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Khurse
08-23-2011, 12:22 AM
I'll start this with the standard admission that yes I play casters, and the DOTs (as they stand) are really screwing up game balance.

I'll make my second point by saying I like the idea of the dots,making them stacking was cool, making them have NO save remains one of the most questionable game "balance" choices I've seen.

While being amongst the most powerful and SP effective damage dealing spells in the game, they have en equal effectiveness for those casters who dump their primary casting stat,and those who do not.

They (and really they alone) are what is causing the "boss kiting" method to cause the concerns it is seeing from the Devs on Lammania. Blade Barriers are saved against. The Dots are not.
Please note Devs, it is not really the wings that cause this issue, it's the DOTs.

This is one of the choices that make me question whether the developers actually play in anything resembling currently accepted "end game" content, or whether they just continually run new toons through the Harbour.
(Or they all play casters)

When my caster (moderately decently elemental specd PM,) can get 3 dots on a target, it does between 3-400 Hp's, and crits in the mid 700's. That's on every tick. Add in a Sorc debuff and it gets insane.

Again, I like the DOT spells, and don't want their damage or the stacking damage nerfed perse, but I really think, simply from a game balance perspective, that the DOT spells should give the mobs a save against them.

HarveyMilk
08-23-2011, 12:32 AM
I used to think this. However, I haven't seen cha-dumped str-based water savants taking over the game swinging around esos's... have you? Maybe it isn't really the issue.

Shade
08-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.

Take a look at the new rune arms for example, force and light types are severely reduced compared to elemental.

Then divine punishment comes out - no save, unresistable element.. And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.

It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.. While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

And for a class with such incredible power in other areas, putting them up at those levels of DPS just isn't balanced.

I'd go furhter on DP changes myself then just a reflex save for half.. I'd drop them to 1d6 +1 per two casters levels.
3 stack would end up being 3d6+30 damage, which is still very powerful for unresistable type.. But not the insane current 3d6+60 damage it deals. (In boosted terms, that means upwards of 2000 per crit tic on debuffed foes)

The_Brave2
08-23-2011, 12:33 AM
Adding a save to the dots would have to be a will save, and the duration of the DoTs would have to be increased, loosing a tripple stack because of the mob rolling a 20 seems ridiculous.

However, my argument is that DoTs are only usefull on boss fights, and casters have no other real SP efficient option to DPS, adding a save will effectively just lower the DPS by 50% for everyone since boss's saves are high enough that it will be a near impossible feat to land a full power dot, effectively making dump stat the same as non dump stat. Granted I do not have the numbers here, but the save would most likely be a fort save, meaning very low success rate.

that being said, dump stat casters are not the problem here, dump stat casters usually multiclass and only take about 12 levels of a caster, meaning that they only get 12d6 instead of the full 20d6 a full wiz/sorc would get, not to mention the sorc elemental lines and gear that raises caster level on damage spells.

Just my take on it. personally I dont think DoT's should be changed at all.

Edit: This post is only relivent for wizard/Sorc DoT's. Divine Punishment needs to be changed so that you need to actually have wisdom.

mystafyi
08-23-2011, 12:36 AM
Horrible AI is what is screwing up things...

If someone is shooting at you with a gun, will you chase him down all the while getting shot till dead????

There is a mechanic already in the game to solve this issue. Harry occasionally summons you next to him. just apply this effect to all raid bosses... if you get agro he pulls you to him over and over till you lose agro, kill the boss or you die.

Simple easy fix to kiting/dots.

The_Brave2
08-23-2011, 12:38 AM
Horrible AI is what is screwing up things...

If someone is shooting at you with a gun, will you chase him down all the while getting shot till dead????

There is a mechanic already in the game to solve this issue. Harry occasionally summons you next to him. just apply this effect to all raid bosses... if you get agro he pulls you to him over and over till you lose agro, kill the boss or you die.

