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BinyaminTsadik
08-25-2011, 02:38 AM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.

PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP.

The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this.

Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking.

I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it.

Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit.

One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

protokon
08-25-2011, 02:47 AM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.

PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP.

The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this.

Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking.

I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it.

Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit.

One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

Which has been the whole debacle for the last few years. It is complete heresy to even whisper talks about trying to impove pvp here in ddo, and it's always the generic, canned response "because it wastes my vip dollars on precious development time blah blah blah".

Sad to say as much as I hate that response, I agree wholeheartedly - both on the problems you presented in the system, as to why it is imbalanced (burst ranged dps of casters is just superior, period) and to be honest, although I would love to see a type of pvp server you could transfer your toons to for fun, I just don't see it happening - and all honestly, I'd prefer it not to.

leave it the way it is.

If I need to satisfy my pvp nerd-rage instincts, il turn on the xbox and pwn the 12 year olds playing left 4 dead. or i'll just log into Rift.

wax_on_wax_off
08-25-2011, 02:53 AM
You make very good points about the difficulties of incorporating PvP in DDO.

Personally I advocate selling PvP maps individually such as a DotA (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253062) style map. I see this idea as perfect as the focus of the map is PvE and so perfectly fits in with the structure of D&D. Additionally, this structure perfectly addresses the need to build revenue from the sale of the map.

In regards to a dedicated server ... well, I'd incorporate that idea into a generally themed extreme difficulty server which is Permanent Death, Friendly Fire and in general absolutely brutal. That should keep everyone happy. PvP would be quite balanced with PD as you aren't that likely to make it to a very high level (where there is less balance).

Dandonk
08-25-2011, 02:55 AM
I'm sure there are people who would stay, or join, DDO if PvP was more developed.

What I'm not sure about is whether it'd be worth it from a pure cost/benefit point of view. PvP is very sketchy in DDO atm, and developing it enough to satisfy said people will, as far as I can tell, take an enormous amoun of work. IMO, it'd be a big risk to take. And in the mean time, it'd take resources away from other areas of the game, alienating most of the players that are already playing it.

But I'm not, really, opposed to PvP. I don't play it, and couldn't care less about it - as long as it has no influence over PvE.

karnokvolrath
08-25-2011, 02:58 AM
If I need to satisfy my pvp nerd-rage instincts, il turn on the xbox and pwn the 12 year olds playing left 4 dead. or i'll just log into Rift.

My sentiments exactly.

A server for Khyber vrs Sarlona, or something like it would be awesome though.
Even if was on like wednesday and only two servers each week, this would give it a huge showdown feel that you would wait weeks to get revenge in :)

wax_on_wax_off
08-25-2011, 03:12 AM
Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.

baddax
08-25-2011, 03:42 AM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.What is a PvP realm? D&D is and always has been bound only by the limitations of the GMs imagination.

PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP. What does this mean? And bound be whom?The only other limitaions I see for DDO is the limitations of the Physical sort. ie Internet, grpahics and processing ability of computers and servers.

The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this. I think you may be underestimating the DDO development team. They have recently proven creative in there modifications to such things as Spells Fortification Special effects ie Vorpals smiters and such.

Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking. Really? Like balancing ALL quest difficulties based off of party makeup? Not to mention events such as the mabar event.

I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it. So improve it slightly and its profitable But Invest significant resources and there is no Increased effect? Interesting what do you base this conclusion upon? So an unbalanced system is the way to go? well It appears "mission accomplished" because the system we have is very unbalanced.

Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit. Do you mean Damage die? or SA modifier?

One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world. I like the idea of a seperate PVP server, this has been suggested before.

But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system. I agree there is a large segement of the overall gaming population that enjoys PvP.DDO is my game of choice and though i am not a huge pvp fan i see no reason I shouyld be forced to go else where for a suitable alternative for my PvP fix should i so coose. I also dont feal a PvP po[pulation would be any more disruptive than our current FtP players. I am all for anything (well mostly anything) that expands our game to a larger audience and thus increased revenue and development for the overall ddo community. Comments in Red.

BinyaminTsadik
08-25-2011, 09:20 AM
Comments in Red.

1. Any progressive E-Sport game will have balancing updates every week. Balance is the most important aspect of these games.
2. E-Sport games are far simpler than DDO in all forms of their system

So if a simple system takes years to balance (and tiny tweeks occur every weekly update), balancing ddo for pvp is a far greater undertaking. Especially considering that any game balance will also affect the PvE aspect.

- Most people have issues with PvP because the balancing will change the status of PvE.


This is why the best way that I saw of balancing these aspects is creating a separate PvP server that can balance classes/items/abilities across the board and will have no affect on the PvE. Even the party UI, in PvP should be different.


A separate development team can be solely responsible for this new server, this will attract more players to DDO, more revenue, and add a different aspect to the game.

The only relevant PvP today in ddo, is Veteran PvP, where you create a lvl 4 character and fight with their starter gear. The only problem with that is finding people that are willing to do it. A PvP server that is dedicated to PvP means that no one is logging on to organize loot, or do raids, it means everyone there is for PvP, and it will be far easier to find groups.

Any other suggestion that I have seen regarding PvP will interfere with the ddo that we know and love.

Arnhelm
08-25-2011, 09:27 AM
I have seen many a game ruined by implementation of PvP "balancing". Worse, I've been griefed in games that forced PvP without regard to personal choice, regardless of being on a "non-PvP" server.

The reality for me is simple. I like DDO because there is no real PvP, no constant "balancing" of existing classes because PvP is borked (regardless of the numbers of people who don't PvP), and no griefing of me as I play the PvE game I truly enjoy.

For those who want PvP, I suggest going to games with backgrounds designed for PvP. WoW is one. Asheron's Call Darktide server is another. I'm certain there are other good games for PvP play, and those don't require destroying the DDO we non-PvP players enjoy.

Chai
08-25-2011, 09:28 AM
Which has been the whole debacle for the last few years. It is complete heresy to even whisper talks about trying to impove pvp here in ddo, and it's always the generic, canned response "because it wastes my vip dollars on precious development time blah blah blah".

Business decisions ARE made based on money. We kid ourselves if we feel otherwise, regardless of our various stances, agreements or disagreements, on the PVP issue.

The last sentence in the OP contains the most legit question. Where is the money in this for DDO? In order to convince Turbine, you WILL have to convince a decent chunk of the playerbase, because that IS where the money is for this in DDO.

What you are calling a generic canned response is not canned or generic. Its a paying customer stating their opinion and standing by it. Either you would have to convince these people that PVP is right for this game, or rally up alot of PVP supporters to the point where the "anti PVP" crowd is the minority. If either of those could be done, you would then have shown Turbine "where the money in this is" so to speak.

cdbd3rd
08-25-2011, 09:33 AM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc....

The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm.

.... Many <people> avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.


*adding the inverse truism here: Many people are playing DDO for the lack of a PvP system.*


/Stands at door debating whether to take the bait.

Naw. Nothin I could say here that isn't already in the OP. (except for one tiny little addition)


/Wanders off. :rolleyes:

Arnhelm
08-25-2011, 09:40 AM
*adding the inverse truism here: Many people are playing DDO for the lack of a PvP system.*
One of if not the biggest reasons I'm still playing after most of two years. Thank you for bringing it up. :)

bigolbear
08-25-2011, 09:47 AM
this is rapidly becoming me standard responce to pvp threads.

any future pvp development should be a 'pack' that has to be bought. the sales figures would answer once and for all the feasability of pvp development.

the forum users represent a tiny portion of the player base, so all the shouting here is not realy representative of the typical player.

ps. im not a hater, but i probly only spend 1% or less of my game time in any kind of pvp setting.

Bracosius
08-25-2011, 09:48 AM
I know exactly where you are coming from and I have advocated the same concept in the past, but no one wants to hear it. Instead they rather neg rep you hoping you never type PvP into another post again.

I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?

It is not required that a barbarian be able to kill a wizard in a 1v1 fight in order for fun team PvP to exist. If you get frustrated that your barbarian keeps getting owned by casters, develop a new tactic or go roll a caster for PvP. If you don't think that should be required to PvP effectivly, then don't PvP.

I also think awards for PvP should exist that do not effect the core PvE part of the game. The rewards could be cosmetic, we already know turbine has that ability. It is enough of a reward for people good at PvP to have something to show for it, but does not effect PvE at all.

I also do not think it would be time consuming or difficult to do, they already have most of the concept in place. They have team arenas but no one uses them. I think a que system that allows you to leave the tavern, stay qued and only drop you from que if you enter a quest would help.

I guarantee that if PvP had a reward of a cosmetic only crown, just like cosmetic armor upgrades, that was a reward for team PvP only, people would do it. And if enough of the polpulation ends up enjoying it, then more maps can be added, and rewards that do not not effect PvE.

Dragavon
08-25-2011, 09:48 AM
But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

I see what you are saying. But I play DDO because it has no PVP. :cool:

If someone wants a PVP game then let them go play something else, leave DDO to us that want no part of it. That is my opinion ;)

sebastianosmith
08-25-2011, 09:52 AM
Business decisions ARE made based on money. We kid ourselves if we feel otherwise, regardless of our various stances, agreements or disagreements, on the PVP issue.

The last sentence in the OP contains the most legit question. Where is the money in this for DDO? In order to convince Turbine, you WILL have to convince a decent chunk of the playerbase, because that IS where the money is for this in DDO.

I agree completely. If market demand were sufficient, a new server catering solely to PVP would be worth the effort. I do think, however, that an entirely new game utilizing the existing code base as a starting point should be created to support it. Something like DDO: Eberron Arena springs to mind. This would remove all question of balance between the two play styles and allow for PVP to truly come into its own.

phum
08-25-2011, 10:13 AM
My opinion on the matter is that the devs in of DDO listen to and fear the forum community on a whole different level compared to most e-sport or more pvp-oriented games. This is quite natural as DDO has quite a bit of history and wants to keep its veterans who have strong opinions and interests. At least clear majority on the forums is totally against pvp. Whether or not this is true for the whole population, is something no1 knows. My guess is yes..

Connection to community is very important, but I really think their data mining is too excessive and often results in confusion and indecisiveness. Sometimes no amount of statistics of what players do, will tell the devs what the players want to do and whether or not they'd enjoy something new. If the devs lack vision, they could start myddo surveys and somehow encourage ppl to make informed decisions in them.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-25-2011, 11:37 AM
I am really against trying to balance anything in the "pits".

The amount of childish behavior and greefing I see in there makes me even more against it.

And I am against any change in the classes to try to balance PvP.

But...I am for imporving PvP in other ways.
Mostly through variety.

First thing that comes to mind is Rogues.....who cannot hide in PvP.

To me, the total fun of PvP is to outsmart a living human being. If I wanted to see how fast I could take out a mindless object, I'd go find a training dummy.

Fun PvP would be for tactics to be useful. And trickery.
Loading up on spell absorbtion items is not tactics IMO.

Tactics is running around a corner and circling back to attack the guy from behind.

So improve the death matches.
Give lots and lots of variety to the types of environments you can go against someone else in.

Add stuff to use against them in there too. Like those ship cannons, or turning a WF titan against someone else....

Get creative!

Allow all spells and all abilities to work in PvP.

Give people lots of environments to use to outsmart someone else in creative ways.

That would be fun to me!

MsEricka
08-25-2011, 02:06 PM
How could you not expect that a thread title like this would get a lot of responses?


=BinyaminTsadikMany RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

And we applaud them not coming to DDO.

Here's the issue with DDO PvP, it's lame.. oh sorry, I mean it's "broken". To be some sort of PvP player you need to build your toon for PvP. In most cases this means you're going to break your toon for PvE, especially if you're a caster.

There's enough characters out there that are bad already, throw in the mix of PvP players with badly built arcanes thinking that they're entitled to be in your group and entitled to the same loot as everyone else when they don't contribute and you have issues.

Melee PvP is different, but very few people that are "serious" about PvP will play melee when they think they can make an arcane and own the pits.

I've made the suggestion many times before. Make PvP a lvl 4 right off the boat area that is not accessible by PvE characters. Or even possibly have pre-selectable level 4 characters that people can PvP with. This way everyone is essentially weak and cannot have gear traded to them. It would keep everything on a much more level playing field.

Oh, and HECK NO to a PvP server.


Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.

