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View Full Version : Tougher Epic Bosses? Better Mnemonic Pots!



Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 09:46 AM
So it appears that the elite and epic bosses have had their hit points and fortification greatly increased with U11. I, like many on the forums, don't see this as a game improvement. I understand that Epic and Elite quests should be, well...Epic and Elite. The issue is that it really hasn't become anything but a drain on healers. Parties aren't wiping because the bosses are killing them, parties are wiping because healers are going through tons of resources. So...what's a possible fix?

How about adding Superior Mnemonic Potions or Epic Mnemonic Potions? Perhaps a Superior Mnemonic potion could recoup around 1000 SP and an Epic potion around 1500?

In certain quests, I have come to expect that my healer MAY need to drink a pot or two. What I don't like is that the same party of proficient players hasn't had any decrease in their abilities, it's just that the fight is taking way longer and requiring much more healing.

The real challenge in upping the bosses doesn't seem to be parties being able to survive, it is how many resources can your healer endure to lose... :mad:

Arctik
09-17-2011, 09:55 AM
That would be awesome but I would bet you a million dollars that you would have to get them off the ddo store.
:P

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 09:57 AM
That would be awesome but I would bet you a million dollars that you would have to get them off the ddo store.
:P

That would be...sad. :(

I would hope they would be in-line with what is currently available. Maybe Superior Mnemonic Pots would be ML 16 and Epic ML 20. Make the drop rates similar to current pots. At least then you could take them as end rewards and buy them on the AH.

I wouldn't be so ticked off about the long end fights if I had a way to mitigate them.

Syllph
09-17-2011, 10:04 AM
While not a solution, a possible alternative is having the others in your group greatly help.

I would happily simply give 2 Major pots to the healers (4 for two healers etc). Especially for raids like LoB where pot usage is high. If everyone in the raid gave up only 2 pots (not hard to get) then the healer would have 24 (2x12 including himself).

Again this doesn't solve the problem but it would definitely mean the healer wouldn't be hesitant to chug. While there are many reasons this would not be the best solution, it's one that will work until a better alternative is found.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 10:09 AM
While not a solution, a possible alternative is having the others in your group greatly help.

I would happily simply give 2 Major pots to the healers (4 for two healers etc). Especially for raids like LoB where pot usage is high. If everyone in the raid gave up only 2 pots (not hard to get) then the healer would have 24 (2x12 including himself).

Again this doesn't solve the problem but it would definitely mean the healer wouldn't be hesitant to chug. While there are many reasons this would not be the best solution, it's one that will work until a better alternative is found.

If everyone thought like you do, then I wouldn't be posting this! :)

Unfortunately, I believe the vast majority of healers are using their own resources to complete these quests/raids. Maybe in time, parties will realize the drain on resources and the days of LFMs that say "LoB 2 Pots for healers to join" will come back. (Anyone remember the early days of VoD? ;) )

Jendrak
09-17-2011, 10:44 AM
As some one who has played a healer for a while I dont see any problem with the current changes in the bosses. If you party is wiping and your out of resources there are a few possabilities....

1) you were underprepaird (resources)
2) the group overestimated it ability and should have picked a more sutable difficulty (not everyone should be able to destroy elite or epic content)
3) your tatics need to be re-worked

While these changes are going to change how things are done a seasoned player will adapt to the changes and continue crushing raids as before. The answer is most definatly NOT adding more power as this is exactly what has led up to the current boss buff.

Uska
09-17-2011, 10:54 AM
I remember when certain raids had a two pot buy in then we learned the raids and that ended maybe that's what we need now

Tinco
09-17-2011, 11:17 AM
20% of a full sp-bar without cooldown per pot is already way too much, better pots would just add to the problem. Content should not be designed around using pots regularly, it makes the base sp completely irrelevant and encourages brute-forcing critical moments with pot usage instead of intelligent play.

varusso
09-17-2011, 11:18 AM
How would drinking one of the new pots be better than downing a few of the current ones at timely intervals? The new pots would be ridiculously costly by comparison, and much rarer (being newer, there would not be stockpiles of them to draw upon). The ONLY advantage it would have would be to give a big boost of SP at once rather than via a few (cheaper by comparison) pots. And honestly, if you let your SP get down to the point where you MUST have this sizable recovery all at once, then you did something wrong.

