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View Full Version : New DDO Store item: BtC to BtA conversion



Chaos000
10-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Here's something I would like to see at the turbine store taking a Bound to Character item and converting it to Bound to Account.

Obviously some items would have certain limitations such as BtA (BtC on equip) but others would be a permanent BtA for items that were BtC before it was changed to BtA later.

Not too game breaking, if the turbine point cost was based off of min lvl that might help. I would love to complete some Red Fens set bonuses for some of my new characters and there are some worthless characters I would like to start fresh but loathe to delete because they have some hard to get items on them (i.e. still have a sword of shadows sitting in the bank gathering dust on my rogue/bank toon)

patang01
10-07-2011, 11:54 AM
/signed

R0cksteady
10-07-2011, 11:56 AM
/Sign

Why not? So many of my characters have been broken thanks to nerfs, might as well pass gear to my useful toons.

Splotto
10-07-2011, 11:58 AM
Hello:

You could also just incorporate this idea into the crafting system.

At higher levels of crafting there would be a recipe/disjunction that would modify or strip an item of it's BtC trait.

smeggy1384
10-07-2011, 12:06 PM
It could be like the system used for binding items with dragonshards, X per level. No need for a bunch of different token types. Would really be nice for the red fens like you mentioned, got some alts i'd love to farm the gear there for with my arti.

somenewnoob
10-07-2011, 12:07 PM
It could be like the system used for binding items with dragonshards, X per level. No need for a bunch of different token types. Would really be nice for the red fens like you mentioned, got some alts i'd love to farm the gear there for with my arti.

Yep using existing ingredients for a stone of change to make it BTA would be nice. Just please.....NO MORE NEW INGREDIENTS!! lol

/signed

gloopygloop
10-07-2011, 12:09 PM
I would only /sign this if I had the opportunity to grind for an entirely new set of collectables or ingredients (hopefully both!) that can take up extra room in my already full and jumbled bags that can't be sorted.

R0cksteady
10-07-2011, 12:11 PM
I would only /sign this if I had the opportunity to grind for an entirely new set of collectables or ingredients (hopefully both!) that can take up extra room in my already full and jumbled bags that can't be sorted.

It's ok, you can het bags off of the DDO store. Just get 4 or 5 to keep things organized!

Jandric
10-07-2011, 12:14 PM
No. BtC is a balancing element of the game. Yugo Pots, Silver Flame Pots, Epic Items, and upgraded items are BtC for a reason.

Elaril
10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
This might be ok if it were one time use and the item re-bound to its character upon equip.

Chette
10-07-2011, 12:18 PM
Not signed, except for Cannith crafting items.

Raid loot should be bind to character. It's no reasonable for me to be able to create a level 4 character today, have it level 20 by the end of the weekend, and then pass it a full set of BTA raid loot making it comparable to characters that have been running raids for months, or longer.

Making it possible to convert BTC loot into BTA loot will also prevent any sharing of loot. Why shouldn't I loot the madstone boots on my cleric, or the staff of the petitioner on my fighter? I might roll up a new character one day, and want to be able to pass these.

Raid loot sharing, and need before greed, is one of the aspects of DDO that sets it apart from other MMOs. Making it possible to turn all raid loot into BTA loot, even if just once, will completely destroy that.

Maxou69
10-07-2011, 12:21 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

LupusVai
10-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I can only imagine the loot drama threads this would create. While this wouldnt be so much of an issue for end reward lists it would certainly cause upsets with raid chest loot.

It would encourage people to loot everything to pass to their alts rather than put up for roll items that they can't use.

zorander6
10-07-2011, 12:29 PM
If I could change all the stuff I BTC at the stone of change that would be great. I'm happy with BTA on those....yeah I didn't know better at the time.

gloopygloop
10-07-2011, 12:32 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

Actually, allowing BtC items to be transferred to another character would have a much bigger impact on gameplay than selling +3 tomes in the store. Right now, I give away most of my BtC raid loot just because that character can't use it. I'd be a lot less likely to give away a Torc when my Fighter pulls it if I knew I could give it to my new Sorc.

