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Ebonrook
08-23-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm fairly new to the MMO version of DnD, only a couple of months in. I'm tempted to just ascribe this to general min/maxer MMO-mania but maybe there's some sense to it I am not seeing:

Ran Sands yesterday with a full PuG - had an awesome cleric on the team with a splash of fighter - healing left and right and always right up there with the melee - I think he was 11/1 Cleric/Fighter but I might be a lvl off. I know he only had one level of fighter. Point is: he was on top of things the whole while.

Somewhat later, I get picked up by a different team that wants to run Invaders on hard. We have one slot left and the leader wants a "healer"... I had friended this guy so I suggested inviting him and the leader does. Cleric joins us, "Omw...", etc.

So we're about to enter when the leader says "Battle Clerics suck" and *pop* the cleric is booted from the team.

Please explain what happened here. I may not know DDO as well as I know the core rules, but it seems like the leader shot us in the foot. We ended up with a "pure" cleric who ran out of spell points repeatedly.

Cauthey
08-23-2011, 02:53 PM
There are some extremely narrow minded individuals that hold much prejudice against certain types of character builds. The person leading your group appears to have been one of those individuals.

tkscience
08-23-2011, 02:53 PM
Absolutely no explanation asides from a bad experience with battle clerics, or believes what some people say on the forums.

A good player is far more valuable than any particular build.

Make a special note of the leader, and move on.

vraelliott
08-23-2011, 03:31 PM
Had I been the one who gave that recommendation, and that had happened to my friend, I probably would have dropped group, and, depending on how I felt at the moment, I may or may not have commented. Remember the leader's name and don't join their groups in the future.

Good luck with the game, we're not all jerks.

Calebro
08-23-2011, 03:35 PM
So we're about to enter when the leader says "Battle Clerics suck" and *pop* the cleric is booted from the team.

My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

somenewnoob
08-23-2011, 03:37 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

This!

Adrian99
08-23-2011, 03:44 PM
A good player is far more valuable than any particular build.


This is probably the single most important thing to understand about grouping. For 99% of quests, nothing in DDO will ever be as powerful as knowledge of the game, the playstyle suited to your build, and the particulars of the quest you're running. The class split and gear layout are a very distant 2nd and 3rd when determining the likelihood of a smooth completion. There is a tendency for new players to fail in taking this fact into consideration.

Enoach
08-23-2011, 04:03 PM
...
So we're about to enter when the leader says "Battle Clerics suck" and *pop* the cleric is booted from the team.

...

{shakes head}

What we have here is (or a combination of):

A person that doesn't understand DDO
A person that has had a bad experience with a "So Called" battle cleric
A person that believes everything they read from "So Called" experts
A person that could not play a cleric themselves and does not understand the class - either based on Other MMO background or because they believe everything they read or are told


Avoid these types of people, they will be wrong with their assesments most of the time. However, I do wish we could hear more accounts of "Battle Clerics" actually using all of their abilities to benefit the success of their team. Instead we usually get stories of "I don't heal".

+1 Virtual Rep to the Cleric doing it right. And may they be spared having to deal with these types of people during their time here in Stormreach.

Arnhelm
08-23-2011, 04:07 PM
Ignorance and prejudice on the leader's part, imo. Sad.

Ebonrook
08-24-2011, 01:21 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

Win. If only I could travel back in time.

Thanks for the replies guys, good to know this isn't a universal trend in the game.

Gkar
08-24-2011, 01:25 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

Yeah, I'm with you there

Bobthesponge
08-24-2011, 01:26 PM
Win. If only I could travel back in time...

... I would do much better in the lottery.

joaofalcao
08-24-2011, 01:32 PM
Battleclerics have a terrible reputation.

Personally, I dont refuse them, but everytime I accept one in my partys, I get that feeling I shouldnt have done it.

You had a good experience, but 9 out of 10 battleclerics dont care to heal anybody other than themselves.

BOgre
08-24-2011, 02:00 PM
Pretty much agree with everything said above. I have a friend here who plays a Cleric quite well, and contributes to melee constantly. In fact, even though she's a pure cleric, she has saved the day, fighting her way to a shrine with a backpack full of dead melees, more times than I'd like to count. Great gal.

That being said, I do have one quibble:


This is probably the single most important thing to understand about grouping. For 99% of quests, nothing in DDO will ever be as powerful as knowledge of the game, the playstyle suited to your build, and the particulars of the quest you're running. The class split and gear layout are a very distant 2nd and 3rd when determining the likelihood of a smooth completion. There is a tendency for new players to fail in taking this fact into consideration.

