PDA

View Full Version : Devs- Your Word For the Day: Spell Resistance



Khurse
10-25-2011, 08:45 AM
Ok I guess that's two words, so I won't post another one tomorrow.

Anyway I understand you have a stressful job, and it can be hard to think outside of the "make things work/make things not work" box.

While I know you're upset because the optimum party is no longer a Barb or two/Arcane to buff and hold stuff (again so it won't be too hard)/couple of healers and a bard. You don't have to be.

You can use this thing that's already in the game (see the link) to make instakill casters still able to use instakills, but be less efficient at the instakilling.

Spell Resistance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_resistance)

See this acts like AC vs spells. You need to get high spell penetration (described at the spell resistance link) in order to beat it. That means that a PM's wail won't get through all the time, and the best part- the Mob STILL gets a save against it!

It's like someone anticipated the problem of casters becoming overpowered and put something in the game to guard against it. WITHOUT using blanket immunities.

I know, I know, it's almost mind blowing. I mean, it could possibly let you do things like set the challenges up so that on the highest difficulty levels a first life PM with everything maxed for spell pen has a 40% (or more/less) chance to beat the spell resistance.

I know making something crazy like "spell resistance" work will be a tough battle.

But now that you know about it, you're half-way there.

Kmnh
10-25-2011, 08:49 AM
Ok I guess that's two words, so I won't post another one tomorrow.

Anyway I understand you have a stressful job, and it can be hard to think outside of the "make things work/make things not work" box.

While I know you're upset because the optimum party is no longer a Barb or two/Arcane to buff and hold stuff (again so it won't be too hard)/couple of healers and a bard. You don't have to be.

You can use this thing that's already in the game (see the link) to make instakill casters still able to use instakills, but be less efficient at the instakilling.

Spell Resistance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_resistance)

See this acts like AC vs spells. You need to get high spell penetration (described at the spell resistance link) in order to beat it. That means that a PM's wail won't get through all the time, and the best part- the Mob STILL gets a save against it!

It's like someone anticipated the problem of casters becoming overpowered and put something in the game to guard against it. WITHOUT using blanket immunities.

I know, I know, it's almost mind blowing. I mean, it could possibly let you do things like set the challenges up so that on the highest difficulty levels a first life PM with everything maxed for spell pen has a 40% (or more/less) chance to beat the spell resistance.

I know making something crazy like "spell resistance" work will be a tough battle.

But now that you know about it, you're half-way there.


The devs try to avoid messing around with spell resistance because of the passive past life feats.

each wizard past life grants you +2 spell penetration, and each FvS life grants +1.

There is also epic and raid gear that raises your spell pen scroe and caster level.

It's impossible to find a SR score that's fair to new players and not trivial to powergamers, so the devs don't try.

cforce
10-25-2011, 09:04 AM
each wizard past life grants you +2 spell penetration, and each FvS life grants +1.


You know, if the balance solution makes things too easy for casters with 3 wizard past lives and 3 favored soul past lives, I'm pretty OK with that. Let that person beat SR 95% of the time, and a well-geared first lifer only hit 50% -- and an undergeared or poorly built character get all the way down to 5-10%. There's still enough spread for the above situation to hold, and I don't think allowing a 6-past-life character to really excel is too much of a balance problem.

+1 to the OP.

Kmnh
10-25-2011, 09:07 AM
You know, if the balance solution makes things too easy for casters with 3 wizard past lives and 3 favored soul past lives, I'm pretty OK with that. Let that person beat SR 95% of the time, and a well-geared first lifer only hit 50% -- and an undergeared or poorly built character get all the way down to 5-10%. There's still enough spread for the above situation to hold, and I don't think allowing a 6-past-life character to really excel is too much of a balance problem.

+1 to the OP.

Anything that trivializes content is a balance problem. I play the game to have fun, not to pike for 15 minutes and then loot the chest.

mobrien316
10-25-2011, 09:09 AM
You know, if the balance solution makes things too easy for casters with 3 wizard past lives and 3 favored soul past lives, I'm pretty OK with that. Let that person beat SR 95% of the time, and a well-geared first lifer only hit 50% -- and an undergeared or poorly built character get all the way down to 5-10%. There's still enough spread for the above situation to hold, and I don't think allowing a 6-past-life character to really excel is too much of a balance problem.

+1 to the OP.

I agree. If someone wants to spend enough time to grind out three past wizard life feats, and maybe a couple of past favored soul life feats, let them bypass SR virtually all of the time. That's not overpowered, that a just reward.

Darkrok
10-25-2011, 09:09 AM
It's impossible to find a SR score that's fair to new players and not trivial to powergamers, so the devs don't try.

If the choice though is blanket immunities or crazy high SR? Sign me up for crazy high SR.

