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CoasterHops
10-20-2011, 03:49 PM
Something needs to change with Sands Epics, wether it be the availability of scrolls or seals or shards for that matter...

Trading in 3 scrolls for a scroll of your choice though to me seems a little overboard, a better way I see of implementing a change like this is:

Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.
With an even chance of it being any of the other scrolls from that sands, wether it be Raid, Explorer or Quest.

Also update scroll drops so there is an even chance of any 1 scroll droppping being from the Raid, Explorer or Quests.

Also update shard drop rates in Sands quests end chests to include increased chances at explorer shards.

Also update many of the Epic Sands items as 80% of them are obsolete on most builds or just not good enough in regards to other easier obtainable items.

Gimpinator
10-20-2011, 04:11 PM
The fact that they haven't incorporated Epic Dungeon / Raids Tokens into this system is the dead giveaway that it's only preliminary and subject to change. You heard it here first, folks. :-)

Yokido
10-20-2011, 04:32 PM
I don't think it should be a random scroll at all personally,
it's long overdue for sands epics to be reliably worked towards
and attained..

Soon, I hope, they will either change the way
seals/shards work or increase the value of the items to justify
their rarity.

Fetchi
10-20-2011, 04:42 PM
Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.
With an even chance of it being any of the other scrolls from that sands, wether it be Raid, Explorer or Quest.



This doesn't do much to change the effect. May as well have a player turn in 3 for exactly what they want. Why are you going to **** off the player by adding another element of randomness to it? All you make them go do is log on their epic scroll farming caster and trade in 3 more scrolls till they get what they want.

CoasterHops
10-20-2011, 04:53 PM
Well i believe the element of randomness still allows for a little value for certain scrolls, just a trade in for whatever you like seems to me far to easy...

If they go along these lines they might as well implement it for every pack that has epic items, let us trade in all of those natt gann staff scrolls for abishai ones.

Yokido
10-20-2011, 08:49 PM
No, they're doing it for Sands because sands -needs- it, it has the highest amount of epic equipment in it.

You just don't want them to go through with it because you want to make money off of scroll farming,
shame on you.

CoasterHops
10-20-2011, 10:22 PM
I have made my money off scroll farming I wont deny that, in fact maybe i have 200 odd desert scrolls right about now of which only 3 are raid scrolls, so from what I can see I can benefit greatly from the update.

If this update goes live I can tell you theres is at least another 6 or 7 epic items I will be able to make purely because i have the base, seal and shard and this includes an epic marilith chain.

Essentially the update would most likely be a win for me, I just feel its too easy.

altrocks
10-21-2011, 12:37 AM
No, they're doing it for Sands because sands -needs- it, it has the highest amount of epic equipment in it.

You just don't want them to go through with it because you want to make money off of scroll farming,
shame on you.

Well said. The inequality of scroll prices for sands items is ridiculous. You've been chugging gravy long enough, people. Now it's time to scale it back a little. All this change means is that ALL desert scrolls will be worth something now, not just the really good ones.

If Epic Mari Chain sells for 5 FRDS? Trade 3 random, horrible sands scrolls for 5 FRDS, or maybe a few less (like 2 or 3) to make up for the change in availability. You're still going to be getting scrolls way easier and faster farming them with ubercasters, your return will just be (slightly) more even for it.

altrocks
10-21-2011, 12:38 AM
I have made my money off scroll farming I wont deny that, in fact maybe i have 200 odd desert scrolls right about now of which only 3 are raid scrolls, so from what I can see I can benefit greatly from the update.

If this update goes live I can tell you theres is at least another 6 or 7 epic items I will be able to make purely because i have the base, seal and shard and this includes an epic marilith chain.

Essentially the update would most likely be a win for me, I just feel its too easy.

Quote bolded for emphasis. Too easy? How much work did it take to get those 200-odd scrolls? Should that work not be rewarded in some way? Most of those scrolls are worth less than masterwork scepters. Is that fair? You've just invested so much into the current system that the change must be mind boggling. This change should have been implemented long, long ago. Seals and shards are random enough when it comes to large pools like the sands. Scrolls were just too random, especially when every other epic pack in the game has MAYBE 1/6th the number of items, and most of those are at least marginally useful in niche spots. The vast majority of sands epic items are useless to everyone. This is probably a much easier way of handling it than asking the devs to go in an revamp the entire item list like they did for house D in U11 (and, incidentally, also make some of us waste anywhere from 23 to 83 tokens rebuilding those items after the upgrade).

This is better.

Trench
10-21-2011, 12:57 AM
The fact that they haven't incorporated Epic Dungeon / Raids Tokens into this system is the dead giveaway that it's only preliminary and subject to change. You heard it here first, folks. :-)

3 scrolls, 20 epic tokens, and an epic raid token for a scroll of choice?

xandariant
10-21-2011, 02:06 AM
3 scrolls, 20 epic tokens, and an epic raid token for a scroll of choice?

Please just stop with that adding more difficulty and whining already like i see in other threads.
Its just the way it was supposed to be. Scrolls were to be the easiest to get part to make an item and now a lot of ppl needs only a scroll to make an item and those tho are brain-dead-farmers get a lot of plat for what? Not getting fun with playing and farming their head over?
That is just sick.
Leave it the way it is in Lama now and add other packs scrolls also!

Ghibly
10-21-2011, 02:34 AM
Something needs to change with Sands Epics, wether it be the availability of scrolls or seals or shards for that matter...

Trading in 3 scrolls for a scroll of your choice though to me seems a little overboard, a better way I see of implementing a change like this is:

Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.
With an even chance of it being any of the other scrolls from that sands, wether it be Raid, Explorer or Quest.

Also update scroll drops so there is an even chance of any 1 scroll droppping being from the Raid, Explorer or Quests.

Also update shard drop rates in Sands quests end chests to include increased chances at explorer shards.

Also update many of the Epic Sands items as 80% of them are obsolete on most builds or just not good enough in regards to other easier obtainable items.
I quote everything you say man!

All the people that say: no, why add more difficulties and bla bla bla are the same people that farm CC and the Mabar. Bah...this way (Epic Sands too easy way to change scrolls) everyone will have the same uber mega pro gear (I hope, at least, devs won't improve the shards/seals drop-rate). Am I the only one who loves the differentiation?

Look at my DDO: 70% of the capped toons has 2 or more CC/Mabar items. Is it nice?

This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.

And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.

When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Waiting for trolls now, please.

My 2 cents.

furbyoats
10-21-2011, 02:45 AM
Something needs to change with Sands Epics, wether it be the availability of scrolls or seals or shards for that matter...

Trading in 3 scrolls for a scroll of your choice though to me seems a little overboard, a better way I see of implementing a change like this is:

Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.
With an even chance of it being any of the other scrolls from that sands, wether it be Raid, Explorer or Quest.

Also update scroll drops so there is an even chance of any 1 scroll droppping being from the Raid, Explorer or Quests.

Also update shard drop rates in Sands quests end chests to include increased chances at explorer shards.

Also update many of the Epic Sands items as 80% of them are obsolete on most builds or just not good enough in regards to other easier obtainable items.

I like the idea, however you are still left with the same lottery system that is in place. Random scroll from a huge pool. 3 random for 1 specific is too easy. Shards and seals are definitely just as big of an issue as the scrolls IMO. But I do like the alternative thinking here. Hopefully the devs are checking these threads as some really good ideas have spawned.

+1

BoBo2020
10-21-2011, 08:36 AM
This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.


"allowed to run epics..."

Wow.

Rarely have I seen such unbridled, unwarranted arrogance.

s...l...o...w...c...l...a...p....

Thrudh
10-21-2011, 08:45 AM
Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.
With an even chance of it being any of the other scrolls from that sands, wether it be Raid, Explorer or Quest.

That is a terrible idea...

What they really need to do is add a 20th or 50th end-reward list... For shards, seals, and scrolls.

I despise luck grinding... I haven't done a lot of epics because I don't enjoy grinding out the same quest/raid for a week or two and being ZERO PERCENT closer to my goal after all that time...

Scrolls were never really the issue. You could always buy scrolls. Seals and Shards need to be looked at too.

I like the Shroud because I'm always making progress towards my goals... I don't mind the other raids because even when we get skunked, at least it's one more completion towards that 20th list... So I'm still making progress.

I very much dislike epic grinding...

Thrudh
10-21-2011, 08:46 AM
I have made my money off scroll farming I wont deny that, in fact maybe i have 200 odd desert scrolls right about now of which only 3 are raid scrolls, so from what I can see I can benefit greatly from the update.

If this update goes live I can tell you theres is at least another 6 or 7 epic items I will be able to make purely because i have the base, seal and shard and this includes an epic marilith chain.

Essentially the update would most likely be a win for me, I just feel its too easy.

You play a lot.

Thrudh
10-21-2011, 09:02 AM
And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.


Wizs with 38 INT etc...

My wizard had a 40 INT (18 +5 level ups +3 enhancments +2 tome +6 item +3 exceptional +1 ship +2 capstone) when he first started doing epics.

That gave him a 41 enchantment DC (10 + 9 (Heighten) + 15 INT + 1 Past-life feat + 2 Spell Focus feats + 2 item +2 Archmage)

He used his 1 sp hypno to debuff and get another -3 to will save before casting dance or mass holds.

He had no ToD ring, very little top-end gear, and yet he's done very well over multiple runs in eChrono and eDA..

You don't have to be all decked out to do well in epics. That "Garbage" CC/Mabar" gear is actually quite powerful... Those items DO allow the newbs to enter the "real" epic quests and contribute.

LordPiglet
10-21-2011, 05:08 PM
Thing is, if you read the devs posts, you new something like this was coming. Actually I think the originally hinted at a basically generic scroll that would be used in the Sands.

