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View Full Version : Devs: Can we talk about removing Dungeon Alert



GentlemanAndAScholar
10-04-2011, 12:54 PM
This has a been a pain point since it was first announced and tested for Mod9. While I understand the motivation of not wanting players to zerg through a dungeon without killing stuff on the way, there are quests that DA just doesn't make any sense because these quests have mechanics that cannot be avoided. Coalescence Chamber being the number one in the list, IMO. It's already an aggravating quest with all the Mario-jumpy required, add DA that goes from nothing to red several times in the quest with no player interaction, like waves of bats, the ambush, etc. You can literally kill every single mob as you go along and then out of nowhere: Red skull, Harried, enemies buffed, etc. I've seen it happening on "kill x number of such" type of quests. Supposedly was an anti-zerg measure, but when the system fails when there's literally no zerging involved but by the quest mechanics/design, I think it's time to take another look at the system. Yes I'm sure "we're all uber and we running on red skulls is the only way to roll", but that doesn't justify, IMO, the fact that we need to put up with a flawed anti-zerg system that actually penalizes the players for doing what they're supposed to (killing mobs as they go, etc.).

Tunst
10-04-2011, 12:56 PM
needless to say..

bats cant talk.

Lagin
10-04-2011, 01:02 PM
/signed

Keeping scaling I can see, but the DA thing could go bye-bye asap.

bruha118
10-04-2011, 01:07 PM
/signed

Down with DA!!

Qzipoun
10-04-2011, 01:08 PM
Remove grazing hits too while you're at it. Both abominations were added together...

SupTyr
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
imo the da system should take the cr of the mobs into account. so a swarm of bats which have a lower cr doesn't raise the da to red suddenly.

dkyle
10-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Eh... outside of the places where it's blatantly broken (Bastion, Coal Chamber), it's just one more challenge to overcome that makes the game more interesting. I wouldn't say it's ideal as it is, but I think it's better than not having it. Ideal would be better AI and hit detection on moving targets, but that's a tall order to fill.

Xionanx
10-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Considering the level of outcry that occurred when it was added and the distinct LACK of a dev response to it then, I rate the likelyhood of DA being removed slim to none.

You will be hard pressed to find anyone who plays the game at the "vet" level who thinks it was a good addition or added anything worthwhile to the experience. I would love to see it removed, just not gonna hold my breathe for it.

Ugumagre
10-04-2011, 01:16 PM
I will wait until Memnir or Mr. Cow say something to agree with them :D

I just have no idea if DA is good or bad. Really, no joking.

Cyr
10-04-2011, 01:17 PM
In case anyone here has forgotten my many rants about DA...

/signed

Hellllboy
10-04-2011, 01:23 PM
DA is bad-and appears to be getting worse. Some quests are completely unplayable as a result of the solution they put in place to make our game more "playable"...so fix it some other way. :)

/signed

Cetus
10-04-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't like being told how to run my quests. Versatilite and aggressive playstyles are fun for me, DA was always an enormous nuisance- nowhere near challenging.

According to the devs, they confirmed that DA reduced lag (If my memory serves right), but having a hundred scorps and bats each contribute as much to alert as if they were 100 devils is plainly a broken mechanic.

anyway, as if this will mean anything,

/signed

AmatsukaIncarnate
10-04-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't like DA in situations like that where its unavoidable.

I get that Turbine doesn't want people simply just running through a quest (which I still think should NOT be allowed...) but when DA is unavoidable for no good reason, it is very annoying...

Qzipoun
10-04-2011, 01:35 PM
imo the da system should take the cr of the mobs into account. so a swarm of bats which have a lower cr doesn't raise the da to red suddenly.

CR isn't the issue. Dungeon Alert is a 'blanket system' applied to all quests equally. Quests are individually 'hand-designed'... why should a game-wide system be implemented over them I have no idea :/

(And that's without discussing the actual issues with the system itself...)

gloopygloop
10-04-2011, 01:38 PM
If Dungeon Alert actually did reduce lag in any meaningful way, then I'd have a lot less problem with it.

Since it doesn't reduce lag in any meaningful way, then I'll have to just stick to my opinion that it is a needless annoyance that only exists to aggrivate players who have melee characters.

Xenostrata
10-04-2011, 01:40 PM
DA was implemented to reduce the number of active AIs in an instance, thereby reducing the amount of lag that they caused. I wasn't here to notice the difference, but have heard that it made some amount of change to overall laginess.

However, lag in areas where having impeded movement will NOT reduce the number of active AIs (Schemes of the Enemy end fight, Devil Assault, and other one-room battles) SHOULD have DA removed since it is doing nothing there to reduce lag, just annoy players.

Gorbadoc
10-04-2011, 01:56 PM
DA was implemented to reduce the number of active AIs in an instance, thereby reducing the amount of lag that they caused. I wasn't here to notice the difference, but have heard that it made some amount of change to overall laginess.

If memory serves, it wasn't just a problem of AIs in an instance; it was AIs on a server. I could rush past monster after monster in Splinterskull Fortress without any noticeable change in game lag. Yet, when DA was implemented, server-wide lag seemed to decrease during peak hours.

My suspicion is that, when *I* rushed past monsters, I was using above-average server resources, but this was still just a few drops in the bucket. When *everyone* rushed past monsters, those drops added up, and the servers had trouble handling so many AIs per player.


For what it's worth, I kind of like how the devs tried to take advantage of DA in the end fight of Schemes of the Enemy. The dogs are pretty obviously meant to jack up DA; they're so easy to avoid, your only incentive to fight them is to keep DA down so you can hurt the cannon faster.

~econner1
10-04-2011, 01:57 PM
/signed

I hate the DA. If I have 1000 monsters chasing me, I will be running faster, not slower.

Cetus
10-04-2011, 01:58 PM
/signed

I hate the DA. If I have 1000 monsters chasing me, I will be running faster, not slower.

haha thats great!

+1 to you sir

Chai
10-04-2011, 02:00 PM
Arbitrary game mechanic is arbitrary, and not in the spirit of D&D. Remove it please.

psteen1
10-04-2011, 02:01 PM
I would just be happy if the developers gave themselves the ability to turn off DA for the quests in which it is broken. Keep it in most, turn it off in bastion and coal chamber.

Xenostrata
10-04-2011, 02:03 PM
If memory serves, it wasn't just a problem of AIs in an instance; it was AIs on a server. I could rush past monster after monster in Splinterskull Fortress without any noticeable change in game lag. Yet, when DA was implemented, server-wide lag seemed to decrease during peak hours.

My suspicion is that, when *I* rushed past monsters, I was using above-average server resources, but this was still just a few drops in the bucket. When *everyone* rushed past monsters, those drops added up, and the servers had trouble handling so many AIs per player.


For what it's worth, I kind of like how the devs tried to take advantage of DA in the end fight of Schemes of the Enemy. The dogs are pretty obviously meant to jack up DA; they're so easy to avoid, your only incentive to fight them is to keep DA down so you can hurt the cannon faster.

Mechanics like DA aren't challenging in a "fun" way, they are challenging in a "****** stop getting in my way let me jump over arrrRRRGGGGGGG!" way, and so should never be used a balancing mechanic in a quest. If it reduces lag, then fine, but implementing it in order to create challenge is not going to be good in the long run.

(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

Kovalas
10-04-2011, 02:06 PM
/signed

remove this anti fun from the 'game'

Kov

Sirea
10-04-2011, 02:07 PM
Considering the level of outcry that occurred when it was added and the distinct LACK of a dev response to it then, I rate the likelyhood of DA being removed slim to none.

You will be hard pressed to find anyone who plays the game at the "vet" level who thinks it was a good addition or added anything worthwhile to the experience. I would love to see it removed, just not gonna hold my breathe for it.

^this

They didn't listen then, they probably won't listen now. They think DA fixed the servers, so we're stuck with it.

GentlemanAndAScholar
10-04-2011, 02:08 PM
(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

I think this boils down the subject very well. Moving/jumping/killing = fun. Stunned, Crippled, hamstring, harried half-way helpless = not fun. No to say that those aren't good, but given that most of the monster AI is to mindlessly spam whatever they got its outright frustrating.

Sothary
10-04-2011, 02:09 PM
I would just be happy if the developers gave themselves the ability to turn off DA for the quests in which it is broken. Keep it in most, turn it off in bastion and coal chamber.

And the WF Titan pre-raid... maze area purple side, what a pain in the ****ing ass!

umeannothing
10-04-2011, 02:13 PM
For the most part, DA should be given a very long and close look for what it does do, what it is meant to do, and what it actually does.

I agree being stunned from DA, for pulling a pack of mobs, then being spammed with hold/dance/whatever they got is nothing but frustrating at best.

gloopygloop
10-04-2011, 02:14 PM
DA was implemented to reduce the number of active AIs in an instance, thereby reducing the amount of lag that they caused. I wasn't here to notice the difference, but have heard that it made some amount of change to overall laginess.

One other way that they could have reduced that lag would be to reduce the nuber of active AIs in an instance by simply deactivating AIs that the party had successfully moved past (at least once they got a certain distance away).

Dungeon Alert is no more effective at reducing lag than rubberbanding is while being a thousand times more annoying.

rest
10-04-2011, 02:17 PM
Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.


