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Shade
10-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Want to get this out early, as we already know all the epic item stats from the barter ui (Which im not a fan of, the fun of exploration and discovery is destroyed by this, but thats for another topic)

Epic Mournland Weapons.
(Greataxe used for comparison, but ideas apply to all 3)

Whats it good for:
Well it's obviously for undead, the desription bluntly says so. And being there are no blunt options, its for the rather uncommon non skeleton/lich undeads. Ok thats cool, fun to have a weapon specificly for 1 subset of enemies (the old, ESoS being the only thing we carry days should come to an end)

Why it fails at that:
It's VERY inferior to whats imo, one of the most common and popular weapons in the game: a min level 12 triple pos greataxe. I have been recommending a t2 version of this to all new players as there first greensteel for years, and they listened =) So it's EXTREMELY common. Most of them eventaully upgraded it to tier3. I personally own 3 of them.

So we will compare against that using barrage compare (goggle it, awesome flawless tool for comparing like weapon dmg):
Triple pos Greataxe:
3d6 +75 (moderate figure for a buffed epic ready fighter/paladin/bbn/etc)
Bonus dice:
+6d6 greater disp, +2d6 holy, +1d6 pure good
crit dice:
+4d6 burst, +4d6 blast crit
20 dice:
+4d6 on 20 blast
+100 on 20 disruption
Total DPS vs 100% fort zombie:
Final Averaged Swing
119.65 = 81.225(Weapon) + 38.425(Bonus)

Tier 3 epic mournlode:
2d12 + 83 (76 base, +2 righteous, +4 GUB, +1 extreme power augment on t3)
Bonus dice:
+3d6 GUB, +1d6 light burst effect
Crit dice:
+2d10 light burst
Proc dice:
2% radiant burst at ~350 average dmg
Total DPS vs 100% fort zombie:
Final Averaged Swing
112.25 = 91.2(Weapon) + 21.05(Bonus)

Tier3 very hard to acquire ml 20 EPIC (I would hope so give the seemingly high cost) weapon does WORSE damage then a VERY COMMON level 12 weapon..

Non dmg mods:
mournlode blinds on a 20: Eh rather unimportant on undead, being they cant be sneaked attack anyways (for the most part, 100% fort and all)
vs
Raise dead clicky: ULTRA useful to most melee, who otherwise have no way to raise party members. Better overall then the blind effect imo.

Suggested fix:
Tier 1 - good as is. Assuming it's easy to get the tier1.

Tier 2 - Not much of an upgrade:
Add: +8 enhancement

Tier 3 - Very weak upgrade, just a slot? While I think the tier3 should be essentially ULTRA hard to acquire and mainly a "Epic achievement" piece of gear.. I also think a bit more dps wouldnt hurt:
Suggest upgrade:
Change Greater Undead bane to Epic Undead Bane - Epic banes REALLY should be the standard these days with melee being so vastly inferior to casters in so many facets of the game atm, they need some love.
Could instead go Greater Disruption like tri pos, adding a lot of DPS, but no extra +to hit.
keep red slot

Alernative:
The weaken undead effect (-20% fort) could be on tier3 making it a nice way to improve overall dps on say black abbot even if you arent breaking his blunt DR.

Mournlode Armor:
Chain Shirt:
Insanely awesome.
Rest:
Weak imo.

Why: The chain shirt gives you a -20% fort debuff on all undead. This is an insanely huge boost to DPS.. not just for rogues, but for everything, as critical hits deal huge damage, especially with all the seeker gear and ways to up multipliers we have at our disposal.

Suggested fixes:
Chain Shirt:
Move the weaken undead to tier2.. It's ultra powerful, you should need to work to get it. Tier1s are basically freebies as it stands.
Tier3:
Add exceptional int skills +3 and +1 (missing +2 vs a shroud item)
Tier3 is pretty lonely, and exceptional stat skills really aren't appearning on much items

Breastplate and Fullplate:
Tier2:
Remove the useless neg energy absorp.. I mean seriously? At lvl20 no one fights without deathward period. So its a useless effect aside from beholders - which lately are not appearing in any epic content anyways.
Replace it with the weaken undead effect to equalize the armor types. Doesn't make sense for the light armor to vastly superior.

