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GoldyGopher
10-26-2011, 11:09 AM
Am I reading this correctly?
I think I cried a little.


From Release Notes:
The Vale of Twilight


The Shroud
When completing the Shroud, instead of a generic list of level-appropriate random gear, you will now get a selection of Shroud ingredients, which can include anything from small/medium/large ingredients to power cells, Shards of Power, and more!
Extra chests will appear at the end of phase 5 on higher difficulty settings
One additional chest will appear on hard difficulty
Two additional chests will appear on elite
Arraetrikos went on a diet, and now has fewer hitpoints on hard and elite.
Shavarath blades now hurt more in general, but additionally will now scale with difficulty.
Shavarath blades appear a bit sooner in phase 5

FranOhmsford
10-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Wow, Wow and Wow again.

Generic Wow btw not W of W.

Seriously Harry going on a diet takes his hp away? - guess he forgot to exercise while he was at it.

Valindria
10-26-2011, 11:29 AM
Am I reading this correctly?
I think I cried a little.

Do the extra chests have guaranteed ingredient drops, a chance at ingredients, or just random junk?

I guess I don't know that I see the issue. Normal shrouds should be popular for pugs as with the end rewards you have a chance at 3 larges? Elite now has a reason to be run more than one time.

Edit: I am dumb, missed that they are probably tears of joy.

Matuse
10-26-2011, 11:35 AM
I wonder how this change will affect the 20th completion list.

I really do not want to get a list of small ingredients and an essence of cleansing.

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 11:36 AM
Why did they decrease the boss hit points on elite? Just curious. The rest appear to be good changes although please do not alter the 20/40/60 rewards for the Shroud those are really nice and make the shroud worth running, but are not overpowered.

Xenostrata
10-26-2011, 11:39 AM
Shiny, but what's this about blades appearing in phase 5? Does it mean in that area by the portals that no one actually goes to during the boss fight?

And is the ingredient list every completion, or every 5th/10th/something?

ghortagg
10-26-2011, 11:49 AM
Please, please, please, please please, include Blank ingredients (funk, peebles etc) in the the new ingredient list.

Please :)

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 11:49 AM
Shiny, but what's this about blades appearing in phase 5? Does it mean in that area by the portals that no one actually goes to during the boss fight?

And is the ingredient list every completion, or every 5th/10th/something?

The spinning blades appear if you take a long time killing the boss. They are interspersed throughout the room with alot of the blades on the altar area.. What that post indicates is the blades will start appearing sooner...

kcru
10-26-2011, 11:49 AM
Why did they decrease the boss hit points on elite? Just curious.

Probably a combination of making it more desirable to try, and if the blades hurt more then there may be more healing going on and it didn't seem reasonable to have the fight drag out that long (ie healers running out of SP, etc.)

Valindria
10-26-2011, 11:54 AM
Please, please, please, please please, include Blank ingredients (funk, peebles etc) in the the new ingredient list.

Please :)

That along with stones so I never have to run the quests after flagging. That would make me happy.

maddmatt70
10-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Probably a combination of making it more desirable to try, and if the blades hurt more then there may be more healing going on and it didn't seem reasonable to have the fight drag out that long (ie healers running out of SP, etc.)

First, we are talking about elite. A guildie of mine ran an elite shroud run in the last few days with 2 caster 1 cleric 1 levelling battle cleric and the rest mixture of melee/ranged. We had a mixture of end game characters and levelling characters which had a wide range of gear. After running it on elite it definitely seemed you wanted more end game characters and a more traditional party with a bard and 2 full fledged healers, but it did not seem too extreme. The blade damage is decent even now so this kind of means do not stay in for the blades on part 4 and perhaps you have to overpower Horoth quicker on part 5. I am not really sure why the changes to elite..

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 12:05 PM
That along with stones so I never have to run the quests after flagging. That would make me happy.

Heck yeah!

Man, I like this change, little bit less of a grind with some extra ingreds. Might actually get to do a hard/elite someday now too!

patang01
10-26-2011, 12:06 PM
Am I reading this correctly?
I think I cried a little.

Sweet Jesus.

A reason to actually do it on elite.

Hopefully one of those extra chests on elite can drop large mats like in part 4. Here's hoping Turbine actually listened to the community.

I'm excited about this AND the possibility of new loot out of elite hound and VoD.

Eladrin
10-26-2011, 12:09 PM
I wonder how this change will affect the 20th completion list.

I really do not want to get a list of small ingredients and an essence of cleansing.
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).

Asmodeus451
10-26-2011, 12:10 PM
/waiting for Sirgog to notice this change

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 12:13 PM
Where are the release notes, couldn't find them with a search?

patang01
10-26-2011, 12:14 PM
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).


Thank

You!

