL true

Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon :rolleyes:


Topic… got so distracted by the Shaded Monk Derail that I forgot why I was here… The loot seen thus far is junk; complete and utter garbage. Yes, it CAN be used, but explain the reason to farm an older raid on a more difficult setting for gear that is useable only long after its replacement has been already far easier acquired? Right, this ‘buff’ is too little, too late.

Not sure if you are aware of how close you are to quitting your dayjob. Monks are at or near everything that was listed and have been for a while. Cries of monks are underpowered still exist even though reality is they are not and haven't been for quite some time.

sephiroth1084
11-02-2011, 02:47 AM
IF this were ALL true

Shade would actually be right. Fortunately for everyone this is NOT and he is wrong on this issue.

WHEN Monk’s suddenly have better than Barb DPS, better than Kensai tactics, better than Defender Hate along with useable AC & Saves all in a single package come get me. I will sell my shop and TR as a Monk. Sadly I will not be quitting my ‘day-job’ any time soon :rolleyes:


I was merely presenting the view that some people are taking to illustrate the point, although with just a glance, it seems rather obvious that monks are at least very close to being what I described, if not encompassing those points fully already. I'm not going to see whether they can be all of those things at once, but certainly monks can attain equal or better AC than S&B tanks while yielding better DPS in most cases, and can now generate enough hate to hold aggro, and can put up a lot of damage mitigation, all on one character. Don't think the same toon could switch up and get barbarian-level DPS, but you can certainly build a monk that sacrifices some of those defensive measures (and not even all of them) to gain that level of DPS.

It's not one character that is doing all of that, but it is one class that can achieve all of that across separate iterations.

78mackson
11-02-2011, 08:18 AM
That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!


Sarezar is the only one I know that has solo'd The Hound. I'm pretty sure he knows the class, and the mechanics of this game... edit. ..and the OP'ness of casters.

@OP/ ye, the grand illusion of Paladin being saved by the "one weapon" is now crushed. re-roll. atleast its a nice class to TR!

elraido
11-02-2011, 08:52 AM
I think that you know better then to give the explanation of monks being "pay to win." as a excuse to Monk's now having a equal if not chance to surpass what you cherish. And we both know what we are talking about. Your a great player, you have done great things. But you have a hard head sometimes. I guess, I have played nothing but a monk from when I started and that is all i know, and some people may say im a weak player because of that. But think about it, you are not V.I.P. but do you own WF, or HO? Just consider it.
Because I loved the Monk class when people said it was nothing but a waste. I suppose in a way, I have you to thank for some of my hard work Shade. I remember the when I first started playing and I put up a VON 6 Epic guide. It was not the best quality, but, it had some thought put into it. But what stood out in my mind was that you said the reason why that the dps was so low in the group. Was because of the monk.
I don't think you knew that I was the monk in the group, but never the less...lets just say it lit a fire. And you cannot put it out, its impossible. But. I believe that you need to take a step back, and just reflect on not the state of what you cherish, but, instead how to constantly evolve that of which you cherish.
No matter what anyone says or how horrible or how behind or how stupid it is, you have to do it. Because in all builds and all things therein, if there is a will, there is a way.

Your monk is gimp....you ran right off the edge in eV06 rounding the corner to go to 1st base. I think you had a couple drinks that night. :D

esheep
11-02-2011, 11:43 AM
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/holyavengeronpally.jpg/]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/484/holyavengeronpally.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/208/holyavenger.jpg/)


Make it 1d10 base damage, 18-20 x2 crit and give it metalline and a new effect called greater evil bane and people might want to use it... cold iron and axiomatic are a waste of pixels in screenshots.

Angelus_dead
11-02-2011, 12:26 PM
Monks could probably stand to be dialed back a little bit, but I don't know how, in what way.
Step 1 to improving Monk balance:
Make handwraps and regular weapons benefit equally from TOD burst rings, greensteel, and TWF feats.

sephiroth1084
11-02-2011, 12:31 PM
Step 1 to improving Monk balance:
Make handwraps and regular weapons benefit equally from TOD burst rings, greensteel, and TWF feats.
I'd be more in favor of that if there were some additional options for acquiring +2 exceptional stats and stuff like Healing Amp +20%. I suppose it's not such a big deal to lose those effects in most cases for the Bursts that would necessarily become prevalent on any melee character. Also (and this is a minor-ish point, particularly given the addition of Artificer's buffs) doing so would even more heavily devalue the paladin capstone and red augment slots as then anyone with a ToD ring would have good-aligned weapons. Do you want every character with an ESoS bypassing good+metal DR?

