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Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 12:40 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.


People need to stop getting angry based on a principle they feel has been broken.

Be angry when something actually bad happens. Don't start raging because of bad precedents, or because you think it violates the rules of the game. Be pragmatic - only worry when you have to.

To be honest, I couldn't give a rat's ass about them selling raid loot. If they started selling things like the Amulet of the Azure Prophecy, or Treason, or the Helm of Frost, I couldn't care less. What matters is the power and rarity of the item - once they start putting up SoSs for sale, or +4 tomes, or the Torc. These things would be game breaking, and being able to buy them without grind would be bad.

I would also be opposed to being able to buy a Pale Lavender Ioun Stone. Is it raid loot? No, but it's rare and expensive and powerful - therefore, not something that should be sold in the store.

Short Version: Only start worrying when they start selling things that are actually game changing.

Added from another post, thought I put it better there.

EDIT: Please stop repping this post. While I appreciate the positive, and get whatever message you are trying to send me with the negative, this post is purely opinion and therefore deserving of neither.

Zachski
09-29-2011, 12:43 PM
Huh? There's more drama going on?

What's going on anymore? It's not even just this forum, it's like everyone on everybody on every forum I'm on is uptight and prone to aggression, myself included.

Ungood
09-29-2011, 12:46 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.


This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.


Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

All this.. Exactly!

Missing_Minds
09-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

yes it does set a precedent for selling actual raid loot because you can not pull it from any non raid chest.

Festivus doesn't count as the chances are so slim, and yet that also could have given you raid loot in the form of greensteel that isn't craftable.

Will it hurt achievements or what not? Not really.

Will it make a big difference in the gaming ability of people? No. As I stated in anther thread if +3 means that much, your character probably has bigger issues at hand.

Will it make people care less about raiding? yes.

Will it break what Turbine directly told us? yes. There was never an "at this time" clause as had been used in the past as such with heavy/medium armor and evasion.

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 12:54 PM
yes it does set a precedent for selling actual raid loot because you can not pull it from any non raid chest.

Festivus doesn't count as the chances are so slim, and yet that also could have given you raid loot in the form of greensteel that isn't craftable.

Will it hurt achievements or what not? Not really.

Will it make a big difference in the gaming ability of people? No. As I stated in anther thread if +3 means that much, your character probably has bigger issues at hand.

Will it make people care less about raiding? yes.

Will it break what Turbine directly told us? yes. There was never an "at this time" clause as had been used in the past as such with heavy/medium armor and evasion.

I don't know about you, but I'm not about to preemptively /ragequit about them adding the Sword of Shadows to the store. Until they actually DO add something game changing, I'm fine with it. I'm sure Turbine understands exactly how many people woule leave if they started selling actual named raid loot.

Also, keep in mind this was probably Marketing's decision, not the Devs themselves.

Gnorbert
09-29-2011, 12:57 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

[list] This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.


+2 tomes were "limited time only" at first as well...

TempestAlphaOmega
09-29-2011, 01:13 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

Agreed.

TempestAlphaOmega
09-29-2011, 01:16 PM
Also, keep in mind this was probably Marketing's decision, not the Devs themselves.

People often lump everyone at Turbine into one group where every decision is made by all of them in total agreement.

Missing_Minds
09-29-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't know about you, but I'm not about to preemptively /ragequit about them adding the Sword of Shadows to the store.

I'm not either. But what is also NEVER stated by anyone is that those complaining have been here for years. The game now is not what it was then. The shiny is gone, and the memories are getting trashed like Lucas has done with Star Wars.

I realize it is completely a financial decision, and from the business standpoint is a good one to make. From the player perspective, it is a slap in the face and more of a sign of the times.

I know I've been here a long time, and I know my time to head to the west is coming.

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 01:27 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

Pleae don't + or - rep to this post, it's just a matter of opinion.

mournbladereigns
09-29-2011, 01:33 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

To be honest, I don't really care if they DO sell raid loot. eSoS's and Torc's and what have you. It gives me an actual chance to waste massive amounts of money on a stupid game if I chose too. Now if you CAN ONLY get *UBER* items IN THE STORE. Then yeah, FU turbine /ragequit time. Stuff you can get by wasting you life playing the game. Meh. Do I feel more slighted by someone spending 5 years epicing out their toon, or $500. Meh, obviously they feel the game is worth wasting massive amounts of time/money on.

I for one look forward to the day that Turbine gets me to /ragequit, FOR EVAH. Then I won't have to listen to all the whining and nerdraging on the forums anymore. :)

Bodic
09-29-2011, 01:35 PM
People often lump everyone at Turbine into one group where every decision is made by all of them in total agreement.

Uhm they are HIS name is Fernado .

Samadhi
09-29-2011, 01:37 PM
I understand that this is hardly game-breaking. The fact that it is hardly game-breaking is the same reason I never farmed for +4 tomes the way I used to farm for +3's way back when.

However, it is still another example of Turbine throwing any attempt at an immersive game out the window in the interest of making more money. That I will never support.

TempestAlphaOmega
09-29-2011, 02:02 PM
Uhm they are HIS name is Fernado .

????

So you believe that every employee thinks the exact same way and always agree with each other on every course of action?

That would make Turbine the most unique company I have ever heard of (other than a company that is a sole individual).

dkyle
09-29-2011, 02:11 PM
People often lump everyone at Turbine into one group where every decision is made by all of them in total agreement.

I don't think anyone does this. I think we all know how companies work.

Perhaps it looks that way because the distinction is completely irrelevant. The overall decision making processes of a company produce decisions, and those decisions inform us of what the company is likely to do in the future. The game exists as the product of the company as a whole. We pay the company as a whole.

Unless we get a public firing of a specific misguided employee who thought this was a good idea, why does it matter to me who made the decision? Why should I care how Eladrin and MadFloyd feel about this decision? Even if they oppose it (and I certainly hope they did), obviously their thoughts on it weren't what mattered.


????

So you believe that every employee thinks the exact same way and always agree with each other on every course of action?

That would make Turbine the most unique company I have ever heard of (other than a company that is a sole individual).