Can you answer if the extra chests also drops possible large mats or if it's random items only?

junior_w
10-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Where are the release notes, couldn't find them with a search?

Release Notes this way --> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

patang01
10-26-2011, 12:18 PM
Why did they decrease the boss hit points on elite? Just curious. The rest appear to be good changes although please do not alter the 20/40/60 rewards for the Shroud those are really nice and make the shroud worth running, but are not overpowered.

It was way overdone in HP. I mean I ran it a couple of times and it wasn't that it was impossible to finish but even with 2-3 healers and several highend arcanes they were running dry before he was even half way done.

It was a grind that more or less forced even perfectly specced toons to waste resources.

The idea of lowering HP somewhat and increasing blade damage have merit; it adds the effect of do you waste resources by trying to heal through the blade damage to finish it quicker or do you rather plant for 2-3 rounds and avoid the blades?

Now you're talking tactics and not just grinding HP and brute force.

And maybe the blades will actually matter more in part 5 - again more tactical than HP grinding.

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 12:27 PM
Release Notes this way --> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

Ty.

Some good changes!

AMDarkwolf
10-26-2011, 12:30 PM
yay. Another positive thing. :D

If I could +1 the dev who came up with this idea, I would.

karsion
10-26-2011, 12:35 PM
yay. Another positive thing. :D

If I could +1 the dev who came up with this idea, I would.

Then +1 forum users as this idea was discussed some time ago ;)

Galeria
10-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Awesome changes. Thanks, devs!

+1

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 12:45 PM
I'm so freaking happy about this I might just randomly +1 some people posting here!

Maeste
10-26-2011, 12:48 PM
So they are playing with the blades does that mean we'll see Blade Storm Fragments?

Vissarion
10-26-2011, 12:50 PM
http://www.brandongparker.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/so-much-win.jpg

This is just fantastic for those of us with severe cases of altitis.

Eladrin
10-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Can you answer if the extra chests also drops possible large mats or if it's random items only?
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

Scraap
10-26-2011, 12:56 PM
Good change.

Edit: Master Shards?

somenewnoob
10-26-2011, 12:59 PM
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

Or yes It is random loot only!!

OH MY HEAD HURTS!! WHICH IS IT!!!

Valindria
10-26-2011, 12:59 PM
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

Going to assume yes it can drop larges because otherwise it's potentially a pointless change.

Dlusin
10-26-2011, 01:01 PM
Some of the "more"?

Eladrin
10-26-2011, 01:02 PM
Edit: Master Shards?

Shards of Power. Sorry, name changed before it was released, but things are always their original name to me. (You should hear us talk about the crafting system internally.)

Eladiun
10-26-2011, 01:06 PM
I love this change.

ghortagg
10-26-2011, 01:07 PM
Yes.

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".


So i m guessing the more is not blank ingredients (pebbles, funk). otherwise it would be listed.

I am a sad panda

PS: if it s not too late to change, please include those (please)

BladeTricks
10-26-2011, 01:23 PM
That is so awesome!! Finally a reason to run Shroud on harder difficulties. Can't wait!

B0ltdrag0n
10-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Are they auto ingredient drops? or are the xx% like the part 4 chest?

mournbladereigns
10-26-2011, 01:26 PM
Then +1 forum users as this idea was discussed some time ago ;)

Inconceivable! Everyone knows the devs/Turbine doesn't listen to the players. Now matter how many of these changes sound like player suggestions on the forums. A sure case of independent invention.

PNellesen
10-26-2011, 01:27 PM
please, please, please, please please, include blank ingredients (funk, peebles etc) in the the new ingredient list.

Please :)

/signed!!!!

B0ltdrag0n
10-26-2011, 01:29 PM
/signed!!!! Or better yet...whole blanks ;)

fasteddie8989
10-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

Is the "more" green steel blanks?

PNellesen
10-26-2011, 01:42 PM
Or better yet...whole blanks ;)

Well... ok, but maybe only on Elite :)

dunklezhan
10-26-2011, 01:48 PM
this is a great change. Great. Now I can maybe complete some of the items I want without gouging out my eyes with a spoon at the monotony.

I don't want to see wedges and vale ingredients drop though - I think its fine that you have to run those quests to make an item. I would like to see the drop rates on the vale ingredients improved though, especially the rarer ones, because honestly, that can get painful, and means even with different characters those quests turn into a hassle to run, whereas shroud is 30 minutes every three days if you complete, which on its own with a much reduced need to run the flagging quests as much, would be finally bearable to me.

But the main change: awesomesauce. A reason for those 20 groups to run higher difficulties, and a shorter grind overall (I reckon that's maybe *wets finger, puts it in the air* 25% less grind.) Could it be even lower? For me yes. But what's in the release notes is still very much: Yes. Yes please.

