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aennae
09-04-2011, 02:44 PM
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/aennae/

There is no protection cloak since it does not stack with shield of faith. I cannot find a good parrying weapon (still looking for one, possibly with a +2 if they do exist). I have a better shield banked (like +4 large with devotion on it).

What quest should be my first objective ? i have heard about giant hold but i m unsure.

FrozenNova
09-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Put AC completely out of your mind. It's not worth the effort.
On the other hand, you're in dire need of more hitpoints.
Use superior ardor clickies rather than devotion gear.
You require heavy fort, either from Minos or from armor.

Feithlin
09-04-2011, 04:38 PM
One of the nice things of playing a cleric is the variation of game style while leveling.

During the first levels (up to 11 more or less), you make a nice, if not a strong, melee character, thanks to some incredible low level buff spells and nice CCs (greater command specifically). But you're quickly limited. At level 11-12 and above, you don't gain much, unless you're specialized in melee, while your AC, who was very efficient at lower levels, becomes less and less effective and soon totally useless.

At these levels though, you get spells which allow to totally change your game style to become a 'real' caster: Divine punishment (level 5 DoT), Blade barrier (level 6), Cometfall (level 6), Symbol of persuasion (level 6), Slay living (level 5) and later on Destruction (level 7). With this, you can get out of melee and unleash your true power.

With this change of game style, you should also change the configuration of gear, focusing more on spell casting and less on melee: forget AC, get an heavy fort. robe instead of your armor, drop your shield for another casting buff (or SP, or clicky, or improve DCs, etc.), increase your HP (con item, improved then greater false life), etc. Also notice that at level 12 (of cleric, so 13 for you), you will get the 2nd tier of your PrE and thus healing aura, which helps a lot on healing.

*Edit: For quests, you should focus on Sands of Menechtarum. This is your level, and there are some very good things to get from the raid for a caster, mainly the Torc and Greenblade, that you will still use at cap.

Zenako
09-04-2011, 06:22 PM
In my opinion, for a cleric, being able to utilize the quick change ability of robes is seriously overrated. For a more core melee character, it can be a very powerful tweak and boost at times, but for a caster, most of the boons on robes can be cast anyway and often are.

I personally find using some armor with a nice DR provides a lot of benefits by mitigating damage from glancing or grazing blows. On my Rad Servant cleric with an aura up, it is almost like being immune to all but the most serious of hits. You can still have some special function armors, and yes changing from one set of plate to another takes a few seconds, but the vast majority of the time there is ample time to make that change ahead of time. Having a nice shield available helps too. You can shield block and in combo with DR effects manage to hold off even the highest level mobs for some time.

The Cavarly Plate from the Crystal Cove event is darn nice at many levels. I actually change armors on my capped cleric plate wearer more often than on my almost capped robe wearing cleric. (My plate cleric also is more than willing to jump into the middle of melee and help mix it up, while my more casting focused build is the robe wearer.)

ReaperAlexEU
09-04-2011, 07:25 PM
definitely aim for heavy fort, there are 3 main slots you can get it in. best is minos legens, a helm with 20 stacking HP from the orchard rares. guaranteed drop is the necklace from the black anvil mines sub quest, a FTP quest. a common drop found on the AH will be in the armour slot, either metal or fabric. you can also find it on a ring but that tends to be rarer and normally has a higher price tag.

heavy fort makes you immune to the extra damage criticals and sneak attacks do to you.

as for armour class, you're at the point where the AC curve starts to fly through the roof. a pot of barkskin is +3 natural AC (ranger will have +5 by now), thats the lowest hanging fruit but it might not make any real difference. making sure you're not the first to get aggro will probably help more than AC at this stage, that is assuming your in groups.

also focus on those spells, greater command can work wonders on melee trash, and soundburst should still work on the casters, though you may opt to use slay living instead. comet fall is a reflex save and will mean you have a spell to target will (command), fort (soundburst/insta kill) and finally reflex (comet fall its self). this trio of crowd control spells can save you a lot more spell points if used well than straight healing. naturally there is a balance to find but its well worth learning.

the game changes at lot now as you're starting to work through the historical level caps. initially the cap was lvl10, then they went 12, 14, 16 and finally 20. at each cap the players spent months at a time grinding out the best gear for their level. so come the cap raise the new quests had to be tougher to keep the players entertained. you feel the impact of this as the difficulty ramps up fast, that not to say it will be impossible to get through, its just learning pains.