Yea the fullplate does get that nice healers bounty effect the light/med dont get - but its fullplate, it comes at the cost of a big penalty to important skills like balance and jump, so its a fair trade off.
However given the power of that effect:
Suggest you move it to tier2 as well. Tier1 is way too front loaded on the fullplate. T2/T3 as now essentially does absolutely zero for anyone running epic given the fact AC isn't important there. (well the slot is useful, but there are many alternatives with 2 slots that are better and probably easier to get)

T3:
Add exceptional cha skills +3 and exceptional cha skills +1 (missing +2 vs a shroud item)
Tier3 is pretty lonely, and exceptional stat skills really aren't appearing on much items, and tanks sorely need more slots to fit intim bonuses.

More suggestions to come. Feel free to add yours to this thread.

Eladiun
10-20-2011, 11:01 AM
The Blinding Flash does seem out of place on an Undead Beater. From a lore perspective, I get the weapon of light thing but from a practicality stand point it's rather useless.

Epic Rock Boots: The DC 17 Fortitude on the Stone Prison Guard seems crazy low for an Epic item. It's the same as the ML10 hand wraps. I hope this is a copy paste thing because I don't see that being a useful proc without a higher DC.

ZeroTakenaka
10-20-2011, 11:40 AM
Shade's DPS data

You're forgetting that supposedly Radiant Blast has double proc rate and double damage vs. undead

Musouka
10-20-2011, 11:42 AM
The Blinding Flash does seem out of place on an Undead Beater. From a lore perspective, I get the weapon of light thing but from a practicality stand point it's rather useless.

Epic Rock Boots: The DC 17 Fortitude on the Stone Prison Guard seems crazy low for an Epic item. It's the same as the ML10 hand wraps. I hope this is a copy paste thing because I don't see that being a useful proc without a higher DC.

The undead beater seems like more fluff than practicality. Much like the Epic Ratkiller. I'm fine with weapons like this added to the game. Especially with the advent of Alchemical Crafting, you're not going to get very many that top the customization of those.

As for Shade's suggestions, I can't take any of them seriously anymore, especially because of how he treats other people and calls them noobs for buying scrolls and soon to be able to use them to trade for other scrolls. Opinions on the matter at hand are fine, but belittling people for something you don't agree with is another.

Eladiun
10-20-2011, 11:56 AM
Stone Prison is actually DC35. They raised it but never changed the description. I assume the guard is the same way.

That would be much better.

Eladiun
10-20-2011, 11:58 AM
As for Shade's suggestions, I can't take any of them seriously anymore, especially because of how he treats other people and calls them noobs for buying scrolls and soon to be able to use them to trade for other scrolls. Opinions on the matter at hand are fine, but belittling people for something you don't agree with is another.

Blah, blah, blah... the stay out of his threads.

LolWutRoflstomped
10-20-2011, 12:05 PM
The Blinding Flash does seem out of place on an Undead Beater. From a lore perspective, I get the weapon of light thing but from a practicality stand point it's rather useless.

Epic Rock Boots: The DC 17 Fortitude on the Stone Prison Guard seems crazy low for an Epic item. It's the same as the ML10 hand wraps. I hope this is a copy paste thing because I don't see that being a useful proc without a higher DC.

Stone Prison is actually DC35. They raised it but never changed the description. I assume the guard is the same way.

Shade
10-20-2011, 12:30 PM
As for Shade's suggestions, I can't take any of them seriously anymore, especially because of how he treats other people and calls them noobs for buying scrolls and soon to be able to use them to trade for other scrolls. Opinions on the matter at hand are fine, but belittling people for something you don't agree with is another.

1. I've never said that.

2. Judging a book by its cover. You cant judge a person based on 1 forum post.

Regardless I didn't post what you, said, and certaintly didnt belittle anyone. Such actions are against the forum rules and I have not broken any rules nor received any infractions lately.

And while I realise my opinion on said subject are very far into the minority, I'm not afraid to voice them and be judged on them. My opinions on a subject have nothing to do with my opinion on any specific players tho. Disagreements on such a aribitrary subject to me aren't a fair reason to judge anyone. Loot is a very small portion of this game, and definetely not worth such drama.

Shade
10-20-2011, 12:37 PM
You're forgetting that supposedly Radiant Blast has double proc rate and double damage vs. undead

No idea what your talking about on the proc rate.

For one light damage does not do double damage vs undead.

Does versus vampires sure. But my target as noted was a zombie.

Being there are zero epic vampires (that i know about, u12 may have some), and plenty of epic zombies, I think my target selection was rather fair.

dkyle
10-20-2011, 12:56 PM
No idea what your talking about on the proc rate.

For one light damage does not do double damage vs undead.

Light damage in general, no, but unless it has changed, Radiant Burst does do twice as much Light damage against undead. Like how Firewalls used to do double damage against undead. It doesn't show as purple because it's not due to a vulnerability. It just outputs twice as much damage when the target is undead.