Fail. DDO isn't going to die because of a lack of PvP. That's just silly and 5+ years of being around proves that. DDO _was_ failing due to a lack of new subscribers and new content. F2P has solved that issue. Continuous updates also prove you wrong as well.


Any progressive E-Sport game will have balancing updates every week.

Weekly "balance" updates however, WOULD kill DDO and make it yet another WoW clone. Also note, that DDO is not an E-Sport game. Please stop making comparisons as they are different beasts.

Pape_27
08-25-2011, 02:21 PM
I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?


It does have team vs team PvP. It also has Capture the Flag. People just dont use it.

_

MartinusWyllt
08-25-2011, 02:29 PM
Designing a game around factions from the ground-up looks to be the only way to really approach balance in a player v. player environment. I really liked the game that has 3 factions, each has the same kind of classes, but varied.

For example imagine that the spellsinger the virtuoso and the warchanter were classes instead and each belonged to one of the three factions.

Each faction has questing areas strictly PvE and an area to fight other factions...with goals...a giant, 3 team, capture the flag where you can use siege engines and all kinds of stuff and each faction has the same power dynamic.

Though I'd be a little tempted to try a PvP PD server that included friendly and self-fire, fireballs had lethal consequences to the caster on paper...but probably not more than once or twice.

baddax
08-26-2011, 11:17 PM
I see alot of people saying this.

For those who want PvP, I suggest going to games with backgrounds designed for PvP. WoW is one. Asheron's Call Darktide server is another. I'm certain there are other good games for PvP play, and those don't require destroying the DDO we non-PvP players enjoy.



One of if not the biggest reasons I'm still playing after most of two years. Thank you for bringing it up. :)


As i stated before i am not a huge pvp fan But it is mainly because PvP is broken in DDO. I spend less than 1% of my time in PVP, usually when im bored to tears or waiting for a group to fill etc. IF PvP in DDO where not broken I might be inclined to spend more time in the "pits". Who knows?

I personaly have very little mmo experience outside of DDO. can someone plz explain how this particular "group" is any more annoying than any of the other ddo "group". ie Role players, Perma Death players, FTP players and or Power gamers? I understand that nerfs and game modifications to accomadate PvP players would be annoying. This is why I think a seperate server or Specific Character could be tagged as PvP only. Then there would little or no interaction between the 2 groups and modifications could be made to affect only the server or specific PvP characters or another.

I remember at the Relaunch of ddo when the whole ftp thing And the DDO store was implemented, there was a Huge amount of concern (including by myself) over the new players who were coming And were going to be FTP ?!?!? and how DDO would be ruined by both FTP and the DDO store. Now it is taken for granted and no one bats an eye.

As far as the comments about those that want to pvp finding another game etc. I have to say that i am more than slightly annoyed. I have a few choice comments that I unfortunately cannot share due to the fact I do not want to be banned from these forums. I have a shared account with my wife who is VIP and I am a Premium player. I have been a subscriber since March of 06 (alot longer than some who post that PvP players should find another game to pvp). I have also played Pen and Paper since 79. I fail to see how MY enjoyment of PVP or lack thereof affects anyone else beside the players who actively participate in it. I have and do spend my money on DDO and see no reason i should be forced to find an other game for PvP.

heyytoi
08-26-2011, 11:34 PM
How could you not expect that a thread title like this would get a lot of responses?


Here's the issue with DDO PvP, it's lame.. oh sorry, I mean it's "broken". To be some sort of PvP player you need to build your toon for PvP. In most cases this means you're going to break your toon for PvE, especially if you're a caster.

There's enough characters out there that are bad already, throw in the mix of PvP players with badly built arcanes thinking that they're entitled to be in your group and entitled to the same loot as everyone else when they don't contribute and you have issues.


How is a PvP toon gimp?

Luthe111
08-27-2011, 12:10 AM
some pvp could be nice for as people say: 'their pvp fix'. i have these myself and enter a tavern brawl, where my lv 20 paladin could be killed by some poorly(or intentionally) aimed meteors, and my lv 10 caster can rip apart lv 20 fighters. obviously at least the attempt was made once, and while poorly executed, to make pvp. ive never been to the lobster and NOT seen people killing in the arena. and with some people playing even a broken system, imagine what even a partially reformed sytem or true pvp implementation could do.or (this is the part that might get turbines attention) i (others claim to do this as well) go spend my money on a different game so i get pvp. people play this without pvp. adding optional pvp would only increase possible monetary income.(players). though reading some posts, emphasizing the "only give pvp to those who want it" may be good idea. doing this through purchasable pack would be income friendly as all who want would probly buy, without really doing anything to bug those who dont.

Orratti
08-27-2011, 12:17 AM
If you build a toon to be successful in pvp it is more capable in pve. You are not fighting mindless AI monsters in there and you are dealing with opponents that are capable of dealing much more spell damage, melee damage, crowd control yada yada yada than most anything you face in pve.

I don't pvp much anymore though as it is easier to deal out huge damage that will instakill or nearly instakill most players than it ever has been before. This makes it cheesy and not much of an accomplisment worthy of the amount of bragging and gloating that occurs imo. Plus have you seen some of the posts of some of these guys? They get killed by something and throw a fit to have it nerfed! That someone dared to kill them, the ultimate pvp champion of the world, is an affront of the highest order and they must be delt a blow by the devs since said posters can't seem to deal that blow themselves.

There was a time when I would happily jump into a pit and fight with other players. When we had a few ground rules that are no longer there. When someones armor guard wasn't enough to bring you to your knees. When the winner wasn't determined by whose lightning strike/slayer arrow goes off first or more often. When people wouldn't dispel your buffs then rain magic missiles on you or drop whatever cheap casting tricks are used now. I got no problems with pvpers wanting to enjoy the game and asking for changes to pvp, it's your game too. Alas my heyday has come and gone a long time ago in the arena. I do miss it though. Fought alot of great players in there and remember them well.

Koshy11
08-27-2011, 12:34 AM
Why don't you just buy out Turbine, tell them what to do, and see if your money's investment of your idea works?

baddax
08-27-2011, 12:37 AM
If you build a toon to be successful in pvp it is more capable in pve. You are not fighting mindless AI monsters in there and you are dealing with opponents that are capable of dealing much more spell damage, melee damage, crowd control yada yada yada than most anything you face in pve.


That is really the key to any PVP, it is the human factor. Its is nearly impossible to replicate the thought/reactions of a Human opponent. I have yet to run a quest that is equal in excitement to when me and a buddy get on line and play sports games and or first person shooters. It is an excitement that is hard to replicate.

baddax
08-27-2011, 12:41 AM
Why don't you just buy out Turbine, tell them what to do, and see if your money's investment of your idea works?

/Fail.
Why dont you add something constructive instead of ridiculous inane comments to a hopefully serious constructive thread?

MartinusWyllt
08-27-2011, 01:57 AM
...
I personaly have very little mmo experience outside of DDO...

As far as the comments about those that want to pvp finding another game etc. I have to say that i am more than slightly annoyed. ...

As you say you have very little other MMO experience. People, including me, suggesting other games probably have more other MMO experience and are actually making honest recommendations, me included. One I played for a couple of years is light-years ahead of where DDO could be for PvP because it was designed to be so from the ground up.

So, instead of assuming others are saying this to be sarcastic I respectfully recommend you consider the possibility that other plays are genuinely trying to help.

baddax
08-27-2011, 06:34 AM
As you say you have very little other MMO experience. People, including me, suggesting other games probably have more other MMO experience and are actually making honest recommendations, me included. One I played for a couple of years is light-years ahead of where DDO could be for PvP because it was designed to be so from the ground up.

You are missing my point entirely. I would compare this to say going to a Harley dealership, Asking for a perfomrance bike and the Harley Sales person suggesting I should go down the road to the Kawasaki dealership because they are "ahead" of Harley in the perfomance bike division. As far as people making "honest" recomendations I have no problem with that. What annoys me is seeing someone post is I/We the DDO community do not want PvP so If you want to PvP you need to go to another game to do that. As if they somehow speak for the entire DDO community Or the money they choose to spend on DDO is somehow superior to someone elses who might enjoy PvP.


So, instead of assuming others are saying this to be sarcastic I respectfully recommend you consider the possibility that other plays are genuinely trying to help.
I am not necessarily talking about posts directed to me, although posts that appear to voice the opinion of the DDO community and therefore appear to speak For me are particulalry annoying. Also as a long time forum poster I feal im pretty good at judging a persons intent off of what they say and i feal that even in this thread are good examples of posts who "appear" to be trying to be helpful, and those that make no such attempt and state plainly If you want PvP go else where as they dont like PvP. Or If DDO implements PvP they leaving. All im saying is it Should be possible to include PvP in ddo either through PvP specific characters Or a PvP specific server. This would allow for PvP while not directly impacting PvE. I feal that Should be an acceptable compromise. This Might encourage new subscriptions while (hopefully) keeping long time subscribers while also increasing the player base and hopefully generating more content for both groups which would appear to be a win win.

wax_on_wax_off
08-27-2011, 07:08 AM
Below is a thread that I started a while ago (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253062). It perfectly addresses the issue of PVP in DDO in my opinion. Anyway, read on ...

PVP is a sad affair in DDO at the moment simply because D&D mechanics are primarily PvE. Therefore, any pvp idea which could ever be successful has to take into account this fact. The idea of a DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients) inspired map which combines PvE and PvP into 1 neat little package is perfect due to the simple fact that classes in DDO will never be balanced in a PvP sense but rather can be balanced in a PvE sense (which is the priority in DotA).

For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

Furthermore;
a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.
d. You can kill opposing heroes (though this won't necessarily help you win the quest).

There is no need to balance the game for this or make any adjustments whatsoever. If the map was implemented it would be hugely fun and exciting as is.

However, there is 2 map specific balances that should be implemented to balance classes.
I. Spawn Points and Defensive Positions should be immune to piercing (specifically ranged) and magical damage to provide some value to melee classes.
II. Friendly creeps should be vulnerable to friendly fire (force archers and AoE spell casters to be careful where they fire their spells, again to provide more value to melee classes).

Finally one global change which is to allow stealth to work in PvP to provide value to stealthy classes.

Sell the quest as a premium adventure pack. Many wilderness areas could be used as a template upon which base and spawn points could be applied limiting the actual effort needed to implement the map.

And done, finished, finito.


After this, some thought could be given to strategies of progression over the course of the quest (perhaps your character can level over a preset path), equipment (perhaps strip everyone of gear), relative power of difference classes at different levels (casters tend to own more at higher levels) and possible rewards (guild renown?).

I suspect that items stripped, max level 10 would be about perfect for maximising skill and entertainment.

Tinco
08-27-2011, 07:26 AM
I simply think that DDO does not have the mechanical basics to make it a good pvp game and all what makes DDO enjoyable would be at stake if they tried to balance it for pvp.

There are so many games with better pvp options available, some are even free:

League of Legends (free)
Starcraft (one time buy)
EvE Online (sub)
Guild Wars (one time buy)
WoW (sub)
LotRO ('free')
etc.

I myself play LoL if I feel the need to smack people in a nice team based combat. No every game must cater to all styles of play. Sometimes it's better to concentrate on what's good about your game and leave the rest for other games.

That said I don't care at all if people participate in brawls in DDO. I just really don't want compromises to be made because of them. I fear it would break more on the PvE side than it would help on the PvP side.

Kmnh
08-27-2011, 07:38 AM
One thing I loved trying was pvping at Lammania. You get to play with people that you only see at the forums :)

diamabel
08-27-2011, 08:20 AM
When I'm playing a MMORPG then I'm not interested in meeting eSports.

PvP is a different matter, though. It's easier to manage with small groups of people and a few referees. The kind of PvP found in MMORPGs is lacking in many aspects.



To mention a few:

Take arcanes for example. The rulebooks offer lots of (optional) rules for magic duels where you can counter spells (deflect the spells, throw the spells back at the caster or dispel the spell). Conditions of victory would be determined beforehand. As an example: the first to run out of spells / being unable to cast more spells could lose such a duel. If both run out of spells then it would be a draw. This could be more interesting than just nuking down the red bars.

Another idea could have been an event like the crystal cove where two competing teams try to reach some set goals first. I guess that has been suggested in the past as well. Handing out item rewards for participating in or winning such a scenario is a two edged sword. Just have a look at WoW's battlegrounds. It ended in all kinds of players that were not interested in PvP have a freeride at faction renown and items. The PvPers then groaned and started to complain about the quality of PvP.