Chai
11-04-2011, 09:29 AM
No.

We tried a lottery system with DT armor, and we saw how that worked.

Why anyone would ever propose another lottery system after that is beyond me, and just about everyone else that experienced that system previous to mod 9.

joaofalcao
11-04-2011, 09:41 AM
How we are full of cheap cop-outs in this game. =/

Well, chai has a good point regarding what randoness does for us.

As I see it, the main problem on sands are not the scrolls. You can always purchase the one you want, even if some of them are really expensive. All you have to do is to gather resources if youre not lucky to pull the one you WANT.

The problem in sands is the number of epic items, above 60, divided amongst 4 quests and a raid.

The clearer way to solve it is to get the rest of those sand quests and made them epic. That way you could distribute shards and seals better. I really dont fathom to this day why the whole pack wasnt made epic in the first place.

Also, agree some items need a revamp.

Chai
11-04-2011, 09:54 AM
All the people that say: no, why add more difficulties and bla bla bla are the same people that farm CC and the Mabar. Bah...this way (Epic Sands too easy way to change scrolls) everyone will have the same uber mega pro gear (I hope, at least, devs won't improve the shards/seals drop-rate). Am I the only one who loves the differentiation?


Do you remember DT lottery system? Thats why I dont want to see another lotto system. Any other explanation needed? -heh


Look at my DDO: 70% of the capped toons has 2 or more CC/Mabar items. Is it nice?

This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.

Saying you have to have epic items to run epics is putting the cart before the horse. It doesnt work that way. The sad fact is: Those CC / mabar items are more powerful than 75% of the "real epics" the elitists brag about. The best monk undead beaters and the best pale master robe are being rediculed? Doesnt matter where they come from, look at the stats.


And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.

No. Most have exceptional stats, regardless if they ran a TOD or not - they are still accounted for.


When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Because mass hold and auto crit was so tough, right? Vellah was a loot pinata and the ball method trivialized the DQ. Epics were tough until we figured them out, then they were easy peasy like they are now.


Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Becsuse they shun 90% of the server, they all end up with eachother, and when you get a pile of elitists grouping together daily, players realize how stale peoples attitudes have become in regards to the social experience of this game, which used to be alot more fun before people began preaching this "have specific gear or dont join my group" nonsense. The only thing worse than having 2 elitists bragging to 10 newbies is having 12 elitists bragging to eachother. Gets old real quick, and people who realize that this will be the highlight of their social experience in this game for now on end up leaving and finding an MMO with a better social experience.

This is DDO , not WOW, and not a tier level game as an absolute. People can run epics without having one epic item. I think its cute that people mention eChrono when they try to throw down about more difficult epics (a super easy quest designed for low level play then made epic due to stats alone) has nothing to do with gear directly, and more to do with player skill and following directions. Ill take people with heal amp gear (non epic)before ill take full ****** DPS with no heal amp any day, and win sans potion usage.

patang01
11-04-2011, 10:02 AM
I quote everything you say man!

All the people that say: no, why add more difficulties and bla bla bla are the same people that farm CC and the Mabar. Bah...this way (Epic Sands too easy way to change scrolls) everyone will have the same uber mega pro gear (I hope, at least, devs won't improve the shards/seals drop-rate). Am I the only one who loves the differentiation?

Look at my DDO: 70% of the capped toons has 2 or more CC/Mabar items. Is it nice?

This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.

And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.

When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Waiting for trolls now, please.

My 2 cents.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong then. I thought it was about skill and having okay gear and know quest, work as a team and win.

Not that there was a minimum requirement of bling to succeed. I wonder how I've managed for all those years with toons without the bling?

grgurius
11-04-2011, 10:10 AM
My thoughts, good change, but it doesn't need to go any further then sands scrolls, other packs simply don't have that big loot table, and shards and seals should remain rare items ( maybe uping the drop rate of sands explorer items shards )


I quote everything you say man!

All the people that say: no, why add more difficulties and bla bla bla are the same people that farm CC and the Mabar. Bah...this way (Epic Sands too easy way to change scrolls) everyone will have the same uber mega pro gear (I hope, at least, devs won't improve the shards/seals drop-rate). Am I the only one who loves the differentiation?

Look at my DDO: 70% of the capped toons has 2 or more CC/Mabar items. Is it nice?

This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.

And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.

When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Waiting for trolls now, please.

My 2 cents.

Allowed to run epics? Geared to the hilt for running epics?

I dunno which game you played, but i know i started running epics, pre U5, with only notable gear being heavy fort and gs sp item.

Think this post proves, no mather the gear he accumulates, noob is still a noob.

Lord_Thanatos
11-04-2011, 10:10 AM
I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.


If you are so elite and all the elite end-gamers are quitting DDO?






Why are you still here?

JOTMON
11-04-2011, 10:14 AM
Trade 3 sands scrolls for a RANDOM sands scroll which can not be one of the scrolls you traded in.

No, Random drops is what caused a lot of the problem in the first place.
Random drops are useless and annoying.

Stuck farming for some random scroll with a .001% chance of dropping and then having every pug who has it pop into their inventory take it so they can sell it to the highest bidder is frustrating.

Stuck Farming for that last seal/shard that rarely ever drops is a pain.

Shard/Seal farming.. could be your first run or could be 300+ runs

Grinding working towards a goal is different than being stuck to the point beyond frustration.

I would much rather see a generic scroll option, or a fragment/token turn-in option.

This is why i prefer Shroud, and even the events to some extent.

You know it is just a matter of time before you get all the parts you need to make what you want.
Look at cleansing stones in shroud. after 20 runs you know it will be on the list. it is guaranteed. but... there is also a choice of +3 tomes.. tempting.... do another 20 runs.. it is a relatively finite path.

Run 40 shrouds an you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to craft multiple pieces that fit your personalized build. How many can say they got all the peces for their epic torc, marilth chain, esos, spell storing,or other desired epics in 40 runs. I have 200 Epic DQ's between my 2 clerics and neither of them has managed the epic torc, or even the base torc for that matter..


Add a option to turn-in some of these useless scrolls/shards/seals for tokens/fragments, at least I can use those.

Seamonkeysix
11-04-2011, 10:25 AM
I quote everything you say man!

All the people that say: no, why add more difficulties and bla bla bla are the same people that farm CC and the Mabar. Bah...this way (Epic Sands too easy way to change scrolls) everyone will have the same uber mega pro gear (I hope, at least, devs won't improve the shards/seals drop-rate). Am I the only one who loves the differentiation?

Look at my DDO: 70% of the capped toons has 2 or more CC/Mabar items. Is it nice?

This way every "single just capped n00b player" feels allowed to run epics just because he has 2 (garbage) CC/Mabar items.

And in most of the cases the vast majority of these players has never run a single ToD (no ToD's rings) and/or doesn't have any GS items/weapons or any DR-breakers weapon too.

When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Waiting for trolls now, please.

My 2 cents.

Time to insert my standard: "Gear does not make the player" quote.

I have a level 20 FvS that I almost exclusively use to do epics. He has zero epic gear that he uses (he gives all of the scrolls, shards and seals to my other toons). Over the course of the last year, I have done enough epic raids and quests to complete roughly 15 epic items, to include 2 Abishai sets, Epic Chimeras Fang, ect...

The point isn't to toot my horn, as I consider myself to be a compentent, but not elite player. The point is that excluding people based on epic gear for epic quests is a false premise. I have a RL friend that is an uber crafter. He prides himself on builds that come from stuff he crafts and some epic raid loot. I would pit him against 90% of the epic raiding population, and he has no epic gear either (by choice).

You cannot judge a player's potential based on how much epic gear they have. Simple as that.

Sands needs an overhaul. Period. I have had several rare scrolls from the sands and have NO sands epic items. I am not sure I will build any, but I see this as a step in the right direction for an epic system that was an epic failure prior to this change.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 10:26 AM
Becsuse they shun 90% of the server, they all end up with eachother, and when you get a pile of elitists grouping together daily, players realize how stale peoples attitudes have become in regards to the social experience of this game, which used to be alot more fun before people began preaching this "have specific gear or dont join my group" nonsense. The only thing worse than having 2 elitists bragging to 10 newbies is having 12 elitists bragging to eachother. Gets old real quick, and people who realize that this will be the highlight of their social experience in this game for now on end up leaving and finding an MMO with a better social experience.

This is DDO , not WOW, and not a tier level game as an absolute. People can run epics without having one epic item. I think its cute that people mention eChrono when they try to throw down about more difficult epics (a super easy quest designed for low level play then made epic due to stats alone) has nothing to do with gear directly, and more to do with player skill and following directions. Ill take people with heal amp gear (non epic)before ill take full ****** DPS with no heal amp any day, and win sans potion usage.

I understand your point, but what I meant was that it's unpleasant when you put up an epic raid/epic quest and people insult you via PM casue you don't accept them in your party.
Elitists use to run togheter and they use to complete the runs, non-elitist simply wipe. This is the reality. That's why this people pray elitist to join they're party.
You've just capped? And you have farmed for 6 days CC+Mabar and wanna run E-Chono. Good for you but don't hit my lfm and, if you do, don't insult me if I don't accept you.
Moreover: there are 2 typology of "non accepted" players in a queue:
1) The one who tells "Hey if you don't want me at least decline"
2) The one who tells "Hey why did you decline me mtrfkkr".

Lol

Enoach
11-04-2011, 10:32 AM
And back on subject...

I think the tech to allow an exchange for scrolls one has collected for a scroll that one would actually like to have makes sense. I'm saddened to see that only Sands has made that list so far, but of all of the areas it has the largest list.

Usually the biggest cry against something like this is from the group that sees the value of their resources dwindle, such as in this case. Sand scrolls will no longer carry the price they once did.