I don't know about the proc rate. First I've heard of that.

TPICKRELL
10-20-2011, 01:06 PM
Light damage in general, no, but unless it has changed, Radiant Burst does do twice as much Light damage against undead. Like how Firewalls used to do double damage against undead. It doesn't show as purple because it's not due to a vulnerability. It just outputs twice as much damage when the target is undead.

I don't know about the proc rate. First I've heard of that.I can confirm this, My wraps of the endless light were procing for 700-800 against the Mabar undead last night. And I've seen 1500 against vampires.

ZeroTakenaka
10-20-2011, 01:23 PM
No idea what your talking about on the proc rate.

For one light damage does not do double damage vs undead.

Does versus vampires sure. But my target as noted was a zombie.

Being there are zero epic vampires (that i know about, u12 may have some), and plenty of epic zombies, I think my target selection was rather fair.

Pretty sure Radiant Blast has a hidden special ability to proc more often and and does more damage on undead like the Wraps of Endless Light.

kcru
10-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Pretty sure Radiant Blast has a hidden special ability to proc more often and and does more damage on undead like the Wraps of Endless Light.

Cleric Radiant Blast does double damage to undead. These items are probably modelled after it.

etelan
10-20-2011, 03:58 PM
Light damage in general, no, but unless it has changed, Radiant Burst does do twice as much Light damage against undead. Like how Firewalls used to do double damage against undead. It doesn't show as purple because it's not due to a vulnerability. It just outputs twice as much damage when the target is undead.

I don't know about the proc rate. First I've heard of that.

I think your right 350 is too low. Still... double that number and it still won't come out ahead of the greensteel if the 1/50 proc rate is accurate.

Shade
10-20-2011, 05:16 PM
Light damage in general, no, but unless it has changed, Radiant Burst does do twice as much Light damage against undead. Like how Firewalls used to do double damage against undead. It doesn't show as purple because it's not due to a vulnerability. It just outputs twice as much damage when the target is undead.

I don't know about the proc rate. First I've heard of that.
.

I don't really see any evidence of that. All reports i've heard match the numbers i posted.

So even if its double dmg, then its 175 dmg base.. Cuz they tested on undead.

Possible its been upraded. but unlikely, needs real data testing else well use the numbers that we have for now.

LeLoric
10-20-2011, 05:26 PM
I don't really see any evidence of that. All reports i've heard match the numbers i posted.

So even if its double dmg, then its 175 dmg base.. Cuz they tested on undead.

Possible its been upraded. but unlikely, needs real data testing else well use the numbers that we have for now.

Real data testing has already been done on the wraps the radiant blast does double damage to undead and always has. Light vulnerable undead double that amount further.

You can use the numbers you have for now but you are using the wrong numbers.

ZeroTakenaka
10-20-2011, 06:28 PM
I don't really see any evidence of that. All reports i've heard match the numbers i posted.

So even if its double dmg, then its 175 dmg base.. Cuz they tested on undead.

Possible its been upraded. but unlikely, needs real data testing else well use the numbers that we have for now.

It should do 700-800 damage on undead.

Shade
10-20-2011, 07:14 PM
It should do 700-800 damage on undead.

Like i said if you want to post some specific combat log screenshots of careful tests, do so.. And ill update the OPs number, until then...

Diyon
10-20-2011, 07:54 PM
Like i said if you want to post some specific combat log screenshots of careful tests, do so.. And ill update the OPs number, until then...

I don't have any screen shots, but I can add my voice that Radiant blast does double damage on undead, and even more on things like vampires. As I recall, a lot of people thought the double damage was just regular damage at first when they were released because they were still fighting undead in Mabar.

In any case its pretty easy to test, go beat on a training dummy and watch for the radiant blast damage, compare to the same hitting a zombie (or whatever).

Diyon
10-20-2011, 08:05 PM
Like i said if you want to post some specific combat log screenshots of careful tests, do so.. And ill update the OPs number, until then...

Here's an old thread on the subject, talking about the damage misconception and just a few posts in there's a SS with it dealing 1618 damage to a vampire in the combat log.

LeLoric
10-20-2011, 11:45 PM
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3887/screenshot00128g.jpg

751 dmg non light vulnerable undead.

Shade
10-21-2011, 04:32 AM
I don't have any screen shots, but I can add my voice that Radiant blast does double damage on undead, and even more on things like vampires. As I recall, a lot of people thought the double damage was just regular damage at first when they were released because they were still fighting undead in Mabar.

