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JOTMON
09-26-2011, 03:11 PM
Remember.. no shrines before Epic LOB fight...

Optional Chest drops garbage loot, put in something decent, or get rid of the chest and put in a shrine.

End fight is too long, after an hour or so in the LOB fight my brain stopped functioning effectively.
Add a rest shrine intermission at 50%, I needed a pee break by this point.

Add mana regen buff in the center along with the melee power buff, no reason to require healers to drink pots when timing can get you a chance for some mana recouvery.

Dying when knocked into water causes stone to fall to bottom. port stones to the center or something.

2 Minute rez blocker is annoying especially when he goes beserk..

Notes
Cometfall hits hard spread out the healers.

Pewpewing assassins at the last 5% LOB life minutes causes lag and they peg for a lot of damage while you are stuck rebounding and taking damage. My radiant bursts were going off, but quickened cures/heals dropped my sp bar but did not cast reliably, so be prepared.

Artificer's tactical detonation is nasty especially combined with pewpewing assassins and does make the last 5% challenging.(wish i had a torc)

Melee's, pack a spare ESOS, your main ESOS will likely be broken before the fight is over(had a melee that had no other weapon).

Healers, pack a lot of scrolls, i used over 600 and ran out.. dug into my pots more than I would have liked.


Currently, once epic LOB is completed once for favour, i don't see any reason to ever run this quest again, the rewards just don't = the time or resources and I can't see that changing anytime unless you put some static +4 BTA tomes in there and then I may change my mind.

Shade
09-26-2011, 03:32 PM
Wow.. I don't want to see most of those nerfs on normal, let alone epic.

Sounds like you find everything challenging "annoying" .. Plus you say youd only do it once.. So why are you even there. Elite gives the same favor if thats what your after.

Epics for those who really want an incredible challenge. And yea youd have to run it more then once for the rewards which are epic only. But they are also not so much of a power jump that every players gona want/need them, the t3 is pretty minor compared to t1/t2.

Yea the fights very long. But done right it's 25-40min long, not "break your esos long"

If your esos broke, its because you died and failed, not because its too long.

Don't die. Keep up the DPS, and he goes down in a reasonable amount of time.

If it was just him, he could be DPS's down in 5min, his hp aren't that unreasonable. What makes it long is the hounds, trash and pillars.

What has crazy HP:
Titans in MA. They are probably the same as LoB, yet also have 100% fort which really screws up DPS, and there are two of them.

LoB Epic hp are fine. We had him down in about 40 min, with an enormous amount of deaths severely slowing our DPS.

JOTMON
09-26-2011, 04:34 PM
Wow.. I don't want to see most of those nerfs on normal, let alone epic.
Sounds like you find everything challenging "annoying" ..

Not so, challenging is exciting.
20 minutes to clear and get everyone to the quest and another hour for the quest is annoying.
How is adding a shrine or adding mana regen off the center buff a nerf.
The halfing of his HP was just to shorten the time of the overall quest, i was getting bored.


Plus you say youd only do it once.. So why are you even there. Elite gives the same favor if thats what your after..

If it is available in epic, It will be done in epic(at least once).
Elite offers nothing that Epic doesnt give.


Epics for those who really want an incredible challenge. And yea youd have to run it more then once for the rewards which are epic only. But they are also not so much of a power jump that every players gona want/need them, the t3 is pretty minor compared to t1/t2..

Repeated epics are done to get something from the quest that is usefull.
There is nothing usefull for a cleric or non melee classes from what I can see.


Yea the fights very long. But done right it's 25-40min long, not "break your esos long"
If your esos broke, its because you died and failed, not because its too long..Don't die. Keep up the DPS, and he goes down in a reasonable amount of time..

Deaths happen, Baarbarian rages run out, more deaths=more broken items.. missing the timing on his rage burst.. just saying bring a spare.


If it was just him, he could be DPS's down in 5min, his hp aren't that unreasonable. What makes it long is the hounds, trash and pillars..

Possibly, I suspect it will take more than 5Min, with his stun attacks and rage bursts, jumps....


What has crazy HP:
Titans in MA. They are probably the same as LoB, yet also have 100% fort which really screws up DPS, and there are two of them..

Meh, the annoying thing there was the melee titan running around the room while everyone chased him around the room like a bunch of lemmings. HP's are high would be ok if he could be penned in or Intimidated.


LoB Epic hp are fine. We had him down in about 40 min, with an enormous amount of deaths severely slowing our DPS.