I think that that's a reasonable suggestion, but feel that it would require some additional shuffling.

Also, do you think monks are in a good enough place to lose their exclusive TWF benefits and still be in that good place?

maddmatt70
11-02-2011, 01:05 PM
Pretty spot on here. Contrary to many's belief monks were in pretty good shape prior to u12. The addition of alchem wraps (and prior to that cannith crafted wraps) had already pushed them up to near the top for dps.

I agree the stances probably deserved some tweaking but monks as a whole are getting a substantial buff as they have pretty much since inception. Probably the biggest reason we don't see a higher influx of them at end game power gamer type content is due to the large amount of bugs associated with the class.

Oh the powergamer types that are ahead of the curve have already levelled monk builds up or respecced or what have you and I see players with monks playing those monks more at least compared to other melee. Monk types are also awesome in epic LOB, etc....

Taimasan
11-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Your monk is gimp....you ran right off the edge in eV06 rounding the corner to go to 1st base. I think you had a couple drinks that night. :D

Going to 1st base is hard while holding ice water! ;)

Angelus_dead
11-02-2011, 02:58 PM
I suppose it's not such a big deal to lose those effects in most cases for the Bursts that would necessarily become prevalent on any melee character. Also (and this is a minor-ish point, particularly given the addition of Artificer's buffs) doing so would even more heavily devalue the paladin capstone and red augment slots as then anyone with a ToD ring would have good-aligned weapons. Do you want every character with an ESoS bypassing good+metal DR?
What I said is that the benefits of TOD burst should be equalized across weapon types, not that the effect on all types should be buffed up to what Handwraps get. It could instead have meant that TOD burst Handwraps would be nerfed down to the effect Crossbows get (+0); or realistically, something in between.

If it would be bad for generic melee guys to get Holy Burst from a ring slot, then it's probably bad for Monks to get it right now. One potential approach could be that TOD Pos Dom Mat becomes d6 Good damage on every hit, not boosted on crits and not augmenting the damage type of your physical strike.

PS. Another good step to help confirm Monks are balanced would be to allow any character to learn Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat.

Khurse
11-02-2011, 03:43 PM
I don't think Monks are overpowered, I do believe that an undergeared Monk is far superior to any other undergeared melee, but having played with numerous endgame geared Barbs and Fighters (and a few Paladins) I've never seen a Monk out DPs/Pull agrro off of them. I've seen numerous Monks join groups and claim they were going to do it, but it's never happened. ~ This was pre Alchemical wraps though,maybe they add enough DPS that it's a huge issue.


That being said Monks don't need alot of work (some of the stances do imho need buffage) but these improvements seem a bit..ott.
I think there's a happy middle ground between where the Monk stances were, and what U12 seems to make them.

I'd also like to think that things that could maybe help balance stuff out (like I don't know, those PRE's that were announced what, 2 or 3 years ago) might possibly be in development,maybe.

Kinda odd that new PRE's seem to keep getting mentioned by players as something they'd like to see, yet nothing is ever heard from the devs about them.

sephiroth1084
11-02-2011, 06:23 PM
What I said is that the benefits of TOD burst should be equalized across weapon types, not that the effect on all types should be buffed up to what Handwraps get. It could instead have meant that TOD burst Handwraps would be nerfed down to the effect Crossbows get (+0); or realistically, something in between.

If it would be bad for generic melee guys to get Holy Burst from a ring slot, then it's probably bad for Monks to get it right now. One potential approach could be that TOD Pos Dom Mat becomes d6 Good damage on every hit, not boosted on crits and not augmenting the damage type of your physical strike.

