PDA

View Full Version : Remove the hit point display in parties.



Gregen
10-22-2011, 04:12 AM
At first I liked the update that let you see everyone's HP. It made it easier to play as a healer. But the more I played after the update, the less I liked it.

The real problem is a vast amount of immature, pompous players in DDO. But that can't be helped. The next best thing is to remove the feature that allows everyone to see your HP. I'll tell you what I mean, if you listen to my case. And please, don't just skim through it.

I've been playing DDO for about 2 years. Not as long as many of the players here, but long enough to have experience in the game. I always build my characters to be efficient. I aim for maximum output, so I don't focus *heavily* on hit points (except for on my tank). I've always carried what I felt was an appropriate amount of hit points and has been working for me, no problem.
Here's what's interesting: One of the characters I play is a cleric. I created it purely for healing and buffing (and turning undead). As a character that does not battle, it's not focused on hit points.
BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.

I have 7 characters, and on none of them have I ever been told or suggested that I'm a poor player. I've always been efficient and effective. After the update, I was fairly surprised at the average HP people have. On all my characters, I could see after the update I typically have fewer hit points than the majority of all players. That's not to say I always have the least HP in parties, that's not the case. I'm not trying to be boas'tful, but I'm a good player. I know I am. So it's quite bothersome to receive judgement of my ability based solely on my HP.

I'd even go so far as to say this warps the mentality of SOME players as to what is important. I believe having an exorbitant amount of HP is becoming overrated. From what I've heard, people are even changing their builds just to be accepted in groups. It throws off balance of the game.
Since with this new system, judgement is more based on this immediate display, and less on the actual performance of a player. For example, a fighter could pour all his stat points into CON and take nothing but Toughness for all his feats. He would have a large ration of hit points and would most likely be respected among other players. But this same character could hit like a weak child, and have very little impact. A lot of people wouldn't even notice and just assume he's pro by looking at his HP.

A couple weeks ago I even changed my ranger a little bit to get more HP just so I could easier be accepted into shroud runs and complete my green steel weapon. I *REALLY* want to emphasize the fact that I was having no trouble with shroud runs, yet AFTER the update, I had to DECREASE my DPS to attain superfluous hit points.

For me, it's a shame. I like the concept of seeing how much HP everyone has, for greater improving party efficiency. But it seems like *some* people are too daft to understand what efficiency really is.
It wouldn't be a problem if I had friends that played with the same ideals, but I don't. All I have is the community. Again, while not everyone is like what I'm describing, there are enough people to ruin the game for me.

Am I the only one meeting this conflict? If it's affecting a large number of players this way, I would like to see the HP display removed from the party, and further the balance of the game. If I'm the only one who feels this way, then I'll accept myself as singled out, move on, and probably never put another minute or dime into DDO. I could change my builds, but I'd rather not play the way I do not want to play. It is simply not fun.

pSINNa
10-22-2011, 04:32 AM
Sometimes if i'm in a party (usually a raid) that's taking more then a few minutes to fill, i'll turn it on for the sake of curiosity.

Then i turn it off again, i find it distracting.

I find it especially distracting if i'm on a healing class - really - i don't want to know! :).

If people are obsessing on it, then you'll probably find those people are not the kind you want to party up with too much anyway.

Case in point, i jumped on a pug shroud the other day, which had "minimum 400hp" in the LFM becuase i was curious as to what sort of vibe/leadership the person running it had.

There was no leadership, another assume everyone knows the deal and will automatically do the raid for me type deal, and in part 4 one of the healers proceeds to say "stay in for the blade" and from that point no more heals hit the party (he admitted later that he forgot to turn quicken on, and hit mass heal at that point xD).

Everyone died, except the arcane, the only person in the party with less then 400hp.

I thought it was hilarious.

Don't let it bother you, it's just the Myddo rubbish all over again, and people will get over it, or reasonable players will learn to avoid them.

Chin up, Coit out~

Absolute-Omniscience
10-22-2011, 05:57 AM
It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.

krackythehoodedone
10-22-2011, 06:29 AM
I understand your thinking.

It really depends what you are doing and how you do it.

Just to draw conclusions about anyone on the ammount of hit points they have is rather judgemental.

If youve solo healed my Shroud and it turns out you have fewer hit points than i expected it wouldnt stop me inviting you.

It is also about how others deal with the information presented to them.

Did a Shroud last week with a Rogue with 180 Hit Points. No one booted him or gave him any grief. But the party did as a whole have a discussion about how to max out hit points by using items etc etc. He got thru without dieing btw.

As always their is another side. Hit Points are important and you should do everything you can to maximise them. Obviously survivability is pretty key for a healer.

Their are also one or two quests (EADQ2 springs to mind) where you need a certain number of hit points to survive. You take three healers in their with under 350 each and you are pretty much doomed before you start

slimkj
10-22-2011, 06:29 AM
BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.
Do you really want to be helping (by being the healer) the kind of people that kick you for not having their desired level of HP? The way I see it, you just got saved from grouping with some idiots.

Wildseed
10-22-2011, 06:58 AM
please see new thing bad, old thing good....

Personally I'd like to be booted for my hp, didn't need that party anyway. Let's me know who's really in the game just cause they want to group with uber players just like themselves. Not everyone's a min-maxer, that's a good thing. Consequently I like the new thing so it's good for me. Now on the other hand, if you have low hp, and you DIE in every quest once or twice then you might want to rethink your choice of low hitpoints (Met a ranger like this, he died so much I went to Myddo (btw folks can check your hps here if they're interested so it's really moot) just to see why he died so much. He had 10 base con, no items at the time, so... that was why, to which I told him con is not a dump stat although it doesn't need to be uber, on an elf I recommend at least 13 and eat a 1 tome to get to 14 base)... but sorry, that's a tangent, so ...

/not signed

aristarchus1000
10-22-2011, 07:02 AM
I honestly don't understand why someone's hitpoints should be any secret.

If people don't like your hitpoint total you can either change it or find another group.

I find the immediately availability of hitpoints to be extremely helpful. It made healing my last ToD a total breeze to know exactly how much hitpoints my tank and everyone else had.

/not signed.

PNellesen
10-22-2011, 08:15 AM
I don't have a problem with the HP display, though I find it distracting. I'll do the same "out of curiosity" thing at the start too, then turn it off once I know who's going to need some paying attention to and who's not. If I'm doing a Shroud and see that the other healer-type (if there is one) has << 300 HP, I may keep more of an eye on them than I would normally do (Harry has a knack for hitting the healers with a couple fireballs in quick succession) but otherwise I don't really care what anyone's HP is - a guy with 700HP can be more of a drain on my resources than the 200HP Elf Wiz with no fort, depending on how they play.

Memek
10-22-2011, 08:24 AM
I like the new HP display. More information makes the game more fun.

Also, other players arent obliged to group with you. If the HP display makes them find out about your build and decide they dont want to party with your character, that is their right. Whether that is justified or not.

You can always make your own group.

Syllph
10-22-2011, 08:30 AM
Personally I really like the HP display. There was a ranger I ran with a few times who dies in most quests and always said I don't know how they burnt through 500 HP so quickly. Time and time again he told us his 500-600 HP range it changed depending on the day apparently. Happily, his myddo was bugged with 13 names all which said archived.

He was one of the first on the forums asking for it not to show HP. Can you guess why?

When HP were finally displayed I didn't see him on for a while. Then finally were in a shroud together and his 500 HP looked more like 135. When I sent him a tell asking where his 500 HP were he said he had respeced the night before.

Showing the HP had allowed me the freedom to know a little more about why the guy in my group might be dying. Now given I won't kick someone from the group for having what -I- consider less than appropriate HP. I will, however, kick him when he dies over and over and I believe it's due to crummy HP.

Before the display I simply had to say it was bad luck. Now I can say, really you respeced out close to 400 HP?

AestorTheKnight
10-22-2011, 08:30 AM
I agree with the OP. :)

Its one of the most intolerant and mean things Ive seen in DDO to date. Players discriminating against each other for their HP count. I really think it was an insensitive and careless move on behalf of the Devs to introduce HP count on the Bars. A move that plays straight into the hands of griefers and jerks.

MyDDO was quite sufficient.

I too would prefer to have the HP/SP count on bars removed. But hey thats not gonna happen.

cpito
10-22-2011, 08:52 AM
Perhaps this is the developers way of saying that con is not a dumpstat?

dunklezhan
10-22-2011, 09:40 AM
Do you really want to be helping (by being the healer) the kind of people that kick you for not having their desired level of HP? The way I see it, you just got saved from grouping with some idiots.

This, mostly.

I've got some characters with bags of HP, some with less. Since the update I had someone demand to know what my Con score was because 'you're a little light on hitpoints for a fighter' - this was after a wipe on an elite run, two levels over my actual character level where I was not only the lowest level in the group, but also the last person standing. This expert had been the one who dropped first (actually the cause of the wipe since Mr Superwizard had just dived into a room full of deurgar and aggroed the lot). As it happens I'd been on my way back to the shrine with everyone's stones when the rate of arrows hitting me finally exceeded the rate at which I could drink from my ample supply of CSW pots. I mentioned that fact and this expert players said 'well that would have been me if it hadn't been for lag'. Right.

I've been in an Amrath group before the update where my sorc kept dying. After the third death the group asked what the hell my HP and Con were, clearly expecting some horribly low numbers which is not the case. I told them. They asked whether I had x, y, z. Which I did. They shrugged and moved on - and I stayed well back, clearly this group liked to pull huge swarms of mobs, and I was too close to them without the skill to survive. I'm not ashamed of that, how else am I supposed to learn my limits?

Both circumstances show what happens when you assume HP are the be all and end all of survivability whether before or after the 'visibility' of HP in the UI. Now, when I go to shroud on my elven AA, I expect to get criticism - its a ranged character so I'd have been criticised anyway, and now because I've focussed on having decent damage output and mitigation over my raw HP that's just another thing to pick on.

But I'm not going to let people prejudging me on a visible HP score stop me playing. I didn't let it stop me when people could MyDDO me, and I won't let it stop me now. Its their problem, not mine, if they're so goal oriented they've forgotten how to relax their sphincters and enjoy themselves from time to time. I'll find a group with guildies, or start my own PuG, or whatever.

Personally, I like to see the HP totals. Lots of low numbers means adjusting tactics to cope, not kicking people. The problem is people's obsession with hitting everything as fast as possible and DPS DPS DPS. This means they've either forgotten or don't care how to apply team work. I'd rather play with you, but if you wanna rush off and solo the quest go ahead. I'll amble along behind and pike the chests after you've cleared them for me.

