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IanYang
09-07-2011, 07:11 AM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

FrozenNova
09-07-2011, 07:13 AM
It's one of the few things that gives validity to the D&D franchise logo.
You can't 'reason against' already firmly established lore.

Buggss
09-07-2011, 07:14 AM
...Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.....

Although I understand and agree to a point the differences between D&D/DDO and other settings is the reason why we stay playing it for so long.

I'm torn but any changes would be tough...

UltraMonk2
09-07-2011, 07:17 AM
All you have to do is choose the Feat 'Eschew Materials' and you will never need to worry about spell components.

Eladiun
09-07-2011, 07:20 AM
/no

karl_k0ch
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
There are a lot of things which are unneccesary from a mechanical point of view, for instance

Spell Components
Crafing Cleansers
Spell Inscription Materials


Yet, they are included in the game. Mostly, they provide fluff. In particular, imho, the amount of annoyance created by them (of their lack) is far less than the contribution to the overall look&feel of the game.

And, yes, Spell Components originate from the D&D rules.

Tembyr
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
There are as many systems of magic as there are fantasy settings. Drawing runes in the air, dancing, memorizing phrases minus a code word and speaking the code word releases the spell, summoning a demon or other being to perform the magic for you, drawing pentagrams, singing. I could go on forever.

Your idea of magic is only one among many others. In this fantasy setting components are required. It might be impractical sometimes and things could be done to make it more convenient like the much asked for component bags, but lore is not one of the reasons to discard it.

rjbutchko
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
This thread again. Looks like someone forgot to stock up before an important raid.
DDO does (and should) require components for casting. You DO, however, have the ability to opt out of using casting mats simply by choosing the Eschew Materials feat. I personally would rather keep track of components than waste a feat, but thats just me and opinions on that topic vary.

budalic
09-07-2011, 07:22 AM
All you have to do is choose the Feat 'Eschew Materials' and you will never need to worry about spell components.

Feat is too much to pay.

You can buy stuff with crtl + click in amounts measured in hunderds. So, just buy 1k of every component, and you're fine. (If you have screen space, you can make hotbar with all components on it, as a resource tracker).

Hendrik
09-07-2011, 07:23 AM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

Well, forgot about Verbal and Somatic and we never see a fairy tale caster saying something or moving in a unique way as a component to his/her spell.

Spell Comps are a core part of D&D, requesting the removal is the unreasonable part.

MrPilgrim
09-07-2011, 07:23 AM
I've always felt that the spell components gave the tangible aspect to what we think magic would have been, instead of just thought and imagination.

It does also limit your power so that you can use it more wisely, rather than just kill everything with fire in an inexhaustible manner. There will always be a limit to things.

I'm a /no at this.

Silverwren
09-07-2011, 07:24 AM
All you have to do is choose the Feat 'Eschew Materials' and you will never need to worry about spell components.

And if that doesn't tickle your kobold, just buy 500 at a time, like I do. I only have to visit the vendor once a week. Its part of the game and I have no problem with buying components.

t0r012
09-07-2011, 07:29 AM
Material components aren't just a part of D&D there are many other fantasy magics that use components.
Eye of newt and bat wings and all that jazz.
Think big cauldron with bubbly stuff in it.

Anyway this is a big
Not signed

NUDS
09-07-2011, 07:33 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the spells in Baldurs Gate 1/2, Icewind Dale 1/2, NWN 1/2 and Planescape: Torment required spell components.

At least I don't remember having to fill the arcane/divine characters bags with spell components :P

Cyprine
09-07-2011, 07:37 AM
...or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

its in fact the opposite: all magic in popular, classical text is fuelled with awkward element. It is also that very element that is sought after and/or used by the hero/protagonist.

In the oldest myth written, Gilgamesh seeks immortality for which he needs some rare plant found only on the top of that mountain.

dkyle
09-07-2011, 07:38 AM
Pointless, annoying, and not actually an accurate reflection of 3.5 rules. According to 3.5 rules, any components without significant cost are considered to be in a spell-caster's components bag, automatically. Having to track individual components is not a part of 3.5 rules, except the ones with an actual GP cost.

So, I say, get rid of them. They're in our spell components bag. Which is right next to our spellbook.

Absolute-Omniscience
09-07-2011, 07:41 AM
Get rid of em.
Or at least give us spell component bags that stores up to 100,000 so we can buy em and ignore em.

lhidda
09-07-2011, 07:44 AM
Expelliarmus!

Matuse
09-07-2011, 07:45 AM
Everquest had material components for many spells.

D&D in all versions (maybe not 4.0) had components for spells.

The old Might & Magic games had these gem components that spells expended.

Ultima games, from IV onwards (and including Ultima Online) had reagents for their spells.

I'm sure there's plenty of others I'm missing.

Spell components stack up to 999. That's quite sufficient, and helps to offset for spellcasters having far lower equipment repair fees than melees do, plus compensating for not needing to carry around a golf bag of weapons as melees frequently need.

thwart
09-07-2011, 07:46 AM
Spell components are classic D&D. I believe they should also be a part of DDO.

FastTaco
09-07-2011, 07:50 AM
Spell components stack up to 999. That's quite sufficient, and helps to offset for spellcasters having far lower equipment repair fees than melees do, plus compensating for not needing to carry around a golf bag of weapons as melees frequently need.


My PM's gear takes a huge beating, he likes aggro for torc/conc procs and can handle it well but robes tend to break fast if it has no adamantine ritual. My bard has a golfbag of weapons, spell components, and a lot of scrolls/wands... so meh.