This will likely change with practice.
like Abbot used to be except Abbot has usefull unique rewards that keep me coming back for more, like the elusive litany.

Xenostrata
09-26-2011, 05:11 PM
I like the idea of maybe giving the LoB an aura that replenishes sp - if you want, you can walk into melee range in order to save on pots.

It also helps with the fact that I feel NO quest should have potions mandatory for completion.

redspecter23
09-26-2011, 05:34 PM
There certainly is a point in any given raid where if the fight goes on past a certain length of time, it's not really more of a challenge, but more of an sp drain.

Epic Velah for instance. As long as your healers have SP and the lag monster doesn't strike, you could go 100+ rounds and still win that fight. The only real challenge would be managing your SP to last that long. At that point, the HP on the dragon (which is balanced by turbine behind the scenes) is your ticket to winning. More DPS can speed this up and better SP management can allow you to last longer, but the real question is, is it at a balanced point where you can do the run with 0 pots used if you have a well geared group. I believe that it is, but that's not to say that if Velah had 5x the hp she has now that it would be doable with no resources.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the challenge ends after a couple rounds go by and your ticket to success becomes not so much the challenge, but whether your casters can manage their sp to last the fight.

I'm not against long drawn out fights. I think they can be quite interesting, especially the Lord of Blades encounter which I think is very well done overall. The challenge is there if you want it to be. The different phases and special attacks keep it interesting far longer than a raid like EV6. That being said, I could get behind a change that allowed some SP regen during the fight at some points. The challenge for the most part should be in the fight itself and to a lesser extent on your ability to manage your SP and/or chug pots. If under the best circumstances a raid can't be completed without pot consumption (not saying this is the case with epic LoB. I still think it's too early to judge) then I think some SP regen mechanic can keep the long fight going without having players resort to having to pay to win through the store. It's not any easier, it's just less costly. The limiting factor on your SP then would be the ability to make it to the "regen time" instead of to the end of the raid.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 07:07 PM
I do think Power of the Forge should grant some SP regeneration.

I've not run Epic yet myself, but from talking to people that have, the longest phase is waiting for all the bluebars to Torc off all of the Bladesworn Assassins. You might want to Adamantine Ritual your Torc too - one guildie reported someone in one of their runs having their Torc finish at 5% durability.

This could be cut out by adding a less dull way to regen SP, and taking Power of the Forge on a divine is quite costly to pillar DPS, so it's not without cost.


But the death penalties are what make this raid on the higher difficulties. Noone cares (much) if you get hit by fire in Velah. But in Hard or higher LoB, player mistakes matter. And that makes the raid much more exciting. You can't just ignore Whirlwind and think 'meh, healers will raise me, and it's their pots not mine' like people do in other raids.

xTethx
09-26-2011, 07:13 PM
No to all the stated changes.

ainmosni
09-26-2011, 07:15 PM
i'm not sure if epic LOB can be completed without mana pot consumption.

if someone can do a 0 mana pot run, i'd be more than impressed.

but again, i dont think it's possible. someone prove me wrong please.

JOTMON
09-26-2011, 07:21 PM
No to all the stated changes.

From the uberest of the uber guild that completed epic 2 days after it went live....

Alkindus
09-26-2011, 07:23 PM
It is called epic for a reason. The problem lies with you and your group, not the raid.

JOTMON
09-26-2011, 07:33 PM
It is called epic for a reason. The problem lies with you and your group, not the raid.

Did you even read the post?

Party was fine, healer resources were a concern.
Boredom from an hour long quest was a concern.

Primary suggestions are for better loot and mana recouvery options.
Crafting is for weapons and some possible caster items(but still primarially dps).
Nothing usefull for healers.

transtemporal
09-26-2011, 07:36 PM
Dunno if I agree with those Jot. Once we get the patterns down and work out what works best, we'll be knocking that off regularly.

More reliable SP regen from the middle would be nice though. At the moment, it just seems like it's consciously designed to make healers suck SP pots.

redspecter23
09-26-2011, 07:43 PM
Dunno if I agree with those Jot. Once we get the patterns down and work out what works best, we'll be knocking that off regularly.

More reliable SP regen from the middle would be nice though. At the moment, it just seems like it's consciously designed to make healers suck SP pots.

That is basically my concern as well. If the completions are coming easily enough and the only "challenge" is how few pots you use, then adding an SP regen mechanic of some kind doesn't change any aspect of the raid other than how many pots you have to buy.