My problem with this statement is simply that there is an inordinate amount of quests that seem to NEED a strong caster or two. And some that can be done without, but forget the optionals unless. At least it feeeels that way. Have run several melee heavy pugs that have struggled to get past certain tough spots, and then run the same quests with a caster or two and breezed through in no time.

Just sayin'

Bobthesponge
08-24-2011, 02:43 PM
My problem with this statement is simply that there is an inordinate amount of quests that seem to NEED a strong caster or two. And some that can be done without, but forget the optionals unless. At least it feeeels that way. Have run several melee heavy pugs that have struggled to get past certain tough spots, and then run the same quests with a caster or two and breezed through in no time.

Just sayin'

I have a quibble with this statement. What quests need a caster? Many are easier with a caster (Wiz King, I looks at youse), but they hardly need one.

Adrian99
08-24-2011, 02:59 PM
At least it feeeels that way. Have run several melee heavy pugs that have struggled to get past certain tough spots, and then run the same quests with a caster or two and breezed through in no time.

Just sayin'

I agree, it does feel that way for certain quests. But I think it's more the case that for certain quests a caster or two turns the whole thing into one big easy button, allowing you to have 4 or 5 pikers and still get a fast completion. And perhaps 99% was a bit too strong, it's probably more like 90% :)

Qindark
08-24-2011, 03:00 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

fer sure...win on this one.

jillie
08-24-2011, 03:12 PM
I recently TRd my main to a FvS. Last night, saw a pug up for Nx6 repetitions of a GH walkup. Joined the group, asked if it was self-sufficient, was told yes, and happily grabbed my greatsword. Watched the party, and threw heals as needed - mostly on myself or on the party leader - and blade barriers as I saw fit, while meleeing with the pack.

Only one death in the 5 reps before my computer totally locked up (needing a reboot), and that was an unexpected cast of Disintegrate that nailed the party leader. Raised, Healed, and we went on through the quest ...

Note that I had a healing lore/devotion item available in case of need, and a couple of sup ardor clickies at hand to boot, and sundry other items that would allow me to switch roles if needed. If I'm going to run as the sole divine caster in a group, then I know that most of the party members will look to me for healing; if they don't need much, then kudos to them, and I'll enjoy decimating the mobs. But I feel I should be prepared for the possibility of say, three people missing saves on an AoE spell or the like ... being able to drop back to healbot for a few minutes is simply using abilities that divine casters have to help the party in completing our shared goals.

The party leader that the OP talks about may have met one of the battle-casters who ignores the rest of the party, seeming to not care that the melees doing much of the damage are at under 50% health and likely to die in the next fight ... we don't all play it that way, though!

protokon
08-24-2011, 03:24 PM
unfortunately you will find a *lot* of very narrow-minded leaders out there. They aren't necessarily bad people, but can be quite frustrating to group with - especially with petty things they are heavily misinformed on (such as needing an *exact* party makeup for a raid, will not tolerate newer players in their groups, will be prejudiced towards builds without knowing all the details, ect..)

Every time I see an lfm up with nothing but "no noobs", it reminds me why I'm in such a big guild that takes the first 11 people who say "rfi" in guild chat, regardless of what class they are playing :)

Rauven
08-24-2011, 03:35 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

This!

You forgot /squelch add [player name] and move on.

Note, I am being facetious with a healthy dose of sarcasm.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-24-2011, 04:11 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

Yep!

(although I probably just would have said Thx and dropped, or dropped without a word...)

Just about the only time I leave a group is when they boot someone for no good reason.
Add to it that you had befriended the guy....I would have definately left!

DeafeningWhisper
08-30-2011, 10:55 AM
I once got refused on my 18 Cleric 1 Ftr for VoN5 on norm, VoN6 to be decided by group. Reason? Battle-Clerics don't heal, forget the fact I carry Superior Devotion VI and had 34 wis, with only 20 str no way I can heal an easy raid like that...

There are some players that don't accept splashes either, my 9 Bard/2 Ftr/2 Rog got denied for Eyes of Stone, thou my friend's pure Monk lvl 11 under-geared got in no problem. My bard has eaten +2 dex/con/str tomes, carries improved false life, +6 con item, Minos Legend, +6 str item, 5 Divine Power Clickies, 25% striding, Stormsinger Cloak, Crimson Chain and 2 Rocksplitters of Maiming yet he wasn't "good enough" for this leader. Also my IC add +6 to attack +7 to damage for the whole party.