* Use scrolls and wands -- they are MUCH cheaper than SP pots of any kind, and they will suffice in most situations other than intense boss/trash fights.
* In quests where you legitimately "need" to drink an SP pot, then make it clear that party members will need to bring their own HP pots and chug them during non-critical times, or they will be REQUIRED to pony up an SP pot at the START of the quest to help make up for your expenditures -- the vast majority of players will bring their own methods of self healing to help out.
* Back off on the difficulty of the quest until your group is geared/experienced enough to do it with less resources consumed.
* Make them slow down a bit and actually USE your healing aura (cleric) instead of burning SP on cure spells. Make them group up when you Do use a mass cure/heal, and dont single-target hel those who refuse.
* Get other "heal capable" toons (bards, rangers, pallies, rogues with UMD, etc) to help out a bit. Especially when not in-combat and getting the group topped off before the next major fight.
* Use better tactics
---Charms from the wizzie can make many fights cheese -- you dont need to heal a group that isnt being attacked by mobs that are fighting each other.
---Fascinate from the bard WITHOUT mass-nuking/meleeing them and breaking them all. Tak em one or two at a time.
---Use bluff to single pull some of the tougher trash/boss mobs.
---Let the rogue assassinate BEFORE jumping everything and setting off mob AOEs that break his stealth.

In other words, groups have to play as a team, not a bunch of epeens soloing in a group. Harder difs and higher level quests and raids SHOULD be more difficult to complete. And yes sometimes they SHOULD "require" expenditure of resources -- when they do, the rewards should be worth it, of course.

Frankly, we do not need bigger SP pots. The ones we have are adequate, if people come to the table prepared. And that means everyone, not just the healer.

Vellrad
09-17-2011, 11:21 AM
Make bauble and epic ring self OR friend target.
Simple solution ^^

thandros
09-17-2011, 11:22 AM
What we need is Artificer's to get Summon Mana Rod! Haha. cookie for those who get the old eq reference.

varusso
09-17-2011, 11:29 AM
Make bauble and epic ring self OR friend target.
Simple solution ^^

That would actually be a very nice thing, though I am sure many would complain it is 'too powerful'. Only problem would be accidentally boosting someone else (IE: you are targeting the tank for heals, and you pop your SP clicky, then blow the charge on the tank). And juggling targets in this game is already **** compared to other games.

Or give PMs the ability to infuse SP, sacrificing some of theirs to give to someone else. For that matter, do the same thing with HP and give PMs a necro-styled Raise Dead. They play with dead icky things all the time, and they are used to spending their own resources (HP for bolt/blast) to affect others. Fits with the theme :D

Hendrik
09-17-2011, 11:32 AM
So, once we learn the Raids, and Epic become easier from time and experience, a nerf to SP pots would be in order?

;)

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 11:38 AM
How would drinking one of the new pots be better than downing a few of the current ones at timely intervals? The new pots would be ridiculously costly by comparison, and much rarer (being newer, there would not be stockpiles of them to draw upon). The ONLY advantage it would have would be to give a big boost of SP at once rather than via a few (cheaper by comparison) pots. And honestly, if you let your SP get down to the point where you MUST have this sizable recovery all at once, then you did something wrong.

* Use scrolls and wands -- they are MUCH cheaper than SP pots of any kind, and they will suffice in most situations other than intense boss/trash fights.
* In quests where you legitimately "need" to drink an SP pot, then make it clear that party members will need to bring their own HP pots and chug them during non-critical times, or they will be REQUIRED to pony up an SP pot at the START of the quest to help make up for your expenditures -- the vast majority of players will bring their own methods of self healing to help out.
* Back off on the difficulty of the quest until your group is geared/experienced enough to do it with less resources consumed.
* Make them slow down a bit and actually USE your healing aura (cleric) instead of burning SP on cure spells. Make them group up when you Do use a mass cure/heal, and dont single-target hel those who refuse.
* Get other "heal capable" toons (bards, rangers, pallies, rogues with UMD, etc) to help out a bit. Especially when not in-combat and getting the group topped off before the next major fight.
* Use better tactics
---Charms from the wizzie can make many fights cheese -- you dont need to heal a group that isnt being attacked by mobs that are fighting each other.
---Fascinate from the bard WITHOUT mass-nuking/meleeing them and breaking them all. Tak em one or two at a time.
---Use bluff to single pull some of the tougher trash/boss mobs.
---Let the rogue assassinate BEFORE jumping everything and setting off mob AOEs that break his stealth.