As for the price, is it to low? I don't know, I do know that at this time to FIX an epic item after a change one must use 3 Epic Tokens to do so. So off hand I could see the use of Epic Tokens as being part of the payment. As I'm sure anyone that is after a specific Epic Item Could see 3 random scrolls and 3 Epic Tokens as being worth a trade for the exact scroll of choice.

My point of view on who should be allowed to run epics... Anyone that wants to, however, not everyone that wants to is ready. There are several threads with positive information on what you need to be ready and where to start. Anyone following the advice outlined and willing to learn the ropes should find the experience fun and a challenge.

And this -> YOU DON'T NEED EPIC GEAR TO DO EPICS, but it does make Epics easier.

Jandric
11-04-2011, 10:34 AM
I quote everything you say man!

When most of the today's hard-core players started to run epics, few years ago, they were supposed to have, at least, 2 ToD's upgraded rings, 2 GS items, 2 DR-breakers weapons, Minos Legens, Bloodstone/Litany, etc...And the epics were epic not like today's "casual epics".

Now I see players with 2-3 events' "epic (lol)" items that apply for EDA/E-Chrono/EDQ2 etc...cause they think they're ready for these cause they're epic geared...lol. And they use to get angry when you decline them...I mean Barbs with 490 HPs, Rogues with 290 HPs, Wizs with 38 INT etc...

I'm not surprised that lot of end-gamers are quitting DDO.

Waiting for trolls now, please.

My 2 cents.

I hope this doesn't qualify me as a troll, but that laundry list of equipment is a bit overboard. 2 fully upgraded ToD rings, 2 greensteel items, litany et all is a bit over the top, especially for House P and D epics. You should definitely have heavy fort, some kind of greensteel, decent HPs, and an understanding that this isn't just another IQ quest. But toons with much less gear than you describe have nailed the easier epics w/o issue for some time. This reads to me like LFMs for Shroud with "Green Steel required" :D

grgurius
11-04-2011, 10:40 AM
One more thing, sands scrolls will still have the same low drop rate as other scrolls, once the stashes are crunched, they'll be somewhat rare again.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 10:43 AM
You cannot judge a player's potential based on how much epic gear they have

You're partially right. I don't judge a player basing on his gear, not only, I even consider his stats too.

Wear my shoes for a while.

When you are a raid leader you're responsible for the life time (40mins-1hours) of 12 people including yourself, correct?

I don't know you, but let's suppose you're a good/xperienced player. Think now: how many run/raid did you fail cause of noob/not enough geared people?

Exaples:
1) lvl 11 rogue who joins Xorian Cypher on elite and once inside, at the traps part, he reveals he's a first timer and he doen't have enough spot/disable, ecc.?
2) 3 healers in VoD on hard who finish the mana when Suulom is at 70% HPs despite you explained them the healing steps. Or in the same VoD the lvl 20 wizard has zero CC (INT 36) and his webs/Otto's/wails suck?
3) Bard who told you: I run several EVoN6, I know my job and once inside you realize he only run on hard and could fascinate a kobold?
....
....
n) You know there are infinite examples.

IN CONCLUSION: is it a crime to be selective? I don't know you guys, maybe you have a lot of time to play DDO. I don't so, when I log-in I want to maximize the cost-effecitvenes of my time. That's all folks.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 11:02 AM
I hope this doesn't qualify me as a troll, but that laundry list of equipment is a bit overboard. 2 fully upgraded ToD rings, 2 greensteel items, litany et all is a bit over the top, especially for House P and D epics. You should definitely have heavy fort, some kind of greensteel, decent HPs, and an understanding that this isn't just another IQ quest. But toons with much less gear than you describe have nailed the easier epics w/o issue for some time. This reads to me like LFMs for Shroud with "Green Steel required" :D
I meant old Sands epics. House D and P epics didn't exist yet. And those are not epics at all.

Chai
11-04-2011, 11:09 AM
I understand your point, but what I meant was that it's unpleasant when you put up an epic raid/epic quest and people insult you via PM casue you don't accept them in your party.
Elitists use to run togheter and they use to complete the runs, non-elitist simply wipe. This is the reality. That's why this people pray elitist to join they're party.
You've just capped? And you have farmed for 6 days CC+Mabar and wanna run E-Chono. Good for you but don't hit my lfm and, if you do, don't insult me if I don't accept you.
Moreover: there are 2 typology of "non accepted" players in a queue:
1) The one who tells "Hey if you don't want me at least decline"
2) The one who tells "Hey why did you decline me mtrfkkr".

Lol

Specifically this:


Elitists use to run togheter and they use to complete the runs, non-elitist simply wipe. This is the reality. That's why this people pray elitist to join they're party.

This is so far from the truth in DDO its hilarious. The reality is:

Elitists complete the raid in 20 minutes, after taking 35 minutes to fill the group, due to screening everyone, three step interview process, and reference checks. :p
Non elitists complete the raid in 35 minutes, after taking 10 minutes to fill the group.

No one cares if elitists join their party. On Sarlona, they dont even end up in LFMs, they are all in guilds and channels. The PUGers still get it done and get on timer like everyone else.

Again, its cute when you call out E-Chrono as a tough epic quest, heh. The quest is easy, and the only thing that makes it epic is the last boss fight. I will take a player who knows it on a first life toon with heal amp gear and Wal-Mart epics before ill take epic clad full ****** DPS with no heal amp who did a buncha eVoN 6 (yawn) and eClaw (zzzz).

Dont hit your LFM? What I usually do when someone rejects my join request and I need a completion is create my own LFM. My group will fill before yours and be near the end before yours fills and gets started with the kind of screening you are doing. This is what gets the self proclaimed elitists riled up the most. When someone accepts the fact that they have been declined, but dont slink away feeling like they arent entitled to run the content like the self proclaimed elitist wanted them to, and instead, they put up their own LFM. Then that LFM fills and I get my completion anyhow. I just didnt have to sit and listen to a buncha half lit dudes brag about their gear templates for a half hour while running the quest, so the chat is filled mostly with directions and funny unrelated socializing.

What you are assuming here is that gear level = experience level. The reality is: There are alot of players that are running a first life toon (not their main) who already have completions of the SAME QUEST you are denying them for racked up. You deny them and I pull them into my LFM and get rolling, and succeed.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 11:21 AM
No one cares if elitists join their party. On Sarlona, they dont even end up in LFMs, they are all in guilds and channels. The PUGers still get it done and get on timer like everyone else.

Again, its cute when you call out E-Chrono as a tough epic quest, heh. The quest is easy, and the only thing that makes it epic is the last boss fight. I will take a player who knows it on a first life toon with heal amp gear and Wal-Mart epics before ill take epic clad full ****** DPS with no heal amp who did a buncha eVoN 6 (yawn) and eClaw (zzzz).

Dont hit your LFM? What I usually do when someone rejects my join request and I need a completion is create my own LFM. My group will fill before yours and be near the end before yours fills and gets started with the kind of screening you are doing. This is what gets the self proclaimed elitists riled up the most. When someone accepts the fact that they have been declined, but dont slink away feeling like they arent entitled to run the content like the self proclaimed elitist wanted them to, and instead, they put up their own LFM. Then that LFM fills and I get my completion anyhow. I just didnt have to sit and listen to a buncha half lit dudes brag about their gear templates for a half hour while running the quest, so the chat is filled mostly with directions and funny unrelated socializing.

What you are assuming here is that gear level = experience level. The reality is: There are alot of players that are running a first life toon (not their main) who already have completions of the SAME QUEST you are denying them for racked up. You deny them and I pull them into my LFM and get rolling, and succeed.
100% lol now my day is better! ty man!
I see you belive in what you type. Good for you!
(Kiddin' mode ON)
You're the best and maybe Sarlona is the n°1 of the Servers cause, for Chai, E-Chono is easy :D - You're Uber Chai ok and I'm a n00b. (Kiddin' mode OFF)

Seriously when I (or any of the elitists) put an lfm up for a raid it fills in 2 mins cause all the elitists know eachother and have a private channel...have you considered that?

Lol so in the time you run (and wipe 50%) a raid, I succeed in 2.

OMG, this is the reality

Fetchi
11-04-2011, 11:32 AM
the only thing worse than having 2 elitists bragging to 10 newbies is having 12 elitists bragging to each other.

qft

Chai
11-04-2011, 11:53 AM
Exaples:
1) lvl 11 rogue who joins Xorian Cypher on elite and once inside, at the traps part, he reveals he's a first timer and he doen't have enough spot/disable, ecc.?

Previous to the group - can you get the traps in here? All thats needed is maxed ranks and the highest skill mod gear for the level - which is had off vendors, heh.


2) 3 healers in VoD on hard who finish the mana when Suulom is at 70% HPs despite you explained them the healing steps. Or in the same VoD the lvl 20 wizard has zero CC (INT 36) and his webs/Otto's/wails suck?

If you specifically outlined how to conserve resources its their fault, if you didnt its your fault as the leader. VOD is the easiest raid to tell if someones new on, because they dont know how to get there, not to kill archers, and dont know how to open the door. A small amount of observation here shows you who all the newbies are - no need to even ask, heh.


3) Bard who told you: I run several EVoN6, I know my job and once inside you realize he only run on hard and could fascinate a kobold?


High enough DC can be had on a minimal cha bard.

23 perform ranks
7 cha mod - this is a 24 cha on a warchanter who is built for melee, with junk gear - other bards have much more
15 perform item (ghetto gear)
4 GH
1 VOTM (notice I didnt put a +2 item here but rather using ghetto gear to highlight how easy it is to get the DC)
-------------------------------------
50
51-70 after the d20 roll for fascinate.
Base mob would have to roll a 20 to save.

