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The_Brave2
09-10-2011, 01:05 AM
It's been brought up before, but they need a revamp. I will go over some of the things that I personally see wrong with them at the moment. Each suggestion is prefaced with a small bit of context with my suggestion afterwards in green.

1) Rewards.

You complete an epic quest, and return to the quest giver... and what do you get? either some random loot gen normal quest level loot, or normal quest level named items.
--Obviously this needs to be changed and the reward should reflect the quest level, at least some lv.18-20 random loot gen items.

Additional Change Suggested: 10% chance to drop BTA scroll in end reward.


2) Epic Tokens

Upon completing Epic quests you receive an amount of tokens based on the difficulty of the quest (or how difficult it is supposed-to be). These tokens are then used for a variety of things, Augments, creation of some epic items, true hearts of wood... one of the problems with this is the Augment Crystals we currently have to work with.
--Include a larger variety of Augment Crystals that we can slot, make slots like Yellow and Colorless more Valuable. Some things that I would like to see are:
30% Striding (Yellow or Colorless)
*Lifeshield (Yellow or Colorless)
*Sup pot VI (Yellow or Colorless)
*Clickies for items that have none - Haste/Displace/GH/Elemental/Heal Exc. (Blue)
*Effect that increases the amount of clickies on an epic item Ex. Epic Gogs of Time sensing would increase from 5 clicks to 6 or 7 (yellow or colorless)
*Deathblock (Blue)


3) Insta-Death Spells

Currently Insta-Death Spells are slightly overpowered for epics, they make them trivial for any group with an experienced caster. Orange Names are mini bosses that currently are affected by CC spells but are immune to insta-death and have higher HP and usually resistances.
-More Orange Name'd mobs. Create a quest atmosphere where a caster can contribute to the group though insta-death effects while not completely dominating it. This can be done though adding more Orange names throughout the quest, or simply changing a few mobs in each group to orange name status.


4) SP Potion's

Currently chugging SP pots is a problem in epic quests and raids alike, they allow casting classes to have unlimited SP if they have enough outside resources.
--Create a short yet effective timer on SP pots, 15 Seconds. This would allow for SP pots to still be used as an 'oh ****' button, while not completely trivializing their use. This is not an issue for many casters currently, but as content gets harder (hopefully) SP pots will become an easy button that cannot be ignored.

5) Scrolls

Scrolls are currently used for crafting items with a seal and a shard of that item into its epic form. They drop at roughly 1% currently off of any mob in most epic quests. Scroll farming has become an issue for some, as it has become far to easy for a caster to solo farm scrolls.
--I do not see an inherit problem with Casters scroll farming, however I believe that scrolls should be more easily attainable though grouping daily with a party of 6 running though an epic. I suggest that the % drop chance of scrolls be upped per group member by .8% so that in a group of 6 you would have a static (1+(.8*5))= 5% chance of a scroll drop. This would keep scroll farming a valid option for getting scrolls/money but would also increase the desirability for the scroll farmers to simply run the quest in hopes of getting the scroll they want, while also giving players that do not have the ability to scroll farm a noticeable chance at the scroll they need. Solo scroll farming would still be preferable compared to taking more members with you, as it shouldn't be rewarded to kill mobs faster with a larger group to scroll farm, but should rewarded for groups completing the quest.

An idea suggested in this thread: Optional's chests should award a chance at a scroll, something low like 5-8% at scrolls makes sense (this would be affected by how many people are currently in the quest at the time the optional was started) This is not a perfect system as a scroll farmer could grab some pikers and farm the easy optional chest, so I would like some solution to fix this. This does however add some motive for parties to do that optional that is often over looked in many epics.



Just a couple suggestions related to epic quests, I believe that most of these suggestions remain balanced and would be accepted well into the DDO community.. What do you think?

sirgog
09-10-2011, 02:03 AM
More things:

Energy Drain: Currently, this drops the HP of orange-named mobs by too much. Far too much. Especially on very-high HP orange nameds, such as the Messenger of Praries in Epic Small Problem.