In other words, groups have to play as a team, not a bunch of epeens soloing in a group. Harder difs and higher level quests and raids SHOULD be more difficult to complete. And yes sometimes they SHOULD "require" expenditure of resources -- when they do, the rewards should be worth it, of course.

Frankly, we do not need bigger SP pots. The ones we have are adequate, if people come to the table prepared. And that means everyone, not just the healer.

Did you even read the post? I am talking about Epic Bosses, not Threnal trash mobs.

Wand whipping is not gonna do anything in mass heal situations in Epics vs bosses. Most likely (and hopefully) your cleric isn't standing in the middle of the pile with his aura clicking trying to have that be a major resource for healing the party.

My suggestion was that there are Superior and Epic Mnemonic potions. It's not something you would waste when you need a little mana to finish a fight. It's something you would use in a protracted fight that you know is currently taking 8-10 Major Pots. You can look at it as the concept of "over healing". If you are dumb enough to waste an Epic Mnemonic pot and get 1500 SP, when you only needed 300 to finish off what you are doing, that is an intelligence and stragtegy problem I can't help you with.

Again, with the "party ponies up pots pre-quest"...that's great, when it actually happens. As it stands, I can spend plat for MMP from the AH. I can spend TP and get an unlimited amount of SP as it is. It's not like adding this to the game will suddenly introduce an ability that isn't already there. It simply acknowledges the fact that the game has changed in end fights.

I agree that tactics will change over time. Builds will change to accomodate and mitigate, no doubt. But as a player that has played since the beginning, and runs a healer as my main Epic raider, I feel like I have a handle on what today's Epic Boss fight looks like.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 11:40 AM
So, once we learn the Raids, and Epic become easier from time and experience, a nerf to SP pots would be in order?

;)

Lol. Maybe. Like I said in the above post, however, we have the ability to get unlimited SP from pots right now. Adding a different variant would just acknowledge that while levels have gone up, bosses have gotten harder, new content has been added to the game...we still have the same SP regaining capabilities that we did 3 years ago. ;)

The Devs have recognized (it seems) that higher DPS weapons and spells are in order, given the toughness of some of the end fights. The losers are the poor suckers that have to heal the meat shields! :D

varusso
09-17-2011, 11:53 AM
Did you even read the post? I am talking about Epic Bosses, not Threnal trash mobs.

Wand whipping is not gonna do anything in mass heal situations in Epics vs bosses. Most likely (and hopefully) your cleric isn't standing in the middle of the pile with his aura clicking trying to have that be a major resource for healing the party.

My suggestion was that there are Superior and Epic Mnemonic potions. It's not something you would waste when you need a little mana to finish a fight. It's something you would use in a protracted fight that you know is currently taking 8-10 Major Pots. You can look at it as the concept of "over healing". If you are dumb enough to waste an Epic Mnemonic pot and get 1500 SP, when you only needed 300 to finish off what you are doing, that is an intelligence and stragtegy problem I can't help you with.

Again, with the "party ponies up pots pre-quest"...that's great, when it actually happens. As it stands, I can spend plat for MMP from the AH. I can spend TP and get an unlimited amount of SP as it is. It's not like adding this to the game will suddenly introduce an ability that isn't already there. It simply acknowledges the fact that the game has changed in end fights.

I agree that tactics will change over time. Builds will change to accomodate and mitigate, no doubt. But as a player that has played since the beginning, and runs a healer as my main Epic raider, I feel like I have a handle on what today's Epic Boss fight looks like.