Reasonable people could disagree on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it's certainly much more significant than selling +3 tomes.

dkyle
10-07-2011, 12:32 PM
/not signed

Enormous amount of "paying for power" that does not belong in the store.

Furthermore, any general ability to turn BtC into BtA would also kill the practice of putting things up for roll. I would miss that aspect of the community.


You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

Absolutely. BtC is a major limitation of Raid loot, and the Torc is one of the most game-changingly powerful pieces of loot there is. But then again, I also think putting +3 tomes in the store is a terrible thing, too...

Chette
10-07-2011, 01:08 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

A torc is like 100 times better than a complete set of +3 tomes, so...yes.

Selling +3 tomes in the store gives people with a fat wallet an easy button, but it doesn't do anything to the rest of us, so who really gives a fart. Making it so that nobody will every put anything up for roll ever again has a significant negative effect on the entire game.

patang01
10-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Hello:

You could also just incorporate this idea into the crafting system.

At higher levels of crafting there would be a recipe/disjunction that would modify or strip an item of it's BtC trait.

Or that you can use a stone of cleansing from shroud for the same purpose.

patang01
10-07-2011, 01:11 PM
No. BtC is a balancing element of the game. Yugo Pots, Silver Flame Pots, Epic Items, and upgraded items are BtC for a reason.

It should naturally be limited to items only, not pots and such that requires favor.

Jandric
10-07-2011, 01:11 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

Yes, and by quite a lot.

Jandric
10-07-2011, 01:13 PM
a Torc Is Like 100 Times Better Than A Complete Set Of +3 Tomes, So...yes.

Selling +3 Tomes In The Store Gives People With A Fat Wallet An Easy Button, But It Doesn't Do Anything To The Rest Of Us, So Who Really Gives A Fart. Making It So That Nobody Will Every Put Anything Up For Roll Ever Again Has A Significant Negative Effect On The Entire Game.

+1

Thrudh
10-07-2011, 01:19 PM
This would completely destroy all raid loot sharing... plus, you could outfit your other characters without ever taking them into raids.

So no, not signed.

You need to learn how to raid with your melee, not just skip all raids with him, and instead farm for loot with your caster.

Thrudh
10-07-2011, 01:23 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

Yes.

JOTMON
10-07-2011, 01:24 PM
Why require the DDO store, they can just make everything BTA or unbound now.
Add a purchase reset Raid timer token, when your toons are on timer.
Add a purchase Epic ready capped toon fully geared from the DDO store so you dont have to play and can just log on and brag about how uber you are.

Maxou69
10-07-2011, 01:37 PM
Yeah I was wrong, a TORC is better than a +3 tome indeed. I guess I'm still upset about the +3 tome in store. +3 tomes are raid loot and they sell raid loot now... but I'm off topic

ainmosni
10-07-2011, 01:46 PM
You can now buy a full set of +3 tomes for 30$.

Are you saying that paying 15$ to give my TORC to another toon is more game breaking?

Yes.

+3 tomes do not turn a toon from a total gimp to an unkillable machine with godlike power. it's one point TOWARDS (keep in mind- even numbers needed!)

20 hitpoints
+1 to-hit
+1 damage
30 spellpoints
+1 AC
+1 saves
+1 umd



other stuff. it's not game breaking at all. it's BS they're selling it in the store just because it's raid loot. (took me months to grind my tomes, took the next guy 15 seconds of entering credit card info)

a torc, on the other hand..... when coupled with a shield, an unkillable godlike machine sounds a bit more realistic.....

Chaos000
10-07-2011, 01:48 PM
No. BtC is a balancing element of the game. Yugo Pots, Silver Flame Pots, Epic Items, and upgraded items are BtC for a reason.

The point was that if an item is BtC for a balancing reason, it could either be ineligible for BTA conversion or it would be BTA (BTC upon equip) similar to crafting unbound items.

Because TRing is in place it's not unheard of for a fighter to loot something they can't use right at this moment for the sake of using it in a future life. (I thought that was the whole point of 20 runs for loot lists?)

I think 20 raid runs would be less annoying for someone if they had the option to pass something useful to a different character they had. I'd suggest BTC upon equip for all raid items but that would de-rail the thread :)

so... Store bought conversion. I for one am willing to pay.