Zeruell
10-26-2011, 01:48 PM
Is the "more" green steel blanks?

A possibility, but I'd bet essences of cleansing would be a more likely candidate -- the updated list seems geared toward "generally useful in GS crafting", and while a fresh blank out of whole cloth would certainly qualify, the sheer number of possible blanks would put a damper on your chances of getting anything genuinely useful.

EDIT: Or maybe +3 tomes -- hey, if they're not proper raid loot/20th list material anymore, they've got to drop somewhere...

Angelus_dead
10-26-2011, 02:11 PM
Hopefully these end rewards are where the Greensteel Weave Handwraps have been hiding all these years..

That increase to damage of flying blades had BETTER be accompanied by reduced lag of blade movement!

Elegorne
10-26-2011, 02:17 PM
Hopefully these end rewards are where the Greensteel Weave Handwraps have been hiding all these years..

I can hear it now....

"YES!!! Pulled a set of GS wraps!!! Finally!!!...oh, wait, they're borked, too..."

Seriously, though....these changes nearly made me shed a tear of joy, also....these and the crafting mats no longer having any weight make me a happy dwarf :D

fasteddie8989
10-26-2011, 02:18 PM
A possibility, but I'd bet essences of cleansing would be a more likely candidate -- the updated list seems geared toward "generally useful in GS crafting", and while a fresh blank out of whole cloth would certainly qualify, the sheer number of possible blanks would put a damper on your chances of getting anything genuinely useful.

EDIT: Or maybe +3 tomes -- hey, if they're not proper raid loot/20th list material anymore, they've got to drop somewhere...

Altho if you got a not so useful gs blank it could make for a great res clicky, haste clicky, or many other useful but not worth grinding (funk, pebbles...ect). And with all the extra small and med ingredents that most people have it would be a great use for them :)

kcru
10-26-2011, 02:34 PM
Altho if you got a not so useful gs blank it could make for a great res clicky, haste clicky, or many other useful but not worth grinding (funk, pebbles...ect). And with all the extra small and med ingredents that most people have it would be a great use for them :)


Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.

fasteddie8989
10-26-2011, 02:44 PM
They are "rare" drops not every time. When i first ran the vale quests they were with vets who zerged thru them, becasue they were farming ingredents. How does this help new people to the vale if they are zerged thru, enter shroud and are then called noob becasue they have not needed to learn how to play thier character.

The worst people to learn from are people who are sick of running a quest, but must to get something they want/need. Those type of poeple want to get it over as quick as possible.

I dont forsee everyone stop running vale quests, becasue the odds of getting the green steel item you want are not good. 1 out of what 6 equipment slots and many diffrent wepons.

We do not even know if the "rare" drop will be gs or cleansing or +3 tome or a magical unicorn, but discusion is good so the devs have things to think about when they add to the loot rewards.

patang01
10-26-2011, 02:51 PM
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

That is awesome.

I expect a revival on shroud runs now with people running it more on hard and elite for the extra rewards; just as it always should have been. Heck, I might even pull my FvS out and might even consider wasting resources for the chance of better mat drops.

patang01
10-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.

I agree to some degree. There should always be a reason to run the Vale quests, but I can solo all of them on my FvS so it's not the worst thing (for me personally).

delsoboss
10-26-2011, 03:06 PM
Uhm we all cheer about the added loot and rightly so but the shavarath's blades change troubles me.
How much is the damage now?

Ryiah
10-26-2011, 03:07 PM
Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.

Why would they stop? They're great experience for leveling.

fasteddie8989
10-26-2011, 03:16 PM
That is awesome.

I expect a revival on shroud runs now with people running it more on hard and elite for the extra rewards; just as it always should have been. Heck, I might even pull my FvS out and might even consider wasting resources for the chance of better mat drops.

Ah turbine is smart mana pots for a chance at a large scale. I see what they did there :)

NytCrawlr
10-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Good! Can't wait for this change and might be able to finish my first greensteel soon.

jejeba86
10-26-2011, 04:04 PM
Yes.

It would be really mean to leave it to people to discuss whether that was "Yes, I can answer", or "Yes, it can drop larges". ;)

The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thaaaaaaank you.... did I say thank you? :):):):):):):):):)

What are the chances, Eladrin?
Both are 100%?



Since Turbine is making an effort on making playing in harder difficulties worthy, here is a suggestion on how to make one of the most played raids attractive on harder difficulties:

On Hard
One additional chest in each couple that has 50% chance to drop ingredients.

On Elite
One additional chest in each couple that has 100% chance to drop ingredients.

I would surely play elite.

MrkGrismer
10-26-2011, 04:45 PM
Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.

You don't need a 'proper group' for any of the vale quests except possibly Let Sleeping Dust Lie, and only if you are not a Sor/Wiz.