The neverending balance issue. An apple wants to fight a pear. And the loser is going to complain about the winner and how some ability of the opponent is overpowered or unfair. Since this is a role playing game with archetypes taken from fantasy and mythology how can there be balance? On top of that you'll have always issues between ranged combatants and meleers. Sticking to fights between apples and apples or pears and pears is an easy solution because opponents would have similar strengths and weaknesses.

Maybe adding some kind of referee system to sanction griefing is a way. RL sports have them for obvious reasons.


But then again I don't play DDO for the PvP.

MartinusWyllt
08-27-2011, 10:38 AM
You are missing my point entirely. I would compare this to say going to a Harley dealership, Asking for a perfomrance bike and the Harley Sales person suggesting I should go down the road to the Kawasaki dealership because they are "ahead" of Harley in the perfomance bike division.j

Not at all like this...I...and others not flagged as such...don't work for Turbine. If you and I were both shopping at the Harley dealership and we're commenting on the same bike and you say something about $30k maybe being out of your budget right now as you're looking for a motorcycle to commute to work with to save money on gas, I, as a fellow customer, might suggest checking out something like a Nighthawk or something if your commute is only a few miles.

I've thought of it more like someone buying a Toyota Corolla then deciding they want to go off-roading then complaining that they broke their car in the first ditch...now wanting Toyota to make all future Corollas 4 ft off the ground with 4 wheel/all wheel drive.


...Or the money they choose to spend on DDO is somehow superior to someone elses who might enjoy PvP...

This would most likely be your self-generated inference, not something implied...the comments lacking overt insults lack the intonation and body language needed to make your conclusion the most reasonable.



...I feal that Should be an acceptable compromise. This Might encourage new subscriptions while (hopefully) keeping long time subscribers while also increasing the player base and hopefully generating more content for both groups which would appear to be a win win.

One possible source of disgruntlement in the anti-PvP crowd might be found in the squabbles that crop up, even on Thelanis, between people over general chat over some silly tavern experience. Can we just turn off general chat? Sure, should we have to?...no. This, unfortunately, does lead to some bias.

What I think I might be failing to convey just how superior other platforms that are designed for PvP are. I mean...OK..take stealth as an example. Without the ability to really be invisible there's no real point to any significant stealth investment for any rogue variant with an eye on PvP. So they add hiding stealthers from everyone else and they have to make a spot check to be able to see them...oh, spot is a limited class skill, so now the assassin "owns" pvp because no casters can actually target them until the assassin drops stealth. Oh, right, True Seeing...works on stealth of just magical invisibility? See Invisible? Well, either one would have no resist and True Seeing is flat-out easy to get, now assassins are pointless again...but wait, there's Glitterdust...does this work in a public instance? I expect there'd be a lot of coding work, starting with making stealth functional for PvP but not for PvE as now that healer can't target your stealthy stealther.

Meanwhile a stealther in a game designed for it actually can sneak up on a human player enemy, execute some kind of attack chain and might succeed or fail depending on skill v ability checks that were planned for before the first line of code was written....and they can go do that right now. Want to take down a keep by knocking down walls with trebuchets and catapults while people are using a ram on the front doors? You can do that right now...(well, not really right now you'd need to do some leveling and farm coin and such, but you can start on it right now).

So really at least for myself I'm just suggesting that seeking an immersive and rich PvP experience in DDO is simply most likely to result in frustration. I'm not suggesting anyone just specifically take their toys and go home just that if DDO playtime isn't the kind of playtime you (as in plural) enjoy there are other playspaces out there. Its your dime.

Templarion
08-27-2011, 10:48 AM
But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.
This is a very good argument and I have been thinking why Turbine hasn't done anything to achieve more players. Of course, some would leave if this happened but after all - nobody forces people to PvP so I think there would less leavers and more comers.

Well, I don't know. I don't care much but playing balanced ladder PvP between dungeon crawling sessions could be refreshing. Why not?

Hutoth
08-27-2011, 10:49 AM
Did someone say "PVP Haters Sign-In"? :D

Marcus-Hawkeye
08-27-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm by no means a PvPer so to speak, however if they implemented some kind of PVP system like they had in AC2, I could definately see myself far more interested in it.... The system had abilities granted dependant on the wins and objectives you completed during PvP. It's been such a long time i don't really remember what it was all about, I just remember playing PVP because it was fun and the abilities were cool.

baddax
08-28-2011, 03:27 AM
j

Not at all like this...I...and others not flagged as such...don't work for Turbine. If you and I were both shopping at the Harley dealership and we're commenting on the same bike and you say something about $30k maybe being out of your budget right now as you're looking for a motorcycle to commute to work with to save money on gas, I, as a fellow customer, might suggest checking out something like a Nighthawk or something if your commute is only a few miles.
This would be acceptable except for die hard Harley riders are not likely to be caught on another brand of bike as there is a considerable amount of brand loyalty. I believe also this would be considered heresy in many areas and might result in said offender being burnt at the stake for being a witch.

This would most likely be your self-generated inference, not something implied...the comments lacking overt insults lack the intonation and body language needed to make your conclusion the most reasonable.
It is not an inference when a person posts specifically that they would rather quit ddo than see ddo improve or promote pvp.

One possible source of disgruntlement in the anti-PvP crowd might be found in the squabbles that crop up, even on Thelanis, between people over general chat over some silly tavern experience. Can we just turn off general chat? Sure, should we have to?...no. This, unfortunately, does lead to some bias.
This is easily solved by a seperate PvP chat chanel coding already exists.

What I think I might be failing to convey just how superior other platforms that are designed for PvP are. I mean...OK..take stealth as an example. Without the ability to really be invisible there's no real point to any significant stealth investment for any rogue variant with an eye on PvP. So they add hiding stealthers from everyone else and they have to make a spot check to be able to see them...oh, spot is a limited class skill, so now the assassin "owns" pvp because no casters can actually target them until the assassin drops stealth. Oh, right, True Seeing...works on stealth of just magical invisibility? See Invisible? Well, either one would have no resist and True Seeing is flat-out easy to get, now assassins are pointless again...but wait, there's Glitterdust...does this work in a public instance?
I believe all or mostly all spells work in designated PvP areas ( not tavern brawls). There is also radiance which would require a blindness immunity item.
I expect there'd be a lot of coding work, starting with making stealth functional for PvP but not for PvE as now that healer can't target your stealthy stealther.
Why should the healer have to be able to heal a stealthed character? This should be understandable and accepted as a risk. Regardless you are not likely to be needing many heals while stealthed as i believe any damage breaks stealth anyways.

Meanwhile a stealther in a game designed for it actually can sneak up on a human player enemy, execute some kind of attack chain and might succeed or fail depending on skill v ability checks that were planned for before the first line of code was written

I do not see this as difficult to do this code already exists in the PvE environment. I also Believe DDO was intended To have PvP from the beginning (regardless of what some people have claimed as I remember the PvP leaders boards that existed for quite some time when i first joinedin 06 ....and they can go do that right now. Want to take down a keep by knocking down walls with trebuchets and catapults while people are using a ram on the front doors? You can do that right now...(well, not really right now you'd need to do some leveling and farm coin and such, but you can start on it right now).
Sorry I do have limited (My sister in law and her husband played wow for a while) experience with WOW and cant imagine anything worth 2 coppers that exists in that game.

So really at least for myself I'm just suggesting that seeking an immersive and rich PvP experience in DDO is simply most likely to result in frustration. I'm not suggesting anyone just specifically take their toys and go home just that if DDO playtime isn't the kind of playtime you (as in plural) enjoy there are other playspaces out there. Its your dime.

While this is perfectly acceptable answer, for myself i would rather find 1 mmo to fullfill all my online gaming desires.Once i find a truly superior product to DDO I likely will change mmos completely, however as for now i am content with DDO. I am seriously hoping that the new star wars mmo is an outstanding mmo with a good pvp system.

Comments in Red.
Excellent post +1

Fundamental
09-22-2011, 01:15 PM
"PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP."

Have you been to Ghallanda recently?
I beat any caster who has bad AC (basically everyone) with my ranger build, 9/10 times or 19/20 times.
Heck I beat 3 WF TR's 3vs1 8 times in a row and these guys are the more able pvpers of the server. Lol.
I got maybe 500 kills these months alone with Emphasized, my new designed build, vs the best casters on Ghallanda pvp wise. There were only a select few who could kill me and a very very select few who survived a snipe.
Ask anyone about me and they would lie if they said it's not true.
And no, no every ranger build can do that, you need a good designed build, idea.
So with all due respect bro, your totally wrong about casters dominating, your mind creates this false reasoning cause you don't know anything about pvp I think.
You can bring you caster(s) to the lobster, on Ghallanda..
send a pm to emphasized or either one of my mains ill make it quick for you, 10 out of 10, 20 out of 20 i dont care nor would it probably matter ;p good luck on my 50/50 saves, evasion manyshot and l2, if you survive that ill switch bow, if your palemaster if you move you die (gotta love disruption)

Now stop spreading this false information about pvp it's fine as it is, we just need some better designed areas and minor implementations of the pets from artificers etc, little things.

A good player creates what he wants to create and theirs no boundaries.
And no casters do not rule pvp, they just have sp and good damage, they are also the perfect weak and slow target for a high dps ranger, esp WF.

For now, i'm waiting for your caster bro ;)

Greets!

Marcus-Hawkeye
09-22-2011, 04:49 PM
Have you checked out the arenas?

Ssdprref
09-22-2011, 09:55 PM
I'm not a old school player, Still i have many experience on MMORPG and RPG'S.

Anyways, what about if they create a Arena, I mean like a Coliseum, with a huge beastiarum and were you get paid for killing mobs, and even get rewarded with XP, You tired of questing?, Go to the coliseum and make some extra money while you check a raid on 12 lvl 4 getting owned by 2 elder beholders.

Kinda like the Arena on Oblivion.

gloopygloop
09-22-2011, 10:05 PM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:

Every time someone puts up a post that they believe will improve PvP, they think that they are correct in that belief. But that is not always the case.

I greatly prefer when DDO focuses on the core PvE game and leaves PvP as the afterthought that it clearly is. Every change in the game can have unintended consequences - we see that in every single patch that Turbine puts out.

I would prefer that Turbine not invest additional opportunities to break the game by making changes to PvP that may or may not actually improve the PvP experience.

gloopygloop
09-22-2011, 10:14 PM
As far as the comments about those that want to pvp finding another game etc. I have to say that i am more than slightly annoyed. I have a few choice comments that I unfortunately cannot share due to the fact I do not want to be banned from these forums. I have a shared account with my wife who is VIP and I am a Premium player. I have been a subscriber since March of 06 (alot longer than some who post that PvP players should find another game to pvp). I have also played Pen and Paper since 79. I fail to see how MY enjoyment of PVP or lack thereof affects anyone else beside the players who actively participate in it. I have and do spend my money on DDO and see no reason i should be forced to find an other game for PvP.

I don't believe that anyone is telling you to leave DDO. They're just suggesting that other games may have a better PvP experience.

If you want an outstanding hamburger, then I suggest that you go to Five Guys Burgers. If you want outstanding Chinese food, then I suggest that you go to Yang Ming in Bryn Mawr, PA. When I suggest Yang Ming, I am *not* telling you that you should stop going to Five Guys. I'm just saying that the Chinese food is better at Yang Ming than at Five Guys. For some reason, all of the Chinese food at Five Guys looks and tastes like Hamburgers...

If you want a great PvP experience, then DDO is not the game where you'll find that. And I don't believe that Turbine can make a great PvP experience without thoroughly messing with the PvE game and I certainly don't want that. But that doesn't mean you have to give up DDO in order to have a good PvP experience. It just means you will end up playing more than one game. And that's okay.

stille_nacht
09-22-2011, 10:19 PM
I'm sure there are people who would stay, or join, DDO if PvP was more developed.

What I'm not sure about is whether it'd be worth it from a pure cost/benefit point of view. PvP is very sketchy in DDO atm, and developing it enough to satisfy said people will, as far as I can tell, take an enormous amoun of work. IMO, it'd be a big risk to take. And in the mean time, it'd take resources away from other areas of the game, alienating most of the players that are already playing it.

