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View Full Version : Bladesworn Transformation remove....



eulogy098
09-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Bladesworn transformation is unusable as it stands, for Paladins, Clerics and Favored Souls alike. Players should want to use it every time the cooldown is up, should the proper moment occur, just like other Faith enhancements. I have literally not used the spell one time in the past month. Think about that.

Solution is simple.


Remove the Healing immunity granted with the buff. The divines would still be silenced and unable to self heal. This (along with the HUGE cooldown and inability to reset with shrines) is a monstrous enough of a penalty.

Gorbadoc
09-15-2011, 11:19 AM
I feel like this has come up before.

One response is to note how powerful the Lord of Blades enhancements are generally, as compared with the other religions. There's merit to this idea: Bladesworn Transformation doesn't need to be particularly good, at least not to justify picking Lord of Blades.

That argument misses one point, though: There shouldn't be pointless abilities in the game. I'm all in favor of abilities that give you X but take away Y (Pale Master Undead Forms come to mind), but here we're talking about the ability defeating itself. You become more potent in melee, but the caveat is that you become (essentially) incapable of engaging in melee.

There is an obscure exception (that will be less obscure as artificers become common): If you have someone who can repair you. I don't like this. It should be possible to get some use out of the ability no matter your party composition.

I suggest that the ability still work with standard healing, but that it work better with repairing. Let healing magic restore the normal hit points. BUT make it so that a normal healing spell temporarily slashes the bonuses. For eight seconds after being hit by a healing spell, that +4 str and +4 damage gets countered by a -8 and -8 penalty for a net -4 and -4. You can be healed, but if you're getting healed all the time, you're no better off than you were before you activated Bladesworn Transformation. Call the penalty a morale penalty: You're demoralized at having to accept fleshie healing while trying to tap into the power of the Lord of Blades.

Jay203
09-15-2011, 11:54 AM
I suggest that the ability still work with standard healing, but that it work better with repairing. Let healing magic restore the normal hit points. BUT make it so that a normal healing spell temporarily slashes the bonuses. For eight seconds after being hit by a healing spell, that +4 str and +4 damage gets countered by a -8 and -8 penalty for a net -4 and -4. You can be healed, but if you're getting healed all the time, you're no better off than you were before you activated Bladesworn Transformation. Call the penalty a morale penalty: You're demoralized at having to accept fleshie healing while trying to tap into the power of the Lord of Blades.

I'm sorry, but that idea is just plain out silly
bladesworn is the only faith line that carries a penalty for using it and it's stupid
not to mention the bonus bestowed from it gets copied by cookies >_>
making it so that using has a chance for you to end up worse than if you haven't activate it is just stupid. don't forget at higher contents, mass heals gets thrown quite often, which means you're going to be debuffed more often than actually getting benefits...

if they're so set on keeping the penalty, they need to change the bonus bestowed by the transformation so it's different from every other source in game
that includes the +4 ac. and they also need to add in +con into it as well as granting temporary Dr/- to offset the inability to cast spells and immunity to healing

Seikojin
09-15-2011, 12:03 PM
Here is how it should be (seen soo many threads on this):

+4 stacking bonus to stat and AC. Add some hate gen. Cannot cast (for the spell), cannot be healed by spells (the way it is now for pallys). End of story.

This way it has a use. It will give casters some melee buffing potential.

For pallys, I think it should just have a smaller cooldown timer. Pallys can still self heal while in that mode. So it is not useless for pallys except for the really long cooldown. They could tie it into smites/turn undeads.

Personally, I would like it to be something like that. And you could tier buff it so at first it is +2, then +4, then +6/8.

eulogy098
09-15-2011, 05:07 PM
it could be debated that the ability needs other changes for the sake of making it of equal value to other faith enhancements, but for the time being a simple quick fix would be to remove the healing immunity.

I generally make suggestions that would appear to be simple for the sake of making them more likely to happen in the very near future, rather then "soon™".

Aesop
09-15-2011, 05:20 PM
So instead of healing Immunity make it apply a 25% Healing Penalty... or additional penalty as it were.

Aesop

Aesop
09-15-2011, 05:27 PM
Heck do a full change up.

+4 Profane Bonus to Strength
+4 Profane Bonus to AC
DR 15/good
+25% Profane Bonus to Fortification



No spell Casting

-50% Positive Energy Healing

Aesop

Seikojin
09-15-2011, 05:31 PM
Here is how it should be (seen soo many threads on this):

+4 stacking bonus to stat and AC. Add some hate gen. Cannot cast (for the spell), cannot be healed by spells (the way it is now for pallys). End of story.