I'm not going to go through and derive the numbers but let's say we set them where a first life, non-elf that takes no spell pen feats/enh (but uses a spell pen item) beats spell pen on a 1. That would mean that at the crazy end, 3 wiz lives, 3 fvs lives, elf spending 16ap on spell pen, and 2 feats would get +19 and pass spell pen all the time - but just barely. That's honestly a fair situation. That's a complete sell-out for spell pen to make sure you always get past the mobs that used to have blanket immunities. 6 past lives, a specific race, 2 feats, and 16ap. Anything in between this complete sell-out for spell pen and a first-lifer with no feats/enhancements would be meaningful.

Kmnh
10-25-2011, 09:15 AM
If the choice though is blanket immunities or crazy high SR? Sign me up for crazy high SR.

I'm not going to go through and derive the numbers but let's say we set them where a first life, non-elf that takes no spell pen feats/enh (but uses a spell pen item) beats spell pen on a 1. That would mean that at the crazy end, 3 wiz lives, 3 fvs lives, elf spending 16ap on spell pen, and 2 feats would get +19 and pass spell pen all the time - but just barely. That's honestly a fair situation. That's a complete sell-out for spell pen to make sure you always get past the mobs that used to have blanket immunities. 6 past lives, a specific race, 2 feats, and 16ap. Anything in between this complete sell-out for spell pen and a first-lifer with no feats/enhancements would be meaningful.

Spell pen that high is a lot worse than a blanket immunity. It means you don't get to land anything - dance spells, hold, flesh to stone... It's a lot more frustrating for a newbie than having to stop at the shrine/tavern and switch his spells.

Galeria
10-25-2011, 09:23 AM
/signed

Blanket immunities are pointless. I really hate the thought of returning to the days of my arcanes being holdbots/buffbots. If it takes really high spell pen but the spells still have some hope of working in some situations then that's a goal that makes TRing worth it.

Here's the thing... making a more powerful character should allow you to be more powerful. I do not understand the people who do everything they can to gear and power up their character only to cry that now everything is too easy.

The thing is, yes, someday you will outgrow the game. You will win. Everything will be doable. Congrats. I'm sorry that you are bored but expecting the same game to continue to provide you with new challenges once you have done it all and collected it all is unrealistic whining.

joaofalcao
10-25-2011, 09:25 AM
Anything that trivializes content is a balance problem. I play the game to have fun, not to pike for 15 minutes and then loot the chest.

LOL.

We are talking about people who have 6 past lifes here. People who brought themselves all the trouble to lvl 6 lifes on the same character and who are very likely min-maxers who have every gear/race advantage possible.

Min-maxers will always trivialize content. If you start developing content for min-maxers, then you have a problem, for everyone will always be forced to min-max their asses to have 'fun' in this game. And it will become a frigging job.

Enough of the min-maxers. This is a DnD based game. Its supposed to teamplay and roleplay, not freaking math.

Darkrok
10-25-2011, 09:28 AM
Spell pen that high is a lot worse than a blanket immunity. It means you don't get to land anything - dance spells, hold, flesh to stone... It's a lot more frustrating for a newbie than having to stop at the shrine/tavern and switch his spells.

I understand that it would reduce some of the options...on the other hand it's only stopping those spells 95% of the time if you took no spell pen at all. A first life, non-elf could bring that down to 65% with 2 feats and 6ap.

I'm not saying it has to be that high either. Just illustrating that it is possible to do so in a way where you could have it non-trivial at the ridiculous end and still have the low end able to improve their chances. We're talking a spread of 19 total points which is conveniently the same size as the die roll.

Also, not that it's guaranteed but if we want to promote working together Improved Shattermantle weapons would give an extra 30% when applied.

Darkrok
10-25-2011, 09:34 AM
Min-maxers will always trivialize content.

Along those lines, maybe the answer is to have Spell Pen be trivial for non-elfs that have all the past lives, gear, feats, and enhancements. On my earlier post that would mean setting up the non-elven, no feats, no enhancements, first life toon with a spell pen item to succeed on a 5 or below. Now the 6 past life, 2 feat, 6ap toon succeeds on a 20 and the elven version can make some choices to exclude feats, switch up ap's, etc.

I just think that right now as it is Spell Pen is underused. Epic Drow take an enormous investment in Spell Pen to even think about hitting (as it should be) but beyond that anyone that takes the time to put in a few past lives/items/feats/enhancements in some combination can trivialize the rest of the spell pen. And I think the OP is right...that's part of why blanket immunities get added to the game.

voodoogroves
10-25-2011, 09:45 AM
I'll post it again

There's no reason to add SR to every mob. We get into the race and it's annoying and hard to balance those 6 past lifers with the first life folks. I laughed so hard when whoever it was posted that the DC 45 multi-past lives like Ayspam were able to walk through epics. No kidding - I freaking hope that investment was worth something more than bragging rights.