PS. Another good step to help confirm Monks are balanced would be to allow any character to learn Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat.
That sounds pretty reasonable. Or even change the effects to only the burst portion (ie, just critical damage), and modifying the type of damage your weapons deal. I believe that the ability to bypass alignment DR with the wraps is important since metal-typed wraps are so incredibly hard to come by, and even Metalline ones aren't common enough that one can expect to have Metalline of PG or Righteousness with any surety. Cannith crafting helps, but not enough.

Ultimately, I think you are probably right about nerfing the ToD ring effects down for monks, though I'd like to see some number work-ups for monk DPS now vs. barbarians, and what they would look like with ToD rings changed to just on-hit damage, what they would look like with just on-crit damage.

Jahmin
11-03-2011, 05:09 AM
Not sure if you are aware of how close you are to quitting your dayjob. Monks are at or near everything that was listed and have been for a while. Cries of monks are underpowered still exist even though reality is they are not and haven't been for quite some time.

Laugh. I am well aware that I am not close at all. It would be better if you were aware that near is not best. Step out of the Shade and see the light.

Sure there are underpowered views, just as there are those that still view Barbarians as great. Does not mean they are right. Monks are certainly doing ok, and if they can get their handwraps fixed would be pretty much good to go. But that would still be a far cry from being the ‘bestest’ at everything.


I was merely presenting the view that some people are taking to illustrate the point, although with just a glance, it seems rather obvious that monks are at least very close to being what I described, if not encompassing those points fully already. I'm not going to see whether they can be all of those things at once, but certainly monks can attain equal or better AC than S&B tanks while yielding better DPS in most cases, and can now generate enough hate to hold aggro, and can put up a lot of damage mitigation, all on one character. Don't think the same toon could switch up and get barbarian-level DPS, but you can certainly build a monk that sacrifices some of those defensive measures (and not even all of them) to gain that level of DPS.
Yes, I realize that and apologize if it was not evident in the post. I quoted you because you summarized his position so well. Just like any character a well-built Monk should excel at his chosen role – but that does not mean that any Monk can do it all, and for some roles Monks are not even close. Regardless, it is a Shady position that Monks can do it all and are simultaneously Shintao & Ninja Spy.


It's not one character that is doing all of that, but it is one class that can achieve all of that across separate iterations.
As for this, Monks are not there (yet), but shall we consider Fighters? Depending upon which DPS thread you follow they DO have better than Barb DPS, being Kensai they obviously can achieve Kensai level tactics, Defenders can achieve Defender hate (which still exceeds Monks) along with useable AC & Saves. WOW! By the Host! Fighters are overpowered! Nerf fighters, save Monks!

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 07:15 AM
Frankly, I don't see why the ToD rings still need to only work on unarmed. Monks do not need help in boosting their DPS anymore. Any class should have access to that (and also the ability to have perma-good damage on all their attacks, making metalline/silver/cold iron/etc weapons easier to use for DR purposes.


Quiting myself from a couple of pages back as I agree with A_D.

Even if the damage on the rings is nerfed, all melee and ranged classes should benefit from them.

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 07:31 AM
If every bad guy dealt 12000000000 damage per hit, would a 600,000 hp monk be OP? No. However, if you could get a 600K hp monk in DDO with the current system, that would be OP. I only make this ridiculous argument to show that the idea of "overpowered" is relative to the system involved.

That said, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A FREAKING CASTER? Or, better yet, HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED WITH A FREAKING CASTER? Yes, that's supposed to be shouting. Why? Because people keep spouting out how monks are OP when you have FREAKING CASTERS IN THIS GAME!

Monks, even with this boost to Earth stance to, you know, actually make it viable, are no where near OP. No where. Near. OP. For that to happen, they would have to be able to deal their damage without closing to melee, be able to do that damage to multiple mobs at once, and would have to have perfect self-healing. None of those are true. And then, what's the change to monks that's so OP? One of their stances gets a boost to make it viable to tank with. Not optimal, but viable (Pally's and Fighters still get more for tanking than monks do, including intimidate as a class skill). And suddenly, the sky is falling, and monks are going to take over DDO.

Nevermind that, even with this change, you'll never see a monk solo ToD. You'll never see a monk solo epics. You'll never see a monk break 1000 hp without gimping it's build to all hell. Monks are not OP, not with this change, not with casters the way they are.

