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Travst
08-25-2011, 10:56 AM
I've been following Illuminati's second iteration build for a Tempest Ranger. My question is... with all the game changes in the last two years, is this still a good choice? The build appears below. I'd welcome any suggestions or comments. I've researched this topic, but most of the information is at least two years old. Thanks!

From the original thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=132590:
PURE CLASS You will no doubt see a multitude of multi-class builds out there but if Superior Two-Weapon Fighting and Tempest II are slated for level 15, you will not regret your choice in staying pure.

Race: Drow Elf
Class: Ranger
Alignment: Neutral Good
32 Point Build

Starting in ( )’s
22 STR (14) *6 Points (+6 Item, +2 Ram's Might)
36 DEX (19) *13 Points (+6 Item, +4 Level, +5 Enhancement, +2 Favor Tome)
18 CON (12) *6 Points (+6 Item)
10 INT (10)
18 WIS (11) *3 Points (+6 Item, +1 Tome)
10 CHA (10)

*************
The flavor of the month seems to be Drow because of the Greensteel options but Elf is a very viable alternative.

Race: Elf
Class: Ranger
Alignment: Neutral Good
32 Point Build

Starting in ( )’s
24 STR (15) *8 Points, (+6 Item, +1 Tome, +2 Ram's Might)
36 DEX (19) *13 Points, (+6 Item, +4 Level, +5 Enhancement, +2 Favor Tome)
20 CON (13) *8 Points, (+6 Item, +1 Tome)
8 INT (8)
18 WIS (11) *3 Points, (+6 Item, +1 Tome)
8 CHA (8)

*************

HP:
+20 Heroic Durability
+128 (Levels x16)
+80 Con Modifier
+18 Toughness Helm
+30 Greater False Life Item
+10 Favor
---------
+286

Saves (no buffs):
+10/+10/+5 Base
+5/+13/+4 Stats
+5/+5/+5 Resistance Item
+0/+0/+2 Drow / Elf
+0/+0/+3 Enhancement
-----------
+20/+28/+19 (no buffs)
+24/+32/+23 (Greater Heroism)

Armour Class:
+10 Base
+13 Dexterity
+6/8 Armor Bracers
+5 Barkskin
+5 Protection
+4 Insight Bonus (Greensteel Short Sword)
+4 Dodge (Feat, Ring)
+2 Enhancement: Tempest
+0/4 Shield Spell (Clicky's, get as many as you can)
------------
53/55
58 (vs. Favored)

Note: Add in +1 for Haste, +4 Paladins Aura or certain group mixes are you are TWF DPSn at 60+ AC!

Feats:
1) Wep Finesse, *Bow Strength, *Favored Enemy: Undead
2) *Two-Weapon Fighting, *Rapid Shot
3) Dodge, *Diehard
4) <Dexterity Level Up>
5) *Favored Enemy: Giants
6) Mobility, *Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, *Many-Shot
7)
8) <Dexterity Level Up>
9) Improved Critical: Pierce, *Evasion
10) *Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders
11) *Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12) Spring Attack, **Tempest Enhancement, <Dexterity Level Up>
15) Power Attack, *Superior Two-Weapon Fighting, *Favored Enemy: Constructs
16) <Dexterity Level Up>

*Automatically granted to Ranger class
**After testing, I prefer the Tempest enhancement at level 12 since IC: Pierce is much more valuable before then

Attack: (Main Hand)
+16 BaB
+13 Dexterity
+5 Weapon
+2 Drow/Elven Melee Attack Enhancement
-2 Dual Wielding
+0/-5 Power Attack
+0/+4 Greater Heroism
------------
+34
+38 w/ Greater Heroism

Attack Progression: (Wounding / Puncturing or Power Attack / DPSn)
+38/+38/+43/+43/+43/+43/+48/+48/+48/+48/+48

Progression:
Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 8
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 12 *Favor Tome

Feat/Enhancement
Modified Skills
Skills (Level 16)
Balance 19
Hide 29
Jump 19
Move Silently 29
Spot 13
Tumble 16
Use Magic Device 9.5

Level 1 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus (Drow)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I

Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I

Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I

Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I

Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II

Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II

Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I

Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II

Level 9 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III

Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II

Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III

Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I

Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II

Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance III

Level 15 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV

Level 16 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense III
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II


Skill Points:
UMD, Tumble, Hide, Sneak, Spot, Jump, Balance

FrozenNova
08-25-2011, 11:36 AM
I, uh..

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the level cap is 20.

That build was originally a finesse build based around WoPs that no longer function.
Finesse rangers are since not done.

Ranger damage is already poor - contributing by starting with 14 str does not help matters.

