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Shade
10-25-2011, 09:32 AM
It seems silly to have 8+ posts for whats essentially just 4 quests (of which only 2 are available) so I'm starting this to discuss the epic challenges.

And please keep it on topic (EG actaully run them and talk about your experience), the official ones are already derailed enough by dozens of players who never set foot into them.

Overall: Not much about these feels "Epic". They have none of the stats or mechanics we've come to expect from actual Epic quests.

Rushmoor - Picture Portals:
Challenge to win: 2/10 - Kill 1 trivial boss? mm not epic.
Challenge to 5 star: 5/10 - Given the scaling present and crest design, casters will be 5 star soloing this day one. 6 man groups will struggle. Very backwards design.
Loot: 2/10. Essentially has no loot cept the ingredients. The epic items are nice so it gets 1 point, but should have real loot. Well it has those gold piles i guess, wee 600 gold.
XP: 0/10 - XP is a terrible. (and even tho its called epic, non 20s are allowed in from what I can tell)

Overall Fun: 7/10..
Though it's lacking in many areas, it's still quite fun overall. I really like the random little buffs and the kobold. A few tweaks and it will be a great quest.

Suggestions:
-Set the difficulty mode to epic.. It's currently set to normal.
-Add loot. An epic chest for 5 staring with a token, and time to loot it would be a nice reward for 5 stars. Maybe even a small chance at +3 tomes in there couldnt hurt.
- Monsters, Hitpoints are reasonable. But damage output is nearly nothing, not epic.. Up monster damage output at least 50%.
- Dungeon alert: Please scale it back a bit so full groups arent so heavily penalized for spliting up a bit.

Rushmoor - Moving Targets:
Eh much the same as picture portals. Still fun, and not much to add other then I miss the kobold.

Kobold Island - Short cuts:
Challenge to win: 3/10
Challenge to 5 star: 8/10 - Gona be extremely hard, and end up as purely caster-only party if they do manage it. Well maybe melee could do the boring job of clicking the portals a gillion times (silly objective)
Loot: 2/10. Essentially has no loot cept the ingredients. The epic items are nice so it gets 1 point, but should have real loot. Well it has those gold piles i guess, wee 600 gold.
Fun: 4/10

Feedback:
The monsters here seemed ultra easy. ~500 hp devils? .. Think you forgot to make it actually epic.
The crystals died rather fast, but not faster then a caser could reconstruct them.. So yea casters make it trivial, and extremely hard to do much as a melee. (Well rogues can scroll reconstruct at least)
50,000 hp succubus: ermm.. One second im fightinga 500 hp tiefling, then a 300 hp kobold, then a 50,000 hp succubus? Seems a bit out of place. Also please make them oranged named, theres no need for them to be red named as they get deathblock anyways.

Suggestions:
-Up tiefling/devil hitpoints, damage output, acorss the board.
-Severely reduce succubus hp, change to oranged named.
-Remove very annoying: Deplete portals objective. All it does is essentially give 2 players in the party a very boring 10 minute task of clicking portals. Change it to "destroy portals" please.


Disruptor:
Challenge to win: 3/10 - Very easy to win and get the loot. Would take 1 run for 6 players to have a guarenteed item.
Challenge to 5 star: 9/10 - Due to the design of this it will be extremely hard.. Leave as is =)
Loot:2/10 - Essenitally has no loot. Ingredients yea, but the fun of loot is getting something non guarenteed, or working towards a goal, neither are present here, its 1 run and guarenteed to have what you want.
XP: 0/10 - XP is a terrible. (and even tho its called epic, non 20s are allowed in from what I can tell)

Overall Fun 3/10:

Feedback: Least favourite of the lot. The red named undead with 50-70,000 HP in a full grp are a bit annoying. Just ends up becoming a 6man - caster-only affair, as they take too long to melee, and caster can simply firewall kite them while healing the crystals indefinetely.

Essentially its crystal cove 2.0. LFMs will look much the same: Casters only.

Overall ideas to improve:
1. Enable epic difficulty.

2. Reward Epic ingredients not mainly based on score. But mainly based on star objectives. Score seems rather arbitrary and goes to extreme figures.. While star objectives are generally fairly challenging.

EG:
1 star = 40 ingredients
2 star = 80 ingr
3 star = 90 ingr
4 star = 100 ingr
5 star = 200 ingredients

Maybe scores over certain threshholds could rewrd small amoutns of bonus ingredinets tho:
EG:
Rushmoor, 1000+ points = +10 ingredients
Island: 3000+ points = +10 ingredients

So 3 very good runs and youd have your epic item tier2. Seems fair. (still easier then most epics to acquire, but not too bad)
As it is now: 1 run and you'll can get 3000+ ingredients and have your tier3, or two of em: umm no..

