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Symar-FangofLloth
10-02-2011, 10:41 PM
In my opinion, given the state of the game, the following PrEs should get a priority boost for completion.


Cleric:
Radiant Servant 3 (to round out healing)
Exorcist or the Silver Flame 1 and 2 (so clerics don't feel left out, this is also the melee class they all want when they clamor for Warpriest, which is really a buffer)

Favored Soul:
Beacon of Hope 1, 2, and 3 (for healing in new endgame content)
Divine Avenger 1 (only because it is so close to completion already)

Artificer: (because it sucks only having one option on a new class)
Battle Engineer 2
Renegade Mastermaker 1 and 2 (assuming this is an option, the old PrE thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1972815) hasn't been updated, and the only other PrE I can think of could be Cannith Wand Adept)


I'd add more, but that's quite a bit already...
And this thread will probably get lost, posted late on a Sunday.

Angelus_dead
10-02-2011, 10:54 PM
The highest priority prestige specialty to do next is Knight of the Chalice!

Grenada
10-02-2011, 10:59 PM
I don't really care what PrE they decide to tackle, as long as they start firing one out every update (and not an incomplete one, because it won't get done for ages if they don't do it right away)

Edit: maybe I'm sounding pushy, but I wanna see some more options to classes.

GoMeansGreen
10-02-2011, 11:06 PM
but no, i don't want to be a buffer, as a cleric... happy to buff myself, but waste of time/mana buffing others, when they should have figured out how to buff themselves, reliably

mass buffs are ok, if not used too much

clerics want to be able to cast and combat, like sorcs or wizzes (or fvs?) not cast OR combat... or at least not be excoriated for wanting to combat, so, here's hoping your ideas stimulate creativity

Angelus_dead
10-02-2011, 11:16 PM
clerics want to be able to cast and combat, like sorcs or wizzes (or fvs?) not cast OR combat... or at least not be excoriated for wanting to combat, so, here's hoping your ideas stimulate creativity
That's a very important point.

I'm also desirous of Warpriest and Divine Avenger specialties to support melee Clerics and Favored Souls, but I want them done right. All healer classes are in the situation right now where if the battle is difficult, then it's probably a mistake for you to try doing any melee: you should focus totally on healing, with maybe an offensive spell here and there for variety. To try mixing melee and healing within a battle makes you bad at both.

Basically, the only time it's a good idea for healers to use melee on a big boss is when they're overpowered for the encounter, or they're trying a special stunt. Before releasing the melee specialties for Cleric and FVS, the devs should look for ways to address that conflict so that melee healers make sense in tough fights. (They already make sense in non-tough fights, and in fact are somewhat overpowered there)

PS. Yeah, "tough fight" is a multiaxis trait...

JDCrowell
10-02-2011, 11:36 PM
That's a very important point.

I'm also desirous of Warpriest and Divine Avenger specialties to support melee Clerics and Favored Souls, but I want them done right. All healer classes are in the situation right now where if the battle is difficult, then it's probably a mistake for you to try doing any melee: you should focus totally on healing, with maybe an offensive spell here and there for variety. To try mixing melee and healing within a battle makes you bad at both.

Basically, the only time it's a good idea for healers to use melee on a big boss is when they're overpowered for the encounter, or they're trying a special stunt. Before releasing the melee specialties for Cleric and FVS, the devs should look for ways to address that conflict so that melee healers make sense in tough fights. (They already make sense in non-tough fights, and in fact are somewhat overpowered there)

PS. Yeah, "tough fight" is a multiaxis trait...

Erm..My FvS handles things just fine in "tough" fights. Sometimes, better than the main dps in any given party I'm in. Obviously not "optimal" in boss fights, but I can still tank in all normal and some hard raids.

Here again, not always the best option, but I can do it.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2011, 12:07 AM
Erm..My FvS handles things just fine in "tough" fights. Sometimes, better than the main dps in any given party I'm in.
If your FVS is better at DPS than your DPS-class teammates, then you are overpowered relative to them. As stipulated above, I was not referring to situations where you're overpowered.