No, I didnt read your post at all. I also didnt read the part where you specifically mentioned elite AND epic. Did you read MINE? I specifically said that you could use scrolls and wands in most situations other than intense boss/trash fights. Doing so means that you have more SP when you DO enter those fights, because you didnt blow it all in the easy trash fights. Same thing goes with using your aura to heal up the group when NOT in those fights. Conservation of SP in non-critical battles (including having other players help out at those junctures) means you have more SP when the real fights start, thus NOT having to chug massive pots to heal through it. Evaluating your SP levels after a fight and chugging a couple pots BEFORE you engage again also means not having to use higher pots.

And lastly, dont infer your "lack of intelligence and strategy" onto me. I never once suggested or even implied that you should use a huge pot when a smaller one (or for that matter several smaller ones) would suffice. I have, in fact said the exact opposite. I have also pointed out several ways which could be used to PREVENT finding yourself in the situation where a larger pot is 'needed'. Your rude attitude and insulting manner was distinctly unneeded.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 11:54 AM
I guess the other fix is that all healers roll a WF FvS tank build with con-opp and torc...tank the boss, pray for lots of hits on them and tell the party "Mass Heals on Me!"

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 11:57 AM
No, I didnt read your post at all. I also didnt read the part where you specifically mentioned elite AND epic. Did you read MINE? I specifically said that you could use scrolls and wands in most situations other than intense boss/trash fights. Doing so means that you have more SP when you DO enter those fights, because you didnt blow it all in the easy trash fights. Same thing goes with using your aura to heal up the group when NOT in those fights. Conservation of SP in non-critical battles (including having other players help out at those junctures) means you have more SP when the real fights start, thus NOT having to chug massive pots to heal through it. Evaluating your SP levels after a fight and chugging a couple pots BEFORE you engage again also means not having to use higher pots.

And lastly, dont infer your "lack of intelligence and strategy" onto me. I never once suggested or even implied that you should use a huge pot when a smaller one (or for that matter several smaller ones) would suffice. I have, in fact said the exact opposite. I have also pointed out several ways which could be used to PREVENT finding yourself in the situation where a larger pot is 'needed'. Your rude attitude and insulting manner was distinctly unneeded.

I didn't infer my "lack of intelligence and strategy" on you. I pointed out what you already pointed out...we already have smaller pots. You can drink a bunch of them and get the same effect. The difference is that if there were bigger pots, you could adjust fire to accomodate epic boss fights. Not smaller fights. Adding larger pots is only intuitive.

When I said "Elite", I wasn't referring to "Elite" low level quests. I am talking about elite ToD, Elite LoB, ect... Maybe I wasn't clear.

I tried to MyDDO you to see who you run as characters. My points aren't directed to offend you, but you sound to me to be somebody arguing their point from the standpoint of the healed, not the healer.

Perhaps it isn't what you mean, but what you sound to me to be saying is: "Your resources you spend on healing me aren't my problem. They are yours because you don't strategically plan." I take offense to that. I have healed hundreds of epics. I see the changes and am feeling it in my pocket book. My suggestions are based on personal experience, not what I perceive.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 12:02 PM
No, I didnt read your post at all *snip*.

Maybe that is the problem in our communication? :confused:

Absolute-Omniscience
09-17-2011, 12:11 PM
Make bauble and epic ring self OR friend target.
Simple solution ^^

Or remove majors from the game (or add cooldown, or whatever), and you've got an even easier solution, and better - imo.

Bobthesponge
09-17-2011, 12:12 PM
Maybe that is the problem in our communication? :confused:

/facepalm

reading skill check: you rolled a 1.

sarcasm check: you rolled a 1.

double fail!

varusso
09-17-2011, 12:15 PM
I didn't infer my "lack of intelligence and strategy" on you.
Yes, actually, you did.

If you are dumb enough to waste an Epic Mnemonic pot and get 1500 SP, when you only needed 300 to finish off what you are doing, that is an intelligence and stragtegy problem I can't help you with.
You may not have INTENDED that to be the case, but given the tone of your post, it certainly comes across as such.

I tried to MyDDO you to see who you run as characters. My points aren't directed to offend you, but you sound to me to be somebody arguing their point from the standpoint of the healed, not the healer.