Travst
08-25-2011, 11:48 AM
Thanks, FN. That's exactly what I was looking for. I should have mentioned that my char is only level 3. Is it possible to move forward and make the char viable, or is a re-roll in order? I confess that I have no experience in "real" D&D, so I find DDO a bit confusing. I looked at the character generator, but honestly can't tell a good build from bad.

EustaceTrevelyan
08-25-2011, 11:59 AM
Thanks, FN. That's exactly what I was looking for. I should have mentioned that my char is only level 3. Is it possible to move forward and make the char viable, or is a re-roll in order? I confess that I have no experience in "real" D&D, so I find DDO a bit confusing. I looked at the character generator, but honestly can't tell a good build from bad.


EDIT, since bobthesponge says the ranger-shunning period is over. Still want to make sure you gear up/build up imho, since it's easier to mess up a ranger than it is something like a barb:) good luck

But I'm going to +1 for all the people who came out in defense of the Tempest, since that was my first char, and always had a soft spot. Also, although it's perfectly POSSIBLE to make a finesse build, I would (and this is IMHO, but i have company) advise against it if you're just going melee, since they've steadily taken the gas out of finesse, and the addition of more fort is probably almost the final nail. But also, there are soooo many strength buffs available end game that it's not worth the feat.

SisAmethyst
08-25-2011, 12:27 PM
Tempest or better Exploiter builds can still be viable (most DPS at level 20 come from gear and buffs) but aren't top notch anymore as they have once been, especially as AC doesn't matter anymore at higher levels or take an insane grind. In other words the reason to bump DEX higher then 17 (needed for ITWF if not a Ranger) isn't as important and better served in STR and CON (you should try to get above 300HP as a melee). Also the maximum spell level of a ranger is 4 which mean you only need a max of 10+4 in WIS to cast all spells which is perfectly doable by dumping WIS to 8 and using a +6 stat item.

If you are only level 3 I would suggest to reroll as it is faster and cheaper then to reincarnate.

As an example you may take a look at Tempest Trapmonkey (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277496), Ranger Exploit build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336571) if you still want to stick to a Ranger build.

Bobthesponge
08-25-2011, 12:42 PM
OP,

You can safely ignore what EustaceTrevelyan said. Rangers are fine in end game and are not shunned except by people who don't know how DDO works. You will see poorly played rangers but you will also see poorly played barbarians, clerics, sorcs, ect.

As stated, this is an old, old build and is out of date. Ranger tempest is still an excellent choice and when switching between manyshot and TWF can produce top end DPS. You will probably want to stay away from Drow though - the -2 CON hit is tough to overcome, but not impossible.

I would advise a reroll as lvl 3 isn't that far in and now you will at least have learned some basics so the first few levels will just fly by.

FrozenNova
08-25-2011, 12:48 PM
You can still build a perfectly functional melee versatile ranger that, while not up there with fighters or barbarians, is nonetheless a powerful character. Rangers excel in versatility. Just - not quite like that.

Human 32. 18 ranger / 1 fighter / 1 rogue
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8
Skills: Spot, search, disable, umd, spare in open locks
Rogue at level 1, fighter at level 8.
Levelups in strength.
1) Power attack
1h) Dodge
3) Mobility
6) Toughness
8f) Improved critical
9) Spring attack
12) Khopesh
15) Toughness or Quicken.
18) Oversized two weapon fighting.
THF until 12, then dual khopeshes.
Favored enemies - Evil outsider, construct, undead, dragon.
The capacity to deal with traps, umd heal scrolls, maintain reasonable self-healing with amp, pull out manyshot when needed, while using haste boost 1 and human damage 5 for burst damage, makes for a highly capable toon that can hold its own against the bosses that count.
For a variation, go 18/2 fighter, dropping int and boosting dex, taking quicken and maximize as spare feats and stealth skills in place of traps. The combination of metamagics gives you significant self-healing capacity, boosted significantly by acquisition of the torc and suchlike.

On another note, if you're unfamiliar with Dnd, you're likely unfamiliar with DDO's combat mechanics.
Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337342)I've attempted to write a brief guide to melee combat mechanics - and here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4019920) there's my explanation of saves and spells.

Travst
08-25-2011, 01:03 PM
Great responses here and it's given me a lot to think about. I have no problem with re-rolling to get a better char. The Trapmonkey build looks a lot like FN's suggested build and both give me what I want in terms of melee ability and stealth/traps capability.

Mercureal
08-25-2011, 01:08 PM
As people have said, Tempest Rangers can do fine at end game; additionally, the whole grouping experience is better at high levels when you're in a guild, and if you join one that will alleviate a lot of the problem with finding groups. I mostly run in guild groups, but I haven't run into problems getting into other groups where I'm unknown.