Part of the trick of designing the melee-healer specialty features is that a melee healer is already overpowered in some kinds of situations, and those characters don't need more help at places they're already great at.


t I can still tank in all normal and some hard raids
If the group is high-level or well geared and has above a certain low threshold of knowledge, then Normal mode raids are not tough fights. A tough fight would be one with a meaningful risk that you'll either all get killed, or be forced to consume excessive potions to finish.

Elaril
10-03-2011, 12:09 AM
Erm..My FvS handles things just fine in "tough" fights. Sometimes, better than the main dps in any given party I'm in. Obviously not "optimal" in boss fights, but I can still tank in all normal and some hard raids.

Here again, not always the best option, but I can do it.

I'm sure you do a good job meleeing in normal and hard raids, but I'm fairly confident that normal and hard raids don't contain the tough fights she was referencing.

JDCrowell
10-03-2011, 12:43 AM
I'm sure you do a good job meleeing in normal and hard raids, but I'm fairly confident that normal and hard raids don't contain the tough fights she was referencing.

I do a good job meleeing in Elite and Epic too....I'm just in no way suited to tank or counted on for high output DPS in that situation. But fill a DPS slot...absolutely.

But I do see the point here. Just don't lump FvS builds and say they are all healers and "some" melee capability. All builds are different

R0cksteady
10-03-2011, 08:45 AM
FvS are already ridiculously overpowered, they don't need any work right now.

But I agree with Radiant Servant 3 to make healing easier so some healers actually want to run raids again.

Besides that, I'd say Bard prestiges and Ranger prestiges need some work, both classes are far behind the rest.

Dolphious
10-03-2011, 10:26 AM
Bards, Clerics and Artificers are the three classes without a single t3 PrE and should get priority.

Thebeest
10-03-2011, 10:34 AM
Bards, Clerics and Artificers are the three classes without a single t3 PrE and should get priority.

and FVS

nivarch
10-03-2011, 10:47 AM
If I had to rank it would be in this order :


Bard ... With the spell pass they became quite subpar. They need a boost.
Paladin ... Because end game is no longer devils. Also tanking is supposed to become important but they just can't seem to fit all the needed feats.
Cleric and FvS ... Because raids lie on their shoulders more than ever
Artificer ... Because they only got 1 tier of 1 PrE. Yet they are new enough to still see a lot of attention without it, that's why they are last

Dolphious
10-03-2011, 10:51 AM
and FVS

Yeah, with all the uber FvS out there it's easy to forget that they are in fact only working with a t2 PrE. So favored souls also, though they're not a class that in general needs a lot of love.

Edit:

If I had to rank it would be in this order :


Paladin ... Because end game is no longer devils. Also tanking is supposed to become important but they just can't seem to fit all the needed feats.

Yah, who thought that "really good at killing one sub-type of monsters" was a good basis for a PrE? Given how much they're apparently filtering PrEs before release I don't see how that brain dead idea made it to live.

dejafu
10-03-2011, 10:54 AM
Basically, the only time it's a good idea for healers to use melee on a big boss is when they're overpowered for the encounter, or they're trying a special stunt. Before releasing the melee specialties for Cleric and FVS, the devs should look for ways to address that conflict so that melee healers make sense in tough fights. (They already make sense in non-tough fights, and in fact are somewhat overpowered there)


4th edition had an interesting solution to this problem in tabletop by tying many healing abilities with landing successful melee attacks - you hit the enemy, they take damage AND your teammates get healed. The attacks didn't usually do as much damage as a pure offensive combatant, but it's immensely satisfying to feel like you're contributing to damage while still keeping your teammates going.

Maybe Warpriest and Divine Avenger could have something similar, maybe an attack stance where every time you successfully hit an enemy you heal surrounding allies a small but consistent amount, maybe something like the Radiant Servant's aura (giving it the potential to heal a lot more than that aura in the middle of something like a raid boss fight, but this would be balanced by not being able to heal outside of a combat situation).