If I'm wrong and good groups are going to be able to knock out 0 pot completions of epic, then I retract that suggestion and I'll be quite happy to be wrong. My concern is only that even the best groups cannot do a 0 pot run. I don't believe that SP pots should be required under perfect circumstances. Pot chugging does not equal challenge. It only means TP spent at the store.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 07:56 PM
Did you even read the post?

Party was fine, healer resources were a concern.
Boredom from an hour long quest was a concern.

Primary suggestions are for better loot and mana recouvery options.
Crafting is for weapons and some possible caster items(but still primarially dps).
Nothing usefull for healers.

Nothing useful for healers????????

Is it just me that thinks that Superior Devotion 9'ed caster level 22 Mass Heals are better than the no Devotion caster level 20 Mass Heals most people are using at the moment?

Is it just me that thinks Superior Light Lore and +2 caster level is a big upgrade to Divine Punishment?

Other than Monks, divines get the best upgrades from the new raid, assuming they are willing to have those effects in their weapon slots. This isn't VOD, where there was a serious lack of divine-oriented loot.

transtemporal
09-26-2011, 08:36 PM
Pot chugging does not equal challenge. It only means TP spent at the store.

Agreed. I've heard it said from certain quarters that in fact, epic lob is NOT a challenge because "we have unlimited mana [from store pots] now". That made me laugh.

R0cksteady
09-26-2011, 08:45 PM
No to most of the changes you suggest.

But I WOULD like to see a shrine. It doesn't add challenge for it not to be there, it just makes the parts getting to the boss slow and boring because no one is using boosts or mana.

I also wouldn't mind seeing an aura around LoB for mana regen since the place really is ridiculous for mana use, you're choosing between sucking pots or failing the raid.

I like the challenge the way it is, but removing the need to suck back tons of pots isn't going to make it easier, it's going to make it cheaper.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 08:47 PM
Agreed. I've heard it said from certain quarters that in fact, epic lob is NOT a challenge because "we have unlimited mana [from store pots] now". That made me laugh.

This is precisely why they added the anti-raise effect into the raid.

Now, you can't make up for a lack of skill with mana potions.

JOTMON
09-26-2011, 08:51 PM
Nothing useful for healers????????

Is it just me that thinks that Superior Devotion 9'ed caster level 22 Mass Heals are better than the no Devotion caster level 20 Mass Heals most people are using at the moment?

Is it just me that thinks Superior Light Lore and +2 caster level is a big upgrade to Divine Punishment?

Other than Monks, divines get the best upgrades from the new raid, assuming they are willing to have those effects in their weapon slots. This isn't VOD, where there was a serious lack of divine-oriented loot.

Mass Heal already caps life bars, so superior devotion does what... possibly turn off a meta magic like empower healing that is a required feat for radiant servant..

Base weapon with metal type flametouched iron mystical effect gets Superior Devotion IX
I'll give you the Superior devotion IX is pretty good potentially better than
... Epic Chainmail Coif -Eternal Faith Superior Devotion VII Devotion IX Empty Colorless Augment Slot Empty Yellow Augment Slot
Tier1 nothing usefull for healer- superior elemental IX focus
Tier2 nothing usefull for healer- Superior Elemental Lore
Tier 3 for Arcane Augmentation IX vs..
Epic Staff of Arcane Power (Arcane Augmentation IX,Archmagi,Good Luck +2,Empty Colorless Augment,Empty Violet Augment Slot)

Granted it combines 2 effects onto a weapon slot, but is a pretty intensive heavy craft for a healer to farm for an item that uses 2 out of 4 tiers and has no epic slots compared to farming it for your melee or caster.

Which would you build for first
a melee/caster that can use all tiers or a healer that can partially use half the tiers.

protokon
09-26-2011, 08:53 PM
The HP amount is too much. if the fight literally takes that long, especially with an exceptionally well-prepared party, there is something wrong there. the total end-fight against LOB should not be more than 30 minutes tops with a stud group, shrine or not, I'm losing interest after 25 minutes of the same fight.

If it was over an hour fighting multiple raid bosses that required different strategies to handle, such as TOD epic, that would be acceptable. 1 hour for a single fight really isn't, not because of the challenge but due to the boringness in general of such a drawn out fight.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 09:01 PM
Base weapon with metal type flametouched iron mystical effect gets Superior Devotion IX
I'll give you the Superior devotion IX is pretty good potentially better than
... Epic Chainmail Coif -Eternal Faith Superior Devotion VII Devotion IX Empty Colorless Augment Slot Empty Yellow Augment Slot
Tier1 nothing usefull for healer- superior elemental IX focus
Tier2 nothing usefull for healer- Superior Elemental Lore
Tier 3 for Arcane Augmentation IX vs..
Epic Staff of Arcane Power (Arcane Augmentation IX,Archmagi,Good Luck +2,Empty Colorless Augment,Empty Violet Augment Slot)

Granted it combines 2 effects onto a weapon slot, but is a pretty intensive heavy craft for a healer to farm for an item that uses 2 out of 4 tiers and has no epic slots compared to farming it for your melee or caster.

