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Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 04:44 AM
Sword and Board Theory in PnP

S&B is designed as the standard style with overall well rounded stats. It deals 30% less damage than TWF in most instances and equal damage against bosses.

In addition, it also grants 25% more damage mitigation through higher AC.




The balance is as follows.
VS Trash, S&B hits on 11-20 rolls, for full damage. Full damage being comprised of about 40% strength, 30% enhancement, 15% elemental damage, and 15% weapon base.



The damage is: 10*1 = 10 hits per 20 attacks.
Players are also given the option of wielding 2 weapons at -2 to attack, -d4 to light weapon lower damage base, and at half strength value.


So the TWF is given 2 attacks that hit on 13-20.
Main hand hits for 93% of full damage.
Offhand hits for 73% of full damage.
The damage is: 8*0.93 + 8*0.73 = 13.28 hits per 20.

So TWF is supposed to do almost 40% more damage vs trash, but against bosses, the calculation is different. The baby red dragon has 5 more AC than the typical monster at the same level.

The damage comparison is now
S&B: hits on 16-20 at full damage = 5 hits per 20.
TWF: hits on 18-20 at 93% of full damage and 73% of full damage = 4.98 hits per 20.





And that would be the S&B theory based on PnP. S&B does 30% less vs trash and equal vs bosses. Fairly balanced.

So what happened outside of PnP to make S&B completely useless?

Watch what happens to the calculations when you throw in: Greater Heroism, Guild Ship buffs, Spectral Gloves.

S&B: hits on 6-20 at full damage = 15 hits per 20.
TWF: hits on 8-20 at 93% of full damage and 73% of full damage = 21.58 hits per 20.

So now TWF deals 40% more damage vs bosses and 50% more damage vs everything else.

What happens to the calculations when you throw in: Holy burst, Pure Good, Shocking Blow, Epic Bracers of the Claw, ect.

1d8+6 + 12 Str + 2d6 holy + 1d6 good + 1d6 lightning + 4 claws + 2d6 ravager +2 ship buffs +2 feats +2 enhancements = 53.5 dmg.
12/53.5 = 22% of total damage comes from strength

Suddenly damage bonuses account for 50% of the damage and strength only accounts for 22% of overall damage. When strength was 40% of your DPS, losing half of it on your offhand was a big deal. But losing 50% of 22% is negligible.




S&B: hits on 6-20 at full damage = 15 hits per 20.
TWF: hits on 8-20 at 95% (2 less avg damage on light weapon / 50 total damage) of full damage and 89% (100 - 0.5*22) of full damage = 23.92 hits per 20.
So now TWF deals 60% more damage vs bosses.

So there lies the first major problem. The penalties designed to balance the two combat styles were completely negated due to excessively powerful magic items.

Which is fine, because S&B still has that extra AC to fall back on. Except for the fact that the AC needed for elite LoB exceeds the reach of all but the very best S&B. And of course AC doesn't actually matter in epics.








=============================
So what, then, is the fix?
=============================

Should there even BE a fix? Lets assume so, and then what is our IDEAL situation?

Should S&B be restored to its former balance compared with TWF? I.E. dealing equal damage vs bosses?
NO. After all, we hate S&B.

So, it WOULD be desirable to place S&B somewhere between its current position and where TWF is.
60% damage discrepency vs bosses is excessive. To go from 30% vs PnP trash and 0% vs PnP bosses, to close to 70% vs DDO trash and 60% vs DDO bosses is really bad. TWF doing 60% more damage vs bosses is a very big deal.

So what would be the fix?

The solution would fall into 1 of 4 categories.
1) Fix within the bounds of PnP Eberron DnD and already exists as a DDO mechanic.
2) Fix outside the bounds of PnP but uses a current DDO mechanic.
3) Fix within PnP Eberron DnD but does not exist as a DDO mechanic.
4) Fix outside of PnP Eberron DnD and does not exist as a DDO mechanic.
These categories are also ranked in order of desirability. We WANT compliance with the DnD universe but also want to use existing mechanisms that have already been put into use and therefore are mostly bug free.


I've looked over dozens and dozens of potential fixes. The best one I can come up with is a category 2 fix.

Enhancement Fix: Category 2
Shield Combat Mastery I - Your skill with a shield allows you to make additional attacks that would normally be far too risky to take.
2 Action Point cost per rank: You gain 10% doublestrike per rank when you are using a shield.

The beauty of the fix is that it assumes that the Devs will bork everything in the future with ever more powerful bonuses and the enhancement line scales accordingly. Wanna add a vorpal and 500 damage to epics? No problem. It scales accordingly at all levels and possible future idiotic imbalances. No matter how the Devs try to screw the balance up, S&B will still be only 30% dps behind TWF.


Item Fix: Category 1
Add a bunch of new shields with very powerful bonuses.
This would constitute a category 1 fix, but would require an insane amount of balancing and fine tuning.