But I'm not, really, opposed to PvP. I don't play it, and couldn't care less about it - as long as it has no influence over PvE.

this is pretty much where i stand.
PvP could improve our playerbase/add an interesting layer to the game- yes.
PvP would be easy to impliment/ cheap to implement/ quick to implement/ even moderately easy to think out- no.

it is too big of a risk for now i think, but i we get to the point where we have many many more players, i can see the devs spending some time on it, maybe making a cross server battle thingy (doubt it, that sounds really difficult), but more likely implementing something that tweaks damage values inside the arena/ pvp maps/missions

MrTops
09-22-2011, 10:20 PM
PvP?

It seems DDO has a PvP already in it's 'I have an eSoS and you don't'.

My build is better geared than yours, so there!

I've no interest in PvP except as a forum to test stuff.

I'm sure Turbine follows the money, so if lots of PvP fans want more PvP, I expect you'll get it.

MrTops
09-22-2011, 10:21 PM
I forgot to mention, at a price :)

ElfedLied4
09-22-2011, 10:40 PM
I love this suggestion.


- Most people have issues with PvP because the balancing will change the status of PvE. First, let's not change anything about DDO. That's a great way to start thinking about the pvp situation.
This is why the best way that I saw of balancing these aspects is creating a separate PvP server that can balance classes/items/abilities across the board and will have no affect on the PvE. Even the party UI, in PvP should be different.Ok, so new and different server, new UI, new/modified classes, different items, modified abilities, sounds great!
A separate development team can be solely responsible for this new server, this will attract more players to DDO, more revenue, and add a different aspect to the game.Ok, so now we've got new equipment, new classes, ect. What was missing? Yes, it was a dev team to mold the game for the future.
Any other suggestion that I have seen regarding PvP will interfere with the ddo that we know and love.

So then the only question is: What shall we call this new game you've made? I like DungeonWorld of Dragoncraft.



If you stop to think about it, all of your suggestions put together means creating a new game. Really. Look at your suggestion and think.

CatchPoint
09-23-2011, 09:26 PM
"PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP."

Have you been to Ghallanda recently?
I beat any caster who has bad AC (basically everyone) with my ranger build, 9/10 times or 19/20 times.
Heck I beat 3 WF TR's 3vs1 8 times in a row and these guys are the more able pvpers of the server. Lol.
I got maybe 500 kills these months alone with Emphasized, my new designed build, vs the best casters on Ghallanda pvp wise. There were only a select few who could kill me and a very very select few who survived a snipe.
Ask anyone about me and they would lie if they said it's not true.
And no, no every ranger build can do that, you need a good designed build, idea.
So with all due respect bro, your totally wrong about casters dominating, your mind creates this false reasoning cause you don't know anything about pvp I think.
You can bring you caster(s) to the lobster, on Ghallanda..
send a pm to emphasized or either one of my mains ill make it quick for you, 10 out of 10, 20 out of 20 i dont care nor would it probably matter ;p good luck on my 50/50 saves, evasion manyshot and l2, if you survive that ill switch bow, if your palemaster if you move you die (gotta love disruption)

Now stop spreading this false information about pvp it's fine as it is, we just need some better designed areas and minor implementations of the pets from artificers etc, little things.

A good player creates what he wants to create and theirs no boundaries.
And no casters do not rule pvp, they just have sp and good damage, they are also the perfect weak and slow target for a high dps ranger, esp WF.

For now, i'm waiting for your caster bro ;)

Greets!

Funny he doesnt mention all you need is an archer with lit 2 AND A PALE LAVENDER IOUN STONE lol what a tool // Just hand out one of those to all the mele in the pit and see what happens lmao

Fundamental
10-11-2011, 12:25 PM
Funny he doesnt mention all you need is an archer with lit 2 AND A PALE LAVENDER IOUN STONE lol what a tool // Just hand out one of those to all the mele in the pit and see what happens lmao

All you need, all you need.. lol why would I hand out the best items in the game to someone, items people work months sometimes years to get?

Jealousy is also a large part of PVP, as you just shown in your post, if you work for your items you are rewarded in DDO.
Putting a pale on just an ordinairy melee with no evasion is probably the worst usage of a pale you can do,
as for ranger beating everyone with l2, and pale... it's basically almost true can't lie about that, rangers are very strong in pvp but that's the point, they can still be beat by divine, or arcanes with proper DR, AC and a combination of spells.

As far as any build can beat good casters, it's not true you need a specialized ranger to do that and not any melee with a pale and a l2 is good it still takes skill

;)

adamkatt
10-24-2011, 05:53 AM
Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.

No pvp will kill ddo.. Not really. Plenty of other pvp games out there that are made for it. MMo pvp has never been much fun compared to real pvp games like the quakes and battlefields. Yep Fps pvp is the way to go. DDO will not die due to lack of pvp or it already would have.

patang01
10-24-2011, 09:25 AM
Every time someone puts up a post on improving PVP most of the replies are:
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

Many of these claims hold true. In most E-SPORTS, team PvP games include set in strategy and leveling curves.
The players that start out weak,end up very strong in end game (carries). The ones that start out strong at the start end up weaker in endgame. The high dps players have low durability. And the high durability players have low dps.

The Dungeons and Dragons setting is not a PvP realm. Players are usually balanced at mid levels, but at epic levels its the casters that dominate.

PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP.

The only way PvP can be balanced in DDO is in a teamfight with a balanced team, but not many people do this.

Many people suggest to modify stats, health, spells, within the PvP setting in order to balance it, however this is a huge undertaking.

I know many players that left DDO early game because of the lack of PvP capacity. So it may be profitable to improve it slightly, but balancing is not the way to do it.

Rogue sneak is definitely a skill that should be present in pvp, and if the base hit dice (not items) were trippled it may balance the playing field a bit.

One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

But again, where is the money in this for DDO? I answer, if you build it they will come. Many RL friends and E-Sports community avoid playing DDO for lack of a good PvP system.

But why?

patang01
10-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Which has been the whole debacle for the last few years. It is complete heresy to even whisper talks about trying to impove pvp here in ddo, and it's always the generic, canned response "because it wastes my vip dollars on precious development time blah blah blah".

Sad to say as much as I hate that response, I agree wholeheartedly - both on the problems you presented in the system, as to why it is imbalanced (burst ranged dps of casters is just superior, period) and to be honest, although I would love to see a type of pvp server you could transfer your toons to for fun, I just don't see it happening - and all honestly, I'd prefer it not to.

leave it the way it is.

If I need to satisfy my pvp nerd-rage instincts, il turn on the xbox and pwn the 12 year olds playing left 4 dead. or i'll just log into Rift.

We have a DDO that after many years still don't have all the PrEs. Some bugs are still there. Some content still have issues and Epic still need rework quest wise and gear wise.

Why should Turbine spend more time developing PvP that is played by a minority of players?

It IS a waste of resources when there's still so much work to be done in regards to content and classes.

Cormath
10-24-2011, 09:52 AM
DDO is about rewards. We grind and craft for gear. We pick our quests for either high exp or best loot. The only problem I see for DDO PvP is there is no in-game reward or recognition for PvP.

An in-game reward as simple as a world broadcast notice (like a guild reaching a certain level) would create a stir around PvP.

So I suggest allowing signups for the existing capture-the-flag and domination PvP to result in the winning team having their guild name and/or player names broadcast in that zone (ie the zone the arena entrance is located in such as the Harbor for Wayward lobster). If the players could signup for the combat as Guild-verse-Guild or Pug-verse-Pug, it might change the announcement broadcast of the winner.

This would encourage people to play existing PvP content both for the arena-style practice and the competition instance zones.

Chai
10-24-2011, 11:25 AM
1. DDO already has some of the PVP features many people suggest, and they dont get used alot.

2. I see real PVP hate like "go back to WOW" etc, then I also see realistic statements like "DDO was not designed from the ground up as a PVP game" and both are construed as PVP hate and trolling, when in fact theres a huge difference between the two.

3. PVP is not balanced in this game. Casters reign supreme and can one shot kill everyone else. While I think that there could be a PVP game designed on D&D rules, I dont feel DDO is that game. I get called a hater for saying this, but I dont feel that having an opinion is hating. Im pointing out that unbalanced PVP is not attractive to most players. I either have to build a caster, lose all the time, or build something that can beat a caster *sometimes* and get trolled out of the PVP zone for using an "unfair" tactic like manyshot or song of capering against an opponent who can one shot kill me with any number of available damage spells. Im a lover of irony too, but..... :p

4. To make DDO balanced for PVP without touching PVE, there would have to be an entire set of rules and circumstances set up for the PVP zones. Im talking about rogues having a 50-50 chance to beat a caster when I say "balanced". It would be more balanced than the circle-jump > one shot kill w/ damage spell while kiting to stay out of range. - When I see it stated that this would be a huge undertaking to balance the system, this is also construed as "PVP hate and trolling" as well, which is why we cant have nice things. Its hard to communicate under those circumstances.

5. The assumption that anyone who makes an anti-pvp statement or has an anti-pvp opinion doesnt use the current PVP features. This is usually assumed in order to disqualify statements made against PVP, and I grin each time I see this. Ive brought up features that many of the pro PVP crowd challenge me on, then find out that I aint lying, heh. There are actually ALOT more features than people usually make use of. If 80% of the current system doesnt get used, why should they expand on it. Do we think they just dont keep track of this to analyze how much of a financial expense -vs- gain it would be to allocate resources to it?

6. "I would rather the devs work more on X" - X being whatever the opinion of the poster is on what needs work in this game. Popular ones include finishing PREs, new content, and fixing bugs. - rather than working on PVP. Usually labeled trolling due to not agreeing with the OP suggestion in a PVP thread. Again, hard to communicate under those circumstances, when every single opinion other than "/signed" is considered hating and trolling.

fuzzy1guy
10-24-2011, 12:56 PM
The fact that we have arenas and capture the flag style team pvp already.... And NOBODY uses it. Where pvp is completely 100% balanced. You can have toon X on your team just like they do.

Kind of says alot about what they really want for pvp.... "I want to pwn noobs without being pwnt myself. balance! we need balance! "

And the arena and ctf been here for a long time now. Still nobody uses it.


Personally i don't want to see time spent on pvp programming. And i've gained a strong dislike of the adversarial eliteist atittudes that pvp players bring to pvp focused games. Seen more than a couple games get to be unfun once the dev focus on pvp started. Sure we don't have the worlds best community here. But it's still fairly open and friendly. Now go check out games that are 100% pvp. Pretty terrible 'community'.

Uska
10-24-2011, 01:02 PM
There is plenty of pvp as it is and nobody really uses it. Any dev time spent on more pvp is time spent away from content and bug fixes for the majority plus dnd(ddo) just isnt a good game for pvp to many issues which would call for artifical balancing.

stretchcore
10-25-2011, 06:51 AM
snip....
Usually labeled trolling due to not agreeing with the OP suggestion in a PVP thread. Again, hard to communicate under those circumstances, when every single opinion other than "/signed" is considered hating and trolling.
This is the reason most PVP happens on the forums, and not just in pvp threads. :/

My 2cp is that if there's going to be ongoing changes to ddo, new classes/enhancements/PREs etc, that would necessitate rebalancing for PVE, they would also require more dev time rebalancing for PVP. This means more financial and hours worked cost to turbine, so higher prices for us, and more time to wait between updates.



And i've gained a strong dislike of the adversarial eliteist atittudes that pvp players bring to pvp focused games. Seen more than a couple games get to be unfun once the dev focus on pvp started.

Absolutely. When Anarchy Online decided to shift to even more of a pvp focus (having to pvp to get top end gear for any character at any level), I stopped playing.
Given the lag and other issues ingame anyway, why would you even want to play pvp on a game hosted on these servers?
Do you even think there's enough pvp experience in the dev team to maintain a pvp environment?

I don't. Starting a thread about how downtrodden all the pvpers in this game are is nothing more than another cry for attention, when 90% of the pvp options ingame aren't used.

Mighty_Bozo
11-01-2011, 11:18 PM
Well, you all say pvp refering to duels, I've played capture the flag with my guildies and was a **** of fun, but wasn't the casters who were dominating the set, was mostly the monks and barbarians the uber killers. Why is that? Well, when u got a team vs team u get buffs from your buddies, crowd controlling spells, so all that burst damage is nothing when you got your back to the ground, or even when a barbarian jumps out of nowhere and catches you unpreppared. Also the main purpose on that capture the flag enviroment isn't achieving the highest number of kills, is to capture more enemy flags than the other team. So is pvp duels unbalanced? Yes they are, but on wich game are they balanced? DDO combat system works because the same rules for monsters applies to players, except monsters have a ****load more hp, the one class that I see being sort of useless on this kind of pvp setting is the rogue class, they can't sneak attack or even sneak past opponents wich is kind of lame.