Scrolls: IMO, these should drop in optional chests as well. Every pack has significant optionals that are seldom run - some of these could drop scrolls too. (Some of these optionals include Inkataros in Partycrashers, the whole Spies in the House quest, the 'kill all four orange nameds in the wrong glyph room' optional in DQ1, which doesn't offer a chest at the moment, the 'kill 7 Abashai' in eChrono, etc).
I'd be fine with a 1 in 200 drop rate from mobs, and a decent chance to get (unbound) scrolls in chests.

Player AC: There's a whole other thread devoted to this.

Player movement and monster attack physics misses: Monsters need ways to debuff our speed. Pre U9, I did a test and soloed up to the shrine in eVON1 using almost nothing but Evocation Archmage SLAs, and took no damage at all in the experiment. Something is very wrong there. Careful kiting by players prevents mobs swinging at you at all.

Eso
09-10-2011, 03:03 AM
more nerf treaths??? no tx,give a melee stamina maybe? caster " stamina " is determinated with SP bar...melee should have a gray color bar who determine stamine? nerf casters always,why not nerf melees?

*waiting shade replys hahaha*

/not signed. we dont need more nerfs or something like that (enough with fvs wings),all we need is decent drop rates and upgrades to epic weapons (the grind is too much for nothing most of the times)

oradafu
09-10-2011, 03:43 AM
I agree with most of the suggestions.

End Rewards need a boost, minimum level 18-20 items sounds good although I'd be satisfied with level 16+ items.

More Augment Crystal please. I've seen several suggested in multiple threads that seem decent enough. I personally would like to see Deathblock as a choice, since my current DB item is the Mabar Cloak and people throw a fit about the cloak causing lag, especially in DQ2 but not exclusively there. I also like the idea in the OP to give additional clicky uses to an item.

Although Casters/FvS currently rule Epic (and all other) content, I'm not sure I want to see the SP pot and Instant Spell nerfs that are suggested in the OP. At least not yet. I'd like to see how the new changes with fort, death penalty, etc shake out before more tweaks against players are made. However, since Instant Death spells just steamroll over content, I would like to see some adjustment to Vorpal weapons. Personally, I never found Vorpal weapons as useful as people on the forums claim...but the current state for Vorpal weapons is just pitiful. If nothing else, Vorpal needs Maiming damage on every hit. (It's not much but better than its current condition.)

Scrolls should have some conditions that increase their drop rate. Chances to drop in optional chests seems like a good idea. It ties into the whole risk/reward situation. Why go to the optionals and risk a wipe if there is no special reward? Why run Shroud on Hard or Elite if the rewards are exactly the same as Normal?

....And a suggestion I have that could tie into the higher scroll drop rate would be with Orange, Red and Purple named mobs... What if the drop rate of scrolls were higher with these mobs? Also what if the Treasure Bags that these mobs drop contained a higher number of Epic Token Fragments? Perhaps between 2 to 15 fragments. This would give another incentive to run Optionals in certain quests that are usually ignored.

janave
09-10-2011, 06:05 AM
Very good suggestions.

Scrolls should indeed be available in chests with a small % drop rate. This would lessen the cruel grind to get the specific (usually few) scrolls one needs to feel rewarded.

Once again, really neat list of suggestions.

Ralmeth
09-10-2011, 10:41 AM
My suggestions would be:
1) As casters can instant kill trash mobs, vorpal weapons should be able to insta-kill trash mobs (non boss) just as well.
2) Make AC viable in Epics.

mwgarn
09-10-2011, 11:11 AM
AC and vorples sound like a good idea to me too.

Matuse
09-10-2011, 12:39 PM
1) Rewards.

You complete an epic quest, and return to the quest giver... and what do you get? either some random loot gen normal quest level loot, or normal quest level named items.
--

Obviously this needs to be changed and the reward should reflect the quest level, at least some lv.18-20 random loot gen items.

As always, quest givers neither know nor care what difficulty you ran a quest at.

The_Brave2
09-10-2011, 12:43 PM
I like the idea of optionals being able to drop scrolls, however there are many epics with opts that are really a part of the quest, so the % chance would have to be very low in order to stop farmers just repeating those. I suppose the same thing along the line of the 5% chance for a full party for the chest would make sense.