DA is sucky and a bad mechanic. I would love to see it taken out. I won't hold my breath for it, but I'd love to see it.

redspecter23
10-04-2011, 02:18 PM
Here's the issue I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. DA was added to reduce lag. Fair enough point. But if that is the case then the insane number of mobs in Coal Chamber and potential red alerts should still be contributing to that lag, no? If it is still contributing, then shouldn't it be a priority to reduce the large respawning of mobs in quests like this? You could potentially grief the whole server if you got enough people to zerg through coal chamber simultaneously. If I remember correctly, the issue was with multiple mobs and movement involving all the others in the area. This caused exponential calculations in order to path them properly. Couldn't this issue be solved, at least in some situations, by having mobs like vermin ignore other creatures for purposes of pathing? Just brainstorming on that one.

The second point. The quite probable primary reason for adding dungeon alert is to enforce a certain style of gameplay that makes you stop and kill mobs at certain points that you wouldn't normally have to. Any point in a quest that has a drop down or a ladder is a "reset" point if you don't have dungeon alert. Get to that point and all aggro on you is moot. It can't follow you. I understand that the devs don't want us simply running through the quest killing nothing. It does slow you down and really only contributes a small amount to your total xp in the end. Newsflash, we can do this with 95% effectiveness anyway with invisibility. So DA really doesn't force us to kill mobs in this situation, barring antimagic, dispel or hold monster, etc. This ends up being more of an argument to nerf invisibility instead of removing DA unfortunately.

I have no doubt that DA is reducing lag somewhat, but I also believe there could have been more player friendly alternatives that could have done just as much to reduce lag while enforcing a playstyle that would make us want to kill more mobs instead of a playstyle that forces us to kill more mobs. Any time you can accomplish your development goals without nerfs or annoyance to your playerbase, that should always be the preferable option.

dkyle
10-04-2011, 02:20 PM
I think this boils down the subject very well. Moving/jumping/killing = fun. Stunned, Crippled, hamstring, harried half-way helpless = not fun. No to say that those aren't good, but given that most of the monster AI is to mindlessly spam whatever they got its outright frustrating.

Yeah, I think that's primarily what bothers me about the current implementation (aside from the few places where it's triggered too easily). Getting harried sucks, and isn't fun. But it's still a reasonable challenge to try to zerg through, and avoid getting in trouble by being harried. Means learning when to fight, and when to run, instead of just run, run, run.

I think maybe a better thing, that would be relatively easy, would be to give monsters a speed boost, and a reach boost, when DA goes up, so that running away doesn't prevent being attacked. This would be a sort of workaround for the lousy AI that has trouble hitting targets that are running away.

But I think the principle of "too much zerging -> something happens to reign you in" is sound. Slowing movement rate just isn't fun. On the other hand, the boss buffs are reasonable.

Baahb3
10-04-2011, 02:28 PM
Considering the level of outcry that occurred when it was added and the distinct LACK of a dev response to it then, I rate the likelyhood of DA being removed as zero in never.



Let me change that for ya.

They have mentioned this before, according to their perf counters, performance has been better since its inception. Because of this it will never get removed.

While I dislike it in quests the biggest pain to me is in wilderness zones when you are just trying to run to a quest like Chains of Flame or Inferno.

Gorbadoc
10-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Mechanics like DA aren't challenging in a "fun" way, they are challenging in a "****** stop getting in my way let me jump over arrrRRRGGGGGGG!" way, and so should never be used a balancing mechanic in a quest. If it reduces lag, then fine, but implementing it in order to create challenge is not going to be good in the long run.

(I feel the same about epic archers getting Crippling, by the way. If they wanted to make epic Archer's challenging, they should have considered giving them, I dunno, damage, instead of yet another way to slow us down. Motion=fun, so mechanics that reduce mobility for long periods of time=not fun.)

Being dead also isn't fun, yet that's presumably the point of adding damage to archers. After all, damage is meaningful only if it kills or at least threatens to kill you.

This isn't to say Dungeon Alert is fun (it's not); I just think its un-fun nature has something more to it.

There are two problems. First, DA is inevitable in some places-- and it's these quests that people are complaining most about. Being dead isn't fun, and being harried isn't fun; trying to avoid being dead or harried is potentially fun, but only if you have a chance of succeeding.

Second, DA hurts the fun of the fantasy. So we're adventurers-- fighting to avoid death makes sense. It's immersive and exciting. Fighting to avoid Dungeon Alert isn't immersive, because Dungeon Alert doesn't make any sense.

This second complaint is related to my big gripe with the jailbreak part of Waterworks. For a proper cinematic jailbreak, we should be all rushing out the front gates, guards screaming, alarms blaring, and with maybe a couple explosions for good measure. Thanks to Arlos's questionable AI, though, we have to kill every single kobold within sight of our path. That's not cool!

Xionanx
10-04-2011, 04:07 PM
Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless melee clickfest.:rolleyes:

Granted its still fun, but it could use some improvements, too bad the lead developers are insane or are following some ridiculous plan.

Missing_Minds
10-04-2011, 04:11 PM
Eh... outside of the places where it's blatantly broken (Bastion, Coal Chamber), it's just one more challenge to overcome that makes the game more interesting. I wouldn't say it's ideal as it is, but I think it's better than not having it. Ideal would be better AI and hit detection on moving targets, but that's a tall order to fill.

Add in Reaver raid to that list. One large room. sure, lets have DA there. Right.

adam1oftheround
10-04-2011, 04:13 PM
remove dungeon alert please

/signed

adam1oftheround
10-04-2011, 04:18 PM
Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.


DA is sucky and a bad mechanic. I would love to see it taken out. I won't hold my breath for it, but I'd love to see it.

Of course the Server Load decreased, people decided the game was no fun and quit logging on. So Dungeon Alert decreased server load effectively.

Thrudh
10-04-2011, 04:18 PM
Coal Chamber: You can literally kill every single mob as you go along and then out of nowhere: Red skull, Harried, enemies buffed, etc.

This is not true. If you kill every single mob in Coal Chamber you will not have any problems with DA.

I do agree that bats should be taken off the list, and should not contribute to DA. I agree that DA in Coal Chamber could be better. However, as a work-around... if bats spawn, and it jumps you up a couple alert notches, turn around, take 5 seconds, and kill them... DA can be annoying in Coal Chamber, but it's fairly trivial to work around it.



when the system fails when there's literally no zerging involved but by the quest mechanics/design, I think it's time to take another look at the system.

I think it's time to look at those quests... There's about 4-5 quests where DA is semi-broken. Bastion and New Invasion especially should be looked at.


Yes I'm sure "we're all uber and we running on red skulls is the only way to roll", but that doesn't justify, IMO, the fact that we need to put up with a flawed anti-zerg system that actually penalizes the players for doing what they're supposed to (killing mobs as they go, etc.).

What? How does DA penalize players for killing mobs as they go... The system works exactly as designed... People who used to run past everything and kill nothing now run past everything, but drop a firewall or a blade barrier now and then to kill mobs.

Net result... more mobs are killed.

The devs don't care if you zerg... They care if you don't kill while zerging. DA motivates people to kill while zerging and it works very well.

Memnir
10-04-2011, 04:20 PM
I dislike DA for a host of reasons, and I think the game was a lot more fun before it was inflicted upon the players. That being said, I don't think it's going away anytime soon. As in ever.


I do think DA could use a few refinements that would make it a lot less odious, though. The big question is if the Devs can either find the time or see the reasons behind such refinements. Personally, I think they see the system fine as-is, and turn a deaf ear to our complaints about it. Now, if the Devs were to put up a discussion thread about DA - ala the new UI panel, I'd love to outline a few key ways I'd like to see DA tweaked and made better so that players would be happier with it.


Final thought on DA:
A few times in my pen and paper D&D career, I've played with DMs who got mad when we the players did things that they did not see coming. A good DM can roll with that. A bad DM, and I've played with a few who've done this, will use punitive measures or wrist-slaps to keep the players in line. All this does is make the players resent the DM, and make the table less enjoyable an experience for all. DA is like that. It's not fun, and it feels like the DM is just being a jerk to get the players to stop messing up the campaign by being players.

Thrudh
10-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Some quests are completely unplayable

Name them.

Thrudh
10-04-2011, 04:26 PM
Arbitrary game mechanic is arbitrary, and not in the spirit of D&D.

I'd like to point out that I agree with this. Even though I come across as defending DA, I don't really like it.


Remove it please

And replace it with what? Give us a better mechanic that will force people to kill monsters... You want every quest refitted with doors or force barriers that won't open until a certain number of bad guys are killed? I suppose that's a possible (but ugly solution).

DA is just another part of the game at this point. If you kill everything, in 98% of the quests you'll never even see it. If you kill most things, you can still run by the more annoying encounters and not have any issues with DA (maybe a short green alert).

DA is an ugly arbitrary mechanic... I agree..

It's also trivially easy to work around.

Thrudh
10-04-2011, 04:27 PM
And the WF Titan pre-raid... maze area purple side, what a pain in the ****ing ass!

Yes, that and Bastion and New Invasion really need to be looked at.

Thrudh
10-04-2011, 04:29 PM
I think maybe a better thing, that would be relatively easy, would be to give monsters a speed boost, and a reach boost, when DA goes up, so that running away doesn't prevent being attacked. This would be a sort of workaround for the lousy AI that has trouble hitting targets that are running away.

That's not a bad idea...

PumpkinSpiced
10-04-2011, 04:30 PM
I am getting harried just thinking about DA. Hate it........hate it...........hate it.

I've been playing since 2006 and have seen many changes throughout this game, and I think dungeon alert was one of the more unnecessary changes that were made. Supposed to reduce lag? Hah. Lag might be worse now than it ever was, what next, 7 people raids because 12 causes too much lag? Hehe. I know we'll never see a retro-DDO, but it would be nice.