MadFloyd
10-25-2011, 09:40 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Shade, and double thanks for making it very constructive.

I was hoping you would chime in on this. :)

Shade
10-25-2011, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Shade, and double thanks for making it very constructive.

I was hoping you would chime in on this. :)

Yea np Madfloyd.

Sorry for being slightly non constructive last night, was kinda drunk and perturbed by players who never ran these posting so much.

Shade
10-25-2011, 10:00 AM
Some screenshots and bug reports:

Whats worse then a 75,000 hp red named wheep with 23 DR i cant break?
Two of them. Argh. (http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/8493/2wheeps.jpg) Not sure why there was 2, usually there is only 1, and sometimes a shadow.
We failed disruptor pretty badly so no score.. Coulda won but most players were not prepared.

Short cuts score (http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4008/buggedcompletion.jpg)
Bug:
Says we killed no kobolds.. Heh yea I murdered dozens of kobolds, sorry kobolds but we really needed the parts.

Picture portals score - completed easily enough, 2 stars and close to getting the last few.
631 goblets, enough to Tier2 an epic, in 1 run. (http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7042/picturecomplete.jpg)

Bug report for kookie: (http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4140/bugreports.jpg)

I completed behind the door, 5 stars, solo - on maximum CR (15 in this case). Rls notes siad I should get bonus favor and xp and stars turn gold, they did not.

In addition it says I 5 stared picture portals now, which i did the other day, but doesn't show 5 stars on behind the door.
Seems to have some bugs in updating the challenges panel accurately. Think it works after a relog or something, tho stars never turned gold.

Zeruell
10-25-2011, 10:05 AM
Whats worse then a 75,000 hp red named wheep with 23 DR i cant break?

Well, you could (http://ddowiki.com/page/Rahl's%20Might), but it almost certainly wouldn't be worthwhile for your character...

Is it time to revisit the suggestion of a THF piercing weapon, again?

BruceTheHoon
10-25-2011, 10:47 AM
Essentially its crystal cove 2.0. LFMs will look much the same: Casters only.

That's what I was afraid of as soon as I've heard "split up". All my capped characters are melee and the recent crystal cove event really left a bitter taste in my mouth.

I haven't played these quests yet, so I can't comment on them. I'm just expressing my concerns that have arisen while reading all the feedback on these forums.

gloopygloop
10-25-2011, 12:14 PM
Well, you could (http://ddowiki.com/page/Rahl's%20Might), but it almost certainly wouldn't be worthwhile for your character...

Is it time to revisit the suggestion of a THF piercing weapon, again?

I'm sure that we wouldn't mind seeing spears added to the game.

Alundaar
10-25-2011, 12:32 PM
I've played them on my monk, my artie, will try later with wf wiz and helf sorc

monk:
I like the fact that ac is relevant means i can split up i still get hit and the red names hit 19/20 time if not 20/20

as without a party i'm limited to about 74 ac

was not able to complete any of them solo killed a few things got close but not complete

on the island i was able to get about 150 - 200 before time ran out/ skele killed me

manor got to the courtyard before finally running out of steam

artie:

bout the same result a lil further in the mansion only because major pots are candy and i have a sweet tooth and quicken but not completed

Thrudh
10-25-2011, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Shade, and double thanks for making it very constructive.

I was hoping you would chime in on this. :)

Although Shade can make solid constructive posts at times, please remember that his viewpoint can be an outlier... Be careful when designing anything around his recommendations.

When an extreme powergamer says something is too easy, take it with a grain of a salt. It's SUPPOSED to be easy for someone who has grinded out every good item in the game.

Fetchi
10-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Although Shade can make solid constructive posts at times, please remember that his viewpoint can be an outlier... Be careful when designing anything around his recommendations.

When an extreme powergamer says something is too easy, take it with a grain of a salt. It's SUPPOSED to be easy for someone who has grinded out every good item in the game.

Thank you for saying what we are all thinking.

Primalhowl
10-25-2011, 01:22 PM
Although Shade can make solid constructive posts at times, please remember that his viewpoint can be an outlier... Be careful when designing anything around his recommendations.

When an extreme powergamer says something is too easy, take it with a grain of a salt. It's SUPPOSED to be easy for someone who has grinded out every good item in the game.

Normally I would agree with you. However, in this case, I think Shade is right on about the *EPIC* version of these challenges. Furthermore, many of his points are comparative with finite references, making them much more useful than the multitude of "it seems easy" or "its too hard" type of posts that pop up.