Perhaps it isn't what you mean, but what you sound to me to be saying is: "Your resources you spend on healing me aren't my problem. They are yours because you don't strategically plan." I take offense to that. I have healed hundreds of epics. I see the changes and am feeling it in my pocket book. My suggestions are based on personal experience, not what I perceive.
You apparently missed the ENTIRE post, where I laid out several suggestions on how to minimalize your own resource usage AND shift some of the burden onto the rest of the group, making them take some responsibility for themselves as well as the expenses, thus reducing your personal costs. I even flat out said that it was NOT just the healer's responsibility to come prepared with the right resources.

Now, any resources you must spend to make up for lack of group cohesion (which to a large extent DOES fall on the healer) ARE your problem. If the group wont work together, and you blow your resources trying to just power through it anyway, well thats on you. As the healer, you have the power to make or break any really tough run. If you say stop and gather for a heal, they will do so. If you go ahead and chase the ones that dont, to try and heal them, they will continue to ignore you. The healer almost always sets the pace of a quest.

And yes I have multiple healing toons. I also have a number of non-healer toons, all of which bring some method of self-sufficiency to the group in order to make the healer's life easier. Most of them are bugged on MyDDO. Not that it matters, cos its no one's business what my gear or build is unless I choose to share it. I personally try to play every single character type up to 20, so i have some idea of what it is actually like to BE that toon, rather than make baseless suppositions. If I tell someone, hey you should try this.... its based on having actually DONE that myself. I may not always be right, and there are ALWAYS better ways of doing things. But its not a random suggestion based on assumptions.

EDIT: And BTW, it does not matter if you are running an epic quest or a casual Korthos quest. You can stop and heal up between fights in any of them. You can slow the pace in (almost) any quest to allow for more efficient use of resourses. So the advice applies across the board. Subject to abilities/gear based on level restrictions of course.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 12:17 PM
Or remove majors from the game (or add cooldown, or whatever), and you've got an even easier solution, and better - imo.


Make bauble and epic ring self OR friend target.
Simple solution ^^

I am afraid we would end up with the same problem we have with people providing pots for healers. Some people don't play blue bar toons. They sell or give away their pots. I don't see people that don't play healers spending the time to farm a bauble or epic ring of spell storing to help out healers...unless it was a social norm to join raids.

Vellrad
09-17-2011, 12:19 PM
I am afraid we would end up with the same problem we have with people providing pots for healers. Some people don't play blue bar toons. They sell or give away their pots. I don't see people that don't play healers spending the time to farm a bauble or epic ring of spell storing to help out healers...unless it was a social norm to join raids.

Eh, epic raid LFM with link ur baubles would teach them :D

Bobthesponge
09-17-2011, 12:20 PM
My healers and other blue bars have stacks of major pots because they are never used. Why should I complain if I have to use a couple when completing high level ELITE and EPIC content? These are supposed to be resource intensive. In some ways I'll be glad to get rid of them - as it is they are just gathering dust.

OP, learn to conserve resources. Learn to manage mana. Have your parties learn effective tactics. Why not stand in the middle of the group with an aura ticking? If you can't take a punch then you shouldn't be in epics - or elite for that matter.

As another Easy Button request, you get a:

/notsigned

varusso
09-17-2011, 12:25 PM
/facepalm

reading skill check: you rolled a 1.

sarcasm check: you rolled a 1.

double fail!

LOL well he is partially right. The problem *IS* lack of communication, but its not **OUR* lack of communication :rolleyes:

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 12:28 PM
Yes, actually, you did. *Wasn't my intent.

You may not have INTENDED that to be the case, but given the tone of your post, it certainly comes across as such. *See above. I was speaking in generalities.

You apparently missed the ENTIRE post, where I laid out several suggestions on how to minimalize your own resource usage AND shift some of the burden onto the rest of the group, making them take some responsibility for themselves as well as the expenses, thus reducing your personal costs. I even flat out said that it was NOT just the healer's responsibility to come prepared with the right resources. *The healer isn't always the party leader. I can't always control who brings what, or what their mindset is when it comes to adding to party resources.