Devonian
10-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Arbitrary game mechanic is arbitrary, and not in the spirit of D&D. Remove it please.

Speaking as a D&D DM who has unwisely allowed a few huge sprawling combats with dozens of critters to track. Its wholly in keeping with the spirit of D&D

protokon
10-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Speaking as a D&D DM who has unwisely allowed a few huge sprawling combats with dozens of critters to track. Its wholly in keeping with the spirit of D&D

That's beside the point. let's look at two primary type of players into a dungeon and see how it affects each of them:

Last night I ran fleshmaker's laboratory with my caster. I ran past everything and anything, pulling levers before I could get interrupted and going straight through the quest. very shortly I see the little icon pop up near my buffs, changing colors fast - soon it becomes red, and instead of getting annoying I just grin. I turn around, see all the clumsy golems in one little group, turn on maximize and empower and throw a firewall with a few delayed blast fireballs. dungeon alert now gone. If anything, that helped me conserve SP because I took out an efficient amount of mobs at the same time.

Now imagine the same instance with a melee. He does the same thing as a caster, but now he turns around and sees a horde of flesh golems and realizes he just became harried, even though nothing touched him. now they catch up to him, all have a boost to their AC, and hes flailing trying to get them off of him just to get pounded into the group because he can't get away.

I understand dungeon alert was primarily designed for the 2nd scenario - overwhelm a player and penalizing them for having so many mobs not killed. But what about the first scenario? casters are already considered overpowered compared to melees, but they can literally dance around dungeon alert as if it wasn't there.

DA as it is can only be described as broken and imbalanced in more than one way. personally I think we need to get rid of it entirely, but I have no idea what we could replace it with.

Xionanx
10-04-2011, 04:55 PM
I would replace it with a kobold dancing in the middle of your screen, singing "Staying Alive!"

nebogloee
10-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Depending on the layout - Bastion can be very painful with DA. One time our whole party had to move all the way through the first floor harried - took forever and more importantly NOT FUN. Worst part was the DA was at red after the second room - we had somehow aggro'd 20 some tieflings above us. (was running with a fvs - the aura might have made this run particularly bad imo)

EpiKagEMO
10-04-2011, 11:35 PM
/signed

just a pain dealing with the noobs that zerg and die. though i guess its better to do it myself, no?

deliph
10-05-2011, 12:12 AM
/signed..sort of

I like the DA..why shouldnt mobs mates hear them screaming and dying.....but the harried rubbish just makes no sence and is more irratating than a kobold with hicups!

Jendrak
10-05-2011, 12:23 AM
While I truly hate DA I have to give credit where credit is due. While it was not completely responsible, it was a part of the solution for the insane lag that used to plague this game. Ohhhh and before the "but it's still laggy" comments come pouring in I'm talking about serious freaking stuff not the minor stuff we have now. Now, that being said I think the system needs to be re-worked for quests that have huge spawns (bastion and coal come to mind) that give the player no other option but to cause red alert.

My suggestion would be to have DA work on a % of total mobs in quest and not a flat number system like it has now. This should take care of the problems we are seeing and at the same time assure that people are actually clearing the mobs as the original system intended.

ferrite
10-05-2011, 12:26 AM
Why was DA introduced? To discourage, but not prevent, zerging quests. That's an important distinction, as you CAN still zerg but at a price. But the real question that needs asked is this: Why do players feel the need to zerg quests to begin with? The answer is... drumroll..

--> The Quest is Boring <--

There. I said it. In violation of whatever gaming sacrament was placed on that pedestal, never to be spoken of except in hush-hush tone. Oh the shame.

Bleh. Players zerg quests because the quest is boring. Simple as that. Make an interesting quest, and players will no longer feel the need to zerg it. Heck they might even enjoy it. Yes stranger things have happened.

One of the best quests in the game IMHO is Partycrashers, involving a mix of combat, social interaction, planning (well not really, but still), good storyline, good narration, some slight humor, relatively decent music, a strong but not ridiculously OP boss fight optional for the level, etc. I've ran this at least a dozen times with different groups and different toons, and have yet to find a group that wants to zerg it, or is able to. This is a well designed, well thought out quest.

A few other quests are noteworthy: Acute Delirium for an interesting story and concept, The Sane Asylum for its unique way of presenting a challenging but not too difficult maze, and Tomb of the Tormented. But most of the others are regrettably either kill this or retrieve this item or solve this annoying puzzle, or survive this assault.

On a positive note the quality of quests do seem to be getting much better as the game matures. Oh and just kidding about the Tomb of the Tormented.. just wanted to check if you were still awake :cool:

mutantbee
10-05-2011, 12:26 AM
Funny little DA story.

With my new Artificer and dog I have made DA happen spontaneously by attacking oozes.

Dog runs into room full of oozes, starts attacking (thus splitting them) and then I open up with the repeater, splitting them more. BOOM! DA! One time I even became harried for a few seconds before we killed enough. I think I had dozens of little ooze fragments going.

Good times. woot.

grgurius
10-05-2011, 12:54 AM
I think maybe a better thing, that would be relatively easy, would be to give monsters a speed boost, and a reach boost, when DA goes up, so that running away doesn't prevent being attacked. This would be a sort of workaround for the lousy AI that has trouble hitting targets that are running away.



Dunno about this, running away should always be a viable option.

MRH
10-05-2011, 12:58 AM
I actually like DA and do agree with the posts on certain quests that it gets out of hand.

ok, so if you planned on doing the quest..... lets say as an analogy, a quest where you had to infiltrate a base and recover an item from a room say thats near the end of the quest.

So would you
1 : just barge in the complex and run by all the guards on your way to end room ?
or
2 : take your time through the hallways and eliminate whatever you encountered on your way to end room?

well doing it #1 way , you will soon have the whole complex on High Alert

doing #2 way, you can eliminate what you come across so they don't Alert the rest of the complex.

I do think they should tweak it a bit, but don't think they should remove it.

If they did then all you would see are ppl just zergin ,pulling everything to middle or end of quest then bam FW BB etc and quest is finished..... thats not fun. And if casters can do that so easily now even with DA, then maybe DA needs to disable casters casting ability for a short time or something.

The intention of DA is fine, just needs tweaking

Yan_PL
10-05-2011, 01:22 AM
Why was DA introduced? To discourage, but not prevent, zerging quests. That's an important distinction, as you CAN still zerg but at a price.DA discourages from doing quests with multiple-layer structure of unpreventable aggro, from splitting group into sub-groups to do certain tasks.

Since DA first came out, there's been a lot of changes. One of which is notable is that ALL damage started to be amplified by precentages. Getting harried for no reason, or for getting hit by arrow? no. Arrow hitting for 150% of damage because of Red DA? Challenging, but not really annoying. I'd say it's discouraging, but letting you deal with it.

Partycrashers handle the zergrush problem by putting up indestructible barriers untill you kil some mobs. You can't zerg those.

Problem with DA is that it became less dangerous than annoying. Other problem is, that it often does not work properly.
If main reason for DA was to keep low number of AI needing to be run by server, there should be a better way to reduce that number than forcing players to kill everything. For example, lowering attention span, or reducing aggro follow range of mobs, based on damage the mob actually taken - if you hurt something badly it would either run away, or pursue you, then lose aggro and reset. This way, server get less mobs to worry about.

noinfo
10-05-2011, 02:37 AM
Remove grazing hits too while you're at it. Both abominations were added together...

Now that is the perfect word for both :D Abomination

waterboytkd
10-05-2011, 02:56 AM
That's beside the point. let's look at two primary type of players into a dungeon and see how it affects each of them:

Last night I ran fleshmaker's laboratory with my caster. I ran past everything and anything, pulling levers before I could get interrupted and going straight through the quest. very shortly I see the little icon pop up near my buffs, changing colors fast - soon it becomes red, and instead of getting annoying I just grin. I turn around, see all the clumsy golems in one little group, turn on maximize and empower and throw a firewall with a few delayed blast fireballs. dungeon alert now gone. If anything, that helped me conserve SP because I took out an efficient amount of mobs at the same time.

Now imagine the same instance with a melee. He does the same thing as a caster, but now he turns around and sees a horde of flesh golems and realizes he just became harried, even though nothing touched him. now they catch up to him, all have a boost to their AC, and hes flailing trying to get them off of him just to get pounded into the group because he can't get away.

I understand dungeon alert was primarily designed for the 2nd scenario - overwhelm a player and penalizing them for having so many mobs not killed. But what about the first scenario? casters are already considered overpowered compared to melees, but they can literally dance around dungeon alert as if it wasn't there.

DA as it is can only be described as broken and imbalanced in more than one way. personally I think we need to get rid of it entirely, but I have no idea what we could replace it with.

This. DA hurts melees. Casters are largely undisturbed by it. That's bad.


I think maybe a better thing, that would be relatively easy, would be to give monsters a speed boost, and a reach boost, when DA goes up, so that running away doesn't prevent being attacked. This would be a sort of workaround for the lousy AI that has trouble hitting targets that are running away.

I like this. It hurts everyone equally, and when I'm running my melee and the zerging caster racks up red DA, I wouldn't necessarily just die to the first group of mobs I come across because I can't hit them and they can't miss me.

AMDarkwolf
10-05-2011, 03:32 AM
i'd change DA to be a little more complicated than it is now, but work the same.
Basically the way it works now, is somehow, if 10 bats at the bottom of an endless pit know about you, somehow that trio of ogres in the forest outside 'notice' you. This is fail in every way.

Alert should only 'alert' the mobs within the range of the mobs who 'notice' the player, no more. This is why its stupid for dungeons like bastion, where somehow mobs can see you though 2foot thick floors and walls.