That said, there are some things to consider. A Ranger's big strength is versatility - decent melee, ranged Manyshot, a lot of skill points, some good buffing spells, and self-healing all in one package. But if you don't want the extras and mostly want to be a combat monster, you'll do more damage with Fighter or Barbarian.

If you do stay Ranger, there's no reason to stay pure since Rangers gain a lot from multi-classing and lose little. A good option is the rogue/fighter splash; similar to that is the monk/rogue splash, which lets you also get an AC into the 70s if you want to search out the gear for it at higher levels. And if you don't want rogue skills or AC, you can go Fighter 2 for some strength, feats and more HP.

Finally, some variations on the build FrozenNova gave you (which is solid, BTW). At level 15 you could take Maximize instead, to really power up your self-healing (with healing AMP and boosts to healing power you can get Cure Serious up around 200 a shot). If you want to build a beefier Ranger, choose Dwarf instead of Human - you can get several points more in Con and extra Racial Toughness, and go with Dwarven Axes instead of Khopesh; DAxes do almost as much damage with Dwarf weapon enhancements and good ones are much cheaper and more readily available while levelling.

Bobthesponge
08-25-2011, 01:20 PM
Great responses here and it's given me a lot to think about. I have no problem with re-rolling to get a better char. The Trapmonkey build looks a lot like FN's suggested build and both give me what I want in terms of melee ability and stealth/traps capability.

If you do use that build just remember it is VERY important to grab Rogue at level 1. You will get 4x the skill points at creation and rogue has the most skill points. Anything else is a waste of skill points and will hurt your trap/sneak/other rogue skill abilities.

Travst
08-25-2011, 01:32 PM
I have to admit... the idea of a Dwarven Ranger tickles me. Good rep all around for you kind folks.

Now, with regard to healing instead of toughness - I assume that the primary advantages are easier soloing (get a hireling other than a cleric?), taking a load off the group cleric, or being able to heal when there's no cleric handy. (I remember a quote in EQ... "No worries, we have a ranger to heal!) If I choose Dwarf, do the racial characteristics overcome doing Maximize instead of Toughness or Quicken?

FrozenNova
08-25-2011, 02:02 PM
Dwarf - +3 con, +1 toughness enhancements, for a total of 30-50 hitpoints (depending on con bracket) over human if you take *all* the enhancements. Rangers have a low hit die for a melee, d8, so hitpoints are often a concern.

You can still heal without maximize or quicken (and is technically most sp-efficient to do so). However, maximize and quicken provide the ability to heal quickly even while under attack. However, on an 18/1/1 you only get one of those. Since CSW was made cheaper recently I'd go for quicken rather than maximize - maximize is for fast healing in combat, but if you can't get the spell off in combat anyway, it's pointless. To use maximize without quicken requires a high concentration, which you can't do if you're going for rogue skills.

Remember that human grants 1.3 healing amp, which is big, since healing amp stacks multiplicatively.
A human with 1.1 and 1.2 amp gear and 1.1 guild shrine will have 1.88 amp.
The dwarf will have 1.452, so the human is a leg up on healing.

Khopesh versus daxe (I'm bad at maths):
GS khopesh: 1d10, 17-20/x3.
GS daxe: 2d8+2, 19-20/x3.
For d as damage bonus not including dwarven enhancements:
Khopesh over 20 swings: 19(d+5.5)+4*2(d+5.5), or 27d+148.5
Daxe over 20 swings: 19(d+11)+2*2(d+11), or 23d+253
Khopesh over Daxe: 4d-104.5
So... if your base damage bonus excluding daxe enhancements is above 26.125, khopesh is better than daxe. This is practically guranteed. A mediocre damage bonus of 30 would put khopesh at 958.5 and daxe at 943 - at which point khopesh is slightly above daxe - though disparity will increase as damage bonus increases. Also notable is that weapon effects such as elemental burst and seeker favor khopesh's superior crit range.

Notable is that dwarf doesn't have human damage 5, which is getting a huge boost after update 11, and becoming a +25% damage boost.

So fundamentally, dwarf trades a chunk of damage, healing amp, burst damage, 1 umd and a skill point for a big chunk of hitpoints, +2 to hit and some saves. I think it comes down on the human side, all said and done - but play what you prefer. The +2 to hit is significant in epics, where without your favored enemy bonuses you'll have trouble hitting, and if both +2 to hit are making a difference, that's practically a 10% damage boost right there.

Edit: I knew I did something dumb - used full crit multiplier instead of multiplier -1
Fixing...

Edit2: fixed. Having not played a ranger, I'm not sure what damage bonus is typical, but the concept is there.