Bodic
10-03-2011, 11:18 AM
Its simple finish what has been started quit meddling with the finished ones(except to fix bugs)


So in full order per amont of PrE available only: A completed tier is 1 point 9 being all 3 PrE trees
Artificer (1)
Favoured Soul(2)
Cleric(2)
Barbarian(3)
Sorcerer(3)
Monk(5)
Bard(6)
Fighter(6)
Wizard(6)
Ranger(7)
Rogue(7)
Paladin(9)

Angelus_dead
10-03-2011, 11:28 AM
Maybe Warpriest and Divine Avenger could have something similar, maybe an attack stance where every time you successfully hit an enemy you heal surrounding allies a small but consistent amount
Or maybe they could have a toggle mode where your spellcasting animation includes melee attack swings at the same time... or is that too goofy?

Another big important obstacle facing the melee healer specialties (which actually includes the existing Warchanter and Battle Engineer ones) is the way that equipping a scroll reduces melee DPS to almost nothing, but leaves spellcasting DPS at nearly 100%.


Its simple finish what has been started quit meddling with the finished ones(except to fix bugs)
That's oversimplified reasoning, as it pretends that every available prestige tier is of equal quality.

The truth is the reason that Paladin has 3*3 = 9 tiers available is because 5 or 6 of those tiers are positively wimpy. The Paladin class is in dire need of improvement, such as turning KOTC and HOTD into decent options, and allowing DOS to function on a pure class. Conversely FVS only has 2 tiers, but the class is so strong that they have low priority for anything more.

Dolphious
10-03-2011, 11:58 AM
That's oversimplified reasoning, as it pretends that every available prestige tier is of equal quality.

The truth is the reason that Paladin has 3*3 = 9 tiers available is because 5 or 6 of those tiers are positively wimpy. The Paladin class is in dire need of improvement, such as turning KOTC and HOTD into decent options, and allowing DOS to function on a pure class. Conversely FVS only has 2 tiers, but the class is so strong that they have low priority for anything more.

Yeah, the "don't tweak, just add" mantra you see a lot on these forums isn't the answer. Tweaking unused existing content to be worthwhile adds as much as something new and does so without increasing clutter. We need both tweaks to existing PrEs and lots of new stuff, but if anything the tweaks are a higher priority because crappy content actively detracts from the game unlike unreleased content.

I understand why people are skeptical of tweaking in DDO at this point because some recent tweaking has been a disaster (*cough* spell pass *cough*), but it's an important part of keeping the game in a workable, organized, and balanced state.

Emizand
10-03-2011, 12:07 PM
Ranger(5)


Fixed!

Angelus_dead
10-03-2011, 12:41 PM
Exorcist or the Silver Flame 1 and 2 (so clerics don't feel left out, this is also the melee class they all want when they clamor for Warpriest, which is really a buffer)
That's an interesting question: Will the melee Cleric specialty be Warpriest or Exorcist of the Silver Flame? I think Warpriest, but you're right that the D&D 3.5 Warpriest's features are focused on mass benefits for his group, while the Exorcist has several powers to improve his personal weapon.

But the thing is: the D&D 3.5 Warpriest is a terribly designed prestige class. Really terrible. The costs are huge, and the bonuses are small. So there seems a good chance that the DDO version will only use the name and a few features from the D&D class, and fill in other stuff to make it good at personal melee.

About Warpriest: The requirements are costly, and include -5 caster levels and low Will. The benefits are martial proficiency, BAB, mass buffs of +8 on some Will saves and approximately +20 max hp, and several SLAs: Haste 3x, Fear 1x, MCLW 1x, Mass Heal 1x, Hero Feast 1x, and Remove Fear.

About Exorcist: The entry requirements are low, but there is a loss of 3 or 4 caster levels (nearly as bad as Warpriest). The benefits are Smite Evil, BAB, CC on Evil Outsiders, +saves on rare mental attacks, Banish +DC +pen, the effects of Holy Aura on you, 1+2d6 weapon damage, and DR bypass of Good Law Silver.
So looking at those lists of powers, the DDO devs could break it down as Radiant = healer, Warpriest = buffer, and Exorcist = melee. That'd be a pretty straightforward adaptation, although they'd have to greatly strengthen the Warpriest and Exorcist benefits to be decent. But using that approach would cause one giant problem: there would be no Cleric specialty for offensive casting.

Obviously offensive casting is a fairly popular activity for many Clerics, so it'd make sense for a specialty to support it. But which one? It's not Radiant, since we know what that's like already. And it would be weird if Warpriest does it, because a D&D Warpriest is so bad at offensive casting.