Dkyle had it right by saying "According to 3.5 rules, any components without significant cost are considered to be in a spell-caster's components bag, automatically."

rjbutchko
09-07-2011, 07:53 AM
Significant cost is a matter of perspective.
And component bags would be awesome.

Buggss
09-07-2011, 07:55 AM
Expelliarmus!

Even that requires a re-usable spell component...

A WAND!! :D

Therigar
09-07-2011, 07:57 AM
I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

D&D does use spell components and DDO recreates that pretty faithfully. Fortunately for you, there is a feat called Eschew Components that lets you cast without them.

This is an intentional part of the D&D game environment and one of the things that helps distinguish it from other RPGs. It is a minor thing, but it is there nonetheless.

Note also that many spells do not require components. I like to select spells that have no material components.

But, in a bigger sense, spell casting is a combination of several different aspects -- mental focus, verbal utterances, material components, etc. Different spells have different requirements. One might only require concentration and components, another mystic words, etc.

This is all part of the whole D&D game. It may be a bit of a pain to keep track of the components and they can take up a lot of space. But, it is an integral part of the D&D game.

And, that is why it belongs in DDO. :D

Hafeal
09-07-2011, 08:04 AM
Expelliarmus!

LOL. :D

Op, I hear ya, but to an old timer like me, spell components are part of the immersion in playing.

suszterpatt
09-07-2011, 08:16 AM
Aren't component bags already on the way? Or was that recognizing crafting components in bags...

Anyway, possible compromise: no material components as such, but when casting a spell, a character loses an amount of gold equal to the cost of the spell's material component.

oldkraft
09-07-2011, 08:17 AM
game might lack a named 'eschew materials'-like robe or something like that ...

I always found it unbelievable, how many diverse things a heart of hen f.ex could produce.
So lets have specifik materials for each and every material-dependent spell.
We'll need bags then - though one materal could evt. produce 'level 1-4 negative spells'.

arch0njw
09-07-2011, 08:21 AM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

Spell components go back to original D&D, IIRC, they were certainly in AD&D 2nd Edition.

What I would like to see is a spell component bag (i.e., a quiver). I don't mind taking Eschew Material, but I it would be nice to take a different feat instead.

Kaldair
09-07-2011, 08:21 AM
Pointless, annoying, and not actually an accurate reflection of 3.5 rules. According to 3.5 rules, any components without significant cost are considered to be in a spell-caster's components bag, automatically. Having to track individual components is not a part of 3.5 rules, except the ones with an actual GP cost.

So, I say, get rid of them. They're in our spell components bag. Which is right next to our spellbook.

Ya but you missed an important part of that bag's description. The one about only holding 10 spells worth of components when purchased. My PnP games are always about shaving the ogres because ogre hair can be used for bull's strength, and dissecting the dragons for the plethora of components they can provide, and putting a point or two into survival to catch that live spider you have to eat for spider climb, all to save the components in your pouch, or to use when your pouch has been lost/taken. And when I say my games, it's not just when I'm DMing. It's the group. It's amusing and adds another layer of verisimilitude

EDIT: My apologies, looks like that was a rollover effect we brought from 3.0. Still, spell component pouches that are endless don't make much sense.

EDIT AGAIN: Bah! Checked the 3.0 books as well and it's not there either. I have no clue where we got the rule from, but like I said, makes sense.

morticianjohn
09-07-2011, 08:30 AM
Ya but you missed an important part of that bag's description. The one about only holding 10 spells worth of components when purchased. My PnP games are always about shaving the ogres because ogre hair can be used for bull's strength, and dissecting the dragons for the plethora of components they can provide, and putting a point or two into survival to catch that live spider you have to eat for spider climb, all to save the components in your pouch, or to use when your pouch has been lost/taken. And when I say my games, it's not just when I'm DMing. It's the group. It's amusing and adds another layer of verisimilitude

Those are things that don't translate well into a computer game. I'm not complaining about ~10 inventory spaces taken but I understand and empathize with those who are

dkyle
09-07-2011, 08:31 AM
Ya but you missed an important part of that bag's description. The one about only holding 10 spells worth of components when purchased. My PnP games are always about shaving the ogres because ogre hair can be used for bull's strength, and dissecting the dragons for the plethora of components they can provide, and putting a point or two into survival to catch that live spider you have to eat for spider climb, all to save the components in your pouch, or to use when your pouch has been lost/taken. And when I say my games, it's not just when I'm DMing. It's the group. It's amusing and adds another layer of verisimilitude

That's not part of the 3.5 rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch


A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

If you enjoy houseruling otherwise, by all means, have at it, but I can't say I have much interest in dealing with all that.

Miow
09-07-2011, 08:33 AM
There should be more components required not less! Such as collectables....casting is op.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-07-2011, 09:57 AM
The rediculous part is that we don't have spell component bags!

Especially now that crafting can pull ingrediants from bags.

I'm perfectly fine with having to have a supply of spell components.
I'm not fine with having to devote so much of my inventory space to them. :(

Zachski
09-07-2011, 02:32 PM
I just realized that there's a fix to this that would make both the players and the devs happy, all it would take is adding an additional "if then" statement before "if spell component > 0 then (cast spell, -1 component)"

And that is "if spell component bag => 1, then (cast spell)"

(with 1 representing the level of the bag, not the amount)

Well, obviously, it's not that simple, but ya know.

And that is a spell component bag that contains a theoretical infinite amount of that spell component, and every component below it.