What I want is for mobs to spawn with a bit of variety, but somewhat predictable. I'd like more mobs to have SR, but not all need it ... and that SR can be a variable value in a meaningful-ish range. Maybe not epic drow SR, but solid.

Then I want some mobs to spawn with item-based, non-dispellable FOM, deathblock, resists ... randomized possibly, and possibly thematically weighted. Bosses should have some set and some variable absorbs, etc.

Others I want to to, when they spawn, have immediately "cast" ... again, random set. Death Ward, SR, FOM, resists, protects, etc. Could be thematically weighted as well.


Using a single mechanism to balance means we and others will game the system to be able to beat that one trick. If you want to make it really challenging and interesting, make it more varied.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-25-2011, 09:45 AM
The devs try to avoid messing around with spell resistance because of the passive past life feats.

each wizard past life grants you +2 spell penetration, and each FvS life grants +1.

There is also epic and raid gear that raises your spell pen scroe and caster level.

It's impossible to find a SR score that's fair to new players and not trivial to powergamers, so the devs don't try.

This really is the problem.

And I don't understand why they give people the ability to get so much more powerful than the average guy in the first place. :(


But once again, I will suggest "variety!"

Make dungeons with a variety of monsters... and it is fun for everyone.

Hordes of relatively weak minions to blast out of existance.

And tougher elite minions with deathblock. (just like we have btw)

Make dungeons where we can use our abilities and have fun. But also where we cannot use our abilties and have to adapt..... In the same dungeon!



low saves / high saves in the same dungeon!
low SR / high SR in the same dungeon!
(low HP / high HP you get the idea.)

that way the noob can contribute, the uber can show off, and everyone will have times that they have to adapt to.

Darkrok
10-25-2011, 10:12 AM
I'll post it again

There's no reason to add SR to every mob. We get into the race and it's annoying and hard to balance those 6 past lifers with the first life folks. I laughed so hard when whoever it was posted that the DC 45 multi-past lives like Ayspam were able to walk through epics. No kidding - I freaking hope that investment was worth something more than bragging rights.



What I want is for mobs to spawn with a bit of variety, but somewhat predictable. I'd like more mobs to have SR, but not all need it ... and that SR can be a variable value in a meaningful-ish range. Maybe not epic drow SR, but solid.

Then I want some mobs to spawn with item-based, non-dispellable FOM, deathblock, resists ... randomized possibly, and possibly thematically weighted. Bosses should have some set and some variable absorbs, etc.

Others I want to to, when they spawn, have immediately "cast" ... again, random set. Death Ward, SR, FOM, resists, protects, etc. Could be thematically weighted as well.


Using a single mechanism to balance means we and others will game the system to be able to beat that one trick. If you want to make it really challenging and interesting, make it more varied.

I love this. SR in the range I mentioned for some random mobs. Others with the other abilities you mentioned. One strategy will not roll over an entire epic dungeon. Having a varied party would be an asset as would having more than one option yourself.

Viisari
10-25-2011, 10:27 AM
And I don't understand why they give people the ability to get so much more powerful than the average guy in the first place. :(

Because if they didn't, the min-maxers would get bored and leave pretty quickly.

<edit> Also adding crazy spell res to mobs will mean that web will become the only viable cc for new casters, have fun with that. It will also mean that the difference between a toon with several wiz/fvs past lifes and a toon with no past lifes will become so big that the newbies might aswell not bother before they've got the past lives.

Barashkukor
10-25-2011, 10:36 AM
As a wizard, I fully support this idea. Blanket immunities = bad; more hard to reach goals = good.

"Need to spread more love around.." will get'ya tomorrow =)

Talon_Moonshadow
10-25-2011, 10:36 AM
Because if they didn't, the min-maxers would get bored and leave pretty quickly.

<edit> Also adding crazy spell res to mobs will mean that web will become the only viable cc for new casters, have fun with that. It will also mean that the difference between a toon with several wiz/fvs past lifes and a toon with no past lifes will become so big that the newbies might aswell not bother before they've got the past lives.

Yeah, but now they are either bored cause things are too easy, or mad because monsters are immune to the perks they grinded for. :(

joaofalcao
10-25-2011, 10:38 AM
min-maxers would get bored and leave pretty quickly.

I giggled. Sorry. Such a good thing to hear.

sephiroth1084
10-25-2011, 10:45 AM
Also note that many players use the wizard and favored soul past lives to save feats and AP, skipping some or all of the Spell Penetration lines. Therefore, multi-TR'ed casters aren't necessarily running around with a much higher spell pen score than newer players.