However, I have thought about vorpal weapons, currently they are far to easy to get... Vorpal weapons being able to kill trash mobs on a 20 doesn't seem like a good idea. Epic weapons should be able to kill a monster faster than some low ML item that has a Vorpal effect.


I would suggest making vorpal work on epic items with that effect, with the old 20 decapitate and an additional damage per hit once the mob is below a certain HP. I don't think that a party full of lv.20's should be able to pick up a low ML vorp weapon and have it be the king of epic trash dps. Along with this a Vorpal, Improved Vorpal, and Greater Vorpal effect could be implemented for random loot gen weapons, each one allowing the vorpal effect to hit creatures with more HP.



Player movement and monster attack physics misses: Monsters need ways to debuff our speed. Pre U9, I did a test and soloed up to the shrine in eVON1 using almost nothing but Evocation Archmage SLAs, and took no damage at all in the experiment. Something is very wrong there. Careful kiting by players prevents mobs swinging at you at all.

Well, actually.... I don't see a problem with being able to kite mobs around if you take your time and are careful with it. I don't like the idea of slowing my character down in epics, I am all about the speed. A change like this would make the entire quest move slower which would detract from my enjoyment of the epic even if I was with an entire party.


More Augment Crystal please. I've seen several suggested in multiple threads that seem decent enough. I personally would like to see Deathblock as a choice, since my current DB item is the Mabar Cloak and people throw a fit about the cloak causing lag, especially in DQ2 but not exclusively there. I also like the idea in the OP to give additional clicky uses to an item.

I agree, DB would be a very nice addition to the list. However, it seems a tad too good for a yellow or colorless slot. I'll add it in as a blue.


Although Casters/FvS currently rule Epic (and all other) content, I'm not sure I want to see the SP pot and Instant Spell nerfs that are suggested in the OP.

The insta-death suggestion would not be a huge nerf if implemented correctly. Im am in no way suggesting that there be full parts of dungeons with orange name mobs, just a few more scattered though the quest. Imo about every 1/8 should be an Orange name. Casters still get to have fun on the 7 and the mele's actually have to do something when they have an experienced caster in the group. :D

The SP pot change is not something I am completely hard-set on tbh. I tend to sway back and fourth on that one. However, I do think that SP pots become an easy button to compensate for a otherwise terrible group that should not complete the quest. A 15 second timer allows people to still use them if they think the quest is going south while stopping the spam chugging that is a compensation for a bad group.


Energy Drain: Currently, this drops the HP of orange-named mobs by too much. Far too much. Especially on very-high HP orange nameds, such as the Messenger of Praries in Epic Small Problem.

I agree, however I do not see an easy fix for this. Changing the neg level effect for orange named would drastically increase the difficulty of that mob for spell DC's. If the orange name suggestion I have for epics was implemented than it would be a huge difficulty increase.


I would Suggest changing some of the orange name mobs in dungeons such as that into red name status mobs, or giving partial immunity to neg levels to orange names. The Partial immunity would allow for 1/2 of the levels drained to effect them.


As always, quest givers neither know nor care what difficulty you ran a quest at.

Well, after completing something like eDA and getting some ML.. 6? junk loot... something needs to be done about it. The quest giver Should care about what difficulty you complete the quest on.


As for AC... yea im not going to get into that on this thread... I know far too little about it and there are already a bunch of threads with suggestions for that :D

voodoogroves
09-10-2011, 12:47 PM
I'd like epics to be "better" but I'd rather have time spent on NEW content rather than trying to muck with old content. That said, I'm a fan of simple things.

- I'm ok with no change to end rewards. Quest giver doesn't know what you ran it on, and that sounds like a chunk of work to change.

- Totally fine and support new epic slot options. I do think, however, that you're kinda being too generous. Life Shield I wouldn't put anywhere but a blue slot, etc. I'm game for adding all sorts of stuff to the slots ... with a chunk of cost though but also with more restrictions than a colorless or yellow for the big items.

- Fine with more yellow named. Fine with more mobs interspersed with high SR. Fine with some given big resistances. I've had tons of pots where I advocate for more variety to enable different styles. Like I said up front though - I don't want them to spend a ton of time making existing content different. Make me a new quest instead and keep whatever changes they do to quick ones that provide small tweaks.

sheepface
09-10-2011, 12:50 PM
I was with you till you got to the part on scrolls.