Now, any resources you must spend to make up for lack of group cohesion (which to a large extent DOES fall on the healer) ARE your problem. *Again, I can't always control the group.

If the group wont work together, and you blow your resources trying to just power through it anyway, well thats on you. As the healer, you have the power to make or break any really tough run. If you say stop and gather for a heal, they will do so. *Doesn't apply when the party is on a boss. My healing them is totally dependant on how much damage they are taking and how long the fight takes. Even excellently geared parties are taking much longer to complete raids post u-11

If you go ahead and chase the ones that dont, to try and heal them, they will continue to ignore you. The healer almost always sets the pace of a quest. *See above. It's not a zerging fool that is causing the problems.

And yes I have multiple healing toons. I also have a number of non-healer toons, all of which bring some method of self-sufficiency to the group in order to make the healer's life easier. *Even more reason not to take offense to my post. It's not about you. It's about people who don't do this.

Most of them are bugged on MyDDO. Not that it matters, cos its no one's business what my gear or build is unless I choose to share it. * Fair enough. I guess I will just have to take your word for it. I personally make my toons available for anybody to look at. No secrets here.

I personally try to play every single character type up to 20, so i have some idea of what it is actually like to BE that toon, rather than make baseless suppositions. If I tell someone, hey you should try this.... its based on having actually DONE that myself. I may not always be right, and there are ALWAYS better ways of doing things. But its not a random suggestion based on assumptions. *Again, I will have to take your word for it. Without scrolling through my quest completions, you can see I have multiple Greater Abishai sets, epic this and that, ect... It's not an epeen thing, it's simply that I personally have chosen to do end-game content more than anything else lately. As much as you might think it is...this post isn't challenging you. It is suggesting a way to help out the healers without relying on the goodwill of the party...which I have found to be lacking in pugs, which despite how much better it is to do guild runs, you end up in from time to time.

Answers in red.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 12:31 PM
Eh, epic raid LFM with link ur baubles would teach them :D

Totally

Chai
09-17-2011, 12:37 PM
What we need is Artificer's to get Summon Mana Rod! Haha. cookie for those who get the old eq reference.

/shout Mass KEI in the nexus in 5 minutes!!!

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 12:38 PM
My healers and other blue bars have stacks of major pots because they are never used. Why should I complain if I have to use a couple when completing high level ELITE and EPIC content? These are supposed to be resource intensive. In some ways I'll be glad to get rid of them - as it is they are just gathering dust.

OP, learn to conserve resources. Learn to manage mana. Have your parties learn effective tactics. Why not stand in the middle of the group with an aura ticking? If you can't take a punch then you shouldn't be in epics - or elite for that matter.

As another Easy Button request, you get a:

/notsigned

Ah, not you too, Bob? :(

I am not talking about a couple. Guild runs on LoB taking 8-10 pots? Not talking about just me or my guild. There are numerous healers who can tell you how much more resources are being burned post u11.

Your aura ticking and punching away is fine, it just isn't getting the job done. It helps a bit, don't get me wrong, but the solution isn't a party of 12 Radiant Servant Clerics that are melee builds all standing together and relying on 11 other auras. (Although that would be cool! :D )

Sigh...the "easy button" response. Ok. I will just leave it at saying that I disagree. Easy button is when you could kill end game bosses in seconds. I didn't like that. I acutally like that epics are harder. I just don't like the fact that given the current content and so forth, we are in a situation where the healers are taking the brunt of the change.

People aren't changing their tactics yet, because most of those tactics require complete re-builds. DoT tanks anyone? Relyable ranged combat? Both of those things were somewhat laughable or "flavor builds" before. Suddenly, ranged builds and "DoT tanks" aren't a joke anymore.

Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

varusso
09-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Answers in red.

*The healer isn't always the party leader. I can't always control who brings what, or what their mindset is when it comes to adding to party resources.
*Again, I can't always control the group.