So Exorcist is left to take that role, and it somewhat makes sense: we can picture Exorcist getting +3 DC / Spell Pen and +20% amp against creatures of extraplanar origin and servants of hostile religions. It could keep moderate levels of melee benefits, and also some melee casting synergy (such as adding Shattermantle to anything you wield). In addition, having Warpriest be mainly group buffs would hit another problem: between Bards, Artificers, Paladins, PDK, and Henshin, there isn't a much space left for Clerics to take on a meaningful expanded buffing role.

So some melee benefits are moved to Warpriest, and we get the layout: Radiant = healer, Exorcist = offensive caster + minor melee, Warpriest = melee + minor group buffs.

Bodic
10-03-2011, 12:49 PM
Fixed!

Deep Wood Sniper is the only incomplete so and only has 1 Tier so I am correct at 7
unless you feel that AA need more tiers and less Arrows/proc effects and tie them into the tiered system

R0cksteady
10-03-2011, 01:14 PM
Deep Wood Sniper is the only incomplete so and only has 1 Tier so I am correct at 7
unless you feel that AA need more tiers and less Arrows/proc effects and tie them into the tiered system

AA is still tier 1, even if it's balanced the way it is IMO.

Dolphious
10-03-2011, 01:18 PM
Deep Wood Sniper is the only incomplete so and only has 1 Tier so I am correct at 7
unless you feel that AA need more tiers and less Arrows/proc effects and tie them into the tiered system

AA only has one tier. Yes, counting tiers is a ridiculously silly way to determine which classes need PrE love, but since its one redeeming value is objectivity you ought to at least hold on to that.

Rakian_Knight
10-03-2011, 01:25 PM
Just my thoughts, but what about the racial PrE's like Dwarven Defender and Dragonmark Heirs?

I agree that PrE's need to be addressed because they add so much and change the game at the same time. Personally, I think that clerics need to be pushed to the front of this line because right now, they don't really have a choice in the matter. Either go Radiant Servant or go home, and this is really sad because I know personally, I find empower healing as a waste of a feat that I could of used for Maximize or Empower.

For reference, these are the pnp versions of the two Prestige Classes that they want to add to clerics.


Class Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Diplomacy 8 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting.
Spells: Must be able to cast a spell from one of the following domain list: Destruction, Protection, Strength, or War. A cleric who can cast one of these from a domain qualify for this class.
Special: Must be able to turn/rebuke undead

Level.......Base Attack Bonus.....Fort.....Ref.....Will.....Caster Level........Abillities
1st.................+1....................+2...... +0......+0..............................Bonus Domain, Rally, Turn or Rebuke Undead
2nd................+2.....................+3...... +0......+0......+1 Divine...........Inflame +2
3rd.................+3....................+3...... +1......+1..............................Mass Cure Light Wounds
4th.................+4....................+4...... +1......+1......+1 Divine...........Inflame +4
5th.................+5....................+4...... +1......+1..............................Fear Aura
6th.................+6....................+5...... +2......+2......+1 Divine............Hero's Feast, Inflame +6
7th.................+7....................+5...... +2......+2..............................Haste
8th.................+8....................+6...... +2......+2......+1 Divine............-----
9th.................+9....................+6...... +3......+3..............................Mass Heal
10th...............+10...................+7......+ 3......+3......+1 Divine............Implacable Foe, Inflame +8

Weapon/Armor Prof.: All Simple/Martial Weapons, Light, Medium, Heavy Armor, and shields (including tower shield)
Bonus Domain: Gain access to a bonus domain of Glory or Domination.
Rally: As long as they aren't feared, they can use this ability as a standard action to give allies within 60ft. another save against fear effects with a +1 moral bonus.
Inflame: As a full round action a Warpriest can use his words to inspire allies within 60 feet. They get a +2 moral bonus on saves against any charm or fear effects. This bonus increases by two every even number level (on the chart they skip 8th so not sure if that was a typo that never got fixed or what.) The warpriest also gains the bonus.
Mass Cure Light Wounds: Can use Mass Cure Light Wounds like the spell as a spell-like ability once per day with a caster level equal to the divine caster level.
Fear Aura: Once per day can create an aura of fear radiating from the Warpriest for 1 round for each Warpriest level. Creatures entering the aura need to make a Will save (DC 10 + Warpriest Class Level + Cha Mod.) or act as if under the effect of the fear spell.
Hero's Feast: Once per day can use Hero's feast as a spell-like ability.
Haste: Three times per day can use Haste as a spell-like ability.
Mass Heal: Once per day can use Mass Heal as a spell-like ability.
Implacable Foe: Allies within 100 foot radius don't die until they reach -20 hp. If the cleric turns undead this works on living allies, if they rebuke it works on undead allies.