Bargol
10-07-2011, 01:49 PM
Yep using existing ingredients for a stone of change to make it BTA would be nice. Just please.....NO MORE NEW INGREDIENTS!! lol

/signed

This ^^^^

Please turbine whatever you do no more new ingredients.

Chaos000
10-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Why require the DDO store, they can just make everything BTA or unbound now

To answer the question: BTA items becoming unbound would unbalance the player economy... and the best motivator is something revenue generating without breaking the game. (main reason why I didn't suggest it to be incorporated to the existing crafting system, if it was free why would we pay?)

I know some players that leave over a game changing element that affect their character directly because of the time spent to optimize that ability along with gearing the character out to the tee. Having some way to redeem a now broken build by moving items to new or existing character may help to generate a returning player base.

I know back when permanent damage was ridiculous I bound a whole lot of items to a now useless character. An ability to reverse that would save a LOT of time trying to grind back the items on a different character.

dkyle
10-07-2011, 01:59 PM
The point was that if an item is BtC for a balancing reason, it could either be ineligible for BTA conversion or it would be BTA (BTC upon equip) similar to crafting unbound items.

Your OP said nothing about exempting any BtC items from BtA conversion. So what items would you want a conversion for? It's impossible to really discuss your proposition without establishing this. Stuff like the non-epic Red Fens set items I could see, since they're about the same power level as BtA chain rewards anyway. But I still don't want to see that as a store option.

And BtA on acquire + BtC on equip is a very minor limitation. I would consider making Raid loot that barely any better than making it flat out BtA.


Because TRing is in place it's not unheard of for a fighter to loot something they can't use right at this moment for the sake of using it in a future life. (I thought that was the whole point of 20 runs for loot lists?)

Not unheard of, but taking something for a future TR is much less compelling than taking something for your alt, that you could use right now. Most long-time players have some character that could make use any Raid loot they might pull, that's remotely desirable. And outside of completionist-bound characters (not common), most characters will stay within the same "genre" of character throughout their TRs, meaning loot useless now is likely to be useless in the future.


so... Store bought conversion. I for one am willing to pay.

I, for one, am not willing to pay for a game where a high degree of paying for power is allowed.

dynahawk
10-07-2011, 02:14 PM
This would be great if it was limited to, say 1 item every 3 - 6 months per account. I would use it and I don't believe it would be totally abusive. If they move their torc over, the other character couldn't get it back for months.

TempestAlphaOmega
10-07-2011, 02:17 PM
Actually, allowing BtC items to be transferred to another character would have a much bigger impact on gameplay than selling +3 tomes in the store. Right now, I give away most of my BtC raid loot just because that character can't use it. I'd be a lot less likely to give away a Torc when my Fighter pulls it if I knew I could give it to my new Sorc.

Reasonable people could disagree on whether that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it's certainly much more significant than selling +3 tomes.

Totally agree with the above statement.

Chaos000
10-07-2011, 02:17 PM
Your OP said nothing about exempting any BtC items from BtA conversion. So what items would you want a conversion for? It's impossible to really discuss your proposition without establishing this. Stuff like the non-epic Red Fens set items I could see, since they're about the same power level as BtA chain rewards anyway. But I still don't want to see that as a store option.

Yes I didn't address exempting any BtC items from BtA conversion in my original post. It would make sense that the Devs would make that determination. They would know the reason why some items are BtC and why some items that used to be BtC are now BtA.

My opinion: Any item that is not altered *crafted* in some form would remain BtC. (maybe a breakdown option? take an epic item, lose the ingredients that made it epic and be able to change it back to a raid item?) I would argue that previously attuned items could be available for conversion. Any item that was BtC and is now BtA?

As you pointed out most long-time players do have some character that can make use of any raid loot they might pull. How many times have you pulled something you wished you had gotten on another character?

Lots of long time players (myself included) would see this as a good thing. Some won't ever want to see it as an in-game and/or store option but then they might feel the same way for the respec that the lesser heart of wood allows us either.