Fernando is the head boss at Turbine. He must have at least consented to this. Unless he wasn't informed, in which case, I'd hope he'd be very angry at whoever made this extremely important decision without consulting him.

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:16 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.
In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.
+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.
More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.
The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

+3 is ACTUAL raid loot. And its upsetting to everyone else that what we worked hard to acquire is bought from the store. It brings a feeling of Pay-to-Win even closer.

You can already just about buy your way to a Tier 3 Greensteel item, why not a completely twinked lvl 20 toon.

Now we should be betting when we see a "Limited Time Offer" for +4 tomes.

Thrudh
09-29-2011, 02:19 PM
Do I feel more slighted by someone spending 5 years epicing out their toon, or $500. Meh, obviously they feel the game is worth wasting massive amounts of time/money on.

Heh, exactly... They're both crazy... However, the guy who drops $500 helps ME because Turbine has more money to develop with. The guy who plays 12 hours a day doesn't really help me as much.

Actually, I shouldn't make fun... I'm semi-crazy myself... I'll probaby drop $100 on these tomes... Turbine is wicked smart sometimes.

madmaxhunter
09-29-2011, 02:19 PM
I just had an epiphany! Okay, make these +3 tomes available in the store... Make the ones you actually earn work through TRs. You just made the store ones less wanted and the players happier with the REAL ones!

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:24 PM
I just had an epiphany! Okay, make these +3 tomes available in the store... Make the ones you actually earn work through TRs. You just made the store ones less wanted and the players happier with the REAL ones!

Bought are BTC, earned are BTA.

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 02:24 PM
I just had an epiphany! Okay, make these +3 tomes available in the store... Make the ones you actually earn work through TRs. You just made the store ones less wanted and the players happier with the REAL ones!

I like this idea, good compromise.

Found tomes: persist through TRs
Bought tomes: only last one life

oganos
09-29-2011, 02:25 PM
I just had an epiphany! Okay, make these +3 tomes available in the store... Make the ones you actually earn work through TRs. You just made the store ones less wanted and the players happier with the REAL ones!

That is too brilliant to ever work! +1 sir

Hokiewa
09-29-2011, 02:25 PM
Heh, exactly... They're both crazy... However, the guy who drops $500 helps ME because Turbine has more money to develop with. The guy who plays 12 hours a day doesn't really help me as much.

Actually, I shouldn't make fun... I'm semi-crazy myself... I'll probaby drop $100 on these tomes... Turbine is wicked smart sometimes.

Let's not make the assumption that just because Turbine makes crazy amounts of money, that money means increased development.

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 02:28 PM
Bought are BTC, earned are BTA.

How does this help? You get to choose what toon buys the tome anyway.

dkyle
09-29-2011, 02:29 PM
Bought are BTC, earned are BTA.

That's silly. Bought being BtC is not a significant drawback. You just buy it on the character you want to use it on. It would just be gotcha to anyone who didn't realize that it's BtC, like bags.


I like this idea, good compromise.

Found tomes: persist through TRs
Bought tomes: only last one life

Make that,

bound (Raid-loot) tomes: persist through TRs (simplest thing would be to not make them be consumables)
unbound tomes: do not persist, and are available in very high level quests/Raids as normal loot, at about the same droprate as +2s are in level 17 quests.

Then selling unbound-equivalent tomes (but BtA) in the store wouldn't be as big a deal. But the key is that unbound-tomes must be at a reasonable droprate, and Raid-loot tomes must continue to be special.

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:33 PM
That's silly. Bought being BtC is not a significant drawback. You just buy it on the character you want to use it on. It would just be gotcha to anyone who didn't realize that it's BtC, like bags.



Make that,

bound (Raid-loot) tomes: persist through TRs (simplest thing would be to not make them be consumables)
unbound tomes: do not persist, and are available in very high level quests/Raids as normal loot, at about the same droprate as +2s are in level 17 quests.

Then selling unbound-equivalent tomes (but BtA) in the store wouldn't be as big a deal. But the key is that unbound-tomes must be at a reasonable droprate, and Raid-loot tomes must continue to be special.

Only silly if you want to spend the TPs on the tomes.

dkyle
09-29-2011, 02:35 PM
Only silly if you want to spend the TPs on the tomes.

Huh? I don't understand what point you're making.

I thought you were suggesting a compromise wherein bought tomes would somehow be weaker than Raid tomes, thus avoiding actually selling Raid loot.

I was saying that your compromise wasn't one at all because BtC store bought tomes have no significant downside compared to BtA Raid tomes. BtC on a consumable store-bought item is completely irrelevant. It might as well be BtA.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-29-2011, 02:38 PM
+3 tomes "are" hard to get IMO.

But another +1 doesn't do me a whole lot of good. (however, it will mak eme re-evaluate how I build toons, so maybe I will find out that it does me more good than I originally thought.)

For example, I find +1 tomes mostly useless.

The major change I see is that the people who don't grind raids will now have access to them.

Narrowing the gap betwen the haves and the havenots.

Helping to beef up those HP numbers everyone complaints about.

Making gimps less gimpy, so that the "selective" LFMs will fill up a little faster.

Allowing more people to be accepted into more quests.....

in other words....a good thing IMO.


Not to worry...those who want to feel good about having something no one else has can still be proud of their +4 tomes. :p

Soleran
09-29-2011, 02:46 PM
+3 tomes "are" hard to get IMO.

But another +1 doesn't do me a whole lot of good. (however, it will mak eme re-evaluate how I build toons, so maybe I will find out that it does me more good than I originally thought.)



Plus 3 tomes are pretty awesome when you want to min/max. Start with 14 dex instead of 15 for twf, start with 13 con, put more points into strength etc etc.

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:47 PM
Huh? I don't understand what point you're making.

I thought you were suggesting a compromise wherein bought tomes would somehow be weaker than Raid tomes, thus avoiding actually selling Raid loot.

I was saying that your compromise wasn't one at all because BtC store bought tomes have no significant downside compared to BtA Raid tomes. BtC on a consumable store-bought item is completely irrelevant. It might as well be BtA.

The general assumption is that players will flock to buy +3 tomes. They can choose which toons to buy them on, thus bypassing the BTC idea I had. But the ones found in game which cost us 0 TP are no better and probably cost us more in electricity costs playing the game than it did with real money used in TPs.