The production of a new line of shields, at various levels, that approximately contributed as much as green steel and alchemical does would technically fix the 60% dps imbalance. The main problem would be that it would require a rediculous amount of bonuses on a shield to add 60 dps at endgame. Such a shield would need to add... 40 strength. As you can clearly see, the solution needs to be more mainhand hitting and not more damage.

Feat Fix: Category 4
Tweaking the current Improved Shield Bash.
The feat currently adds 10% more dps vs trash and 0 dps vs DR. AND it is a category 4 fix.
=======================

The only reasonable fix is to add a 3 tiered enhancement that grants 10% doublestrike per rank for shield users.

Pro
It scales at all levels.
It scales for all future borkings. (I know you too well)
It closes the DPS vs boss difference by half.
Leaves plenty of extra room for additional tweaking in the future.
Nobody gets nerfed.

Con
Enhancements don't exist in PnP DnD.

Astraghal
10-07-2011, 06:00 AM
Give shields double the AC bonus if the character has the Shield Mastery and SD/DoS PrE's.

Solved.

R0cksteady
10-07-2011, 09:34 AM
Sword and Board is just fine now. Especially with the defender tank PrE.

I think right now, the only reason to roll a melee is for tanking or for flavor, since the devs decided that FvS and Sorcs should be the main DPS and Melee DPS should be vastly underpowered.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 10:07 AM
You are making a case for S&B tanking as opposed to S&B DPS. That would be a completely different thread.

As I am attempting to convey in this post, S&B used to be equal DPS to TWF back in PnP.

R0cksteady
10-07-2011, 10:11 AM
Yeah I see that, but this is far from PnP. AC doesn't work the way it did, and this is an MMO that until about a year ago had some balance in mind.

I think it works really well the way it is now. I guess we just want different things though so I should just put not signed and not make a case.

/not signed

Zachski
10-07-2011, 10:21 AM
I think the solution is even more simple.

Have shields spawn and be craftable with damage mods. In other words, treat them more like weapons rather than armor, which is how they're currently treated.

Made shield off-hand attacks inherent at a low chance with the feat increasing the chance, similar to that of TWF.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Indeed, more powerful shields was considered as a possibility. It is even a category 1 fix: it complies with both DDO and PnP style DnD. However, the damage mods needed to close the DPS difference would be approximately +40 exceptional strength added to shields. That would be unacceptable.


As for the offhand shield attacks, that is the current fix. However, there are no shields that break boss DR. So it is essentially 0 boss DPS.

Scraap
10-07-2011, 10:36 AM
Guaranteed offhand proc when using a tactics feat like sunder, stunning blow, ect for 2x the attempted applications per use? Closes the offhand strike gap a bit, but more by way of debilitation than outright assault.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 10:41 AM
Guaranteed offhand proc when using a tactics feat like sunder, stunning blow, ect for 2x the attempted applications per use? Closes the offhand strike gap a bit, but more by way of debilitation than outright assault.

That brings up the OTHER problem, which is that combat abilities favor TWF. Smite, Divine sacrifice works twice as well for TWF as opposed to S&B. You get 2 smites/divine sacrifices/whatever per use when using TWF.

And also, stunning blow does not work vs bosses.

Krago
10-07-2011, 10:44 AM
An increased chance for double strike with your main hand?
Incorporated by enhancements or addition to Shield Mastery feats.

Shield Mastery - +5% chance of Double Strike
Imrov Mastery - +5% chance for a total of +10% chance of Double Strike.

Allows 2 more hits per 20 closing the gap back to a more PnP range vs TWF.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 10:52 AM
An increased chance for double strike with your main hand?
Incorporated by enhancements or addition to Shield Mastery feats.

Shield Mastery - +5% chance of Double Strike
Imrov Mastery - +5% chance for a total of +10% chance of Double Strike.

Allows 2 more hits per 20 closing the gap back to a more PnP range vs TWF.

Having double strike is the only fix that makes any sense. Especially considering the very real possibility of future updates screwing everything up. The problem is that 10% double strike only grants 10% more dps to S&B. The TWF would still deal 50% more dps. The amount of double strike would need to be at least 30%, i.e. 10% per rank of the enhancement or feats.

Scraap
10-07-2011, 11:06 AM
That brings up the OTHER problem, which is that combat abilities favor TWF. Smite, Divine sacrifice works twice as well for TWF as opposed to S&B. You get 2 smites/divine sacrifices/whatever per use when using TWF.

And also, stunning blow does not work vs bosses.

Point on the stunning, and though I hadn't considered active abilities such as divine sacrifice, I would remind that twf caps at 1.8 for anyone not a ranger, so a guaranteed offhand that included smites as well would actually end up being a 20% amp to the application of those vs straight twf.