You start with no spell component bag, and you can choose to buy a level 1 bag from the DDO store so you can cast Niac's without worrying about pinches of sand. Additional spell levels are unlocked in the store as you gain them.

The other choice is to wait much later to find an NPC that sells some of these bags for GP, only the spell components will be less useful then because you might barely be using spells of that level.

Note that the exception to this rule would be special components, like with Trap the Soul and Stoneskin. You still have to buy those.

That being said, spell components are kind of charming and add flavor to the game. That mostly outweighs the bad for me.

Missing_Minds
09-07-2011, 03:18 PM
We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

Would you prefer a game balance reason? Very well.

Unlike a melee beating things constantly with weapons, you just lob energy.

Melees must repair their weapons constantly. This takes money.
Your spells can cost money via components. There is "money" balance in this fashion.

Now if you want to talk SP vs. endless tanking that is a different argument for several past threads that has no clear winner and has lots of whining on both sides.


I'm perfectly fine with having to have a supply of spell components.
I'm not fine with having to devote so much of my inventory space to them. :(
Not counting hands, most of my melees have at least 10 weapons/shields or so on them. I just consider them weapons that are auto selected. That is why I don't get upset about that issue. However, I do wish their weight didn't count against us so much.

dkyle
09-07-2011, 03:32 PM
EDIT: My apologies, looks like that was a rollover effect we brought from 3.0. Still, spell component pouches that are endless don't make much sense.

EDIT AGAIN: Bah! Checked the 3.0 books as well and it's not there either. I have no clue where we got the rule from, but like I said, makes sense.

Ah, maybe from an earlier edition? Or it could have just been someone's own idea that got accepted as fact by your group.

As for the pouch, the idea isn't that it is strictly "endless". Just that typically, managing a spell pouch can be glossed over. The recommendation being to just move on and assume it's being maintained properly in whatever downtime that isn't being specifically played out. We don't generally play out sharpening swords, for example, even though that would, realistically, be necessary. Just another boring, basic maintenance task.

Of course, if a Wizard got teleported out in the middle of a desert, a GM might reasonably decide to limit the spell components the Wizard has, but that would be an invocation of Rule 0, not playing the rules as writing. Like how water is normally not a big deal, something that can be glossed over, but it becomes a big deal if you're in Dark Sun.

Missing_Minds
09-07-2011, 03:37 PM
Ah, maybe from an earlier edition? Or it could have just been someone's own idea that got accepted as fact by your group.

Most groups just tended to house rule that for a few silver/gold you would always assume you had the necessary component to cast your standard spells. Saved hours on character maintenance.


to catch that live spider you have to eat for spider climb
*blink blink... double check* I'll be... it is amazing any drow in FR use spider climb at all then given how sacred spiders are to Lloth, of which killing a spider is punishable with death.

/end tangent.

Bodic
09-07-2011, 03:44 PM
the fix for it 1 bag all comps you get 1000 uses in the bag all spell levels not individual spell levels just a straight 1000 as your level increases so does the cost of replacement comps. Does not include special comps. ex: stoneskin, true resurrection, mass cure light grenade.

A wonderful Idea gets the best of both worlds, and is true to PnP.

R0cksteady
09-07-2011, 04:16 PM
Until component bags are added, I don't see why we need to keep them. They add nothing to the game but the need to walk to house J to buy some new ones every few weeks.

I do like the idea of buying a bag which gives you 1000 uses of each level spell. Like, since the bag thing doesn't work, it could just be an item, called a component bag, and it would display 1000 uses for each level spell, and go down as you use them. Maybe even instead of buying a new one every time it's empty, pay to recharge (Refill) it.

It's really annoying filling 9-12 backpack spots with components.

Dawnsfire
09-07-2011, 04:18 PM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

That is what they made the 'Eschew Materials' feat for. If you don't like the rule, waste the space on the feat.

MadDruid
09-07-2011, 04:36 PM
I think the rule is not being used enough in ddo, it is a way of limiting spell caster power by making certain componants in your campaign hard to get. Rather that the coders respecing the spells and enhancements every so often to the crys of dont nerf my caster from the mass's why not make more spells especially the ones considered overpowered use more specific expensive componants in the same way as stone skin.

Corwinsky
09-07-2011, 04:38 PM
Don't forget that spells components are not weightless either.
Not noticeable when you carry only 10 but when you're a arcane with low strength (10 with ship buffs?) and have 900 of each spell level you're getting close of getting some burden penalties (from carrying medium weight instead of light). -> bull strength spell has a use again or maybe I'll put +6 str on one of my epic items one day.

Other than that, this thing is indeed pointless, so inexpensive, so easy with crt+ to buy 500 at a time that it's hard to ever come close to be out of some.
This is D&D rules indeed but it doesn't translate in anything usefull in a MMO.

Turbine has shown with vorpals, auto-crit held mobs, etc that they don't mind moving away from paper rules when it suits them. They could very well do so here if they wanted.

Primalhowl
09-07-2011, 04:46 PM
The problem with considering this issue from a mechanics standpoint is that components represent in many ways the "flavor" for classic D&D, which is why many play this game and not some other fantasy clone MMO. As time has passed, Turbine has made many changes to the game at the expense of the "flavor" of D&D (*cough* it's 1d6, not 1-6 *cough*) in the interest of the mechanics of an MMO and easing the learning curve.

The problem is... if you remove enough flavor, you end up with a whitebread generic fantasy MMO... which I would suggest is NOT what any of us are here to play.

Splatterfart
09-07-2011, 04:50 PM
You're right. Spell components ARE stupid. Casters shouldn't need them.