Wish the dev's would do something, but I know, like so many others do, that very little of what the 'player' says goes into consideration when they design new 'features'

Actually I think they should just give all casters unlimited mana, a special FOM vs DA, and call it a day. :P

Cogdoc
10-05-2011, 03:32 AM
This. DA hurts melees. Casters are largely undisturbed by it. That's bad.

Dear Waterboy,

I just want to point out in reaction to your quoted statement, that casters are greatly endangered by reducing their movement, even more than a melee. Although they retain their spellcasting effectiveness, a caster will always be more squishy than a melee, thus depending on mobility and dodging incoming attacks more to survive. I think it puts them into the same bucket with melee in terms of DA, or if not the same, not far away.

Cogdoc

AMDarkwolf
10-05-2011, 03:33 AM
Dear Waterboy,

I just want to point out in reaction to your quoted statement, that casters are greatly endangered by reducing their movement, even more than a melee. Although they retain their spellcasting effectiveness, a caster will always be more squishy than a melee, thus depending on mobility and dodging incoming attacks more to survive. I think it puts them into the same bucket with melee in terms of DA, or if not the same, not far away.

Cogdoc


Think again.

Melee must step into mob face. HARRIED.

Caster 'boing, boing, jumpity jump, haste, HAHAHHAAHAHHA ' firewall, casts, blasts, HAHAHAHAH hastes, rage, LOOK CAN'T TOUCH ME' NOT HARRIED!

Notice the difference?

Now to make it FAIR lets do this. Lets make all mobs get +5/10/15/20 to saves(depending on level of alert), and give them 25/50/75/100% resist to all spell damage depending on alert level.

THERE YA GO, now u see what melee's have to face. if they did that, the DA system would be equally annoying/punishing to all(IE not fun.. DUH...)

Cogdoc
10-05-2011, 03:59 AM
Think again.

Melee must step into mob face. HARRIED.

Caster 'boing, boing, jumpity jump, haste, HAHAHHAAHAHHA ' firewall, casts, blasts, HAHAHAHAH hastes, rage, LOOK CAN'T TOUCH ME' NOT HARRIED!

Notice the difference?

I see your point, and if you take the super duper wizard who can jump around all the time in a way, that he never gets hit, as a base of comparism, you can also put the super duper melee into the other hand who distributes headshots of 8000 damage in an arc to any group of opponents with a bent fork.

It is not always possible to avoid hits, even if you are ranged, you should really know that if you have played any ranged characters. After you are getting hit though, casters go down in a blink, while melee shouldnt die in one or two hit attempts. Thats where the survivability of melee comes into play.

Caster is: Not Hit due to jumping action x4, Hit x2 = dead
Melee is: Not hit due to AC x2, Hit and soak up damage x4, = alive.

I dont see a problem here even if casters can avoid DA easier than melee, as casters and melee should behave very differently in most of the situations you can meet in DDO. They have the perks and the flaws, as melee do. I am pretty sure melee didnt complain about imbalance when raids only took 1 arcane in 12 players, just because he/she was only used for buffing. These two types are different in so many aspects, you cannot balance them completely.

Cogdoc

Clay
10-05-2011, 04:22 AM
Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

Cetus
10-05-2011, 06:37 AM
Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

This would be the simplest and most elegant solution.

NaturalHazard
10-05-2011, 06:49 AM
I will wait until Memnir or Mr. Cow say something to agree with them :D

I just have no idea if DA is good or bad. Really, no joking.


/facepalm!!

This is one reason why the world is so messed up.

NaturalHazard
10-05-2011, 06:51 AM
Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

Bats can communicate, well enough to send out distress signals that let the colony know predators are around.

A lot of bats use echo location.

But yeah I agree with ya, unless they are special guard trained bats lmao.

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 07:25 AM
I see your point, and if you take the super duper wizard who can jump around all the time in a way, that he never gets hit, as a base of comparism, you can also put the super duper melee into the other hand who distributes headshots of 8000 damage in an arc to any group of opponents with a bent fork.

It is not always possible to avoid hits, even if you are ranged, you should really know that if you have played any ranged characters. After you are getting hit though, casters go down in a blink, while melee shouldnt die in one or two hit attempts. Thats where the survivability of melee comes into play.

Caster is: Not Hit due to jumping action x4, Hit x2 = dead
Melee is: Not hit due to AC x2, Hit and soak up damage x4, = alive.

I dont see a problem here even if casters can avoid DA easier than melee, as casters and melee should behave very differently in most of the situations you can meet in DDO. They have the perks and the flaws, as melee do. I am pretty sure melee didnt complain about imbalance when raids only took 1 arcane in 12 players, just because he/she was only used for buffing. These two types are different in so many aspects, you cannot balance them completely.

Cogdoc

Casters can avoid DA much more easily than melee and casters can kill large numbers of trash *much* more easily than melee can. That's why melee tend to kill small groups of enemies as they encounter them while casters (Arcanes always and Divines once they get BB) can sprint past all of these groups until they have red alert and reach a choke point and then proceed to slaughter those mobs with various persistent AoE spells.

And, honestly, saying that melee are more surviveable than casters is just plain silly. Most melee types can be made to be surviveable while leveling, but it takes a remarkable amount of highly specialized gear for most melee to do so. Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers, Clerics and FvS get that surviveablility with just one spell.

Do you have a mid to high level Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer, Cleric or FvS? I'm not saying that you don't - that's an honest question. Because if you do have one of those and you're dying more often than a melee character when soloing, when in a party or when in a raid, then you're doing it wrong.

Cogdoc
10-05-2011, 07:44 AM
I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

I wonder if all wizards are like that, what do melee do? Picking flowers in the back?...:)

Cogdoc

P.s.: High level artificer whom I had such experiences with in a raid? No, but thanks for the compliment...:)

Razcar
10-05-2011, 08:13 AM
Didn't Eladrin of MadFloyd or someone state that from their end there was a very obvious decrease in server load so DA was not going anywhere?

I thought there was a post about it somewhere, but I just don't care enough to search for it.
Think it was a post by Tarrant actually. But I don't care to search for it either. :)


Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless melee clickfest.:rolleyes:
The executive producer has changed several times since then, like what, 4-5 times? Judith Hoffman, James Jones, Kate, Fernando... (and someone else I think, that I forget now). I hate DA as much as anyone, but clearly the intentions for the game has changed over the staff changes and years. I think DA was more of a convenient economical solution than anything else, since it spared them from throwing money (i.e. hardware) on the AI lag problem. And alternative DDO game styles - like not killing every bat in the quest - was a sacrifice they were willing to make. After all, lots of people like Diablo.

Hellllboy
10-05-2011, 08:28 AM
Name them.

Coal Chamber.

I ran this the other day-did not skip any mobs-was in Red by the time I got to a red named due to an influx of respawns and could not do dmg. to the boss.

No zerg + clear garbage should not equal a game mechanic that fails to complete a quest.

dkyle
10-05-2011, 08:32 AM
I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

Raids are generally different from 6-man quests.

Raids aren't generally about mobs. They're about bosses. Traditionally, casters weren't as good at killing bosses as melee. Nowadays, they can be just as good if not better. For most Raids, anyone still doing the old "one or two arcanes, no more" is a fool.

Most of the discussion in this thread is about quests. DA is rarely an issue in Raids. In quests, where the boss isn't a big deal, and the bulk of the fighting is against trash, a caster is better than melee in basically every way.

dkyle
10-05-2011, 08:37 AM
Dunno about this, running away should always be a viable option.

Why? If you mess up and get the dungeon into red alert, with dozens of mobs on your tail, why should you just be able to run away? How does that make any sense, really? From a realism perspective, or a game design perspective?

Running away is OP in DDO. Kiting is way too easy.

Cogdoc
10-05-2011, 08:40 AM
Raids aren't generally about mobs. They're about bosses. Traditionally, casters weren't as good at killing bosses as melee. Nowadays, they can be just as good if not better. For most Raids, anyone still doing the old "one or two arcanes, no more" is a fool.

Most of the discussion in this thread is about quests. DA is rarely an issue in Raids. In quests, where the boss isn't a big deal, and the bulk of the fighting is against trash, a caster is better than melee in basically every way.

Okay guys I give up. I have probably less experience with this game than you do, you are right, arcanes are much better in every way than melee bar raid bosses where they are close to equal but arcanes are still better. You can all kneel before my wizard and the lucky melee will get my blessing.

Cogdoc

Machination
10-05-2011, 08:47 AM
DA is something that at times can be extremely irritating. Knowing a quest and when and what to do in said quest (or adventure area) goes a long way in avoiding that ever so rare DA wipe.

Now that being said, I really hope the devs have "improve DA mechanics" on their list of things to do. I don't think it is something that needs to be removed, just needs to stay on the list of things to improve. It is something that could be improved.

SHOCK_and_AWE
10-05-2011, 08:51 AM
I will wait until Memnir or Mr. Cow say something to agree with them :D

I just have no idea if DA is good or bad. Really, no joking.

Now you have +rep for just SAYING you will agree with them. Good job!

morticianjohn
10-05-2011, 08:58 AM
Eh... outside of the places where it's blatantly broken (Bastion, Coal Chamber), it's just one more challenge to overcome that makes the game more interesting. I wouldn't say it's ideal as it is, but I think it's better than not having it. Ideal would be better AI and hit detection on moving targets, but that's a tall order to fill.

I totally agree with you. So /signed to fixing the DA in quests where it's broken however, in 90%+ of all quests I do this is not the case.