Class requirements:
Alignment: Any good.
Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 3 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
Special: Worshiper of the Silver Flame.

Level.......Base Attack Bonus.....Fort.....Ref.....Will.....Caster Level........Abillities
1st.................+1....................+2...... +0......+2..............................Flame of censure, weapon of the exorcist
2nd................+2.....................+3...... +0......+3......+1 Divine...........Weapon of silver
3rd.................+3....................+3...... +1......+3.......+1 Divine...........Darkvision 30 ft., resist possession, smite evil 1/day
4th.................+4....................+4...... +1......+4..............................Detect thoughts at will, weapon of good
5th.................+5....................+4...... +1......+4......+1 Divine............Silver exorcism
6th.................+6....................+5...... +2......+5......+1 Divine............Darkvision 60 ft., weapon of flame
7th.................+7....................+5...... +2......+5..............................Smite evil 2/day
8th.................+8....................+6...... +2......+6......+1 Divine............Weapon of law
9th.................+9....................+6...... +3......+6......+1 Divine............Weapon of sacred flame
10th...............+10...................+7......+ 3......+7..............................Warding flame

Weapon/Armor Prof.: None
Flame of censure: Basically Censure Demon granted by Knight of Chalice.
Weapon of the Exorcist: +1 Sacred bonus to attack and damage rolls with a "chosen weapon" also counts as magic aligned for bypassing DR.
Weapon of Silver: "Chosen Weapon" counts as silver for bypassing DR.
Darkvision 30ft.: Can in non-magical darkness up to 30 feet. This increases to 60 ft. at 6th level.
Resist Possession: Sacred Bonus against possession items/attempts.
Smite Evil Gain a smite evil ability like a paladin 1/day, gains another smite evil attempt at 7th level.
Detect thoughts: Can use Detect thoughts as the spell at will. DC is 10+ Prestige Class Level+Cha. mod.
Weapon of Good: "Chosen Weapon" Counts as good aligned for bypassing DR.
Silver Exorcism: At 5th level and higher, an exorcist of the Silver Flame gains a +2 bonus on Charisma checks to force possessing spirits out of the bodies they inhabit, as well as on all dispel checks and caster level checks to harm, banish, or overcome the spell resistance of evil outsiders. This includes dispel checks to dispel a summon monster spell when the summoned monster is an evil outsider. However, the bodies they inhabit take 1d6 points of sacred damage. (Basically the enhancement you get for faith in the Silver Flame.)
Weapon of Flame: "Chosen Weapon" deals and extra 1d6 fire damage.
Weapon of Law: "Chosen Weapon" counts as lawful for bypassing DR.
Weapon of Sacred Flame: "Chosen Weapon" deals and extra 1d6 sacred damage.
Warding Flame: At 10th level, an exorcist of the Silver Flame can bathe herself in silver flame as a free action. As long as the warding fl ame covers her, she gains a +2 sacred bonus to Armor Class and saving throws. In addition, she gains spell resistance 25 against evil spells and spells cast by evil creatures. Any evil creature that makes a successful melee attack against an exorcist of the Silver Flame while she is bathed in her warding fl ame must make a Fortitude save (DC 20 + exorcist’s Cha modifi er) or be blinded. The warding flame also provides bright illumination up to 30 feet from the exorcist and shadowy illumination up to 60 feet. It can be dismissed at any time.

These two choices kind of confuse me to be honest because what I would expect to see with cleric PrE's would be 1 healer focused, 1 caster focused, and 1 melee focused but it looks like we are going to get 1 healer focused and 2 melee focused unless they drastically change one of them from their pnp counterparts.