Travst
08-25-2011, 02:10 PM
GREAT explanation there, FN.

Travst
08-25-2011, 02:42 PM
Skills: Spot, search, disable, umd, spare in open locks



FN, are you saying that ALL skill points should be put into these skills?

Anyone have thoughts on enhancements?

FrozenNova
08-25-2011, 02:59 PM
FN, are you saying that ALL skill points should be put into these skills?

Anyone have thoughts on enhancements? The build that SisAmethyst posted, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277496 looks pretty good to me.

I didn't fully plan the skills as it's a fairly time consuming affair to manage crossclass skills with multiple splashes - I just put down what you'll need.
Ultimately, at 12 int on a human, your ranger levels will have 8 skillpoints. Spot and search are ranger class skills, so that's 2 points. Disable and UMD is crossclass, another four. You don't need jump, since rangers can cast it and you'll have more than 30 strength to make it up to 40.
You don't need max ranks in open locks. I'd recommend ten ranks as a baseline. More than that is realistically overkill with buffs and lock gear. That's roughly one skillpoint per level, so you have one ranger class skill left to almost-max.

Other skills to consider - if you drop dex to 14 and up int to 14, you could probably have hide and move silently too. If you want to cast or scroll in combat, you want to max concentration. Doing this would justify maximize instead of quicken. Balance is fairly nice since ranger strength is not the insane values of barbarians or surging fighters.

Your rogue level will have more skillpoints, your fighter level will have less. You'll have to put a penalty in one of your side skills for the fighter level.

ReaperAlexEU
08-25-2011, 03:03 PM
one very important thing which seems to have been missed so far, a tempest ranger only needs 13 DEX to unlock dodge, thats all. they do NOT need to hit 17 DEX for the better TWF feats as they will get that for free, even if they have 8 DEX. the tempest prestige does require dodge, which has a requirement of 13 DEX, thats the only reason you need DEX for your melee prowess.

thats something that hasnt changed and the main reason why that age old build you have found is flawed. when the player base realised rangers could be highly STR focused they then started to really show everyone what rangers were capable of. a typical non-ranger TWF build will need 15-17 base DEX (depending on access to tomes), by comparison a ranger only needs 13 DEX, this leaves more room for STR and CON making rangers the best newbie friendly TWF builds.

you also only need 8 WIS to cast every ranger spell in the game. in the long run 8 WIS with a +6 WIS item will get you 14 WIS, enough to cast the lvl4 spells. having said that 10-12 WIS would be a lot easier as you dont need to find those high +WIS items as soon, which would make it more newbie friendly. going for the full 14 WIS at creation would be a waste of build points though

FrozenNova has given you a much better template to work with, the fighter and rogue splash are a nice addition to versatility. while you'll enjoy the traps early on its when you get UMD up to heal scroll levels that the value of the rogue splash really shows through.

i would suggest you drop DEX to 14 though and push WIS up a little, in the long run 8 WIS is a good thing, however on your first toon having a small amount invested in WIS will make life much easier.

FrozenNova
08-25-2011, 03:05 PM
one very important thing which seems to have been missed so far, a tempest ranger only needs 13 DEX to unlock dodge, thats all. they do NOT need to hit 17 DEX for the better TWF feats as they will get that for free, even if they have 8 DEX. the tempest prestige does require dodge, which has a requirement of 13 DEX, thats the only reason you need DEX for your melee prowess.

thats something that hasnt changed and the main reason why that age old build you have found is flawed. when the player base realised rangers could be highly STR focused they then started to really show everyone what rangers were capable of. a typical non-ranger TWF build will need 15-17 base DEX (depending on access to tomes), by comparison a ranger only needs 13 DEX, this leaves more room for STR and CON making rangers the best newbie friendly TWF builds.

you also only need 8 WIS to cast every ranger spell in the game. in the long run 8 WIS with a +6 WIS item will get you 14 WIS, enough to cast the lvl4 spells. having said that 10-12 WIS would be a lot easier as you dont need to find those high +WIS items as soon, which would make it more newbie friendly. going for the full 14 WIS at creation would be a waste of build points though

FrozenNova has given you a much better template to work with, the fighter and rogue splash are a nice addition to versatility. while you'll enjoy the traps early on its when you get UMD up to heal scroll levels that the value of the rogue splash really shows through.

i would suggest you drop DEX to 14 though and push WIS up a little, in the long run 8 WIS is a good thing, however on your first toon having a small amount invested in WIS will make life much easier.

Dex still powers your evasion. Rangers are the class that actually need to work on their reflex saves in order to have a useful evasion.

I'd always take another skillpoint over casting level 1 spells slightly earlier. Rangers can do nice things with skillpoints.