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 09:02 AM
I am definitely doing it wrong, as for example when I, (as you have said, with my high level Arcane) wanted to join some raids people only wanted the less survival melee, because they have already had one caster in the group. I couldnt imagine why they said that when my wizard, regarding to the posts here, can:

1- Completely avoid all damage, even with red DA
2- Group up all the mobs and kill them all with one spell, without endangering himself
3- Have perfect survivability due to one spell.

I wonder if all wizards are like that, what do melee do? Picking flowers in the back?...:)

Cogdoc

P.s.: High level artificer whom I had such experiences with in a raid? No, but thanks for the compliment...:)

Honestly, the idea of "only 2 arcanes at most" is just flat out bewildering to me outside of a couple of very specialized raids (VoD in particular where aggro management is much more important than DPS). I seriously hope that none of those were Shrouds that you were declined from.

. 1) Wizards and Sorcs don't avoid all damage during red alert. They slaughter their enemies and see them driven before us with persistant AoE spells while avoiding *most* of the damage and healing through whatever damage does hit them.

. 2) group up large numbers of enemies and kill them with a very small number of spells while putting themselves in very little danger because most of the swarm of enemies can't actually reach them to attack at the same time and because those AoE spells kill *very* quickly, so the period of danger is limited. A single Maximised, Empowered Fireball with a Superior Inferno III or greater clicky running is enough to kill just about anything that isn't at least an orange named enemy on Normal up until you hit Gianthold. At Gianthold and later, you have to work a little harder, but not much. Enemies drop like flies to Banishment and similar spells once you hit the Vale of Twilight.

. 3) No one has perfect survivability. Put a melee character in a swarm of 15 level appropriate enemies during red alert and I guarantee that they'll die faster than a decent Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/FvS (and probably Artificer, although I don't know that for sure due to limited experience with the class - only got up to level 12 on Llamaland) because that Wizard/Sorc/Cleric/FvS can self heal and can clear out those 15 enemies *much* faster than the melee character can because most spells are unaffected by red alert while melee characters kill enemies much more slowly during red alert.

My point wasn't that casters can survive red alert perfectly and will always complete every quest without dying ever. My point was that they survive red alert better than melees and that their play style tends to be a lot different because of a variety of AoE spells at their disposal (not just one single spell now that Wall of Fire has been tamed) and because of outstanding damage mitigation spells/abilities and self healing.

Edit: formatting

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 09:04 AM
Okay guys I give up. I have probably less experience with this game than you do, you are right, arcanes are much better in every way than melee bar raid bosses where they are close to equal but arcanes are still better. You can all kneel before my wizard and the lucky melee will get my blessing.

Cogdoc

I know that was sarcasm, but after U9, that really does seem like the case in DDO. When I want to have fun and play with my weapons, I log on to my Fighter. When I want to be truly effective, I log on to my Wizard or FvS.

Airgeadlam
10-05-2011, 09:39 AM
Protokon has pointed out a very important matter in DA, the big gap between casters (either arcane or divine ones) and melees. DA with my FvS means: Stop, holy aura, BB, wing forth, wing back, wing forth again if needed (noted I only used 3/5 of my wings-in-a-row uses, Alert! Some dev would want to nerf it again), solved. With my melees... well, better have some help.

I also agree with the DM metaphor Memnir has presented. When our DM in pnp planned something, and someone managed to overcome the situation in a non expected way, it was fun. Our DM had fun too while saying "Wow, you caught me with that move, well played". In a different scenario, if our DM, seeing how the players avoid the danger/solve the issue on a non expected way, freaked out and said "Oh, really, well, suddenly a pack of 12 giant red dragons turn the corner in front of you", we probably had chosen not to play with him again. Why? Because is not fun.

If the devs want me to kill every single mob in quest, well, better give me reason to do it. And no, I do not consider "Either you kill every single mob or suddenly even the lousiest of the kobolds will have magical powers and will destroy you in a matter of seconds" a valid reason. And that considering the DA is working, cause I'm a bit tired of stepping 2 feet into "A new invasion" and causing yellow alert for no reason, with no mobs near me.

I would like to say "Do not remove DA, but fix it"... but well, considering how "fixes" work, better remove it entirely, and place something instead: A better AI, new quests with different goals/tactics (not a twisted corridor with lots of mobs in it and a big mob in the end), or even enhancing the XP bonus for conquest optional. Want to encourage grouping? Make all classes have a point. Want to encourage killing all/disarm all/find this and that? Make it worthy. Why would I spend 15 minutes more in a quest, to get +50xp and **** lvl2 items in a far away chest? (Just have come to my mind the optional in Weapons Shipment... long/boring/harded even than the quest itself... and.. for what? 1000xp and some trash items)

Samadhi
10-05-2011, 09:41 AM
/signed.

Ugumagre
10-05-2011, 10:00 AM
/facepalm!!

This is one reason why the world is so messed up.

Sorry! From now on I will only agree with you!

But seriously... I dont know about DA. Never did coal chamber.

dkyle
10-05-2011, 10:25 AM
I also agree with the DM metaphor Memnir has presented. When our DM in pnp planned something, and someone managed to overcome the situation in a non expected way, it was fun. Our DM had fun too while saying "Wow, you caught me with that move, well played". In a different scenario, if our DM, seeing how the players avoid the danger/solve the issue on a non expected way, freaked out and said "Oh, really, well, suddenly a pack of 12 giant red dragons turn the corner in front of you", we probably had chosen not to play with him again. Why? Because is not fun.

Except that DA is a well-known part of the game mechanics.

If you move away from an enemy in 3.5, and the DM makes an opportunity attack on you, is the DM trying to ruin your fun, and prevent you from solving the problem as you wanted to?


I would like to say "Do not remove DA, but fix it"... but well, considering how "fixes" work, better remove it entirely, and place something instead: A better AI, new quests with different goals/tactics (not a twisted corridor with lots of mobs in it and a big mob in the end), or even enhancing the XP bonus for conquest optional. Want to encourage grouping? Make all classes have a point. Want to encourage killing all/disarm all/find this and that? Make it worthy.

Rather than fixing the specific system, fix the entire game to make the system unnecessary? A nice dream, but I don't think it's very realistic.

Lence
10-05-2011, 11:35 AM
Ugh, this thing is one of the reasons I left the game.

One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

This is also when they started adding doors that only opened when you killed all the trash.

Adding **** mechanics like this just limits alternative and creative play styles. I mean gods forbid if a "Sneaky Rogue" could actually use stealth to complete a quest instead of the almighty DPS.

Its unfortunate that some people are so narrow-minded (especially with this being D&D) that they think if you are not doing it the way they think you should, then you should not be doing it at all.

dkyle
10-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Ugh, this thing is one of the reasons I left the game.

One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

I could be wrong, but I don't think Archers actually count towards DA. It always seems to me like only mobile enemies count. But that's just my overall sense, not something I've really tried to verify. I know in delaras, I only kill the few archers that actually trigger doors to open. That certainly doesn't take "5 minutes".


Adding **** mechanics like this just limits alternative and creative play styles. I mean gods forbid if a "Sneaky Rogue" could actually use stealth to complete a quest instead of the almighty DPS.

Lots of quests can be stealthed. Coal Chamber, for example, the vast majority of it can be stealthed.

You don't have to kill everything, but if you make your presence known to your enemies, and you just run away, that can have a tendency to cause you complications. In principle, that makes plenty of sense to me.

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 11:53 AM
That's beside the point. let's look at two primary type of players into a dungeon and see how it affects each of them:

Last night I ran fleshmaker's laboratory with my caster. I ran past everything and anything, pulling levers before I could get interrupted and going straight through the quest. very shortly I see the little icon pop up near my buffs, changing colors fast - soon it becomes red, and instead of getting annoying I just grin. I turn around, see all the clumsy golems in one little group, turn on maximize and empower and throw a firewall with a few delayed blast fireballs. dungeon alert now gone. If anything, that helped me conserve SP because I took out an efficient amount of mobs at the same time.

Now imagine the same instance with a melee. He does the same thing as a caster, but now he turns around and sees a horde of flesh golems and realizes he just became harried, even though nothing touched him. now they catch up to him, all have a boost to their AC, and hes flailing trying to get them off of him just to get pounded into the group because he can't get away.

I understand dungeon alert was primarily designed for the 2nd scenario - overwhelm a player and penalizing them for having so many mobs not killed. But what about the first scenario? casters are already considered overpowered compared to melees, but they can literally dance around dungeon alert as if it wasn't there.

DA as it is can only be described as broken and imbalanced in more than one way. personally I think we need to get rid of it entirely, but I have no idea what we could replace it with.

That's a good example... DA does not impose the same penalties on a caster (capable of mass AOE damage) as it does on a melee... so that part may be broken.

However, DA works exactly as the devs intended.... You DO turn around and kill them now... In the old days, you'd just run past everything and kill nothing, using ladders to avoid them from ever catching up to you.

DA is NOT a mechanism to stop zerging. The devs are okay with zerging, as long as you kill most of the monsters at some point. And in that respect it works.

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Or at least factor OUT mobs like Scorpions, Rats and Bats, which are often vermin, of animal intelligence and non-communicative. They are not part of the enemy's defenses (barring "special" aberrations).

I agree with this.

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Coal Chamber.

I ran this the other day-did not skip any mobs-was in Red by the time I got to a red named due to an influx of respawns and could not do dmg. to the boss.

No zerg + clear garbage should not equal a game mechanic that fails to complete a quest.

Let me guess... you got to the top room, got the first key. then dropped down to the bottom room, aggroing all the respawned casters and archers on the ledges...