Its usually not the bards fault from my observation, its usually either the wizard who cant keep their PM aura turned off for 2 minutes, or the THFer who gets too close to the fascinated mobs.

Note that there are ways to get much higher DC - I just highlighted how to do it straight ghetto, no epics required.

50 - ghetto dc
6 - shroud cha skills item
5 - cloak in new cannith quests
1 - HOGF 20 reaver raids (zzzzz)
------------------------------------------
62 Still no epics.
Now your DC is 63-82 Anything that CAN be fascinated WILL be fascinated - unless it rolls a 20 on its save. Warchanter, ghetto charisma, ghetto gear. Need previous epics to run this? No. I ran this on my warchanter 60+ times during the same time period I was getting shroud and TOD completions.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 11:58 AM
people who realize that this will be the highlight of their social experience in this game for now on end up leaving and finding an MMO with a better social experience.
Lol you play MMOs to make new friends? What about a RL?

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 12:08 PM
Previous to the group - can you get the traps in here? All thats needed is maxed ranks and the highest skill mod gear for the level - which is had off vendors, heh.



If you specifically outlined how to conserve resources its their fault, if you didnt its your fault as the leader. VOD is the easiest raid to tell if someones new on, because they dont know how to get there, not to kill archers, and dont know how to open the door. A small amount of observation here shows you who all the newbies are - no need to even ask, heh.



High enough DC can be had on a minimal cha bard.

23 perform ranks
7 cha mod - this is a 24 cha on a warchanter who is built for melee, with junk gear - other bards have much more
15 perform item (ghetto gear)
4 GH
1 VOTM (notice I didnt put a +2 item here but rather using ghetto gear to highlight how easy it is to get the DC)
-------------------------------------
50
51-70 after the d20 roll for fascinate.
Base mob would have to roll a 20 to save.

Its usually not the bards fault from my observation, its usually either the wizard who cant keep their PM aura turned off for 2 minutes, or the THFer who gets too close to the fascinated mobs.

Ok...Am I allowed, from your point of view, to ask to the applier if they have, for example DR breakers weapons??
Other examples:
1) yesterday I was forming up a EDQ2 and a Sorc applied. I asked him: what kind of Savant? Reply: Air. Me:do you know the Queen is immune to elect? Reply: so what? Accept me or shout your f **** up.
2) people who applies for ToD on Hard/Elite with - if lucky - only LitII weapons (no Arty)...

Do you understand what I mean?? The post was about people who have just capped, farm CC+Mabar and think to be epic ready and uber and that insult you when you don't accept them! This not because I think those items are garbage (even if they're). But because very often these players are n00bs in the real meaning of the term. And they make the party wipe most of the time.
I have no probs at all for xperienced player who have in their 6-8 toons some CC/Mabar items. I crafted an epic scepter for my planned FVS Evoker too.

Vint
11-04-2011, 12:24 PM
Time to insert my standard: "Gear does not make the player" quote.

The difference is when a lvl 20 Rogue with 280 hp links his "epic brawling gloves" he thinks that will be the game breaker and it will be easy since he has epic gear.

I am down to 10 hours or so a week of playing. I understand exactly what it means to have very little time. I am all for the change, but flame me or not there are many people out there that have no business in epic. It is not because of their gear, it is because of their knowledge.

Qezuzu
11-04-2011, 12:27 PM
Who are you? What do you want from me? My profile is not anonymous like yours and my toons are on the signature.
Nothing about you, just Thelanis...oh lemme think...another n00b I didn't accept?
Looool sure thing I can bet on it.

Ignore the troll, folks.

Makes assumptions about the playing ablities of other people: Check
Calls people noobs without knowing their playing abilities: Check
Claims to be "all that": Check
Flaunts their "all that"ness: Check



1) yesterday I was forming up a EDQ2 and a Sorc applied. I asked him: what kind of Savant? Reply: Air. Me:do you know the Queen is immune to elect? Reply: so what? Accept me or shout your f **** up.


I would expect some one of your supposed knowledge that Air Savants are capable of speccing in Ice along with Air.

And nothing of value was lost this day.

Qezuzu
11-04-2011, 12:33 PM
The difference is when a lvl 20 Rogue with 280 hp links his "epic brawling gloves" he thinks that will be the game breaker and it will be easy since he has epic gear.

I am down to 10 hours or so a week of playing. I understand exactly what it means to have very little time. I am all for the change, but flame me or not there are many people out there that have no business in epic. It is not because of their gear, it is because of their knowledge.

I only partially agree with the post you quoted.

While gear doesn't make the player, the player makes the gear. Generally, a 280 HP rogue won't be a good player, since they don't have the knowledge that HP is important, 280 HP is unacceptable, and how to get more HP. If they don't have that knowledge, it's a safe assumption they don't have the knowledge to be an effective rogue.

In my own epic/raid parties, I'm fine with an applicant not having raid/epic items, but if they still have <100 fort, low HP, junk gear like +5 DEX gloves of +3 healing or something, I'll decline them if I'm running a difficult quest.

I'll totally carry them through carnival or something.

Delt
11-04-2011, 12:38 PM
IN CONCLUSION: is it a crime to be selective? I don't know you guys, maybe you have a lot of time to play DDO. I don't so, when I log-in I want to maximize the cost-effecitvenes of my time. That's all folks.

It's ok to be selective. It's less OK to pretend the only feasible way to run epics is if you are geared out. That's kinda like saying the only way to complete Shroud is with a group of TR'd 20's...it's easier, that's all.

For the record, I think the epic grind is boring. I had my fill of lotteries with RR and I really only bothered with DT when it had the shortcut. I'm sporting largely the same gear I was wearing 2 years ago and can still solo epics, which I will do from time to time just for the sake of it.

PS - I didn't read page 2. I see my comments are redundant, mostly.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 12:54 PM
Air Savants are capable of speccing in Ice along with Air.
OMG really? I have to find this sorc to beg his pardon...oh no he was fire specced too.

krackythehoodedone
11-04-2011, 01:00 PM
Well firstly Smallmans youve got about 5 days left to find me a Chaosblade Scroll or i'm gonna go get my own.

For all those criticising the Desert Scroll rethink remember that Raid Scrolls USED to drop in EADQ2 until a couple of greedy types farmed the **** out of the hallway and it was stopped. So in reality Raid Scrolls were never intentioned to be that rare.

As to the guy ranting about noobish epics..please behave.

Their is a massive gulf between a capped toon that has had two years to TR and equip his toon and someone who has just got to cap.

Given the toughening up of a lot of raids recently newer players have been really struggling to get into high end content pugs.

The Epic items up for grabs in the two recent events give these players a great oppurtunity to bridge that gap.

I struggle to understand the pettiness of those who call them ''welfare epics''

As to the other Desert Epic stuff and the drop rates. Apparently they are working as intended. Yes this means that the Desert Explorer Epic Item Shards are incredibly tough to find especially the more powerful ones.

I dont believe this is neccesarily a bad thing. A few ''Holy Grail'' items that really are extraordinarily rare is IMHO a philip for those that like to obtain the virtually unobtainable.

Chai
11-04-2011, 01:02 PM
Seriously when I (or any of the elitists) put an lfm up for a raid it fills in 2 mins cause all the elitists know eachother and have a private channel...have you considered that?



Why yes, I did consider that. In fact, I even outlined it in a previous response to you about why alot of end gamers are quitting the game, heh. Its because they all end up in the same boat together and they realize that being in a group with 11 other elitists bragging about gear will be the highlight of their social experience each time they log in and ignore 95% of the server due to being self proclaimed elite.

This whole "have gear or we wont let you run the quests to get gear" mentality is hilarious, because players run those quests and get that gear anyhow. When you decline them, they dont just sulk away dejected, they either form their own group or jump into another, and complete.

The self proclaimed elite think they are somehow enforcing a gate mechanism, when in fact, all they are doing is failing to teach the up and coming players the ropes, so when enough end gamers have left to the point where the remaining self proclaimed elite have to tap into the PUG pool to fill raids, they will be laying in their own bed that they made by contributing to the play quality disparity on their server.

And I will still be taking less geared players through the same quests the "elite" are blaming everyone else but themselves for wiping in, due to having to tap into the PUG pool to fill raids, but still holding onto their lack of willingness to teach them players in that pool.

grgurius
11-04-2011, 01:20 PM
OMG really? I have to find this sorc to beg his pardon...oh no he was fire specced too.

iirc, dq is not imune to fire, but i'm sure that someone as elite as you already knows that :rolleyes:

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 01:21 PM
Why yes, I did consider that. In fact, I even outlined it in a previous response to you about why alot of end gamers are quitting the game, heh. Its because they all end up in the same boat together and they realize that being in a group with 11 other elitists bragging about gear will be the highlight of their social experience each time they log in and ignore 95% of the server due to being self proclaimed elite.

This whole "have gear or we wont let you run the quests to get gear" mentality is hilarious, because players run those quests and get that gear anyhow. When you decline them, they dont just sulk away dejected, they either form their own group or jump into another, and complete.

The self proclaimed elite think they are somehow enforcing a gate mechanism, when in fact, all they are doing is failing to teach the up and coming players the ropes, so when enough end gamers have left to the point where the remaining self proclaimed elite have to tap into the PUG pool to fill raids, they will be laying in their own bed that they made by contributing to the play quality disparity on their server.

And I will still be taking less geared players through the same quests the "elite" are blaming everyone else but themselves for wiping in, due to having to tap into the PUG pool to fill raids, but still holding onto their lack of willingness to teach them players in that pool.

I partially agree with you. It's ok to take 1 "new player" but when they are 5-6 you don't know, how can you be sure you can succeed?
I mean: you can be the best leader in the server but:
a) many players don't follow the instructions/orders (nad trust me, it's not leader's fault);
b) some player don't understand English;
c) some players doesn't really know what to do.