ReaperAlexEU
08-25-2011, 03:33 PM
Dex still powers your evasion. Rangers are the class that actually need to work on their reflex saves in order to have a useful evasion.

I'd always take another skillpoint over casting level 1 spells slightly earlier. Rangers can do nice things with skillpoints.

yes, but i thought it was important to point out why rangers dont need DEX through the roof so the readers can learn why the linked build went the wrong way with finesse. 15 DEX +3 enhancement is +1 reflex over 14 DEX +2 enhancement. thats 6 action points and 2 build points for +1 reflex, evasion is one of the best feats in the game but i think thats a fair trade to make for an easier time levelling up.

i know vets should dump WIS to 8, but they also have a chance of buying the clean stat items at min level. i know being able to cast ranger spells at lvl4 isnt massively important, but i also know it can be a source of frustration when a newbies wants to play with their new abilities (newbie hint: get rams might as your first ranger spell).

so while 15 DEX or 14 DEX isnt going to break a build either way i think its worth weighing up, perfection vs easier levelling

and yes, if you do go 14 DEX you could also then compare boosting WIS a little to boosting INT for more skill points. it would depend a lot on how the skills are looking though. search, disable and UMD are the 3 must haves to make the rogue splash worth while, but there are tons of extra skills that would also be nice. like spot so you dont walk into a trap before finding it or open lock as locked things always drive explorers nuts :)

Travst
08-25-2011, 03:44 PM
I've been playing with a character generator... this is driving me nuts! Too many choices... I think I'll limit my enhancements to the areas suggested, learn more about the char, then build it out.

At level 3:

LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Male Human
Alignment Selected: Lawful Good
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 16, DEX: 15, CON: 16, INT: 12
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Disable Device +4 (4), Hide +4 (4), Listen +4 (4), Move Silently +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4), Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +4 (4), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Dodge, Power Attack
Enhancements Selected: Improved Disable Device I, Improved Search I, Improved Spot I, Improved Open Lock I
LEVEL 2
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 1 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (5), Open Lock +1 (5), Search +1 (5), Spot +1 (5), UMD +1 (5)
Feats Selected: Favored Enemy (Undead)
Enhancements Selected: Improved Balance I
LEVEL 3
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (6), Open Lock +1 (6), Search +1 (6), Spot +1 (6), UMD +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Skill Focus (Disable Device)
Enhancements Selected: Ranger Dexterity I, Rogue Improved Trap Sense I, Ranger Favored Damage I, Ranger Favored Defense I

Bobthesponge
08-25-2011, 05:13 PM
...thats something that hasnt changed and the main reason why that age old build you have found is flawed...



The build isn't flawed - it is a product of it's time. Back when the level cap was 16 end game AC was viable and people built toons around it. That is the reason for the high dex - you could stroll through the vale and not get hit by anything and then take your banishers/WoP rapiers and just mow stuff down.

The game mechanics have changed and the build is now obsolete, but don't insult it by calling it flawed.

Vulgari
08-25-2011, 05:23 PM
I've been playing with a character generator... this is driving me nuts! Too many choices... I think I'll limit my enhancements to the areas suggested, learn more about the char, then build it out.

At level 3:

LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Male Human
Alignment Selected: Lawful Good
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 16, DEX: 15, CON: 16, INT: 12
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Disable Device +4 (4), Hide +4 (4), Listen +4 (4), Move Silently +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4), Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +4 (4), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Dodge, Power Attack
Enhancements Selected: Improved Disable Device I, Improved Search I, Improved Spot I, Improved Open Lock I
LEVEL 2
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 1 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (5), Open Lock +1 (5), Search +1 (5), Spot +1 (5), UMD +1 (5)
Feats Selected: Favored Enemy (Undead)
Enhancements Selected: Improved Balance I
LEVEL 3
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (6), Open Lock +1 (6), Search +1 (6), Spot +1 (6), UMD +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Skill Focus (Disable Device)
Enhancements Selected: Ranger Dexterity I, Rogue Improved Trap Sense I, Ranger Favored Damage I, Ranger Favored Defense I

...but if you insist on going forward with this project, I'd advise dumping Listen and putting those 4 skill pts in something you'll actually use like Haggle (unless you have a haggle bot). Also, no need to put more than the starting 4 pts in Open Lock. Put the additional points in Balance.

Travst
08-25-2011, 06:23 PM
Makes sense, I dumped listen for haggle.