Compare:
Spell Pen +2
Greater Spell Pen +2
Wizard/Sorcerer Spell Pen III +3 (10 AP)
Minor Spell Pen IX +1 (The Twelve airship buffer)
_____
+8

vs.
Wiz PL x3 +6
FvS PL x3 +3
Wiz/Sorc SP II +2 (6 AP)
Greater Spell Pen VIII +3/Spell Pen IX +2
____
+14/13

That's not that big a difference. Even if the caster in question picked up Spell Penetration, they would only be 8 points above the caster with 0 past lives. That's still on the die. The TR'ed caster would be 40% more likely to bypass SR than the other caster. Hardly game breaking.

Let's add to the latter caster, just to see how far we're getting...

+14/13
Spell Pen +2
Greater Spell Pen +2
Wiz/Sorc Spell Pen III +1
____
+19/18

So a 55% better chance to bypass. Still on a d20. If the new caster has to roll a 15 to bypass SR (and, you know, likely use one of the other 40 spells in their arsenal instead), the maxed-out caster would need to roll a 3. Not difficult, but not 100% either. And it's reasonable, for some very difficult quests, to assume that newer casters will either have to go work on some gear, or use spells that don't call for spell pen against some mobs. It's not ridiculous to have some mobs with SR high enough that new casters can't beat it (need a roll of 21+), which would put the multi-TRed casters in the position of having to roll a 10+ or so.

The OP's idea is pretty reasonable.

cforce
10-25-2011, 10:46 AM
Anything that trivializes content is a balance problem. I play the game to have fun, not to pike for 15 minutes and then loot the chest.

You're creating a false dichotomy and arguing the extreme. I agree with the above statement completely.

But, a solution that trivialized content for 0.1% of players in the game would be about 200th on the list of balance problems, whereas instakill vs. blanket immunities is probably somewhere in the top 20 right now.

sephiroth1084
10-25-2011, 10:52 AM
Because if they didn't, the min-maxers would get bored and leave pretty quickly.

<edit> Also adding crazy spell res to mobs will mean that web will become the only viable cc for new casters, have fun with that. It will also mean that the difference between a toon with several wiz/fvs past lifes and a toon with no past lifes will become so big that the newbies might aswell not bother before they've got the past lives.
Except that the devs lowered epic trash HP enough that casters can nuke, also, and most casters are carrying a PrE with some moderate free/super-cheap nuking. Can't bypass SR? Toss a web and follow it up with a Chain Lightning or two, or drop an Ice Storm on the group.

Henky
10-25-2011, 11:07 AM
My first life wizzy WF AM spell penetration is:

20 lvls + 4 feats + 3 enhancements + 2 item = 29

Epic drows on sentinels/von3 have 45 SR. My caster need a 17 on a dice to pass the SR, a 14 if a bard is on party and the proc on Rahkir' set is active.

Right now PM are the "right choice" for a wizzard (i still like my WF AM). Nerf all spells except web for CC and the really only choice will be PM + web + free nuking with SLA.

/not signed

PS: on Crystal Cove you can use Energy Drain and Trap the Soul = Instakill

fasteddie8989
10-25-2011, 11:13 AM
So why not fix fix SR and AC at the same time? Get off the d20 and go to a d40 or d60. This will enable an incress in the range of SR and AC that would still make a diffrence.

I know the d20 is the base of PNP but this is not PNP (casters have 400+hp in DDO not PNP).

Darkrok
10-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Also note that many players use the wizard and favored soul past lives to save feats and AP, skipping some or all of the Spell Penetration lines. Therefore, multi-TR'ed casters aren't necessarily running around with a much higher spell pen score than newer players.

Right now that's absolutely correct because once you get into the high 20's/low 30's there's diminishing returns. You either sell out to be able to do ok on epic drow or you stand pat and don't worry about Spell Pen anymore. Most people do what you mentioned - use the past lives to skip out on the feats and spell pen ap's.

I would love to see Spell Pen more meaningful to make that decision more interesting.

crimsonrazac
10-25-2011, 11:25 AM
My only issue with this is sr only applys to crowd control spells so this would pretty muck only hamper wizards.

Damage spells don't have to bypass sr so sorcs would still blow stuff up and the divine instakill implosion doesn't have a sr check either.

Cyr
10-25-2011, 11:30 AM
Yeah, death spell immunity is a drastically different beast then super high SR due to what spells are effected so /not signed.

I could go for some high SR mobs in epics, but not as the standard idea...

Bago
10-25-2011, 11:38 AM
The problem with a system in which a first-life wizard beats SR (say) 50% and the time, and a quad-life wizard beats it 80% is that its such a significant disparity that the past lives cease being an option. The wizard past life is already at the point where many power gamers consider one to be mandatory (and with the barbarian fix, it is the only one at quite that level now.) Raising this number is not an improvement.