Zachski
10-07-2011, 11:30 AM
Indeed, more powerful shields was considered as a possibility. It is even a category 1 fix: it complies with both DDO and PnP style DnD. However, the damage mods needed to close the DPS difference would be approximately +40 exceptional strength added to shields. That would be unacceptable.


As for the offhand shield attacks, that is the current fix. However, there are no shields that break boss DR. So it is essentially 0 boss DPS.

I was thinking of them being different metals. And having things like Flaming Burst and such on them.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 12:07 PM
I was thinking of them being different metals. And having things like Flaming Burst and such on them.

Indeed, but how much elemental damage would be needed to balance out 9 extra hits per 20 rolls with an offhand alchemical khopesh?

Improved Shield Bash adds 20% proc, which is 3 hits per 20. (4 attacks with full damage on a 6-20 roll)(Assuming one shield hit is as strong as one alchemical khopesh hit. They are not equal in the slightest.)

So a metalline flametouched iron shield would need to have, 75 points [6*50/4 attacks] of elemental damage added to it.
It would need to be:

Flaming burst 1d6 + 1d10 on crit
Shocking burst 1d6 + 1d10 on crit
Icy Burst 1d6 +1d10 on crit
Acid Burst 1d6 +1d10 on crit
Sonic Burst 1d6 +1d10 on crit
Evil Burst 2d6 +3d6 on crit
Holy burst 2d6 + 3d6 on crit
Axiomatic Burst 2d6 +3d6 on crit
Anarchic Burst 2d6 +3d6 on crit
====================
Total 13d6 + critical hits for bonus 5d10 + 12d6
[13+78]/2 + 0.1[5+50+12+72]/2 = 52.45 average damage
Adding every possible burst damage to it would still not be enough. My calculations would suggest that 30% doublestrike is the only solution that comes close to acceptable.

Zachski
10-07-2011, 12:28 PM
Then here's another idea.

Characters all have a base 20% to hit with shield.

Improved Shield Bash increases that chance by 20% up to 40%

Stalwart Defender and Defender of Syberis increase the chance to 60%

This puts it 20% behind TWF when used on a SD or DoS.

Of course, if we want it to achieve equal chance on SD/DoS, we can just add a new feat: Greater Shield Bash (that increase the chance by another 20%)

But then we might be going a bit overboard.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Point on the stunning, and though I hadn't considered active abilities such as divine sacrifice, I would remind that twf caps at 1.8 for anyone not a ranger, so a guaranteed offhand that included smites as well would actually end up being a 20% amp to the application of those vs straight twf.

The bonuses to combat abilities you suggest would make for fairly good use in most play. However, they do not do sufficient good against a 200,000 hit point High-Fortification massive blanket immunity engine of destruction. Which is coincidentally when you actually need those advantages.

/sadface

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 12:44 PM
Then here's another idea.

Characters all have a base 20% to hit with shield.

Improved Shield Bash increases that chance by 20% up to 40%

Stalwart Defender and Defender of Syberis increase the chance to 60%

This puts it 20% behind TWF when used on a SD or DoS.

Of course, if we want it to achieve equal chance on SD/DoS, we can just add a new feat: Greater Shield Bash (that increase the chance by another 20%)

But then we might be going a bit overboard.

True. That suggestion would provide sufficient DPS increase. Many other people have made similar suggestions, so it seems rather popular.

However, I would categorize it in group 4: Outside of PnP and outside of DDO mechanics.
Improved Shield Bash is currently coded as part of the attack chain and not as an attack proc. It would need to be recoded entirely. It would be a coding nightmare, with many many bugs. Moreover, such a mechanism never existed in PnP because the old -2 hit and 50% strength damage was sufficient balance in PnP.

Its a good idea, but the execution of it would be a killer. (pun intended)

Luis_Velderve
10-07-2011, 01:05 PM
ideas:

I think that if you are using a shield then the shield should be part of your attack chain and not a "press shift" key to attack with it; one attack will make sense. If you got shield bash (who got it?) you should get another attack using a shield in your chain.

Attack with S&B < Attacks with twf always!

SM and ISM should give A LOT of damage reduction no matter if you are actively blocking or not.

AC should have some sense in the game because turtles live longer!

I only use shields with my healers XD

Angelus_dead
10-07-2011, 01:25 PM
S&B is designed as the standard style with overall well rounded stats.
No, in the D&D 3.5 design the standard style was THF.


And that would be the S&B theory based on PnP. S&B does 30% less vs trash and equal vs bosses. Fairly balanced.
That outcome would not be "fairly balanced". It wouldn't be remotely balanced, or acceptable in any way.

For S&B to have the same anti-boss DPS as TWF would be massively broken. If a character spent 7 stat, 3 feat, and 2x item slots on improved melee DPS, then he needs to obtain improved melee DPS against bosses.

By the way, the D&D 3.5 design for TWF was broken because it only worked on full attacks.