Other people's ******ry is other people's problem - the game is big enough for me to find fun not in their company.

Sweyn
10-22-2011, 10:02 AM
TL ; DR version?

dunklezhan
10-22-2011, 10:29 AM
TL ; DR version?

Oh that's easy. People jump to conclusions based on very little evidence. This is not news.

Xenostrata
10-22-2011, 11:18 AM
I've not seen a single person booted from a group for having too little hp. The closest I have come was a ToD run in which a ~240 hp wizard joined, he was advised about how difficult it would be to keep him up with such low health in ToD, and he promptly dropped group - and then sent the leader a /tell about how he was going to report the whole group for harasment, so I was not really worried about losing him.

I can say that when I'm on recon duty, it helps immensely to know that my tank has 800 hp and that I should hold off on my recon until he is 3/8 down to save sp. And, while levelling my new cleric, the huge hp gap between some level 6-9 players (50 hp rogues with 190 hp fighters) makes it so that I'm not wasting the same cure serious on the rogue as I am on the fighter.

As much as I feel that people with less hp do tend to be less of a drain on the healer (I have generally discovered that the 900~ hp types take damage with mad abandon and the 300~ hp types have learned proper mitigation), there really is no reason for any class to have less than 250 hp at cap. Especially characters like your healer type - if he is focused only on healing, then what exactly would you sacrifice to boost hp? A healbot should have MORE hp than a battle cleric, since it has more stat points and gear slots that can be used on health.

Zenthalas
10-22-2011, 11:26 AM
At first I liked the update that let you see everyone's HP. It made it easier to play as a healer. But the more I played after the update, the less I liked it.

The real problem is a vast amount of immature, pompous players in DDO. But that can't be helped. The next best thing is to remove the feature that allows everyone to see your HP. I'll tell you what I mean, if you listen to my case. And please, don't just skim through it.

I've been playing DDO for about 2 years. Not as long as many of the players here, but long enough to have experience in the game. I always build my characters to be efficient. I aim for maximum output, so I don't focus *heavily* on hit points (except for on my tank). I've always carried what I felt was an appropriate amount of hit points and has been working for me, no problem.
Here's what's interesting: One of the characters I play is a cleric. I created it purely for healing and buffing (and turning undead). As a character that does not battle, it's not focused on hit points.
BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.

I have 7 characters, and on none of them have I ever been told or suggested that I'm a poor player. I've always been efficient and effective. After the update, I was fairly surprised at the average HP people have. On all my characters, I could see after the update I typically have fewer hit points than the majority of all players. That's not to say I always have the least HP in parties, that's not the case. I'm not trying to be boas'tful, but I'm a good player. I know I am. So it's quite bothersome to receive judgement of my ability based solely on my HP.

I'd even go so far as to say this warps the mentality of SOME players as to what is important. I believe having an exorbitant amount of HP is becoming overrated. From what I've heard, people are even changing their builds just to be accepted in groups. It throws off balance of the game.
Since with this new system, judgement is more based on this immediate display, and less on the actual performance of a player. For example, a fighter could pour all his stat points into CON and take nothing but Toughness for all his feats. He would have a large ration of hit points and would most likely be respected among other players. But this same character could hit like a weak child, and have very little impact. A lot of people wouldn't even notice and just assume he's pro by looking at his HP.

A couple weeks ago I even changed my ranger a little bit to get more HP just so I could easier be accepted into shroud runs and complete my green steel weapon. I *REALLY* want to emphasize the fact that I was having no trouble with shroud runs, yet AFTER the update, I had to DECREASE my DPS to attain superfluous hit points.

For me, it's a shame. I like the concept of seeing how much HP everyone has, for greater improving party efficiency. But it seems like *some* people are too daft to understand what efficiency really is.
It wouldn't be a problem if I had friends that played with the same ideals, but I don't. All I have is the community. Again, while not everyone is like what I'm describing, there are enough people to ruin the game for me.

Am I the only one meeting this conflict? If it's affecting a large number of players this way, I would like to see the HP display removed from the party, and further the balance of the game. If I'm the only one who feels this way, then I'll accept myself as singled out, move on, and probably never put another minute or dime into DDO. I could change my builds, but I'd rather not play the way I do not want to play. It is simply not fun.

Personally I'd like to know if my healer is going to get 1 shotted w/ a meteor swarm. Soo yeah /not signed keep it. MINIMUM 14 CON it's not hard to do. Your not doing "maximum output DPS" or hjeals if your dead.

Gorbadoc
10-22-2011, 12:56 PM
If people are obsessing on it, then you'll probably find those people are not the kind you want to party up with too much anyway...

Don't let it bother you, it's just the Myddo rubbish all over again, and people will get over it, or reasonable players will learn to avoid them.

Chin up, Coit out~This. Except the "Coit out" bit, because I don't know what it means, though it sounds like something I wouldn't do in DDO.


The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

There's a big difference between 290 and 400. Greater False Life, +6 Con item, 16 base Con, Toughness, and Racial Toughness 1-2 should get any class into the 300s, but it won't break 400 for the lower-hp classes.

Of course, they can get more HP with epic items and greensteel, but it's silly to think badly of a player who runs The Shroud without greensteel-- if nothing else, how were you expecting them to get greensteel?

Xenostrata
10-22-2011, 01:37 PM
It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

This is the HP breakdown on my reasonably geared level 20 Drow Sorcerer, Wyllywyl:
14 base con
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exc con ToD ring
=24 con
80 base HD
20 Heroic Durability
140 Con Bonus
30 GFL
10 Argo favor
20 Minos
22 Toughness
20 toughness enhancements
45 GS
=387 base HP. Rage puts me barely over 400, and this is effectively the MAXIMUM possible hp, barring stupid ideas like putting level ups into Con instead of Cha or me ever finding a +4 tome (and, tbh, I'd rather sell the tome out of the chest for a stack of reds than take an extra 20 hp)

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

~jradnut
10-22-2011, 03:00 PM
This really shouldn't be an issue.

Everybody should max out con at the expense of DPS.

The reason is obvious...so we can all stand around whiffling at Harry!

Harry needs AC (air conditioning) :p

Monkey_Archer
10-22-2011, 03:34 PM
The HP display is a good thing, and every time anyone gets kicked because of HP it is good.

Heres why:

1) If your 200 hp rogue gets kicked from an epic DQ, dragon, etc.., its because there's no way you can possibly survive and contribute. If you're dead the whole time: a) you are a wasted party spot and b) you aren't going to be having any fun residing in someone's backpack anyway. So theres no reason for you to want to be there, and theres no reason for a party leader to bring you along.

2) If your 399 hp ranger gets kicked from a normal shroud, vod, hound, etc..., its because that party leader is a complete noob that has no idea how to play the game, or what it takes to complete raids. If the party leader is a noob: a) the group might never fill and b) is likely to fail if it does. So theres really no reason why you should even want to be in that group in the first place.

Its really a win win situation :D

Thlargir
10-22-2011, 04:14 PM
I honestly don't understand why someone's hitpoints should be any secret.

Let me explain, no, there is no time; let me sum up:

1) Roll playing: In RL nobody walks around with their HP on their nametag, one simply assumes that the NFL lineman has many HP and the chartered accountant not so much. In PnP the gods got really angry with characters who talked publically. In short, it has no place in an RPG.

2) Topical Distraction: Since U11 I cannot recall a single PUG where HP has not been a topic of conversation at some point. Hopefully the novelty will wear off and only the epeen brigade will care, however, I doubt it.

3) Grief Tool: Not that is is new, however, the presentation of this data so obviously to the entire party makes the would be griefers opportunity to be a jerk so much easier.

4) Visual Distraction: When healing I don't care about absolute values, I care only about bars not hitting the end stop. Now, I may be old with failing eyesight but things were a lot cleaner with a fatter bar with no clutter.

5) HP are class/gear dependent and are not determined by player capability. The very fact that some folks have set the bar at 400hp at cap for all classes/races simply shows that they have not played certain class race combos to cap as first characters. The arithmetic is shown in other posts in this thread.

Disclaimer: Being old and slow my characters have plenty of HP, but that does not blind me from the fact that it is not desirable for everyone.

Sarisa
10-22-2011, 04:35 PM
As a raid and epic healer, I like the display.

It

Lets me know how much I need to watch the bars, and how much I can offensive cast/CC/melee.
Gives me a hint as to who is going to need watched carefully, or in Mass Heal situations, who is not going to survive between Heal's. Vitally important for SP conservation in eVoN6.
Lets me know exactly how close a tank is to the Horoth Disintegrate danger zone. I could estimate it before, but it's far better to know exactly now, especially if the tank is rotating Scourge Choker triggers.
Lets me know when "Voltron" dispels the tank's Deathward, and neither I nor the tank sees it, and he gets Energy Drained.


So yes, it can be used to grief, but it also does a great service to most healers. I personally haven't seen much of any HP griefing.

sirgog
10-22-2011, 07:55 PM
Someone with insufficient HP to contribute to an AoE damage fight - like a 440hp melee in eVON6 - is griefing the divines in the group by making it more likely they will need pots.

Now it's easy to kick these people BEFORE they waste mana potions.

Of course for normal Shroud, who cares? Any half-decent caster can finish the Fiend off solo if everyone else dies.

Jaid314
10-22-2011, 08:16 PM
yeah, i wouldn't consider any of my characters to have particularly awe-inspiring hit points, but i do put some effort in to keep all of them at decent hit points. i don't feel that i have sacrificed much if any offensive capability on any of my characters to do so. so far i have been kicked from approximately zero groups for having too few hit points.

sure, some people can get by with really bad hit points. but, they'd be fine in every single situation they're currently fine in, plus in any further situations where a few more hit points would have kept them alive, if they had more hit points. and, generally speaking, that would come without any major losses in offensive capability.

Sweyn
10-22-2011, 08:23 PM
Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

This is the HP breakdown on my reasonably geared level 20 Drow Sorcerer, Wyllywyl:
14 base con
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exc con ToD ring
=24 con
80 base HD
20 Heroic Durability
140 Con Bonus
30 GFL
10 Argo favor
20 Minos
22 Toughness
20 toughness enhancements
45 GS
=387 base HP. Rage puts me barely over 400, and this is effectively the MAXIMUM possible hp, barring stupid ideas like putting level ups into Con instead of Cha or me ever finding a +4 tome (and, tbh, I'd rather sell the tome out of the chest for a stack of reds than take an extra 20 hp)
The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

taurean430
10-22-2011, 08:54 PM
I'm going to have to go with not signed.