TBH I think the pvp system is good the way it is right now, but I'd like to see some competition modes even if that means PvE, like a real system where you got like a mirrored kind of dungeon where you get two groups in there but only one final objective and the one that gets to the end first gets a higher bonus or something like that. Let's say that this bonus could be a buff for all the victorious players that'd last for an hour or so.

Delt
11-02-2011, 12:19 AM
MMO players are rats that need cheese. There is no incentive to queue up in the arena's, thus no one uses them. I've been in two "events" and a few guild groups that have made use of the arena's. Everyone had a great time.

If Turbine ever took the time to finally add a little spice to the pvp options they added YEARS ago, I think alot of people would be surprised just how fun a little competition can be.

The pvp naysayers are just wet blankets..."GIT OFF MY PVE LAWN!!!" :D

Chai
11-02-2011, 03:39 PM
MMO players are rats that need cheese. There is no incentive to queue up in the arena's, thus no one uses them. I've been in two "events" and a few guild groups that have made use of the arena's. Everyone had a great time.

If Turbine ever took the time to finally add a little spice to the pvp options they added YEARS ago, I think alot of people would be surprised just how fun a little competition can be.

The pvp naysayers are just wet blankets..."GIT OFF MY PVE LAWN!!!" :D

Problem is: The gear that would entice people to PVP alot more would have to be better than what they already have. Welfare epics are cute and all but handing them to everyone for killing eachother for a few hours a day is teh lulz.

Theyd have to make earning stuff based on participation instead of winning, because playing melee in PVP would be a loss most of the time, and playing melee in a cap the flag scenario wouldnt be worth a group slot.

Being able to entirely gear out a toon in welfare epics through play of another toon is already getting pretty cheap in this game. Being able to do so through PVP participation would give an entire new meaning to piking.

Delt
11-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Problem is: The gear that would entice people to PVP alot more would have to be better than what they already have. Welfare epics are cute and all but handing them to everyone for killing eachother for a few hours a day is teh lulz.

Theyd have to make earning stuff based on participation instead of winning, because playing melee in PVP would be a loss most of the time, and playing melee in a cap the flag scenario wouldnt be worth a group slot.

Being able to entirely gear out a toon in welfare epics through play of another toon is already getting pretty cheap in this game. Being able to do so through PVP participation would give an entire new meaning to piking.

I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, ****, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.

MartinusWyllt
11-02-2011, 04:05 PM
...

An in-game reward as simple as a world broadcast notice (like a guild reaching a certain level) would create a stir around PvP....

Absolutely not. the guild notices, due to the lack of a unique icon, just make me think something is borked on my character as it is. I will never care who "pwned" whom.

Any reward scheme you can devise will be very rapidly exploited.

Chai
11-02-2011, 04:51 PM
I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, ****, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

Hardly one dimensional - We didnt farm the cove hundreds of times because we wanted to run the same thing over and over for a week straight. We did so because of gear. Enticing people to use PVP is one thing. Keeping them there years later will require gear awards.


There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.

Just like a fanboi can always find an excuse to prop it up. Both absolutes are equally absurd.

You will find that my thoughts are something in between, and not negative simply because I dont agree 100% with the PVP crowd.

You will also find that this type of decision boils down to money, and the company will add the pros and cons up dollarwise before making such a decision. Say what you will about those opposed to PVP, but one thing is clear to me through the lack of development of it in this game over five plus years. Its not that popular. If there was money in it, there would be more encouragement to use the system already in place.

They might be able to make it popular using a ranking system, but this wont keep it popular. For that, there will have to be another reason to keep showing up, which boils down to gear rewards. Gear is the driving force behind what will succeed over the long term in DDO. Why else do people have hundreds of Shroud completions, yet barely run Titan anymore? I bet if they beefed up the gear in there you'd see Titan back on the LFM menu.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of people who are pro PVP and are still unfamiliar with most of the game mechanics that already exist for it in this game - because it remains largely unused. Adding more to it when the majority of whats already there is laden with cobwebs doesnt make sense from a business perspective. Most of what you call "wet blankets" are merely pointing out this fact, and stating that they would rather see mechanics that are actually used gain further development in DDO. Then they get labeled "haters" because of it, heh. Oh well.

Delt
11-02-2011, 05:51 PM
Now you are repeating yourself (must be gear and people don't use it now!) and you are bringing up the money angle. Let me cover both...again:

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

- Turbine is finding ways to profit from PvM in lotro (long overdue), they can do it here. They added pvp to DDO because people were absolutely craving things to do besides PvE. Like everything else they added around that time (collectibles/traders, initial recipes, etc) it was half-assed. The fact that it has cobwebs as-is amounts to nothing more than a self-serving argument....DDO and it's PvE had to go FREE to drag it up from the grave and inject population. Population is key and pvp can bring in more players -- even if they don't micro the heck out of pvp, they can still benefit.

People label you a hater because you repeat the same arguments, thread after thread, year after year. You aren't interested in a discussion or possibilities, just putting your same arguments out there. People eventually stop talking with you or participating in the pvp threads you inevitably jump into.

The rest of us will keep making suggestions for improving gameplay variety and improving aspects already in the game.

Chai
11-02-2011, 06:11 PM
Now you are repeating yourself (must be gear and people don't use it now!) and you are bringing up the money angle. Let me cover both...again:

- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

Please inform us: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?


For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

For how long? 2 years from now that system will have the same cobwebs on it that it currently has sans gear rewards.


- Turbine is finding ways to profit from PvM in lotro (long overdue), they can do it here. They added pvp to DDO because people were absolutely craving things to do besides PvE. Like everything else they added around that time (collectibles/traders, initial recipes, etc) it was half-assed. The fact that it has cobwebs as-is amounts to nothing more than a self-serving argument....DDO and it's PvE had to go FREE to drag it up from the grave and inject population. Population is key and pvp can bring in more players -- even if they don't micro the heck out of pvp, they can still benefit.

Shenanigans. The fact that it has cobwebs is evidence that PEOPLE DO NOT USE IT. This is not a self serving answer. Its an observation of fact. I also observe that many PVPers dont use 90% of the features. They sit in the gank pit trash talking those they beat and accusing those who beat them of using cheap tactics. Theres been more than a few occasions where I tried to get some of these same cats into cap the flag, only to be called out and tolds there is no such thing. Roafles. System not used? Most people, even those who favor PVP, dont even KNOW_IT_EXISTS - heh.


People label you a hater because you repeat the same arguments, thread after thread, year after year. You aren't interested in a discussion or possibilities, just putting your same arguments out there. People eventually stop talking with you or participating in the pvp threads you inevitably jump into.

The rest of us will keep making suggestions for improving gameplay variety and improving aspects already in the game.

When those arguements cant be refuted, all I have to do is pull their card each and every time. Im not a hater because im wrong, Im a hater because I am correct, and people who have religiously disagreed with me in the past cant stand it in the present. They also dont answer the questions I have repeatedly asked. Go figure. Its due to the fact that the minute they start thinking down the lines I sent them down, they see exactly what I am talking about. THis brings up another good point Delt. More PVP happens on the forums than in game. :p

I am fine with discussing possibilities. So tell us again, what other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP in DDO, say one year after a revamp? Ill give you a hint, its not bragging rights or titles.

Delt
11-02-2011, 06:43 PM
When those arguements cant be refuted, all I have to do is pull their card each and every time.

There is nothing to refute. Go reread my post. You have ignored the content of my post and opted, once again, to simply repeat yourself. Lets even look at the one question you posed to me: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?

It can't be anymore clear you simply absorb 0% of anything else anyone writes. If you want the answer to that, READ the very portion you quoted.

I'm not flaming you. To be honest, I don't care, I usually ignore your posts, as do many others I've spoken to. But before you rush off to pat yourself on the back over your self proclaimed air tight arguements, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, people get bored of bashing their head and ideas off the brickwall that is Chai.

If not, grats I guess. /shrug

SHOCK_and_AWE
11-02-2011, 06:49 PM
[url=http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253062]...For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

Furthermore;
a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.
d. You can kill opposing heroes (though this won't necessarily help you win the quest)....

There is a significant difference between DotA and DDO: DotA has an RTS interface and DDO is a 3rd-person MMO (it has an action-RPG interface, if you will).

However, you do have a great point: when it comes to PvP, DotA and DDO are birds of a feather! For, you see, with regards to PvP, both
are incredibly imbalanced with cross-class combat
are inane
are repetitive
have a steep learning curve
are absolutely full of the rudest and most mean-spirited players you can imagine
facilitate flaming
are poorly designed and implemented
I've played Warcraft III (read: the RTS, NOT WoW) since its release in 2003 and I can tell you that DotA is one of the least enjoyable scenarios (custom maps/mods) I've ever played. I will not elaborate further, but I just want to say that DotA is the LAST game you want to use as a paragon for DDO PvP.

Chai
11-02-2011, 06:49 PM
There is nothing to refute. Go reread my post. You have ignored the content of my post and opted, once again, to simply repeat yourself. Lets even look at the one question you posed to me: What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP?

It can't be anymore clear you simply absorb 0% of anything else anyone writes. If you want the answer to that, READ the very portion you quoted.

I'm not flaming you. To be honest, I don't care, I usually ignore your posts, as do many others I've spoken to. But before you rush off to pat yourself on the back over your self proclaimed air tight arguements, you should consider that maybe, just maybe, people get bored of bashing their head and ideas off the brickwall that is Chai.

If not, grats I guess. /shrug

Heres your chance then: As of now I am only interested in hearing your response to the question you have glossed over three times now. It is as follows:

What other than gear will keep people coming back for more PVP in DDO, say one year after a revamp?

You clearly stated that thinking only in terms of gear is one dimensional. Then show us where those other dimensions are.

Delt
11-02-2011, 06:55 PM
Seriously? I mean it...seriously?


I doesn't need to be gear, I don't know why you need to think so one dimensionally about it. It can be ranking, cosmetics, titles or, ****, even a fleshed out PvM system similar to LotRO. And those are just my off the cuff ideas.

There are plenty of options to add a carrot to pvp -- the DDO combat mechanics are good enough to make it fun and engaging. A negative Nancy can always find an excuse to poo-poo it.



- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded. It does not have to be. I can be. It can be cosmetic perks, it can be access to buffs/items, it can be titles that must be maintained, it can levelling within a seperate perk set that is only active in pvp, in can be Destiny points (ala LotRo). It can be a vehicle for dev events. I can go on and on. You can poo-poo each random possibility and claim, baselessly, people won't participate, but the reality is in-game motivation has NEVER been present for DDO pvp.

For the few player/guild organized pvp events, people had a great time and looked forward to the next.

Chai
11-02-2011, 06:56 PM
So one year after PVP revamp, people will be coming back in droves for bragging rights maintenance and occasional events?

Seriously?

No.

Gear will drive this MUCH harder than any of that stuff, one year later. those things can be used to gets peoples foot in the door, but a year later, if thats all the reason to run PVP, it will look like it does now.

Desolate.

P.S. LOTRO is a WOW clone if there ever was one. DDO is not. Apples, oranges. Lets hear some actual suggestions that will work HERE better than previously proclaimed one dimensional gear motivation. Lets get specific.

Delt
11-02-2011, 07:03 PM
poo-poo'd

The reply I expected. A complete dismissal of everything said, swept away with your infallible logic that amounts to "nu uh".

Air tight Chai. Air tight.

I'm so indifferent about you at this point and can't even work up the motivation for a face palm pic. Later...you can chalk this up as another "win".

Chai
11-02-2011, 07:07 PM
Air tight Chai. Air tight.

I'm so indifferent about you at this point and can't even work up the motivation for a face palm pic. Later...you can chalk this up as another "win".

You dont want to have this conversation because there_is_no_conversation. This is a gear driven game. If not, please tell us for what incentive people will come back to PVP one year after a revamp, that is better than gear, specifically and in relation to this game.

Hint: Turbine has already answered this question, by not developing PVP.


The reply I expected. A complete dismissal of everything said, swept away with your infallible logic that amounts to "nu uh".