AbyssalMage
08-26-2011, 01:42 AM
I've been playing with a character generator... this is driving me nuts! Too many choices...
Don't feel bad. I started playing back when Sony got hacked and been playing as much as a wife and 2 babies will let me. I also planned to purchase a +2 Tome from the DDO store in order to upgrade my account to premium so I went 8 Wisdom at Char creation. So far honestly though, I haven't had a great desire to cast spells. And when I do, I cast Long Strider, not Ram's because I rather get through the adventure faster than hit a few mobs harder for a very limited time. That and I really don't have the spell points to cast Ram's or Long Strider more than once or twice between shrines until I find a piece of gear to upgrade Power (1, 2, or 3) and Wizard 1 focus. If you want to hit the mob's harder, grab a few potions/wands of STR +4 when you fight a named, a lot easier than casting Ram's. At least currently for me as a new player also.

Can't comment about evasion though, still don't have it (Not a level 9 Ranger yet) and not really sure what my reflex save (evasion) will be at 20 or what it needs to be to avoid AoE's with any great chance. I know most people want to min/max so they only need to roll a "2" to avoid 100% damage, but I'm fine with a 50%+ chance on my first life/28 pt build. I'll still be gunning for a +6 Dex item and any other stacking items/Click's to help out once I'm 20 though :)

Elf Ranger 5/1/1 - I had to be a pointy ear...Almost wished I went Human for the extra feat but I needed the style and nostalgia. (And my guild doesn't care about race, only how you play so that helps)

ReaperAlexEU
08-26-2011, 07:10 AM
The build isn't flawed - it is a product of it's time. Back when the level cap was 16 end game AC was viable and people built toons around it. That is the reason for the high dex - you could stroll through the vale and not get hit by anything and then take your banishers/WoP rapiers and just mow stuff down.

The game mechanics have changed and the build is now obsolete, but don't insult it by calling it flawed.

i'm not trying to insult the build, i'm trying to highlight why we dont build like that any more. at that period of time i was making my 8 CON rogue with no HP gear or fort! i know i was making a bigger mistake than a 12 CON finesse ranger, but even so both were mistakes.

the build was for a lvl cap of 10, and yes those drow were hard to hit but i'm sure a well build STR based ranger wouldnt have been that far behind my fighter if they chose drow as a FE (we still base FE's on end game content) and my fighter was hitting them just fine.

by the lvl cap of 16 STR based rangers were the norm, hell, we even had STR based TWF barbarians with WoP rapiers and heavy picks and the barbarian crit threat enhancement. i have a nice build from that era that could hit end game AC in the vale and was mostly ranger, that was STR and is still good even today. sadly amrath was released while i was levelling up so i never did the grind to gather all the AC bits, just didnt seem worth the effort when compared to the amrath AC requirement. i think at that point stat damage was negated if you didnt punch through the mobs DR, so finesse builds we're already starting to feel the pain.

so for todays newbies one key thing to learn about rangers is how little they actually need DEX. many newbies see the name "ranger" and assume its got its named from being a "ranged" class, while its really more like a park ranger, someone who lives off the land and tends to the forrest. in a similar manner many newbies look up the TWF feats and see the high DEX requirements but also dont realise rangers get them even if they dont meet those requirements. so i'm posting in here to ensure any newbies reading this understand why we build the way we do today. DEX is great for evasion, and of course for an archer, but even then its all too easy to over invest by mistake.

landofshishio
08-26-2011, 07:31 AM
Well, it depends on what you want to do. Do you want to be a character that, without people knowing you (since of course they won't, lol), will be sought after for higher level content? Ranger not the way to go, and I have two of em. If you want a melee role, then just go barb, tbh, or fighter if you like. If you want the versatility of ranger (healing wands at level 1, etc), you could go fighter/barb with a helf ranger dilletante, if you're going TWF anyway. Course, they can't buff other people with barkskin, but AC has been heavily deemphasized.


I am in no way saying a ranger can't be a viable character, but it's a hard road, and you're not going to find open arms PUGwise at end game. Ranger Tempest in theory allows you to dump dex and still get all TWF feats, but then your ranger evasion is less effective as your reflex will be lower.

If you really love the ranger, by all means go for it. Just be prepared for a bit of having to prove yourself along the way. Good luck

Well in my case i have done a 12 ranger/ 6barb/2 fighter, give me most of ranger spell except last spell lvl so no fom :( but i have 800 hp, with 40 fort, 40 dex, 35 will. This toon can do most epic w/o a problem to hit also. The barksin is maxed at lvl 12 so u can still retain the +5 natural from it and cast it over other in party too. the only problem is msot spell will be only 12 min long. My dps is quite good too since i can get my str up to 62.

Travst
08-26-2011, 09:13 AM
Thanks for all the input, feel free to post more. I leveled my new char to 2 last night and he worked out very well. Of course, it's way to early to tell much, but it does suit my playing style so far. I'll be researching builds and particularly enhancements to get my progression figured out.