Should there even BE a fix? Lets assume so, and then what is our IDEAL situation?
The ideal fix for S&B starts like this:
Change AC so that gaining +10 AC means a substantial defensive increase for nearly every character (except Monks or those who already had a shield on).

The core problem with S&B in DDO is that the majority of player characters cannot benefit from shield AC: moving a level 20 charcter from 31 to 40 AC means that her chance of being hit is reduced from 95% to 95%.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 01:28 PM
ideas:

I think that if you are using a shield then the shield should be part of your attack chain and not a "press shift" key to attack with it; one attack will make sense. If you got shield bash (who got it?) you should get another attack using a shield in your chain.

Attack with S&B < Attacks with twf always!

SM and ISM should give A LOT of damage reduction no matter if you are actively blocking or not.

AC should have some sense in the game because turtles live longer!

I only use shields with my healers XD

I agree, S&B should be less DPS than TWF, but I am making the argument that it should be a 30% difference (after 30% double strike w/ shields) and not the current 60-70% difference in DPS.

As for damage mitigation, people are always discussing that. I am hoping that thread stays purely a DPS analysis/discussion. AC and Damage mitigation is a whole other timey-wimey wibble-wobbly ball of worms that will probably never get fixed.

Angelus_dead
10-07-2011, 01:41 PM
As for damage mitigation, people are always discussing that. I am hoping that thread stays purely a DPS analysis/discussion. AC and Damage mitigation is a whole other timey-wimey wibble-wobbly ball of worms that will probably never get fixed.
The advantage of using S&B over THF/TWF is supposed to be damage mitigation. It doesn't give enough mitigation, and that's the problem. Raising the DPS of S&B would mean not fixing the problem... and to raise the DPS without even taking the mitigation into account would be really indefensible.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 01:49 PM
No, in the D&D 3.5 design the standard style was THF.


That outcome would not be "fairly balanced". It wouldn't be remotely balanced, or acceptable in any way.

For S&B to have the same anti-boss DPS as TWF would be massively broken. If a character spent 7 stat, 3 feat, and 2x item slots on improved melee DPS, then he needs to obtain improved melee DPS against bosses.

By the way, the D&D 3.5 design for TWF was broken because it only worked on full attacks.


The ideal fix for S&B starts like this:
Change AC so that gaining +10 AC means a substantial defensive increase for nearly every character (except Monks or those who already had a shield on).

The core problem with S&B in DDO is that the majority of player characters cannot benefit from shield AC: moving a level 20 charcter from 31 to 40 AC means that her chance of being hit is reduced from 95% to 95%.

You make very good points, and SURPRISE! I agree with every single one of them.

Twf SHOULD do more DPS as opposed to S&B. However, 60-70% extra is every bit as unbalanced as doing equal damage. So I suggested adding 30% doublestrike, so that the TWF only does 30% more DPs.

The problem is that your suggestion, and others such as Sirgog's 3d20 attack roll suggestion, is primarily that it falls into group 4: fixes that do not exist in PnP rules nor exist as a current DDO mechanism. They all require massive overhauls to the classes AND items AND core DnD mechanics.

The worst part is that they are GOOD ideas. But not a fix that could be implemented before the DnD license expires in 2013 and certainly not a fix that could even be attempted without unleashing a mass of bugs that would make crystal cove look good.

Postumus
10-07-2011, 02:01 PM
I think the solution is even more simple.

Have shields spawn and be craftable with damage mods. In other words, treat them more like weapons rather than armor, which is how they're currently treated.

Made shield off-hand attacks inherent at a low chance with the feat increasing the chance, similar to that of TWF.

This.

Have a line of enhancements/class feats that treat shields smaller than tower shields as another off hand weapon giving a chance to for automatic offhand attacks with the shield - say up to 60%?


I also think shields should decrease damage from glancing blows starting at 25% for light, 50% for medium, and 75% for tower shields if they don't already.

Postumus
10-07-2011, 02:06 PM
The advantage of using S&B over THF/TWF is supposed to be damage mitigation. It doesn't give enough mitigation, and that's the problem. Raising the DPS of S&B would mean not fixing the problem... and to raise the DPS without even taking the mitigation into account would be really indefensible.

I agree. I think you need to raise both damage dealing capabilities and damage mitigation enough that the benefits for S&B make it a solid, viable, fun choice when compared to THF and TWF.

On a side note, what about having sword and shield set items? You need to equip both the sword and the shield to get the set item bonus like the belt/ring combos in Amrath.

Angelus_dead
10-07-2011, 02:10 PM
You make very good points, and SURPRISE! I agree with every single one of them.
You do not agree with all of my points.


However, 60-70% extra is every bit as unbalanced as doing equal damage.
That is untrue. 60-70% extra is appropriate for the cost.


So I suggested adding 30% doublestrike, so that the TWF only does 30% more DPs.
To raise S&B damage by 30% would create imbalances, especially regarding existing Defender specialties.