And I would love to have another way of getting blanks aside from the auction house and running all five quests repeatedly.

WruntJunior
10-26-2011, 05:40 PM
You don't even need a proper group for dust, all you need is self-healing and you can solo it, assuming you can keep from killing spiders.

badbob117
10-26-2011, 05:48 PM
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).

Hey Eladrin how bout you guys look into removing all the +2 tomes as 20th reward for this raid. Every 20th completion i Rarely even see a +3 in that list! 1 maybe 2 if i am lucky. Increase the +3 tomes from here. It is still a 2 month grind to 20. It is getting sad seeing six +2 tomes, One +3 and a essence every 60 days.

Please increase the amount of +3's to that list man!

sirgog
10-26-2011, 06:04 PM
/waiting for Sirgog to notice this change

:)

Finally. I'd much rather run Shroud 10 times on Elite to make an item than 20-30 times on Normal. I don't know how many times I've suggested versions of this change.

I wonder if the new chests drop Shards of Supreme Power? If not, they'll replace LDS as the limiting reagent for Shroud item upgrades.

Might get a full group together, knock out an Elite run on Lama, and let folks know what it's like.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 06:42 PM
So i m guessing the more is not blank ingredients (pebbles, funk). otherwise it would be listed.


PS: if it s not too late to change, please include those (please)
Also interested to know, and also hoping the list includes those.


Hey Eladrin how bout you guys look into removing all the +2 tomes as 20th reward for this raid. Every 20th completion i Rarely even see a +3 in that list! 1 maybe 2 if i am lucky. Increase the +3 tomes from here. It is still a 2 month grind to 20. It is getting sad seeing six +2 tomes, One +3 and a essence every 60 days.

Please increase the amount of +3's to that list man!
Would at least like the list weighted a little more heavily toward +3 tomes than +2s. I've had three iterations of 20th completions that had zero +3 tomes on them, and have had a few with only a single, unusable +3 tome.

Also, do the additional end chests in hard and elite have a chance at dropping anything interesting, like +3 tomes?

Meat-Head
10-26-2011, 06:57 PM
Changes = Awesome

sirgog
10-26-2011, 07:04 PM
Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.

The new players will tackle those quests without zerging vets, and take longer to complete but probably enjoy them more. They are all really accessible on Normal difficulty.

That said, I could get behind 1 twig/funk/etc material on Normal Vale quests, 1d2 on Hard and 1d3 on Elite.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 07:24 PM
The new players will tackle those quests without zerging vets, and take longer to complete but probably enjoy them more. They are all really accessible on Normal difficulty.

That said, I could get behind 1 twig/funk/etc material on Normal Vale quests, 1d2 on Hard and 1d3 on Elite.
That would be excellent! Though I'd prefer 1 on Normal, 1d2 on Hard and 1d2+1 on Elite.


Bad idea for the game. If all the vets stop running the vale quests then none of the new people will ever be able to get a proper group going.
Uh...what? Do people really need "proper" groups for these? Do people really need vets for these? The quests haven't gotten any more difficult than they were originally, while our gear and abilities have gone waaaaaay up, even by level 16, and I feel like many people are running these now at level 17 rather than at 13, which was the norm when they first came out.

If we could run and complete these at level 13 with no PrEs, no ridiculous twink gear or awesome items from stuff like Lordsmark or Cannith Crafting, without downward dungeon scaling, new spells, etc... I'm fairly confident that players these days should be able to complete these quests at level 15-17 without requiring a veteran or two along to babysit them.

Elixxer
10-26-2011, 07:40 PM
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).

Thank you! This change makes me want to run shroud.

QuantumFX
10-26-2011, 09:07 PM
The end reward list can drop small, medium, or large ingredients, power cells, master shards, and more. Some things are rarer than others. Especially some of the "more".

I take it the “more” has a +3 in it's name?

Either way, great change. (Now, could you add the base item ingredients to the end reward lists of vale quests?)

noinfo
10-26-2011, 09:13 PM
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).

Well how about considering changing the lists to include no +2 tomes, seriously had have no place on that rewards list, now it would be just a slap in the face to get only +2's.

BlackSteel
10-26-2011, 09:33 PM
Thank you! This change makes me want to run shroud.

aye, it'll make its way back into the regular rotation for me I think. For awhile its been just a one time n/h/e for exp on TR's

OpallNotten
10-26-2011, 09:40 PM
Is there any way we can change the Alters?

Cannith crafting, Cove crafting, and a few others I think, all tell you what is required to craft certain things.
It really isn't a huge deal, but it would be nice to not have to pull out the crafting planner when I am going to make something different.
*I say different because I think most everyone knows the Min2 formula by heart:p*

Does anyone think that would be a good idea?


Opall

FranOhmsford
10-27-2011, 12:33 AM
Is there any way we can change the Alters?