So why you wanna take 1 hour to complete a run with a more or less high risk to wipe, when you could run the same quest 99% no wipe in 20 mins?

Maybe you're a good man and I'm not, maybe you have more time than me, maybe you prefer to help less xperienced player...but my point of view doesn't want to be racist, only realistic.

When I started to play DDO, I used to run alone, no guild, no friends, noone to help me and I took a lot of insults from xperienced people cause I didn't know the rules/quests/raids (Burn the ****ing crystal (Sorc in The Shroud) - Don't kill the archers mtrffkr in VoD, etc) :D.

On the other and I never insult noob player, just don't accept them.

I repeat: is it a crime?

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 01:26 PM
iirc, dq is not imune to fire, but i'm sure that someone as elite as you already knows that :rolleyes:
Yes and I do know that's better to hit her with Niac's*3 dots + Ice Storm than nuke her with WoF+Scorching Ray+Meteor Swarm and blĂ* blĂ* blĂ*...

But you're Uber Grug, I know you knew.

Bah

WruntJunior
11-04-2011, 01:26 PM
OMG really? I have to find this sorc to beg his pardon...oh no he was fire specced too.

Yeah, too bad demons are immune to fire....oh wait.

Edit: Bah, too slow...but still, anything that can damage her = good enough....not like eDQ2 will fail if one sorc isn't doing enough damage.

For the record, I like wild cards in my group, as long as it's not something where one bad person will cause a wipe (not familiar with any raid that outright causes that). Especially on thelanis, 80-90% of the people that hit my lfms are at least good enough to follow directions. The other 10-20%, they either wind up on my special list or I already don't see their join request because they're ON that special list. Don't pretend that most pugs are ********, please, Fiz.

Chai
11-04-2011, 01:27 PM
Lol you play MMOs to make new friends? What about a RL?

Better than turning a video game into work.

The people are the number one reason to stay around. Once its me and 11 other lolerskaters ina group and all I hear is how ubersteez someones gear template is for an hour straight every time I log in, thats about all she wrote folks. The funny thing is, you think these people you decline in the lfm WANT to join, when all they have to do is actually join and run for a few days under those circumstances to learn they no longer want to.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Better than turning a video game into work
I didn't catch this.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Don't pretend that most pugs are ********, please, Fiz.
Lol Wrunt I do PUG 95% of the time and you know it! I've never pretended pugs are ********.
Simply I pug with known Guilds.

Malky
11-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Waiting for trolls now, please.

Don't forget to prep firewall, they're vulnerable to it!

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Don't forget to prep firewall, they're vulnerable to it!
Yeah they take lot of fire damage! :D

CoasterHops
11-04-2011, 01:40 PM
I have actually tr'd my battle caster now (epic farmer) I thought I might as well roll with the rest of the pure wizards out there as he pretty much would be coming obsolete for the specific purposes I built him for.

Evasion self buffed 38 reflex with 507 hp, ice and fire specced, insta kills and very little in the way of cc, so hey he will end up exactly like 98% of other wizards on the server, CC and not much else but ohh well...

Anyways I have had a bit of a rethink on the scroll changes and have accepted that it looks like this change will be implemented, which I guess for many will be cool and I guess for myself will actually be of more immediate use than others.

As it stands at the moment I think I can make 7 or 8 epic desert items for which I have all of the shards/seals and scrolls for this includes Epic Demonscale armor and dustless boots.
Post u12 that number will jump to maybe 16 or more really unsure because I dont run spreadsheets, including items such as Epic Marilith Chain, Chaosblade, Torc, Greenblade, Lion Headed Belt Buckle, Shining Crest and others god I don't even know all I can make so yeah it will be good for me in the long run.

So bring on the changes, guess for many sands farmers (some who have already moved on) chrono is going to be the go to quest to farm now like it is for almost all other scroll farmers on the server.... which I guess is good as it will bring abishai scroll prices down further.

PS. I'm on khyber, got a Charged Gauntlets Scroll? I have an ultra rare (2 actually) Demonscale armor scroll to trade for one come get it. Hehe.

WruntJunior
11-04-2011, 01:42 PM
Lol Wrunt I do PUG 95% of the time and you know it! I've never pretended pugs are ********.
Simply I pug with known Guilds.

There's only 2 guilds that I always decline (you know who they are if you're on Thelanis) and I usually get good people. But yeah. I don't think I've ever lead my own group that was filled entirely from guild and channels...though I do (almost, sometimes I forget) always say something there.

Anyways, back to the topic on hand, I'm fine with the change to sands scrolls for one reason. The scrolls have never been the obstacle. In the past, people have tended to buy whatever scrolls they need when they have the other 3 parts (or, like me, as soon as they see a good deal). Now, it just means that people can not worry as much about the scrolls, as at worst, they can go farm scrolls for a few hours, and all of a sudden, they have their scroll. In all honesty, I wouldn't be against a similar (though more expensive) system for seals or shards, though that probably WOULDN'T be a good idea.

Chai
11-04-2011, 01:45 PM
I partially agree with you. It's ok to take 1 "new player" but when they are 5-6 you don't know, how can you be sure you can succeed?

Because Ive short manned every single thing in this game save for the brand new stuff on epic, and succeeded. If its myself and 5 guildys and 6 absolutely horrendous noobs, we will complete. I -WILL- turn it into a learning experience for the noobs though. I dont mind carrying people through 1 or 2 completions if they are willing to learn.


I mean: you can be the best leader in the server but:
a) many players don't follow the instructions/orders (nad trust me, it's not leader's fault);
b) some player don't understand English;
c) some players doesn't really know what to do.

a) not following directions has nothing to do with gear. Nor is gear an indicator of whether they will or not. You are just as likely to find someone clad in walmart gear who tells you not to order them around as you are to find someone clad in epics that tells you the same. Who do self proclaimed elitists bump heads with the most? Other self proclaimed elitists.

b) these are the best players, as well as the least dramatic players, on two different servers I play on, heh.

c) teach them. most want to learn. sure there are a few idiots, but if even one in 10 become epic capable over the next 6 months we will never have to worry about filling these groups for a long time.

its myself and 5 guildys and 6 absolutely horrendous noobs, we will complete. I -WILL- turn it into a learning experience for the noobs though. I dont mind carrying people through 1 or 2 completions if they are willing to learn.


So why you wanna take 1 hour to complete a run with a more or less high risk to wipe, when you could run the same quest 99% no wipe in 20 mins?

Those timeframes are not accurate. The raid I have to provide directions for is 10 minutes longer.


Maybe you're a good man and I'm not, maybe you have more time than me, maybe you prefer to help less xperienced player...but my point of view doesn't want to be racist, only realistic.

I prefer to invest in the PUG quality of those around me because I understand the same thing you do - many of the good players are leaving. I just react to that differently, by teaching the next generation of newbies how to roll in this harder content. Enough good players HAVE left where we ARE faced with having to tap into the PUG pool on our servers. I am not seeing alot of the issues many others are claiming to see, because I have met enough people through willingness to teach who are good enough to fill in the gaps.

Good players are leaving. Ive surrounded myself with their able replacements, and found out who among them can play ball.


When I started to play DDO, I used to run alone, no guild, no friends, noone to help me and I took a lot of insults from xperienced people cause I didn't know the rules/quests/raids (Burn the ****ing crystal (Sorc in The Shroud) - Don't kill the archers mtrffkr in VoD, etc) :D.

On the other and I never insult noob player, just don't accept them.

The end result of that is when the good players leave, and theres not enough people you normally group with on at any given time, you end up having to shortman quests or not run the stuff that you desire a full group for.


I repeat: is it a crime?

Crime, no. Its entertainment when people who have taken no interest in increasing the PUG quality on their servers complain about the high quantity of people who suck, and getting into verbal disputes with them over declining them from LFMs of quests that can easily be completed with alot less gear than the leader is requiring of applicants. Because the fact is, there are alot of GOOD players, just not alot of GEARED players.

sephiroth1084
11-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Well i believe the element of randomness still allows for a little value for certain scrolls, just a trade in for whatever you like seems to me far to easy...

If they go along these lines they might as well implement it for every pack that has epic items, let us trade in all of those natt gann staff scrolls for abishai ones.
No. See, Sands has almost 70 epic items, while no other pack has more than 20. How much do people enjoy the random generation of runes for Dragontouched armor? I know that I had crunched dozens upon dozens of runes to try and get certain effects on different DTs and gave up after never getting them, whether from the chests or the crunching, and there are far fewer options at each tier of DT crafting than there are scrolls in the desert.

The desert needs a reliable way of obtaining scrolls. Nothing else does. Case closed.

grayham
11-04-2011, 01:53 PM
On topic- this is a good change for the sands. I don't think it will unbalance the loot as the scrolls are not often the elusive piece in the jigsaw. Up until now getting a marilith or torc scroll was not far off pulling an unbound +4 tome. Lottery win, profit. That has now been removed. I hope they don't let other packs follow suit though.

Off topic. I wanted to offer some insight into the debate since I regularly share forums with one player and quests with another. Don't want to see a discussion get out of hadn with 2 people I respect. so...

Chai- You're always a sound contributor on these forums, and i agree with much of what you say, in this thread and in others-earlier comment was +1'd. However. Ghibly/Fiz is not all that Ub@rl33t, he just has a solid reputation on the server for putting together epics and elite raids that almost always complete. He is never rude, just direct.

Fiz- One FRDS for the Huvrayahs scroll ok? (!!!!)

Malky
11-04-2011, 01:55 PM
Lol Wrunt I do PUG 95% of the time and you know it! I've never pretended pugs are ********.
Simply I pug with known Guilds.