As a semi-casual player who has just started trying out epics, I have no issue with any of the changes Shade proposes. It just seems to me like they will improve the gameplay.

Shade
10-25-2011, 01:39 PM
Thank you for saying what we are all thinking.
All are thinking eh, a powerful mind reader..

I'm thinking if you want to give feedback, you should probably run the challenges and do so.

The devs can only go on the feedback they get. If you give them none from your point of view, you have no one to blame.

MadFloyd
10-25-2011, 01:43 PM
Note that there are 5 levels of Epic. In a perfect world, every level 20 char can find a level that provides the right amount of challenge.

Which begs the question: what level(s) did you run at? Party size?

gloopygloop
10-25-2011, 01:49 PM
All are thinking eh, a powerful mind reader..

I'm thinking if you want to give feedback, you should probably run the challenges and do so.

The devs can only go on the feedback they get. If you give them none from your point of view, you have no one to blame.

You said that the epic challenges were easy to complete, but will be very difficult to 5 star.

Isn't that kind of the whole point of the challenges?

I like the idea of challengs being very easy to complete while being difficult to 5 star. That sounds like the right balance to me and that matches your original post pretty well for two out of the three quests and it still matches your description of the first quest for groups. That sounds like an appropriate balance to me.

Shade
10-25-2011, 01:56 PM
You said that the epic challenges were easy to complete, but will be very difficult to 5 star.

No I didn't.

I said Rushmoors would be easy to 5 star for solo caster, moderate for groups.

And Islands would be tough to 5 stars.

Being the main bonus stars give is XP and favor.. No I dont really feel that should be the main challenge of epic.

The main chalenge of epic should be the goal that gets you closer to getting the best tier3 epic weapons, and currently thats ignoring the stars.

The stars are a fun challenge, but unbalanced in difficulty between the challenges as I stated.

stainer
10-25-2011, 02:05 PM
No I didn't.

I said Rushmoors would be easy to 5 star for solo caster, moderate for groups.

And Islands would be tough to 5 stars.

Being the main bonus stars give is XP and favor.. No I dont really feel that should be the main challenge of epic.

The main chalenge of epic should be the goal that gets you closer to getting the best tier3 epic weapons, and currently thats ignoring the stars.

The stars are a fun challenge, but unbalanced in difficulty between the challenges as I stated.

Are the purpose of the challenges a way for casual players to get epic items, like Cove and Mabar? Neither one of these are difficult, even with poorly equipped characters, just time consuming. I see them as a way for a more casual player to get epic items. The epic items aren't overly powerful either, except for the Ratkiller Maul. That is way OP, but I digress.

So what is the purpose, or goal of the challenge quests?

Shade
10-25-2011, 02:10 PM
Note that there are 5 levels of Epic. In a perfect world, every level 20 char can find a level that provides the right amount of challenge.

Which begs the question: what level(s) did you run at? Party size?

I tried both 21 and 25 of each. I noticed no major differences other then a bit more hp, which can slow down mansion, but in kobold island simply results in players kiting the monster and repairing the crystals.

Party size massively influences the hitpoints and damage output, and as I mentioned, I'm not a fan of that, it greatly deters teamplay, and Epics should be about teamplay.

Imo if it was perfect:

Fresh 20s wouldn't run epic. There are 21-25 non epic for a reason aren't there?
They'd run the 20-25 non epic (most likely 20).. And after gaining some more experience/gear in the game, theyd move onto Epic 21.

And infact everyone has to run the lvl20 non epics anyways if they want the loot, How its set up requires you to run non-epic to get the so called "epic" base items, which you can upgrade.

Then they'd later run 21 epic, and get tier2.

22-24? I get the idea, but they seem rather arbitrary. They dont reward anything more, they don't offer the greatest challenge.. I'd be willing to bet that if you logged what was run, the vast majority of it would be 21, a small amount would be 25, and next to zero would try anything in between. Arbitrary number changes dont interest players. Being the best and beating the hardest levels for some bragging rights, sure we might do that..
But you could just delete 22-24 and no one would notice.

25:
Why not have this one as required to get the tier3s? They don't add much at all, generally just slots.. So if it was set to the next tier, most players wouldn't be left out, they'd stil hae t1/2, and those who want a challenge would have a real incentive to try it.