It's very true that a base 14-16 con coupled with standard items, favor granted feat (draconic vitality), minos, and a +2 tome grants a hp total worthy of running content without problems.

The argument the OP presents is one that is limited to an extremely small sample of the population of players. There are in fact players that can faceroll any content this game offers with low hp. This does not apply in the vast majority of cases. The recommendation exists for a reason. The same reason that players with the most experience share variants of their builds that work on these forums. It's to actually help newer players be functional and not a party drain or wasted slot in difficult content.

I still see people trying to debate in parties that their sub 300hp are good enough to do EVon6. Improved evasion, higher dps, yadda yadda. He was allowed in and proceeded to die 4 times on the bases, and another 6 times in front of the dragon before I got bored with ressing him. This guy still wanted to blame me for throwing only mass heal on the party without multiple mass cures so he can live. All in all that would have equated to a multi pot venture. Forget that mess. With zero pots I can heal a party to around 25% of the dragons health before I am tapped.

I am amazed that people are complaining about supposed discrimination based on hp. My cleric (d6)has a lowish 490 or so at cap. My wizard (d4) has 467 before buffs, 527 after buffing himself with ability to boost to 567 if needed.

Suffice to say, I don't support the idea of people with dumpstated con or minus standard simple to get gear making my cleric or fvs job three times harder.

Vyrn
10-22-2011, 09:18 PM
Im pretty sure my cleric is reasonably geared, nothing amazing like eRoSS but pretty fine at 542 unbuffed, so I personally could care less about people looking at my HP/SP. I do however agree with people saying it removes a part of the game, and creates unnecessary and, in alot of cases, unjustified ePeens.

Possible way to solve this would be to just convey the information to just the party leader, theyre the only ones who need to know this information anyhow. We were healing just fine using just red bars before and dont really need to know the actual max HP.

Xenostrata
10-23-2011, 12:07 AM
The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

You did catch the bit where I was talking about what would be attainable by a NEW player, right?

Assuming most new players do not have access to yugo pots or high level guilds. Also, why are you wearing a Litany? It should be putting your charisma on an odd number, and the trinket slot would be better filled with a Spyglass for UMD/TS or a VB/PL ioun stone.

Also, note that I only have +2 exceptional because I'm an air savant, and my ring choice has +1 exc dex. My other ring is Ann Velsing's, for the strength bonus (carrying capacity) and the +1 exc charisma.

So, first life Drow loses 20 off the top from stats, 20 from the litany/exc con 1, 20 off of the airship (you really shouldn't count airship buffs when considering "max possible", since you are most likely to lose them in the places you need them the most) and I'll admit that I forgot the Yugo pot. So 440 on a decently geared first life Drow. My point, however, still stands that for a NEWLY CAPPED first life drow that 292 is pretty much the top, until some other serious gear is put in.

Drekisen
10-23-2011, 12:50 AM
/not signed

get more HP and/or don't play with morons who are unable to adapt to lesser than optimal parties and still prevail.

I think the new UI rocks now that they scrunched it down in size.

Vellrad
10-23-2011, 01:33 AM
Once we had 10 guildies for hox, so we put up LFM.
Artificer and rogue joins, first with 400HP, second with 150.
Guess which one died?
Rigth, artificer.
Also rogue was healing people with wand when needed, and shocked me by healing me with inflict wand when I was tesnered.

I never saw anyone kicked for having less than X HP, I was once kicked to having too much HP.
Some people don't understand that you can get a lot of HP and don't dump anything important.

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 09:06 AM
You did catch the bit where I was talking about what would be attainable by a NEW player, right?

Assuming most new players do not have access to yugo pots or high level guilds. Also, why are you wearing a Litany? It should be putting your charisma on an odd number, and the trinket slot would be better filled with a Spyglass for UMD/TS or a VB/PL ioun stone.

Also, note that I only have +2 exceptional because I'm an air savant, and my ring choice has +1 exc dex. My other ring is Ann Velsing's, for the strength bonus (carrying capacity) and the +1 exc charisma.

So, first life Drow loses 20 off the top from stats, 20 from the litany/exc con 1, 20 off of the airship (you really shouldn't count airship buffs when considering "max possible", since you are most likely to lose them in the places you need them the most) and I'll admit that I forgot the Yugo pot. So 440 on a decently geared first life Drow. My point, however, still stands that for a NEWLY CAPPED first life drow that 292 is pretty much the top, until some other serious gear is put in.

I quoted you saying "It's the MAXIMUM possible HP for a well geared out sorc, like yours." I simply put it that that was far from the fact. You weren't talking about a new player in the line i quoted you.

Why am i wearing litany? Because it's the best casting trinket in the game. It only puts your CHA at an odd number if you take the CHA III enhancement, which if you are wearing litany you don't have to, effectivley freeing up 6 AP. That alone makes it the best. I mean, what if there were an item in game that just randomly gave you 6 extra AP? Everyone would wear it. Secondly, it also gives you 20 HP, which is very meaningful on a d4 character. The spyglass is an utter waste of a slot. At level 20 you should be able to get 40+ umd without any items anyway, true seeing is cast by a spell or scroll. The litany is hands down the best trinket in the game for most people.

As for your exceptional +1 con, you can craft that on pretty much any epic item no? Being an air savant is a poor excuse for not being able to have +1 con.

The fact is, is that there are so many ways to boost your HP in this game, that even new players shouldn't be below 300 on any toon. Sure, the second they hit cap they might be, but run a few quests, get a few items and your good.

Xenostrata
10-23-2011, 10:16 AM
I quoted you saying "It's the MAXIMUM possible HP for a well geared out sorc, like yours." I simply put it that that was far from the fact. You weren't talking about a new player in the line i quoted you.

Why am i wearing litany? Because it's the best casting trinket in the game. It only puts your CHA at an odd number if you take the CHA III enhancement, which if you are wearing litany you don't have to, effectivley freeing up 6 AP. That alone makes it the best. I mean, what if there were an item in game that just randomly gave you 6 extra AP? Everyone would wear it. Secondly, it also gives you 20 HP, which is very meaningful on a d4 character. The spyglass is an utter waste of a slot. At level 20 you should be able to get 40+ umd without any items anyway, true seeing is cast by a spell or scroll. The litany is hands down the best trinket in the game for most people.

As for your exceptional +1 con, you can craft that on pretty much any epic item no? Being an air savant is a poor excuse for not being able to have +1 con.

The fact is, is that there are so many ways to boost your HP in this game, that even new players shouldn't be below 300 on any toon. Sure, the second they hit cap they might be, but run a few quests, get a few items and your good.

If you missed the beginning, I said reasonably geared out sorc. That generally means no +4 tomes, no past lives, and you can't count ship buffs for anything "standing".

Litany is a nice trinket when it doesn't drop your casting stat on an odd number, but I'd MUCH rather wear a VB ioun stone 24/7 for the spell pen 9/archmagi than get a "free" 6 AP (especially since it effectively frees up the Spell Pen enhancements, which cost the same or more than that last rank of charisma). Don't start on how hard it is to get one; if you are grinding out 20+ abbots you should be at the point where you can afford it.

gloopygloop
10-23-2011, 10:33 AM
If you missed the beginning, I said reasonably geared out sorc. That generally means no +4 tomes, no past lives, and you can't count ship buffs for anything "standing".

Litany is a nice trinket when it doesn't drop your casting stat on an odd number, but I'd MUCH rather wear a VB ioun stone 24/7 for the spell pen 9/archmagi than get a "free" 6 AP (especially since it effectively frees up the Spell Pen enhancements, which cost the same or more than that last rank of charisma). Don't start on how hard it is to get one; if you are grinding out 20+ abbots you should be at the point where you can afford it.

It can be challenging for some characters to get above 400 HP without a couple of buffs.
No character should satisfied with running around under 300 HP at 20.

I think it's fine for a first life character to have "low" HP when they hit 20 because their gear hasn't yet caught up with their level. The idea that it's hard to get over 300 HP, though, is just absurd.

Astraghal
10-23-2011, 10:37 AM
I don't see why anyone has an issue with HP totals being displayed, unless they are trying to hide something. Prior to the changes, I suspected that low HP often went hand in hand with incompetence. The UI changes confirmed my suspicions. I have come to realize that a lot of supposedly good players got really lazy on their HP and that's actually the main reason they fail when they do. I find HP are a very good index of competence.

Almost all the epic raids that I see fail are the one's where you see a 350-600 HP range, rather than a 450-700 range. When clerics, bards, rogues, monks, arcanes and rangers have less than 400 HP I know the chances of success for that group are lessened. Having 500 HP on a softer character is a huge survival boost and those are the players you see still standing contributing at the end of an eDQ2/eDragon/any fight where something unexpected might happen that requires you to survive.

Yes it might be annoying for newer players, but it really isn't that hard to get HP and they really do make a big difference. I'm glad it's easier to identify the gimps now.

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 11:14 AM
If you missed the beginning, I said reasonably geared out sorc. That generally means no +4 tomes, no past lives, and you can't count ship buffs for anything "standing".

Litany is a nice trinket when it doesn't drop your casting stat on an odd number, but I'd MUCH rather wear a VB ioun stone 24/7 for the spell pen 9/archmagi than get a "free" 6 AP (especially since it effectively frees up the Spell Pen enhancements, which cost the same or more than that last rank of charisma). Don't start on how hard it is to get one; if you are grinding out 20+ abbots you should be at the point where you can afford it.

UMADBRO?

Lol in my rebuttal i said "Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable." So i'm not counting +4 tomes, i'm not counting PL, and i'm not counting ship buffs. I'm not gonna get into a discussion on what's the ideal gear slots for a sorc, whatever floats your boat man.

Elixxer
10-23-2011, 11:49 AM
Perhaps this is the developers way of saying that con is not a dumpstat?

This gave me a good laugh!

Drekisen
10-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Wouldn't be so hard for people to step it up a little to and be a little more helpful.

I mean this more towards vets who have more than they know what to do with anyways.

Example........Rogue had an LFM up for Cursed Crypt the other day...and I really wanted my third upgrade on my talisman.....so I join......oh noooooos....newb from hell right...LOL.

I basically solo'ed it but he was stilla good player....listened great, and learned...probably died 5-6 times LOL...but oh wells.