No matter who has the star, the healer sets the pace. This is true almost exclusively. If the healer refuses to rush, the rest of the group will stick to their pace, unless they dont actually need the healer in that quest/group -- which is not the subject of the thread. And if you are in a group of morons who refuse to listen or work together (which is not the same as being your mindless puppets BTW :D ) then the healer can always drop and look for a group with a tad more common sense. It *IS* really the star's responsibility to ensure that things go as smoothly as possible, including matching the group pace to the healer's pace. But as the healer, you have to be willing to speak up and add some direction. Any group worth running with will listen.


*Doesn't apply when the party is on a boss. My healing them is totally dependant on how much damage they are taking and how long the fight takes. Even excellently geared parties are taking much longer to complete raids post u-11

You will know LONG before you get to a boss fight if the party is full of fail or not. Based largely on whether or not they grouped up for heals, topped themselves off when needed, and about 100 or so other little tells. And yes, I know that well-geared groups are struggling with some of the content now. Thats as should be. The folks who have the gear are the ones that are mostly clamoring for more challenge to begin with. The folks who DONT have the gear should be gearing up for the challenge instead of skating along on the coat-tails of those who do. Again, an adjustment of tactics is in order for everyone, which includes dropping down to a more manageable difficulty and working out new strategies, and/or gearing up some more for the new challenge. Adding a higher SP pot wont really change that, other than a 'convenience' of a quicker boost.

varusso
09-17-2011, 12:52 PM
Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

Dont group with those idiots. They completely fail in an actual group dynamic (See: soloing in a group). Its NOT just the healer's problem. It requires a rethinking of the entire situation (yes including new build designs, gear optimization, etc). It requires trying something new (rather like when Epic Ward was dropped and instant-kill wpns were changed). It requires doing some things differently than what we do now, and it requires groups to actually play as groups, meaning they share the burden of resources while we hammer out the new winning strategies.

Easy button -- pfft that is overused as an argument in general. But yes, adding another tier of SP pots *WOULD* significantly decrease challenge -- once we have built up stockpiles like we have of the current pots. Nukers and healers can empty their bars in seconds, then pot back up in short order and do it again -- and again. It would be even worse if they had access to larger pots (and were willing to burn them). And it still wouldnt address the actial problem -- players needing to play smarter now. It would, however, end up with pots getting nerfed -- something i dont want to see, even though I rarely use them -- dropping us right back here again.

Habreno
09-17-2011, 01:11 PM
As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

Bobthesponge
09-17-2011, 02:01 PM
Ah, not you too, Bob? :(

et me, Brutus? but of course!


I am not talking about a couple. Guild runs on LoB taking 8-10 pots? Not talking about just me or my guild. There are numerous healers who can tell you how much more resources are being burned post u11.

my healer - a 28 point relic that was only partially fixed when LR came out and can't be truly fixed until i bother to TR him - has not had any issues post U11. yes, i have had to drink some pots but soon people will learn tactics and adjust. 8-10 pots? not yet, but, once again, what else are the pots for? i haven't had to use pots in ages before this. i remember having to use pots in Shroud when a 3 rounder was common and 4 rouders were wipes unless the healers drank up. but then tactics changed, weapons changed, and healers changed. if i drink a pot in shroud it is only because i accidentally hit it.


Your aura ticking and punching away is fine, it just isn't getting the job done. It helps a bit, don't get me wrong, but the solution isn't a party of 12 Radiant Servant Clerics that are melee builds all standing together and relying on 11 other auras. (Although that would be cool! :D )

Aura is not meant to be a full healer unless you are fighting mobs swinging wet noodles at you, but it mitigates damage so you have to hit your mass cures less often. my cleric - referenced above - has pretty weak melee capabilities because i didn't think about that when building him all those years ago, but he can still turtle up and heal from within a group.


Sigh...the "easy button" response. Ok. I will just leave it at saying that I disagree. Easy button is when you could kill end game bosses in seconds. I didn't like that. I acutally like that epics are harder. I just don't like the fact that given the current content and so forth, we are in a situation where the healers are taking the brunt of the change.

how else would you describe the suggested ability to regen close to all your mana - or at least half - at any time? unlimited mana is an easy button. at least the current pot system means you only get a small percentage at a time back.