Perhaps epic 25 could drop "epic challenge tokens" and say 5 would be required to craft the tier3s (like how Tier3 Alchemicals are set up with requiring 5 tokens)

Dunno why you like using arbitrary numbers anyways.
There are 5 difficulty lvls, why not just do:
Epic:
replace 21 with casual, and so on:
22 - normal
23 - hard
24 - elite
25 - nightmare

And apply the same difficulty template you do to quests, to those modes (in regardes to shrines resetting, grazing hits, trap scaling, etc). 25 being Epic - Epic, plus even more restricitons, like say limits on SP potions

It's Simpler, makes more sense and is far easier for the players to understand then throwing some numbers at them. Players know what "normal" or "elite" means, they dont know what 22 or 24 means.

I mean players who think there good at the game don't think "Well im epic - but not that epic, im a 4 out of 5, so ill do 24" or I'm epic, but im a 2 out of 5, so ill pick 22.. Everyone wants to think there a great player, or a decent player. Theres not many in between that are gona say well im in between.. Much less enough to fill groups for specific levels. Saying "Well im an epic - elite player, is a lot easier to swallow then saying " im 1/2/3 worse then the players who can handle 25"

Fetchi
10-25-2011, 03:29 PM
All are thinking eh, a powerful mind reader..

I'm thinking if you want to give feedback, you should probably run the challenges and do so.

The devs can only go on the feedback they get. If you give them none from your point of view, you have no one to blame.

Heh. Agreeing with another poster telling the devs to be careful when designing content around power gamers who have way too much time on their hands is in fact providing feedback.

I don't have to run any content to know and understand that this is a bad idea.

stainer
10-25-2011, 03:35 PM
Heh. Agreeing with another poster telling the devs to be careful when designing content around power gamers who have way too much time on their hands is in fact providing feedback.

I don't have to run any content to know and understand that this is a bad idea.

I agree. I would hate to think the game is being designed around the high end 2%. That doesn't sound like a good business model and could impact the bottom line for Turbine. I would focus on the larger mass of people. That is where the money is. Unfortunately they aren't giving feedback, or if they are, it is being ignored.

I would be sad if the top 2% left because the game wasn't challenging for them. I would be sadder if 80% left because the game was to challenging and time consuming. There has to be a balance somewhere. I think the devs are looking for it, but are having a hard time finding it. Hopefully this gets all sorted out.

MrkGrismer
10-25-2011, 03:41 PM
Maybe the challenge isn't in getting the tier3, the challenge is in putting something in the slot.

maddmatt70
10-25-2011, 05:17 PM
Its funny how much you guys lay waste to Shade. I like that the devs try to make content for all players. I think there is a disconnect with the fact that fresh off the boat level 20s want to and can join level 20 epic raids. They should not be able to click and join that at all.

This challenge system has similar pitfalls it is obvious because it is unclear what 21-25 means. What does that mean to anybody in the current game? I like all players would have to try a level 21 and a level 25 challenge quest before I could even tell the difference. Is there some way that the devs can give us a heads up on how difficult a level 25 challenge quest is? Will it be like running epic bargain of blood, epic devils assault, epic von 1, epic dq1? What is the difficulty scale? What does it mean?

MadFloyd
10-25-2011, 05:25 PM
Its funny how much you guys lay waste to Shade. I like that the devs try to make content for all players. I think there is a disconnect with the fact that fresh off the boat level 20s want to and can join level 20 epic raids. They should not be able to click and join that at all.

This challenge system has similar pitfalls it is obvious because it is unclear what 21-25 means. What does that mean to anybody in the current game? I like all players would have to try a level 21 and a level 25 challenge quest before I could even tell the difference. Is there some way that the devs can give us a heads up on how difficult a level 25 challenge quest is? Will it be like running epic bargain of blood, epic devils assault, epic von 1, epic dq1? What is the difficulty scale? What does it mean?

Roughly:

21-Hard
22-Elite
23-Elite
24-Epic
25-Epic

Bladedge
10-25-2011, 05:43 PM
Roughly:

21-Hard
22-Elite
23-Elite
24-Epic
25-Epic

How does lv 22-Elite different from 23-Elite?
How does lv 24-Elite different from 25-Elite?
How should someone like me who never ran the challenges determine what my group and I are able to run that is a challenge but within our ability without having to run both 22-23/24-25, asking on the forums or looking it up. More HP? more resistances? more loot? less time?. Why should I pick on over the other? Saying 22-23 both elite / 24-25 both epic does not help. Might as well cut out 23 and 24 and rename lv 25 to 23 make it the highest.

LeLoric
10-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Roughly:

21-Hard
22-Elite
23-Elite
24-Epic
25-Epic

Actually making any sort of naming reference to regular quest settings for these is pretty bad unless you actually make them like those settings. Saying something is roughly epic but has drastically different mechanics like instadeath immunity, 80's ac being viable, dungeon scaling applying, reentry etc doesn't meet the standard players have for this current naming convention. If you want it to remain with the current mechanics then you need to keep the naming convention seperate.