Thrudh
10-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Because TRing is in place it's not unheard of for a fighter to loot something they can't use right at this moment for the sake of using it in a future life. (I thought that was the whole point of 20 runs for loot lists?)

That's still pretty rare... Very very very few people are going for completionist... Most people TRing are TRing into similar classes... My barbarian has TRed twice.. may TR once more... but I've still given away plenty of caster raid loot, because I have no intention of ever TRing him into a sorc or something.

Same with my wizard... He's only going to TR into caster types, so he gives away melee items.


I think 20 raid runs would be less annoying for someone if they had the option to pass something useful to a different character they had.

BtA for just items in the 20th list is an interesting idea. Gut reaction is no, but I could consider that one

AmatsukaIncarnate
10-07-2011, 02:27 PM
I can only imagine the loot drama threads this would create. While this wouldnt be so much of an issue for end reward lists it would certainly cause upsets with raid chest loot.

It would encourage people to loot everything to pass to their alts rather than put up for roll items that they can't use.

Agreed.
Want this torc? Sorry, I have 7 other toons who will need it eventually.

Okay so that's a slight exaggeration depending on the expense in the DDOStore; however I think it'd have to be EXPENSIVE to do for it to be balanced AND the BTC should be BTC on equip.

Musouka
10-07-2011, 02:29 PM
Not signed, except for Cannith crafting items.

Raid loot should be bind to character. It's no reasonable for me to be able to create a level 4 character today, have it level 20 by the end of the weekend, and then pass it a full set of BTA raid loot making it comparable to characters that have been running raids for months, or longer.

Making it possible to convert BTC loot into BTA loot will also prevent any sharing of loot. Why shouldn't I loot the madstone boots on my cleric, or the staff of the petitioner on my fighter? I might roll up a new character one day, and want to be able to pass these.

Raid loot sharing, and need before greed, is one of the aspects of DDO that sets it apart from other MMOs. Making it possible to turn all raid loot into BTA loot, even if just once, will completely destroy that.

^That

/not signed.

Also in response to Amatsuka, it may be expensive, but I can just hold onto in my bank until I earn enough favor TP to transfer it.

Chaos000
10-08-2011, 02:42 AM
Making it possible to convert BTC loot into BTA loot will also prevent any sharing of loot. Why shouldn't I loot the madstone boots on my cleric, or the staff of the petitioner on my fighter? I might roll up a new character one day, and want to be able to pass these.

I disagree with the attitude that certain classes shouldn't loot a particular item that happens to drop for them just because there's a presumed "greater need" by another class. Now if it was someone rolling for an item someone put up for roll that they intend to pass to a different character... that's another story.

Raid loot sharing will still occur irregardless of this feature being added to the DDO store.

If all raid loot can only be converted to BtA (bind to character on equip), and the cost was 1000 TP, the people using this feature heavily would be people that have played for years and they are likely to use it only on highly coveted low drop items. In fact. One could argue that if they did get the item to the character they needed it on (20th run on a different character or whatever), they would be far more likely to be in a position to pass the raid loot along if it drops for them again.

Astraghal
10-08-2011, 02:50 AM
These 'HEY THE MOST UNBELIEVABLE THING THAT WE THOUGHT WAS NEVER GOING TO BE IN THE DDO STORE IS THERE RIGHT NOW - GO LOOK! - HAHA TRICKED YOU!' threads dressed up as polls, petitions and rants are rather annoying.

PS - No I didn't really get tricked, but it's still corny, cheap and annoying. :p

blkcat1028
10-08-2011, 02:51 AM
I'd just be happy if the huge collectibles bag I bought from the store was BtA.

gloopygloop
10-08-2011, 07:53 AM
I disagree with the attitude that certain classes shouldn't loot a particular item that happens to drop for them just because there's a presumed "greater need" by another class. Now if it was someone rolling for an item someone put up for roll that they intend to pass to a different character... that's another story.

Just for clarity, I don't think that anyone in this thread is objecting to the idea that someone who would only get limited use out of an item would loot it instead of someone else who would potentially make better use of that item. The objection is that players who have absolutely no desire for that item on that character would no longer want to put items up for /roll because a BtA conversion option because they could potentially pass that item to another character that they already have or that they might potentially roll up in the future.