Similarly, fighters shouldn't need swords.
And rangers shouldn't need bows to throw their arrows
Actually, they shouldn't need arrows at all
You shouldn't need boots
We should all fly
Better yet, teleport instantly
Even better: We will all travel in vacuum tubes! *Fooop!*
And people shouldn't need cleric since they shouldn't be taking damage
and you shouldn't need to play this game.

Letrii
09-07-2011, 05:00 PM
The way it works in DnD: if you have a spell component pouch, you ignore need for material components without a cost listed for them. Such as, bat guano for fireball spell. Then there are some spells that require a component with a price list, such as crushed diamonds for one of the resurrection spells. Having pouch does not get around that one. And some spells require a focus, like a specially made mirror. The focus is not consumed in casting of spell, but is required to cast it. Divine caster can substitute their holy symbol for the focus when casting as a divine spell.

Missing_Minds
09-07-2011, 05:05 PM
The way it works in DnD: if you have a spell component pouch, you ignore need for material components without a cost listed for them. Such as, bat guano for fireball spell. Then there are some spells that require a component with a price list, such as crushed diamonds for one of the resurrection spells. Having pouch does not get around that one. And some spells require a focus, like a specially made mirror. The focus is not consumed in casting of spell, but is required to cast it. Divine caster can substitute their holy symbol for the focus when casting as a divine spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch

Just so people don't think you are spewing a house rule.

Milfeulle
09-07-2011, 05:10 PM
Stop complaining and start enjoying.
Back in the days people are losing their lifes to fight a nasty war for our generation. I live in a peaceful world now and I'm grateful for what I already have.

Letrii
09-07-2011, 05:17 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch

Just so people don't think you are spewing a house rule.

Was too lazy to look it up, just typed out best I could remember.

muffinlad
09-07-2011, 05:19 PM
If Eschew Materials did not cost mana, it would be the perfect feat to take. As long as it costs mana to use, it is normally better to take up those 9 slots in your back pack.

muffinbatguano

Jerevon
09-07-2011, 05:20 PM
As a pure paladin who took Weapons of Good, I like the spell Holy Sword and use it all the time (greatsword). I'd, some day, like to see the disposable anointed cold iron weapon reagent go away and have a permenant weapon selection that can accept the holy sword spell. Just saying.

der_kluge
09-07-2011, 05:24 PM
A while back, I noticed that my sorcerer was carrying around 900 hearts of hens.

The very idea is ludicrous on SO many levels.

Rumbaar
09-07-2011, 05:25 PM
They did away with the 'spells per day' limit from PnP -> DDO. But having to carry 9 stacks of components on my wizard are a pain.

Letrii
09-07-2011, 06:58 PM
Heard we might be getting true epic levels, maybe we can get Ignore Material Components feat when we do. Should work as Eschew without increase in SP cost.

Xenostrata
09-07-2011, 07:30 PM
Not another one of these threads. This -

Spell components are classic D&D. I believe they should also be a part of DDO.
- is not true. In PnP, all casters had components bags, which were considered enough to provide all the pinches of sulfur and bat excrement you would need for a lifetime of fireballs. No purchasing/management was necesary, except for the rare ingredients required for certain spells like Stoneskin or Raise Dead.

Forcing the weakest classes to carry ~9000 objects at any given time is fairly unfair, especially since it has NO basis in DnD lore.

Kalari
09-07-2011, 07:45 PM
I am sure by now someone else said it but eschew materials will help you with everything save stone skin and create undead and trap the soul which need special components to cast.

I dont mind using materials it makes me feel more wizardly I just wish they would develop a cask or holder for components that would save some pack room for us caster types who try to be prepared for any ole thing. ooh and a scroll case to :)

enigma1122
09-07-2011, 07:56 PM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.



Few things that require spell components besides DDO / D&D

Dresden Files
Jackie Chan Adventures
Shakespear
Loonytoon Cartoons
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic
Hoodoo
Power Ranger: Mystic Force
Harry Potter (wands as a focus are technically a spell component. More used for creating magic items though.)

.... sure I can think of more if you give me some time.

Talias006
09-07-2011, 08:13 PM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

The only fantasy worlds I know of that don't use expendable spell components for most/all spells are great literary works.
Tolkein for one; Gandalf only ever used his staff for casting his magic, but rather his staff was the focus of most of his magic.
Like a wand in the HP world.
Wheel of Time, the magic there didn't require the use of components outside the self except on rare occasions.
Much of Feist's Midkemia and the affected worlds had no excessive spell components aside from the great works or conjurations.
Pug didn't rely on components much, if at all.

D&D has always used components that I know of, from AD&D onward.
While you didn't need to worry much about keeping them up, the switch from turn based storytelling with intervals in between adventures
(during which it was thought upon you refilled your component pouch as well as did other things, like leveling up etc)
to active combat with spell points, the need for components as such arose.

It became silly to think you would always have all the ingredients you needed to keep pumping out your spells until you ran dry of sp. And then we have the shrines, which refill your sp but not your components, allowing you to cast more spells.

That's why we have components bought at vendors, because the pouch has become obsolete with the changing from turn based to active mmo combat.
Now, if they were to offer a store only endless bag for each level of spells, or that allowed unlimited uses of spells of the level of your bag and below, that I could get behind.
Otherwise, No.


and you shouldn't need to play this game.

Nicely put. If it's that unreasonable, why are you still here?

Battlehawke
09-07-2011, 08:16 PM
I like the idea of having spell components. It's AD&D after all. I do think, however that there should be a spell component bag. We have bags for everything else and it doesn't seem that difficult to implement.