Calling these challenges epic when they have no resemblance to the epic that players are used to creates some expectations that will fail to be met and create upset customers.

MadFloyd
10-25-2011, 05:54 PM
How does lv 22-Elite different from 23-Elite?
How does lv 24-Elite different from 25-Elite?
How should someone like me who never ran the challenges determine what my group and I are able to run that is a challenge but within our ability without having to run both 22-23/24-25, asking on the forums or looking it up. More HP? more resistances? more loot? less time?. Why should I pick on over the other? Saying 22-23 both elite / 24-25 both epic does not help. Might as well cut out 23 and 24 and rename lv 25 to 23 make it the highest.

There's just more granularity in the difficulty levels, nothing more. How much more difficult is Hard compared to Normal, or Elite compared to Hard? Certainly not just one level.

These level choices affect monster statting and amount of loot, not time.

Bladedge
10-25-2011, 06:08 PM
There's just more granularity in the difficulty levels, nothing more. How much more difficult is Hard compared to Normal, or Elite compared to Hard? Certainly not just one level.

These level choices affect monster statting and amount of loot, not time.

Iam going by what I read (I like saving quests for live servers) but from what I read there is not much difference in monster stats and amount of loot from 21 -25 and from what I experience from CC 21-24 were not often run its was mainly lv 20 or 25.

This is difficulty naming convention (Diablo Style) you know off the bat what you getting into
21-Epic
22-Nightmare
23-Epic Nightmare
24-Hell
25-Inferno

Jahmin
10-25-2011, 07:10 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Shade, and double thanks for making it very constructive.

I was hoping you would chime in on this. :)

Frankly anyone that thinks a lvl14 raid should be challenging for lvl20 characters should have their ‘opinion’ summarily discarded.

Jahmin
10-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Everyone wants to think there a great player

Indeed they apparently do… :rolleyes:

sirgog
10-25-2011, 08:46 PM
Roughly:

21-Hard
22-Elite
23-Elite
24-Epic
25-Epic

In my experience (having made solo attempts at 23s and 25s and group attempts at 21s), the present tuning feels more like

21 - Normal
23 - Normal but mobs have high HP
25 - Hard

That's mainly because of the extreme levels of dungeon scaling. When I'm soloing the first 2/3s of Small Problem epic, every hit I take is ~70 damage (wolves), ~50 (spiders), ~90 (earth eles) or ~200 (DBF). In 25 challenges solo, mobs are hitting for 1/3 of those amounts.

Shade
10-25-2011, 10:14 PM
Frankly anyone that thinks a lvl14 raid should be challenging for lvl20 characters should have their ‘opinion’ summarily discarded.

Anyone who judges others and entirely dismisses based on 1 small (and untrue/rather inaccurate) opinion should really re-consider how they judge others.

Either way tho, I appreciate the support and dedication my followers have shown.

gloopygloop
10-25-2011, 10:16 PM
Anyone who judges others and entirely dismisses based on 1 small (and untrue/rather inaccurate) opinion should really re-consider how they judge others.

Either way tho, I appreciate the support and dedication my followers have shown.

I'd rather have a thoughtful discussion where people share their insights and analysis than the "Shade and his followers" show. If people want to support your opinion because it happens to match theirs, that's cool.

Thanking your followers for their support and dedication is just plain creepy, though.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 01:24 AM
There's just more granularity in the difficulty levels, nothing more. How much more difficult is Hard compared to Normal, or Elite compared to Hard? Certainly not just one level.

If you're talking about normal questing...Hard tends to be a little more difficult than Normal, while Elite tends to be considerably more difficult than Hard, such that I'd look at many quests as follows:

Normal = quest level
Hard = quest level +1 or +1.5 depending on the individual quest
Elite = quest level +2 to +4 depending on the individual quest, but most often is at +3



As for looking at Axer's comments and suggestions...I haven't run the challenges myself, but that looks like about the most fair and balanced (and generally accessible) critiquing Axer has ever done. That is to say that I can imagine agreeing with him on most, if not all points after running the challenges myself. Now, yes, I'm speaking from a position of inexperience with the subject matter in question, but he's not making unqualified statements...600 HP mobs are too weak for what I would expect of a lvl 25 quest. 50,000 HP sub-bosses are a bit excessive. Etc...

Oh, and +1, Axer.

