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cru121
10-09-2011, 08:28 AM
Prestige Enhancement
MT I

Prereq: CL 3 in any two classes, any metamagic feat
Grants: +1 caster level for each class (only CL, not access to higher level spells)

MT II

Prereq: CL 5 in two classes, MT I, lvl 12
Grants: +3 CL

MT II

Prereq: CL 8 in two classes, MT II, lvl 18
Grants: +5 CL

Other perks that can be added:

Extra SP
Spells cost less SP
Metamagic feats cost less SP
Faster casting
When different abilities control DC of spells, use the higher for both classes
Stack class levels for the purposes of taking higher level class enhancements

Talias006
10-09-2011, 11:18 PM
At best, MT I would be achievable at level 10?
5 levels Wizard (CL3)
5 levels Cleric (CL3)

Is this what you had in mind?

Maybe change it to CL2 in 2 separate classes to possibly keep it in the 6/12/18 format?
But that wouldn't work for Sorcerer/Favored Soul MT's, as they would be level 8?
Sorcerer/Cleric would be level 7, as would be Wizard/Favored Soul.

What about Bard/Artificer? I'm no expert on their spell levels acquired.

gamj
10-09-2011, 11:37 PM
CL = Caster Level.

Caster Level is exactly that.. the level in your casting class.

CL3 = Level 3.

Level 3 + Level 3 = Level 6.

He didn't say Spell Level.

Bodic
10-09-2011, 11:43 PM
CL = Caster Level.

Caster Level is exactly that.. the level in your casting class.

CL3 = Level 3.

Level 3 + Level 3 = Level 6.

He didn't say Spell Level.

your caster levels in DDO are from 1 to 9 class levels are not the same as casting levels

and to the OP
/NO

Tunst
10-09-2011, 11:53 PM
your caster levels in DDO are from 1 to 9 class levels are not the same as casting levels

and to the OP
/NO

caster level is the level of your caster.
my caster is a sorc and is level 20.
her caster level is 20.


but yeah... +5 cl is a bit high.

Grenada
10-10-2011, 12:11 AM
caster level is the level of your caster.
my caster is a sorc and is level 20.
her caster level is 20.


but yeah... +5 cl is a bit high.

actually, it's too low for this sort of build. Worse even than mystic theurge was in pnp. (pnp mystic theurge was cl 17 in both her classes, while this build would be 13 in one, 15 in the other; 13 in both; or 14 in both, depending on build choice)

So yeah, too weak. Make it stronger and I'll /sign

(try +1, +5, +8)

Musouka
10-10-2011, 12:54 AM
Eh /not signed.

It will still never match the power of a pure, and would just be a hindrance.

learst
10-10-2011, 01:14 AM
I thought this was a call out to the profilic DDO forumite and lore-keeper, Mystic Theurge (http://forums.ddo.com/member.php?u=17499).

cru121
10-10-2011, 04:53 AM
It will still never match the power of a pure, and would just be a hindrance.

Yeah. But let's face reality. Lot of wild builds there. This could make them less bad.

Gorbadoc
10-10-2011, 05:10 AM
actually, it's too low for this sort of build. Worse even than mystic theurge was in pnp. (pnp mystic theurge was cl 17 in both her classes, while this build would be 13 in one, 15 in the other; 13 in both; or 14 in both, depending on build choice)

So yeah, too weak. Make it stronger and I'll /sign

(try +1, +5, +8)

This.

The spell progression of a two-caster-class split would be a bit like that of a bard. Spells from each of two classes would be available, but with a cap of spell level 6. An 8 wizard/12 cleric, for example, would be able to cast Blade Barrier and Heal as a 20th cleric AND pick up the second tier of Radiant Servant. That is, assuming it's +8 CL at tier 3.

I like how the OP's idea has potential to allow interesting hybrid caster builds. In the 8wiz/12cleric example, though, the wizard levels look kind of pointless. Lobbing level 4 spells at caster-level 16 isn't impressive at character level 20. It has the same watered-down feeling I get from the PnP Mystic Theurge.

Of course, someone might take a page out of the bard book and try to have decent spells AND non-spell abilities. I can just imagine someone rolling a wacky hybrid healing aura tank with 12 levels of cleric and 8 levels of either paladin or ranger. After all, who doesn't want a DPS machine that constantly exudes healing and that can unload level 20 Mass Cure Mods and Heals in a pinch?

Musouka
10-10-2011, 10:23 AM
Gorbadoc,

You seem to be forgetting that these prestige enhancements will cost AP, and that there will be requirements aside from just having levels in each class. Which could be feats and more AP spent on other enhancements.