The_Brave2
09-10-2011, 12:55 PM
I was with you till you got to the part on scrolls.

That is one of the more controversial ones. Could you explain your problem with it? It doesn't hurt scroll farmers except for actually allow people who cannot scroll farm a chance at one. Sure the price on scrolls would drop, but why is that a bad thing? Scroll farming is a huge gold mine for casters atm while leaving mele's in the dark. You shouldn't have to have a caster to have a decent chance at actually getting a scroll.


I'd like epics to be "better" but I'd rather have time spent on NEW content rather than trying to muck with old content. That said, I'm a fan of simple things.


Actually, I partially agree with you. I would love for them to spend more time to make more content and some new PRE's/races exc. However, the thing that is holding Turbine back currently (to my knowledge) is that they do not know if the current epic system is how they want to implement it. I want to see more epic quests implemented, and the only way I can see that happening is if they are somewhat balanced.

If that is not the case, than releasing new epic content with changes to make it balanced would have to come with a huge gear increase that would be unbalanced since the new epics would be much more difficult. I agree that new items should be better than the old ones.. not by much... but still an improvement. But if content is released that is much more difficult than the current epic content than there will be too much of a difference between them... I would rather see an epic overhaul that changes all of them for the better.

sirgog
09-10-2011, 07:27 PM
Oh and on Energy Drain - just change negative levels on mobs to always inflict a -3% penalty to maximum hitpoints. This would be a minor nerf to the spell in non-epic content (but really, it's almost solely used in that content as a prelude to a death spell or long-lasting CC spell so it won't really matter), but it will stop the insanity of cutting out 3000+ hp with a single spell.

Against, say, trolls (who have awful Reflex saves but solid Fortitude saves), a medium-DC Circle of Death is extremely powerful for the mass Enervation effect, even if it kills nothing.

Focused fire from casters neg-levelling minibosses into oblivion will remain a problem - this is my preferred tactic for the end fight of Epic Small Problem among other quests. It really trivialises that final fight, as 5-6 Energy Drains will kill each of the Messengers other than Pits outright.

The_Brave2
09-10-2011, 07:37 PM
Oh and on Energy Drain - just change negative levels on mobs to always inflict a -3% penalty to maximum hitpoints. This would be a minor nerf to the spell in non-epic content (but really, it's almost solely used in that content as a prelude to a death spell or long-lasting CC spell so it won't really matter), but it will stop the insanity of cutting out 3000+ hp with a single spell.

Against, say, trolls (who have awful Reflex saves but solid Fortitude saves), a medium-DC Circle of Death is extremely powerful for the mass Enervation effect, even if it kills nothing.

Focused fire from casters neg-levelling minibosses into oblivion will remain a problem - this is my preferred tactic for the end fight of Epic Small Problem among other quests. It really trivialises that final fight, as 5-6 Energy Drains will kill each of the Messengers other than Pits outright.

I think it would be very difficult to make Energy drain still remove levels and not remove as much hp. As hp is affected based on how many levels the mob has. Personally I think it would be quite difficult to code in any way.

If it could be done? Sure, sounds good.
If it cant? Id rather have them change it for 1/2 the neg level effect or change the way those mob's hp is calculated. Giving them high base HP instead of having it be so level dependent.

janave
09-11-2011, 01:06 AM
Oh and on Energy Drain - just change negative levels on mobs to always inflict a -3% penalty to maximum hitpoints. This would be a minor nerf to the spell in non-epic content (but really, it's almost solely used in that content as a prelude to a death spell or long-lasting CC spell so it won't really matter), but it will stop the insanity of cutting out 3000+ hp with a single spell.

Against, say, trolls (who have awful Reflex saves but solid Fortitude saves), a medium-DC Circle of Death is extremely powerful for the mass Enervation effect, even if it kills nothing.

Focused fire from casters neg-levelling minibosses into oblivion will remain a problem - this is my preferred tactic for the end fight of Epic Small Problem among other quests. It really trivialises that final fight, as 5-6 Energy Drains will kill each of the Messengers other than Pits outright.