I will also agree that stuff like challenge quests and events that are of epic caliber (ie lvl 25 Crystal Cove), need to have an epic chest at the end with, at the very least, token fragments and some high-level vendor trash to sell. Turning out tons of epic gear is all well and good, but then requiring players to run another 200 other epic quests just to slot them makes for a rather ridiculous and unnecessary grind.

MadFloyd
10-26-2011, 09:12 AM
If you're talking about normal questing...Hard tends to be a little more difficult than Normal, while Elite tends to be considerably more difficult than Hard, such that I'd look at many quests as follows:

Normal = quest level
Hard = quest level +1 or +1.5 depending on the individual quest
Elite = quest level +2 to +4 depending on the individual quest, but most often is at +3



As for looking at Axer's comments and suggestions...I haven't run the challenges myself, but that looks like about the most fair and balanced (and generally accessible) critiquing Axer has ever done. That is to say that I can imagine agreeing with him on most, if not all points after running the challenges myself. Now, yes, I'm speaking from a position of inexperience with the subject matter in question, but he's not making unqualified statements...600 HP mobs are too weak for what I would expect of a lvl 25 quest. 50,000 HP sub-bosses are a bit excessive. Etc...

Oh, and +1, Axer.

I will also agree that stuff like challenge quests and events that are of epic caliber (ie lvl 25 Crystal Cove), need to have an epic chest at the end with, at the very least, token fragments and some high-level vendor trash to sell. Turning out tons of epic gear is all well and good, but then requiring players to run another 200 other epic quests just to slot them makes for a rather ridiculous and unnecessary grind.

I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?

GoldyGopher
10-26-2011, 09:14 AM
I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?

Axer = Shade

MrkGrismer
10-26-2011, 09:14 AM
I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?

Axer = Shade, look at his sig:


Characters (Khyber): Axer, Greataxer, Metalaxer, Dualaxer, Obliterator, Sworder

(edit: ninja'd!)

Cyr
10-26-2011, 09:15 AM
What do you get for running level 24 as opposed to level 21? Is it just a small bump in the ingredients/xp?

I know level 25 supposedly nets you higher favor (which is a one time incentive per toon), but does it grant anything that actually would encourage replay over the level 21 instance?

TazMan098
10-26-2011, 09:15 AM
I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?

Axer is one of Shade's toons.

Cam_Neely
10-26-2011, 09:18 AM
I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?

Axer=Shades Barb i think

Well, i was a bit slow:)

while not completely on topic, I do believe that a group where more then 50% of the players are fresh 20s should have close to no chance to complete an Epic.

sephiroth1084
10-26-2011, 10:11 AM
I don't see a post from Axer here, was it in a different thread?
Sorry about that, MF. I can't think of Axer as Shade...his, uh, personality in-game bellies that of his presence on the forums. Shade's toons are Axer, Greataxer, Dualaxer (and I think there are a couple of others with the same scheme).

Anyway, I hope my other points weren't lost due to that bit of confusion. :)

AMDarkwolf
10-26-2011, 12:04 PM
I just don't know about something that is labeled 'casual epic'

its like saying 'that white wall is black'


and...


Frankly anyone that thinks a lvl14 raid should be challenging for lvl20 characters should have their ‘opinion’ summarily discarded.

^this


I'd rather have a thoughtful discussion where people share their insights and analysis than the "Shade and his followers" show. If people want to support your opinion because it happens to match theirs, that's cool.

Thanking your followers for their support and dedication is just plain creepy, though.

^ and this


I do consider myself a 'good' player, my one 'real' toon (Retired monk due to it just not being 'fun') is WELL decked out in epic gear, and one thing I REALLY do not want (Please excuse me for saying) is quests where to 'get' anywhere I am finding myself stressed out, and when making parties, am 'forced' to screen each person who joins. I want to have fun, I DO want challenge, but I do not want the challenge to equal '15 mana pots for each healer, 2+ hrs in the raid' nor does challenge mean (PLEASE pay attention devs, PLEASE) soloable easily by casters/divines, but difficulty scales up exponentially with each melee who joins'


In response to the challenge thing, being that I haven't tried it, I can only hope that what a past poster said, isn't the fact of the matter, where its only 'filler' with sweet candy at the end to 'force' us to re-do the same content 15000 times. The bravery bonus you added went a LONG way in removing the repetition the game was before, I am not sure if I am the minority here, but repeating the same quest more than once in a row, will make me search up another game to play for a bit. Sure I grind those games for a bit, but hey, its new, different, and a change. (As some might know, I've 'quit' ddo for now until I see whats coming.)

last note, dev's I think many people are sick of the 'events', but having this added as a perma-event might be a good thing, just please consider that you could use more quests in the level 15(ish) range. A lot more. There is a dead-zone at around lv 17 due to lack of quests at that level.