It was a way to increase the value of the free tomes, rather than downgrade the store bought ones.

In reality thought you start with a silly idea, store bought +3 tomes, you only end up with a silly idea, a happy player base.

NytCrawlr
09-29-2011, 02:47 PM
You can already just about buy your way to a Tier 3 Greensteel item, why not a completely twinked lvl 20 toon.

Yeah, once again, people blowing things totally out of proportion...

You can barely get enough from the store to make a Tier I, let alone a Tier 3. Never mind the fact that you still have to farm the flagging quests to death to make your blanks since none of the rare items, nor the stones themselves, are sold in the store, as well.

But again, heaven forbid logic and reason be used on any forum atmosphere, let's instead raise our pitchforks and burn the place down with emotion and scare away those from the company that actually try their best to communicate with us.

It's an MMO, they are a company out to make money so development can continue on said MMO. Not exactly sure what some of you "old timers" want other than what it was before where you saw very little development.

It's called evolution, learn it.

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:49 PM
Yeah, once again, people blowing things totally out of proportion...

You can barely get enough from the store to make a Tier I, let alone a Tier 3. Never mind the fact that you still have to farm the flagging quests to death to make your blanks since none of the rare items, nor the stones themselves, are sold in the store, as well.

But again, heaven forbid logic and reason be used on any forum atmosphere, let's instead raise our pitchforks and burn the place down with emotion and scare away those from the company that actually try their best to communicate with us.

It's an MMO, they are a company out to make money so development can continue on said MMO. Not exactly sure what some of you "old timers" want other than what it was before where you saw very little development.

It's called evolution, learn it.

You can buy small and medium ingredients in store. The flagging quest components can even be found in the explorer area. And you are guaranteed a stone everytime you complete the quest. There is nothing hard in making a blank. You can even run the quests on casual to farm them.

smeggy1384
09-29-2011, 02:50 PM
, a happy player base.

Maybe that's aiming a little too high there...

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 02:53 PM
Maybe that's aiming a little too high there...

AHAHAHAHahahaha...

It's funny because it's true :(

NytCrawlr
09-29-2011, 02:54 PM
You can buy small and medium ingredients in store. The flagging quest components can even be found in the explorer area. And you are guaranteed a stone everytime you complete the quest. There is nothing hard in making a blank. You can even run the quests on casual to farm them.

Last time I looked, you can't buy pebbles or funk in the store, which is needed for most blanks, and while farming it on casual is doable, it is not a guarantee.

Also last I looked, you can buy SOME small and medium ingredients in the store, not all of them, and zero larges.

You still have to run the quests and the raid, the store if anything helps on some level, but by no means gets you to the end goal of a Tier III.

Krago
09-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Maybe that's aiming a little too high there...

Like was stated, you start with a silly idea, you end up with a silly idea.

We agree that putting +3 tomes in store is silly, so would thinking that it would make the playerbase happy is a silly idea.

dkyle
09-29-2011, 02:57 PM
You can buy small and medium ingredients in store. The flagging quest components can even be found in the explorer area. And you are guaranteed a stone everytime you complete the quest. There is nothing hard in making a blank. You can even run the quests on casual to farm them.

It's time-consuming to make a blank. Doing it as efficiently as possible is the interesting challenge there.

NytCrawlr
09-29-2011, 02:57 PM
It's time-consuming to make a blank. Doing it as efficiently as possible is the interesting challenge there.

Agreed. That's more or less what I was trying to get at.

dkyle
09-29-2011, 03:00 PM
The general assumption is that players will flock to buy +3 tomes. They can choose which toons to buy them on, thus bypassing the BTC idea I had. But the ones found in game which cost us 0 TP are no better and probably cost us more in electricity costs playing the game than it did with real money used in TPs.

That's a rather bizarre way to look at it.

To me, the problem is that Pay2Win undermines the point of the game: playing it. It's not about which method costs more; spending TP, or paying for electricity. I could pay for the tomes if I wanted to. That's besides the point.


It was a way to increase the value of the free tomes, rather than downgrade the store bought ones.

So basically your idea was to make us feel better by making Raid tomes better, in spite of selling (effectively) the same things in the store? I'm not interested in bribery. Pay2Win is the problem. It's not a compromise unless Pay2Win is mitigated.

Chai
09-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Figured this shouldn't go in the other threads, mostly because it would be quickly lost in the ocean of NerdRage.

Most of the NerdRage® is occurring because raid loot is being sold in the store.


This is one of the "Limited Time Only" deals. While it is likely to come back, unless it reappears every month then most of the time getting 20 completions in a quest will be more time effective.

+2 tomes started as "limited time only" as well. We saw how "limited" that was, heh.

Limited Time Only®***

***(unlimited)


In in-game bonuses, +1 to a stat is NOT game changing. It means at most +1 to-hit/damage, +20 hp, +1 ac, +29 sp, or +1 DC, and most of those are only if the +2 tome left you on an odd number. All of these are nice bonuses, the DC in particular, but it isn't game-breaking.

I agree its not game breaking.


+3 tomes aren't hard to get, it just takes a while.

Yeah but looking at that the other way, while the old guards had to run 60+ completions to get a specific tome they wanted, newbies can just buy it from the store. The length of time to acquire gave it meaning.


More money for Turbine is in the end a GOOD THING.

How far does this rabbit hole go? What else could we justify the same way?


The difference between them doing them selling tomes and not selling the tomes is minimal compared to selling, say, Torcs or an SoS.

We are creeping right up to that, and the complete lack of realization of this is hilarious. When I stated the same in the +2 tome thread a while back I was quoted and laughed at for suggesting that they would ever sell +3s in the store......oh wait. :p


Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.

Actual raid loot? You mean, like +3 tomes? This IS the precident, which is why all the nerdragers are saying its crossing a line major line, despite your well pointed out small benefits that come from it.

Basically one more point in the bank to qualify for any feat that requires a stat.

Krago
09-29-2011, 03:02 PM
Last time I looked, you can't buy pebbles or funk in the store, which is needed for most blanks, and while farming it on casual is doable, it is not a guarantee.