But in the midst of this run I was hearing the critical hit thud all the time, and asked if he had a heavy fort item on, he said he needed to have something else on.

Whatever...it's his first time through, the game that is...after we finish I ask him if he has a Minos yet....he says no......I hop on my capped Sorc who has like 100 Taps just sitting around doing nothing and get him one....of course asking him to put it on to make sure he didn't just grab my tokens and run LOL.

He did and was all happy about it.....getting the helmet I mean...no he didn't take off with the tokens I gave him for the AH lol......or maybe he did and had a MINOS already LMAO...either way it made me feel better :D

P.S. that kind of run tho is why I don't use voice chat.....when I type I am really nice.......I sure as heck was not being nice about what a was saying out loud to myself while I was doing that run tho...HAHAHAHA

Flavilandile
10-23-2011, 12:16 PM
Not entering the debate...

But with a 342 ( unbuffed ) hit points rogue you can live and thrive quite well in epics...
Up to and including epic DQ and Epic VON 6. I'm doing that all the time. ( that's actually my main epic character )

Gorbadoc
10-23-2011, 12:22 PM
I quoted you saying "It's the MAXIMUM possible HP for a well geared out sorc, like yours." I simply put it that that was far from the fact. You weren't talking about a new player in the line i quoted you.

I know, I shouldn't feed the troll. Blah. This one is just too funny.

Suppose I write, "This post is about chicken pot pies. Cooking times vary greatly." By Sweyn's thinking, I'm not talking about chicken pot pies with that second sentence. I could be talking about ANYTHING! Maybe I'm saying that pizza cooking times vary greatly. Because, ya know, the words that came before a sentence don't matter!


Back to the OP, I'll /sign if people are obnoxious about hit points six months from now. So far, though, I haven't had too much trouble. On Ghallanda at least, I think a lot of people already understand that hit points, while important, are not a definitive indicator of player ability.

herzkos
10-23-2011, 12:25 PM
The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

lmao. 16 base con on a Drow sorc is pretty unordinary mate.
And on a first life sorc, how long did you have to run at level 20 to get there?
litany not extraordinary? pshaw. oh plus your exceptional +3 con item.
thats minus 4 con to your total. Then go ahead and remove your 45 from
GS because on a first life character you're not going to get it til well after you're level
20(unless you hold off on leveling or specifically farm shroud and only shroud).

please mate, be realistic for the average player.

Drekisen
10-23-2011, 12:26 PM
Not entering the debate...

But with a 342 ( unbuffed ) hit points rogue you can live and thrive quite well in epics...
Up to and including epic DQ and Epic VON 6. I'm doing that all the time. ( that's actually my main epic character )

Wrong wrong wrong....that is just not enough HP...rouges should have a bare minimum 500 HP unbuffed for Epics.....


NAH....just kidding...trying to get you into the debate :D

Notice how I spelled rouge incorrectly too...I did that on purpose ;)

Xenostrata
10-23-2011, 12:29 PM
UMADBRO?

Lol in my rebuttal i said "Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable." So i'm not counting +4 tomes, i'm not counting PL, and i'm not counting ship buffs. I'm not gonna get into a discussion on what's the ideal gear slots for a sorc, whatever floats your boat man.

I put +4 tomes there as an example, and admitted that I had forgotten the yugo con potion.

Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid :rolleyes:

gloopygloop
10-23-2011, 01:12 PM
I put +4 tomes there as an example, and admitted that I had forgotten the yugo con potion.

Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid :rolleyes:

Except for the Litany and the 16 Con instead of 14, what did his multiple TR's give him that a first life character couldn't reasonably get?

Yugo pots aren't insanely hard to get to - even a fairly weak Sorcerer can still semi-pike its way through Amrath quests as a buff-bot, passing out Displacement and Haste and flinging Heal scrolls at party members. At the end of the quest, those DoTs work very nicely against the end boss. Obviously, that character isn't going to be soloing Amrath on Elite, but that's what party members are for.

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 01:27 PM
lmao. 16 base con on a Drow sorc is pretty unordinary mate.
And on a first life sorc, how long did you have to run at level 20 to get there?
litany not extraordinary? pshaw. oh plus your exceptional +3 con item.
thats minus 4 con to your total. Then go ahead and remove your 45 from
GS because on a first life character you're not going to get it til well after you're level
20(unless you hold off on leveling or specifically farm shroud and only shroud).

please mate, be realistic for the average player.

Please note that no where in that post did i mention that's the HP breakdown for a new player. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 01:29 PM
I know, I shouldn't feed the troll. Blah. This one is just too funny.

Suppose I write, "This post is about chicken pot pies. Cooking times vary greatly." By Sweyn's thinking, I'm not talking about chicken pot pies with that second sentence. I could be talking about ANYTHING! Maybe I'm saying that pizza cooking times vary greatly. Because, ya know, the words that came before a sentence don't matter!

The difference between your example and my quote is that you mentioned chicken pot pies prior to cooking times. Therefore, it's inferred you are talking about the pies when you mention cooking time. However, Xen said nothing about new players in the first paragraph, which is also where he said it's the maximum possible HP for a sorc. See the difference? No? Oh well, i tried...

-Sweyn

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 01:41 PM
Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure i never compared a geared out TR sorc to a new player. In fact, the only thing i said in this thread about new players is that it shouldn't be hard to achieve 300+ HP. It's funny how everyone is getting their panties twisted up and flaming me for "My comparison of new players," when in fact i was never talking about them at all. The only reason i posted was to show you through a HP breakdown that your quoted "~400 HP" was not the max HP for a drow sorc (without putting level ups into con etc..). It's everyone else in this thread that is jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth that i had nothing to do with.

I guess it just boils down to a lack of reading comprehension

herzkos
10-23-2011, 01:54 PM
Please note that no where in that post did i mention that's the HP breakdown for a new player. Stop jumping to conclusions.

if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.

hmmm, something about the above statement doesn't seem right to me, but meh i'm
probably jumping to conclusions if I go any further.

Delssar
10-23-2011, 02:21 PM
keep the hp in the bar, I like showing off my fighters hp (279 @ level 8){28 point build} and seeing what others hp is like when Im on my more hp gimpy toons. Its nice to compair

~Cavalier9999
10-23-2011, 02:30 PM
/not signed

I wouldn't kick anyone for lack of hp. Well, maybe in extreme cases, but almost never. However, when on my divine, I like to know if there is someone that may need extra attention. Also, it helps to conserve spell points. A 600 hp fighter at 50% can probably take another hit or three before I throw a heal. A 350 hp fighter at 50% will need it sooner.

Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything

Vellrad
10-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything

There are couple abilities restoring spell points in game.

gloopygloop
10-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything


I like it. I have a fairly well geared Wizard and a fairly well geared FvS, but I've seen a few FvS with around 600 more SP than my FvS normally carries and a few Wizards with around 300 more SP than my Wizard usually carries. It inspired me to go look around for more sources of SP.

That's a good thing. That's exactly what I had hoped would happen for people when HP became visible, except that it happened to me - something that I didn't really expect.

Sweyn
10-23-2011, 02:55 PM
if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.


I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

cpito
10-23-2011, 03:38 PM
if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.

hmmm, something about the above statement doesn't seem right to me, but meh i'm
probably jumping to conclusions if I go any further.

Only if by "everyone" you mean the few players involved in this thread. Personally I thought Sweyn was doing a good job handling it on his own but if you need second party validation for what he claims, consider him validated.

cpito
10-23-2011, 03:40 PM
at the very least entertaining if they can actually stay alive and humorous if they can't:p

That's only if they themselves can be humorous about it ;)

Xenostrata
10-23-2011, 03:44 PM
I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

That's not the problem. The problem is that you then used those numbers to argue against the part that did explicitly target HP on new players.

I'll admit that I forgot Yugo potions when judging what is reasonably accessible after some farming at 20. However, using multiple past lives, and debatable gear choices (trading archmagi, SP9, and 25 epic tokens+5 raid tokens does not seem like a good deal for 6 AP and 20 HP) to try to prove one half of what I said wrong while completely ignoring the whole point of the post was silly. It doesn't matter in what order I put my paragraphs, that's called artistic license :P

The point of the first post was to show how dificult it can be for new players to reach 300+ hp, not to argue over what the theoretical max possible HP on a drow sorc could be. If it was, I would've included barb past lives, +4 con tome, and a +7 con item.

Edit: I would also point out that not only does Wyllywyl have the Litany, he also has the tokens and the slot for the +1 exc con. However, I made him CG at character creation (One of my first toons, and wanted to mirror my PnP alignment choices). Even if I was TN, I would still not use the Litany. However, I intend to grab some Wizard lives then hop back to sorcerer, and if my final life is human (can't decide between human and WF) then I'll eat my +4 cha tome and wear the litany.

Drekisen
10-23-2011, 03:46 PM
I know this may be straying from the OP topic a little and I am sorry for the derail but....come on!!! this is supposed to be fun....having the 150HP squish in the level 20 epic or raid makes things....interesting :D at the very least entertaining if they can actually stay alive and humorous if they can't:p

gloopygloop
10-23-2011, 04:42 PM
The point of the first post was to show how dificult it can be for new players to reach 300+ hp, not to argue over what the theoretical max possible HP on a drow sorc could be. If it was, I would've included barb past lives, +4 con tome, and a +7 con item.

I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

herzkos
10-23-2011, 06:41 PM
I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

now that is a fair assessment of what can reasonably be expected of a new character.

Xenostrata
10-23-2011, 08:47 PM
I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

I mostly agree with that analysis, but I can remember a lot about what it was like playing near and at endgame with little experience. When I found a +2 tome of any type, I would prefer to sell it over using it, even con or cha since my plat was usually in the 100k-150k range and the idea of more than doubling it off of a single item seemed way more awesome than +20 hp. For GS ingredients, I spent a while before crafting anything since it took a while to decide what to make and I wanted to get a feel for the Shroud first.

Also, note that since we are talking about casters, it is very likely that their first GS is an sp item, not an hp item. I know my first GS was triple pos sp goggles, and the hp item didn't come til much later since I grabbed a +3 tome on my first completion list instead of a cleanser (yeah, I know - stupid decision, but I was still new :P)

d1mitri
10-23-2011, 09:07 PM
Showing HP is pretty damn important in healing. I don't know how you guys did it before... but I come from games where I played A LOT of twitch healing for PvP and hp numbers help out a lot. Do you throw a small heal, or big one, fast one or slow one, do you cast more prot on target, what prots do you cast, etc.