Chai
10-26-2011, 12:18 PM
What do you get for running level 24 as opposed to level 21? Is it just a small bump in the ingredients/xp?

I know level 25 supposedly nets you higher favor (which is a one time incentive per toon), but does it grant anything that actually would encourage replay over the level 21 instance?

I have been wondering this as well, as scaling rewards based on difficulty has been something I have harped on for a while now.

Tap4black
10-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Party size?

I'd lay odds he ran these quests with his typical party makeup of his Barbarian, 1 Arcane, 1 Bard and 3 Divines to heal him....

k1ngp1n
10-26-2011, 02:35 PM
Either way tho, I appreciate the support and dedication my followers have shown.

Ooh ooh, can I become a follower?

I require promises of deliverance and lots of kool-aid.

TiberiusofTyr
10-26-2011, 07:44 PM
i require promises of deliverance

Do Not Want!

Akianna
10-27-2011, 06:16 AM
I have played a number of these new *quests* on on *epic* with my capped monk and found them fairly easy, yet enjoyable. Shade, for the most part you are correct. Yet on the other hand, these aren't quests we are talking about they are Challenges, which, I am sure, are meant to be ran a bit different. Also, I would have to say, Of Course Everything Is Going To Seem Easy To You. How long have you been playing this game? Since the beginning of its time I can only assume. I can only suggest that you try starting a toon that has nothing, no money, and no gear other than what it picks up, just for a little while to remember what the typical player is going through. Other than that, I am sure the devs enjoyed your non-drunken rant :-P
Also, I admit it, I squealed at the prospect of running *Crystal Mansion* whenever I wanted. I love those little guys.

sephiroth1084
10-27-2011, 10:47 AM
How is this....

I have played a number of these new *quests* on on *epic* with my capped monk and found them fairly easy, yet enjoyable.
....any different from this?

Shade, Of Course Everything Is Going To Seem Easy To You. How long have you been playing this game? Since the beginning of its time I can only assume.
How geared are you that you found it to be easy?

Scraap
10-27-2011, 04:10 PM
As a hybrid implementation using elements of both epics, normal questing, and new systems, would you have been happier if they had simply called it something different, since you've advocated for (and correct me if I'm misremembering and that's someone else) "normal, hard and elite pics"?

I can certainly see the point that these epics aren't necessarily, but as a real starting point to accumulating gear to run harder epics, to get that gear to run harder epics, ect ect, it doesn't seem horrid, but then, that assumes that is the intent.

Akianna
10-27-2011, 07:21 PM
How is this....

....any different from this?

How geared are you that you found it to be easy?

Not very actually, but I was with a good party. That is far from being a statement that I thought it was easy to five star or anything like that, it was just fairly easy to complete and get a few ingredients. As far as to shade, it was just a general statement for him to remember that not everybody is as super uber geared out as him, and although, a lot of the game is skill, a lot of it is gear too. And that just because it is super easy to him doesn't mean that its not hard enough. I was asking him to remember all the little ones! The poor poor noobies!

Shade
10-27-2011, 09:18 PM
A lot of people go on and go about "oh you have x y z" gear so it should be easy.

It's illogical in reference to the challenges, because they offer objectives that aren't really gear intensive.

EG:
6 100% maxxed gear bbns would have little chance of 5 staring the epic kobold island stuff.
While
6 zero geared fresh 20 artificer with a few sp pots should have no trouble at all.

So really, TRY THEM OUT - then comment. And stop calling me out on things that make no sense if you havent done it,

I just solo'd the epic 21 of rushmoor on my caster too, my caster who was lvl13, and wear all lvl13 gear as I just got free xp for 20 from kookie and didnt regear. They are trivial to win, challenging to 5 star. Gear is not the reason for either.

weewoo0
10-27-2011, 10:55 PM
A lot of people go on and go about "oh you have x y z" gear so it should be easy.

It's illogical in reference to the challenges, because they offer objectives that aren't really gear intensive.

EG:
6 100% maxxed gear bbns would have little chance of 5 staring the epic kobold island stuff.
While
6 zero geared fresh 20 artificer with a few sp pots should have no trouble at all.

So really, TRY THEM OUT - then comment. And stop calling me out on things that make no sense if you havent done it,

I just solo'd the epic 21 of rushmoor on my caster too, my caster who was lvl13, and wear all lvl13 gear as I just got free xp for 20 from kookie and didnt regear. They are trivial to win, challenging to 5 star. Gear is not the reason for either.

so during these challenges my little sippy bird can stop playing my melee for me?