Ouch beware such statements are askings for punishment : too easy to associate them to things like << all the [commonly segregated community] are [insert a common segregating 'argument'], except my neighbor, he's nice >>

WruntJunior
11-04-2011, 02:03 PM
Fiz- One FRDS for the Huvrayahs scroll ok? (!!!!)

Deal, I have the scroll right here.

Vint
11-04-2011, 02:09 PM
You can call it sarcasam, semantics or whatever you want it is this simple. If a pugger hits an lfm for an epic and is:

Lvl 20 (any class)
280 hp
+4 full plate of haste
no GFL item
a +4 con item
if there a sorc have a +4 cha item
if there a barb a +5 str item
has a base stat of 10 con (14 base on a wiz, 14 base on a sorc)
does have a mabar cloak
and a CC trinket

What do you first think?

A. This is a good player maybe dose not have the gear yet.
B. This is an idiot that has no clue about anything.
C. Reguardless of all that has been seen, he may not be ready for epic yet.


I am not saying that this player is worthless and is damned to Hell, but if he is a good player you would think that he would invest more into his build and possibly his gear. I am not saying he has to be wearing 2 tod rings before he is eligable to run a tod, but put on a gfl item, grab a minos.

This new system is by no means a gimme for the "noob". Even if they trade in for a mari chain scroll they will still have to get a seal and shard. Even if they get lucky and get both in a matter of a couple runs that they squeek into, are they then a good player?

I dont care what loot you have, if you like to train people to be good, want to be elitest, whatever makes the game fun for you, do it. I have always said and will continue to say that you cannot teach stupid.

if someone cant figure out that +6 STR is better than +5
if someone cant figure out that greater arcane lore is better than arcane lore
if someone cant figure out that GFL is better than IFL
if someone cant figure out that a high int is good for a wizard

then they should be playing Candy Land. There are more than enough links on this board as well as wiki to help mold and teach what people need to know. Their lazyness is not my problem.

Long story short, people can play 100 hours a week, have the best gear, best stats, best everything, but if they are an idiot they are an idiot. If you dont like grouping with idiots...dont. If you dont like grouping with elitest....dont.

WruntJunior
11-04-2011, 02:15 PM
You can call it sarcasam, semantics or whatever you want it is this simple. If a pugger hits an lfm for an epic and is:

Lvl 20 (any class)
280 hp
+4 full plate of haste
no GFL item
a +4 con item
if there a sorc have a +4 cha item
if there a barb a +5 str item
has a base stat of 10 con (14 base on a wiz, 14 base on a sorc)
does have a mabar cloak
and a CC trinket

What do you first think?

A. This is a good player maybe dose not have the gear yet.
B. This is an idiot that has no clue about anything.
C. Reguardless of all that has been seen, he may not be ready for epic yet.


I am not saying that this player is worthless and is damned to Hell, but if he is a good player you would think that he would invest more into his build and possibly his gear. I am not saying he has to be wearing 2 tod rings before he is eligable to run a tod, but put on a gfl item, grab a minos.

This new system is by no means a gimme for the "noob". Even if they trade in for a mari chain scroll they will still have to get a seal and shard. Even if they get lucky and get both in a matter of a couple runs that they squeek into, are they then a good player?

I dont care what loot you have, if you like to train people to be good, want to be elitest, whatever makes the game fun for you, do it. I have always said and will continue to say that you cannot teach stupid.

if someone cant figure out that +6 STR is better than +5
if someone cant figure out that greater arcane lore is better than arcane lore
if someone cant figure out that GFL is better than IFL
if someone cant figure out that a high int is good for a wizard

then they should be playing Candy Land. There are more than enough links on this board as well as wiki to help mold and teach what people need to know. Their lazyness is not my problem.

Long story short, people can play 100 hours a week, have the best gear, best stats, best everything, but if they are an idiot they are an idiot. If you dont like grouping with idiots...dont. If you dont like grouping with elitest....dont.

For an epic? I'd assume they like being a soulstone.

Also, assuming their str is odd because of the criticizing the +5 str. >_> But yeah, most any class should have 300 hp by vale, if they're stepping into an epic, they had better at LEAST have heavy fort and 350 hp. Just saying....also, I'm an idiot hater and a don't-care-about-elitists-ist.

Edit: as far as cc and mabar stuff, if they have it and it actually helps them, good for them. If they have something useless (epic cove armor on a monk, for example) either they're an idiot or they leave their myddo like that anyways. I take myddo with a grain of salt, though, after my ranger not updating for 5 months.

CoasterHops
11-04-2011, 02:21 PM
No. See, Sands has almost 70 epic items, while no other pack has more than 20. How much do people enjoy the random generation of runes for Dragontouched armor? I know that I had crunched dozens upon dozens of runes to try and get certain effects on different DTs and gave up after never getting them, whether from the chests or the crunching, and there are far fewer options at each tier of DT crafting than there are scrolls in the desert.

The desert needs a reliable way of obtaining scrolls. Nothing else does. Case closed.

A couple of posts above yours I have basically said as it stands now I no longer have problems with the implementation of this update.

Effectively the change removes scroll farming/grinding call it what you will from the desert epics, run wiz king to completion a few times with some friends and get the three scrolls you need.

As for not changing the scrolls from Chronoscope for example... I don't see a problem with making the change across the board, the mechanics are there for the change already, unless you are actually scroll farming with a blue bar you are unlikely to get the scrolls you want through pure luck running epic chrono to completion with a 12 man team, until well after you have the seals and shards for the particular items.

Remove scroll farming completely from the game, that is where people get mega rich through scroll farming, sad thing is you don't have to be uber to do it, a first life wizard/sorc built to the specs to actually farm the quests can be as efficient as a completionist its just all about knowing what you are doing the few places to stand, what to kill first and some time/ability to repeat things over and over.

How about this - Remove the existing scrolls from the game for all content, make existing scrolls either Left/centre or right for said content, take all the three pieces to epic altar and exchange Left centre and right into scroll of your choice.

Now the mechanic is now there to effectively remove scroll farming from DDO, is it a good thing or bad thing? To the average Joe Bloggs its a good thing, to those who are mega rich and want to keep getting richer via scroll farming not so good.

Now alot of people might think maybe I'm bitter about losing my money making ability, but I have farmed chrono a very small amount and it is not difficult, so no not really. To be honest I had barely logged onto my scroll farmer in months and only did the occasional farm for an hour or so when I was expressly bored or wanted a bit of alone time hehe.

Ghibly
11-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Ouch beware such statements are askings for punishment : too easy to associate them to things like << all the [commonly segregated community] are [insert a common segregating 'argument'], except my neighbor, he's nice >>
You mean Sarkozy VS Berlusconi?

I need some cheese now. Then I'll roll a 33 CHA Sorc and a 38 INT Wiz and apply for an epic (you're one of those this explains all loool).


http://www.somersoft.com/forums/gallery/data/506/medium/Do-not-feed-the-troll.jpg

Chai
11-04-2011, 04:40 PM
You can call it sarcasam, semantics or whatever you want it is this simple. If a pugger hits an lfm for an epic and is:

Lvl 20 (any class)
280 hp
+4 full plate of haste
no GFL item
a +4 con item
if there a sorc have a +4 cha item
if there a barb a +5 str item
has a base stat of 10 con (14 base on a wiz, 14 base on a sorc)
does have a mabar cloak
and a CC trinket

What do you first think?

A. This is a good player maybe dose not have the gear yet.
B. This is an idiot that has no clue about anything.
C. Reguardless of all that has been seen, he may not be ready for epic yet.

C. with emphasis on the word "yet"

In fact, I have met a few versions of this recently.

One was a complete pile on who did not understand character building, specifically the ML on gear and the fact that he could have better gear off the vendors.

The other was a girl in her mid 20s who could roast 98% of all DDO players with regards to twitch skills, and had absolutely no understanding of character building whatsoever. She plays DDO like an arcade game, playing to stay alive and kill as many mobs as possible. When the command is given to pull back during the fire phase of CAD, shes the first person back out as requested. When inferno is called she is back in before anyone else and has never died as of yet due to that.

Character building: barely any knowledge.
Twitch gaming prowess: Unparalleled.

Many people would look at her toon and decline her due to gear, however, she does more DPS than many better geared toons due to mastering economy of movement in DDO.

This kind of player is easy to teach, however, most others ditch her due to MyDDO looking average to below average. Too bad for them.

I have found easily 50+ players that fit similar descriptions through PUGing alone. This is before looking into the channels for a group or raid, or looking into guild for people to roll with as well.


I am not saying that this player is worthless and is damned to Hell, but if he is a good player you would think that he would invest more into his build and possibly his gear. I am not saying he has to be wearing 2 tod rings before he is eligable to run a tod, but put on a gfl item, grab a minos.

This new system is by no means a gimme for the "noob". Even if they trade in for a mari chain scroll they will still have to get a seal and shard. Even if they get lucky and get both in a matter of a couple runs that they squeek into, are they then a good player?

I dont care what loot you have, if you like to train people to be good, want to be elitest, whatever makes the game fun for you, do it. I have always said and will continue to say that you cannot teach stupid.

The onus is on us right now to find out who the good players are in the vast depths of the noob pool, not the other way around. The good players are the few, and the noobs are the many. If 50% of all noobs stopped playing tomorrow they would still have tens of thousands of people to game with. If even a few percent of good high end players leave the game, we now have to dip further into the PUG pool to replace that head count.


if someone cant figure out that +6 STR is better than +5
if someone cant figure out that greater arcane lore is better than arcane lore
if someone cant figure out that GFL is better than IFL
if someone cant figure out that a high int is good for a wizard

then they should be playing Candy Land. There are more than enough links on this board as well as wiki to help mold and teach what people need to know. Their lazyness is not my problem.