- Your opinion of "must-be gear carrots!" is noted. And discarded.

Why oh why do you continue to accuse me of doing things you are actually the one doing?

Delt
11-02-2011, 07:28 PM
Why oh why do you continue to accuse me of doing things you are actually the one doing?

I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- we have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

Chai
11-02-2011, 07:42 PM
Because unlike you, I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- with have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, permadeath, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

I didnt say ONLY gear will incentivize this game. I stated, pretty clearly, that it is the best incentive. I also showed pretty clearly, both in present AND past conversations where I asked that EXACT same question, along with the observation of lack of response followed by high quantities of waffling, that even those who visably disagree with me clearly understand what I am saying. Factually disproven? What you did was state your OPINION (not fact) that they could drive PVP in the LONG TERM with something other than gear. I stated that they could do this in the short term, but in the long term, none of the reasons you gave would have the majority of players coming back a year after the revamp (long term), like incentivising with gear would do.

All of these absolute assumptions you are making about my stance on the issue are incorrect, as is the assumption that those who disagree with PVP development in this game are haters.

cdbd3rd
11-02-2011, 10:48 PM
...<stuff>...


...<stuff>...


So rarely do I get to use this one: http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/cdemotes/yesno.gif

Any sort of material benefit from PvP would immediately be abused by sets of friends giving up easy kills to each other to get those benefits. Same with titles or what have you.

Otoh, having a seperate system such as LOTRO has, reduces the inter-personal conflict that always seems to arise in general PvP scenarios as it follows the player vs monster premise. The few non-material benefits gained there seem to keep folks involved over the years.


Am still anti-PvP in DDO.... but I wouldn't mind playing a Kobold some day. Or an Ogre Shaman.... :rolleyes: ;)

AmatsukaIncarnate
11-03-2011, 01:46 AM
You make very good points about the difficulties of incorporating PvP in DDO.

Personally I advocate selling PvP maps individually such as a DotA (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253062) style map. I see this idea as perfect as the focus of the map is PvE and so perfectly fits in with the structure of D&D. Additionally, this structure perfectly addresses the need to build revenue from the sale of the map.


This is what I think could be a great way to implement DDO PvP. If you introduced a PvE element (as opposed to simply a deathmatch) the imbalance between classes could be minimized.

For one, I think that even if players could kill each other on the DoTA map, casters would be at a disadvantage for using their mana simply to kill other players if there were no mana pots and shrines. This assumes that this map lasts long enough for casters to need to conserve mana however...(also ressing should be like releasing where you go back to the start point without refilling mana. however, hp should be recovered)

As to how to get cross server interplay, I wonder if its possible to set aside an instance that all servers could access. That way, an entire server doesn't need to be created to make this possible because I see that as kind of a hassle as well.

As for rewards, there was this pretty neat mmo called RF Online where the giant PVP arena opens up every 8 hours and the three different races (or hopefully in our case, servers) fight each other to "possess" the arena which is filled with ore that you mine for better equipment. Also, the people who were involved and won got a small bonus stat boost until the next fight. I think something like that could be implemented where a server gets +3% xp bonus with +1 to loot or something like that until the next round. This way, it gives motivation for people to get involved.

The hard part about something that has this many people involved though was how to organize everyone to do something meaningful...Something like this would be a huge undertaking on Turbine's part...heh

Chai
11-03-2011, 07:23 AM
So rarely do I get to use this one: http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/cdemotes/yesno.gif

Any sort of material benefit from PvP would immediately be abused by sets of friends giving up easy kills to each other to get those benefits. Same with titles or what have you.

You dont award people for killing eachother over and over, they are awarded for completing objectives, like winning a cap the flag for example. When its teams, and players dont get to decide everyone they play against, or with for that matter, its not easy to find a high number of players who just want to roll over and die so the other team can get their loot.


Otoh, having a seperate system such as LOTRO has, reduces the inter-personal conflict that always seems to arise in general PvP scenarios as it follows the player vs monster premise. The few non-material benefits gained there seem to keep folks involved over the years.

Ive played the game. I dont see nearly the number of people using PVP there as there were when it was rolled out. Yeah people still use it, but alot of people flocked to it to try it out, then tapered off to those who are really interested.

Compare that to WOW, where the awards can be used to buy entire suits of high tier PVP armor and weapons. I actually see MORE players there now - and remember waiting alot longer in queues back in the day when there werent good rewards. People line up in droves, and there are ALOT of players who have toons built specifically for PVP use and nothing else.



Am still anti-PvP in DDO.... but I wouldn't mind playing a Kobold some day. Or an Ogre Shaman.... :rolleyes: ;)

Would the same number of people continue to come back to it a year after revamp for that? Its a good perk. I just dont see it as a better incentive than gear businesswise. People will farm til their eyeballs bleed for some better gear in DDO.

Chai
11-03-2011, 11:09 AM
Alot of these have been done in other games with various degrees of success.


This is what I think could be a great way to implement DDO PvP. If you introduced a PvE element (as opposed to simply a deathmatch) the imbalance between classes could be minimized.

The higher the number of players per team the more balance there is in that scenario. 24 on 24 with a queue system would be awesome. One equalizer in large groups is the gang tackle, heh.


For one, I think that even if players could kill each other on the DoTA map, casters would be at a disadvantage for using their mana simply to kill other players if there were no mana pots and shrines. This assumes that this map lasts long enough for casters to need to conserve mana however...(also ressing should be like releasing where you go back to the start point without refilling mana. however, hp should be recovered)

I can see it already. Hey guys, lets camp the shrine!!! - Would be both hilarious and infuriating at the same time. Then your homeboys would have to decide whats worth more, liberating the shrine so your casters can mana up, or trying to complete the objective to gain more (insert quantification of victory here) points.


As to how to get cross server interplay, I wonder if its possible to set aside an instance that all servers could access. That way, an entire server doesn't need to be created to make this possible because I see that as kind of a hassle as well.

Been done on other games. Works most of the time Ive seen it in play. I dont see an entire server that we go through in a queue system a bad thing, because they could have that server down while loading a PVP patch, while the PVE game is still up.


As for rewards, there was this pretty neat mmo called RF Online where the giant PVP arena opens up every 8 hours and the three different races (or hopefully in our case, servers) fight each other to "possess" the arena which is filled with ore that you mine for better equipment. Also, the people who were involved and won got a small bonus stat boost until the next fight. I think something like that could be implemented where a server gets +3% xp bonus with +1 to loot or something like that until the next round. This way, it gives motivation for people to get involved.

In WOW there were a few of these zone wide PVP where if one side controlled the city they got a bonus (Nagrand for instance). Actually killing other players was the way to earn the tokens to buy the gear reward, which could only be bought in the city, and only when it was under your teams control.


The hard part about something that has this many people involved though was how to organize everyone to do something meaningful...Something like this would be a huge undertaking on Turbine's part...heh

And how to keep them coming back for more, without having everyone equipped in the same exact suits of gear all looking like clones. We even saw this for a while a few years ago in PVE when DT was the best endgame armor, which had that "same team" look regardless of who was wearing it, heh.

jaegarnel
11-04-2011, 05:48 AM
I can make a case for my statements (don't worry, I am aware you didn't actually read anything I wrote). DDO is more than a gear driven game -- we have favor, buffs, ships, an achievement forum, consumables, TRs, collectables, PrE's, stats, crafting, roleplaying, emotes and cosmetics. Many of those were added long after release. We don't have titles, we don't have rankings (we will soon), we don't have a lot of things.

If your arguement were Turbine has lazily made DDO primarily gear driven. I might agree with you. But that in itself is not an arguement, especially against pvp improvements.

Your argument that "DDO is a gear driven game and only gear will incentivize pvp" fails on 4 levels. 1) I've factually disproven that above. 2) It dismisses the reality that gear would also be a good carrot for pvp. 3) It falsely presents the notion that a game can never be more that it is initially. 4) It is your personal opinion based on a what-if.

This, just fyi, is my last reply to you.

The problem with your list is that every single element in it is tied to the gear and xp acquisition that most players are interested about.

You get favor by doing quests which are the main way of getting xp and gear. Sure, there are people who like having high favor, and most will farm some favor for the rewards, but if you dissociated favor from quests, I'm pretty sure most players wouldn't care enough about it to farm it.

Ships and buffs are the same thing, the renown for those, like favor, is acquired in quests, and most importantly, players want those to make quests (i.e. gear and xp acquisition) easier.

Achievement forum, yes people always like to brag, however most of the posts are by the same people over and over, and I'd wager the majority of players just doesn't care about it.
Also, when people post achievements they're bragging as much if not more about the awesome gear that enabled that achievement.

As for the rest of your list, show me players who are actually driven to play this game for collecting collectables or the awesome cosmetics. I don't think you'll find many.
Sure there are players who like crafting and roleplaying, but they're as much a minority as PvPers.


The fact is that after the initial discovery factor, people are driven to play content by loot, xp and overall fun factor, and quests that get replayed are those who give an outstanding amount of at least one.
The only reason Shroud is the most popular raid in the game by far is that the gear from it is the most useful in the game, and furthermore is unbound which means it provides a great plat source even to people who have all the GS they want.


Denying that most players in this game are loot-driven and that only loot or xp incentives will keep them coming back after the initial fun factor has worn off is denying the obvious, sorry.

And fyi I am totally against adding loot or xp incentives to pvp.

pie2655
11-04-2011, 06:02 AM
I know exactly where you are coming from and I have advocated the same concept in the past, but no one wants to hear it. Instead they rather neg rep you hoping you never type PvP into another post again.

I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?

It is not required that a barbarian be able to kill a wizard in a 1v1 fight in order for fun team PvP to exist. If you get frustrated that your barbarian keeps getting owned by casters, develop a new tactic or go roll a caster for PvP. If you don't think that should be required to PvP effectivly, then don't PvP.

I also think awards for PvP should exist that do not effect the core PvE part of the game. The rewards could be cosmetic, we already know turbine has that ability. It is enough of a reward for people good at PvP to have something to show for it, but does not effect PvE at all.

I also do not think it would be time consuming or difficult to do, they already have most of the concept in place. They have team arenas but no one uses them. I think a que system that allows you to leave the tavern, stay qued and only drop you from que if you enter a quest would help.

I guarantee that if PvP had a reward of a cosmetic only crown, just like cosmetic armor upgrades, that was a reward for team PvP only, people would do it. And if enough of the polpulation ends up enjoying it, then more maps can be added, and rewards that do not not effect PvE.

I think this is a great idea. I played this game for around 2 years and it started getting boring for me but i think improved pvp might draw me back to the game.

FranOhmsford
11-04-2011, 06:15 AM
I brought up this suggestion in another thread - Can't remember which one so:

Have a Priest of the Sovereign Host in House P ask adventurers to defend some Sov. Host worshippers from a Fanatical Silver Flame Inquisitor's Mercenaries.

I'm sure there are other quests where 2 groups of players could take both roles.

Possibles incl:

All of Necropolis - Emerald Claw Vs Silver Flame
Hiding in Plain Sight - Hazadill needs a hand {this could work for pt 3 of the Baudry Chain too}.
Mired in Halflings - Sinvala's not impressed with Kobolds {this could work for all races equally - public instance for that one race}.
Shroud Pt 2 - Harry wants real back up.

SHOCK_and_AWE
11-04-2011, 12:33 PM
I know exactly where you are coming from and I have advocated the same concept in the past, but no one wants to hear it. Instead they rather neg rep you hoping you never type PvP into another post again.

I think it would be amazing if DDO had team PvP. The argument is always that balancing would occur and this would effect PvE, but this is entirely untrue. If you have 2 teams and they both have access to the exact same classes and races, what is there to balance?

It is not required that a barbarian be able to kill a wizard in a 1v1 fight in order for fun team PvP to exist. If you get frustrated that your barbarian keeps getting owned by casters, develop a new tactic or go roll a caster for PvP. If you don't think that should be required to PvP effectivly, then don't PvP.

I also think awards for PvP should exist that do not effect the core PvE part of the game. The rewards could be cosmetic, we already know turbine has that ability. It is enough of a reward for people good at PvP to have something to show for it, but does not effect PvE at all.

I also do not think it would be time consuming or difficult to do, they already have most of the concept in place. They have team arenas but no one uses them. I think a que system that allows you to leave the tavern, stay qued and only drop you from que if you enter a quest would help.