They all require massive overhauls to the classes AND items AND core DnD mechanics.
...
But not a fix that could be implemented before the DnD license expires in 2013 and certainly not a fix that could even be attempted without unleashing a mass of bugs that would make crystal cove look good.
Those two statements are also not nearly true. In particular, the final claim makes the presumption that the developers are completely incompetent at elementary computer programming.

voodoogroves
10-07-2011, 02:13 PM
I think somewhat that your premise is wrong; your 3.5 PNP experience clearly does not match mine.

I agree, some changes would be good - but not from the premise that TFW and S&B are anything close to similar in damage output from PNP - they aren't (except in cases like stacking natty attacks, where the other style points are irrelevant).

S&B should be a defensive style; I'd be ok with it being a tactical style as well.

kmau
10-07-2011, 02:15 PM
Fix Shield & Board style by replacing the horrible attack animation (Especially the 3rd and 4th attack). Thanks.

Ralmeth
10-07-2011, 02:31 PM
I like the idea of a shield enhancement line that adds doublestrike %, however this would have to be coupled with a reworking of AP costs for Paladin DoS builds as enhancements are already very tight...I might be able to free up only 2-4 points at the most.

I'm also for buffing the improved shield bash feat. I have this feat now and have been running with it since it was changed. At the moment I am on the cusp of whether I should keep it or not. Most importantly I keep it for thematic purposes as S&B combat is much cooler to watch when you're throwing in a shield bash every so often. This might be a complicated change, but what if after a shield bash which you are doing normally while fighting you are given a bonus to your DPS? I.e. after you smash your shield into your opponent, you have opened up a better attack on your next swing. One possibility would be to add doublestrike and another would be to improve your crit. Improving your crit would be especially interesting playstyle for a DoS Pally as you could then try to time a smite or divine sacrifice. That would be fun:)

Krago
10-07-2011, 02:33 PM
That is untrue. 60-70% extra is appropriate for the cost.


The cost is 1 more feat over S&B (possibly 2 if you count OSTWF of which few people take). Hardly appropriate for expending one more feat than an S&B.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 02:53 PM
You do not agree with all of my points.


That is untrue. 60-70% extra is appropriate for the cost.


To raise S&B damage by 30% would create imbalances, especially regarding existing Defender specialties.


Those two statements are also not nearly true. In particular, the final claim makes the presumption that the developers are completely incompetent at elementary computer programming.

3 feats add 60-70% DPS.
The average of that would be each feat giving 20% more DPS. (54 * 0.2 * 88 hits per minute / 60 seconds per minute = 15.84 DPS)
That is the equivalent of 1 Feat giving an extra 10.8 damage per hit.

For everyone else, Weapon Specialization looks awesome because it gives 2 damage.
That also implies that 7 AC is worth 32.4 damage per hit. (Heavy shield +5, because tower shields give DPS penalties)

1 Feat should contribute more to DPS than power attack + weapon specialization + greater weapon specialization put together?

So, is 7 AC worth 32.4 damage per hit? Put in a slightly different way, would you rather have 70 AC or 324 damage per hit?

The real question becomes, how much percentage DPS is one percentage of damage mitigation worth? And as a side-note, how much DPS or AC is one feat worth?

DPS works in all instances and helps everyone in the party by killing stuff faster - thus mitigating damage. Damage mitigation only works for the player who has it and even then, only when he has aggro.

However, to hold aggro, the player must either intimidate, which takes time and skill points and item slots thereby lowering DPS even more, or use hate amplification items, which uses up item slots and thereby lowering DPS even more.

In order for S&B defenses to matter, stat points, item slots, and even more DPS must be sacrificed.
When you take into account the 2 seconds it takes to shake your fist at a monster during the intimidate animation, your S&B just lost another 13% DPS.
And vs Bosses, S&B intim needs +15 intim item, Feat: Skill Focus Intimidate, 23 skill points put into Intimidate, Bullheaded, Fighter Past life +2 intimidate, Barbarian Past life +2 intimidate.

You end up using alot more feats just to get a boss to swing at you so your damage mitigation even starts to matter in the slightest.

At the end of the day, Ram's Might is an amazing spell that gives 3 damage. Shield is a terrible spell that only gives 4 AC. That should give a fairly good indication of whether 7 AC is worth 32 damage per hit.

Everyone keeps bringing up Defender PRE, because Hate amp is the greatest thing ever? Or is it the 3 extra damage? Or the 15% extra hit points?
Those are terrible!
60% DPS provides 38% damage mitigation because the monster DIES 38% faster.
Hate Amp provides 0 damage mitigation and 0 DPS.


Also, regarding BUGS. How many years did it take to fix repeater crossbows? It's one thing to conjecture about a hypothetical level of programming ability and another to provide abundant evidence to the contrary.