So rather than scream and kick that monks are OP, why not be happy that the devs are showing love to a melee class, and then ask for that same love to get shown to the rest of the melees, so that there can be balance at end-game between the classes again.

I wasn't going to reply, as you completely missed the obvious point (you don't do obvious, do you..) But I'm not that good..

As sephiroth already pointed out, it is about being overpowered in comparison to other melees. You can't compare apples and oranges. You yourself used this as an arguement against my post. Melees and casters are not part of the same system. And yes I know how overpowered casters are and have always been. It's a different discussion. As is whether I have played a caster :)

In regards to monks soloing, my monk solo capped in lightning speed. I know a few monk builds that have soloed most raids, including vod, or duoed tod, shroud, etc. Remember that thing called multiclassing? ;)

Maybe my post was too aggressive and deserved the negative rep. But at least it was based on logic and experience, not on whether I like or dislike someone.

Aaxeyu
11-03-2011, 08:16 AM
As sephiroth already pointed out, it is about being overpowered in comparison to other melees. You can't compare apples and oranges. You yourself used this as an arguement against my post. Melees and casters are not part of the same system.

No mate. They are part of the same system; the game. Casters and melee have to be compared to eachother.

It's true that monks are overpowered compared to the other melee classes, but I still want to see even more buffs so that there is one more class at the top level.

Taimasan
11-03-2011, 08:30 AM
I think people should wait for the official U12 release notes before they start staying how dps is going to stand for the next say year or so...yea? I have the feeling that they want the so called "Christmas" update to shine. In short, I believe that more than just monks are going to get additions. Lets just wait for official notes before we start judging who is #1 tank or dps, with subsequent, systematical, inevitable-emotional-forummeltdown.

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 08:32 AM
No mate. They are part of the same system; the game. Casters and melee have to be compared to eachother.

It's true that monks are overpowered compared to the other melee classes, but I still want to see even more buffs so that there is one more class at the top level.

I disagree because this isn't a PvP game. In a game where PvP is a major part of the game, I agree with you. In DDO, whether the casters are more overpowered against the melees, or vice versa, does not affect the game system.

The reason is that when people decide to roll a character they don't say "I have 6 casters, I'd like to roll a melee, but casters are so overpowered so I will roll my 7th caster". It is whether I will roll a caster vs a melee.

You decide you want to play a melee and then you narrow down the choices against your preferences. Do I want high AC? High DPS? High survivalability? High tanking ability? That's where Monks will always be a choice in ALL these options. You never say "I want to play a DPS melee, therefore I will roll a caster".

It's the same for casters. When you decide to roll one, you ask yourself, do you want insane DPS, high DCs and sirvivalability, soloing ability, party support, etc, and decide.

Casting spells and slashing mobs are both very interesting and very unique playstyles, and the vast majority of people rolls both types of characters.

SableShadow
11-03-2011, 08:40 AM
You never say "I want to play a DPS melee, therefore I will roll a caster".


If you want to gear your melee quickly and efficiently, you will have at least one caster of some flavor, whether you enjoy the play style or not.

DragonRog
11-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Í think monks are in line atm.
Yes they have the holyburst on there ring but they dont have gs and so far also no epic weapons with a slot (lob will come but so far almost ever monk dont have a lev3 crafted handwraps).
Maybe they will need a downgreat after the lob weapons, but i dont think so. There dps is comming from all the bursts.
What means in the futer a monk will have holy/shocking/acid/fire burst. Sounds a lot dps but if you have a look in it many moobs dont take fire/acid and also alot dont take elec.
If we get everyone the holyburst on a ring (even with lower dps), my barb with an epic sos will be dancing for atleast a week :p
Means i dont have to get the temp red crystals and break all the dr.

I woud say we wait for a bit and see what happens if all the monks have there lev 3 alchemics. Until then i woud not change anything.

Aaxeyu
11-03-2011, 08:59 AM
I disagree because this isn't a PvP game. In a game where PvP is a major part of the game, I agree with you. In DDO, whether the casters are more overpowered against the melees, or vice versa, does not affect the game system.

It doesn't matter if it's a pvp game or not. Balance between all classes is still important. That becomes obvious in extreme examples like if casters had 1 million times the DPS of a melee.