You realize what this board looks like to someone looking in from the outside? Most people with common sense dont wish to jump neck deep into the troll muck just to learn the D&D character building system. Most dont even read the forums in the first place. Perhaps they are the smart ones, heh.

If they can blow the doors off you me and jesus in twitch gaming skill they are 90% of the way there though, and worth more than a good character builder who sucks at twitch gaming. Character building is easy to teach. Anyone can learn the stacking system and min maxing given a small amount of time. When I tell you to move in an eVON 6 or CAD fight however, you move or get roasted. Its hilarious when the players bragging about their gear are the ones getting flogged, and my voice comes over the mic and tells them they just got embarrassed by the two newbies they were chiding in chat before we enter the quest, for not being able to follow a simple command, in a raid they have 60+ completions in and shouldnt have even needed to be told, heh. Twitch gaming and economy of movement is much harder to teach than system mastery. MyDDO will not indicate who the good twitch gamers are however....only who the acceptable min maxers are.


Long story short, people can play 100 hours a week, have the best gear, best stats, best everything, but if they are an idiot they are an idiot. If you dont like grouping with idiots...dont. If you dont like grouping with elitest....dont.

Right, but I refuse to believe that the high percentage of players most of us have closed ourselves off from are all just a buncha unsalvagable noobs, heh. If even one out of every ten is a decent player, we would all be swimming in options for people to group with in high end content if we took the time to find out who they are. Thats a pretty low expectation - only needing 10% of the PUG player base to be decent. They are out there, its just that MyDDO will not point em out to us.

voodoogroves
11-04-2011, 05:59 PM
I can't believe people actually screen folks.

For some elite or epic raids - maybe - or maybe check to make sure the dude who says "I can tank sully" can actually tank sully. Maybe for some specific roles in harder epics. Again, I don't check myddo, but ask folks - generally they are good to point out if/when they are new, etc.

For the giant bulk of the game though ... dunno. "Epic, IP, BYOH or pray for a healer type" and take the next X that hit the LFM is generally how I roll. I'm nothing uber, have generally mid-ling gear and poor Mario/twitch skills ... but teaching 5 new people isn't likely to keep me from completing the more commonly run epics, etc. I can't imagine it being harder and me needing to be more selective if I had even better gear or decent keyboard skills - yet that's what I find in these threads.


Either way, Sands grind is annoying esp. for explorer/raid items. Who knows, with this change maybe it will renew my interest in eDQ grinding and I'll see about upgrading that Belt Buckle to +6 so I won't be quite the gimp I am now.

noinfo
11-04-2011, 10:29 PM
You can call it sarcasam, semantics or whatever you want it is this simple. If a pugger hits an lfm for an epic and is:
does have a mabar cloak
and a CC trinket

What do you first think?

A. This is a good player maybe dose not have the gear yet.
B. This is an idiot that has no clue about anything.
C. Reguardless of all that has been seen, he may not be ready for epic yet.




I love the way you link those 2 items with other junk. So what would you put in the trinket slot of a melee wearing Mari or Epic mari chain?

And while for 90% of toons an envenomed is better there are several builds that a eCloak of Night is better.

altrocks
11-05-2011, 12:49 AM
I can't believe people actually screen folks.

For some elite or epic raids - maybe - or maybe check to make sure the dude who says "I can tank sully" can actually tank sully. Maybe for some specific roles in harder epics. Again, I don't check myddo, but ask folks - generally they are good to point out if/when they are new, etc.

For the giant bulk of the game though ... dunno. "Epic, IP, BYOH or pray for a healer type" and take the next X that hit the LFM is generally how I roll. I'm nothing uber, have generally mid-ling gear and poor Mario/twitch skills ... but teaching 5 new people isn't likely to keep me from completing the more commonly run epics, etc. I can't imagine it being harder and me needing to be more selective if I had even better gear or decent keyboard skills - yet that's what I find in these threads.


Either way, Sands grind is annoying esp. for explorer/raid items. Who knows, with this change maybe it will renew my interest in eDQ grinding and I'll see about upgrading that Belt Buckle to +6 so I won't be quite the gimp I am now.

Can't speak to how it is on other servers really, but it keeps sounding like Khyber has it both better and worse than a lot of other servers in various ways. We have a seemingly larger number of both noobs and elitists, but we also seem to have so many knowledgeable people who aren't elitists and so many noobs willing to learn, that it never seems like a huge problem there.

Even so, some of the higher end raids/epics are tough to get into for long periods of time because it's hard to get into groups with the people who figure that stuff out quickly unless you're fully geared and can kick ass with the best of the best.

Ghibly
11-05-2011, 04:53 AM
I love the way you link those 2 items with other junk. So what would you put in the trinket slot of a melee wearing Mari or Epic mari chain?
O M G

Looool....maybe the Litany???? Do you know what Litany of the Dead is?

O M G: you should get it instead wearing "Lesser Cunning Trinket"...looooooool

And while for 90% of toons an envenomed is better there are several builds that a eCloak of Night is better.
Loooool...so why 50%of the toons now has eCloak of Night and only 15% has Envenomed? Do we have 50% of Pale Masters?
Oh and my main is a PM...I wouldn't wear a Mabar cloak...never.

NaturalHazard
11-05-2011, 06:18 AM
That is a terrible idea...

What they really need to do is add a 20th or 50th end-reward list... For shards, seals, and scrolls.

I despise luck grinding... I haven't done a lot of epics because I don't enjoy grinding out the same quest/raid for a week or two and being ZERO PERCENT closer to my goal after all that time...

Scrolls were never really the issue. You could always buy scrolls. Seals and Shards need to be looked at too.

I like the Shroud because I'm always making progress towards my goals... I don't mind the other raids because even when we get skunked, at least it's one more completion towards that 20th list... So I'm still making progress.

I very much dislike epic grinding...


but....but.... you could log onto your caster when groups are slow and farm the hell out of scrolls, get lucky? whoot you can sell that scroll, for enough reds/or lds that took the other guy maybe months to grind. And it might of only taken your a couple of days all up of farming scrolls, 1/2hour here, 20 minutes there while your waiting for groups to fill and yay your having a chance of making serious plat/reds/LDS for your time. Now you might get less return from scroll farming.That guy who only has all melee, and doesnt like to play casters who has seals/shards from completions and 3 odd scrolls that he was lucky enough to get while he was in party can now turn in those 3 scrolls he doesnt want for the scroll he does want, bypassing you, and you miss out on his 15 reds or 30 LDS :(. LIFE IS UNFAIR!!!!!!!!

NaturalHazard
11-05-2011, 06:21 AM
O M G
Loooool...so why 50%of the toons now has eCloak of Night and only 15% has Envenomed? Do we have 50% of Pale Masters?
Oh and my main is a PM...I wouldn't wear a Mabar cloak...never.

I have both a epic envenomed and a epic mabar cloak on on one of my melees and more often than not I log out wearing the mabar cloak? why? because in non-epics the +2 to dodge helps me more, than say another 40hp I would get from wearing my full abishai set.

NaturalHazard
11-05-2011, 06:22 AM
so many noobs willing to learn, that it never seems like a huge problem there.

.

Someone told me once that those where not noobs but newbs........... noobs are those who are not willing to learn.

krackythehoodedone
11-05-2011, 06:38 AM
What is wrong with the Cove and Mabar event items ?

This thread has already dramatically identified the gulf between those toons just capped and those who have been running about TR'ing and collecting Epics for two years

And even more dramatically identified the gulf in players opinions about screening toons for the tougher Epics.

Surely letting those players who want to join in with Epics catch up by stocking up on event items is a good thing.

Ive heard some describe these items as ''welfare Epics'' oh come on please ?

I was in groups that failed E Chrono twice this week because the party wasnt strong enough. Also players arent swapping weapons to deal ''purple'' damage to the Devestator..i believe that is a way to muck up the creatures regen..if not i'm sure someone will correct me fairly rapidly

Then again i wasted three hours last night failing E Chrono and E Dragon because after we had waited a long time to collect two really strong groups we promptly got slaughtered by the lag.

Seems i cant win ATM..honestly that is the first time i have ever thrown away a whole session with Epic fails caused by lag..What is going on their ? why was the lag so bad last night i thought Mabar had finished

dTarkanan
11-05-2011, 06:50 AM
O M G

Looool....maybe the Litany???? Do you know what Litany of the Dead is? If the litany doesn't even out their strength score, the Greater Bold Trinket is more DPS. If it does even out their strength, the trinket is still slightly more dps against non-evasion/electrically resistant mobs, unless the number is evened out to a two-fer from the x1.5 str on a THF. This is assuming of course that they're not using regular charged gauntlets or tinker's gloves- a safe assumption, as they probably have the Brawling gloves if they've been farming out the cove.

krackythehoodedone
11-05-2011, 07:00 AM
Yeah but i'd lose 20 hit points if i swapped out Litany..when i get a +4 con tome maybe..but yes the GBT could have a better DPS profile than Litany

sweez
11-05-2011, 08:05 AM
I was in groups that failed E Chrono twice this week because the party wasnt strong enough. Also players arent swapping weapons to deal ''purple'' damage to the Devestator..i believe that is a way to muck up the creatures regen..if not i'm sure someone will correct me fairly rapidly

Yeah hitting him with the opposite element breaks his regen... but in the group I was with you, that didn't help, I was scrolling people with elemental weapons on my bard as CAD changed forms, but the DPS wasn't good enough and the tank kinda sucked heh.

grgurius
11-05-2011, 08:09 AM
O M G

Looool....maybe the Litany???? Do you know what Litany of the Dead is?

O M G: you should get it instead wearing "Lesser Cunning Trinket"...looooooool



Yeah, what are those people thinking, litany drops like crazy, every time you open that warded chest there is like 6 or 7 of them in there. Cmon man, do you even think before you post.