Hajutze
08-30-2011, 06:24 PM
1. Stay in the party
2. Wait almost until the end of the quest
3. Recall
- Re-enter
4. Repeat pt 3 as much as you can
5. Revenge is best served on cold plate

EpiKagEMO
08-31-2011, 10:35 PM
he hasn't seen the TRUE battle clerics.
unfortunately sonny, this tells you that he is a noob.

Chai
08-31-2011, 10:47 PM
Theres people who understand D&D and theres people who understand MMOs.

The D&D crowd understands that clerics in a D&D based game can fight, and do well at it while not making too much of a sacrifice to being able to keep a group alive.

Some who came from other MMOs see healers as a cloth armor wearing babysitter, who spams heals on the tank and tops off HP on the other melee. I understand why they see this, because in most other MMOs this is what healers are.

But that still doesnt make up for the fact that many players dont see the full potential of the class. Too bad for them.

Whats a cleric in D&D? They are a damage mitigation class. Obviously they heal, but they also buff, and fight, by either meleeing to kill the mob faster which equals less damage to the party, or use offensive casting to kill / debilitate mobs to make them less effective, which also equals less damage to the party.

Theres people who understand D&D and theres people who understand MMOs. Fact is, we play a D&D based game.

TheRealest
08-31-2011, 11:09 PM
Does he want 9 meleese 2 healers 1 caster in his shrouds as well? A party with 2 or 3 melee/caster divines can rock the house on anything because they're all self sufficient and people who want nannybots for quests are not.

Zachski
09-02-2011, 03:41 AM
Does he want 9 meleese 2 healers 1 caster in his shrouds as well? A party with 2 or 3 melee/caster divines can rock the house on anything because they're all self sufficient and people who want nannybots for quests are not.

Indeed.

And if there IS a healer in the party, for every DPS Divine (or WF Arcane) that's one less source of DPS that the healer has to heal.

Ebonrook
09-02-2011, 12:49 PM
1. Stay in the party
2. Wait almost until the end of the quest
3. Recall
- Re-enter
4. Repeat pt 3 as much as you can
5. Revenge is best served on cold plate

I am both ashamed and thrilled to say I did this last week... was on a team run by a guy who, for some reason, wanted to farm the Goldstone Manor quest over and over... easy xp I guess. At one point he invites a 6th, a low lvl sorc, and the sorc, after a moment, says "I've never run this chain before... who do I speak to to get it started?"

Next thing I see is "[Player] has been booted from the party" and the leader saying "I'm tired of helping noobs."

So I quietly exited and re-entered the quest four times then dropped.

You should have seen the PM I got from that guy. :)

Anyway, led the sorc through the quest chain... had a great time and now another player knows some more content.

phalaeo
09-02-2011, 12:52 PM
My response would have been this:

"Leaders who need a healbot suck" and *pop* I drop group.

Yep.

Aragorn41
09-02-2011, 01:09 PM
Sounds like a bad leader with a very big chip on his shoulder....solution: /squelch...but did like the idea of exiting and re-entering, but i'm just not that mean lol

As my for running my pure 18 cleric, well i probably tend to run him as a battle cleric....pop sup ardor clickie, pop aura, grab scimitar and start slaying anything in my path...stop to heal me or others as needed, then more slaying!!!

Point is a cleric can do many things at once..using them any other way seems a waste to me.

His Bio reads: Come with me if you want to live! LOL

Uska
09-02-2011, 02:03 PM
you joined a group lead by someone ignorant but to be fair there are a awful lot of really bad battle clerics and fvs outthere

Battlehawke
09-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Sounds to me, like the leader was an idiot and rude. You should have dropped group and reformed with your B Cleric friend. You would have finished faster.

Zachski
09-02-2011, 08:46 PM
you joined a group lead by someone ignorant but to be fair there are a awful lot of really bad battle clerics and fvs outthere

And that justifies prejudice. </sarcasm>

vraelliott
09-02-2011, 10:06 PM
1. Stay in the party
2. Wait almost until the end of the quest
3. Recall
- Re-enter
4. Repeat pt 3 as much as you can
5. Revenge is best served on cold plate

No reason to punish the other party members because the leader's an idiot...but tempting... very tempting.