The reason is that when people decide to roll a character they don't say "I have 6 casters, I'd like to roll a melee, but casters are so overpowered so I will roll my 7th caster". It is whether I will roll a caster vs a melee.

You decide you want to play a melee and then you narrow down the choices against your preferences. Do I want high AC? High DPS? High survivalability? High tanking ability? That's where Monks will always be a choice in ALL these options. You never say "I want to play a DPS melee, therefore I will roll a caster".

Yeah if they already have 6 casters I think it's important that they can roll something else without the feeling that they are downgrading themselves in pretty much every aspect.

I think that when most people roll a character they first decide what the character will do at endgame. The sad thing is that if the answer is anything other than tanking, caster is the by far best option. If you want to play DPS, play a sorc. No melee can come close.

If you roll a melee DPS then you obviosuly don't care about being top DPS, so what does it matter if you don't roll the top melee DPS?
On the other hand if monks where equal to caster DPS then you could roll a melee DPS without being subpar.


It's the same for casters. When you decide to roll one, you ask yourself, do you want insane DPS, high DCs and sirvivalability, soloing ability, party support, etc, and decide.

Casting spells and slashing mobs are both very interesting and very unique playstyles, and the vast majority of people rolls both types of characters.

Yes, they are different playstyles, but it's still important to have balance between them. Deciding that you want to melee should not mean that you will have to make a subpar character.

Bottom line is, balance is important and the fewer underpowered classes the better as it gives people more choice.

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 09:05 AM
If you want to gear your melee quickly and efficiently, you will have at least one caster of some flavor, whether you enjoy the play style or not.

Errr... That's... irrelevant?

I'm talking about whether casters being overpowered would give you second thoughts on rolling a melee. The answer is no.
Monks being overpowered giving you second thoughts on playing any other melee class? In many cases, the answer is yes.

SableShadow
11-03-2011, 09:08 AM
Errr... That's... irrelevant?

Ah.

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 09:12 AM
It doesn't matter if it's a pvp game or not. Balance between all classes is still important. That becomes obvious in extreme examples like if casters had 1 million times the DPS of a melee.



Yeah if they already have 6 casters I think it's important that they can roll something else without the feeling that they are downgrading themselves in pretty much every aspect.

I think that when most people roll a character they first decide what the character will do at endgame. The sad thing is that if the answer is anything other than tanking, caster is the by far best option. If you want to play DPS, play a sorc. No melee can come close.

If you roll a melee DPS then you obviosuly don't care about being top DPS, so what does it matter if you don't roll the top melee DPS?
On the other hand if monks where equal to caster DPS then you could roll a melee DPS without being subpar.



Yes, they are different playstyles, but it's still important to have balance between them. Deciding that you want to melee should not mean that you will have to make a subpar character.

Bottom line is, balance is important and the fewer underpowered classes the better as it gives people more choice.
We will just disagree then. As much as I love my wizard, I thoroughly enjoy playing a melee monk build and never compare her to my caster. I do compare my monk to my exploiter ranger though. She has been collecting dust for a while now.

elraido
11-03-2011, 09:29 AM
Monks being overpowered giving you second thoughts on playing any other melee class? In many cases, the answer is yes.

Nope. I can't stand the monk play style. I got one up to level 4 or so and called it quits. I don't care how "over powered" they are, they just aren't my cup of tea. For most people this game isn't about maxing out a toon, it is about playing for fun...and some people don't like the way monks play

BDS
11-03-2011, 09:58 AM
I'm confused. I thought I went to a thread on Elite VoD loot. Lets keep it on topic. Start a new thread if you want to compare different melee classes in terms of u12 changes.

Sarezar
11-03-2011, 10:03 AM
Nope. I can't stand the monk play style. I got one up to level 4 or so and called it quits. I don't care how "over powered" they are, they just aren't my cup of tea. For most people this game isn't about maxing out a toon, it is about playing for fun...and some people don't like the way monks play

Which is why I said "in many cases". There are many players who do think like that, should we just ignore them?

Anyway, I respect BDS's comment, so I'll stop here.

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 10:05 AM
No mate. They are part of the same system; the game. Casters and melee have to be compared to eachother.