JollySwagMan
09-07-2011, 08:20 PM
As another poster mentioned, the idea that magic/spells might require an unusual ingredient or two is not particular to D&D...Many a tale has featured a spell that required ingredients...




First Witch
Round about the Cauldron go;
In the poison'd Entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and Nights has thirty-one
Swelter'd Venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.

All
Double, double toile and trouble ;
Fire burn and Cauldron bubble.

etc.


I do not find spell components to be overly cumbersome for my characters in DDO, however I would totally support Spell Component bags of some sort.

kmau
09-07-2011, 08:27 PM
It is common knowledge that Bards need a http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/SmallHardRod.png/32px-SmallHardRod.png Small Hard Rod to cast http://ddowiki.com/images/DominatePerson.png Dominate Person!

Aspenor
09-07-2011, 08:51 PM
Just poking my nose in to say that you don't have to actually buy most components in PnP. You just spend the money on a spell component pouch, and it's assumed always keep it stocked with every component worth less than 1 gp. Components worth money you are actually expected to buy.

But actually buying a thousand bat **** and sulfer? Doesn't happen.

Letrii
09-07-2011, 09:16 PM
The only fantasy worlds I know of that don't use expendable spell components for most/all spells are great literary works.
Tolkein for one; Gandalf only ever used his staff for casting his magic, but rather his staff was the focus of most of his magic.
Like a wand in the HP world.
Wheel of Time, the magic there didn't require the use of components outside the self except on rare occasions.
Much of Feist's Midkemia and the affected worlds had no excessive spell components aside from the great works or conjurations.
Pug didn't rely on components much, if at all.

D&D has always used components that I know of, from AD&D onward.
While you didn't need to worry much about keeping them up, the switch from turn based storytelling with intervals in between adventures
(during which it was thought upon you refilled your component pouch as well as did other things, like leveling up etc)
to active combat with spell points, the need for components as such arose.

It became silly to think you would always have all the ingredients you needed to keep pumping out your spells until you ran dry of sp. And then we have the shrines, which refill your sp but not your components, allowing you to cast more spells.

That's why we have components bought at vendors, because the pouch has become obsolete with the changing from turn based to active mmo combat.
Now, if they were to offer a store only endless bag for each level of spells, or that allowed unlimited uses of spells of the level of your bag and below, that I could get behind.
Otherwise, No.



Nicely put. If it's that unreasonable, why are you still here?

Porting to a MMO does not mean you need components, they are there just to be a plat sink and no other reason.

shores11
09-07-2011, 09:21 PM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

If it were possible you could not be more wrong than this statement. Spell components are not only the base and foundation of spell casting in D&D but in fantasy based game period and to include real life attempts at spell casting such as from witches, warlocks, gipsy's, etc...

Darsith
09-07-2011, 09:27 PM
While I would love the idea of a pouch that allowed me to cast all spells except specific ones (stone skin, raise dead, etc...) I am not sure if that is the answer. I think most of us are eagerly awaiting the day that spell component pouches are implemented. I would even take a bag that I could store them in (as long as it was stored in stacks of 2k+), but had to remove them to cast. This would be a space saver for most of a quest/in town. At first it would be clunky, but most casters would get used to having to take a certain number of mats out of the bag.

I would even be ok with the game just subtracting from my over all gold amount every time I cast a spell, but even that seems to lose the flavor of the atmosphere.

Over all as a player with casters of all types (FVS, wiz, sorc, bard, pali, and soon an arti), I eagerly await a solution to the bag space that is being monopolized by spell mats.

edit: For those that are adamant for the spell components to stay the same, I ask you to forget what over bearing rules were enforced (or not enforced) in your pnp campaigns and look at the official 3.5 rule set (which DDO is based loosely on at this point) and realize that there is a precedent for these discussions.

Talias006
09-07-2011, 11:18 PM
Just poking my nose in to say that you don't have to actually buy most components in PnP. You just spend the money on a spell component pouch, and it's assumed always keep it stocked with every component worth less than 1 gp. Components worth money you are actually expected to buy.

But actually buying a thousand bat **** and sulfer? Doesn't happen.


Porting to a MMO does not mean you need components, they are there just to be a plat sink and no other reason.

I will concede this point to you.
They didn't need to import components when they did the rest of the porting to an mmo.

But it's as much a part of the D&D genre, as well as being a sink.
Repairing items is also a sink.
Everyone has to do it at some point, and martial classes get a way to prevent incidental damage before non-martial ones do.

A lot of the ideas of porting from PnP into MMO might seem lost in retrospect without being given a reason of why they did such.
I'm not saying I know what they were thinking, but it's my logic that tells me this is at least partially why they did make these changes.

Being that it was inconceivable to have ways to find components within adventures, which you were supposed to stock up on necessities before you began.
Before you begin consternation of the facts, they did this before the DDOstore was even a concept, back in the first iteration of the game.

So if you failed to grasp the concept behind my prior post about components needed, then I can't help you.
Better off saying to each their own.

gloopygloop
09-07-2011, 11:28 PM
Eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog.

Spell components have been around for a long time.

ainmosni
09-07-2011, 11:44 PM
sugar, spice, and everything nice

these are the spell components needed to summon the perfect little girls

but the Archmage accidentally added an extra metamagic:

AUGMENT SUMMONING

and thus the OverPoweredPuff Sorcs were born

Letrii
09-08-2011, 02:13 AM
I will concede this point to you.
They didn't need to import components when they did the rest of the porting to an mmo.