Also last I looked, you can buy SOME small and medium ingredients in the store, not all of them, and zero larges.

You still have to run the quests and the raid, the store if anything helps on some level, but by no means gets you to the end goal of a Tier III.

Guarantee no, but it sure does shorten the time it takes now doesnt it? Most shroud runs are after larges anyway, which probably is why they sell smalls and mediums in store, because most people who want several GS items are flush with them.

It creates a feeling of buying your way to a GS item, which cheapens the others who had to grind the stuff.

Krago
09-29-2011, 03:06 PM
That's a rather bizarre way to look at it.

To me, the problem is that Pay2Win undermines the point of the game: playing it. It's not about which method costs more; spending TP, or paying for electricity. I could pay for the tomes if I wanted to. That's besides the point.



So basically your idea was to make us feel better by making Raid tomes better, in spite of selling (effectively) the same things in the store? I'm not interested in bribery. Pay2Win is the problem. It's not a compromise unless Pay2Win is mitigated.

Look, Im with you. The idea should have never made it as far as it had, to announce the selling of +3 tomes. It cheapens the game, like you said.

We cannot change the fact that +3s are going to be sold via the store. They have to increase the value of the ones found in game to keep people interested in raiding is the compromise. I dont like the idea of keeping tomes through TRs but after this announcement, I may have to change my perspective.

dkyle
09-29-2011, 03:08 PM
Guarantee no, but it sure does shorten the time it takes now doesnt it? Most shroud runs are after larges anyway, which probably is why they sell smalls and mediums in store, because most people who want several GS items are flush with them.

It creates a feeling of buying your way to a GS item, which cheapens the others who had to grind the stuff.

Smalls and Mediums in the store? Seriously? They're beyond irrelevant. I don't care about them, and I hate pay2win. They're a non-issue. A noob trap for anyone foolish enough to buy them instead of asking any one of the vets in the Shroud run they're in for some, for free.

The blank, the Larges, and the Shards are the important parts of a GS. They are not sold in the store.



We cannot change the fact that +3s are going to be sold via the store.

Probably not, but the reaction to this is a little closer to the "Raid loot as Cannith Crafting ingredients" than to, say, "no Artificers for VIPs". Nothing is set in stone yet. Although, my trust in Turbine is already significantly damaged by them even thinking this would be OK long enough to post an announcement.


They have to increase the value of the ones found in game to keep people interested in raiding is the compromise. I dont like the idea of keeping tomes through TRs but after this announcement, I may have to change my perspective.

But the point is that selling them reduces raiding because they're selling Tomes that are just as good as the Raid ones. Your compromise does nothing to change that, so I don't want Turbine to think they can do it, and pretend they "listened" to us.

NytCrawlr
09-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Guarantee no, but it sure does shorten the time it takes now doesnt it?

Not if you have to run the quest multiple more times due to the fact that you are not running it on normal or above. Luck is an evil thing to fight most of the time.


Most shroud runs are after larges anyway, which probably is why they sell smalls and mediums in store, because most people who want several GS items are flush with them.

That's speaking for a small part of the population I think. I'm only on my 7th completion, still not flushed with anything, though I am closer thanks to some donations. (And no I don't farm it, I find it silly especially since the last two completions netted me LDS from the last chests, but that's another argument that has already been beaten to death as well).


It creates a feeling of buying your way to a GS item, which cheapens the others who had to grind the stuff.

I don't feel cheapen, can't speak for everyone. Sorry others do, but also maybe they should learn to just let some things go?

People that buy that sort of thing from the store, IMO, are the same people that used Game Genie and the like to help them beat their older video games. Doesn't hurt me a bit, in fact it just makes me feel that much better over my accomplishment of beating or getting to a goal without going down that road.

Shmuel
09-29-2011, 03:17 PM
sorry i cant agree. this is a bad thing. here's why i think so:

why have i not left this game and have no intention of doing so? because i am INVESTED in it. I feel like alll the time and effort i have put into it in 5 years has given me an advantage over those who have not. I think i should have one. I think people who are more invested than me should have an advantage over me. This gives me and others a reason to keep playing. The closer we get to being able to simply purchase whatever we want in the ddo store rather than having to earn in in game, the more this become like using a character planner than playing a game. Guess what- character planners are free.

By the way, in 5 years+ I have personally gotten 4, yes FOUR +3 tomes in total from raids. Its not like i dont raid much, I do. I also have gotten two +4 tomes.
a +3 or +4 int tome is about the only thing that could really improve my wizard at this point. If I can just buy it, why even bother playing at all?

MyHumps
09-29-2011, 03:22 PM
It would be nice if occasionally Turbine put something up to a vote instead of doing whatever the hell they wanted to.

stockwizard5
09-29-2011, 03:34 PM
So, They make the raids harder and then Store sell the only reason (for most runs) we run them? I suppose we could just get rid of the raids all together if they are causing such a problem :confused:

stockwizard5
09-29-2011, 03:39 PM
... By the way, in 5 years+ I have personally gotten 4, yes FOUR +3 tomes in total from raids. ...

I find it hard to believe you have played 5 years and not run 20 shrouds.

Jahmin
09-29-2011, 04:02 PM
There was never an "at this time" clause as had been used in the past as such with heavy/medium armor and evasion.

Incorrect - there was never any limitation with Evasion either.

gloopygloop
09-29-2011, 04:09 PM
The thing that really puzzles me is this:

Why is Turbine selling something in the DDO store that will end up causing people to run fewer raids?

Since raids are the principle Hamster Wheel for a whole bunch of players, why would Turbine do something that gets those players off the wheel? It just seems incredibly short sighted.

Has Turbine decided that DDO is near the end of its useful life, so now is the time to just squeeze out any quick profits that they can before shutting down? Because this + Artificer sales really do feel like that kind of thing.

Will we see the announcement for DDO2 next year?

Talon_Moonshadow
09-29-2011, 04:17 PM
I find it hard to believe you have played 5 years and not run 20 shrouds.

My 20th Shroud had all +2 tomes. :(

sirgog
09-29-2011, 06:14 PM
yes it does set a precedent for selling actual raid loot because you can not pull it from any non raid chest.
...
Will it break what Turbine directly told us? yes. There was never an "at this time" clause as had been used in the past as such with heavy/medium armor and evasion.