Here's a little hint. Kill them on the way down...

(1) It's MUCH easier to kill them falling on them from above, then trying to run up to them from below.
(2) They only respawn that one time.. Kill them on the way down, they won't be there when you run back up.
(3) No DA issues at all.

All that said, I do agree that they should change DA mechanics in Coal Chamber. But to call the quest "unplayable" is incorrect.

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 12:24 PM
One more way the Devs tried to force you to stand around for 5 minutes beating pointless Skele Archers with way too many HP to death. (Deleras)

FYI... If you kill all the other mobs, you can run past the archers.


Its unfortunate that some people are so narrow-minded (especially with this being D&D) that they think if you are not doing it the way they think you should, then you should not be doing it at all.

The problem is that power-gamers would run past EVERYTHING, kill the boss, loot the end-chest and repeat... You think any DM in D&D would allow that?

It's one thing to be flexible as a DM, it's another to allow your players to do whatever they want without consequence.

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 12:31 PM
The problem is that power-gamers would run past EVERYTHING, kill the boss, loot the end-chest and repeat... You think any DM in D&D would allow that?

It's one thing to be flexible as a DM, it's another to allow your players to do whatever they want without consequence.

I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

dkyle
10-05-2011, 12:35 PM
I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

But that's really what it does. If you run past too much, you risk getting red alert, and harried, and then it's much harder to run past anymore. DA is part of DDO's design, now.

I agree that it isn't an optimal design, but I don't see it as equivalent to some kind of "jerk DM" thing.

Flavilandile
10-05-2011, 12:51 PM
I'd start investing in trash that is harder to run past instead of penalizing the players for my poor quest design.

"Hay guys! You didn't kill the enemies in the easily avoidable encounter that I spent hours designing!"

As we are comparing PnP to DDO... you don't run past an encounter in PnP... If you do the DM will make sure you won't be able to do it on the next one.

DA, doors that needs to be opened ( anybody remember CO6 Pt2 without the doors ? ) and doors that needs mob killed are the ( despised ) answer of DDO DM to people that just ran through content without bothering.
There's nothing wrong with zerging if you can do it intelligently. ( even if I don't like zerging )

While I don't like DA for what it is, it's something I've learned to cope with.
And by the way I never go to red in Coal, if you kill all the mob, you barely reach Yellow, maybe Orange, when going down the shaft. ( if you don't kill the mob while going down ).

yk49
10-05-2011, 01:08 PM
i too hate unfair red alters, such as ones commonly happen in Bastion of Power and Coal Chamber.
but lets talk about something new here. i wonder if red alter in MA raid is intentional or not. it looks to be so. Toven wants to overwhelm us by number after all.
and pretty much bard fascinate is the only way to handle it, right? they dont want us to complete raids without a bard?

Airgeadlam
10-05-2011, 01:31 PM
Except that DA is a well-known part of the game mechanics.

Two points on that:

1 - If I recall correctly, from what I've read, DA was not present when DDO was launched, it was something added later. If it is an addition, then could not be exactly something core to the game mechanics.

2 - The fact that something is a "well-known part of the game mechanics" does not mean that is a good part, a desirable one, a fun one or even a well thought one.


If you move away from an enemy in 3.5, and the DM makes an opportunity attack on you, is the DM trying to ruin your fun, and prevent you from solving the problem as you wanted to?

No he's not, but, and correct me if I'm wrong... the enemy gets one attack, right? Then you're running and the enemy might chase you, if he wants. The DM is not giving him some magical power that renders you almost helpless, slowing your movements like if you were in a bad dramatic scene from a movie. Also, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 3.5, you can prevent that from happening via moves (getting away from combat at 2x movement rate not causing attack of opportunity) or making harder to hit you via feats (Mobility giving you +4 AC when crossing menaced areas). Comparing an attack of opportunity, which is quite fine, with the DA system is a bit demagogue.


Rather than fixing the specific system, fix the entire game to make the system unnecessary? A nice dream, but I don't think it's very realistic.

Again, is not fixing the whole game. If DA system is an addition, then could be removed. I just pointed out that when it comes to "fix" issues, suddenly the devs come with something that hit the players harder. Not dreaming at all. Do I like it/think is a good feature? No (Can I be wrong? Sure, but does not change the fact that I don't like it). Can it be fixed somehow? Maybe, but don't know how to fix it or which changes do to improve it without causing other issues in the game, so... Remove it. It was added, it can be removed. That's all. Do the Devs want the players to go slower and kill everything? Well, they created DA, surely they can come up with another thing.

Also, forgot to say in my first post:

/signed.

Denegrator
10-05-2011, 01:32 PM
Let me guess... you got to the top room, got the first key. then dropped down to the bottom room, aggroing all the respawned casters and archers on the ledges...

Here's a little hint. Kill them on the way down...

(1) It's MUCH easier to kill them falling on them from above, then trying to run up to them from below.
(2) They only respawn that one time.. Kill them on the way down, they won't be there when you run back up.
(3) No DA issues at all.

All that said, I do agree that they should change DA mechanics in Coal Chamber. But to call the quest "unplayable" is incorrect.

Here's a better hint, cast invis, and stealth drop down to the next room. No aggro = No DA. ;)

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 01:38 PM
Do the Devs want the players to go slower and kill everything? Well, they created DA, surely they can come up with another thing.


Heh, careful what you ask for...

And don't call me Shirley :)

Airgeadlam
10-05-2011, 01:55 PM
Heh, careful what you ask for...

And don't call me Shirley :)

True, better not asking too much :)

Autechre
10-05-2011, 02:15 PM
I just find the harried effect extremely annoying. Perhaps quests get more challenging this way but that harried effect is SOOOOOOO annoying.
Maybe a different approach would be better something like monsters deal 5% more damage per alert.

Cyr
10-05-2011, 02:17 PM
As we are comparing PnP to DDO... you don't run past an encounter in PnP... If you do the DM will make sure you won't be able to do it on the next one.


Sure you do. If you have a character with superior movement rate, stealth, or some other way of avoiding encounters and utilize them then you are playing smart. Good DM's allow their players to use the capabilities of their own characters. If players love avoiding encounters fine. If they love busting down doors and drawing the entire dungeon to them fine. Both are the choices of the players and good DM's have the adventure progress in an even handed manner based upon these choices. They do not start making every monster able to fly because the PC's like fly spells or have every monster memorize Dimensional Anchor because one of the PC's is a wizard who has an item that casts DD unlimited times per day.

Ungood
10-05-2011, 02:45 PM
After reading much of this. It gave me some things to think about.

First being Col Chamber: Personally, I have not gone above a yellow in this dungeon, and that was with running past the bats/scorp(Trash) from time to time, So I have no idea how people are pulling Red DA in this place.

Now. DA is not contingent on how fast you do a dungeon, it is contingent on how many mobs you agro and do not kill (remove agro from). Which makes sense as a Lag reduction mechanic. Which I will try to explain:

First we need to group player types. And there seems to be a bit of ambiguity as to what Zerger means. So I am going to use the following groups:

Blitz Runners: These are the players that just amp up their striding, and run though the zone, trying to get to the end fight (and kill the end boss) as fast as humanly possible.

Rambo's: These players move though a dungeon as fast as they can while annihilating everything in their path in a stampede of destruction and mayhem. They may or may not do the traps, typically just for exp if they do. Typically experienced/geared players.

Crawlers: These people work their way though the Dungeon. doing pretty much what a Rambo's does, just a lot a slower. Normally do all the optional and stop for all the traps. May be very new to the quest, or have several new players in the group.

So. If we say that Turbine has 60K people willing to "Like" them on Facebook. Lets just assume that is 50% of their population. So. a base of 120K players in their game.

This, if we guess that 25% are Blitz Runners, 50% are Rambo and 25% are Crawlers for a nominal breakdown of figures (Which I just am making up as I am going along).

That would mean 30K players are Blitz, 60 K are Rambo and 30K are Crawlers. Which are all arbitrary numbers, that I am opting to work with, because I think they make some sense, and hopefully somewhat accurately describe the situation as simple as I can roll it down into a ho-ho cake snack.

Now lets be Honest, most Blitz Runners do not need or want a group, at best they may two man it, for efficiency, but a larger group just slows them down and makes the dungeon harder for no gain . So when they hit a dungeon, they Hit it in tight teams or solo. This they take up anywhere from 15 - 30K instances. if they agro 50 Mobs per instance (red alert) the server needs to handle anywhere from 750,000 mobs to 1,500,000 Mobs.

Rambo's can easily rampage a dungeon in a team or short man groups, Normally tight friends, or even some pugs. So. We just guess that they will run with a group from 2 - 5 players. So this group of players making up 50% of the game base, will take up anywhere from 15-25K instances, and because they slaughter and destroy as they go, normally never seeing more then 10 mobs alive at any time, and if they do, they fix that little problem in a jiffy. So they take up 150,000 - 250,000 Mob AI's at most.

Now Crawlers, like to wait for full groups, otherwise they are dead. So, they normally run with 4 - 6 person teams. If they short man it with 4, then Hires will be called up to save the day. So this group takes up anywhere from 5 - 7.5 K Instances. And really can't handle more then 8 mobs at a time. So they weigh in at agro-ing somewhere between 40,000 - 60,000 mobs.

So., we look at this, and the Crawlers are taking up less then 25% of the system resouces that the Blitz Runners are, for the same number players.

DA is designed not to stop players from Rushing though a zone, by all means. Rush! But DA is designed to stop players from pulling system resources when they do not have to.