But it's as much a part of the D&D genre, as well as being a sink.
Repairing items is also a sink.
Everyone has to do it at some point, and martial classes get a way to prevent incidental damage before non-martial ones do.

A lot of the ideas of porting from PnP into MMO might seem lost in retrospect without being given a reason of why they did such.
I'm not saying I know what they were thinking, but it's my logic that tells me this is at least partially why they did make these changes.

Being that it was inconceivable to have ways to find components within adventures, which you were supposed to stock up on necessities before you began.
Before you begin consternation of the facts, they did this before the DDOstore was even a concept, back in the first iteration of the game.

So if you failed to grasp the concept behind my prior post about components needed, then I can't help you.
Better off saying to each their own.

Not saying we shouldn't use components, just they should have used spell component bags and only have to buy components for costly spells.

callforkills
09-08-2011, 02:22 AM
/no

^^ What he said.

jaegarnel
09-08-2011, 02:39 AM
Frankly, I'd like to have a spell component bag as well, but spell components as they are now aren't that much of a hassle. They occupy 9 slots in your inventory, plus 1 or 2 more if you use the spells with unique ones.

That's probably less inventory space than a good melee character will have to spend on all his extra weapons to break DR and be most effective in specific situations.
As an arcane I have 7 inventory slots occupied by extra weapons and wands, mostly clickie stuff. I'd expect a fighter to use a lot more than that.
In the same way, melee toons will usually have much higher repair costs than casters (provided there are no deaths of course). Spell components cost money to offset that.

So spell components are actually a balance thing, so that pure casters (who don't fight with weapons at all) don't have a lot more inventory space available than classes that use a lot of different weapons, and that the costs of running quests are close to each other as well.

The people who are mainly penalized by this are melee divines who need both the components and the weapons. Even then, I don't think it's much of a hassle if you just plan ahead and buy components in stacks of 900 or so.

JPDefault
09-08-2011, 02:59 AM
I know in PnP rules and everything, just feeling punctilious today...

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

I assume you never played Ultima/Ultima Online. Every spell requires a specific SET of components, the price varies from vendor to vendor, and not every verndor has every component. Now THAT is a hassle (though I actually liked it, you know, for immersion).


Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.
Magic is not generated by anything, it just doesn't exist.
But if you are referring to magic in a game, it has rules. For example, take the D&D 3.5 "Identify" spell:

Arcane Material Component
A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.

IanYang
09-08-2011, 04:03 AM
If it were possible you could not be more wrong than this statement. Spell components are not only the base and foundation of spell casting in D&D but in fantasy based game period and to include real life attempts at spell casting such as from witches, warlocks, gipsy's, etc...
Yes, spell components exist in D&D. So what? I had stated in the OP: "We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D."

Have you seen fantasy movies like Harry Potter or The Lord of the Ring? Did you see those mages use components when casting spells?


Magic is not generated by anything, it just doesn't exist.
But if you are referring to magic in a game, it has rules. For example, take the D&D 3.5 "Identify" spell:
I'm not going to argue with materialists about whether magics exist or not. But if you really don't like magics, go to play other games. D&D is an idealistic and theistic game.

JPDefault
09-08-2011, 04:21 AM
I'm not going to argue with materialists about whether magics exist or not. But if you really don't like magics, go to play other games. D&D is an idealistic and theistic game.

Mine was just a tongue-in-cheek comment about what does magic generate from. It's a moot argument, like discussing if angels grow beards or not.

The point behind the joke was that in D&D magic doesn't "generate from the caster's mind". It's either granted by a deity, or comes from focus, or pronouncing power words, or performing rituals which involve the use of material components, or a combination of the above.

I'd like to have a reagents pouch like in D&D, but I also understand Turbine's approach and I can easily live with it.

IanYang
09-08-2011, 04:41 AM
Mine was just a tongue-in-cheek comment about what does magic generate from. It's a moot argument, like discussing if angels grow beards or not.

The point behind the joke was that in D&D magic doesn't "generate from the caster's mind". It's either granted by a deity, or comes from focus, or pronouncing power words, or performing rituals which involve the use of material components, or a combination of the above.

I'd like to have a reagents pouch like in D&D, but I also understand Turbine's approach and I can easily live with it.
I see. I'm not a native English speaker so sometimes I don't know how to convey my thoughts or ues correct English grammar.

The sentence in the OP is mainly to convey that magics are casted after spell casters have thoughts in their minds that they want to cast spells.

gloopygloop
09-08-2011, 07:41 AM
Have you seen fantasy movies like Harry Potter or The Lord of the Ring? Did you see those mages use components when casting spells?

1) Harry Potter? Seriously? I absolutely agree that material components do not have to be part of a cosmology, but that certainly doesn't mean that they don't make sense in context. Casters in D&D don't just think of a spell and then it happens. They have to actively tap into the magic of the world around them and there are universe-specific rules about how to do that.

2) The wizards in Lord of the Rings aren't D&D style wizards. They are angels and demi-gods. Demi-gods can get away with breaking the rules sometimes.