This.

I almost agree with the OP on one count - tomes have only a small impact on character power level. True except for one situation - casting stats on DC casters.

Still, if Turbine will break this promise - which promise goes next? Tomes are, after all, the *rarest* of all the raid loot. In ToD there's about 10 Shintao rings that drop for each +4 Strength tome.


And more importantly, if raid loot goes into the store in future, doesn't that give Turbine a really explicit incentive to artificially lower drop rates? If you can buy that Torc in the DDO store, wouldn't it make good business sense to lower the drop rate so you almost never otherwise see it drop?

Zachski
09-29-2011, 06:47 PM
I think there's a lot of slippery slope logic that "They're selling one piece of raid loot in the store, so they'll start selling all raid loot in the store"

...No, that's not logical at all.

For one thing, I'm actually surprised that they aren't selling +4 tomes in the DDO store. Because they sell +1 and +2 tomes.

For another, they have already set the precedent in increasing the power of the tomes they sell in the DDO store when they went from 1 to 2. They have not set the precedent for selling anything other than trash equipment in the DDO store.

So, quite frankly, I think the only other raid loot we'll ever see in DDO stores in the future is the +4 Tome. Beyond that, no, no more raid loot. That would not fit the pattern.

sirgog
09-29-2011, 07:12 PM
For another, they have already set the precedent in increasing the power of the tomes they sell in the DDO store when they went from 1 to 2. They have not set the precedent for selling anything other than trash equipment in the DDO store.

They already sell the following in the store:

+3 elemental burst weapons - not trash (although obviously just stuff you outlevel, I don't have a problem with this, just wanted to point out there's some non-trash in there)
The only craftable silver quarterstaves in the game
Almost the only Cold Iron craftable quarterstaves in the game (I believe you can also, very rarely, get these as Delara's end rewards, but Silver you cannot)

Quarterstaves are specific to very niche builds (Acrobat rogues only), which is why there's never been a stink over this on the forums. But if you have an acrobat, much of your endgame weaponry requires store purchases to craft.

Zachski
09-29-2011, 07:15 PM
And none of that is raid loot, so it's really not much to worry about.

Seriously, though, start worrying when they actually start putting non-tome raid loot in the store. Then it's time to panic.

Munkenmo
09-29-2011, 07:16 PM
They already sell the following in the store:

+3 elemental burst weapons - not trash (although obviously just stuff you outlevel, I don't have a problem with this, just wanted to point out there's some non-trash in there)
The only craftable silver quarterstaves in the game
Almost the only Cold Iron craftable quarterstaves in the game (I believe you can also, very rarely, get these as Delara's end rewards, but Silver you cannot)

Quarterstaves are specific to very niche builds (Acrobat rogues only), which is why there's never been a stink over this on the forums. But if you have an acrobat, much of your endgame weaponry requires store purchases to craft.

dunno figure between greensteel, and the epic staff of natgan silver quarterstaves are more or less covered.

seriously it's friday, go drink some xxxx (or is it 4x, been a while since my last trip over the ditch) watch some RWC and none of this will matter as much tomorrow

Ungood
09-29-2011, 08:26 PM
The thing that really puzzles me is this:

Why is Turbine selling something in the DDO store that will end up causing people to run fewer raids?

THIS is the start of a great question. But, the faulting is to assume that players will run fewer raids because this. Thus, the underlying question really is, "Will players run fewer raids because of this?"

That remains to be seen.

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 08:40 PM
THIS is the start of a great question. But, the faulting is to assume that players will run fewer raids because this. Thus, the underlying question really is, "Will players run fewer raids because of this?"

That remains to be seen.

I know I won't be giving up on raiding a toon just because you can buy tomes now. I will always prefer playing the game to paying RL money.

Edit: Seriously, people, stop repping the OP. Negative or Positive, that post is pure opinion and deserves neither.

gloopygloop
09-29-2011, 10:05 PM
THIS is the start of a great question. But, the faulting is to assume that players will run fewer raids because this. Thus, the underlying question really is, "Will players run fewer raids because of this?"

That remains to be seen.

Some people run raids for the joy of the raid.
Some people run raids for the raid-specific loot.
Some people run raids as a favor to their friends.
Some people run raids for a shot at a tome.

Anyone who is running the raid for that last reason will not run that raid if they have already bought a +3 tome. I suppose it is possible that some other people will somehow magically run the raid more often to replace the people who stop running that raid for the tomes, but I don't see how anyone can deny that some people will stop running at least some raids because their reason for running that raid has been taken away.

Will that be a significant number? Possibly. Possibly not. I don't know the answer to that. I do know that I won't be stepping into Beaver's Fate ever again on any of my existing characters unless a friend asks me to come into the quest because they are desperate for a healer. And I'll only be going in on new characters if I want a set of Madstone boots. I used to run it at least a couple of times a week. That's done now.

Missing_Minds
09-29-2011, 10:34 PM
Incorrect - there was never any limitation with Evasion either.

"we have no plans to change" is not the same as "we are not going to". Those are the exact phrasings. I am correct.

Khellendros13
09-29-2011, 11:03 PM
Let's see...does a +3 tome enable you to solo an epic or raid?

How about SP pots?

Xenostrata
09-29-2011, 11:43 PM
And more importantly, if raid loot goes into the store in future, doesn't that give Turbine a really explicit incentive to artificially lower drop rates? If you can buy that Torc in the DDO store, wouldn't it make good business sense to lower the drop rate so you almost never otherwise see it drop?

Hmm. This is the closest I've come to agreeing with you - if Turbine was truly devious, they could severely lower drop rates in order to sell items.
I do hope that in some way the people we trust (ie the devs, not marketing) have enough of a say in things to get that to not happen. Or they could simply lie and say it would be too complicated to recode.

Ungood
09-30-2011, 06:28 AM
Some people run raids for the joy of the raid.
Some people run raids for the raid-specific loot.
Some people run raids as a favor to their friends.
Some people run raids for a shot at a tome.

Anyone who is running the raid for that last reason will not run that raid if they have already bought a +3 tome.