So. Personally. Anyone should have the freedom to play as they want, more power to them. But, at the same time, if they are pulling resources and that is causing lag on the server as a a whole, I can respect a means to find a way to stop that, as it hurts everyone's game.

countfitz
10-05-2011, 04:55 PM
/signed

fuzzy1guy
10-05-2011, 04:58 PM
DA isnt that bad.

Harried however... From a miss... That crud needs to go.

Vyrn
10-05-2011, 05:09 PM
Many years ago when DDO was first announced we were promised the possibility of solving quests "Multiple Ways" being able "Avoid and Bypass" enemies using "Gameplay and Strategy". We were told that "as a rogue, you will be able to sneak past a lot of encounters to complete your goal". So on and so forth.

What we have now is a 3D Diablo clone where you enter a quest and kill everything in sight in a mindless caster clickfest.:rolleyes:

Granted its still fun, but it could use some improvements, too bad the lead developers are insane or are following some ridiculous plan.

There you go

Adrian99
10-05-2011, 05:12 PM
Quote from Tarrant:

"Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well. No, it hasn't completely fixed the lag problem, but I can assure you Dungeon Alert does far more good than harm.

There will always be players that second-guess what we say, even with no evidence other than their own assumptions, but for those of you that are unsure, take my word for it. Dungeon Alert is a good thing."

Original Post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2967434&postcount=16

My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

Vordax
10-05-2011, 05:18 PM
Here is a post from Eladrin about Dungeon Alert (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2989237&highlight=alert#post2989237) also.

Vordax

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 05:24 PM
My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

I don't have hard data (because that is not available to the players) that contradicts the above assertion, but there is still lots to discuss because even if Dungeon Alert *does* reduce lag, there are lots of other ways that pathing and perception calculations could be reduced (chief among them is just to deactivate any enemy that rubberbands) without the large annoyance factor currently found with Harried status and Dungeon Alert.

Ungood
10-05-2011, 05:59 PM
I don't have hard data.

Thank you for your post. Your feelings on this matter have been noted.

Gorbadoc
10-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Quote from Tarrant:

"Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well. No, it hasn't completely fixed the lag problem, but I can assure you Dungeon Alert does far more good than harm.

There will always be players that second-guess what we say, even with no evidence other than their own assumptions, but for those of you that are unsure, take my word for it. Dungeon Alert is a good thing."

Original Post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2967434&postcount=16

My Question:

Is anyone able to cite hard data which contradicts the above assertion? If not, what is there to add to the discussion?

Bear with me a moment:
Dungeon Alert increases the number of players who can be handled by a given quantity of server hardware. Before Dungeon Alert, I remember having an entire map's worth of aggro on me without apparent loss of game performance-- during off-hours, the game handled people running past monsters just fine.

Presumably, one alternative to Dungeon Alert would be to greatly increase the amount of server power per player.

Can Turbine spend the necessary money on us?
Should Turbine spend the necessary money on us?

I honestly don't know-- the additional hard data we would need would be Turbine financial information. How much are servers costing them now? Just how much of the money they collect from us is going into the game (as physical hardware or as software development) versus going to Time Warner as profits? How much would it cost per player to get rid of Dungeon Alert while keeping the lag down?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me where to find this information? Time Warner's 2010 annual report contains exactly one mention of Turbine Inc. and zero mentions of "dungeon" or "dragon". The Turbine site itself doesn't even have an Investor Relations section that I could find.

Adrian99
10-05-2011, 06:07 PM
Bear with me a moment:
Dungeon Alert increases the number of players who can be handled by a given quantity of server hardware. Before Dungeon Alert, I remember having an entire map's worth of aggro on me without apparent loss of game performance-- during off-hours, the game handled people running past monsters just fine.

Presumably, one alternative to Dungeon Alert would be to greatly increase the amount of server power per player.

Can Turbine spend the necessary money on us?
Should Turbine spend the necessary money on us?

I honestly don't know-- the additional hard data we would need would be Turbine financial information. How much are servers costing them now? Just how much of the money they collect from us is going into the game (as physical hardware or as software development) versus going to Time Warner as profits? How much would it cost per player to get rid of Dungeon Alert while keeping the lag down?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me where to find this information? Time Warner's 2010 annual report contains exactly one mention of Turbine Inc. and zero mentions of "dungeon" or "dragon". The Turbine site itself doesn't even have an Investor Relations section that I could find.

I completely agree with you, my post probably seemed rude because you couldn't see the look on my face. What I meant was, on the topic of DA, Turbine has hard data that it is critical to preventing lag, and at best all we have is anecdotal evidence. In a scientific debate, we don't stand a chance. It's hard data vs. anecdotal evidence, and only one can win :)

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 06:24 PM
Thank you for your post. Your feelings on this matter have been noted.

...so, the fact that I don't have data that Turbine doesn't release to its players means that I can't have an opinion on whether Turbine should choose a different (and equally effective) avenue toward the goal of reducing lag than the current Dungeon Alert which is widely despised?

Gorbadoc
10-05-2011, 06:30 PM
I completely agree with you, my post probably seemed rude because you couldn't see the look on my face. What I meant was, on the topic of DA, Turbine has hard data that it is critical to preventing lag, and at best all we have is anecdotal evidence. In a scientific debate, we don't stand a chance. It's hard data vs. anecdotal evidence, and only one can win :)

I didn't think you were being rude at all. Many people conflate "enthusiastic criticism" with "being rude". I think the mistake has something to do with inadequate self esteem and lousy critical thinking skills.

I was being completely serious about wanting to see Turbine's financials, by the way. There are MANY cool game features that could be added within a year, if Turbine would just spend enough money.

I'd feel much better about paying Turbine if I knew the lion's share of my money was going toward creating and delivering my game experience. Then again, I'd also feel pretty silly paying Turbine if it turned out most of my money was being spent on stock dividends.

Gorbadoc
10-05-2011, 06:33 PM
...so, the fact that I don't have data that Turbine doesn't release to its players means that I can't have an opinion on whether Turbine should choose a different (and equally effective) avenue toward the goal of reducing lag than the current Dungeon Alert which is widely despised?

The point is that you can't know whether the bit in red is true.

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 06:38 PM
The point is that you can't know whether the bit in red is true.

I can't know whether any particular solution that I can think of will be true for the bit in red, but I can (and do) know that an equally (or more) effective solution exists.

(edited for clarity)

Ungood
10-05-2011, 06:59 PM
I can't know whether any particular solution that I can think of will be true for the bit in red, but I can (and do) know that an equally (or more) effective solution exists.

(edited for clarity)

Can you provide proof of this claim?

gloopygloop
10-05-2011, 07:09 PM
Can you provide proof of this claim?

Yes.

Here's a link to the first part of my proof. Because this is the English language section of the forums, I am linking an English tranlation instead of the original German version.

http://www.math-wiki.com/images/5/5e/Canon00-goedel.pdf

Let me know when you've finished that part and I'll provide the next.

MrTops
10-05-2011, 07:39 PM
This bit from the Tarrant quote:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dungeon Alert helps lag. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Our data proves this, and your ability to continue to enjoy the game despite the enormous increase in player population we've seen since DDO Unlimited launched should be an indicator as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2967434&postcount=16

It's like saying, 'we're making more money because we have more players but, instead or using the increased revenue to keep up service we're opting for just slowing you all down instead'.

shores11
10-05-2011, 07:41 PM
/not signed

I like dungeon alert and it has improved the game play immensely.

Ungood
10-05-2011, 07:41 PM
Yes.

Here's a link to the first part of my proof.

Your opinion the matter is noted. Thank you.

MrTops
10-05-2011, 08:01 PM
In case I hadn't pointed it out:

I think dungeon alert is stupid.

Just because you have alerted a bunch of bad guys to your presence doesn't mean the bad guys get suddenly tougher. Or develop an aura that means your are stunned and run slow.

It doesn't make any real world sense and isn't a PnP thing.

Surely the plan is to fix the AI and pathing so awakened mobs follow you effectively and then you have to deal with them all.

Antheal
10-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Why on earth to Monsters get tougher on DA-Red?

It makes them tougher and harder to hit, thereby actively preventing you from being able to kill them to REDUCE the Dungeon Alert!

It's a vicious cycle. Keep the harried and slowdown effect if you have to, but give us the ability to get rid of our Dungeon Alert easier if you want us to reduce the server strain on multiple mob AIs active at the same time...

Thrudh
10-05-2011, 09:12 PM
Why on earth to Monsters get tougher on DA-Red?

It makes them tougher and harder to hit, thereby actively preventing you from being able to kill them to REDUCE the Dungeon Alert!

It's a vicious cycle. Keep the harried and slowdown effect if you have to, but give us the ability to get rid of our Dungeon Alert easier if you want us to reduce the server strain on multiple mob AIs active at the same time...

Yeah, what we really need is some kind of warning system so we know when we're getting close to red alert... Then we could start killing the mobs BEFORE they get super-tough and harder to hit...

Maybe they could implement a green alert as a warning, then maybe yellow and orange after that to really let you know that things are getting worse...

That would be awesome!

MRH
10-05-2011, 09:23 PM
lol Trudh

another idea would be to use the Weather alert system like on tv and radio

Loud annoying beeps with scrolling marque on screen that says :

" you are making me angry ! you won't like me when im angry ! "

Chelsa
10-05-2011, 09:46 PM
Here is another idea. Learn the game mechanics and how to zerg!

My TR group, 6 players, 3 who have completionist, takes 2 to 2 and half weeks to complete a double TR. We speed run every quests, on all difficulties, with any group make up. Every few weeks we mess up and bite off more then we can chew and wipe.