Here's a list of a few stories/shows/etc. that have spell components. Harry Potter isn't the only source of magic in the world. :)
Ranma 1/2 (uses components in the manga)
The movie Warlock
The third Harry Potter movie has a choir singing near the beginning of the movie.
-They're singing the "eye of newt" verses from Macbeth.
Discworld
The Princess Bride has a quest for odd material components for Miracle Max
Potions in Harry Potter
Dresden Files
The Ethshar series of novelsThe NeverEnding Story has non-physical material components (memories sacrificed in the casting of "spells" through the amulet)
Dream of the Red Chamber
Enchanted Forest Chronicles
Kushiel's Legacy
Conan the Barbarian
Wizard of Oz (Patchwork Girl of Oz)
Prospero's Daughter
Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV Series)
Order of the Stick
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Mage: the Awakening
Unknown Armies
Ultima
The Sims
King's Quest
World of Warcraft
Albion
several Final Fantasy games
Runescape
Sluggy Freelance
Jackie Chan Adventures
American Dragon Jake Long
Real Life: Hoodoo

Hendrik
09-08-2011, 07:47 AM
If Eschew Materials did not cost mana, it would be the perfect feat to take. As long as it costs mana to use, it is normally better to take up those 9 slots in your back pack.

muffinbatguano

With Capstone, EM only costs 1sp!

ONE!

;)

arch0njw
09-08-2011, 08:55 AM
A couple other thoughts.

1) Call of Cthulhu (P&P) requires components for magic.

2) At least the more complicated spells (like warding, etc.) don't take minutes or hours to assemble and cast. I've often wondered how fast those candle components burn... good for spells, awful for illumination! And summoning? Most of the novels talk about summoning circles and rituals to summon minions. I'm sooo glad that doesn't need to be done. The casters would become some of the most hated characters in the game.

brian14
09-08-2011, 09:08 AM
There are a lot of things which are unneccesary from a mechanical point of view, for instance

Spell Components
Crafing Cleansers
Spell Inscription Materials


Yet, they are included in the game. Mostly, they provide fluff. In particular, imho, the amount of annoyance created by them (of their lack) is far less than the contribution to the overall look&feel of the game.

And, yes, Spell Components originate from the D&D rules.
In PnP they were far more important. First, quite a few them were expensive -- Stoneskin and Trap the Soul spells in DDO are carry-overs of that, but in PnP many spells used gems, specially prepared statuettes, and the like as components.

Second, even cheap, easily obtained components were different for every spell. Every wizard in my campaign wore a bandolier with twenty or more pouches holding stuff like sand, bat guano, sulphur, glass beads, iron needles, etc. Sometimes they ran out.

And third, some of this stuff was easy to lose. Sand and glass beads are not flammable, but sulphur and bat guano are. Wizard fails a save against fireball -- roll a save for the bandolier. If bandolier fails, half your components go up in flames.

Spell components were a significant component of role-playing. In DDO though, they are mostly a way to take up inventory space.

Missing_Minds
09-08-2011, 09:12 AM
And third, some of this stuff was easy to lose. Sand and glass beads are not flammable, but sulphur and bat guano are. Wizard fails a save against fireball -- roll a save for the bandolier. If bandolier fails, half your components go up in flames.

That would be your DM paying attention to details, and normally it would take a crit hit of a fireball (or with some DM chose to use crit fail aka roll a 1) to cause equipment to roll a save.

dkyle
09-08-2011, 09:19 AM
That would be your DM paying attention to details, and normally it would take a crit hit of a fireball (or with some DM chose to use crit fail aka roll a 1) to cause equipment to roll a save.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow

The 3.5 rules were that on a critical fail on a save (there's no such thing as a "critical hit" for spells in 3.5), one item could get damaged. And by the rules, it wouldn't be spell components unless the Wizard had nothing in their hands, no stowed weapons, or equipped magic items.

Missing_Minds
09-08-2011, 09:36 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow

The 3.5 rules were that on a critical fail on a save (there's no such thing as a "critical hit" for spells in 3.5), one item could get damaged. And by the rules, it wouldn't be spell components unless the Wizard had nothing in their hands, no stowed weapons, or equipped magic items.

Not quite right. You can crit hit a spell in 3.x.

"Spells and Critical Hits
A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. "
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

Savras
09-08-2011, 09:46 AM
While I think that using spell materials enrich the gameplay (for PnP at least), DDO is different because we can cast the same spell as many times over so long as our SPs permit, as opposed to how casters can only cast spells limited to the amount that they have memorized.

So we don't really have clerics pushing around a cartload of Bull Dung for spellcasting back in PnP.

bigolbear
09-08-2011, 10:09 AM
It is unreasonable and doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't know if spell components are required in the classic D&D, too, but in my opinion spell casting should not require components.

Before I start playing DDO, I hadn't played a RPG game or heard of a fairy tale in which spell casting need the supply of components.

Magics are wonderful powers which are generated by spell casters' mind and thought. Therefore their generation should not require any material component.

We don't really need to follow an unreasonable rule even if it exists in the classic D&D.

REALY?

hubble bubble boil and trouble, eye of newt and leg of frog by the pricking of my thumbs this way wicked something comes.

right there is probly the most classic 'magic user' reference and includes somatic, verbal and material components and also a couldron as a focus(material component that is not destroyed).

D&D has always had the concept of mateial spell components, verbal (saying words) and somatic (gesturing).

yun_chang
09-08-2011, 11:13 AM
You know what's really unreasonable? Someone asks us to go and fight the devil because of a dream he had! And the devil? he lives in the sewers!! and sometimes when we go to fight the devil there are robots who come along to help us!!!

So either throw out "reasonableness" as a criteria for evaluating what belongs in this game or remove Vision of Destruction along with spell components.