I really appreciate all your help. This is a great discussion.

EustaceTrevelyan
08-26-2011, 12:54 PM
OP,

You can safely ignore what EustaceTrevelyan said. Rangers are fine in end game and are not shunned except by people who don't know how DDO works. You will see poorly played rangers but you will also see poorly played barbarians, clerics, sorcs, ect.

As stated, this is an old, old build and is out of date. Ranger tempest is still an excellent choice and when switching between manyshot and TWF can produce top end DPS. You will probably want to stay away from Drow though - the -2 CON hit is tough to overcome, but not impossible.

I would advise a reroll as lvl 3 isn't that far in and now you will at least have learned some basics so the first few levels will just fly by.


I apologize, admittedly I gave up on my ranger at 11 based on forums comments about general lack of ranger uber. Looks like i can't believe everything i read on the forums, lol:)

+1 to bob for the correction, and for giving us rangers hope!


Also for this alone, I'd +1 you again (some really high-quality discussion in this thread. sadly not by me, but oh well):


The build isn't flawed - it is a product of it's time. Back when the level cap was 16 end game AC was viable and people built toons around it. That is the reason for the high dex - you could stroll through the vale and not get hit by anything and then take your banishers/WoP rapiers and just mow stuff down.

The game mechanics have changed and the build is now obsolete, but don't insult it by calling it flawed.

Very good explanation of why this build to begin with. But now that they nerfed first WoP (wounding of puncturing, wounding 1 pt of Con dmg/hit, punct 1d6 on crits, which were happening 30% of the time with that build, took con to 0, which in the bad old days was insta kill. Now of course, 0 stats on mobs just stun, and anything but trash (and not sure even them) can only take 10 pts of con dmg.) and then banishing (not a crit effect anymore, just straight damage/hit plus a vorpal effect) and now crits themselves with the fort additions, you're better off with straight strength and buffs and chip away at the HP.

Travst
08-26-2011, 01:19 PM
I got the xp, but didn't formally level my char last night with my trainer. I'm tinkering with a build that takes FN's specs, adds the haggle that Vulgari suggested, builds on other suggestions, and generally follows the build here while using FN's feats.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2800940&postcount=16

Vulgari, I'm curious as to why you don't recommend taking open locks past the initial 4 points?

SisAmethyst
08-26-2011, 01:43 PM
Well some remarks:

1. About Skills:
As already mentioned will Listen and Spot help you to notice hidden creatures. However, as Spot as well helps you for noticing traps, it is the better of both and therefore Listen obsolete. Tumble is nice to have some points but I wouldn't bump it any much further as the minimum needed to be able to tumble around is 1 (final modifier value with equipped armor). Open lock is in the same ball park as tumble as there are rarely doors/chests that need a high lock skill and while you may explode a trap box on a failed attempt you can try a lock as often as you have pick locks. Further you often have trapper item to swap in that provide a bonus of up to +15 points. I don't know a single lock that is mandatory to open in DDO to complete a quest. Needless to say that a Mage that can swap in a knock spell can open nearly everything a Rogue can and those spell even exist as a wand.

Next are Move Silently and Hide which are nice for some quests like 'The Claw of Vulkoor' in the Red Fens but most of the time an invisible spell or potion will do the trick just fine as well as several items may provide you with more then enough bonus (e.g. Accomplice (http://ddowiki.com/page/Accomplice)) for the cases you need that. Jump is a skill that is capped somewhere around 40 and the regular Jump potions of +20 are usually more then enough.
Balance helps you to either stay on your feet or get back up faster if you got knocked down but for a ranger that already has some DEX a value of 10-15 should be more then enough. Concentration is important for Monks and Spell Casters. However the Ranger usually use the SP for the buffing which often happens before a fight where no concentration check is needed. Healing in the middle of a fight is problematic as if you stand that close to a mob to get hit to need a concentration check the heal you probably will cast will be more or less mitigated by the damage you take from the next hit anyway.

That leaves you with the most important skills as Disable Device, Search and Spot. You should try to keep Disable maxed but try to avoid leaving a skill at 0.5 as only full points count. If you have spare points you can add them to either Open Lock, Jump or Balance.

2. About Enhancements:
Luckily those can be reset fairly easy. Most focus you should take is to either increase your combat/damage ability or your survivability. That mean that enhancements like 'Improved Open Lock I' are better served in something like 'Racial Toughness I' or '... Melee Attack I'. For reason you may want to look at the skill 'Open Lock' and its low importance in the game. Also via the Rogue/Ranger skill bonus you can temporary buff all Rogue/Ranger skills for a short time that stack with all other enhancements/items but one will lock out the other (so take preferable Rogue).