It's true that monks are overpowered compared to the other melee classes, but I still want to see even more buffs so that there is one more class at the top level.

I agree with your main point, but I disagree with the assertion that monks are overpowered compared to teh other melee classes. Monks are certainly flexible and there's absoultely no one better at smacking down a portal (aside from a FvS or Cleric soloing the portal with Divine Punishment), but they can't do all (or even most) of the things that people are claiming for them at the same time. If they could beat Barbarian/Fighter DPS *and* have end game relevant AC *and* have the strongest and most stuns *and* have the second best saves in the game *and* act as better tanks than anyone else in the game, etc.... Well, then they obviously would be stronger than they should be. But they can't. They can do a few of those things with some fun, but relatively minor benefits (like faster run speed, Monk ki wings, etc). But they have to pick and choose. They can be DPS (and very good DPS if they have wraps that aren't broken). They can be exceptionally good tanks if they build their character carefully and pick up enough +hate gear. They can be quite good at some of the tactics (but not better than a tactics focused Fighter or Barbarian).

But they can't do that all at once. Even a third life Monk that buys a supreme tome of +3 stats is going to struggle to get enough stat points to spread around. Monks have no dump stat at all unless you want to start dropping some of the abilities that some people are claiming for them. And you only get 5 points of stat level ups. So is that Str for DPS and Stunning Blow? Is that Wisdom for AC and Monk ability DC's? Is that Dex for Reflex save and AC? Is it Int or Cha because you want people to make fun of you?

Monks are exceptionally difficult to make well and exceptionally easy to bork during character creation and leveling up. They are much more complicated to play than a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue or melee Ranger. And even if they are played superbly with an outstanding build, there are still many characters that will outperform them in whatever role they choose for themselves. Monks can be really outstanding, but most aren't. Just like most classes, but it's more obvious with Monks because the difference between a mediocre Monk and an outstanding Monk is much greater than the difference between a mediocre Barbarian and an outstanding Barbarian.

DeafeningWhisper
11-03-2011, 10:17 AM
Hummm, where is the VoD loot thread? I read the last 6 pages and all I see is monk this and monk that...

Is VoD any harder then before? Is the new loot in anyway rarer then the old one?

Aaxeyu
11-03-2011, 10:20 AM
I agree with your main point, but I disagree with the assertion that monks are overpowered compared to teh other melee classes. Monks are certainly flexible and there's absoultely no one better at smacking down a portal (aside from a FvS or Cleric soloing the portal with Divine Punishment), but they can't do all (or even most) of the things that people are claiming for them at the same time. If they could beat Barbarian/Fighter DPS *and* have end game relevant AC *and* have the strongest and most stuns *and* have the second best saves in the game *and* act as better tanks than anyone else in the game, etc.... Well, then they obviously would be stronger than they should be. But they can't. They can do a few of those things with some fun, but relatively minor benefits (like faster run speed, Monk ki wings, etc). But they have to pick and choose. They can be DPS (and very good DPS if they have wraps that aren't broken). They can be exceptionally good tanks if they build their character carefully and pick up enough +hate gear. They can be quite good at some of the tactics (but not better than a tactics focused Fighter or Barbarian).

But they can't do that all at once. Even a third life Monk that buys a supreme tome of +3 stats is going to struggle to get enough stat points to spread around. Monks have no dump stat at all unless you want to start dropping some of the abilities that some people are claiming for them. And you only get 5 points of stat level ups. So is that Str for DPS and Stunning Blow? Is that Wisdom for AC and Monk ability DC's? Is that Dex for Reflex save and AC? Is it Int or Cha because you want people to make fun of you?

Monks are exceptionally difficult to make well and exceptionally easy to bork during character creation and leveling up. They are much more complicated to play than a Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Rogue or melee Ranger. And even if they are played superbly with an outstanding build, there are still many characters that will outperform them in whatever role they choose for themselves. Monks can be really outstanding, but most aren't. Just like most classes, but it's more obvious with Monks because the difference between a mediocre Monk and an outstanding Monk is much greater than the difference between a mediocre Barbarian and an outstanding Barbarian.

You are underestimating what monks can do.
Did you see the new stances?