Chaos000
10-08-2011, 11:23 AM
The objection is that players who have absolutely no desire for that item on that character would no longer want to put items up for /roll because a BtA conversion option because they could potentially pass that item to another character that they already have or that they might potentially roll up in the future.

I apologize. My impression was that they would also object to players who have absolutely no desire for that item to leave it in the chest and/or loot it and vendor trash it.

I think the point I was trying to make is that if an item drops for a player, they should be entitled to do whatever they want with it without being vilified as being a horrible person so long as they are not deliberately doing so to grief other players.

The intention of BtA conversion is to allow for characters affected by mechanic changes in the game to be deleted without losing the items certain players have spent years acquiring. I have a 2nd Anniversary cake in the bank of one of my characters that I would love to delete, he's got the fom boots, a torc, titan gloves and a sword of shadows from way back when.

Zenthalas
10-08-2011, 11:32 AM
No bad idea. Work for the gear.

smatt
10-08-2011, 11:42 AM
No.....

Chaos000
10-09-2011, 10:23 AM
No bad idea. Work for the gear.

Seriously? would you TR if you didn't get to keep all the *stuff* you worked for?

My point is that work has already been done. Someone else is proposing that 20th item raid loot lists be BtA (BtC on equip so that if you get a bum list you could pass to a different character)

Less grind. More enjoyment from game.

Musouka
10-09-2011, 11:10 AM
Seriously? would you TR if you didn't get to keep all the *stuff* you worked for?

My point is that work has already been done. Someone else is proposing that 20th item raid loot lists be BtA (BtC on equip so that if you get a bum list you could pass to a different character)

Less grind. More enjoyment from game.


Here's something I would like to see at the turbine store taking a Bound to Character item and converting it to Bound to Account.


From what I get, your point is to be able to run a raid one time, grab something for an alt and transfer it over. I don't see the work already being done if you do that.

Astraghal
10-09-2011, 11:30 AM
This would completely destroy all raid loot sharing...

That's not a valid reason to support a game mechanic or not. Raid loot wasn't meant to be shared. If you're with friends and they don't need something so they pass it over to you then that's fine. But that's a bonus of having friends in the game, it should have nothing to do with the loot mechanics of pick up groups.

I've seen this type of misguided argument used a lot and it's completely invalid, in the same way that the idea that casters should be more powerful than melee in an MMO is a logical anomaly. Certain ideas might appeal to a small cross section of the community based on whatever particular author or fantasy genre they are currently reading, but saying no to something because you want more chances of making someone else's loot your loot doesn't cut it.

An increase in pug activity will lead to more opportunities to group with people who might be willing to pass on loot they don't require.

Chaos000
10-09-2011, 01:12 PM
From what I get, your point is to be able to run a raid one time, grab something for an alt and transfer it over. I don't see the work already being done if you do that.

How many times does a person get the raid loot that they want the first time they run a raid? For players that have been around for a while they have tons of raid loot already acquired sitting around gathering dust.

If you solo the demon queen for the challenge on your sorc and happen to get a torc that you are already wearing on your character I really don't have any qualms if there was an in-game ability to make that rare drop not be a source of annoyance at the game.

There's a cost involved. Turbine gets money, players doing the transfers are happy, less time spent grinding is the point.

Musouka
10-09-2011, 01:40 PM
How many times does a person get the raid loot that they want the first time they run a raid? For players that have been around for a while they have tons of raid loot already acquired sitting around gathering dust.

If you solo the demon queen for the challenge on your sorc and happen to get a torc that you are already wearing on your character I really don't have any qualms if there was an in-game ability to make that rare drop not be a source of annoyance at the game.

There's a cost involved. Turbine gets money, players doing the transfers are happy, less time spent grinding is the point.

You're not addressing the fact that some people DO get lucky and pull it on the first run. This would greatly affect those who manage to get it sooner than those who don't.

This leans very much toward 'pay to win'

herzkos
10-09-2011, 01:51 PM
I don't like the idea.
If necessary, turbine should re-evaluate which items are BTC and BTA but I don't think
they should ever come up with a mechanism to unbind even if it reverts to BTC on equip.
Mebbe it's just my p2p background and indoctrination that one does not "give" an
"artifact" (or other similarly powerful item) away to another character simply because they
are controlled by the same PC.