Fejj
09-04-2011, 07:30 PM
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/aennae/

There is no protection cloak since it does not stack with shield of faith. I cannot find a good parrying weapon (still looking for one, possibly with a +2 if they do exist). I have a better shield banked (like +4 large with devotion on it).

What quest should be my first objective ? i have heard about giant hold but i m unsure.

Learn about the different types of AC bonuses. There are 11 or 12 I forget..

Here is a good post to start with - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=205669

Its old, but it will get you started

There is also the wiki - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=205669
But not as good as previous post.

There are other really good threads about it, I just can't them right now. With a little effort I'm sure you can dig them up.

Now my 2cp about AC, from level 1-10 its good to have but aftter that its all or nothing. You will find that a 30AC will be no different that a 1 AC.

"Usefull" AC is typically
Level 1-10 - 30-40AC
Gianthold (level 14ish) - 50AC
Vale (level 17ish - 60AC
Level 20 - 80AC
Epics - Forget it

So, if you can't hit the target numbers, (or get close) its not worth the time or gear. AC is great, but you really have to plan for it.

If you really want AC, just go through the list of bonus types and try to get your highest value.

Good Luck!!!

PurdueDave
09-04-2011, 09:18 PM
I wouldn't sweat it.

You're character is pretty OK. You'll want a superior ardor VI clicky or two and a superior potency VI item pretty soon.

If you want heavy fortification you can get it for free here.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1469951&postcount=195

You should be able to solo (so you there's no fuss, all the ore is yours) this on casual. You only need to do about half the quest to get the ore to turn in for your heavy fortification necklace. There's lots of shrines so doing the whole quest shouldn't be too bad.

Matuse
09-05-2011, 02:10 AM
Level 11 is about when AC stops mattering unless you have tons and tons of it. In order to have tons and tons of it, you need to have conceived your character from the start as an AC monster. You didn't, so getting valuable AC will simply not be possible.

Worry about your hitpoints more, which are somewhat low. Get the Minos Legens, pick up the Toughness feat at level 12.

aennae
09-05-2011, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the advices, i wonder if i have toughness.

If i take is there any enhancement that goes with it ?

I have a 75% crit avoidance shield in bank but it's a level 12 one.
.
I quite agree on the idea that gameplay change around 10-12, the issue is that swinging a sword cost no mana. Mass command is sweet but cost 25 or 20, sound burst is cheap and cool.

I would like to be better at using symbols but tank usually does not bring mob near to it. Moreover i cannot really figure out where it will land, when i try to target a location on ground it tells me to far. If it target myself it does not work. I can target a mob but then it will land where the mob was when i started to cast.

I more or less manage to use it solo, in group nobody care of it even if the pain one means -4 on mob dices.

ReaperAlexEU
09-05-2011, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the advices, i wonder if i have toughness.

If i take is there any enhancement that goes with it ?

I have a 75% crit avoidance shield in bank but it's a level 12 one.
.
I quite agree on the idea that gameplay change around 10-12, the issue is that swinging a sword cost no mana. Mass command is sweet but cost 25 or 20, sound burst is cheap and cool.

I would like to be better at using symbols but tank usually does not bring mob near to it. Moreover i cannot really figure out where it will land, when i try to target a location on ground it tells me to far. If it target myself it does not work. I can target a mob but then it will land where the mob was when i started to cast.

I more or less manage to use it solo, in group nobody care of it even if the pain one means -4 on mob dices.

one toughness is well worth getting. i believe its 1 feat and 3 action points for 42 HP come lvl20. some race/class combos get an even better deal from it.

at your level 100% crit avoidance should be your aim (heavy fort).

your play style will differ based on the quest and if you are in a group and how solid the group is. in a group i'd put CC and healing at the top of your list, then when the fight has settled in melee if you have the time. putting melee last like that will help you avoid aggro, and thus negate the AC problem. also letting the melee's engage before you acts will help to ensure your CC lands on target. the symbol type spells will be of little use in almost every group unless you're able to pre-empt and time a scripted mob spawn. so yeah, symbols are mostly just for soloing.

sirgog
09-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the advices, i wonder if i have toughness.