AtomicMew
10-07-2011, 02:53 PM
S&B does not do "60-70%" less damage than TWF. That is a complete exaggeration without any understanding of DDO game mechanics. There are a considerable amount of mitigating factors that pull S&B much closer. Off the top of my head:

*S&B bastard sword has THF procs.
*Off hands (for TWF) take 50% strength bonus for damage.
*Double strikes only apply to main hand. Fighter capstone and paladin zeal both boost THF/S&B more.
*S&B has a faster attack animation than TWF.
*Shield bash

The suggestion to give S&B 30% double strike bonus is ridiculously unbalanced, and I wouldn't be surprised if that would put S&B ahead of everything.

Postumus
10-07-2011, 02:53 PM
I like the idea of a shield enhancement line that adds doublestrike %, however this would have to be coupled with a reworking of AP costs for Paladin DoS builds as enhancements are already very tight...I might be able to free up only 2-4 points at the most.

I'm also for buffing the improved shield bash feat.

I like the doublestrike idea as well.

Adding a 'knockback' or 'shield stunning blow' combat feat/enhancement available for shield users might be another way to enhance this style of play.

Postumus
10-07-2011, 03:03 PM
I like a lot of what you had to say in your post.

I don't agree with this part though:


[1] 60% DPS provides 38% damage mitigation because the monster DIES 38% faster.
[2] Hate Amp provides 0 damage mitigation and 0 DPS.


1- assumes that the DPS build and the AC/Dam mitigation build are taking the same amount of damage per swing from an opponent which isn't the case.

2- Hate Amp can provide 100% damage mitigation for the other party members who aren't targeted by the critter.


But as I said, you posted some good points.

elraido
10-07-2011, 03:10 PM
Already make it to where if you have combat ex you get a +10 bonus when you use a shield!!!!!!

It then is basically the same as power attack with a two handed weapon.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 03:29 PM
S&B does not do "60-70%" less damage than TWF. That is a complete exaggeration without any understanding of DDO game mechanics. There are a considerable amount of mitigating factors that pull S&B much closer. Off the top of my head:

*S&B bastard sword has THF procs.
*Off hands (for TWF) take 50% strength bonus for damage.
*Double strikes only apply to main hand. Fighter capstone and paladin zeal both boost THF/S&B more.
*S&B has a faster attack animation than TWF.
*Shield bash

The suggestion to give S&B 30% double strike bonus is ridiculously unbalanced, and I wouldn't be surprised if that would put S&B ahead of everything.

Technically, the statement was that TWF does 60-70% more DPS than S&B.

Dwarven Axes also give THF procs. Provided you have the feats to spend on THF, Improved THF, and Greater THF.

Offhand 50% strength bonus was taken into account. And shown in the calculations.

Double strike also benefit Two Weapon Fighting and increases actual DPS by the same amount for both styles.
Formula is: (Mainhand damage) * (doublestrike) = damage bonus per swing.

Shield Bash does not break DR. And against bosses, that is when you actually NEED dps.

However, I did forget to account for differences in attack animations. According to Monkey Archer's Attack speed index, hasted S&B deals 108 attacks per minute as opposed to 106 for hasted TWF. Therefore, my 60% statement is off by 2%.

Glancing Blows also adds 50% of your base damage 75% of the time as bonus damage at -5 penalty as long as you are not fighting a moving target. The actual DPS increase would be closer to 15%. Or 0% if you are trying to grab aggro back from a squishy.

Using revisions based upon your suggestions, the actual difference would be 1.7/[1+0.02+0.15] = 1.453.
TWF ONLY does 45% more trash-dps and 37% more boss-dps when equal amounts of feats are spent.

7 AC is not worth 37%-45% dps, nor does it grant the 32% damage mitigation that comes from killing the monsters faster.

MadDruid
10-07-2011, 03:34 PM
Give those with shield an additioal DR bonus based on lvl, Heavy Shields +1 DR/2lvls, Tower Shields +1 DR/lvl.

The AC they give at epic may not be much use but +20 stacking DR at lvl 20 would make a difference.

Corwinsky
10-07-2011, 04:02 PM
It's not because some people got used to something (take it as granted) that it is not broken and shouldn't be fixed.
People were used as arcanes to just hold monsters in epic, DDO still fixed it and allowed them to instant kill mobs. (I remember when U9 was going to come out how all arcanes complained of the big "nerf" because the timers would be slightly increased)
That changed the DPS comparison with other classes (the THF and TWF who were king before).


As OP has signaled this game which was supposed to be based on PnP D&D rules and should not provide that much more DPS for TWF vs S&B.
That people that spent feats in TWF line don't like it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have such an advantage.

And this without having to take extra feats or APs.
Assumption of the OP is that if his fix is implemented then S&B and TWF will be balanced but that would still not be true because all classes that could choose to be S&B don't have the feats or APs to get this 30% extra proc bonus (just to put back the S&B DPS where it should have been in the 1st place).
Fighters would be fine, others not.