For the same reason, i'm not all that heavily into twinking characters but meh, that's my playstyle :)

Chaos000
10-09-2011, 07:32 PM
You're not addressing the fact that some people DO get lucky and pull it on the first run. This would greatly affect those who manage to get it sooner than those who don't.

This leans very much toward 'pay to win'

If the number of people that do get lucky and pull it on the first run outnumbers the unlucky people who have run it 20+ runs without pulling the item in question I can concede to your point.

If it's pay to grind less and enjoy the game more I'm all for it.

A buddy of mine who is an extremely casual player just bought a supreme +3 tome. He's been around since head start (always as p2p) and never ran a single raid, I don't begrudge him the joy of having decent stats despite him having a different playstyle then mine.

Musouka
10-09-2011, 07:39 PM
If the number of people that do get lucky and pull it on the first run outnumbers the unlucky people who have run it 20+ runs without pulling the item in question I can concede to your point.

If it's pay to grind less and enjoy the game more I'm all for it.

A buddy of mine who is an extremely casual player just bought a supreme +3 tome. He's been around since head start (always as p2p) and never ran a single raid, I don't begrudge him the joy of having decent stats despite him having a different playstyle then mine.

A +3 tome does very little to improve a character compared to a +2. It is a very bad analogy. A torc on the other hand does lend a lot more, so does madstone boots, ToD rings, Marilith Chain, Eardweller, also greensteel items/weapons, and etc.

Get on your level 20 farm the heck out of shroud, then make a tier 3 accessory to pass to your level 11? NO THANK YOU.

Vanquishedfo
10-09-2011, 07:47 PM
since items being BTC on pick up has always offended me I am very for something like this. When I think of toons I deleted that had extremely rare items bound to them that id of given anything to keep and actually woul take long breaks from subbing to the game over the frustration it caused. Yeah yes please.

gloopygloop
10-09-2011, 09:03 PM
since items being BTC on pick up has always offended me I am very for something like this. When I think of toons I deleted that had extremely rare items bound to them that id of given anything to keep and actually woul take long breaks from subbing to the game over the frustration it caused. Yeah yes please.

Have you ever /rolled on loot that someone else didn't want on the character that they brought into the raid?

Because that wouldn't end completely, but you'd pretty much just see people only putting trash up for roll. Just like epics. You don't see people putting decent Shards/Seals/Scrolls up for /roll very often. But you *do* often see people put Torcs, Madstone Boots, etc. up for /roll just because those players are on the "wrong" character. BtA conversion means there is no "wrong" character anymore.

Chaos000
10-10-2011, 06:17 PM
A +3 tome does very little to improve a character compared to a +2. It is a very bad analogy. A torc on the other hand does lend a lot more, so does madstone boots, ToD rings, Marilith Chain, Eardweller, also greensteel items/weapons, and etc.

Get on your level 20 farm the heck out of shroud, then make a tier 3 accessory to pass to your level 11? NO THANK YOU.

The example of a +3 tome being bought is an example of *pay to win.* Anyone that spends years casually pug raiding has a far more tougher time to get enough +3 tomes for every stat. Took me about a year and a half but I'm actually happy that my rl friend could feel that he can boost his gimpy toon so that he's not THAT far behind everyone else when he is leveling up.

Greensteel blanks are already unbound so are alchemical weapons. If that's a mistake then turbine should fix that asap.

Crafted items should remain bound. Sora Katra set, Greensteel, unraveling enchantments etc. You kind of knew what you were intending when you crafted it in the first place. An option to cleanse the crafted item to its base component for transfer would be nice tho'.

On a small scale: Red fens set completions, runes for dragontouched armor... raid trash items gathering dust.

BtA conversion priced at 1000 tp so an average VIP player takes about 2 months to transfer 1 item. Seriously how many items are they going to stockpile?

Besides it really depends on the player, I've got 8 madstone boots on my bard. why? nobody really needed them when it dropped out of a chest.