I started a low level fvs and it helps a lot. I can decide to turn empower on or off, quicken on or off, what heal to use, etc. I can figure all these questions and take preventive actions before someone taking a big hit and dying because I miscalculated...

herzkos
10-23-2011, 09:17 PM
I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

did you read xeno's whole post? or like the OP was it

TL ; DR version?

I'll refresh your memory with a snipped version of it that doesn't include the part you already quoted.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?
/snip

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

i'm sure i already hit the tl;dr threshold but i'm pretty sure that this is the reason I (and some others) expect
anyone quoting him to put it in a new player perspective.
sure, we all know that sorcs can have 500+hps at end game and the grass is green and the sky is blue.
that all goes pretty much without saying.

wax_on_wax_off
10-23-2011, 09:40 PM
Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

This is the HP breakdown on my reasonably geared level 20 Drow Sorcerer, Wyllywyl:
14 base con
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exc con ToD ring
=24 con
80 base HD
20 Heroic Durability
140 Con Bonus
30 GFL
10 Argo favor
20 Minos
22 Toughness
20 toughness enhancements
45 GS
=387 base HP. Rage puts me barely over 400, and this is effectively the MAXIMUM possible hp, barring stupid ideas like putting level ups into Con instead of Cha or me ever finding a +4 tome (and, tbh, I'd rather sell the tome out of the chest for a stack of reds than take an extra 20 hp)

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

The catch here is that drow sorcerer is not a build that a new player should play as it takes exceptional gearing to get enough HP to survive current end game content.

I've been leveling a palemaster recently and as I'm fairly blaze about HP originally I planned on not taking toughness until level 12 (for vampire form).

However, 1 searing light in elite bloody crypt convinced me that I had to make some adjustments so I went and swapped in toughness and got another item or two and suddenly my HP jumped from 85 to 150 or something (at level 8). Certainly makes things a lot easier.

I've been pugging a little bit and often myDDO players that join my party in downtime if they have low HP and then give them some advice on fixing up their HP value. Particularly in the current state of the game where everyone wants to run hard/elite for bravery it is simply required that you invest in HP at all levels lest a spellcaster drop lightning bolt or another nuke on you and take you out in 1 hit (appropriate resists not withstanding).

I was quite happy yesterday to help a level 7 wizard more than double his HP and even passed on a shard so he could swap in toughness.

What AO said about the ease with which most builds can get over 400 HP is spot on. 14 base con (or 16+ on arcanes) + appropriate gears easily gets you over. If you want to play a drow arcane then avoid sorcerer until you have some PL's and gear and go palemaster instead (please!)

I sympathise with the OP. People will be judgemental but if he sticks to minimum 6 point investment into con (arcanes 10+), gets level appropriate gear (+6 con item, GFL and Minos for 20s at least) then no one will mind him and you can do that without sacrificing any DPS or efficiency.

Astraghal
10-24-2011, 03:38 AM
^this 100%

Add that they dont know how the game works. Instant insults without the slightest willingness to reconcile or make an agreement that we can all benefit from. ...

Story mode:
*Just yesterday the "mighty" wizard i have just previously grouped posts another lfm: "DPS needed" .
*Dumb me (Sorcerer): Alright, nice, another sweet epic run, lets do this.
*1 sec, insta decline.
*Sending tell: Why cannot i join ?
*Answer: The group agrees we need team players! You zerged ahead of us the last time.
*Dumb me: :O?
*Sending tell: explaining whys of my "zerging"
*Receiving: insults in forms of name calling/degradeing comments out of context, the usual kids stuff...
*Later figured: i zerged because i used wind dance thru the non combative areas of Partycrashers to save some boring walk. (I must be the worst team player for doing that).

I didnt want to further complicate things claiming that i basically saved them from a very likely wipe/another 10 minute mob beating. But effectively i did save them that much.

My ignore list is full, not like it matters since the game still lets you join to/accept ignored people into your group so youll end up meeting the same insults again and again...

Also most of them have 20 alts so you arent really saved by an ignore.

I actually find it a relief when I'm the last to join an Epic Partycrashers and find when I enter the group has already half finished. I expect it.

Caliban
10-24-2011, 04:20 AM
The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

gloopygloop
10-24-2011, 08:58 AM
...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Posts like his are OUTSTANDING at showing people what can be achieved if people put effort and resources into the desired outcome. Obviously, a first life Sorcerer isn't going to have many of those things as soon as he or she hits 20, but many of those are entirely reasonable sources of HP to look for on a first life. There are a fair number of sources of +1 exceptional Con and if you get a second ToD ring, there's not much better that you could put on it. Yugo pots are not unreasonable - put up an LFM for Elite amrath quests and just be willing to leave the quest and reenter for the completion if they party wipes or if you need to refill your blue bars at the tavern. A Greensteel HP item with Heavy Fort or Concordant Opposition is the item that will provide the most benefit for most casters as their first GS item.

Out of all of the things listed, the only ones that are unreasonable to strive for (in my opinion) are the Litany and the higher starting Con for a first life character. Everything else is moderately challenging at most. Obviously, people shouldn't (and don't) demand that level of HP from a 4 HP/level character, but knowing that you can break 500 HP on a Sorcerer might inspire some more Rangers and Paladins to get more than 400 HP on their characters and more Fighters to get more than 500 HP.

It really isn't that hard to get a reasonable number of HP for any character. Having some posts where an unreasonably large number of HP is shown with a breakdown of where those HP come from just provides an opportunity for people to see what *can* be done if a player chooses.

Sarisa
10-24-2011, 09:44 AM
I'm pretty understanding and accepting of new people, as long as they show a desire to improve their equipment and play. It's the people who sit at 220 HP, expect the world to cater to them, and have no interest or desire to raise that total that are the real problem.

There are not really a whole lot of places I have firm minimums.

Melees in Mass Heal environments need to be able to survive between Mass Heals. For a Rogue or monk, who has Improved Evasion, and good saves, against Harry or Garos another heavy casting boss, 300's plenty for a new player. 280's pushing it, but many will probably survive provided they don't roll too many 1's.

For a low reflex non-evasive class against the same boss, you're going to take a good deal more damage from the added spell damage, so naturally 300 isn't going to be enough to survive between Mass Heal's. 400's manageable, 450's good. The lower reflex classes who might be in melee range, aside from some Artificers and non-splashed Bards, are all ones who have at least a d8 per level, so it's not too hard to get that HP total even on a first life. You just may need to spend more AP on Racial and Class Toughness's than you would with better equipment.

For Epic Demon Queen, and Epic VoN6, due to the u11 raid changes, it's good to have 450+ HP if you're in melee range of Velah, and 400+ HP for anyone facing Lailat. That's mostly due to making sure you can live long enough to survive between the Mass Heals/Cures, to avoid having to have the healers drink Mnemonics. Someone with lower HP can run it, and survive, but you WILL cause more resource usage.

For many epics where Disintegrate is cast, you can get by with low HP but I prefer people with high enough HP that they can take a Disintegrate and live. That saves time, SP rebuffing, and dead people do no DPS. I've seen upwards of 450 damage from the caster wildmen in eADQ1, the Kobolds in eVoN1, and from Malicia in Big Top. It can be hard to reach that HP total on a first life, but it's good to work toward it.

As for the breakdowns, it's good to see what's available. It's better if they're marked with how difficult or time consuming it is to get each one, so that newer players (assuming they actually read the forums) can see and prioritize getting certain things.

Greater False Life belts drop fairly often, and there are often a few on the AH for reasonable prices. Rings are a bit rarer. Anyone can get one of these for even a small amount of farming for plat.

CON+6 items are also common drops, and there are often a few on the AH for reasonable prices. Again, rings are a bit rarer or more expensive. At higher levels, one of the CON+6/GFL belts from Amrath are well worth the time farming.

Toughness is currently only available on three non-epic items. I don't know if it's craftable yet. The Minos Legens, which is a great set consolidator because of it having Heavy Fort also, is the best of these due to the low level and the low amount of competition for that slot. Thaark Bracers, and the Quorforged Docent are your other choices. All three require pack purchases, but IQ and Necro 4 are both very good purchases for levelling and loot. For someone who reaches 20 with nothing but the Vale, they won't have access to Toughness, but hopefully they see it would be worth purchasing and running one of the Toughness item packs.

The Toughness feat is something almost anyone should have. For 1 feat and 3 AP, anyone can get 42 HP at cap. Some classes or races can of course get more. Only the most highly experienced and geared people can get away with not having Toughness (or the now equivalent Barb past life). Toughness enhancements, while they can be costly, are the easiest ways to boost your HP if your class/race supports them.

Argonesson Favour requires Gianthold (Reaver's Reach isn't enough), so it's rather tied to one pack. It is, however, a good but expensive pack, and excellent for levelling so it's a worthwhile purchase for most people.

A tier 2 Greensteel HP item is not terribly difficult and time consuming to get. To complete it to tier 3 is time consuming and costly to do, but tier 2 is not that bad. For someone who is still learning, and expresses a willingness to learn and build themselves, you may even be given small and medium ingredients to make your item. It's not +45 HP, but it'll still be +25 HP which is worthwhile.

Yugoloth potions are one of the more difficult items to get. It's best if someone can contribute, rather than have to be pulled through those quests. Due to pretty much requiring the ToD raid to be done on at least normal to get enough favour, you really need to be equipped decently well before. This is not something that is easily within reach to a fresh level 20.

Starting with at least 14 CON is strongly recommended to everyone. 16 CON is good if you can fit it in. A new 28-point build may not be able to do so, due to the tighter stat requirements, especially if going with a TWF build or a "MAD" class like Monk or Paladin. Overall, CON does help, but not quite to the same extent as some other items. It's still good to fit as much as you can, but remember that 28 point builds are way more strapped for stats than the rest of us are.

A +2 CON tome is useful for anyone who is planning on staying 20 for a while (say for raiding and acquiring equipment). This is available to anyone, but can be rather expensive for a new player. It's worth it when you can afford to buy one, or when you get 1,750 favour for the free BtC one in the Harbour. This is not something I expect every new player to have, but I feel they should be working for one either for their current life or to use on their TR.

R0cksteady
10-24-2011, 09:47 AM
I find it kind of funny that TC is a divine that only focuses on healing, yet somehow was a sought after cleric. But hey, some people like that I guess.