That being said, there are a few quests that could use a little tweaking. On the other hand, we have everything memorized so, we don't care.

MRH
10-05-2011, 09:55 PM
My woman and I when we play together, we actaully cause red alerts on purpose in some quests, she loves red alerts lol. Makes it that much more fun !

The intention of DA is solid and shouldn't be removed.

Fix the bats and other instances as ppl have mentioned then it will be all good.

dkyle
10-06-2011, 10:55 AM
Two points on that:

1 - If I recall correctly, from what I've read, DA was not present when DDO was launched, it was something added later. If it is an addition, then could not be exactly something core to the game mechanics.

"Core" is a meaningless notion in DDO. It's part of the game rules, now.


2 - The fact that something is a "well-known part of the game mechanics" does not mean that is a good part, a desirable one, a fun one or even a well thought one.

Yes, and I don't think it's a great mechanic, but I'm disputing the analogy to DMs that arbitrarily change the rules on a party when they do something he doesn't like. This is more like the DM saying, I didn't like how the rules played out last session, and I don't think the rules adequately represent the world I want to run, so I'm changing them a bit. In principle, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Whether the added rules are a good idea or not is a different issue.


No he's not, but, and correct me if I'm wrong... the enemy gets one attack, right? Then you're running and the enemy might chase you, if he wants. The DM is not giving him some magical power that renders you almost helpless, slowing your movements like if you were in a bad dramatic scene from a movie. Also, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 3.5, you can prevent that from happening via moves (getting away from combat at 2x movement rate not causing attack of opportunity) or making harder to hit you via feats (Mobility giving you +4 AC when crossing menaced areas). Comparing an attack of opportunity, which is quite fine, with the DA system is a bit demagogue.

OAs can be used to trip, and while there are means to avoid OAs in some situations, they are limited. The withdraw action, for example, only applies to the first square of movement. You can't use it to charge past a crowd of enemies unscathed, as is quite easy to do in DDO.

And again, my point was not that OA and DA are equally good and well designed game mechanics, but that they both are game mechanics. Applying game mechanics to penalize certain actions is part of how games work, not some fundamental failure of DMing.


Again, is not fixing the whole game. If DA system is an addition, then could be removed.

Any and all game mechanics could be removed, whether they're "additions" or not. I think having it is better than not having it, but I would like to see it improved.

And "the whole game" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your suggestions are far more complicated and far-reaching than fixing DA. Ideally, yes, it would be great if AI were better. But AI is very difficult.

Vordax
10-06-2011, 12:09 PM
And "the whole game" is a bit of an exaggeration, but your suggestions are far more complicated and far-reaching than fixing DA. Ideally, yes, it would be great if AI were better. But AI is very difficult.

AI is even more difficult when you have to keep it within a small CPU budget too.

Vordax

Antheal
10-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Yeah, what we really need is some kind of warning system so we know when we're getting close to red alert... Then we could start killing the mobs BEFORE they get super-tough and harder to hit...

Maybe they could implement a green alert as a warning, then maybe yellow and orange after that to really let you know that things are getting worse...

That would be awesome!

Yes, that would be nice.

Perhaps you should suggest your idea to the people who design dungeons such as The Coalescense Chamber?

GentlemanAndAScholar
10-24-2011, 09:38 AM
Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

Chai
10-24-2011, 03:32 PM
Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

Aside from the fact that arbitrary game mechanic is arbitrary, this right here is the single biggest fail of DA.

IMO theres a HUGE issue when they create a game mechanic that arbitrarily hampers the performance of players in the zone due to no other reason other than "because we said so" and then design quests that that spawn quantities of mobs which surpass the thresholds of that mechanic.

redspecter23
10-24-2011, 04:14 PM
The other big offender I'm seeing right now is elite Schemes of the Enemy's final room. I'm fine with DA in most quests as it won't do much to me unless I'm aggroing things excessively. That's my fault 98% of the time. In Schemes, much like MA, it's one room and the devs have decided how many mobs will be in there, not me. I have no control over it other than KILL MOAR FASTER. At least in my mind, that shouldn't be what DA is for. If the devs are producing enough mobs to red alert a single room in a matter of seconds at times, that's not my fault, that's either a design error (I hope) or they have intentionally designed that room to use the DA against the players (I severely hope that's not what they're doing). DA should always be something I have full control over. If I go slowly I should not be effected, if I zerg at a good pace and use abilities like invis and/or sneak and kill when I need to, I should not be effected. When I'm killing at a reasonably good rate, I should not be faced with increasing DA levels because of respawns. I'm not against the spawns, I'm against DA as a difficulty feature used against players on purpose.

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 04:26 PM
Rezzing this thread. The reason is that DA is breaking quests/raids mechanics. The latest I noticed red skulls caused a lot of pain is Master Artificer (last room). There is ZERO reason. Zero. To have Dungeon Alert active in this raid. Whoever designed this raid had ~50 mobs spawn all at once. Which is fine. Why in the world is Dungeon Alert going off stunning healer, melee, casters and all causing unnecessary deaths and resource usage? Seriously Devs, I think it's time to take a hard look at Dungeon Alert. I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely (tho it's a possibility), but I'd like it to be out of my way and unintrusive SPECIALLY when it relates to quest design encounters.

They should remove it from the last room in Master Artificer, yes.

They are much more likely to fix that one room (good specific complaint there), than completely remove or revamp Dungeon Alert.

So keep the complaints specific... And you might see some action.

I'd probably start a new thread though... This thread is already about DA in general which will likely get you nowhere.

Thrudh
10-24-2011, 04:28 PM
The other big offender I'm seeing right now is elite Schemes of the Enemy's final room. I'm fine with DA in most quests as it won't do much to me unless I'm aggroing things excessively. That's my fault 98% of the time. In Schemes, much like MA, it's one room and the devs have decided how many mobs will be in there, not me. I have no control over it other than KILL MOAR FASTER. At least in my mind, that shouldn't be what DA is for. If the devs are producing enough mobs to red alert a single room in a matter of seconds at times, that's not my fault, that's either a design error (I hope) or they have intentionally designed that room to use the DA against the players (I severely hope that's not what they're doing). DA should always be something I have full control over. If I go slowly I should not be effected, if I zerg at a good pace and use abilities like invis and/or sneak and kill when I need to, I should not be effected. When I'm killing at a reasonably good rate, I should not be faced with increasing DA levels because of respawns. I'm not against the spawns, I'm against DA as a difficulty feature used against players on purpose.

I agree with this 100%

Yokido
10-24-2011, 11:16 PM
We all concede that the DA system reduces server-wide lag,
unfortunately there are a few key gaps that I'd like to address,
and promptly give a suggestion towards the fixing of.

DA increases the amount of AC, saves, and movement speed
an enemy has. This has no effect on direct damage spells,
or (in most cases) THF melee users, they can still be negged
and they can still be lurked around with invisibility/sneak.

DA gives the creatures the ability to debuff players with the
harried effect, which is a severe reduction of movement speed,
and can be stacked several times(which is usually a death sentence).
This has lessened effect on AC/DR tanks, casters, monks-favored souls-
air savants, as compared to other classes.. I've played for a year and a half,
and I know full-well that there is a level of benefit to the above mentioned
classes or specializations when facing harried. It can be bypassed,
this isn't the intent of the harried effect.

My suggestion to fix this is a 'swarm' effect to replace the
harried effect, along with increased damage absorption on
monsters (all forms)that multiplies per DA stage, creatures
also should get the see invisibility buff during yellow alert
or higher along with spot increases. If they're alerted how
can you hide?

Swarmed effect, you are knocked prone, enemies have you flanked
on all sides. Blocking has no effect, all enemies have flanking
bonuses against you, you lose an amount of fortification depending
on what stage of DA it is whilst swarmed.
You cannot be swarmed without orange alert or higher.

To be swarmed, monsters must fill a certain amount of space
within X proximity of you. The higher the dungeon alert,
the wider your proximity becomes, and the less space is needed
to be filled within that proximity. This gives larger monsters
more opportunity to swarm a player, such as bosses or
giants. Once the effect comes off, there is a brief lee-way
period where you are immune to the effect.

The benefits of being swarmed rather than harried;
1:The stress involved with trying to act during the harried effect
is removed, no more frantic button mashing or aggravated play.
Instead it will be aggravated watching, which is less of a grievance.
2:Players can no longer use 'wing' effects to escape danger once
they are swarmed, as they could have when harried.
They also cannot escape by pulling certain levers, or going into
safe zones, or killing the last boss of the quest/raid to complete it.
This prevents a few methods of avoiding the harried effect and
the player still slowing the server.
3:Casters, and tanks are no longer
able to avoid the consequences of the DA debuff.
A caster jumping upwards(which would only
reduce the radius slightly, since it would have to be a 3d
sphere of sorts in terms of range) to avoid monsters during their swing animations
cannot stay in the air forever, thus getting swarmed whether there is
an attack hitting them or not. As with ac tanks, them being effected
no longer relies on them being hit or swung at. Tanks can no longer
hunker down to avoid damage, they cannot block and are left
prone to flanking attacks from all sides.
4:Fortification is now lowered during the debuff effect,
which allows for creatures that would be much too weak to harm
a character with a high passive dr to do so.
5:Players will now be fully surrounded by the time the debuff
effect comes off of them, their only option(if they survive)
is to clear away the creatures as best they can during this period.

Voila, swarm is much better than harried at being a deterrent
against people who have no regards for killing creatures they agro.

Now Devs, get to work.

adamotr1
10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
/signed