Which would you build for first



Pretty clearly, I'm prioritising my healing-capable toons. If the Power Cells aren't BtC, basically everyone in guild is giving their first power cell to their divine, because Superior Devotion 9 is such a huge upgrade for them. (A few would give their first power cells to their monks, which I can understand too, as they get almost as much out of Alchemical Crafting as divines do).

Yes, even over Epic Chainmail Coif, which me and a guildie are two of the maybe 10 people on each server that have managed to make one.

Second tier effects (Superior Healing Lore and an irrelevant elemental lore) might be nothing much, but they are all upside. And tier 3 - static +2 caster levels has been available on only one item so far IIRC, and it's one divines can't use.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 09:04 PM
The HP amount is too much. if the fight literally takes that long, especially with an exceptionally well-prepared party, there is something wrong there. the total end-fight against LOB should not be more than 30 minutes tops with a stud group, shrine or not, I'm losing interest after 25 minutes of the same fight.

If it was over an hour fighting multiple raid bosses that required different strategies to handle, such as TOD epic, that would be acceptable. 1 hour for a single fight really isn't, not because of the challenge but due to the boringness in general of such a drawn out fight.

His HP aren't the thing that makes the raid take a long time, it's the significant adds and the pillars that are almost impossible to melee.

The fight isn't 30 minutes of 'surround and pound' the boss like a five million HP Arraetrikos would be.

Inferno346
09-26-2011, 09:11 PM
Pretty clearly, I'm prioritising my healing-capable toons. If the Power Cells aren't BtC, basically everyone in guild is giving their first power cell to their divine, because Superior Devotion 9 is such a huge upgrade for them. (A few would give their first power cells to their monks, which I can understand too, as they get almost as much out of Alchemical Crafting as divines do).

Yes, even over Epic Chainmail Coif, which me and a guildie are two of the maybe 10 people on each server that have managed to make one.

Second tier effects (Superior Healing Lore and an irrelevant elemental lore) might be nothing much, but they are all upside. And tier 3 - static +2 caster levels has been available on only one item so far IIRC, and it's one divines can't use.

Hmm... maybe for FvS this is true, but I think I will stick with Staff of the Petitioner for mass heals on my cleric. It is rare that (aka I have never seen) mass heal does not heal someone to full with the 1.75x bonus from radiant servant. Superior light lore, on the other hand, is what I am excited about.

JOTMON
09-26-2011, 09:20 PM
Pretty clearly, I'm prioritising my healing-capable toons. If the Power Cells aren't BtC, basically everyone in guild is giving their first power cell to their divine, because Superior Devotion 9 is such a huge upgrade for them. (A few would give their first power cells to their monks, which I can understand too, as they get almost as much out of Alchemical Crafting as divines do).

Yes, even over Epic Chainmail Coif, which me and a guildie are two of the maybe 10 people on each server that have managed to make one.

Second tier effects (Superior Healing Lore and an irrelevant elemental lore) might be nothing much, but they are all upside. And tier 3 - static +2 caster levels has been available on only one item so far IIRC, and it's one divines can't use.

I didn't see Superior healing lore as an option for tier 2, only saw..
AIR Superior Electric Lore
Earth Superior Acid Lore
Water Superior Ice Lore
Fire Superior Fire Lore

Currently Mystical/Martial power cells are only available after 10 completions of Lord of Blades raids. So not available to be passed around(this is rumoured to be changed in U12), and i question how many will drop even after U12.
Everyone will pass them to the healers?.. arcanes can benefit from these power cells. and everyone else wants power cells to craft their respective items.

therobb
09-26-2011, 09:22 PM
Yes, even over Epic Chainmail Coif, which me and a guildie are two of the maybe 10 people on each server that have managed to make one.


85% of statistics are made up on the spot.

R0cksteady
09-26-2011, 09:38 PM
I didn't see Superior healing lore as an option for tier 2, only saw..
AIR Superior Electric Lore
Earth Superior Acid Lore
Water Superior Ice Lore
Fire Superior Fire Lore

Currently Mystical/Martial power cells are only available after 10 completions of Lord of Blades raids and likely BTC. So not available to be passed around(this is rumoured to be changed in U12), and i question how many will drop even after U12.
Everyone will pass them to the healers?.. arcanes can benefit from these power cells. and everyone else wants power cells to craft their respective items.