Angelus_dead
10-03-2011, 01:39 PM
These two choices kind of confuse me to be honest because what I would expect to see with cleric PrE's would be 1 healer focused, 1 caster focused, and 1 melee focused but it looks like we are going to get 1 healer focused and 2 melee focused unless they drastically change one of them from their pnp counterparts.
I wrote a long analysis of that situation above, and came to the conclusion that they probably will change Exorcist to be more like an offensive caster, giving them the breakdown that's expected.

Aashrym
10-03-2011, 01:42 PM
Yeah, the "don't tweak, just add" mantra you see a lot on these forums isn't the answer. Tweaking unused existing content to be worthwhile adds as much as something new and does so without increasing clutter. We need both tweaks to existing PrEs and lots of new stuff, but if anything the tweaks are a higher priority because crappy content actively detracts from the game unlike unreleased content.

I understand why people are skeptical of tweaking in DDO at this point because some recent tweaking has been a disaster (*cough* spell pass *cough*), but it's an important part of keeping the game in a workable, organized, and balanced state.

I don't agree that the spell pass was a disaster. As far as spells themselves go that was a step in a positive direction. Adding the level 5 DoT's was arguably a bite much but opening up damage and instant death was good for casters. I still think there is room for some tweaking on the spell pass but not that it was a disaster.

Aashrym
10-03-2011, 01:51 PM
AA only has one tier. Yes, counting tiers is a ridiculously silly way to determine which classes need PrE love, but since its one redeeming value is objectivity you ought to at least hold on to that.

The devs have described arcane archer and archmage as similar with the way they are designed. Those moved away from the tier I II III for smaller additional abilities at more level breaks. Arcane archers add abilities at levels 9, 12, 15, and 18. That's a bit iffy to list as 1 tier instead of 5. ;)

FranOhmsford
10-03-2011, 02:17 PM
PrE's needed in my opinion:

1. Deepwood Sniper 2 & 3
2. Radiant Servant 3
3. 2nd Cleric PrE - Thinking Exorcist after reading this thread.
4. Rogue Acrobat and Mechanic 3
5. another choice for Barbarian

KotC was up till the new Raids and buffs to DoS the out and out #1 PrE for Paladins.

In my view though it doesn't need buffing in itself HotD is still the weakest of the three - Mainly because Undead scale with lvl - So it doesn't matter how good you get your Turn Undead power at the highest lvl you're just not hurting them.

As such maybe instead of the pure HD effect we have now make HotD give an extra 1 undead turned min/tier

So if lvl 20 HotD hits TU on 7 CR 20 Undead with a roll of 39 he takes down 4 of them instead of 1

Numbers made up - If anyone can work out the top roll a lvl 20 HotD can reach please add {My Paladin is currently on his second life levelling back up.}.

Undead rarely turn up in small numbers and Bosses already have immunities.

Cyr
10-03-2011, 02:28 PM
PrE's in my order of priority (all should be completed in a single update though...the constant need to re-balance each update due to the one new tier of a single PrE is about as bad of a plan as you can have)...

1) Bard T3 PrE's
2) Rogue T3 PrE's
3) T1-3 of Barb PrE's missing
4) Racial PrE's
5) Cleric PrE's
6) FvS PrE's
7) Deepwood Sniper finished
8) Finish monk PrE's
9) Everything else missing except
10) Arti PrE's finished (last class in last priority to finish)

Symar-FangofLloth
10-03-2011, 04:04 PM
I didn't include Bards, because I feel that the issues with Bards are likely more deeply seated than a lack of T3 PrEs. Otherwise they'd be up there as well.

spunkrawker
10-03-2011, 04:18 PM
I know that priority should be to finish the existing PrEs, but I sure would love to see Red Dragon Disciple in DDO.
.
.
.

Dolphious
10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
I didn't include Bards, because I feel that the issues with Bards are likely more deeply seated than a lack of T3 PrEs. Otherwise they'd be up there as well.

Hey, I'd settle for just making spellsinger vigor work on WF, and spellsong trance work on undead. I wonder what sort of gimp casters they play on the beta server such that they didn't notice that spellsongs didn't work on warforged and pale masters in form?