I guarantee that if PvP had a reward of a cosmetic only crown, just like cosmetic armor upgrades, that was a reward for team PvP only, people would do it. And if enough of the polpulation ends up enjoying it, then more maps can be added, and rewards that do not not effect PvE.

This is an excellent idea. I've participated in two or three arena matches and I can tell you that they were much more enjoyable than even the most intense tavern brawls. I think this is because players were working in teams to achieve a goal (such as capturing the flag) and all classes at least could play a role.

While such a system still favors spellcasting classes, it would be a step in the right direction to emphasize this style of goal-oriented PvP.

stretchcore
11-05-2011, 08:00 AM
I brought up this suggestion in another thread - Can't remember which one so:

Have a Priest of the Sovereign Host in House P ask adventurers to defend some Sov. Host worshippers from a Fanatical Silver Flame Inquisitor's Mercenaries.

I'm sure there are other quests where 2 groups of players could take both roles.

Possibles incl:

All of Necropolis - Emerald Claw Vs Silver Flame
Hiding in Plain Sight - Hazadill needs a hand {this could work for pt 3 of the Baudry Chain too}.
Mired in Halflings - Sinvala's not impressed with Kobolds {this could work for all races equally - public instance for that one race}.
Shroud Pt 2 - Harry wants real back up.
This is actually not a bad idea, as long as the scenarios you play aren't ones that would affect the storyline that runs through DDO. As previously stated, I dislike the pvp model of kills for loot that anarchy online took up, and don't think that's a good direction for DDO to go in. As soon as people worked out they could just let the other side win, and then take turns, it devolved into a waiting game more than anything else.
Anyway, I'm not convinced this thread is accomplishing anything more than
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

~sumptingwong
11-05-2011, 12:59 PM
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

~sumptingwong
11-08-2011, 08:00 PM
No PVP, DDO isnt balanced for PVP, go play WoW... etc.

Someone failed their sarcasm check, owell rep is of no point and should be removed (:

Ssdprref
02-06-2012, 04:34 PM
You guys realize how gimped Casters (not divines) are on pvp.
With the exception of Wizard Past life, and Acid. All other spells can be 100% negated. All of them, Niacs, Lance, Fireball, Swarm, whail, etc.

Just get your Cloak of fire,Djinnnis, Firestorm, Epic Demonscale and 2 Greensteels with llllll absorbtion. If you want to be unbeatable grind for it. There is also EMirror cloak for those FV's. Really stop whining about it and start grinding.

protokon
02-07-2012, 01:13 AM
Hater's gonna hate.

I used to like PVP...but then I took an arrow to the knee.

Joking aside, I don't mind PVP but I don't bother participating in it anymore, since it's nothing more than sorcs using <insert savant ability here> to own people through spell absorption items.

or divines spamming divine punishment. Or people spamming past life magic missiles + meteor swarm with eardwellers. You get the idea.

Fundamental
02-28-2012, 08:04 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, so you think casters own in pvp? Poor guy, what server you play on dude? haha.



Joking aside, I don't mind PVP but I don't bother participating in it anymore, since it's nothing more than sorcs using <insert savant ability here> to own people through spell absorption items.
or divines spamming divine punishment. Or people spamming past life magic missiles + meteor swarm with eardwellers. You get the idea.

"PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP" = fact you know nothing about a real pvp build.

Until a little fellow called Afterimage deciced to make a Kensai AA Evader ranger for all those sorcs and WF wizards who like to stun and use earthgrab.
A simple cheap 28 point highly advanced ;p build with a pale and will planned epics, bows.

Here on Ghallanda there used to be a lot of these so called uber casters, thinking they were all great and bad *** with their monks levels, TR misseles and big mouths, I fought each and single one of them over the years, I fought 5 casters at a time, monks and virtuoso bards, whatever they could throw at me and I did win, did I use mean tactics, sure. Did they use meaner tactics yup, was I smarter, yeah.
Fighting a caster, don't waste your time on a another caster. Same for Divines.
Puny little earthgrab's of 40+ reflex, not a problem.
No more casters, no more troubles, you attack me you'll die in 0.1 second on a Epic or L2 bow you will never be able to dodge unless you got 70 AC and insane dr.
Casters are just for show, rangers kill.

Emphasized, the most feared ranger of Ghallanda has spoken.

The smartest most cunning player wins in PVP, that what makes it so well designed and balanced, you create you own build and you outsmart your enemies you win no matter what a TR legend WF tells you, no matter if 10 WF TR legends of ravensguard stand in the pit laughing at you.

You can win.

Uska
02-28-2012, 09:55 AM
I see what you are saying. But I play DDO because it has no PVP. :cool:

If someone wants a PVP game then let them go play something else, leave DDO to us that want no part of it. That is my opinion ;)

this

Chai
02-28-2012, 03:51 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, so you think casters own in pvp? Poor guy, what server you play on dude? haha.



"PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP" = fact you know nothing about a real pvp build.

Until a little fellow called Afterimage deciced to make a Kensai AA Evader ranger for all those sorcs and WF wizards who like to stun and use earthgrab.
A simple cheap 28 point highly advanced ;p build with a pale and will planned epics, bows.

Here on Ghallanda there used to be a lot of these so called uber casters, thinking they were all great and bad *** with their monks levels, TR misseles and big mouths, I fought each and single one of them over the years, I fought 5 casters at a time, monks and virtuoso bards, whatever they could throw at me and I did win, did I use mean tactics, sure. Did they use meaner tactics yup, was I smarter, yeah.
Fighting a caster, don't waste your time on a another caster. Same for Divines.
Puny little earthgrab's of 40+ reflex, not a problem.
No more casters, no more troubles, you attack me you'll die in 0.1 second on a Epic or L2 bow you will never be able to dodge unless you got 70 AC and insane dr.
Casters are just for show, rangers kill.

Emphasized, the most feared ranger of Ghallanda has spoken.

The smartest most cunning player wins in PVP, that what makes it so well designed and balanced, you create you own build and you outsmart your enemies you win no matter what a TR legend WF tells you, no matter if 10 WF TR legends of ravensguard stand in the pit laughing at you.

You can win.

LOL

Those evasion builds are a dime a dozen - they certainly arent a secret. Slayer arrow procs are blocked with a shield and most casters can self heal through many shot. Tempest just gets flogged outright.

My first life wizard disintegrates those evasion builds just as fast as they can jump into the pit. I dont build for or play PVP alot. I just screw around and kill some time.

Sure there are times when a caster will lose to a melee, but casters who lose to melee alot are doing it wrong.

On the converse, there are ALOT of ways a caster can beat a melee so theres no way a melee can gear for and metagame against every single thing a caster can do. If a caster does get beat by melee, a simple adjustment is required to ensure they will roflpwn the same melee afterward, repeatedly.

600 hitpoint toaster liches and 650 hitpoint FvS with shield mastery and 2 level of monk steamroll just about everything else in PVP. Manyshot builds have 20 seconds to succeed, and 100 seconds after that to run around like a chicken with its head cut off - pales arent that tough to clear.

Teharahma
03-01-2012, 06:26 AM
LOL

Those evasion builds are a dime a dozen - they certainly arent a secret. Slayer arrow procs are blocked with a shield and most casters can self heal through many shot. Tempest just gets flogged outright.

My first life wizard disintegrates those evasion builds just as fast as they can jump into the pit. I dont build for or play PVP alot. I just screw around and kill some time.

Sure there are times when a caster will lose to a melee, but casters who lose to melee alot are doing it wrong.

On the converse, there are ALOT of ways a caster can beat a melee so theres no way a melee can gear for and metagame against every single thing a caster can do. If a caster does get beat by melee, a simple adjustment is required to ensure they will roflpwn the same melee afterward, repeatedly.

600 hitpoint toaster liches and 650 hitpoint FvS with shield mastery and 2 level of monk steamroll just about everything else in PVP. Manyshot builds have 20 seconds to succeed, and 100 seconds after that to run around like a chicken with its head cut off - pales arent that tough to clear.

Don't bother with Afterimage, everyone on the server knows he's a noob.

drathdragon
03-01-2012, 06:43 AM
i didn't read all the posts in this thread... but i have my personal opinion about the PVP in DDO.

and it's simple.. very simple.


Dear turbine,

give me a valley where only lvl20 toons can enter it... where there are no rules, no restrictions
PURE PVP UNLEASHED.
and may be a forest in there with some mobs and a little village in the center with some houses and npc vendors and healers.

would be awesome and funny ..not like the tavern pvp that is so boring and silly

cdbd3rd
03-01-2012, 06:56 AM
The only thing worse than another PvP thread, is an old PvP thread getting necroed again just to further....


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif


Leave the poor thing be. :(

Aurora1979
03-01-2012, 07:04 AM
Im a non PvP player but once in a pvp thread i put up a suggestion.

Turbine should employ X number of people solely to work on PvP. they could create another server or just make another huose type area, an instance where PvP rules apply.

I suggested that this be funded by being a pay to play operation.

that way the people who want PvP could buy the "pack" and the ones who dont wont.

Then turbine could see exactly how much money they have for PvP development and then apply it according.

The response I got on that thread?

Very negative. basically that isnt good enough. What pro PvP'ers want is their cake for free.

Problem is it wont be for free it will be at the expense of the team developing non pvp content. Thats why there is opposition.

Hence, if the PvP'ers pay for the work to be done, problem solved but no apparently.

Galeria
03-01-2012, 07:24 AM
I would love to see team player vs player content that didn't involve just killing the other team. I'd love to see competitive timed challenges, a race to complete an objective or other team sports that have nothing to do with pwning other players individually and everything to do with strategy, teamwork and skill.

Don't see it happening though.

ThePrincipal
03-02-2012, 11:53 AM
Disable fortification in the pits.

Require all spells to have saves in the pits.

I just fixed pvp in ddo. You're welcome.

Elaril
03-06-2012, 01:07 PM
I <3 PvP in most games. I don't particularly care for it in DDO. It's fun on occasion to kill and be killed in DDO, but the devs have made it so there is no point to PvPing in my eyes. I hate the brawl pits and I don't care for the team pvp either.

I'm not sure that there is any thing the Devs could do to make it more appealing to me given the current state of the game, but that's just me. Some people do like it, though. More power to em, I say.

mostoasty
03-08-2012, 10:22 AM
Casters are just for show, rangers kill.


if they can hit you. but yea i agree rangers are a great counter to casters

Knight_slayer
07-02-2012, 01:49 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, so you think casters own in pvp? Poor guy, what server you play on dude? haha.



"PvP in ddo, cannot have progression within the PvP setting, and is bound to the pen and paper idea of casters. This is why casters dominate in PvP" = fact you know nothing about a real pvp build.

Until a little fellow called Afterimage deciced to make a Kensai AA Evader ranger for all those sorcs and WF wizards who like to stun and use earthgrab.
A simple cheap 28 point highly advanced ;p build with a pale and will planned epics, bows.

Here on Ghallanda there used to be a lot of these so called uber casters, thinking they were all great and bad *** with their monks levels, TR misseles and big mouths, I fought each and single one of them over the years, I fought 5 casters at a time, monks and virtuoso bards, whatever they could throw at me and I did win, did I use mean tactics, sure. Did they use meaner tactics yup, was I smarter, yeah.
Fighting a caster, don't waste your time on a another caster. Same for Divines.
Puny little earthgrab's of 40+ reflex, not a problem.
No more casters, no more troubles, you attack me you'll die in 0.1 second on a Epic or L2 bow you will never be able to dodge unless you got 70 AC and insane dr.
Casters are just for show, rangers kill.

Emphasized, the most feared ranger of Ghallanda has spoken.

The smartest most cunning player wins in PVP, that what makes it so well designed and balanced, you create you own build and you outsmart your enemies you win no matter what a TR legend WF tells you, no matter if 10 WF TR legends of ravensguard stand in the pit laughing at you.

You can win.

Most feared ranger? Please. My lvl 6 monk 6 rog killed that lvl 20 epic geared ranger multiple times.

Uska
07-02-2012, 02:02 PM
this is rapidly becoming me standard responce to pvp threads.

any future pvp development should be a 'pack' that has to be bought. the sales figures would answer once and for all the feasability of pvp development.

the forum users represent a tiny portion of the player base, so all the shouting here is not realy representative of the typical player.

ps. im not a hater, but i probly only spend 1% or less of my game time in any kind of pvp setting.

should be expensive enough that they can bring extra devs so content for the majority and bug fixes wouldnt be slowed down also zero rewards that could ever ever affect pve

also even VIP's should have to pay to help prove how much interest there really is in pvp

Uska
07-02-2012, 02:05 PM
Unfortunately I tend to imagine that without some development of a PVP system which is appropriate to DDO that eventually our game will die.