This way it has a use. It will give casters some melee buffing potential.

For pallys, I think it should just have a smaller cooldown timer. Pallys can still self heal while in that mode. So it is not useless for pallys except for the really long cooldown. They could tie it into smites/turn undeads.

Personally, I would like it to be something like that. And you could tier buff it so at first it is +2, then +4, then +6/8.

Bolded the important, immediate solution.

As it would be, the ability would become stackable as a spell. Propegate the importance of that.

For the enhancement line... I think making its cooldown less or tying it to smites/turns is the winnar there. The lack of healing is nothing. The pally can heal themselves when they are hurting. The idea is to become a warmachine. Warmachines do not heal.

fyrst.grok
09-15-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm sorry, but that idea is just plain out silly
bladesworn is the only faith line that carries a penalty for using it and it's stupid
not to mention the bonus bestowed from it gets copied by cookies >_>
making it so that using has a chance for you to end up worse than if you haven't activate it is just stupid. don't forget at higher contents, mass heals gets thrown quite often, which means you're going to be debuffed more often than actually getting benefits...

if they're so set on keeping the penalty, they need to change the bonus bestowed by the transformation so it's different from every other source in game
that includes the +4 ac. and they also need to add in +con into it as well as granting temporary Dr/- to offset the inability to cast spells and immunity to healing

/agreed


Here is how it should be (seen soo many threads on this):

+4 stacking bonus to stat and AC. Add some hate gen. Cannot cast (for the spell), cannot be healed by spells (the way it is now for pallys). End of story.

This way it has a use. It will give casters some melee buffing potential.

For pallys, I think it should just have a smaller cooldown timer. Pallys can still self heal while in that mode. So it is not useless for pallys except for the really long cooldown. They could tie it into smites/turn undeads.

Personally, I would like it to be something like that. And you could tier buff it so at first it is +2, then +4, then +6/8.


Bolded the important, immediate solution.

As it would be, the ability would become stackable as a spell. Propegate the importance of that.

For the enhancement line... I think making its cooldown less or tying it to smites/turns is the winnar there. The lack of healing is nothing. The pally can heal themselves when they are hurting. The idea is to become a warmachine. Warmachines do not heal.

No.. That would only make it viable to use for paladins to some extend, but the enhancement is a REQUIREMENT for fvs if they want the prestige.. This would be even worse than the useless ability it is now!

The easiest solution would be to add Cannith repair pots like silver flame pots or remove the immunity to healing or add a huge repair amplification so repair serious would work better. Make it a toggle like PM form.. More DR/adamantine.. Change capstone on fvs to repair light (pallys can still LoH).. Lot's of ideas..
Besides that the profane bonus does not make any sense to me.. The Lord of Blades is evil yes, but he's not a planar creature.

Gorbadoc
09-16-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm sorry, but that idea is just plain out silly
bladesworn is the only faith line that carries a penalty for using it and it's stupid
not to mention the bonus bestowed from it gets copied by cookies >_>
making it so that using has a chance for you to end up worse than if you haven't activate it is just stupid. don't forget at higher contents, mass heals gets thrown quite often, which means you're going to be debuffed more often than actually getting benefits...

I'm just not seeing the connection you're trying to make. None of the points you list seems to support the idea that a penalty on BT is stupid.

Other useful abilities carry penalties without being stupid (PM undead forms; monk stances).

Many useful abilities are copied by cookies.

*I* am not going to be debuffed more than *I* actually get benefits, because I'll take the time to figure out tactics that won't get me bombarded with continual cure spells. And that's the beauty of these advantage/disadvantage abilities: The ability isn't just numbers; it's a tactical decision.


I can think of other problems with my idea: they mostly center around the ideas that warforged are already powerful, and that if Turbine is going to add cool new coded religion abilities, they should revisit the less powerful religions first. There's nothing inherently wrong with a penalty on an ability, though. The current problem with BT is that the penalty it carries defeats the point of the ability in most situations.

Shade
09-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Now:
+4 Profane bonus to Strength, +4 natural armor to AC, +4 profane bonus to damage, +10 enhancement bonus to Will saves against mind affecting magic, simple weapon proficiency feat, martial weapon proficiency feat, your base attack bonus equals your level, immunity to critical hits, and immunity to sneak attacks. However you are unable to cast spells and cannot be healed by healing spells. You can however be repaired by others, drink repair potions, use Turn Undead and turn alternatives such as divine healing. Lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per Cleric/Paladin/Favored Soul level, and 10 minutes cooldown.