In any case its pretty easy to test, go beat on a training dummy and watch for the radiant blast damage, compare to the same hitting a zombie (or whatever).

Not that easy to test when you don't have said wraps. And the mournlode weapons are currently unavailable.

And what thread, you didnt provide a link. Not that hard to make a screenshot guys.

sirgog
10-21-2011, 04:50 AM
Not impressed with these anti-undead weapons. The only niche I can think of in which they excel is against ultra high AC undead - but there's none of them in the game (Raiyum is only a ~63 AC now, and has too much DR for these weapons to be used anyway).

The Velah beaters are solid but again a very narrow niche.

That said, some of the accessories are very solid.

Shade
10-21-2011, 06:40 AM
Epic Velah beaters DPS comparison:
Epic Colomel Falcion t3 vs
Lit2 falcion:
Blows it out of the water, as it should.

Epic Colomel Falcion t3 vs
ESoS:
Wins by a small margin:
Colomel:
4d4 +91 (Using an extreme dmg mod as ppl with ESoS are generaly very well geared, and ppl with ESoS fighting velah are generally very well buffed)
15-20/x2. Seeker 10 (epic mari wont be so hard to get with new scroll mech)
Bonus dice:
GDB: 3d6
Tidal Burst: D8 vs epic velah (if it works as it should)
Crit Dice:
2d8 vs velah
Proc Dice:
Crushing wave: 5% of 210 average
Corrosive Salt: 2% of 280 average
----
Final Averaged Swing
146.345 = 114.1(Weapon) + 32.245(Bonus)
(Vs Velah undebuffed, 50% fort)

ESoS:
5d6 +90 (Using an extreme dmg mod as ppl with ESoS are generaly very well geared, and ppl with ESoS fighting velah are generally very well buffed)
15-20/x3. Seeker 10 (epic mari wont be so hard to get with new scroll mech)
No bonus dice.
Final Averaged Swing
138.875 = 138.875(Weapon) + 0(Bonus)

Also didnt do glancing blows.. With those added, ESoS would win by a small margin. So other then twitch fighting, this isn't the new velah beater for a lot of players.

So about a 5% increase in the most 100% ideal scenario for the Calomel if you have no THF feats. ESoS easily wins if you debuff velah to 0% fort (which isn't that hard imo).

While this is a great weapon for that 1 encounter, i'd like to see it be a good weapon for all fire mobs also (atm it pales in comparison to a triple ice greensteel or alchemical for non dragons).. So some suggested tweaks:

Tier1:
Upgrade Tidal Burst:
2d6 cold base, double dmg to fire subtype (no changes to burst portion)
Move Crushing wave to tier2 (its WAY too front loaded and tier 2 is lonely)

Tier2:
Crushing wave moved here
Add Frost (standard d6 ice dmg)

Tier3:
Greater Dragon Bane becomes Epic Dragon Bane (Velah is REALLY freakin hard now and has insane hitpoints that takes too long, let us kill her faster if we work towards this)
Alternative:
Dragon rending (-20% fortification Dragons)
This would let this wepaon be ideal for velah over the ESoS, if not for personal DPS.. But for party DPS.

Diyon
10-21-2011, 08:00 AM
Here's an old thread on the subject, talking about the damage misconception and just a few posts in there's a SS with it dealing 1618 damage to a vampire in the combat log.


Gah sorry, I was multitasking and forgot to paste the link, here it is. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282530&highlight=endless+light+proc+rate

Shade
10-22-2011, 07:01 AM
Gah sorry, I was multitasking and forgot to paste the link, here it is. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282530&highlight=endless+light+proc+rate

thx. Looks interesting, but a bit dated.

Exorcist
10-22-2011, 10:29 AM
I love the idea of replacing the t3 with +cha skills.. That's the best idea I seen here yet.. Others are pretty fruitless imo... Ya sure, add a few more dps if necessary... But the armors need alot of work imo.. To be viable to other things out there... I think add +5 exceptional cha skills on the armor is where its at tho

Diyon
10-22-2011, 12:49 PM
thx. Looks interesting, but a bit dated.

A bit dated, but I'm almost 100% certain that nothing has been done to radiant blast.

Shade
10-26-2011, 10:31 AM
some minor updates to OP ideas.

Osedox
10-26-2011, 10:47 AM
I like the caster Items, however I think the tunic should have a Docent option, or it should be moved to a different item slot.

aerendhil
10-27-2011, 04:48 AM
add some sort of "False Life" (Greater or Superior) to "Epic Mournlode Fullplate (Tier 3) "