At least we know why they've left bards in such a sorry state now, why would turbine want to do anything that to enhance or even bug-fix the class in direct competition to their new purchase-only Artificer class?

Calebro
10-03-2011, 04:38 PM
AA is still tier 1, even if it's balanced the way it is IMO.

Semantics.
The PrE is complete, and therefore is the comparable equivalent of a tier 3 from another class, resulting in 3 points on this scale. Same goes for Archmage getting 3 points instead of 5.

That said, I agree that not all PrEs are equal, so that scale is essentially meaningless.

Symar-FangofLloth
10-05-2011, 11:08 PM
After thinking about Warpriest vs Exorcist some more, I'd like to see Exorcist as the melee (since it's very Paladin-like) and I think Warpriest could be repurposed into a combination buffs and offensive caster. Because aside from full BAB and proficiencies (and reduced caster levels), Warpriest really has nothing melee. Yes, the reduced caster levels don't imply it as the offensive caster, but the only other option is a hybrid melee/buffer/healer, which is what you'd be anyway as a melee.
I suppose you could swap the names as well, and it'd have the same end result. Exorcist sounds more like a caster than Warpriest.

Rakian_Knight
10-05-2011, 11:38 PM
After thinking about Warpriest vs Exorcist some more, I'd like to see Exorcist as the melee (since it's very Paladin-like) and I think Warpriest could be repurposed into a combination buffs and offensive caster. Because aside from full BAB and proficiencies (and reduced caster levels), Warpriest really has nothing melee. Yes, the reduced caster levels don't imply it as the offensive caster, but the only other option is a hybrid melee/buffer/healer, which is what you'd be anyway as a melee.
I suppose you could swap the names as well, and it'd have the same end result. Exorcist sounds more like a caster than Warpriest.

Could have the logic of a caster of war mentality like a warmage.

Angelus_dead
10-06-2011, 12:24 AM
Could have the logic of a caster of war mentality like a warmage.
But does this guy look like he casts spells to hurt people? No, he breaks heads with a mallet.
http://images.wikia.com/nwn2/images/8/85/81361.jpg

The D&D 3.x Warpriest was supposed to be good at melee. The designers totally failed, because they assumed that BAB 1:1 and Martial weapons were enough to make that happen. (They also failed to make him a buffer, because they thought +8 against Fear was a great help)

Rakian_Knight
10-06-2011, 12:01 PM
But does this guy look like he casts spells to hurt people? No, he breaks heads with a mallet.
http://images.wikia.com/nwn2/images/8/85/81361.jpg

The D&D 3.x Warpriest was supposed to be good at melee. The designers totally failed, because they assumed that BAB 1:1 and Martial weapons were enough to make that happen. (They also failed to make him a buffer, because they thought +8 against Fear was a great help)

I know about the original class but I was talking if they change one class or the other.

Anyway, the 3.x Warpriest was a good character in a specific situation, on that battlefield with many NPC's the the traditional party of four to six people. Look up Heroes of Battle (I think its called don't have it with me at the moment) and you'll see that they created ways of having adventuring parties take place in large scale battles which made for some interesting but different campaign styles. However, in this reguard it doesn't make for a good character to have in a party and maybe decent to have in a raid.

Angelus_dead
10-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Anyway, the 3.x Warpriest was a good character in a specific situation, on that battlefield with many NPC's the the traditional party of four to six people.
It might have been intended that Warpriest was good for working with an NPC army, but it failed, because that was not a plausible situation. There are two possibilities: either the army is high-level and they don't need save buffs very much, or the army is low level and they are helpless to contribute against your enemies.

Warpriest: Fight and you may die. Run and you'll live; at least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!
Regular Cleric: Angelic hordes come forth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)!
Warpriest: Your ability to summon an army of celestial superbeings is starting to make my inspirational speeches feel a little bit redundant.

Note that in the D&D 4e rules they added the "minion" concept, enabling a large number of weaker characters to contribute meaningfully to a high-level fight. D&D 3e didn't have that, unless you count situations that fully-abstracted the whole battle: but that's pretty much the DM swapping away from the D&D combat rules entirely.