But not withstanding that to answer whether it's acceptable or not you just have to consider how many people (if it was free) would swap out their TWF feats if that S&B change was implemented... I would argue very few (I have 1 TWF rogue and wouldn't change his 3 feats for something else) and so people that are against it just because it lower the TWF "value" are just selfish.

A good comparison is the THF feats; they actually add nothing to the DPS against a boss. Only against group of trashs (all the bonuses are on glancing blows) to make your kill count look good.
With the proposed changed from the OP same would be for TWF, still a big advantage against trash but far more limited against bosses.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 04:04 PM
S&B does not do "60-70%" less damage than TWF. That is a complete exaggeration without any understanding of DDO game mechanics. There are a considerable amount of mitigating factors that pull S&B much closer. Off the top of my head:

*S&B bastard sword has THF procs.
*Off hands (for TWF) take 50% strength bonus for damage.
*Double strikes only apply to main hand. Fighter capstone and paladin zeal both boost THF/S&B more.
*S&B has a faster attack animation than TWF.
*Shield bash

The suggestion to give S&B 30% double strike bonus is ridiculously unbalanced, and I wouldn't be surprised if that would put S&B ahead of everything.

Ignore my last reply.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Shield Mastery (Prerequisite for Defender I)
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
Toughness (Prerequisite for Defender II PRE)

That's 8 feats. You trolled me good. Ignore the 45% dps calculations. We're back to 60%.

Angelus_dead
10-07-2011, 04:24 PM
A good comparison is the THF feats; they actually add nothing to the DPS against a boss. Only against group of trashs (all the bonuses are on glancing blows) to make your kill count look good.
That is specifically untrue.

Infiltraitor
10-07-2011, 05:05 PM
That is specifically untrue.

I think he might be talking about the -5 hit penalty on glancing blows.
Or he might have just forgotten to bring a harry beater. Probably the former rather than the latter.

AtomicMew
10-08-2011, 04:21 AM
Double strike also benefit Two Weapon Fighting and increases actual DPS by the same amount for both styles.
Formula is: (Mainhand damage) * (doublestrike) = damage bonus per swing.
This is factually incorrect. The fighter capstone, for example, benefits THF and S&B by 10%, while TWF somewhere only between 5.5% to 7.5% (depending on gear and strength).

Talking strictly about DPS, S&B also has an extra 6% doublestrike due to the cove shield. Although this is still pretty irrelevant to the points being made, which you are ignoring. See below.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Shield Mastery (Prerequisite for Defender I)
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash
Toughness (Prerequisite for Defender II PRE)


That's 8 feats. You trolled me good. Ignore the 45% dps calculations. We're back to 60%.
That list is incredibly dishonest and can be pared down to 4 feats that are actually relevant.

Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Shield Mastery

Dwarven axe proficiency is free, and none of the other feats are DPS-additive (shield bash doesn't factor into your DPS calc, so why take it?). Improved Shield mastery also has nothing to do with DPS. Toughness is also taken by every class.

This is all pretty irrelevant, because S&B isn't meant to be good DPS, it's meant for tanking. With GTHF you have respectable two-handed DPS when you need it. As things currently stand, S&B specced toons are very respectable and balanced. If you want to do DPS, switch out to your greataxe. If you want to tank, use S&B. But realize that DPS is actually the least important function of a tank.

PS: calling someone who disagrees with you a troll is a sure-fire way to kill any possibility of a real discussion.

Zachski
10-08-2011, 06:36 AM
But realize that DPS is actually the least important function of a tank.

This is factually incorrect.

If your tank can't do DPS, then they can't tank, period. DPS is what leads to the enemy getting angry with you, and intimidate helps but isn't any sort of solution.

R0cksteady
10-08-2011, 11:33 AM
This is factually incorrect.

If your tank can't do DPS, then they can't tank, period. DPS is what leads to the enemy getting angry with you, and intimidate helps but isn't any sort of solution.

With the insane amount of functional threat generation the defender PrEs get, DPS really isn't very important.

Infiltraitor
10-08-2011, 10:32 PM
PS: calling someone who disagrees with you a troll is a sure-fire way to kill any possibility of a real discussion.

I didn't call anyone a troll. I said I was trolled.
More importantly, I can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Maxed THWF
50% base damage 3/4 of the time at -5 BAB
Translation: 0.5 * (Weapon damage without any elemental bonuses) * 0.75 at -5 BAB
Weapon Effects such as 20d6 on vorpal, or holy burst 2d6 + 3d6 on criticals, accounts for 50% of damage.

Actual damage = 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.75 at -5 BAB, right?
Nope. Glancing blows don't crit, which can account for up to 10% extra dps on a khopesh you aren't getting.
0.5*0.5*0.75*0.9 at -5 BAB.
16.875% extra DPS at -5 BAB.