If i take is there any enhancement that goes with it ?

I have a 75% crit avoidance shield in bank but it's a level 12 one.
.

There are enhancements that go with Toughness. Check if your trainer offers you 'Racial Toughness 1'. If not, you don't have the feat.

I highly recommend getting your Fortification item (crit avoidance, as you put it) onto an accessory slot rather than a weapon/shield one, as you'll swap items in your hands often. If you own the Necro 4 pack, the Tattered Tapestries explorer area quest offers a helm with Heavy Fortification and a 20 stacking HP increase that's worth acquiring - if not, Relic of a Sovereign Past, soloed on Casual, has an optional that will give you a heavy fort necklace. Or you can search the Auction House for an 'Ancient Band', or just random lootgen Heavy Fort items.

AC is really difficult to keep effective beyond your current levels.

GuntherBovine
09-06-2011, 09:43 AM
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/aennae/

There is no protection cloak since it does not stack with shield of faith. I cannot find a good parrying weapon (still looking for one, possibly with a +2 if they do exist). I have a better shield banked (like +4 large with devotion on it).

What quest should be my first objective ? i have heard about giant hold but i m unsure.
Here are some suggestions:
1. Change your full plate from adamantine to mithral. That will increase your AC by 2 because of your dex bonus
2. Have a bracers or ring of natural armor bonus made. +3 is possible, but +2 is probably the reasonable top end. Barkskin potions also provide natural armor bonus
3. Have Shield of Faith and Recitation cast on you
4. Get a better shield. One choice is to follow the instructions here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=284046) for getting a heavy fort necklace but turn in the 10 ores for a Nightforge Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Aegis). Other options are farming rares in the Sands of Menechtarun for a Shield of the Scorpion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_of_the_Scorpion) or Coronation Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Coronation_Shield). I am about your level and I got my +5 Adamantine Shield while just running quests
5. Get the Combat Expertise feat. It gives you +5 AC for -5 to hit

Fearsome armor is really helpful for a melee to keep you from getting mobbed.

aennae
09-07-2011, 10:52 AM
Here are some suggestions:
1. Change your full plate from adamantine to mithral. That will increase your AC by 2 because of your dex bonus
2. Have a bracers or ring of natural armor bonus made. +3 is possible, but +2 is probably the reasonable top end. Barkskin potions also provide natural armor bonus
3. Have Shield of Faith and Recitation cast on you
4. Get a better shield. One choice is to follow the instructions here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=284046) for getting a heavy fort necklace but turn in the 10 ores for a Nightforge Aegis (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Aegis). Other options are farming rares in the Sands of Menechtarun for a Shield of the Scorpion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Shield_of_the_Scorpion) or Coronation Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Coronation_Shield). I am about your level and I got my +5 Adamantine Shield while just running quests
5. Get the Combat Expertise feat. It gives you +5 AC for -5 to hit

Fearsome armor is really helpful for a melee to keep you from getting mobbed.

Thanks.
I have mithral but only a +1, i use it when i need to jump or swim. I usually use the adamantine otherwise for dmg reduction.

I use recitation when mana allows it, amd yes shield of faith is always up (that why i have no +4 protection item).

I have a shield with 75% chance of avoiding crit but usually use the one that improves permanently my 1-5 heals, when i have time i use my ardor 6 clicky (which make the shield useless) but i only have like 6mn of effect per rest.

As i understand either you get the +5 shield or the 100% crt avoidance item ? Choosing will be tough.

What level are natural armor bracers ? My crafting is low (10/12/10) i just started it.

Not sure i will get defensive fighting soon, empower spell or maximize seems nice.

Currently i must have : toughness, empower healing, quicken, extend, one that gives extra mana (not sure abot the name). I may swap soon extend even if 20mn resist/free action are nice.