Then you would still also be limited on spell bonus damage enhancements, as you wont have full actual caster levels in one or the other. At most doing what 35% bonus arcane damage? 20% heal/divine damage? Then the crit enhancements will also still be lacking, and you'll really HAVE to choose what you're going to do. You can't just max out them all, even if it is a hybrid.

This prestige would be lackluster in every way possible, even if they did give it more of a boost to bonus CL. It is very limited in spells, most likely not getting any 7-9th level spells, and very low damage for those that you do get, especially without the enhancements. Those mass cure mods are going to do what? 50 HP? Turn on all of your metamagics, then they will heal good, but you'll also be lacking in SP very soon.

voodoogroves
10-10-2011, 10:36 AM
actually, it's too low for this sort of build. Worse even than mystic theurge was in pnp. (pnp mystic theurge was cl 17 in both her classes, while this build would be 13 in one, 15 in the other; 13 in both; or 14 in both, depending on build choice)


In PNP Mystic Theurge is either (a) trash or (b) abused like crazy with early entry tricks.

(a) is pointless and ends up making a gimp (though it can be fun and flavorful)
(b) any of the dual casting classes that can stack both can get into the realm of serious overkill

Grenada
10-10-2011, 01:05 PM
You all seem to be forgetting that mystic theurge not only increases your caster level, but also grants you additional spells in each of your classes.

So at tier 3, you would get a whole bunch of spells as if your level in your casting classes had increased.


So while your DCs may suck, you would have an insane number of spells to use. (possibly a level 9 spell in each of your classes, assuming +8 to each caster class level.)

Now, doesn't that sound fun?

Not the best perhaps in anything, but a solid solo build nonetheless.


High end players won't probably use it, but people who enjoy questing over raiding would enjoy this build.

Rdonaccount
10-10-2011, 01:15 PM
BB and heal both cap at CL:15.

There is no need for pre's that are designed specifically for wacky builds. If you want to cast both arcane and divine spells, artificer, bard and eventually druid get various mixes of those spells.

That being said, I think there is something to say for making some easy-to-achieve pre's (read: no feat cost and low AP requirement) that don't have the power of the "best" pre's in the class, to allow people with builds more focused on flavor to keep up.

Musouka
10-10-2011, 01:25 PM
You all seem to be forgetting that mystic theurge not only increases your caster level, but also grants you additional spells in each of your classes.

So at tier 3, you would get a whole bunch of spells as if your level in your casting classes had increased.


That would be incredibly hard to implement, as the prestige is enhancement based, and pnp version is actually a class you take levels in. Also we have a SP system in the game, not a spells per day system like pnp.

As you can see with Savants, they gave us SLAs, they didn't give us added spells. Same with Archmage.

Grenada
10-10-2011, 01:31 PM
That would be incredibly hard to implement, as the prestige is enhancement based, and pnp version is actually a class you take levels in. Also we have a SP system in the game, not a spells per day system like pnp.

As you can see with Savants, they gave us SLAs, they didn't give us added spells. Same with Archmage.

Yeah, I never said it could be implemented with ease.

Just saw a couple posts where people thought it only increased effective caster level, rather than what it actually does (which is increase spells known).

There's no way they could implement it the way they do other caster PrEs and have anyone but those who don't know it's that bad use it.

And I wasn't talking about spells per day, I was talking about spells known.

Enoach
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
I have always been fond of the Mystic Theurge myself as its true design was to have greater access and more Spells - Great way to Cover two bases at the same time. But we still lack what I feel is a very Key Feat - Practiced Spell Caster.

Without this an MT at level 16 (3 Divine/3 Arcane) is Equal to a Level 13 Divine and Level 13 Arcane in Spell Power/Level and DC/Spell Pen. Practiced Spell Caster removed the DC Penalty.

Without this feat in game I feel it would cause this route to be too limited.

Terminus-Est
10-10-2011, 02:23 PM
In PNP, Mystic Theurge is an 'easy' class to get into because there are no skill or feat requirements. But the class requirement is heavy.

Since the main benefit (advancing two casting levels at once) is impossible to easily code in DDO, the DDO version should be well, even easier.

As presented, if the CL bonuses stack (they should) at level 20 w/ 10/10 I'd have a CL 19/19. Thats not too terrible, but the loss of spells known is.

Perhaps we can approach this from another angle.

You get Tier 3 MT when you have 5 levels in a spellcasting class, not 18.

Huh?

Heres how it works.

My 15 cleric, 5 sorcerer can take MT 1-2 as a cleric and MT 1-2-3 as a sorcerer.

Each tier of MT has one requirement a minimum number of other class levels. Each MT is class specific, so I can have Cleric MT and Sorc MT at the same time.

To take MT 1 you must have at least one other caster level. (Min CL 6)
To take MT 2 you must have five other caster level. (Min CL 12)
To take MT 3 you must have ten other caster levels. (Min CL 18)

Okay, so what do they do?