Oh, and following a build from the forums isn't hard.

biggin
11-03-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm confused. I thought I went to a thread on Elite VoD loot. Lets keep it on topic. Start a new thread if you want to compare different melee classes in terms of u12 changes.

No ****. How many pages talking about Monks are we on?

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 10:27 AM
You are underestimating what monks can do.
Did you see the new stances?

Oh, and following a build from the forums isn't hard.

Following a build from the forums isn't hard.

Figuring out which builds are worth following is hard. Especially for Monks.

sirgog
11-04-2011, 05:33 PM
Hummm, where is the VoD loot thread? I read the last 6 pages and all I see is monk this and monk that...

Is VoD any harder then before? Is the new loot in anyway rarer then the old one?

VoD was made harder in U11 not U12. The new loot seems more common than the old loot.

Xaxx
11-04-2011, 05:49 PM
You are underestimating what monks can do.
Did you see the new stances?

Oh, and following a build from the forums isn't hard.

You underestimate how many creation points and aps monks have....


you know if monks had 48 creation points and 140 aps... then yeah they could probably come close to pulling off what a few of you say they can... MAAAAAAAAAAAAAYBE.

As it is... can they do whats all on the list.... no... can they be 2nd best in all of those.... nope... can they be second best on a few of those depending on build and equipment.... yeah pick two off the list and roll with it.

I'd love to see all this monk love that has been troted out here actually show up... if by monk love you mean constantly trying to fix **** they've constantly borked by trying to fix it another way.... or do you mean they actually got one c omplete pre.. and that their 2nd is 2/3rds of the way done... hmm
figher 2 COMPLETE pres
barb complete pre thats one of the best in game
ranger 2 complete pres and a 3rd started
pally 3 complete pres
rogue 1 complete 2 partial

Shall I keep going?

so two of the monk stances got upgraded and their capstones actually brought in line with the other top teir cap stones... and thats enough monk love to make them number 1 on any list and make them be able to do EVERYTHING.....yep dude keep drinkin the kool-aid.. dont forget the tin foil hat to.

Look at the recent fort and monk changes.. do you know what they're making monks into... the debuffers of the game.... oh wait you'll just add that to the list, best debuffers in the game to. Heres a fantastic idea.... go play a monk.. go tr a monk to legend.... then you come up with a build and an equipment set that lets you do EVERYTHING you guys have listed above... then come post that build and equipment list.... maybe that will keep you from complaining that everything is op except your favorite class for a while.

oh and for the loot part of the thread.... hound bracers... mmmmmm..... mele flavored casters will enjoy those very much.

waterboytkd
11-04-2011, 07:40 PM
As for monks beating barb dps...

Well, I had this lengthy post that did all the math, and my browser ate it. Don't feel like re-writing that all over again.

But basically, a fully gear 40 str horc monk in Wind stance (which turned out to be higher dps than Earth because of all the extra elemental damages involved; also note, that the 40 str on any monk not in fire stance is unrealistically high) was 150 dps behind a horc barbarian with a 40 str unraged (so 60 raged and frenzied) with an eSoS. Both were given top weapons for their class, as well as top ToD sets.

End-game barbs are > end game monks in terms of dps. By a pretty big margin.

As for what people are saying monks can do, as Xaxx said, they can only do SOME of those things on any one build. Certainly not all. Especially since the list of monks' abilities tends to include both exclusive light and exclusive dark stuff. Yes, monks are very versatile. Yes, there are many ways one can build a monk. That does not make them OP.

Taimasan
11-04-2011, 10:21 PM
As for monks beating barb dps...
/snip
barbarian ... with an eSoS. Both were given top weapons for their class, as well as top ToD sets.

End-game barbs are > end game monks in terms of dps. By a pretty big margin.

/snip



Just wanted to clarify the weapon variables in your calculations that you lost. Was the -- Monk Top Weapon: 2x-3x Air Alchemical Handwraps VS. Barbarian Top Weapon: Epic Sword of Shadows.? Or otherwise? I might of missed it though. Thanks.

waterboytkd
11-04-2011, 11:36 PM
Just wanted to clarify the weapon variables in your calculations that you lost. Was the -- Monk Top Weapon: 2x-3x Air Alchemical Handwraps VS. Barbarian Top Weapon: Epic Sword of Shadows.? Or otherwise? I might of missed it though. Thanks.