And fizzy don't you find i funny that, according to your PMs, you feel insulted for being called a noob yet you have no problem calling people noobs for not having chars decked out in epic and end game raid gear.

PS
I'm really sorry that my choice of classes i play does not meet your high standards.

Ghibly
11-05-2011, 08:42 AM
I'm really sorry that my choice of classes i play does not meet your high standards.
Hey Gruggy...don't be sorry for that...we won't have problems anymore.

I come in peace

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/23277_336888154236_6949_n.jpg

altrocks
11-05-2011, 01:57 PM
Someone told me once that those where not noobs but newbs........... noobs are those who are not willing to learn.

Newbs, noobs, nubs, n00bs, whatever. There's a lot of freshly capped toons of new players on Khyber these days and they're picking things up very quickly with minimal guidance. Yes, they are horrible at first, but I see more questions about changing builds, using LR hearts and what equipment sets people use than ever before. Players do care and they are learning.

Malky
11-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Oh and my main is a PM...I wouldn't wear a Mabar cloak...never.

I guess nobody would change you view , but still : such reactions are blatantly showing that you enjoy snobism. Historically you might now that snobism has always been associated with poor efficiency and degeneration.

Lemme guess : according to you the fabricator set is junk right ? too easy to come by obviously... huh well the fact that it has the exact same bonus as the shintao set, while being like ten times easier to acquire means that it's junk anyway.

Lack of empathy usually leads to things going wrong, hopefully servers aren't populated only by people like you. I just hope things keep on going that way...

NaturalHazard
11-05-2011, 06:50 PM
Newbs, noobs, nubs, n00bs, whatever. There's a lot of freshly capped toons of new players on Khyber these days and they're picking things up very quickly with minimal guidance. Yes, they are horrible at first, but I see more questions about changing builds, using LR hearts and what equipment sets people use than ever before. Players do care and they are learning.

problem is, we do have people giving them the wrong advice, you know those kinds of people who have lfms up for tod and refuse a guy who has tanked horoth 80+ times on his paladin because its got a 2 monk splash, and requires clerics to come to meridia and prove that they have a healing aura before he lets them in the group............ I shudder to think what this *expert* is telling the newer players who inevitably make up his groups because the more experianced lose patience with him and put up their own lfms or go and do something else.

Kmnh
11-05-2011, 07:01 PM
My first thoughts are "good riddance". The scroll system is so broken it's not even funny.

I'm sad that the spot in the game that best rewarded effort is dying, but hopefully that effort will be devoted to more group-friendly stuff, instead of silly solo-farming.

NaturalHazard
11-05-2011, 07:11 PM
My first thoughts are "good riddance". The scroll system is so broken it's not even funny.

I'm sad that the spot in the game that best rewarded effort is dying, but hopefully that effort will be devoted to more group-friendly stuff, instead of silly solo-farming.

True you would think that actually completing quests/raids would be more rewarding than repeatedly raping an entrance hallway over and over, and over, and over?

sephiroth1084
11-07-2011, 10:57 AM
A couple of posts above yours I have basically said as it stands now I no longer have problems with the implementation of this update.

Effectively the change removes scroll farming/grinding call it what you will from the desert epics, run wiz king to completion a few times with some friends and get the three scrolls you need.

As for not changing the scrolls from Chronoscope for example... I don't see a problem with making the change across the board, the mechanics are there for the change already, unless you are actually scroll farming with a blue bar you are unlikely to get the scrolls you want through pure luck running epic chrono to completion with a 12 man team, until well after you have the seals and shards for the particular items.

Remove scroll farming completely from the game, that is where people get mega rich through scroll farming, sad thing is you don't have to be uber to do it, a first life wizard/sorc built to the specs to actually farm the quests can be as efficient as a completionist its just all about knowing what you are doing the few places to stand, what to kill first and some time/ability to repeat things over and over.

How about this - Remove the existing scrolls from the game for all content, make existing scrolls either Left/centre or right for said content, take all the three pieces to epic altar and exchange Left centre and right into scroll of your choice.

Now the mechanic is now there to effectively remove scroll farming from DDO, is it a good thing or bad thing? To the average Joe Bloggs its a good thing, to those who are mega rich and want to keep getting richer via scroll farming not so good.

Now alot of people might think maybe I'm bitter about losing my money making ability, but I have farmed chrono a very small amount and it is not difficult, so no not really. To be honest I had barely logged onto my scroll farmer in months and only did the occasional farm for an hour or so when I was expressly bored or wanted a bit of alone time hehe.
The system doesn't remove scroll farming--you still need to actually get scrolls, and it's still unlikely for one to drop for you during a run of a particular quest or raid. You want Chrono scrolls treated the same way as deserts? What does that accomplish? You would likely never be able to buy Chrono scrolls, because anyone that had 3 would trade them in for the one they want, instead of looking to sell the ones they have and don't need for those they do.

Having expensive items to use in place of coin is a reasonable system in the game. Your Joe Blogger can go run Chronos until he pulls a scroll, can try trading items from other content for them (Large Scales and Red Scales, scrolls from other epics, etc...) or can try buying them for plat. Farming serves some purpose in the game as something to do when not grouping or soloing quests. Sure, I'd rather not have to try farming quests for scrolls, but I don't much now anyway.

I just don't see a problem with scrolls being somewhat difficult to obtain in the non-desert epics, where there are not many options for what you're going to get. None are exceptionally rare, and most are on the market somewhere for some price.

emptysands
11-07-2011, 02:29 PM
The system doesn't remove scroll farming--you still need to actually get scrolls, and it's still unlikely for one to drop for you during a run of a particular quest or raid. You want Chrono scrolls treated the same way as deserts? What does that accomplish? You would likely never be able to buy Chrono scrolls, because anyone that had 3 would trade them in for the one they want, instead of looking to sell the ones they have and don't need for those they do.


Takes a couple hours to consistently get 3 scrolls from Chrono. Likely if this mechanism was introduced to Chrono all scrolls would move towards what the market valued 2 hours of farm time.

Unless they gifted trash scrolls to guildies/friends, most farmers would likely horde them and only sell the worthwhile scrolls.

For a random player there is what 100 kills per average Chrono run, so 1/12% chance of a scroll. If they don't/can't buy a scroll or three it's like to take a long while before they can get any three without farming.

Kmnh
11-07-2011, 03:00 PM
True you would think that actually completing quests/raids would be more rewarding than repeatedly raping an entrance hallway over and over, and over, and over?

It usually is. What makes people run the entrance over and over is the timer - Once you complete the quest, you can't farm it anymore.

It was common practice to clear a dq1 all the way to the end fight and then put up an lfm for people who want to loot the chests.

As for the people farming the gnolls on wizking... well, that's nowhere close to being efficient, when compared to soloing most of dq1.

Qezuzu
11-08-2011, 08:18 AM
At first I was like "Well that sucks for people that farmed hours or made huge trades for those scrolls."

Then I was like "Mother of god, I can get an Epic Staff of Arcane Power and Lion-headed Belt Buckle for my sorc."

altrocks
11-08-2011, 01:20 PM
At first I was like "Well that sucks for people that farmed hours or made huge trades for those scrolls."

Then I was like "Mother of god, I can get an Epic Staff of Arcane Power and Lion-headed Belt Buckle for my sorc."

I have trouble understanding why people who farmed scrolls are having so much hate for this. I would think the people who traded you 30 FRDS for a rare scroll would be the ones who would be upset. You have a big bag full of scrolls that are actually useful now and you can use for yourself or sell to people for profit you would not have otherwise had. I'm glad some people are realizing it. Once it goes live tomorrow, I'm sure many others will figure it out, too.

jejeba86
11-08-2011, 05:28 PM
One word: egocentrism.

sephiroth1084
11-08-2011, 09:19 PM
Takes a couple hours to consistently get 3 scrolls from Chrono. Likely if this mechanism was introduced to Chrono all scrolls would move towards what the market valued 2 hours of farm time.

Unless they gifted trash scrolls to guildies/friends, most farmers would likely horde them and only sell the worthwhile scrolls.

For a random player there is what 100 kills per average Chrono run, so 1/12% chance of a scroll. If they don't/can't buy a scroll or three it's like to take a long while before they can get any three without farming.
Honestly, still don't see the problem. Should red scales become much easier to get to drive their price down?

If anything, I'd rather give the community some time to try out the desert system, and see how everything stabilizes then consider applying the system to other places. In the case of Chrono, I'd think that simply increasing the droprate on scrolls would be a better solution, maybe using a formal that incorporates party size, such that someone soloing has about as much chance to get a scroll as they do now, but a group of 12 will see more scrolls drop.

Micron
11-09-2011, 03:47 AM
I don't think the scroll swap is an ideal solution (I'd go with 5 scrolls rather than 3 to start with) and I expect it to change. However I'm in a guild that has run all epics, with the exception of Sands - for the obvious reasons that everybody states. Now I might get them to run my favourite pack on epic with me, so it must be a good thing.

You still need the seal and the shard so it's not like a giveaway.

And no I wouldn't introduce this for the other adventure packs. The main reason why this makes sense for Sands is the sheer number of items and subsequently the reduced change to get the scroll you want.

NaturalHazard
11-09-2011, 06:09 AM
. In the case of Chrono, I'd think that simply increasing the droprate on scrolls would be a better solution, maybe using a formal that incorporates party size, such that someone soloing has about as much chance to get a scroll as they do now, but a group of 12 will see more scrolls drop.

I like this idea, I find running the quests to be more fun than scroll farming, and it will make me complete on the charactor right then and there more, rather than wait guys I have to switch so I can use this toon to scroll farm over the next three days.