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 12:02 AM
Not very actually, but I was with a good party. That is far from being a statement that I thought it was easy to five star or anything like that, it was just fairly easy to complete and get a few ingredients. As far as to shade, it was just a general statement for him to remember that not everybody is as super uber geared out as him, and although, a lot of the game is skill, a lot of it is gear too. And that just because it is super easy to him doesn't mean that its not hard enough. I was asking him to remember all the little ones! The poor poor noobies!
Except that he qualified his statements with semi-concrete facts/observations about the challenges that are independent of gear, or even player skill.

It sounds silly, but I very rarely agree with Axer about something, and basically never defend him--he can take care of himself, and rarely needs or warrants defending--but in this case it looks to me like he managed to lay down some truly constructive and relatively unbiased criticism. People are quick to jump all over him (as am I at times), for being something of an elitist, but that is totally unwarranted here from what I can tell. The fact that you also felt that it was fairly easy, and are relatively undergeared should lend more credence to Axer's statements. Criticizing him in light of that just seems petty.

Ruphus
10-28-2011, 03:22 AM
OK, first off, let me start by saying that I have not tried these quests, but I do feel like I need to chime in on something.

That said.... I will admit I am mostly a soloer, aside from doing a few epics and raids with people I know, or joining PuG raids, so understand that I say this from a strictly balance point of view.....

I am a little worried about Dungeon Scaling being present on the "Epic" versions of these challenges. One of the things that makes Epic... well, Epic, is that the damage/hps/DC's and so forth is the same with 1 person or 6 people. And that is how it should be.

BruceTheHoon
10-28-2011, 04:21 AM
Challenges need chests for:

1) Random loot to help new players gear up while running them. No random loot effectively penalizes them in the gear and coin departments, decreasing the replayability value of the challenges even further than the extremely low XP revenue does. Yes, there are the trade-in items, but they are very specialized. When gearing up a level 4 character, I usually lok for something more universally useful than a Velah beater.

2) Epic tokens to help us slot the new items. Epic tokens are an integral part of the epic item mechanics. If you make an epic quest, there is no (and should be no) justifyable reason to not assign it an 'epic fragment value'. Support the system that you've made - the system that we have to play by. Again, it also severely decreases replayability value of the challenges; this time for the capped characters.

3) Guild renown. Judging by the initial players' response to crystal cove and by playing some of the challenges on lamannia, people will like challenges. Without a doubt, I dare to say, that some people will really like challenges. Don't penalize a guild's level progress for having such players. I'm from a very small guild that gets active several times per year. The activity was at an all time high during the recent CC event, yet the only measurable contribution to guild renown were my regular shroud runs. This is not right.


EDIT:
In retrospect, putting this in a thread about epic challenges was a poor decision, but what's done is done.

Akianna
10-28-2011, 04:32 AM
Except that he qualified his statements with semi-concrete facts/observations about the challenges that are independent of gear, or even player skill.

It sounds silly, but I very rarely agree with Axer about something, and basically never defend him--he can take care of himself, and rarely needs or warrants defending--but in this case it looks to me like he managed to lay down some truly constructive and relatively unbiased criticism. People are quick to jump all over him (as am I at times), for being something of an elitist, but that is totally unwarranted here from what I can tell. The fact that you also felt that it was fairly easy, and are relatively undergeared should lend more credence to Axer's statements. Criticizing him in light of that just seems petty.

Yes, he did. Which is why you don't see me arguing his point now do you? I just made a point of how we are talking about *challenges* and not *quests* and that for a couple of his worries about it not being epic because of them, *e.g. 3 minute time to go in and shrines resetting* may be w.a.i. I was also not soloing it. I was in a party of mostly casters which seemed to help a lot. Neither did I say that all one needed was gear. Having such though, helps out. Good gear helps a good player be better, and helps a sucky player not seem like they suck so much. Neither am I saying that gear is all you need. You need to be a good player for the most part, and I have no doubt that Shade is. I was just reminding him that he has been playing since the beginning of time, and asking if it would really be fair to put him even close to the same spectrum as most players as far as how difficult things should be. I am sure that it is quite a job for the devs and the like to be making a game that appeals to the masses, *being as they are a business I am sure first and foremost* with also trying to keep elite players *not to be confused with the term elitists* happy at the same time. So where a level 21 epic is meh challenging, but enjoyable, and a level 25 epic is crazy challenging. In no way did I criticize him once. In fact for all that I have said, I would think that he would take it as a compliment, *which he should* even if I am not great at them. If I had been playing as long as he has, I would think everything was super easy too.