Either way, at level 20 if you have under 400 HP, no matter of race or class, you're just not building right. Sure you can survive if you're good enough, but why build that way? It's extremely simple to get half decent hitpoints in this game with toughness feat and basic gear (+6 con item, +2 tome, GFL, Minos).

Especially when you build a toon so one dimensionally as a heal bot, plenty of room for con.

Hell, my cleric has NO epic gear, maxed healing ability, 39 DCs in Enchant and Necro, SOME melee ability and 500 HP. If you're not worrying about DCs, melee, or generally being useful outside of healing, how can you NOT have plenty of room for con and a toughness feat? Actually, you could probably take like 3 toughness feats and all the feats useful to healing.

taurean430
10-24-2011, 10:05 AM
...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Ruling out the inflammatory portions... It clearly states in his post that he started with 16 base con. I did the same on my wizzy. Furthermore, I'd say that it's not unreasonable to expect a minimum investment ( 14 or better con, GFL, +6 con, +2 con tome) out of a new character wanting to set foot in raids. Particularly ones with high amounts of area of effect damage.

I cited EVon6 as an example. Post recent changes, I'd been asked to effectively tolerate a low hp toon when I am on my healing toons. It's always the same, they die multiple times and try to blame me for not giving them 'special attention' However, I know that either of my toons can heal in the current state of that raid and keep the party good until the dragon is between 25-30% health. The other one or two designated party healers are in reserve spot healing with scrolls until then. Paying 'special attention' to players who do this force me to drink mana potions or go on without them. I choose the latter of the options, though I have been known to send true resurrections when I have the time.

Only seen one exception to this so far. And that guy's ability to avoid AOE damage is something I've not seen since. One exception in who knows how many runs is not free license to bring toons like that into an epic. At least, that's been my observation.

Gorbadoc
10-24-2011, 10:17 AM
Posts like his are OUTSTANDING at showing people what can be achieved if people put effort and resources into the desired outcome.

Some of the posts in this thread are talking at cross-purposes. Two different reasons for playing the game are being discussed:
The fun of gearing an awesome build.
The fun of running quests.
If you play for the first reason, then you'll benefit from the lists that include Yugoloth potions, Minos Legens and Tier2 Greensteel-- they take dedication to obtain, but if you enjoy an occasional weekend of research and grinding, you can get them.

If you play for the second reason, then you'll benefit from the explanations of how to get decent hit points with only a +6 Con item and Greater False life. You'll also benefit from an explanation of what to watch for-- e.g. if you enjoy the quest Blown to Bits, you should make a point of running it often until you pull an Alchemist's Pendant (http://ddowiki.com/page/Alchemist's_Pendant).

TLDR; One recurring dispute in this thread won't be resolved by arguing.

GentlemanAndAScholar
10-24-2011, 10:39 AM
It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.


To me, it's not even about "perfect" groups at all. To me is about basic, elementary build priorities. If I'm running anything epic/end-game elite, I ask for 450HP (even healers and casters). I get a flurry of hate /tells which I happily ignore. If you don't like my rules, start your own group or join a different group. It's that simple. But blind pugging, I'm a very, very HP picky leader. I rather go shortmanned than spending resources on the 300HP capped Arti getting whacked every time they draw aggro. In OP's case, if he was on my friend's list he gets the spot regardless of HP.

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 10:56 AM
What AO said about the ease with which most builds can get over 400 HP is spot on. 14 base con (or 16+ on arcanes) + appropriate gears easily gets you over.

No, it takes exceptional gear to get you over 400 for arcanes. It's not easy... You need exceptional CON items, you need a 45 hp GS item, and you need a +2 tome...

300 or so is perfectly reasonable for a new caster... and 400 is NOT easily accomplished. It's a good goal, but it takes some serious work.

cpito
10-24-2011, 11:02 AM
Showing HP is pretty damn important in healing. I don't know how you guys did it before... but I come from games where I played A LOT of twitch healing for PvP and hp numbers help out a lot. Do you throw a small heal, or big one, fast one or slow one, do you cast more prot on target, what prots do you cast, etc.

I started a low level fvs and it helps a lot. I can decide to turn empower on or off, quicken on or off, what heal to use, etc. I can figure all these questions and take preventive actions before someone taking a big hit and dying because I miscalculated...

I made my snarky response earlier but I also want to agree with this. It does make healing decisions much easier. Last week I joined a shroud pug on my cleric. With 11 spots filled and only one healer, she had the most hp in the group with around 450. I didn't have an issue with it but I knew it would be a run that would be difficult to solo heal so I didn't speak up when the LFM went for another healer. Within minutes a fvs joined us and thier first comment after "hello" was "wow, I have the most hp in this group!" We ran the quest and completed with little issue. Yes, some of the squishier toons died but it didn't come as any sort of surprize. It was very nice going into the quest better prepared for what was to come and a better time was had by everyone for it.

MysteryNotes
10-24-2011, 11:16 AM
No, it takes exceptional gear to get you over 400 for arcanes. It's not easy... You need exceptional CON items, you need a 45 hp GS item, and you need a +2 tome...

300 or so is perfectly reasonable for a new caster... and 400 is NOT easily accomplished. It's a good goal, but it takes some serious work.

400 hard? Not really.

First life 32 point build Level 20 Human Wizard.(Assuming 16 starting CON)
If going human, would naturally assume Pale Master for ease of self healing.
CON:
16 Base
6 Item
2 Tome
1 Human Enhancement
1 Exceptional (Sustaining symbiote - Not hard to get)
4 CON Lich Form
_
30 CON. = 10 MOD = +200 hp

80 Base
20 Heroic
22 Toughness
30 Toughness Enhancements(3rd unlocked when taking human CON)
20 Minos
30 GFL
20 Alchemist's Pendant
200 CON Mod(Lich form included)
20 Pale Master 3 enhancements
_
442

Throw in rage spell, you get 462. Ship +2 CON, 482.

Not hard to break 400 at all.

Could easily have gotten Pirate Hat for +10 more hp with Superior False Life for 492.

Should at least get a shroud item before heading into epics. But alchemist's pendant is easy enough to get.

*Edit*
As you can see, the listed items for bonus HP aren't hard to get. So 'exceptional' gear is hardly required to break 400.

Sweyn
10-24-2011, 11:23 AM
...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Please read the thread and at least some of the posts so you get an idea of what's going on before you start flaming the first post you see.

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 11:58 AM
400 hard? Not really.

First life 32 point build Level 20 Human Wizard.(Assuming 16 starting CON)
If going human, would naturally assume Pale Master for ease of self healing.
CON:
16 Base
6 Item
2 Tome
1 Human Enhancement
1 Exceptional (Sustaining symbiote - Not hard to get)
4 CON Lich Form
_
30 CON. = 10 MOD = +200 hp

80 Base
20 Heroic
22 Toughness
30 Toughness Enhancements(3rd unlocked when taking human CON)
20 Minos
30 GFL
20 Alchemist's Pendant
200 CON Mod(Lich form included)
20 Pale Master 3 enhancements
_
442

Throw in rage spell, you get 462. Ship +2 CON, 482.

Not hard to break 400 at all.

Could easily have gotten Pirate Hat for +10 more hp with Superior False Life for 492.

Should at least get a shroud item before heading into epics. But alchemist's pendant is easy enough to get.

*Edit*
As you can see, the listed items for bonus HP aren't hard to get. So 'exceptional' gear is hardly required to break 400.

If you're a human palemaster, sure... Minus 90 hps if you're any other type of arcane... Whoops... back below 400...

MysteryNotes
10-24-2011, 12:01 PM
If you're a human palemaster, sure... Minus 90 hps if you're any other type of arcane... Whoops... back below 400...

Actually, pale master only yields +60 hp. Not sure where you're getting the extra 30 from.

So it would still be at 402. With shipbuffs, 422.

morticianjohn
10-24-2011, 12:09 PM
I find it kind of funny that TC is a divine that only focuses on healing, yet somehow was a sought after cleric. But hey, some people like that I guess.

Either way, at level 20 if you have under 400 HP, no matter of race or class, you're just not building right. Sure you can survive if you're good enough, but why build that way? It's extremely simple to get half decent hitpoints in this game with toughness feat and basic gear (+6 con item, +2 tome, GFL, Minos).

Especially when you build a toon so one dimensionally as a heal bot, plenty of room for con.

Hell, my cleric has NO epic gear, maxed healing ability, 39 DCs in Enchant and Necro, SOME melee ability and 500 HP. If you're not worrying about DCs, melee, or generally being useful outside of healing, how can you NOT have plenty of room for con and a toughness feat? Actually, you could probably take like 3 toughness feats and all the feats useful to healing.

Anyone willing to heal is highly sought after by the barb who wishes to upgrade his hireling. Even a 300 HP cleric with no offensive casting ability or evasion is an upgrade over wyoh and heystack.

Dysmetria
10-24-2011, 12:14 PM
I really don't understand the issue here. If you do not like groups placing minimum hit point requirements on their fellow members or cannot live up to those requirements, simply join ones that do not do so or make your own instead.

Vanquishedfo
10-24-2011, 12:24 PM
imo the best middle ground would be to change it to a % meter that way say youra cleric with a rule keep everyone up to 50% after that its on them to top off etc its easy to see when they need it. A single 100%-0% would take up less then the 1000/1000 we get on some extreme HP builds.

However I say take the nerfbat out and just kill HP. when you even begin to get a hint of players doing the need xxx hp for thos content you have bad content that needs tweaking. IF part of the issue is HP find a way to hurt big hp players worse then low ones with attacks that are based on max hp totals.

If part of the issue is that players can CHOOSE to have low hp builds but content cant be balanced for them and extreme HP builds then its the extreme that has to be nerfed down to non existance. for example a Hard HP cap of 400. no one can ever go over that then for some classes like barb con could be more of a dump stat and that would be great since then they could be more well rounde characters like all should have to be to keep real balance.

Voxreal
10-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Their is one thing people with high HP standards forget not all people have been playing as long as they have(without HP being showen) so in their learning days it was skill not HP numbers that got them in, now new players are gimp...? because they have this showen and have not had the blanket of not having this showen and being able to get in a group to get the gear needed to get that HP.

So what I am saying is how can you demand a new or old player who is not a dedicated player or one who took a brake to get in these groups if they have not been able to get the gear yet. Most people who kick a good player with skill will come up short after that player gets the gear and has the total the leader wants will decline after being treated with no respect the first time. I for one am willing to forgo a little HP if the player is skilled and knows how to do more the HP soak damage for the healer to take care of.