Cannith crafting, Cove crafting, and a few others I think, all tell you what is required to craft certain things.
It really isn't a huge deal, but it would be nice to not have to pull out the crafting planner when I am going to make something different.
*I say different because I think most everyone knows the Min2 formula by heart:p*

Does anyone think that would be a good idea?


Opall

Considering the amount of people playing this game I'd be highly surprised if more then 1% of the population knew the min2 formula by heart.

I've just completed my first greensteel item - SP goggles of Haste {After 15 months of playing this game} and have no idea how to make any of the various specific items as yet.

Qhualor
10-27-2011, 12:51 AM
Am I reading this correctly?
I think I cried a little.

this is exactly what a lot of people have been wanting for a long time. now that gs will soon not be top dog in crafting, it makes sense to keep shroud attractive for everybody. soon, a lot more people will be running around with gs and lds prices will continue to fall making it easier and faster for people to craft gs. maybe now i wont be a robot doing norm shroud again and again and again and again and again... woohoo! my 50th and i finally pulled an lds! oh wait... thats a large horn /sigh

Qhualor
10-27-2011, 12:54 AM
Considering the amount of people playing this game I'd be highly surprised if more then 1% of the population knew the min2 formula by heart.

I've just completed my first greensteel item - SP goggles of Haste {After 15 months of playing this game} and have no idea how to make any of the various specific items as yet.

lol i still use the crafting planner after 2 years and ive made many of a green steel. you dont want to mess around when it comes to lds. its at least 6 months of farming for 5 of them hehe

sephiroth1084
10-27-2011, 01:33 AM
Is there any way we can change the Alters?

Cannith crafting, Cove crafting, and a few others I think, all tell you what is required to craft certain things.
It really isn't a huge deal, but it would be nice to not have to pull out the crafting planner when I am going to make something different.
*I say different because I think most everyone knows the Min2 formula by heart:p*

Does anyone think that would be a good idea?


Opall
While I do think it would be a good idea to change the Shroud alters to use the barter system UI, I'm not sure they can. I'm not very familiar with the new Cannith quests crafting, but for Shroud stuff, the decisions you make for tiers 1 and 2 affect the bonus you get on tier 2, and the decisions you make for tiers 1, 2 and 3 affect the bonus you get on tier 3, and for many items, you need two separate crafting sessions in order to get the bonus you want.

I think there are too many variables arranged in a rather odd way (in terms of how the barter UI works) for it to make that transition. I don't know how most people use their crafting planners, but I know that when I use the PerfectWeb planner, I tend to plug in the tier 3 bonus effect and work backward from there when I'm planning an item, and the alters can't work like that.

If you had to conform your crafting to a recipe I could see them simply listing items by their designations, like Mineral II, which you would choose at each alter and then it would ask you for the ingredients that would lead up to that, but we aren't so restricted. I, for instance, made a fully upgraded Tempered I item--I didn't feel the need to make it a dual shard on tier III; how can the barter UI handle those kinds of variables?

Glenalth
10-27-2011, 01:42 AM
While I do think it would be a good idea to change the Shroud alters to use the barter system UI, I'm not sure they can. I'm not very familiar with the new Cannith quests crafting, but for Shroud stuff, the decisions you make for tiers 1 and 2 affect the bonus you get on tier 2, and the decisions you make for tiers 1, 2 and 3 affect the bonus you get on tier 3, and for many items, you need two separate crafting sessions in order to get the bonus you want.

I think there are too many variables arranged in a rather odd way (in terms of how the barter UI works) for it to make that transition. I don't know how most people use their crafting planners, but I know that when I use the PerfectWeb planner, I tend to plug in the tier 3 bonus effect and work backward from there when I'm planning an item, and the alters can't work like that.

If you had to conform your crafting to a recipe I could see them simply listing items by their designations, like Mineral II, which you would choose at each alter and then it would ask you for the ingredients that would lead up to that, but we aren't so restricted. I, for instance, made a fully upgraded Tempered I item--I didn't feel the need to make it a dual shard on tier III; how can the barter UI handle those kinds of variables?

Probably by just having a barter vendor for the imbued shards. Then have the altar for combining the shard + weapon.

Valakai
10-27-2011, 01:56 AM
Was just going to come and whine that the new update did not have any new Prc etc. then saw this and felt really good about the update. This is puuuuuuur win.

MrkGrismer
10-27-2011, 09:16 AM
The barter system would be nice but it is far from important in my book, I would rather just have all the altars available outside of quests and high level guild ships so they could be visited anytime. I know it isn't a big deal to just go thru a shroud first once somebody has all the ingredients, but I don't really see the need for the altars to only be in the raid (and high level guild ships, and yes I know about the one in the Devil's Battlefield).