People aren't changing their tactics yet, because most of those tactics require complete re-builds. DoT tanks anyone? Relyable ranged combat? Both of those things were somewhat laughable or "flavor builds" before. Suddenly, ranged builds and "DoT tanks" aren't a joke anymore.

early days, my friend. don't hit the panic button just yet and allow the change to happen.


Mechanics and tactics will change. I get it. I am doing it, AAMOF. It's just kind of sad to realize that right now, some attitudes are: "healer's problem...not mine".

that is an issue with the people you play with, not the game.

taurean430
09-17-2011, 02:22 PM
As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

Yes.

And this is why I've deleted my first life divines, and am TR'ing all but two into other classes. I'm already fed up. This week I've burned out my entire stock of mem pots trying to get completions in raids. It is completely unreasonable to expect this out of players. My solution is simple. The two multi TR'd guys I have left will remain for guild healing only. I'm not cool with anything I've seen this last week.

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 02:34 PM
Yes.

And this is why I've deleted my first life divines, and am TR'ing all but two into other classes. I'm already fed up. This week I've burned out my entire stock of mem pots trying to get completions in raids. It is completely unreasonable to expect this out of players. My solution is simple. The two multi TR'd guys I have left will remain for guild healing only. I'm not cool with anything I've seen this last week.


As a capped Divine, I have done quite a few things that most don't:

Duo-heal Elite VoD without pots... twice.
Duo-heal Hard ToD, with Summolades... without pots... as my second run in the raid EVER.
Solo-healed Normal VoD... twice... with 1k sp left over each time.
Solo-healed end Abishai fight in EChrono... without pots or a DDoor.

Of course, this was pre u11. But given that kind of power and knowledge about the class to pull off some of those feats- especially the end Abishai fight in EChrono solo-heal- I should be able to complete this content, which is harder now due to the U11 buff, without pots. Problem is I'm not... because there's no way to do it. Even with a bauble and ROSS, I'd still need pots- and I have neither of them (and still did the above list) but really should have the Bauble...

From the point of a divine, U11 really screwed us over. We are given more work to do and no thanks from groups for it. And your "Nice heals" over party chat isn't the kind of thanks I talk about. Should content be challenging? Yes. Should it be IMPOSSIBLE without memonics? No-and that's where it's at now. Just another ploy to get more money out of divines- force them to buy pots to complete quests...

This is what I am saying is happening. I am not trying to call out the people for their opinions on this topic if it is different than mine. I actually appreciate the fact that there is discussion, and conversation. The bottom line is that it appears that there are people who play primarily divine classes that aren't digging what is going on with resource depletion. There are people who may have divines and other classes that may not agree with changing the drop rate of mnemonic pots, or creating larger ones to compensate for resource loss...but at least there is some concensus that the healers very well may be taking a beating post u11 and there needs to be SOME sort of way to mitigate it.

Call me cynical, but I don't totally believe in goodwill to get pots replaced. I am in a VERY solid guild, and I can choose to only run with them and eliminate the majority of my frustration. My guild raids a lot, but life and times and all of that can never really make it so you never pug. It just seems sad to me that I don't feel the same way about logging on, joining random EChrono pug and not stressing that it is going to take a huge chunk out of my inventory.

The difference now vs then is:

Before: Group fails. Wipe. I wasted 30 minutes.

Now: Group fails. Wipe. I wasted an hour and 5 pots.

katz
09-17-2011, 02:40 PM
/shout Mass KEI in the nexus in 5 minutes!!!

SOW PLZ! gotta get to nexus in time for some crack! err i mean KEI :p

grodon9999
09-17-2011, 03:03 PM
Or remove majors from the game (or add cooldown, or whatever), and you've got an even easier solution, and better - imo.

Yes, give them a 1 minute cooldown on normal/hard, 90 seconds on elite and 2 minutes on epic. Balance content around that. SP pots as they are now are the single most game-breaking item in DDO, especially since they can be bought for cash

Seamonkeysix
09-17-2011, 03:11 PM
Yes, give them a 1 minute cooldown on normal/hard, 90 seconds on elite and 2 minutes on epic. Balance content around that. SP pots as they are now are the single most game-breaking item in DDO, especially since they can be bought for cash

Yes...do that, and I will stop complaining! ;):D:p