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 01:10 PM
Actually, pale master only yields +60 hp. Not sure where you're getting the extra 30 from.

So it would still be at 402. With shipbuffs, 422.

Human palemaster...

palemaster gets you 60

Human gets you 30 (+1 enhancement gets you to an even CON, losing it drops you 20, plus 10 for the third toughness enhancement - which is expensive, by the way)

So you picked the perfect arcane to "prove" your point...

I especially love the guys who say "Drow sorc or drow wiz? Stupid noob should know he's not good enough to play that character! What kind of idiot notices that drows can have a higher casting stat than any other race, and still picks it?!!? Stupid noob should have known that the CON penalty is what's really important!"

d1mitri
10-24-2011, 01:15 PM
imo the best middle ground would be to change it to a % meter that way say youra cleric with a rule keep everyone up to 50% after that its on them to top off etc its easy to see when they need it. A single 100%-0% would take up less then the 1000/1000 we get on some extreme HP builds.

However I say take the nerfbat out and just kill HP. when you even begin to get a hint of players doing the need xxx hp for thos content you have bad content that needs tweaking. IF part of the issue is HP find a way to hurt big hp players worse then low ones with attacks that are based on max hp totals.

If part of the issue is that players can CHOOSE to have low hp builds but content cant be balanced for them and extreme HP builds then its the extreme that has to be nerfed down to non existance. for example a Hard HP cap of 400. no one can ever go over that then for some classes like barb con could be more of a dump stat and that would be great since then they could be more well rounde characters like all should have to be to keep real balance.
Percentage is same as nothing. I was recently doing lowbie elite streaks and needed to keep many players above 95% or they'd die in one hit from any boss. Good thing for hp numbers, since without it, I would have no luck figuring out they have such a low hp until after a few deaths. ^^



As for hp cap. Why not just make all builds predefined then? And everyone have same AC and HP. It will be balanced then... /sarcasm off

taurean430
10-24-2011, 01:19 PM
Hmmm, let's put it this way perhaps.

A 300 hp toon runs up to Velah with the rest of the melee group. Velah swings the first time; the melee group takes roughly 20% off of their red bars. Except for the low hp toon, who is at less than a third total life. Velah swings again; the melee group loses another 20%. Low hp toon dies. Velah swings again; melee group takes another 20% roughly. I begin to cast Mass Heal...

A toon with a hp total that low has no business in front of the dragon as it stands now. Yet I see people trying whenever I get into the mood to join a pug, or am asked to help out by an in game friend. Total contribution of that toon to the group = less than zero. Negative in fact because of the cost associated with with trying to spam heal them to no avail and frequent resing. That uber dps they believe they have is a non factor. Because you can't dps while dead.

Vellrad
10-24-2011, 01:21 PM
Human palemaster...

palemaster gets you 60

Human gets you 30 (+1 enhancement gets you to an even CON, losing it drops you 20, plus 10 for the third toughness enhancement - which is expensive, by the way)

So you picked the perfect arcane to "prove" your point...

Well dwarf gives even more...


I especially love the guys who say "Drow sorc or drow wiz? Stupid noob should know he's not good enough to play that character! What kind of idiot notices that drows can have a higher casting stat than any other race, and still picks it?!!? Stupid noob should have known that the CON penalty is what's really important!"
[/quote]
I lol at this people.

Battlehawke
10-24-2011, 03:09 PM
I personally would not boot a player for having too few HP, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to keep them up anymore. If you want to waste someones resources, waste your own and build a self healer with low HP.

Xenostrata
10-24-2011, 03:16 PM
Hmmm, let's put it this way perhaps.

A 300 hp toon runs up to Velah with the rest of the melee group. Velah swings the first time; the melee group takes roughly 20% off of their red bars. Except for the low hp toon, who is at less than a third total life. Velah swings again; the melee group loses another 20%. Low hp toon dies. Velah swings again; melee group takes another 20% roughly. I begin to cast Mass Heal...

A toon with a hp total that low has no business in front of the dragon as it stands now. Yet I see people trying whenever I get into the mood to join a pug, or am asked to help out by an in game friend. Total contribution of that toon to the group = less than zero. Negative in fact because of the cost associated with with trying to spam heal them to no avail and frequent resing. That uber dps they believe they have is a non factor. Because you can't dps while dead.

I have no problem with you screening your eVelah melees for hp. It's when you use the same numbers for casters, or when screening normal shroud and other non-challenges.

MysteryNotes
10-24-2011, 03:34 PM
Human palemaster...

palemaster gets you 60

Human gets you 30 (+1 enhancement gets you to an even CON, losing it drops you 20, plus 10 for the third toughness enhancement - which is expensive, by the way)

So you picked the perfect arcane to "prove" your point...

I especially love the guys who say "Drow sorc or drow wiz? Stupid noob should know he's not good enough to play that character! What kind of idiot notices that drows can have a higher casting stat than any other race, and still picks it?!!? Stupid noob should have known that the CON penalty is what's really important!"

'Perfect' is open to debate.
I've never kicked anyone from a group for having too little hp.
Of the many groups i've been in, i've only seen 1 person get kicked for having too little HP. That was a 267 hp level 20 wizard.

Drow sorc? Wouldnt be surprised that he would have below 400 hp.
Either way..drow sorc wouldnt need *too* much gear to hit 400 hp anyway.
First life drow sorc:
CON Score
14 Base
2 Tome
6 Item
2 tome
_
24 CON - 7 mod(140 hp)

80 Base
160 CON
20 Heroic Durability
20 Toughness
22 Toughness Feat
20 Toughness Enhancements
30 Greater False Life
20 Alchemist's pend
20 Rage
10 Stalwart trinket
_
382

Throw in a tier 2 greensteel item and he's past 400. Tier 2 greensteel is not hard to get.
The sorc could also make the GS item into t3 for Con opp, +25 hp, +100 sp
Or he could run TOD a few times; get a random ring and pop +2 con on it.

Either way, i was simply replying to your post that claimed that arcanes needed 'exceptional gear' to break 400.
Well built arcanes can easily do that.
Sure, not all can. But most of them can.
As for wizards...i've only seen one or 2 non wf archmages running around. They all can UMD heal scrolls.
When i see a fleshy wizard running around; 90% of the time it seems, its a pale master.

As for the last bit of your post..i'm not sure what you're babbling about..Never seen anyone say that about a drow..maybe its a problem with your server?

GentlemanAndAScholar
10-24-2011, 03:44 PM
I especially love the guys who say "Drow sorc or drow wiz? Stupid noob should know he's not good enough to play that character! What kind of idiot notices that drows can have a higher casting stat than any other race, and still picks it?!!? Stupid noob should have known that the CON penalty is what's really important!"

I don't see them as "Stupid Noobs" or any of the sort. I see them as a liability to the party, especially when talking about epic and end-game content. A WF Enchanter Wiz, can handle CC of LoB, EDA, MA, can self-heal and generally speaking have at least 40 HP more than their drow counterparts. I don't care Drow can reach +3-4 more DC than a WF. In those tough quests I want self-reliance and toughness even when the best of healers is on board. DCs have diminishing returns, HP and self-healing do not. Once caster reach 41-43 DC, every extra DC thereafter is mere convenience. Every 20 HP after 400 adds to the survivability of the toon.

countfitz
10-24-2011, 03:45 PM
/not signed

So, last night, Shroud run. 200 hp ranger, speaks up, says it's his first time. With 200 hps, we all kind of know that already. You know what we did? We griefed him the entire time.

That's right! THE ENTIRE TIME! As in, we let him pike through his first Shroud! Because we rock on Thelanis. Yeah, we griefed him, but seriously, you should have seen his deaths. They were EPIC! Part 2, Dead on arrival. Part 3, dies in blades. Part 4, everyone at full health. Ari comes down. Our 200 HP ranger is dead. All Ari did was fall from the sky. Part 5 we don't even raise him, cause why waste the blue?

And that's why this is a helpful tool. FOR HIM! He can see why he sucks. He can see that every other toon has, from Rogue to Wizard to Sorc, 400+ HP, and can make it in a normal Shroud run. Before this he would be another noob blaming the healer.

Also, it stops the "blame the healer" mentality from before U11. The entire group knows when it is NOT the healers fault, (or when it is!) As a healer (all three capped toons and my main TR) I very much want this to stay.

Also, it does NOT take away DPS, or healing, or trap skills, to have a bare minimum 400 hps by cap. Minos, which you need for Fort anyway, +6 con and greater false life, from a belt in Amarath (I've never had to even farm for this, they drop almost every run), and a green steel item with a raise clicky, which you need anyway, because EVERYONE should carry a raise clicky (just failed a HoX last week when, MY FAULT, my healer and the other healer both got bees and died in like 2 seconds, and nobody could raise us) alone is 110 HPs. So, unless you dumped Con, once again something nobody should be allowed to do, 400 HPs is standard. That's 3 slots, of which you need to have 2 filled with those items anyway.

Now, the "Con is not a dump stat" discussion. Assume ranger, 28 point build. With no care about HP, I'm assuming ranged. Which, btw, seriously? But anyway. Ranged. Dump int, enough skill points anyway. Dump Charisma, it's useless on a ranger no matter what. Dump Wisdom, a +6 item gives you access to all ranger spells. So, that leaves 3 stats to distribute 28 points. Assume Elf, because you went ranger focused on range (again, this is for sake of argument). Thats 17 strength, 18 dex, and 12 con. And that's pretty much dumping Con. That still gives you an extra 20 hps. How is it that you're not hitting 400, let alone at 200?

Now the "Toughness" discussion. All toons need to take toughness, most at first level, all by 6th. It's just too important, deal with it.

Finally, to the OP, these are all assumptions, based on the ranger I played with last night. And I know what assumptions make.

I guess I should have asked, "What is your HP?" Because if it is past the 400 mark, then people need to ****. Especially for a healbot or ranged ranger. So, what is your HP?

Cyr
10-24-2011, 03:48 PM
So you picked the perfect arcane to "prove" your point...


a) No it's not the perfect one to prove the point. The perfect one would be a warforged PM with lots of toughness feats.

b) It is foolish to think that any build should be equally accessible to all players no matter how long they have played the game. It was never true in DDO. Certain builds were very hard to build and gear compared to others throughout it's history. With the current end game if new players want to actually contribute they will be restricted from not having their first toon being a build which naturally has very low hit points even with top gear. That is just plain how it is. So a new player can roll up a glass cannon drow caster with 10 con and be all happy when they are not one shotted in normal level 19 content, but they do not have some divine right that the same build is going to work well for them in certain epics. Add that together with the fact that new players make more mistakes then when they are experienced players and HP are a great way to buffer for these mistakes there are lots of reasons go big on HP.