Now, the last part of this, is purely an assumptions, so the The question at this point is: Why did you assume this?

We build assumptions off of what we know, and what we witness from similar or like events. So, we need to look at the game and the players, to see where the idea is built from. Thus, we ask other questions:

Did people suddenly stop caring about pulling a +2 tome in a quest simply because they are in the store?


I do know that I won't be stepping into Beaver's Fate ever again on any of my existing characters unless a friend asks me to come into the quest because they are desperate for a healer. And I'll only be going in on new characters if I want a set of Madstone boots. I used to run it at least a couple of times a week. That's done now.I am sure Turbine will appreciate the additional money you will spend on the game to acquire +3 tomes for your toons then.

In fact, that is not a bad thing either, as it stands, bug fixes, hot fixes, etc and so forth are paid for by the store. So, if you feel that tomes being in the store removes your incentive to farm for them, and you would rather buy them for TP, that too is profitable to the game and thus the player base as a whole benefits.


Hmm. This is the closest I've come to agreeing with you - if Turbine was truly devious, they could severely lower drop rates in order to sell items.
I do hope that in some way the people we trust (ie the devs, not marketing) have enough of a say in things to get that to not happen. Or they could simply lie and say it would be too complicated to recode.

Turbine has not done this any other item in the store (That I am aware of) Thus, their is no reason to believe they will do it with this item.

Ebuddy
09-30-2011, 06:59 AM
Heh, exactly... They're both crazy... However, the guy who drops $500 helps ME because Turbine has more money to develop with.

But this is clearly an attempt at enhancing thier revenue stream as you so accurately pointed, so that they develop more.

It does cause one to take pause however and wonder if the FTP "bubble" has deflated a little bit and that perhaps new, paying subscribers (to include those who buy TP) hasn't begun to wane.

Ungood
09-30-2011, 07:34 AM
But this is clearly an attempt at enhancing thier revenue stream as you so accurately pointed, so that they develop more.

It does cause one to take pause however and wonder if the FTP "bubble" has deflated a little bit and that perhaps new, paying subscribers (to include those who buy TP) hasn't begun to wane.

Actually, I would wager that the store is what pays for any and all the bug fixes, revisions, and hot fixes, and allows F2P content to be made in general. Like Cannith Crafting and Lordsmarch for example.

sirgog
09-30-2011, 07:37 AM
Hmm. This is the closest I've come to agreeing with you - if Turbine was truly devious, they could severely lower drop rates in order to sell items.
I do hope that in some way the people we trust (ie the devs, not marketing) have enough of a say in things to get that to not happen. Or they could simply lie and say it would be too complicated to recode.

The experience of LOTRO indicates that this is likely the future of DDO.

Massive grinds have been added to that game that are extremely boring, are central to character progression, and that the store shortcut exists for.

The new LOTRO expansion just added more of them, presumably worse (not personally checked, but I'm guessing 'kill 360 goblins' is now something like 'kill 450 Dunlending beasts', and the new 'do 40 quests in some level 50 area' is likely now 'do 60 quests in a level 67 one'). Some of these you do naturally while levelling, but most you won't.

+3 tomes aren't as central to character progression as LOTRO trait deeds are (you won't be ready for endgame instances if your traits are well under level 12), but the same company is sabotaging the game experience of one of their other games in similar ways. I hope I'm wrong but I fear this is the future.

gloopygloop
09-30-2011, 07:42 AM
Now, the last part of this, is purely an assumptions, so the The question at this point is: Why did you assume this?


If you are in the raid for reasons other than just to get a particular tome, then you might keep running that raid for those other reasons after getting that tome, but I'll just repeat what I said in case it was confusing to you:

If the only reason why a person was running a raid was to get a particular tome and then they get that tome, then they will stop running that raid. How is that an assumption?

You could say that it is an assumption that there are people who are only running some raids in order to get tomes, but I actually know that there are people who run specific raids on specific characters just for tomes - because I'm one of those people.

[/quote]We build assumptions off of what we know, and what we witness from similar or like events. So, we need to look at the game and the players, to see where the idea is built from. Thus, we ask other questions:

Did people suddenly stop caring about pulling a +2 tome in a quest simply because they are in the store?[/quote]

I sure as hell stopped caring about BtC +2 tomes on characters that already have a +2 tome in that stat.


I am sure Turbine will appreciate the additional money you will spend on the game to acquire +3 tomes for your toons then.

In fact, that is not a bad thing either, as it stands, bug fixes, hot fixes, etc and so forth are paid for by the store. So, if you feel that tomes being in the store removes your incentive to farm for them, and you would rather buy them for TP, that too is profitable to the game and thus the player base as a whole benefits.

You're confused about cause and effect again.

Turbine doesn't fix bugs and develop more content because they earned some money.
They fix bugs and develop content IN ORDER TO earn more money in the future.

Earning money from +3 tomes will mean more profit for Warner Brothers, but it will not translate into more bug fixes and more content.



Turbine has not done this any other item in the store (That I am aware of) Thus, their is no reason to believe they will do it with this item.

They already did that in U11. Raids are now longer and more resource-intensive (and fail more often) and the drop rates for the end chests did not increase, therefore, there is now more grind-per-loot than there was in U10. There are a few quests where the drop rate was increased (I'm looking at Weapons Shipment in particular), but in general, people are getting raid loot more slowly now than they were before U11.

Also, you talk about assumptions, but when you say that they have never decreased drop rates for items that they put in the store, you are making an assumption as well - and it's an assumption that none of us can reliably test because we don't get to see the back end on a regular basis.

gloopygloop
09-30-2011, 07:45 AM
Let's see...does a +3 tome enable you to solo an epic or raid?

How about SP pots?

FvS wings used to let people solo epics and raids. Now that those have been limited, I'm sure that we'll never see a character solo a raid or epic quest again.

Ungood
09-30-2011, 08:00 AM
I sure as hell stopped caring about BtC +2 tomes on characters that already have a +2 tome in that stat.

And after 20 shrouds, I passed on a +3 Str Tome (The only +3 in the list too) because I already had one from ravers fate runs, such a pity, that I had to not care about such a super rare near guaranteed item for only running 20 quests, and settle for yet another cleaning stone.