But I really do like the announced adds.

MrkGrismer
10-27-2011, 09:22 AM
You don't even need a proper group for dust, all you need is self-healing and you can solo it, assuming you can keep from killing spiders.

Yeah, therein lies the rub.

Darn spiders are suicidal. You don't need self-healing necessarily, you can bring a hireling (you just have to put it on the 'do nothing mode' when the don't kill spiders is up). But it is TONS easier with a character than has ranged instant-death (sor/wiz mostly). It can still be challenge sometimes even then.

I would much prefer if the don't kill spiders objective was optional and half the xp for the quest and two of the chests got moved to that objective. The instant fail when 5 jump on your sword can be really frustrating. With four in the final fight that means if you kill even so much as one by accident before the final fight it really boosts the difficulty of that final fight.

While I'm venting it would be nice to have a way to repair items in Rainbow in the Dark without having to use TP. ;) :D

somenewnoob
10-27-2011, 09:24 AM
lol i still use the crafting planner after 2 years and ive made many of a green steel. you dont want to mess around when it comes to lds. its at least 6 months of farming for 5 of them hehe

heh....I'm the same way. I use the planner and triple check every time I make a large ingredient. Heard too many horror stories about people messing up a 3rd tier. And that's a lot of plat/ingred/time down the drain if you mess up.

Noelemahc
10-27-2011, 10:10 AM
Awesome. So now we get more bones than ever before. Can you guys rebalance the recipes or put in that vendor in Meridia now? Otherwise this change seems like it just fills up your ingredient bags with more trash faster.

Avidus
10-27-2011, 10:20 AM
A barter UI for each altar would be really nice.

Especially since some newer players are often itimidated by all the options greensteel provides and by the ease of being able to mess it up and lose those ingredients.

A good start a barter UI would be with JJ's over at http://crafting.cubicleninja.com/

gloopygloop
10-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Awesome. So now we get more bones than ever before. Can you guys rebalance the recipes or put in that vendor in Meridia now? Otherwise this change seems like it just fills up your ingredient bags with more trash faster.

If we start seeing Large Scales drop occasionally in the end reward, that will make the balance quite a bit more even.

The need for different ingredients isn't enormously unbalanced. It's just that the imbalance accumulates as time goes on, so people have tons and tons of leftover not-scales by this point. Just having an end reward list where you can pick large scales occasionally and not pick any not-scale on that list will help.

stainer
10-27-2011, 10:52 AM
Is it possible that the "other" items mentioned are cleansers? That would be nice.

der_kluge
10-27-2011, 05:59 PM
Yea, I'm loving these elite incentives. My 3300+ favor FvS will finally be able to snag Shroud, HoX and VoD elites that have eluded me for so long.

Solmage
11-03-2011, 02:16 PM
So i m guessing the more is not blank ingredients (pebbles, funk). otherwise it would be listed.

I am a sad panda

PS: if it s not too late to change, please include those (please)

Please don't pollute the loot table with extremely easy to farm basic ingredients. Funk and Twigg are the only ones that require ever so slightly more time than the others.

In fact, while we're on topic, it'd be awesome if you removed the smalls and mediums which everyone should have 100s of by now, and if not, they will by the time they craft their first item since they drop twice as often. It would also give an additional incentive to complete instead of recall out after part 4 to those misguided souls.

kcru
11-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Uh...what? Do people really need "proper" groups for these? Do people really need vets for these? The quests haven't gotten any more difficult than they were originally, while our gear and abilities have gone waaaaaay up, even by level 16, and I feel like many people are running these now at level 17 rather than at 13, which was the norm when they first came out.
.

It's not about difficulty, it's about accessibility. The more people that run them, the easier it is to find groups to go in there. If you remove 80% of the population that runs them because they don't have to ever touch those quests again... I'm not sure how many new level 13-17s are doing these quests. Will the timing match up so that they can get run regularly? I'm personally doubtful, particularly concerning rainbow and coalesence chamber.

elraido
11-03-2011, 02:35 PM
It's not about difficulty, it's about accessibility. The more people that run them, the easier it is to find groups to go in there. If you remove 80% of the population that runs them because they don't have to ever touch those quests again... I'm not sure how many new level 13-17s are doing these quests. Will the timing match up so that they can get run regularly? I'm personally doubtful, particularly concerning rainbow and coalesence chamber.

A ton of 13-17's are running those quests. They are extreamly good xp for leveling a TR.

MrkGrismer
11-03-2011, 02:41 PM
It's not about difficulty, it's about accessibility. The more people that run them, the easier it is to find groups to go in there. If you remove 80% of the population that runs them because they don't have to ever touch those quests again... I'm not sure how many new level 13-17s are doing these quests. Will the timing match up so that they can get run regularly? I'm personally doubtful, particularly concerning rainbow and coalesence chamber.