I'd change too:
+4 Divine bonus to Strength, +4 natural armor to AC, +4 Divine bonus to damage,
+1 threat range with greatswords, +10% threat generation
+10 enhancement bonus to Will saves against mind affecting magic,
simple weapon proficiency feat, martial weapon proficiency feat,
your base attack bonus equals your level,
+100% fortification
However you are unable to cast spells
-95% healing amp (You can still be healed, but only if youd base healing amp is over 95% to start with, so if it's 150% base, you can get 55% healing)
+10% Repair amp
Can use Lay on Hands, Turn Undead and turn alternatives such as divine healing.
Lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per Cleric/Paladin/Favored Soul level, can be extended and quickened.
10 minutes cooldown.

Would be great for paladin tanks with high amp to start with. Even ones with full abishai sets. Favored souls and clerics could still use it sparingly if they work hard enough to have high amp so they could still get some small healing in emergencies. And ideal for parties where someone could repair you.

Jay203
09-16-2011, 11:20 AM
I'm just not seeing the connection you're trying to make. None of the points you list seems to support the idea that a penalty on BT is stupid.

Other useful abilities carry penalties without being stupid (PM undead forms; monk stances).

Many useful abilities are copied by cookies.

*I* am not going to be debuffed more than *I* actually get benefits, because I'll take the time to figure out tactics that won't get me bombarded with continual cure spells. And that's the beauty of these advantage/disadvantage abilities: The ability isn't just numbers; it's a tactical decision.


I can think of other problems with my idea: they mostly center around the ideas that warforged are already powerful, and that if Turbine is going to add cool new coded religion abilities, they should revisit the less powerful religions first. There's nothing inherently wrong with a penalty on an ability, though. The current problem with BT is that the penalty it carries defeats the point of the ability in most situations.

yes, because you can somehow pick and choose when the healers throw those mass cures out in a big dog fight
because you know exactly when to get out of the fight to avoid being hit by ANY cure spells
because you are going to take improve fortification to nullify all divine cures
because you are vastly more superior than every other players in game that you can decide everything without factoring all the freewill of the other players

do humor me, how exactly do you plan on using the transformation you suggested in a raiding situation? in a fight with multiple melees?
oh the enlightened one, do tell us how you plan on avoiding being cured by the healers, being accidentally hit by a mass cure and then taking stupid penalty, resulting in more severe damage creating a panic by healer to spot heal you and prolonging your penalty

don't get me wrong, i'm all for a give and take mechanic, but some of the penalties in game are just ridiculously ********

Jay203
09-16-2011, 11:22 AM
-95% healing amp (You can still be healed, but only if youd base healing amp is over 95% to start with, so if it's 150% base, you can get 55% healing)


i wonder if you get enough penalty to healing amp do you get damaged from healing :D:D:D:D

LordPiglet
09-16-2011, 11:25 AM
/agreed





No.. That would only make it viable to use for paladins to some extend, but the enhancement is a REQUIREMENT for fvs if they want the prestige.. This would be even worse than the useless ability it is now!

The easiest solution would be to add Cannith repair pots like silver flame pots or remove the immunity to healing or add a huge repair amplification so repair serious would work better. Make it a toggle like PM form.. More DR/adamantine.. Change capstone on fvs to repair light (pallys can still LoH).. Lot's of ideas..
Besides that the profane bonus does not make any sense to me.. The Lord of Blades is evil yes, but he's not a planar creature.

Only a requirement for FvS if they want tier 2. And a melee WF LoB builds is probably better off skipping tier 2 and using the points saved in other areas. Personally, I've ran both with tier 2 and without tier 2. I prefer just going tier 1 and have the saved AP's (especially since as you note Bladesworn is a waste to take on a FvS).

Gorbadoc
09-16-2011, 03:05 PM
yes, because you can somehow pick and choose when the healers throw those mass cures out in a big dog fight
because you know exactly when to get out of the fight to avoid being hit by ANY cure spells
because you are going to take improve fortification to nullify all divine cures
because you are vastly more superior than every other players in game that you can decide everything without factoring all the freewill of the other players

do humor me, how exactly do you plan on using the transformation you suggested in a raiding situation? in a fight with multiple melees?
oh the enlightened one, do tell us how you plan on avoiding being cured by the healers, being accidentally hit by a mass cure and then taking stupid penalty, resulting in more severe damage creating a panic by healer to spot heal you and prolonging your penalty

don't get me wrong, i'm all for a give and take mechanic, but some of the penalties in game are just ridiculously ********

Rather than argue, I suggest you think the matter through. If you had an ability as I described it, would you be able to make use of it? If you're actually giving the idea a chance, the answer should be either "Yes" or "Ehh, maybe if the penalties were a bit smaller".