I suppose when someone already has a tome in that stat, getting a second one is obviously redundant. But, this has nothing at all to do with anything we have been discussing so far.


Also, you talk about assumptions, but when you say that they have never decreased drop rates for items that they put in the store, you are making an assumption as well - and it's an assumption that none of us can reliably test because we don't get to see the back end on a regular basis.I am trying to fathom what you hoped to accomplish by pointing out what I already said was an assumption was an actual assumption

Missing_Minds
09-30-2011, 08:03 AM
Let's see...does a +3 tome enable you to solo an epic or raid?
How about SP pots?

The SP is more "Pay to Win" PtW as the phrasing goes in my opinion.

But +3s.... Yeah, I can see only two cases.

1. spell DCs. It can raise a caster's DC by +1 or +2 depending. This can be enough if they are on that hairy edge.

2. TWF. Given the fact that Improved and Greater both require a dex of 17, one could start out with a stat of 14. That is really point cost savings for character generation. I half wonder if they'll bump GTWF to have the pnp requirement of Dex of 19 now.

dkyle
09-30-2011, 08:16 AM
The SP is more "Pay to Win" PtW as the phrasing goes in my opinion.

But +3s.... Yeah, I can see only two cases.

Pay 2 Win isn't just "Pay to complete quests". It's also "Pay to get the rewards from quests". Getting an item you want is a "win". Paying for it is paying for that win.

Frankly, to me, just completing a quest barely qualifies as a "win" unless it's one I haven't done before, or it's a genuinely difficult one, like Epic LoB. Most quests are easy to complete.

Beethoven
09-30-2011, 08:24 AM
Still, if Turbine will break this promise - which promise goes next? Tomes are, after all, the *rarest* of all the raid loot.

Sorry, can't bring myself to agree with you there. Tomes - in general - are not raid loot. +1 Tomes are not raid loot. +2 tomes are not raid loot. +4 tomes are not raid loot (they also drop out of chests in epic quests). +3 tomes currently only drop in raids. So, yes. Turbine is stretching it a little bit by putting +3 tomes in the store. However, insisting they are raid loot is stretching it as much since they are not specific to a particular raid, there is very little indication +3 tomes are not simply based on the (base) level of the chest and no promise made they won't eventually drop out of chests in level 20+ quests. Also, I doubt we would have similar outrage (from the same people) about broken promises if those tomes start showing in Amrath or Cannith quests on elite.

That said; I am myself not really sure if I like the idea of them being available in the store. Sure, on one hand it is nice for the more casual crowd to have a shot at them too. On the other hand, considering the rarity of those tomes, it does cheapen them. Currently people get excited about a useful tome dropping for them. I cannot imagine the same level of excitement still happening if you know everyone and their monkey can simply buy them from the store. I feel they cease being special.

The second negative impact I could see are specific raids. Right now I have a couple of toons I still run Shroud with even if I don't need GS ingredients simply for the chance of +3 tomes for my 20ths completions. It is even worse for Hound and VoD since loot from there is becoming out-dated and lots of people already have everything from there.

Then again, you'd have the same downsides if +3 tomes would start dropping out of non-raid chests and I would not complain if Amrath elite. Actually, if I'd be to guess, my prediction would be the sale of +3 tome is going to come back more or less regularly until eventually those tomes become a permanent addition in the store. Meanwhile they will also start dropping from high level/new end-game chests (just at a very low rate) and down the line +3 tomes will become the new +2 tomes.

ironmaiden-br
09-30-2011, 08:38 AM
The next step will probably be all raid gear for 100.000 turbine points....

I hate this store sells... The gears, tomes abilities must be earn in game...

Ok to sell **** for newbies like +2 tomes, crapy gear and ingredients...

But even resources must be earn in game....

MAke the game easy for rich noobs will not make the game better, will only make people play less cause half of the time we spend in game is griding raids to get good loot and tomes

The greed must have a limit even for turbine!

Selling +3 tomes is ridiculous.

FrancisP.Fancypants
09-30-2011, 08:59 AM
Chill out. So long as this doesn't set a precedent for selling ACTUAL raid loot, +3 tomes aren't that big of a deal. The biggest possible benefit I can think of is getting away with a 14 dex on a twf build.


Let me spell it out for you:
A +3 tome in and of itself is not a big deal, no. It's not an automatic stat jump, so you have to plan for it. It's nice, but it's more or less fluff.

The trouble is power creep. Go look up some builds. Most of them assume +2 tomes to the big stats (and try and find a 28pt build on the forums that's not a specific request, I dare you). Very few assume +3s though, because most people aren't going to count on pulling one unless they've got one sitting in the bank already.

Now consider that suddenly there's a way to guarantee yourself a +3 of your choice...
Do you think they won't sell a ton of those? And if they decide to make them a permanent store fixture, and the rare thing becomes ordinary, do you think they won't feel the need to have a special +4 tome sale? And maybe down the road they'll code +5s in the raid loot to shush all the rage.

Do you understand?

Missing_Minds
09-30-2011, 09:07 AM
Sorry, can't bring myself to agree with you there. Tomes - in general - are not raid loot. +1 Tomes are not raid loot. +2 tomes are not raid loot. +4 tomes are not raid loot (they also drop out of chests in epic quests). +3 tomes currently only drop in raids.

I've only ever heard of +4 out of ToD on elite. Got screen caps of this to prove +4s in standard chests? Epic Raid, epic chest doesn't count as that would also be the raid loot chest.

Kiel
09-30-2011, 09:15 AM
And does that effect you personally? nope

If you want to feel superior about yourself i highly suggest you get a education followed by a decent job, and pay your own bills.Turbine is afterall a business and things change deal with it.

And seriously drama queens if your gonna quit...just quit

Beethoven
09-30-2011, 10:03 AM
I've only ever heard of +4 out of ToD on elite. Got screen caps of this to prove +4s in standard chests? Epic Raid, epic chest doesn't count as that would also be the raid loot chest.

Yes. I was talking about the end-chest. Why would end chests from epic quests not count? Granted if you consider them raid chests (which I still feel would be a stretch since they are not actually located in a raid) then yeah, +4 would be raid loot.