Zenako
09-07-2011, 11:21 AM
It would generally be an unwise use of Feats for a Cleric to spend them on defensive Feats instead of ones that help the other more prominent aspects of being a cleric. So probably should never really toss things like Combat Expertise into the mix.

The core point of AC is damage mitigation and avoidance. High pure AC avoids being hit in the first place. Having some DR reduces the impact of those hits that also make it past the AC. Spells like Blur and Displacement make enemy mobs simply miss you. Effective movement (player twitch) skills can keep you out of harms way from enemy attacks. Having Fortification reduces the impact of getting hit with Critical Hits or sneak attacks/flanking attacks from mobs with Rogue levels.

The Heavy Fort necklace made in the quest requires NO crafting skills, you just collect enough Ore from spots on the ground and turn them in to the smith at the end of the tunnel for the item you want. (You do have to fight your way to him however...) It used to be a highly sought after item many years ago, when it was one of the few items that had that property on it.

My goal on a cleric who worries about melee and AC at all is simply to have enough AC that some of the mobs in the quest have a chance of missing, that DR reduces the impact any hits that actually happen, and that I have Heavy Fort on to avoid massive hits from end game mobs when they critical. I do not worry about having enough AC to take on the bosses toe to toe, my spells do that.

GuntherBovine
09-07-2011, 11:59 AM
I have mithral but only a +1, i use it when i need to jump or swim. I usually use the adamantine otherwise for dmg reduction.
You need to get your crafting way up, but once you do, you can make the mithral armor whatever you want and it will keep the mithral property.


As i understand either you get the +5 shield or the 100% crt avoidance item ? Choosing will be tough.
There are 15 ores per run of the quest and you can run it multiple times. Soloing the quest means that you would get all 15. The cost in ore for useful items are:
+5 Adamantine Full Plate - 15
+5 Adamantine Heavy Shield - 15
Necklace of Heavy Fort - 10


What level are natural armor bracers ? My crafting is low (10/12/10) i just started it.
+1 is Level 15 Arcane
+2 is Level 30 Arcane
+3 is Level 69 Arcane

I am about your level and my crafting is 30 Arcane / 26 Divine / 26 Divine. I craft most of my equipment. I would say that you need to increase your crafting levels by at least 10 to make stuff that you are going to find useful.


Not sure i will get defensive fighting soon, empower spell or maximize seems nice.

Currently i must have : toughness, empower healing, quicken, extend, one that gives extra mana (not sure abot the name). I may swap soon extend even if 20mn resist/free action are nice.
I would probably drop Mental Toughness as you have lots of other sources for SP's. By taking Combat Expertise, you will save yourself the need to cast a lot of heals on yourself, thereby reducing the amount of SP's you need.

Let's talk about what your equipment should be assuming you are willing to run "A Relic of a Sovereign Past" multiple times:
Hat - Sacred Helm (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacred_Helm)
Necklace - Nightforge Gorget (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Gorget)
Goggles - Raven's Sight (http://ddowiki.com/page/Raven%27s_Sight)
Trinket - Voice of the Master (http://ddowiki.com/page/Voice_of_the_Master)
Armor - +5 Adamantine Full Plate (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Plate)
Cloak - +2 Charismatic Cloak of Resistance
Bracers - Ogre Power +4 Bracers of Shield of Faith
Belt - Health +4 Belt of Balance +3
Rings - Sacred Band (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacred_Band), Ring of the Mire (http://ddowiki.com/page/Ring_of_the_Mire)
Boots - Boots of the Mire (http://ddowiki.com/page/Boots_of_the_Mire)
Gloves - Dexterous +4 Gloves
Shield - +5 Adamantine Heavy Steel Shield (http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightforge_Aegis)

Looking at that, you have three different items providing DR (Ring, Armor, Shield). You could buy a +5 Heavy Steel Shield off the AH for pretty cheap. I recommend buying some more Superior Ardor clickies. Unless you are doing a quest where you need Deathblock, I wouldn't equip the Sacred Helm and get a hat that gives SP's.

Stitch78
09-07-2011, 02:33 PM
There is some very good advice in this thread and most of it focuses on the simple fact:

Your armor class has reached the end of its useful life. You can continue to focus on some damage reduction and damage avoidance. If you are taking a second rogue level for evasion, you need to understand that you will be limited to wearing robes or light armor, or evasion is de-activated. No shields either.