I dont say it is fully justified, but you still need:

* huge amounts of sp (probably outside resources, esp if you had to fight evey mob this way till the endfight)
* either strategy or mad player skill (for 99% success)

I may be wrong, but I think the drain timer is also shorter on epic mobs, which should make stacking negs on them more difficult. I havent tried to neg them to nihilness though, and i only carry the lvl9 drain.

Unreliable
09-11-2011, 01:26 AM
Mana pots - yes I agree they are powerfull, but if a caster feels like they need to chug a billion sp pots in order to complete any epic in this game, then they are doing something wrong and wasting their plat or TP. Let them waste it, as a player who is chugging a billion pots is not skilled, and is not learning how to run epics properly... Any epic can easily be done without SP pots and most epics can be completed with a ton of spare SP before the next shrine.

Scrolls - Sorry, but your suggestion would just make it so casters can solo farm and duel box, tri-box, and bring in a ton of multi accounts for better scroll drops. I think the best idea would be to just include them in chests and end rewards, or make them exclusive to boss fights... (like the eChrono bosses... first 2 bosses 50% each for a scroll drop... 100% chance for final boss for avg of 2 scrolls per run... or whatever, the odds can be ajusted to keep scrolls rare and desirable still)

Tokens - eh, I like the token system atm. I think except for a few epics the amount of tokens aquired is fine for the work and time involved. Sure you could add in a few more options, but meh.

End reward lists - Yeah would be cool if we got some better end reward lists - right now the system just dosent work and it would be neat if end rewards dropped scrolls (rare chance, like the chance to get a +2 tome from high lvl quests.. rare but common enough to see one once in a while if you run a lot of epics).

The_Brave2
09-11-2011, 10:21 AM
Mana pots - yes I agree they are powerfull, but if a caster feels like they need to chug a billion sp pots in order to complete any epic in this game, then they are doing something wrong and wasting their plat or TP. Let them waste it, as a player who is chugging a billion pots is not skilled, and is not learning how to run epics properly... Any epic can easily be done without SP pots and most epics can be completed with a ton of spare SP before the next shrine.

Good point. I still believe that they need some sort of timer, they make it too easy to compensate for a party that should not complete, and put too much of a burden on healers since they are expected to chug them if a quest goes south. This change would not only be for epics but for all content.


Scrolls - Sorry, but your suggestion would just make it so casters can solo farm and duel box, tri-box, and bring in a ton of multi accounts for better scroll drops. I think the best idea would be to just include them in chests and end rewards, or make them exclusive to boss fights... (like the eChrono bosses... first 2 bosses 50% each for a scroll drop... 100% chance for final boss for avg of 2 scrolls per run... or whatever, the odds can be ajusted to keep scrolls rare and desirable still)

I didn't think about people using multi accounts to farm scrolls... But I don't think that would be a huge problem since you would have to own the content on all of the toons, and have to maneuver all of those toons in and out of the quests. It would become a huge pain and cost to make this happen on your own, but I could see the problem with getting a couple friends to pike your scroll runs. I don't think it would be a huge issue even if it did happen since the overall price of scrolls would be dropping anyways.


Tokens - eh, I like the token system atm. I think except for a few epics the amount of tokens aquired is fine for the work and time involved. Sure you could add in a few more options, but meh.

I do not propose any change to epic tokens other than adding more argument's. I feel they are working as intended but I would like to see more options to slot in epic items as it has become worthless to slot most of the yellow upgrades and I find myself just not slotting anything to save my tokens for other toons.


End reward lists - Yeah would be cool if we got some better end reward lists - right now the system just dosent work and it would be neat if end rewards dropped scrolls (rare chance, like the chance to get a +2 tome from high lvl quests.. rare but common enough to see one once in a while if you run a lot of epics).

I like the idea of the end rewards dropping scrolls, would make it worth while to actually complete the epic. I think that a 10% chance to drop one would make sense. However, this scroll would be BTA. I'll be adding that to the OP. This could actually replace the increased % based on party member... as it would give a reason to complete the quest rather than scroll farm it... Thoughts?