Some Enhancements are pre requirements for others, especially the Prestige Enhancements. You can see currently hidden one and their requirements if you select the little check box below the Enhancement list. However 'Ranger Tempest I' only has a feat. requirements if I am not mistaken, while 'Ranger Tempest II' needs Ranger Dexterity I and II.

FrozenNova
08-26-2011, 01:46 PM
I got the xp, but didn't formally level my char last night with my trainer. I'm tinkering with a build that takes FN's specs, adds the haggle that Vulgari suggested, builds on other suggestions, and generally follows the build here while using FN's feats.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2800940&postcount=16

Vulgari, I'm curious as to why you don't recommend taking open locks past the initial 4 points?

Lock DC's are really low. Very few people ever max it, though how far they do take it is a matter of personal preference (and how long you want to spend rolling a 20 for some of the harder ones). I say ten or eleven simply because that's a reasonable amount that won't require heavy buffs for every lock, but if you want to invest those skills elsewhere such as hide and move silently, 4 points is probably managable.

The haggle suggestion, most likely, was aimed exclusively at that first rogue level, where you have so many skillpoints it's more of a matter of what you don't start with. Haggle is not a ranger class skill, and takes 2 points to add to per ranger level, and is probably a significant waste to invest in beyond that rogue level.
Listen, on the other hand, is universally useless.

If you're starting with 12 int, and going for a higher open locks, you'd probably take maximize instead of quicken, and your ranger level skills would look like
+1 open locks
+1 search
+1 spot
+1 disable
+1 concentration
+1 UMD

If you started with 14 int, or want to stick with 4 in open locks, you'd probably take quicken instead of maximize, and your ranger level skills would look like
+1 move silently
+1 hide
+1 search
+1 spot
+1 disable
+1 umd
+1 open locks (if 14 int)

Travst
08-26-2011, 01:48 PM
Thanks for that analysis. The thread I referenced in my last post has the poster maxing open lock every level, so that's what made me wonder, after Vulgari's comments. That makes sense and I will adjust accordingly.

SisAmethyst
08-26-2011, 01:56 PM
Lock DC's are really low. Very few people ever max it, though how far they do take it is a matter of personal preference (and how long you want to spend rolling a 20 for some of the harder ones). I say ten or eleven simply because that's a reasonable amount that won't require heavy buffs for every lock, but if you want to invest those skills elsewhere such as hide and move silently, 4 points is probably managable.

The haggle suggestion, most likely, was aimed exclusively at that first rogue level, where you have so many skillpoints it's more of a matter of what you don't start with. Haggle is not a ranger class skill, and takes 2 points to add to per ranger level, and is probably a significant waste to invest in beyond that rogue level.
Listen, on the other hand, is universally useless.

...

On top of that if you are interested in how high the DCs of Traps/Locks are in certain quests you may find the DDO information project - Traps and locks (http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_information_project/Traps_and_locks) interesting.

Travst
08-26-2011, 02:12 PM
So far, this is where my tinkering has me. I figure to max Open Locks at 10.

LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Male Human
Alignment Selected: Lawful Good
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 16, DEX: 15, CON: 16, INT: 12
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Disable Device +4 (4), Haggle +4 (4), Heal +1 (1), Hide +4 (4), Jump +2 (2), Open Lock +4 (4), Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +4 (4), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Dodge, Power Attack
Enhancements Selected: Improved Disable Device I, Improved Search I, Improved Spot I, Rogue Haste Boost I

LEVEL 2
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 1 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5), Disable Device +1 (5), Search +1 (5), Spot +1 (5), UMD +1 (5)
Feats Selected: Favored Enemy (Undead)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, Ranger Sprint Boost I, Ranger Favored Damage I, Human Versatility I

LEVEL 3
Class Selected: Ranger (Ranger 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6), Disable Device +1 (6), Open Lock +1 (5), Search +1 (6), Spot +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Mobility
Enhancements Selected: Human Improved Recovery I, Ranger Devotion I, Ranger Energy Resistance Boost I

Bobthesponge
08-29-2011, 12:10 PM
Well some remarks:

...
I don't know a single lock that is mandatory to open in DDO to complete a quest.


VON 5?


Needless to say that a Mage that can swap in a knock spell can open nearly everything a Rogue can and those spell even exist as a wand.
...


That is true though.

FrozenNova
08-29-2011, 02:14 PM
To clarify - no mandatory lock has a high dc, and these can usually be opened by knock.
However - many optional locks, hiding easier alternative routes or optionals or treasure - have very high dc's that knock will not hit, and will take considerable effort for an at-level toon that has only slightly invested in open locks.
Chains of Flame has a suitable example of the latter.