Do not invest a feat in Combat Expertise. All spell point costs are doubled while you are in the stance. And, as pointed out, you will not be able to work to a useable AC past your current level. By the time you hit level 16, if you do not have an AC of 55, you might as well have an AC of 2. Even with 55, you will not see "Miss" very often above your head.

For your current level, you can toggle on Defensive Fighting (a feat you already have - look in your feat list) for a +2 to AC but it de-activates when you cast a spell or use a clicky.

The best defense is a good offense - prepare and cast spells that prevent incoming damage like Greater Command, Commetfall, Soundburst (if you have Heighten), etc. Most of the damge from level 14 on is unavoidable for the average player - you just heal through it.

GuntherBovine
09-07-2011, 05:08 PM
There is some very good advice in this thread and most of it focuses on the simple fact:

Your armor class has reached the end of its useful life. You can continue to focus on some damage reduction and damage avoidance. If you are taking a second rogue level for evasion, you need to understand that you will be limited to wearing robes or light armor, or evasion is de-activated. No shields either.

Do not invest a feat in Combat Expertise. All spell point costs are doubled while you are in the stance. And, as pointed out, you will not be able to work to a useable AC past your current level. By the time you hit level 16, if you do not have an AC of 55, you might as well have an AC of 2. Even with 55, you will not see "Miss" very often above your head.

For your current level, you can toggle on Defensive Fighting (a feat you already have - look in your feat list) for a +2 to AC but it de-activates when you cast a spell or use a clicky.

The best defense is a good offense - prepare and cast spells that prevent incoming damage like Greater Command, Commetfall, Soundburst (if you have Heighten), etc. Most of the damge from level 14 on is unavoidable for the average player - you just heal through it.
Everything you say is probably true (I don't have the experience to say differently), but...

I think it is the OP's best interest to find out what is true for him. From his post, he is struggling with having to change from a battle cleric to a pure caster and maybe upping his AC will allow him to play his prefered battle cleric style for a little while longer. He is going to get Greater Command, Cometfall and Soundburst. I think everyone agrees that he should get the Nightforge Gorget. As long as he doesn't blow all his money trying to up his AC, he should give it his best shot. Then he will know for his play style if he can get his AC high enough to be worthwhile.

sirgog
09-07-2011, 06:47 PM
Everything you say is probably true (I don't have the experience to say differently), but...

I think it is the OP's best interest to find out what is true for him. From his post, he is struggling with having to change from a battle cleric to a pure caster and maybe upping his AC will allow him to play his prefered battle cleric style for a little while longer. He is going to get Greater Command, Cometfall and Soundburst. I think everyone agrees that he should get the Nightforge Gorget. As long as he doesn't blow all his money trying to up his AC, he should give it his best shot. Then he will know for his play style if he can get his AC high enough to be worthwhile.

As someone that's played a more 'battle-cleric' type build in the past, I'd like to point out that they run out of options for AC even before offensive caster clerics do.

By level 12, you can go one-handed weapon and shield and take ~8 hits to kill most mobs (who will hit you back 80% of the time), or two-hander and no shield, and take ~5 swings to kill most mobs (who return the favor 95% of the time). You take less damage with the latter approach.

On the other hand, an offensive caster build loses little from using a shield, unless they have one of the fairly rare good two-handed casting staves like the Staff of the Petitioner.

A better approach than AC on a Cleric is to accept you are going to be hit, and mitigate that damage when it happens.

aennae
09-07-2011, 06:50 PM
Actually i dinged 11 and now i kite stuff with blade barrier, mana is also less and less an issue. But still i kind of love the idea to fight a bit like a paladin would, at least as long as i can. Now i have quicken and heal 6 even not amplified fully heal me, i usually prefers heal 4.

The main issue i have is to low damage with a 1 hander, so i will try a 2 hand fighter priest since ths one will end up soon as a caster.