Entelech
09-02-2011, 10:25 PM
I'd have dropped group, squelched the leader, then asked the hot BattleCleric if he has a guild.

If yes: Can I join.

If no: Does he want one?

The PUG leader was probably understandably afraid. I've watched a 20th level melee (pure) Favored Soul die six times in PART ONE of the shroud. Yes, part one. I was the only other healer, and that was how many Resurrections I used on her.

Most GOOD Battleclerics get snapped up by guilds fast, and they never have to PUG because everyone who knows them wants them in the party.

The horribly bad ones continue to join PUGs.

spitfirek
09-03-2011, 12:58 PM
The main(and pretty much only) difference between a "good" healer and a "bad" healer is how much the group is self sufficient.

If the group has all members that are good at mitigating/absorbing/self-healing incoming damage as well as being able to put out enough dmg to kill enemies fast, then the healer is "good" because he can actually keep up with the extra dmg that can not be handled by one's self.

A group that has bad players that don't try to mitigate/absorb/self-heal or put out horrible dmg make the healer "bad" because he will run out of mana very fast healing all the stupid ppl. Then they complain because they die because the healer is not healing them because he is out of mana.

Healing in this game is NOT like in other MMOs where the healingbots have unlimited amounts of healing that they can throw out constantly for the whole instance. All mana users in this game have to use their mana sparingly and effectively. A lot of the times I will just let retards die and carry their stone with me instead of wasting mana on them, because I need that mana to keep the good players up(or just solo the quest myself with everyone's soulstones in my backpack).

THAT is why ppl say battleclerics are bad, because they are usually smart enough to not heal idiots when they know they can just use their mana to heal themselves and other good players to make the group actually win the quest.

Zachski
09-03-2011, 11:16 PM
The main(and pretty much only) difference between a "good" healer and a "bad" healer is how much the group is self sufficient.

If the group has all members that are good at mitigating/absorbing/self-healing incoming damage as well as being able to put out enough dmg to kill enemies fast, then the healer is "good" because he can actually keep up with the extra dmg that can not be handled by one's self.

A group that has bad players that don't try to mitigate/absorb/self-heal or put out horrible dmg make the healer "bad" because he will run out of mana very fast healing all the stupid ppl. Then they complain because they die because the healer is not healing them because he is out of mana.

Healing in this game is NOT like in other MMOs where the healingbots have unlimited amounts of healing that they can throw out constantly for the whole instance. All mana users in this game have to use their mana sparingly and effectively. A lot of the times I will just let retards die and carry their stone with me instead of wasting mana on them, because I need that mana to keep the good players up(or just solo the quest myself with everyone's soulstones in my backpack).

THAT is why ppl say battleclerics are bad, because they are usually smart enough to not heal idiots when they know they can just use their mana to heal themselves and other good players to make the group actually win the quest.

Despite the fact that I'm a staunch defender of battle clerics, I don't think this post is fair.

There ARE Clerics that only self heal, and they might be battlers, too. The battlers, however, stand out because they're in the fray, while the casters are behind everyone and less noticeable.

Clerics are not a class that is immune to being played by stupid players. You can't heal stupid, and stupid can't heal you.

Xenostrata
09-03-2011, 11:38 PM
I have a quibble with this statement. What quests need a caster? Many are easier with a caster (Wiz King, I looks at youse), but they hardly need one.

Just going to drop in and mention Inferno of the Damned. I am unaware of any way to douse all of the torches without icestorm.

eonfreon
09-03-2011, 11:43 PM
I am both ashamed and thrilled to say I did this last week... was on a team run by a guy who, for some reason, wanted to farm the Goldstone Manor quest over and over... easy xp I guess. At one point he invites a 6th, a low lvl sorc, and the sorc, after a moment, says "I've never run this chain before... who do I speak to to get it started?"

Next thing I see is "[Player] has been booted from the party" and the leader saying "I'm tired of helping noobs."

So I quietly exited and re-entered the quest four times then dropped.

You should have seen the PM I got from that guy. :)

Anyway, led the sorc through the quest chain... had a great time and now another player knows some more content.

You know you also screwed the other people in the party right?
Were they also responsible for what the leader did?

Zillee
09-03-2011, 11:44 PM
you joined a group lead by someone ignorant but to be fair there are a awful lot of really bad battle clerics and fvs outthere

I've really not seen this. I've seen some poorly played clerics and FvSs, but then I've also seen every other class poorly played at some point or other. On the whole I've generally found them in PUGs to be as good as anyone else in the group. Not really seen this cleric type who only heals themself - think it's a bit of a myth really, or a rare occasion.