If people dread running the quests so much that having the ingredients drop elsewhere would stop people from running the quests, doesn't that mean that maybe there is something wrong with the quests?

somenewnoob
11-03-2011, 02:44 PM
If people dread running the quests so much that having the ingredients drop elsewhere would stop people from running the quests, doesn't that mean that maybe there is something wrong with the quests?

I like those quests,other than Coal, which is a little bit long...... Just not having to run them over and over and over for ingredients!

kcru
11-03-2011, 02:47 PM
If people dread running the quests so much that having the ingredients drop elsewhere would stop people from running the quests, doesn't that mean that maybe there is something wrong with the quests?

That it's not as easy as not running the quests? It's not "Dropping elsewhere", it's "dropping as a side effect of doing what you're doing anyway."


If you could get Large Devil Scales when you Repair your gear... kinda takes the incentive out of running shroud doesn't it? Might as well run ToD and get the scales when you repair later.

azrael4h
11-03-2011, 02:49 PM
Seriously Harry going on a diet takes his hp away? - guess he forgot to exercise while he was at it.
It was a binge and purge diet.

I don't know how I missed this. Maybe this will make it harder for me to run in one ****ing ingredient short of completing a tier 3 item. Again.

WruntJunior
11-03-2011, 02:50 PM
The only bad quest out in vale is dust on any difficulty (as a melee at least, suicidal spiders) and devils on elite (ever tried it at level without a healer or caster? interesting in the very painful way). Anything else out there can be soloed at level, not counting what you can do these quests at level 20....especially considering elite doesn't even drop more ingredients (which should be fixed).

somenewnoob
11-03-2011, 02:52 PM
The only bad quest out in vale is dust on any difficulty (suicidal spiders) and devils on elite (ever tried it at level without a healer or caster? interesting in the very painful way). Anything else out there can be soloed at level, not counting what you can do these quests at level 20....especially considering elite doesn't even drop more ingredients (which should be fixed).

Yeah I think the devs are sniffing around the right area with elite ingredient rewards being more than norm ingred rewards.......now they just need to apply that to the flagging/blank ingred quests as well.

PNellesen
11-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Anything else out there can be soloed at level, not counting what you can do these quests at level 20....

I wonder how the change to FoM is going to affect Rainbow in the Dark now? Might not be quite as soloable as it was...

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 04:05 PM
I wonder how the change to FoM is going to affect Rainbow in the Dark now? Might not be quite as soloable as it was...

As long as you wake up the earth elementals only one or two at a time, it's not so bad.

I've gone in on fleshy types without FoM often enough. The rust monsters are the really scary enemies in there.

NexEverto
11-03-2011, 07:30 PM
The rust monsters are the really scary enemies in there.

Speak for yourself, the scariest thing in there for me is the dark itself! :D

Seriously though, glad to see this change has been brought in.

How about next we have THIS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=348209) looked at and added to the game? :D

(Please ignore my shameless plug!)

WruntJunior
11-03-2011, 07:47 PM
As long as you wake up the earth elementals only one or two at a time, it's not so bad.

I've gone in on fleshy types without FoM often enough. The rust monsters are the really scary enemies in there.

I have no fom on my current life, and still have no problem soloing Rainbow. Earth eles in vale don't take that high of a reflex save.

gloopygloop
11-03-2011, 08:05 PM
Speak for yourself, the scariest thing in there for me is the dark itself! :D

Seriously though, glad to see this change has been brought in.

How about next we have THIS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=348209) looked at and added to the game? :D

(Please ignore my shameless plug!)

I have a wand of magic missle, so I'm not afraid of the darkness. I can just attack it.

Veriden
11-03-2011, 10:53 PM
The 20th completion lists should remain unchanged. That change affects the 1-19th completions (and subsequent non-20ths).

please remove +2 tomes from the 20th completion list, I got my 60th completion on a toon today and not a single +3 tome b/c the list was filled with +2s (including doubles of wisdom)

Havok.cry
11-04-2011, 02:31 AM
I'd like to see them do for shroud ingredients what they did for epic scrolls.

sirgog
11-04-2011, 03:10 AM
While I do think it would be a good idea to change the Shroud alters to use the barter system UI, I'm not sure they can. I'm not very familiar with the new Cannith quests crafting, but for Shroud stuff, the decisions you make for tiers 1 and 2 affect the bonus you get on tier 2, and the decisions you make for tiers 1, 2 and 3 affect the bonus you get on tier 3, and for many items, you need two separate crafting sessions in order to get the bonus you want.

I think there are too many variables arranged in a rather odd way (in terms of how the barter UI works) for it to make that transition. I don't know how most people use their crafting planners, but I know that when I use the PerfectWeb planner, I tend to plug in the tier 3 bonus effect and work backward from there when I'm planning an item, and the alters can't work like that.