Anyway as long as i can i will melee trash, it's usually more mana efficient, radiant servant is free and heal 4 cost 20 mana (40 for a full heal).

aennae
09-09-2011, 12:09 PM
The idea of going with a two hander is interesting. Indeed i m trying a dwarft fighter/cleric using a 2 handed axe.

The reason is Damage reduction, if you hit for 15 on a 10 DR you do 5 damage but if you hit for 20 you do 25. So there is a big premium to big hits. Sadly i don't have access to two hander, i would need a tank level for that.

Now, my blade barrier hits foes 60 (with no amplification), so as soon as i get a bit of room it is often way more efficient and faster.

Haven't tried yet symbol of persuation or ice comet (the game forces me to load mass cure moderate that i don't use, and heal that i would load anyway), so i prefer to have BB on. I will probably get more prayer of smithing (i hope it works with BB).

Melee is working less and less, as example at 10/1 i did the vampire that gunter have in his journal (10 quest). Little gang were dispatched using symbol of pain, mass command and melee. But the boss would never had died from melee. Only searing ligth and divine punishment got him down.

So my enhancements will all go for improved spell damage, i may get defensive fighting too.

A last question i did the relic quest and took the heavy fort item. It seems that i cannot get the shield unless i give back the trinket. I don't remember getting a 5 adamantine shield as reward (they were nice but nothing was designed for me).

Also gunter mentionned a quested +5 shield, i did at 10/1 what he did at 10 a never got any +5 shield.
I even redid some at 11/1 to practise BB (it was almost too easy) and got no better luck.

JeffreyGator
09-09-2011, 12:37 PM
A better approach than AC on a Cleric is to accept you are going to be hit, and mitigate that damage when it happens.

I play an orc barbarian who has significant healing (which is sadly lacking in most barbarians) and agree very much with the above statement.

http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/thsnks/

Radiant servant II and swapping from the DR beater to a vampiric cleaver goes a long way toward keeping the character up until the cleaver and a blade barrier take stuff down.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Vampiric_Cleaver

Eventually as a cleric you will be followed about by an air elemental as well and mobs sitting down don't hit you.

aennae
09-09-2011, 01:17 PM
I play an orc barbarian who has significant healing (which is sadly lacking in most barbarians) and agree very much with the above statement.

http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/thsnks/

Radiant servant II and swapping from the DR beater to a vampiric cleaver goes a long way toward keeping the character up until the cleaver and a blade barrier take stuff down.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Vampiric_Cleaver

Eventually as a cleric you will be followed about by an air elemental as well and mobs sitting down don't hit you.

I m trying a dwarf like that, but people told me to take fighter for the extra feat. I suggested that paladin or barb could be cool -- paladin for save and aura, barb for ?? rage may be -- but most people replied that it was not the best choice due to the fighter extra feat.

What is the reason for Barb instead of fighter ? is that rage?

nibel
09-10-2011, 10:57 AM
There are 15 ores per run of the quest and you can run it multiple times. Soloing the quest means that you would get all 15. The cost in ore for useful items are:
+5 Adamantine Full Plate - 15
+5 Adamantine Heavy Shield - 15
Necklace of Heavy Fort - 10

(...)

Let's talk about what your equipment should be assuming you are willing to run "A Relic of a Sovereign Past" multiple times:

Even if you run Relic a thousand times, you can only get one adamantine item from the forger. If you gather more ore and select other item, he will take back your first one. The only way to have 2 nightforged items are by TRing (that reset the "you have a nightforged item" flag).

GuntherBovine
09-10-2011, 03:53 PM
Even if you run Relic a thousand times, you can only get one adamantine item from the forger. If you gather more ore and select other item, he will take back your first one. The only way to have 2 nightforged items are by TRing (that reset the "you have a nightforged item" flag).
Thanks for that clarification

t0r012
09-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Full plate of the giants or stonemeld full plate for the dr/5 is the way to go IMO.
Stonemeld come from Von raid loot so it is tougher to aquire than full plate of the giants which come from tempest spine but it is unbound so you can buy on the AH.

Next grab a natural armor bonus from the ring of balance form turn ins from the invaders quest , has a nice kicker of a high balance plus that is great for anyone. I think it is a + 3 natural so if you don't feel like chugging barks in pots it work great till you need your ring slot.