However we do tend to remember the quests which go drastically wrong more than all the others. And there is the tendancy to blame the healer rather than look to our own mistakes. If I *ding* in a quest it's usually because I've bitten off more than I can chew.

Whatever the case, the leader referred to by the OP is not one I would follow into battle.

Zillee
09-03-2011, 11:46 PM
Just going to drop in and mention Inferno of the Damned. I am unaware of any way to douse all of the torches without icestorm.

Use the mephits.

Antheal
09-04-2011, 03:25 AM
I'm fairly new to the MMO version of DnD, only a couple of months in. I'm tempted to just ascribe this to general min/maxer MMO-mania but maybe there's some sense to it I am not seeing:

Ran Sands yesterday with a full PuG - had an awesome cleric on the team with a splash of fighter - healing left and right and always right up there with the melee - I think he was 11/1 Cleric/Fighter but I might be a lvl off. I know he only had one level of fighter. Point is: he was on top of things the whole while.

Somewhat later, I get picked up by a different team that wants to run Invaders on hard. We have one slot left and the leader wants a "healer"... I had friended this guy so I suggested inviting him and the leader does. Cleric joins us, "Omw...", etc.

So we're about to enter when the leader says "Battle Clerics suck" and *pop* the cleric is booted from the team.

Please explain what happened here. I may not know DDO as well as I know the core rules, but it seems like the leader shot us in the foot. We ended up with a "pure" cleric who ran out of spell points repeatedly.

The leader was a n00b, blacklist him for being an idiot and move on.

karnokvolrath
09-04-2011, 03:35 AM
A good player is far more valuable than any particular build.


+1 The answer is simple as this.

ToKu
09-04-2011, 03:47 AM
Ultimately he is the group leader and can decide who he wants to take. If I were you i'd just move on.

I know when I was going through my "run nothing but pugs" phase I ran into A LOT of bad players of every form and build. Maybe he just encountered one too many "battle clerics" who refused to heal or only would on themselves and decided a blanket ban was the solution.

Its awesome you found a good cleric, they are rare if the compliments and requests for friends I get when I do runs is any indication. Funny enough I think of myself as only above average because when I play a healer I don't melee, I keep my party alive and cast CC when appropriate.

I have seem some amazing healers who could do what I do AND contribute more.

Mubjon
09-04-2011, 09:27 AM
You know you also screwed the other people in the party right?
Were they also responsible for what the leader did?

Guilt by association, they should have dropped and did the same thing to a poor leader. By choosing to stay they are explicit in helping continue a practice that does nothing to help the game.

Entelech
09-05-2011, 12:50 PM
Guilt by association, they should have dropped and did the same thing to a poor leader. By choosing to stay they are explicit in helping continue a practice that does nothing to help the game.

I disagree.

The groupleader behaved badly. He cost the party a good healer and delayed the start of the adventure accordingly.

But someone else behaving cluelessly does not give you the right to be even worse. Waiting in group then hosing them with multiple reentries makes you a worse jerk than the stupid leader. He acted from ignorance. You acted with full awareness of what a jerk you were being.

Not only that, but you make it less likely that the leader will learn from his mistakes, since you change his outlook from "I wonder why that guy left right after I dropped his friend" to "Gosh, that guy was a childish twit. I'm glad I dumped his idiot battlecleric friend who was probably even worse."

If you want to help the game, control your own behavior. You cannot control anyone else's.

Ebonrook
09-06-2011, 12:24 PM
You know you also screwed the other people in the party right?
Were they also responsible for what the leader did?

Was confused by what you meant until I saw I wrote "...a 6th, a low lvl sorc..." - he invited a "6th level sorc". By the time we got around to this run (hard) it was just he and I.

Edit: Lol too late! Neg rep!

Ah, this community.

Ebonrook
09-06-2011, 12:29 PM
But someone else behaving cluelessly does not give you the right to be even worse. Waiting in group then hosing them with multiple reentries makes you a worse jerk than the stupid leader. He acted from ignorance. You acted with full awareness of what a jerk you were being.



I suppose it's pointless to clarify as people have already gone on a gleeful neg-rep fest due to the other post, but at the time this cleric was invited, the leader and I were the only two in the party and he was trying to rebuild it. Not your fault, I typed "A 6th" in the first post instead of "A 6th level sorc".