Actually, iot's not rumored to change in update 12. It's be said by a dev that it will be changed in 11.1.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 09:51 PM
I didn't see Superior healing lore as an option for tier 2, only saw..
AIR Superior Electric Lore
Earth Superior Acid Lore
Water Superior Ice Lore
Fire Superior Fire Lore

Currently Mystical/Martial power cells are only available after 10 completions of Lord of Blades raids and likely BTC. So not available to be passed around(this is rumoured to be changed in U12), and i question how many will drop even after U12.
Everyone will pass them to the healers?.. arcanes can benefit from these power cells. and everyone else wants power cells to craft their respective items.

Every flametouched iron item with caster mods gets Superior Devotion 9 (as well as 50%/lvl9 to whatever element) on tier 1, and Superior Healing Lore (as well as the same for the element) on tier 2.

We don't know if the cells are BtC, BtA or unbound. If they are BtA or unbound, most players I know will prioritise T1 on their divines first (or their monks). In guilds that focus on 'improve the overall performance of the group' over 'improve my personal performance', I'd expect in-chest cells will be given to monks and divines at first, and then after they have them, those guilds will focus more on the armed melees and the arcanes, who get smaller upgrades.

As for clerics that feel they are already getting everyone from 15% to 100% with Empowered Mass Heal - I agree, these items are less important to you. But with the new items, you might be able to turn Empower Healing off at times to conserve SP (then put it back on for situations where the aura is more important). Also, you'll often encounter low healing amp melees in PUGs. High-end Devotion 9 helps a lot there.

patang01
09-26-2011, 10:11 PM
LoB Epic hp are fine. We had him down in about 40 min, with an enormous amount of deaths severely slowing our DPS.
.

That sounds extremely boring.

The idea to play one battle that long is like watching a 70's kung fu movie in slow motion. It might be 'challenging' but playing elite shroud (example of new elite HP and fort) it's not fun. It's the same as before just longer as a fun substitute.

sirgog
09-26-2011, 10:30 PM
That sounds extremely boring.

The idea to play one battle that long is like watching a 70's kung fu movie in slow motion. It might be 'challenging' but playing elite shroud (example of new elite HP and fort) it's not fun. It's the same as before just longer as a fun substitute.

Did you notice what he said about an 'enormous amount of deaths'?

Get those out of the question, and you are looking at a much faster raid. Which I'm sure we'll get better at. Flawlessly executed runs will probably involve a 20-25 minute final fight.

Normal and to a lesser extent Hard are there for people that still make mistakes like dying to Reverse Whirlwind, or that can't get out of doggy vomit fast enough. They also let you practice for Elite/Epic. But for people that go straight to Epic, well, they don't get the same opportunity to practice, and so they take a long time to beat the raid.


Give it time. Shroud used to take 4 passes in part 4 on Normal when it was new, maybe 3 in a great group.

MyHumps
09-26-2011, 10:48 PM
I never use empower healing to begin with. :/ I always felt like it was a waste of a feat. I still don't have it on any of my divines.

transtemporal
09-26-2011, 11:08 PM
This is precisely why they added the anti-raise effect into the raid.

Now, you can't make up for a lack of skill with mana potions.

I disagree. The anti-raise effect just gives you a powerful incentive to keep people up. It doesn't prevent you from drinking pots. If anything, it'll make you suck down pots faster to make sure that people don't die in the first place.

My point was that people don't actually have unlimited pots, nor do they like to use them unless they have to, so the argument that epic lob is easy because of unlimited mana is somewhat disingenuous.

Alkindus
09-26-2011, 11:12 PM
Did you even read the post?

Party was fine, healer resources were a concern.
Boredom from an hour long quest was a concern.

Primary suggestions are for better loot and mana recouvery options.
Crafting is for weapons and some possible caster items(but still primarially dps).
Nothing usefull for healers.

Yes I read the post, all I read was waaah waaah waaah, too hard, I want more shrines and a rest break, epic should be easy, where's my easy button.

R0cksteady
09-27-2011, 10:22 AM
I never use empower healing to begin with. :/ I always felt like it was a waste of a feat. I still don't have it on any of my divines.

It's a prereq for Radiant Servant,

And it's a great feat for divines. It works on heal/mass heal, and costs less than empower.