Uska
09-08-2011, 11:24 AM
Can't agree with you at all

enekich
09-08-2011, 12:22 PM
That's not part of the 3.5 rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellComponentPouch



If you enjoy houseruling otherwise, by all means, have at it, but I can't say I have much interest in dealing with all that.

i agree. if you want to pound the rule book, then go ahead. eschew materials is for components less than 1 gp value only, and how many spells per day would you have??????? Imagine only 4 walls of fire between shrines.

Aspenor
09-08-2011, 10:13 PM
Fun Fact: spell components in D&D are a joke. No, not a metaphorical joke. They are, literally, a joke. They are meant to be LOL-funny. Let's take a look:

Sleep: A pinch of fine sand
Get it? Come and get me, sand man.

Glitterdust: Ground mica
Yes, you are literally blowing glittery dust all over your enemies.

Fireball: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
Yep, you just made gunpowder, McGyver style.

Spookyaction
09-09-2011, 03:36 AM
Wowie wow wow wow. I have never seen so many role players in one thread. For this game spell components are nothing but a time sink. Talking about the extremely trivial cost of components as some merit to keep them is silly. Saying that its to keep it fair because meles have to carry a lot of stuff is guffaw, dont you all carry scrolls ??? Making some kind of real world or fantasy world argument is hogwash. Having spell components is just a time waste and i would love to see them gone. If you want to keep a few of the more unusual ones like diamonds fine but for the common spells we should not have to carry them.

Jerevon
09-09-2011, 11:22 AM
You know, the component bag that doesn't need restock, as mentioned back up the thread, is a good idea. There can be different componet bags that increase the effectiveness of a school or +1 to effective level of. Then you've got arcane, divine, elemental component bags that would satisify all component requirements. They'd probably have to make a new slot in the paper doll sheet or use the quiver slot to "equip" it, but that's not a big deal.

Yeah, component bags that have all reagents and never run out sound like a plan to me.

arch0njw
09-09-2011, 01:39 PM
Fun Fact: spell components in D&D are a joke. No, not a metaphorical joke. They are, literally, a joke. They are meant to be LOL-funny. Let's take a look:

Sleep: A pinch of fine sand
Get it? Come and get me, sand man.

Glitterdust: Ground mica
Yes, you are literally blowing glittery dust all over your enemies.

Fireball: A tiny ball of bat guano and sulfur.
Yep, you just made gunpowder, McGyver style.

Been playing for 20+ years. They're not the first to make a bit of a joke out of the components. But it's still funny.

"Mr. Sandman
Bring me a dream..."

NarakuSama
09-09-2011, 03:45 PM
sugar, spice, and everything nice

these are the spell components needed to summon the perfect little girls

but the Archmage accidentally added an extra metamagic:

AUGMENT SUMMONING

and thus the OverPoweredPuff Sorcs were born

this was good one XD

but now to the subject:
everything i ever read about spell casting be it fantasy book, game or whatever had in one way or another spell components therefore they are integral part of spell casting and should be here.
also spell component pouch is unneeded with the Eschew Materials feat.
yes some say its a waste of feat but it can help if you run out of materials while in quest.
but dont forget that it cant help with some spells.
also its mana cost is almost nothing so it can be great combo with normal materials and special ones.
besides you also carry wands and scrolls when using them you dont need spell components.
having a bag to hold all spell materials in one slot will be more usefull then removing the use of this items.

NarakuSama
09-09-2011, 03:52 PM
You know what's really unreasonable? Someone asks us to go and fight the devil because of a dream he had! And the devil? he lives in the sewers!! and sometimes when we go to fight the devil there are robots who come along to help us!!!

So either throw out "reasonableness" as a criteria for evaluating what belongs in this game or remove Vision of Destruction along with spell components.



well said, agree

DaSawks
09-09-2011, 03:52 PM
Yes to spell components for wizards. No for Sorcerers. Why? Sorc's use there own powers to cast spells. Wizards create a spell with a spell book and materials. Kinda like a cook book and food. Divines should not have components. They should have things that represent there faith. There spell casting ability comes from there chosen deity. Not pinches of bat poo.

Kalari
09-09-2011, 05:19 PM
considering the fact that we get basically unlimited ways to cast spells and are not restricted to a number per day I dont see the issue with needing components. Id rather have that then to be restricted the way I was in pen and paper with spells especially since we approach encounters far differently in this game then we do during a campaign.

It makes sense for all the benefits we receive as casters that there are some draw backs and if needing components is one of those I think its one of the lesser ones.

azrael4h
09-10-2011, 09:47 PM
I designed and programmed a game for DOS once that had not only spell components, but hand gestures (somatic) and spoken runes (verbal) as well. The physical components had to be found or bought, and for the most powerful spells, there was only a few. Unless you got a few lucky chest pulls, you weren't casting some of the most powerful spells more than a few times, period. The game sat in a time span too short to allow for natural restocking, so what was there, was there.

While this was only about 1/3rd of the total spells available, this meant that spellcasting, which had at least as much as if not more of a lead over melees in total power, had to be husbanded as a limited resource; most of the spells which didn't have a component were utility spells and things of that nature.

It added a totally different dimension to the tactical use of magic, and prevented casters from being dominant in a relatively low-magic campaign. Granted, it was my own mechanics, and instant-death was very likely and common even from melees. It was probably too difficult to be a sellable game (and by difficult, I don't mean the Shade version of more hp and longer, drawn out battles. The sole dragon would be unkillable if translated into DDO. It took a lucky roll or 15, player skill, and a good party to survive). In retrospect, I should have just released it as freeware or something, rather than abandoning the source on a floppy. Or at least knuckled up and rewrote it for Windows.

/not signed on removing components. Take the feat, or play some other game.