4 Feats gets you 16.875% extra DPS? That's 4.22% DPS per feat.
That's awesome!

Lets compare that to any other feat.
Improved Crit gives 10% extra DPS on a khopesh.
Weapon specialization gives 4.4% extra DPS.
Weapon focus gives anywhere between 5-10% dps.

Pretty much any other feat gives considerably more DPS than the two handed weapon fighting line. And I haven't even factored the -5 BAB for glancing blows. Any other feat is better than the THWF feats.

Then there's the shield bash, which no shield in game can even touch the chicken DR.
Then there's double strike, which occurs on off-hand alchemical weapons.
The offhand weapon penalty to strength was taken into account in the original calculations.

Heck, the only part of that post that even mattered was the attack animation difference, which was, according to monkey_archer's attack speed index: 108 vs 106. It was a 1.9 % increase in dps for S&B, and a 2% increase in S&B dps from double strike as opposed to an off-hand double striking alchemical weapon.

3.9% amounts to "without any understanding of DDO game mechanics". That's a troll.

Yokido
10-09-2011, 12:51 AM
20% damage mitigation on a tower shield user,
but most S&B end up using a large shield since
it has less penalties and there are a better variety
of large shields vs tower shields.. So we'll say 15%.

You get a 20% chance of a shield bash, which (as mentioned
by the OP) isn't as helpful as an addition to damage itself against
bosses. Shield's give a base for you to balance yourself and keep
your feet firm, since you have a stronger foothold you have
more strength to direct with your attacks.

Cat-4
In other-words, we add an enhancement line
that is opened up by the current shield bash mastery,
allowing a higher strength modifier to your swings per tier
when wielding a weapon with a shield.
20%-2
40%-3
60%-4

Cat-3
We could also create an enhancement line that allows you an
additional hit chance on your main-hand weapon
whenever you connect a shield-bash.
20%-2
40%-3
60%-4

Allowing a 60% increase to STR modifier while using a shield,
Also allowing a 12% increase in weapon alacrity.
Further increasing the gap of to-hit between S&B vs
TWF, whilst decreasing the gap of damage.

Infiltraitor
10-09-2011, 01:02 AM
20% damage mitigation on a tower shield user,
but most S&B end up using a large shield since
it has less penalties and there are a better variety
of large shields vs tower shields.. So we'll say 15%.

You get a 20% chance of a shield bash, which (as mentioned
by the OP) isn't as helpful as an addition to damage itself against
bosses. Shield's give a base for you to balance yourself and keep
your feet firm, since you have a stronger foothold you have
more strength to direct with your attacks.

Cat-4
In other-words, we add an enhancement line
that is opened up by the current shield bash mastery,
allowing a higher strength modifier to your swings per tier
when wielding a weapon with a shield.
20%-2
40%-3
60%-4

Cat-3
We could also create an enhancement line that allows you an
additional hit chance on your main-hand weapon
whenever you connect a shield-bash.
20%-2
40%-3
60%-4

Allowing a 60% increase to STR modifier while using a shield,
Also allowing a 12% increase in weapon alacrity.
Further increasing the gap of to-hit between S&B vs
TWF, whilst decreasing the gap of damage.

For the record, a X% increase in overall attack speed animations would constitute: Outside of PnP but within the current DDO mechanics. Category 2.

If coded as a permanent exceptional bonus to attack speed when using a shield would actually be better than my suggestions of a double strike enhancement due to it
1) affecting all shield users
2) not screwing the feat-starved Paladins
3) not screwing up any of the current Action Point starved builds.
4) scale at all levels

Indoran
10-09-2011, 01:05 AM
S&B and TWF in PnP were not optimal at all...

Also your numbers are quite ad hoc, actually the dps is not lineal and varies wildly according to scores and equipment. I think your argumentation is a weak one, because of the premises.

Also PnP 3.5 was not very well balanced...

I would say they are doing a better job in DDo at fixing fighting styles than they Wizards of the Coast ever did...

/not signed

Astraghal
10-09-2011, 11:58 AM
S&B are meant to tank through threat not DPS. There have been tweaks and fixes to this and I think even with the stance bugged, you will still get enough threat from PrE's and gear to be on top of the threat list. If not then fixing the stance should easily do it, the only thing I'd be concerned about is controlling aggro through DoT's and resets.

Yokido
10-09-2011, 03:53 PM
For the record, a X% increase in overall attack speed animations would constitute: Outside of PnP but within the current DDO mechanics. Category 2.

If coded as a permanent exceptional bonus to attack speed when using a shield would actually be better than my suggestions of a double strike enhancement due to it
1) affecting all shield users
2) not screwing the feat-starved Paladins
3) not screwing up any of the current Action Point starved builds.
4) scale at all levels

I mentioned a double-hit bonus with a shield bash connect because -actual-
melee alacrity actually screws around with the feat's effectiveness.