If you had to conform your crafting to a recipe I could see them simply listing items by their designations, like Mineral II, which you would choose at each alter and then it would ask you for the ingredients that would lead up to that, but we aren't so restricted. I, for instance, made a fully upgraded Tempered I item--I didn't feel the need to make it a dual shard on tier III; how can the barter UI handle those kinds of variables?

It could be done but would probably be a lot of work. The barter box for tier 2 would be dozens of pages long until you put a t1 item in it.

Remember - Shroud items add a little marker - 'Aspect of Positive Energy' - that does nothing on its own.

If you had one altar for weapons only, and another for accessories only, and a third for creating shards, it would look like this:

Shard creation altar, tier 1:
- Has recipes like 'Arrow + Bone + Scale + Stone + Power Cell = Positive' - 11 recipes total
- Has recipes like 'Shard of Power + Fire + Material + Opposition + Power Cell = Material Fire Opposition Shard'. This is 36 total recipes (6 elements, multiplied by 3 gems, multiplied by 2 essences, so 36 types of shards).

Tier 1 weapons:
- 36 recipes, including things like 'Material Fire Opposition Weapon: Weapon + Material Fire Opposition Shard + Power Cell - Adds Fire Absorb 10% and Fire Affinity to a weapon'

Tier 2 weapons:
- 216 recipes
- Things like 'Radiance: Material Positive Opposition - Weapon with Fire Affinity, removes fire affinity, adds Healing Amp 20, adds Aspect of Radiance 1, adds Sunburst clickie'. 36 shards, times 6 tier 1 affinities is 216 recipes.
- Once you put in a tier 1 upgraded weapon, 36 recipes would remain

Tier 3 weapons:
- There's 21 possible tier 2 Affinities (15 with different elements at tier 1 and 2, and 6 with the same)
- For each of those except Negative, you'd have 42 recipes. (Negative has 36).
- Six would be like 'Radiance: Material Radiance Dominion - Requires (and removes) Aspect of Radiance 1, adds Flaming Blast, adds Aspect of Radiance 2'
- 36 others would be the 'wrong' tier 3 shards. For dual-shards, that's just all the standard 36 shards. For single shards, it's the 30 shards with different elements, and then stupidly inefficient recipes that give you (say) Flaming, Flaming Burst, Flaming Blast and no synergy bonus by putting a wrong dualshard (such as Material Radiance Dominion) on the top tier. Negative doesn't dominate anything, so there is no way to make a 'triple negative no synergy bonus' item.
- That's 863 recipes. 60-odd pages if it's 15 recipes per page.
- It could be a lot less if you force people to make only 'correct' items at tier 3.


So it would be POSSIBLE to make Shroud work as a barter system.

aerendhil
11-04-2011, 03:33 AM
If it ain't broken, don't fix it ! ^o^

wax_on_wax_off
11-04-2011, 03:52 AM
With the changes to drop rates on tomes will it be possible to pull +3 tomes in elite shroud?

curboUS
11-04-2011, 07:15 AM
If it ain't broken, don't fix it ! ^o^

There is nothing that can be 'broken' Aerendhil, if not for the player designed compilations on shroud-crafting we would craft blind.

How often have you helped a first-timer with shroud-crafting ? And how would you have been able help him/her without the links to shroud-crafting pages put up by players ?

So it it a needed addition to the game and it should have been added yesterday (tbh a lot of yesterdays ago).

somenewnoob
11-04-2011, 07:27 AM
As long as you wake up the earth elementals only one or two at a time, it's not so bad.

I've gone in on fleshy types without FoM often enough. The rust monsters are the really scary enemies in there.

Yeah I just ran through that a half dozen times with no fom for ingreds last weekend. The eles are no big deal....the rusties.....a freaking horror!

Truga
11-04-2011, 07:39 AM
I wonder how the change to FoM is going to affect Rainbow in the Dark now? Might not be quite as soloable as it was...

What change to FoM? Also, we are talking about freedom of movement right?

voodoogroves
11-04-2011, 07:43 AM
What change to FoM? Also, we are talking about freedom of movement right?

It won't stop earthgrab any more.

Truga
11-04-2011, 07:49 AM
It won't stop earthgrab any more.

Oh okay, I don't have a problem with that. I only fail save on 1 on those :V

Orange-Silk
11-04-2011, 07:53 AM
The devs aren't that nice... has anyone checked if they stealthily changed the recipes on us? :P

Zildoran
11-04-2011, 09:11 PM
The sad thing for me is that I have pulled some great random generated weapons from Shroud end rewards. +2 Holy Handwraps of Stunning+10 and Holy Rapier of Disruption just to name a couple.