I disagree adding pvp wont change that a bit the game will die at some point and I dont think adding pvp will extend that by one day. But thats just me. making pvp to important could hasten my departure though.

Uska
07-02-2012, 02:07 PM
I see what you are saying. But I play DDO because it has no PVP. :cool:

If someone wants a PVP game then let them go play something else, leave DDO to us that want no part of it. That is my opinion ;)

me to

cdbd3rd
07-02-2012, 02:08 PM
Keep in mind, this was restarted again by a pointless 4-month necro that looks to have been nothing more than an attempt to...
...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif


...and bait folks into the same old debates.

Uska
07-02-2012, 02:22 PM
Keep in mind, this was restarted again by a pointless 4-month necro that looks to have been nothing more than an attempt to...


...and bait folks into the same old debates.

I really should start reading dates on threads:o

gerardIII
07-02-2012, 02:59 PM
One of the best Ideas I've seen was to have a seperate PvP server like lamania where you could transfer your character and fight intersever PvP battles. Orien vs Canith! This way the entire world could be a big PVP arena with no quests or questing, and all skills, items and classes could be incorporated and balanced properly without affecting the game. Scores could be added, and PVP guilds could be formed.
Tournaments, teamfights, arenas, etc could all come together.
Instead of entering a quest, you would enter a PVP instance. The party UI could be smaller to allow for larger teams. Different scenarios and minigames could be incorporated. This way, the haters could be PVP free in the main gaming world and the PVPers could get the balancing that they want in the PVP world.

You can keep dreaming about PvP it won't happen.

Server vs server PvP, guild airships battles, guild islands assaults ... I don't want all the drama, keep that away from my DDO.

fco-karatekid
07-02-2012, 03:09 PM
One of if not the biggest reasons I'm still playing after most of two years. Thank you for bringing it up. :)

add me to that list.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
07-02-2012, 03:17 PM
The future of PVP in DDO is about as https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnRlQdJtRKFG37mj8uyWADTyNgnPY9V PWaYHG-9gEU6LltqLBE8g as this thread.

captain1z
07-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Keep in mind, this was restarted again by a pointless 4-month necro that looks to have been nothing more than an attempt to...


...and bait folks into the same old debates.
Pffft lazy good for nothing horses.

DoctorWhofan
07-04-2012, 02:37 AM
This is the reason most PVP happens on the forums, and not just in pvp threads. :/

My 2cp is that if there's going to be ongoing changes to ddo, new classes/enhancements/PREs etc, that would necessitate rebalancing for PVE, they would also require more dev time rebalancing for PVP. This means more financial and hours worked cost to turbine, so higher prices for us, and more time to wait between updates.



Absolutely. When Anarchy Online decided to shift to even more of a pvp focus (having to pvp to get top end gear for any character at any level), I stopped playing.
Given the lag and other issues ingame anyway, why would you even want to play pvp on a game hosted on these servers?
Do you even think there's enough pvp experience in the dev team to maintain a pvp environment?

I don't. Starting a thread about how downtrodden all the pvpers in this game are is nothing more than another cry for attention, when 90% of the pvp options ingame aren't used.

THis...and what Chai said.

It isn't the ...center...of this game. Yes, in PnP you can do anything, however, the majority of people played, "You and 3 other adventurers you met in the bar go off to fight the dragon and have great adventures together."

PnP wasn't marketed FOR the concept of PvP, though you can have that if you so choose to. All the adventures you could buy, all the maps and such, were all about theGROUP and not the individual.

Personally, I find PvP selfish and cruel. Even team PvP. Maybe not everyone is, but eventually the elitists will come (due to their current boredom with whatever game they are playing) and PvP will become all about ME. Or MY GUILD and ME. But always ME.

Another factor to be realised is at the beginning of this game, THE WAS NO PVP. Not even the little bit we currently have. Yes people left but many stayed. I'd bet there is a high percentage of people who stuck it out until f2p or even past it. THese are the guys who pay the subs without thinking about it. And if you took a survey, most of them would say that the y stayed for the fact there was no PvP (as one of their reasons)

It was mine. Everytime I got bored, went to another game (well outside LotRO) then got smacked with the trash talk and the constant challenges. Rift, which is a good game, it was the same deal. Flagged as non PvP then comes a world event. I help healing suddenly I am PvP. THat was the death knell for me with that game.

If that isn't enough, realise what you are all discribing about balancing changing gear and such, is a new game. Really? Do you think if they did that people would come? Do you wish that the current bugs stay bugged and no more quests placed in the game so they can work on this new "game?"

gerardIII
07-04-2012, 03:30 AM
I see a PvP LFM once every two months = there is no need for more PvP features.

grgurius
07-04-2012, 04:28 AM
Imo, this game has the perfect PvP system, marginalized and without any influence on the rest of the game. So its fine as it is.

Aashrym
07-04-2012, 02:59 PM
I enjoy the game without PvP, see no reason to go gank less geared/experienced/lower level characters in the pits, and see no reason to spend development on something I don't use and don't want to use over more content, character options, and bug fixes. I can PvP in other games but I enjoy this one more.

The team vs team and capture the flag are better options that tavern brawling pits for PvP.

Over the years I've been playing I've only ever heard players discussing PvP ingame in one TOD run and I was challenged once while running through the harbor. I've had a lot of players want to run quests and I've had more blind tells than possible to track to run those.

My experience isn't that players hate PvP. Most of them simply choose to actually play the game and leave the PvP folks alone.

This simply isn't a game that works well with PvP.

captain1z
07-04-2012, 08:32 PM
Ok fine. If we are going to continue to post in this necro'd thread then I will share a pvp experience from time spent playing Aion.

Like most standard mmo's, aion has a light side vs dark side set up.
Each faction has zones that deny the other faction access, so u may freely level to 20.
Zones beyond 20 are basicly a free for all.

Now, every character over 10 th level can fly but 95% of your objectives are on the ground.
So, what dark side characters do is hover in packs above light side objectives and when light side guy walks over to "kill 6 zombie dogs and take thier pelts"............ HE GETS GANKED!

Thus making it very hard to level. The darkside group shares the kill, which counts as 1 for everyone who got a hit in and after a certain amount are able to buy pvp gear and powers. Which are by far the most powerful pieces of equipment in the game and the best looking.

Star Wars had a similiar pvp gear system but u need permission to attack someone outside the limited pvp zones.

When I get ganked in DDO I expect it to be by monsters, not by players.

I think lack of a more robust pvp system is what in part makes the population more friendly/helpful towards each other.

GolemTheDarkBeing
09-29-2013, 05:25 PM
this Idea is Terrible if pvp were fully developed as an aspect of this game nerfs/buffs would be issued for no other reason than pvp. In fact pvp is the cause of a lot of already nerfed abilities noone complains about something being overpowered unless you're a noob getting carried or you're in pvp getting **** on. stop whining and get some skill

Marcus-Hawkeye
09-29-2013, 05:59 PM
Nice. This thread has been necro'd more times than I've tried PVP now!

lyrecono
09-30-2013, 06:14 AM
Holy necro! Batman!

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn172/Hybrid513/am%20i%20doin%20it%20rite%201/holy_thread_resurrection_batman.jpg


Designing a game around factions from the ground-up looks to be the only way to really approach balance in a player v. player environment. I really liked the game that has 3 factions, each has the same kind of classes, but varied.

For example imagine that the spellsinger the virtuoso and the warchanter were classes instead and each belonged to one of the three factions.

Each faction has questing areas strictly PvE and an area to fight other factions...with goals...a giant, 3 team, capture the flag where you can use siege engines and all kinds of stuff and each faction has the same power dynamic.

Though I'd be a little tempted to try a PvP PD server that included friendly and self-fire, fireballs had lethal consequences to the caster on paper...but probably not more than once or twice.


You're in luck, the elderscrolls has this now (many years later)


I simply think that DDO does not have the mechanical basics to make it a good pvp game and all what makes DDO enjoyable would be at stake if they tried to balance it for pvp.

I myself play LoL if I feel the need to smack people in a nice team based combat. No every game must cater to all styles of play. Sometimes it's better to concentrate on what's good about your game and leave the rest for other games.

That said I don't care at all if people participate in brawls in DDO. I just really don't want compromises to be made because of them. I fear it would break more on the PvE side than it would help on the PvP side.

Yep, every update makes things worse, a pvp expansion would too.


We have a DDO that after many years still don't have all the PrEs. Some bugs are still there. Some content still have issues and Epic still need rework quest wise and gear wise.

Why should Turbine spend more time developing PvP that is played by a minority of players?

It IS a waste of resources when there's still so much work to be done in regards to content and classes.

right again!


You dont want to have this conversation because there_is_no_conversation. This is a gear driven game. If not, please tell us for what incentive people will come back to PVP one year after a revamp, that is better than gear, specifically and in relation to this game.

Hint: Turbine has already answered this question, by not developing PVP.



So glad they had never bothered to do enhance pvp, it goes against all that D&D stood for, fun teamwork and all.


So rarely do I get to use this one: http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt291/cdbd3rd/cdemotes/yesno.gif

Any sort of material benefit from PvP would immediately be abused by sets of friends giving up easy kills to each other to get those benefits. Same with titles or what have you.

Seen it happen in Aion a lot!, large guilds of each faction deceiding each week who gets what fortress.


Ok fine. If we are going to continue to post in this necro'd thread then I will share a pvp experience from time spent playing Aion.

Like most standard mmo's, aion has a light side vs dark side set up.
Each faction has zones that deny the other faction access, so u may freely level to 20.
Zones beyond 20 are basicly a free for all.

Now, every character over 10 th level can fly but 95% of your objectives are on the ground.
So, what dark side characters do is hover in packs above light side objectives and when light side guy walks over to "kill 6 zombie dogs and take thier pelts"............ HE GETS GANKED!

Thus making it very hard to level. The darkside group shares the kill, which counts as 1 for everyone who got a hit in and after a certain amount are able to buy pvp gear and powers. Which are by far the most powerful pieces of equipment in the game and the best looking.

Star Wars had a similiar pvp gear system but u need permission to attack someone outside the limited pvp zones.

When I get ganked in DDO I expect it to be by monsters, not by players.

I think lack of a more robust pvp system is what in part makes the population more friendly/helpful towards each other.

Aion was a total mess and the dev's didn't bother, deleting thousands of critticall posts, endulging themselves over a new cosmettic tiger skin.

Forced server merges, incredible lag in the Abyss, incesive ganking, no reliable way of getting end game gear.
drops were abysmal(and often ninja'd), crafting procs were extremely rare so the only reliable way of getting end game gear was grinding lowbies.
Though meant as a pve game with the abys to pvp (a private dev comment), the game started great butt collapsed about 1 year later, people got tired of the incesive ganking and extreme grind.

now about DDO, the reason many play it these days is because of the friendly&fun teamwork--->IMHO<---
i'm not here to hear leet speak from a 12 year old named pownyopantz whille he's sneakhumping my soulstone on how he ganked me on my way to the quest in the stormhorns.

More pvp content? sure, after they fixed pve wich we have paid for!
make it an expansion, ask 50 bucks, after 2 years of recovering time, turbine will hopefully let pvp die of
because, to be honnest, lateley the quality of ddo items has taken a nosedive.
Items some one here called incentive for pvp (i highly doubt that).

Why, instead of whinning about pvp, go buy a propper pvp game, many games have their engines build around that instead of having it tacked on to this game, lately they haven't been able to introduce a pack with out breaking something else. (broken yet paid for stuff that still hasn't been fully fixed yet)
A game that, according to some, is doing so bad, bleeding players left and right, that Turbine felt the need to bleed shards of players in order to gain some money. (shard AH, Loot rerol, shard transport, leaving Eberron for the forgoten realms, Iconics, etc).

I don't hate pvp, i hate the drama around it, i hate the begging for nerfs/bufs over the years/ i hate the time and effort dev's could put into it instead of fixing the game.

/Not signed

Cordovan
09-30-2013, 10:27 AM
I'll miss seeing this thread return in 2014, but closing as a /necro. :)