Yokido
09-11-2011, 12:27 PM
I'd like to see an increase scroll droprate for red-named and purple-named mob bosses..
This would encourage people to run optionals as-well during their runs.

The_Brave2
09-13-2011, 10:29 PM
Mana pots - yes I agree they are powerfull, but if a caster feels like they need to chug a billion sp pots in order to complete any epic in this game, then they are doing something wrong and wasting their plat or TP. Let them waste it, as a player who is chugging a billion pots is not skilled, and is not learning how to run epics properly... Any epic can easily be done without SP pots and most epics can be completed with a ton of spare SP before the next shrine.



If you want proof of the problem with SP pots, take a look at Revenants Beating LotB (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=340932) total of about 120 pots used to complete it.

Auran82
09-13-2011, 10:53 PM
I have suggested it before, but regarding augment crystals.

Let them drop as loot. As well as some special loot drop only ones (+2 exc stat, deathblock etc) Might also be nice to have 'set' crystals for more powerful effects, either VoD/Hound set crystals or entirely new sets.

Proper end rewards would be nice, I know at some point they were talking about questgivers being able to tell what difficulty you ran a quest on, but haven't heard much about this since. A small chance to get scrolls from end rewards would be nice.

"/epicquest completions" type thing so every X quest completions (I would make it per pack, not per quest) you get a special end reward similar to raid 20ths with highish chance of scrolls, medium chance of seals and low chances for shards to drop in it. Could probably be split up into 'Quests' and 'Capstone quest/raid' so people can't run X Von1s and get a SoS shard.

sirgog
09-13-2011, 10:58 PM
If you want proof of the problem with SP pots, take a look at Revenants Beating LotB (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=340932) total of about 120 pots used to complete it.

Reminds me of when Shroud was new, and we brute-forced it with hundreds of Heal scrolls, and/or dozens of mana potions. Nothing new in early runs using a metric ton of resources while people learn the raids.

If in two months time noone has managed a sub-10 pot run, then I'll agree the raids are overtuned.

oradafu
09-15-2011, 03:33 AM
- I'm ok with no change to end rewards. Quest giver doesn't know what you ran it on, and that sounds like a chunk of work to change.


If this is true, how come when I do Chronoscope on Epic I get the full list of named items everytime, but when I run it on any other difficulty than I only get a handful of named items and other assorted items?

Feithlin
09-15-2011, 04:01 AM
To OP: very good suggestions. I really like the idea of having more orange named. A nice variation would be a random chance for each trash mob to be an elite member of its breed (i.e. orange named). This would make each run a bit different.
I also like the proposition to increase the scrolls' drop rate for full groups. Otherwise, getting them is more a matter of farming than running the quests. Another option, not exclusive of yours, is to increase the drop rate of scrolls on orange named, especially if some of mobs become orange.

Astraghal
09-15-2011, 04:05 AM
I agree with much of what the OP said. This is also my vision of how I would like to see DDO. Slots on Epic items needs a whole thread of it's own though. All crafting (except Cannith and Greensteel) should have a tiered system of the common useful effects found duplicated across the various systems.

Nephilia
09-15-2011, 04:14 AM
Wanna talk about %drop of shard in epic raids contents?
Why make a trivial fight more hard (and booooooooooooooring as well) without give out no raise up on drop rate?
Same for certain seals... thinking about von 3... is unbelievable to run one of the hardest epic quest (maybe CoF is a little bit harder) and have NO SEALS for NO ONE in party after opening a half dozen+ chests.

Suggestions:

For hardest quest (Epic Von3, Chain of Flame, Against Demon Queen etc): give AT LEAST 1 ensured seal in end chest (I don't want to be greedy). If the quest is one whit named loot only opportunity (Like Von3) give one of the seal that exclusively drop there!
Instead give a random one.

For raids: Raise up shard drop opportunity.
Even more u can separate the epic counters from non-epic run counter.
So at 20 epic raids u can have BOTH in two different windows a selection of named stuff and a selection of shards.
If this seems a little too much to u, then implement a counter even for non raid epic quest.
So at 20 rep of epic von1 I can have a selection of named items that have their seal drop in there