Yeah, sorry. Like I said, I had this big write up and lost it. My last post was probably a bit spartan on details.

My monk was using Tier 3 (Air/Air/Air) Byeshk Handwraps with +7 slotted in the red slot, had Holy Burst ToD, another Elemental Burst ToD, Oremi's Set (which is higher dps than Shintao's, even if in Earth stance), and a FB set. I did not include things like eClaw, or eCharged Gauntlets, eBrawler's Gloves, or any kind of Sneak Attack. Granted, eCharged Gauntlets/eBrawler's Gloves and Sneak Attack would both favor monk (damage on hit, monk gets more attacks, the damage isn't augmented by crits).

Also, my monk was in Wind Stance, because the 10% doublestrike was more dps than the x3 crit multiplier.

My barbarian was using an eSoS, the Ravager set, and the Shintao set. That's all he had going for damage. I did not include anything like Seeker, as well, which would be a major advantage for, well, just about any weapon user over a monk due to their terrible crit profile.

Taimasan
11-05-2011, 02:56 AM
I would like to see those calculations, shame you lost em.

ThePrisoner
11-07-2011, 09:10 PM
Hummm, where is the VoD loot thread? I read the last 6 pages and all I see is monk this and monk that...

Is VoD any harder then before? Is the new loot in anyway rarer then the old one?

2 linked items and then 19 pages of opinions, opinions about those opinions, and god knows what else. Sifting through these pages is such a waste of time.

I wish these loot threads could just contain pictures of the loot. I would much rather see that than the same six people blabbering page after page.

gloopygloop
11-07-2011, 09:21 PM
2 linked items and then 19 pages of opinions, opinions about those opinions, and god knows what else. Sifting through these pages is such a waste of time.

I wish these loot threads could just contain pictures of the loot. I would much rather see that than the same six people blabbering page after page.

Simple solution: look at the picture and then unsubscribe from the thread after you make your contribution to the 19 pages of opinions by adding your opinion.

elraido
11-08-2011, 09:03 AM
2 linked items and then 19 pages of opinions, opinions about those opinions, and god knows what else. Sifting through these pages is such a waste of time.

I wish these loot threads could just contain pictures of the loot. I would much rather see that than the same six people blabbering page after page.

Change the amount of responses per page. I only have 4 pages listed for this thread.

solacerodgers
11-09-2011, 08:47 AM
Just a last thought on the monk topic ........... when my monk can go farm epic scrolls in echrono or sands then you can complain until then monks overpowered i think not. When the wraps of Wail come out you let me know ...

gloopygloop
11-09-2011, 08:51 AM
Just a reminder to everyone who runs VoD on Elite: If that sword pops up in the chest under your name, please let it rot in the chest instead of inflicting it on any Paladins in the party who might mistakenly think that it's a good weapon.

elraido
11-09-2011, 09:36 AM
Just a reminder to everyone who runs VoD on Elite: If that sword pops up in the chest under your name, please let it rot in the chest instead of inflicting it on any Paladins in the party who might mistakenly think that it's a good weapon.

Yeah, that is great advice. :rolleyes:

RedDragonScale
11-30-2011, 03:47 PM
Any changes to these in the 12.1 patch?

Havok.cry
11-30-2011, 04:08 PM
You know that one ring... i'd like one for my wf AM so I can run yugo pots and maintain 100% fort.

crimsonrazac
11-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Just a last thought on the monk topic ........... when my monk can go farm epic scrolls in echrono or sands then you can complain until then monks overpowered i think not. When the wraps of Wail come out you let me know ...

I've been scroll farming echrono on my monk since it came out :D

sephiroth1084
12-01-2011, 04:33 PM
Just a reminder to everyone who runs VoD on Elite: If that sword pops up in the chest under your name, please let it rot in the chest instead of inflicting it on any Paladins in the party who might mistakenly think that it's a good weapon.
The sword is likely getting fixed/upgraded at some point in the future. Paladins should be hunting it down now and banking it until then.