At that point, I think we agree: some kind of penalty makes sense. I'd love to hear ideas for other (hopefully better) penalties-- change the duration, change the magnitude, or suggest another mechanic altogether. I'm not finding your sarcasm helpful, though.

bigolbear
09-16-2011, 03:36 PM
its far from pointless, it is however designed with static groups in mind and is an excelent choice in the right situation - specificaly if you KNOW there is going to be someone around to repair you and your primary role is mele dps/buffing rather than as healer.

This is true of a fair bunch of enhancements/feats. A static group running all warforge is both set up and played differently to normal play. divines tend to fall into a buff/mele role, and healing is taken up by arcanes. If anything id like to see it changed to a shroud type effect - always on or always off - big cost and cooldown.

Its only pointless in regular pugging mentality, like many abilities in ddo.

i mean, when was the last time a lord of blades cleric used his turning attempts to grant greatsword proficiency to his allies in a pug? these abilites are their to allow thematic static groups to take advantage of their group principles, not designed for regular pug play.

the reason their enhancements is because that way you dont HAVE to buy them if you dont play that way.

Jay203
09-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Rather than argue, I suggest you think the matter through. If you had an ability as I described it, would you be able to make use of it? If you're actually giving the idea a chance, the answer should be either "Yes" or "Ehh, maybe if the penalties were a bit smaller".

At that point, I think we agree: some kind of penalty makes sense. I'd love to hear ideas for other (hopefully better) penalties-- change the duration, change the magnitude, or suggest another mechanic altogether. I'm not finding your sarcasm helpful, though.

if the bladesworn is changed to as you suggested, i know i won't even think about picking that **** up. it would literally become so bad that any other faith line is better (yes, even silver flame)

while i do believe in tradeoff for powerful abilities, bladesworn is not powerful enough for any penalty as of right now
extreme cooldown already makes its uses extremely limited, it's not extendable, nor does it last long enough to matter much.
if the ability is changed to +4 stacking str, con, dex, damage, and ac, +10 to will saves, BaB= to your lvl, and full weapon prof., than the current penalty of no spell casting and no positive healing would make sense

fyrst.grok
09-16-2011, 06:43 PM
Only a requirement for FvS if they want tier 2. And a melee WF LoB builds is probably better off skipping tier 2 and using the points saved in other areas. Personally, I've ran both with tier 2 and without tier 2. I prefer just going tier 1 and have the saved AP's (especially since as you note Bladesworn is a waste to take on a FvS).

Well - I find it pretty usefull for soloing and it's 40ish dps, which closes the melee gap a bit, so I'm not a wasted spot when I'm not grouping as main healer.. Anyway it WILL be a requirement for the Divine Avenger when they launch that according to eladrins old post, so it should still be fixed in one way or the other.

eulogy098
02-13-2012, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Shade;4074399]

I'd change too:
+4 Divine bonus to Strength, +4 natural armor to AC, +4 Divine bonus to damage,
+1 threat range with greatswords, +10% threat generation
+10 enhancement bonus to Will saves against mind affecting magic,
simple weapon proficiency feat, martial weapon proficiency feat,
your base attack bonus equals your level,
+100% fortification
However you are unable to cast spells
-95% healing amp (You can still be healed, but only if youd base healing amp is over 95% to start with, so if it's 150% base, you can get 55% healing)
+10% Repair amp
Can use Lay on Hands, Turn Undead and turn alternatives such as divine healing.
Lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per Cleric/Paladin/Favored Soul level, can be extended and quickened.
10 minutes cooldown.
QUOTE]

Great ideas, but it's overly complicated and turbine tends to be lazy when it comes to such things. I suggested what i did simply because I had hoped that it was an easy enough change that it could have been done immedietely so that the ability wouldnt go another year without being used. by anyone. ever.

Turns out that didnt work. So i endorse your layout.

Gum
02-14-2012, 03:13 PM
Yeah removing that hjealing immunity is LONG overdue in my book. It's like this really awesome Warforged pride buff that every Bladesworn should be using every time the dang timer is up but instead we just look at it and shake our heads in disbelief.