Sorcerer Mystic Theurge I

Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Progression: 16 action points
Requires One of: Cleric Level 1, Favored Soul Level 1

Available to Sorcerer class level 5
You have begun to blend your arcane and divine training. You gain +2 caster levels when casting sorcerer spells. You gain 100 spell points as your mind expands, and now have the ability to acquire many first level spell-like abilities.
This enhancement automatically grants access to the following: (purchasable for small amount of AP)

Inherent Shield
Inherent Master's Touch
Inherent Expeditious Retreat
Inherent Detect Secret Doors
Inherent Merfolk's Blessing
Inherent Jump
Inherent Tumble
Inherent Feather Fall
Inherent Night Shield
Inherent Protection from Evil
Inherent Magic Missile


Sorcerer Mystic Theurge II

Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Progression: 42 action points
Requires One of: Cleric class level 5, Favored Soul class level 5
Requires All of: Sorcerer Mystic Theurge I
Available to Sorcerer class level 5
You have continued to blend the potency of the Weave with your divine inspiration. You gain an additional +3 caster levels when casting sorcerer spells. You gain 75 spell points as your mind expands, and now have the ability to acquire many second and third level spell-like abilities.
This enhancement automatically grants access to the following:

Inherent Resist Energy
Inherent See Invisibility
Inherent Blur
Inherent Invisibility
Inherent False Life
Inherent Bear's/Bull's/Cat's/Eagle's/Fox's/Owl's
Inherent Haste
Inherent Magic Circle Against Evil
Inherent Protection from Energy
Inherent Heroism
Inherent Rage
Inherent Displacement
Inherent Water Breathing


Sorcerer Mystic Theurge III

Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Progression: 66 action points
Requires One of: Cleric class level 10, Favored Soul class level 10
Requires All of: Sorcerer Mystic Theurge II
Available to Sorcerer class level 5
You have completed your unique path of blending both sources of power that compose your life. You gain an additional +5 caster levels when casting Sorcerer spells. You gain an additional 100 spell points as your mastery is sealed and can acquire many fourth and fifth level spell-like abilities.
This enhancement automatically grants access to the following:

Inherent Prismatic Ray
Inherent Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
Inherent Stoneskin
Inherent Fire Shield
Inherent Enervation
Inherent Protection from Elements
Inherent Teleport
Inherent Summon Monster V


Well, thats my first pass at the idea. I gave them buffs primarily as their spell-like abilities since that is what MT's do in PNP, be the buff-master extraordinare; even moreso than Bards. The divine side of things would have a mix of healing/buffs/signature DPS spells (Raise Dead and Slaying living, but BB is level 6, so no dice). Should I detail the divine side of things?

Gorbadoc
10-10-2011, 04:14 PM
I have always been fond of the Mystic Theurge myself as its true design was to have greater access and more Spells - Great way to Cover two bases at the same time.

That's part of the trap of Mystic Theurge in PnP. The part in red is false: You cover two bases-- poorly-- but you do NOT cover them both at the same time: You can still cast only one spell at a time. Every round of combat, you can be EITHER a weak wizard OR a weak cleric, but not both.

Gorbadoc
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Gorbadoc,

You seem to be forgetting that these prestige enhancements will cost AP, and that there will be requirements aside from just having levels in each class. Which could be feats and more AP spent on other enhancements.

Then you would still also be limited on spell bonus damage enhancements, as you wont have full actual caster levels in one or the other. At most doing what 35% bonus arcane damage? 20% heal/divine damage? Then the crit enhancements will also still be lacking, and you'll really HAVE to choose what you're going to do. You can't just max out them all, even if it is a hybrid.

This prestige would be lackluster in every way possible, even if they did give it more of a boost to bonus CL. It is very limited in spells, most likely not getting any 7-9th level spells, and very low damage for those that you do get, especially without the enhancements. Those mass cure mods are going to do what? 50 HP? Turn on all of your metamagics, then they will heal good, but you'll also be lacking in SP very soon.
Please don't tell us about my mind; I know it well.

"Forget" is the wrong word. The truth is, I don't care about AP's. They are important, of course, but they're details; AP costs can be made numerically bigger or smaller to match the power of an enhancement.

Your point about the PrE being lackluster is far more interesting. I don't have a good response. Every class has at least one "obvious" build-- something that will be solid at what it's supposed to do, though it requires little imagination to design. Wizard/Cleric seems like the "obvious" build for Mystic Theurge, but I have to agree: The wiz/cleric combo looks pointless with or without this suggested PrE.

Again, though, I still like the idea of enabling goofy hybrid caster builds. Maybe some extra features would help?