There used to be a time +2 tomes were mostly raid loot only. Turbine added more end-game and they started dropping from all sorts of places. Then +3 tomes were the epitome of tomes and are largely considered raid only. Turbine never promised it to stay that way. It may well be with future end-game additions they start dropping from all sorts of places and eventually degrade to what +2s are right now.

+4 tomes dropping from stuff that is technically not a raid is an indication to me they tie tomes to base level of the chest. Now, we could argue +4 tomes dropping is because the chest is "epic" (and therefor needs be considered raid) or because they are level 24 chests (unlike standard chests which, if you look at the loot, obviously don't scale).

To me the whole question boils down to: does Turbine plan to have +3 tomes drop from chests with a base level 21. There are currently no such quests in the game. So, I am not going to accuse Turbine of breaking their holy oath when all I have is speculation to go on.

I sure hope by the time they will become permanent additions to the store they also will be dropping from places other than end-game raids.

gloopygloop
09-30-2011, 10:07 AM
Yes. I was talking about the end-chest. Why would end chests from epic quests not count? Granted if you consider them raid chests (which I still feel would be a stretch since they are not actually located in a raid) then yeah, +4 would be raid loot.

There used to be a time +2 tomes were mostly raid loot only. Turbine added more end-game and they started dropping from all sorts of places. Then +3 tomes were the epitome of tomes and are largely considered raid only. Turbine never promised it to stay that way. It may well be with future end-game additions they start dropping from all sorts of places and eventually degrade to what +2s are right now.

+4 tomes dropping from stuff that is technically not a raid is an indication to me they tie tomes to base level of the chest. Now, we could argue +4 tomes dropping is because the chest is "epic" (and therefor needs be considered raid) or because they are level 24 chests (unlike standard chests which, if you look at the loot, obviously don't scale).

To me the whole question boils down to: does Turbine plan to have +3 tomes drop from chests with a base level 21. There are currently no such quests in the game. So, I am not going to accuse Turbine of breaking their holy oath when all I have is speculation to go on.

I sure hope by the time they will become permanent additions to the store they also will be dropping from places other than end-game raids.

Going back to Missing Minds's question - do you have any evidence of a +4 tome dropping in a quest under any circumstances (epic or otherwise)? Which quest did the +4 tome drop in?

I've never heard of a +4 tome dropping in a quest - not even an Epic quest. I'd very much like to know if +4 tomes did drop in quests and not just VoN6 and ToD.

Xenostrata
09-30-2011, 10:14 AM
I've only ever heard of +4 out of ToD on elite. Got screen caps of this to prove +4s in standard chests? Epic Raid, epic chest doesn't count as that would also be the raid loot chest.


I have a guildy who got a +4 con tome out of eVON6, and I recently got a +4 cha tome on my sorc out of a NORMAL ToD. I don't have an SS of the loot, but I can SS the tome, my character sheet to prove I'm on my first life, and my quest journal to prove I've only ever done ToD on normal (no elite completions).

dkyle
09-30-2011, 10:17 AM
I have a guildy who got a +4 con tome out of eVON6, and I recently got a +4 cha tome on my sorc out of a NORMAL ToD. I don't have an SS of the loot, but I can SS the tome, my character sheet to prove I'm on my first life, and my quest journal to prove I've only ever done ToD on normal (no elite completions).

Yeah, Missing was wrong about Elite ToD being the only place. But as gloopy said, they're in VoN6 and ToD, not just Elite ToD. I think they also drop in EDQ, though, but not sure.

But the important thing being, Raids only. Not quests, even epic quests.

Doomcrew
09-30-2011, 10:19 AM
"What matters is the power and rarity of the item - once they start putting up SoSs for sale, or +4 tomes, or the Torc. These things would be game breaking, and being able to buy them without grind would be bad."
Xenostrata


Sorry, couldn't be bothered finding the original quote, so selling +3 tomes is OK, but +4's would cross the line?

Xenostrata
09-30-2011, 10:26 AM
"What matters is the power and rarity of the item - once they start putting up SoSs for sale, or +4 tomes, or the Torc. These things would be game breaking, and being able to buy them without grind would be bad."
Xenostrata


Sorry, couldn't be bothered finding the original quote, so selling +3 tomes is OK, but +4's would cross the line?

+3 tomes = commonly found on the end reward list of 6 different raids, occasionally found in the raids themselves. Some people have bad luck with them, I personally have more than I know what to do with on Wyl. These are marginally powerful, onlygranting a real benefit if you are a min/maxxing twfer or you are left on an odd score after the +2 tome. Conclucion - moderately rare and powerful, nothing to write home about if you get one.

+4 tomes = Rarely found on the end reward list of a SINGLE raid, VERY rarely drops inside of 2 raid chests. Will guarantee an improvement over a +2 regardless of odd or even ending stat. Conclusion - Incredibly rare and hard to get, more powerful than a +3 by a fair margin. If you get one, consider yourself very lucky.

So yes, I'd have a problem with +4s.

Ebuddy
10-03-2011, 12:50 PM
And after 20 shrouds, I passed on a +3 Str Tome (The only +3 in the list too) because I already had one from ravers fate runs, such a pity, that I had to not care about such a super rare near guaranteed item for only running 20 quests, and settle for yet another cleaning stone.

You could have kept it for when you TR...oh wait, that's right, you're waiting until Turbine just lets you keep your tomes upon TR. ;oP

drwhy13
11-01-2011, 06:28 PM
Heh, exactly... They're both crazy... However, the guy who drops $500 helps ME because Turbine has more money to develop with. The guy who plays 12 hours a day doesn't really help me as much.

Actually, I shouldn't make fun... I'm semi-crazy myself... I'll probaby drop $100 on these tomes... Turbine is wicked smart sometimes.

People sometimes forget that it takes BIG$$$ to keep things running. And I agree with you Turbine is in business to make $$ PERIOD. That is what a business does or it doesn't stay around. Breaking even does not cut-it. To me its playing the game, if someone spends $$ to help level there "toon" Good for them, if they would rather run multi times quest even more power to them..

Play have fun Or Don't