Phemt81
10-24-2011, 03:52 PM
Checkbox:

Show dragonmark on self -

Show hitpoints on party UI -

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 03:56 PM
nm

kilagan800
10-24-2011, 04:25 PM
I feel for the OP. I used to enjoy playing a cleric, but quit because of the misery that accompanies it. I would get a lot of praises for my healing, but every so often I'll run into a jerk or jerks who feel that I should be their personal heal bot, and if it took me an extra second longer to heal them then they'd start shouting over their mics. So I quit playing clerics and went back to air savants and necros. DDO is so much enjoyable now without the constant crying and shouting and freaking out. I quit playing clerics on the belief that most ddo players aren't quite ready for human healers. But I guess I'm just bitter.

Vanquishedfo
10-24-2011, 09:43 PM
LOL at everyone who tries to argue against me and actually only makes my point stronger. any content where a HP requirement exist is simply put BAD content, poorly designed and in desperate need of change. AC and avoiding being hit should always be the bigger goal for players warrior and caster alike. The idea of dmg being a certainty in any given big of design is so wowtard esque it shames the game which in so many areas is great and honors D&D well.

Doesnt matter though DDO is DEAD in 2014 period and no amount of subs or profit can change the fact WOTC is dropping turbine in favor of cryptic and thier new flagship MMO in the works Never Winter Nights Online using 4E rules and being released the same year DDO is up for renewel. Odds of WOTC not being bound in contract with cryptic to not renew DDO are slim to none. Everyone has learned from the story of pepsi and coke by now.

So ***** and moan all you want its just a ride down with nothing mattering anymore.

Xenostrata
10-24-2011, 09:50 PM
I feel for the OP. I used to enjoy playing a cleric, but quit because of the misery that accompanies it. I would get a lot of praises for my healing, but every so often I'll run into a jerk or jerks who feel that I should be their personal heal bot, and if it took me an extra second longer to heal them then they'd start shouting over their mics. So I quit playing clerics and went back to air savants and necros. DDO is so much enjoyable now without the constant crying and shouting and freaking out. I quit playing clerics on the belief that most ddo players aren't quite ready for human healers. But I guess I'm just bitter.

I've rolled up a cleric for one purpose only - because it's so much funnier when the healer is the one casting Dance on you when you are trying to escape Velah's breath.

Oh, and so I can give my gimped WF pally company at endgame as I TR wyl. Not being able to run anything even remotely challenging would suck almost as bad as a paladin.

Galeria
10-24-2011, 09:55 PM
Well, I'm not a fan of the hitpoints showing.

I find that I am taking HP over other damage/defense enhancements/slots even though I've been successful without them in the past. Because people mention it if any character is below 400 hp at level 20.

I will agree that it points out some obvious deficiencies in some players and probably has helped people to boost their HP to survivable levels but it's also impacted some characters who were just fine, contributed and didn't die even with < 400 hp.

That being my personal point of view, I have no hopes that it will be reversed now that the genie is out of the bottle.

We can only hope since the devs find HP to be so critical that they will take a look at greater reincarnating a lot of the hirelings to focus on this all-important stat. It's not like they are using their enhancements for things like radiant aura or maximize...

Jay203
10-24-2011, 11:02 PM
i like the new HP display :)
makes the elitist high hp ppl look that much dumber when they die and i live :D:D:D

cpito
10-25-2011, 12:14 AM
And that's why this is a helpful tool. FOR HIM! He can see why he sucks.

I agree except for one thing. Since it was his first shroud run, I think it would be far better to view it as he can see why he needs to learn. Being inexperienced should never equal sucking.

Vyrn
10-25-2011, 06:01 AM
...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. :rolleyes:

My first lifer has all of those things. Blame the TRs who feel that their char whos been at cap for about 10minutes is ready for a TR and feel theyre uber.



i like the new HP display :)
makes the elitist high hp ppl look that much dumber when they die and i live :D:D:D

High HP automatically equals elitist? Since when? Whats 'high HP' to you anyway, anything over 200?

Jay203
10-25-2011, 08:44 PM
High HP automatically equals elitist? Since when? Whats 'high HP' to you anyway, anything over 200?

where did i say high hp automatically = elitist? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Caliban
10-26-2011, 12:45 AM
My first lifer has all of those things. Blame the TRs who feel that their char whos been at cap for about 10minutes is ready for a TR and feel theyre uber.



So you agree with me then, thank you.

It took you time to get that stuff, it wasn't just instantly available as soon as you hit the appropriate level.

gloopygloop
10-26-2011, 07:12 AM
So you agree with me then, thank you.

It took you time to get that stuff, it wasn't just instantly available as soon as you hit the appropriate level.

Not everything is available as soon as you hit the appropriate ML, but there's plenty available before you hit 20 *if you choose to get it*.

Seriously.

+6 Con/GFL - one trip through a couple of the Amrath quests for a belt or
+2 Con tome - available on the AH for a price that you can afford after just 2 or 3 Shrouds (or 1 if you happen to get a Large Scale).
Minos Legens - get one
Starting HP - not much you can do about that after level 1, but if you happened to stumble upon the forums, you might have noticed an occasional note that Con is not a dump stat and rerolled before you hit level 6. If you didn't see the forums at all until you were "too high to reroll" for your first character, then there's a good chance that you'll end up wanting to reroll once you hit 20 anyway. :)
Alchemist's Pendant - drops like candy

Unless it's your first character in DDO, you should have *plenty* of money to get a reasonable number of HP and even if it is your first character in DDO, there are a fair number of people who are willing to drag your low HP behind through a couple of quests to help you get your gear up to a moderately reasonable state.

Instead of whining about people rejecting them from raids for having an embarassing number of hit points (i.e. less than 300 on ANY character at level 20), just GO GET MORE HP.

Vyrn
10-26-2011, 02:20 PM
So you agree with me then, thank you.

It took you time to get that stuff, it wasn't just instantly available as soon as you hit the appropriate level.

Hm.. less than 2 months. 2 months of pretty casual raiding actually, so no, not really that much time. Youre welcome to believe Im agreeing with you when its pretty obvious Im not though.

You specifically stated 3rd life in your post. Im not third life. No need to debate semantics, lets just look at what you said and see if Im agreeing with you, or if youre anything other than completely wrong.



where did i say high hp automatically = elitist? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And where did I say you said that? Asking a question != stating something.

Templarion
10-26-2011, 02:53 PM
It will take time and people will get used to different amount of hit points. I think the truth is a little bit different than the image of people.

I think players just need time to get used to this new feature.

Caliban
10-27-2011, 03:40 AM
Not everything is available as soon as you hit the appropriate ML, but there's plenty available before you hit 20 *if you choose to get it*.

Seriously.

+6 Con/GFL - one trip through a couple of the Amrath quests for a belt or
+2 Con tome - available on the AH for a price that you can afford after just 2 or 3 Shrouds (or 1 if you happen to get a Large Scale).
Minos Legens - get one
Starting HP - not much you can do about that after level 1, but if you happened to stumble upon the forums, you might have noticed an occasional note that Con is not a dump stat and rerolled before you hit level 6. If you didn't see the forums at all until you were "too high to reroll" for your first character, then there's a good chance that you'll end up wanting to reroll once you hit 20 anyway. :)
Alchemist's Pendant - drops like candy

Unless it's your first character in DDO, you should have *plenty* of money to get a reasonable number of HP and even if it is your first character in DDO, there are a fair number of people who are willing to drag your low HP behind through a couple of quests to help you get your gear up to a moderately reasonable state.

Instead of whining about people rejecting them from raids for having an embarassing number of hit points (i.e. less than 300 on ANY character at level 20), just GO GET MORE HP.

Way to miss the point. I didn't mention any of those things in my post BECAUSE they are relatively easy to get.

Caliban
10-27-2011, 03:50 AM
Hm.. less than 2 months. 2 months of pretty casual raiding actually, so no, not really that much time. Youre welcome to believe Im agreeing with you when its pretty obvious Im not though.

You specifically stated 3rd life in your post. Im not third life. No need to debate semantics, lets just look at what you said and see if Im agreeing with you, or if youre anything other than completely wrong.

Gee, was the post where I mentioned 3rd life directed at you? It wasn't, was it? So why pretend it had anything to do with you?

Why are you hung up on that one point?

And sorry, but I have trouble believing you accumulated a lot of high end gear in "two months of casual raiding" unless you are already a veteran player (who already knows the most efficient ways to get the best items) or you are receiving aid from friends in game who can point you in the right direction.

Maybe you are just that good, but if you are then you still aren't a typical new player/first life character, which is what I was talking about in my post.

I'm not sure what your problem is, but you seem to be going out of your way to misinterpret what my original post was about. It wasn't directed at you, so I'm not sure why you are trying to take it so personally. But it really isn't personal. Trust me, I don't know you and I don't care enough to try and insult you. :)

Vyrn
10-27-2011, 02:12 PM
Gee, was the post where I mentioned 3rd life directed at you? It wasn't, was it? So why pretend it had anything to do with you?

Why are you hung up on that one point?

And sorry, but I have trouble believing you accumulated a lot of high end gear in "two months of casual raiding" unless you are already a veteran player (who already knows the most efficient ways to get the best items) or you are receiving aid from friends in game who can point you in the right direction.

Maybe you are just that good, but if you are then you still aren't a typical new player/first life character, which is what I was talking about in my post.

I'm not sure what your problem is, but you seem to be going out of your way to misinterpret what my original post was about. It wasn't directed at you, so I'm not sure why you are trying to take it so personally. But it really isn't personal. Trust me, I don't know you and I don't care enough to try and insult you. :)

It was directed at whoever disagreed with you really. And no, my clonk was my first 'real' character, was a pretty gimp str based battle cleric thing till I LRd it even.

In anycase, Im not insulting or attacking you, just stating my opinion :). Apologies if it seems like Im insulting you.

Sweyn
10-27-2011, 04:47 PM
Gee, was the post where I mentioned 3rd life directed at you? It wasn't, was it? So why pretend it had anything to do with you?

Why are you hung up on that one point?

e-Rage ftw