Simple easy fix to kiting/dots.


the problem isnt only with kiting with dots, its that a mele FVS can tank, out DPS the rest of the party while healing himself.

mystafyi
08-23-2011, 12:43 AM
the problem isnt only with kiting with dots, its that a mele FVS can tank, out DPS the rest of the party while healing himself.


you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??

HarveyMilk
08-23-2011, 12:46 AM
We had a robust debate about this about 4 months ago or so? Maybe longer.

Anyway, the conclusion I came to was that it isn't worth nerfing the caster divines just because melee wf FvS is so powerful. And with all the other U9 spell changes, including firewall and blade barrier duration nerfs, the dots are fine. They're the most sp efficient spells now, and it makes sense that they're single target and high damage (rather than the king of dps that firewall was for so many years).

So, no, don't add saves to the dots. Add light resistant enemies. And add enemies that are more magic resistant in general, without the blanket immunity that is mantle.

FrozenNova
08-23-2011, 12:47 AM
No save on initial cast.
Every ten seconds (cooldown), make an appropriate save or decrease the tier level by one.
Hence, if you can't consistently beat their saves, you're going to stay at tier 2 - or if you have junk dc's, tier 1.
I think something like this would be worth considering.

DC contrasts between classes will be hard to manage though. Sorcs and wizards not so much, since sorcs usually take evocation focus - but divines will be a distance behind, while the combined +4 evocation dc from wizard and 3x sorc past life would be made too overbearing.

Xenostrata
08-23-2011, 12:52 AM
you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??

I think he was referring to the wis-dumped soul survivors that can out dps everything other than an arcane by stacking DP and swinging in between casts.

I agree that DP should be given a save (or - how about this - spell pen) to prevent non-offensive-casting specced divines from using the single best offensive spell to full effect.

DrNuegebauer
08-23-2011, 01:00 AM
This is a bit overstated.

It takes a bit of time to triple stack the DoT, during which time the dps is lower. Once it's stacked, all well and good - but when you run with good melee, the sorc doesn't steal his agro with all his dots and aoes going.


People need to make better melees.

arjiwan
08-23-2011, 01:00 AM
Or, still has no Save but base the damage on your Casting Stat?

Like Wisdom for Divine Punishment. The higher the wisdom, the stronger the damage is.

Fixes the dump stat melees problem.

Jiirix
08-23-2011, 01:28 AM
DDO before the new Dots: Only 1-2 arcane and 2-3 divine per raid. "Sry, can't take you with us, we have already one arcane/two divine."
DDO after the new Dots: Even Pug Raids are getting used to take along the first 12 hits. No more endless waiting for the "must have" setup. "There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their weight."
Personally I like the new flexibility better.

That was about raids. Now to "They can solo everything with these Dots.": DDO is a group game for me, whether a class has advantages in solo play or not is important to me like PVP. The DOTs made it easier for a lot of players to get into groups and that’s a nice thing imho.

Have Fun, Jiirix.

Hikup
08-23-2011, 01:43 AM
well stated Jiirix, +1

Dandonk
08-23-2011, 01:50 AM
"There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their wight."

Ah, it's a PM then?

:)

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Jiirix
08-23-2011, 01:56 AM
Ah, it's a PM then?

:)

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

This is one of the nerf DOTs threads, I am sure you will find lots of nerf PM threads too. ;)

Dandonk
08-23-2011, 01:59 AM
This is one of the nerf DOTs threads, I am sure you will find lots of nerf PM threads too. ;)

Yes, but I was referring to the fact that the wizzie in question was "carrying his WIGHT".

Again, I apologize :)

Hephaistor
08-23-2011, 02:03 AM
Yes, but I was referring to the fact that the wizzie in question was "carrying his WIGHT".

Again, I apologize :)

Ok, now I got it... weight=Gewicht, wight=wicht. I am sure they can even carry two, if they hadn't dumped STR.

Camarde
08-23-2011, 02:08 AM
DDO before the new Dots: Only 1-2 arcane and 2-3 divine per raid. "Sry, can't take you with us, we have allready one arcarne/two divine."
DDO after the new Dots: Even Pug Raids are getting used to take along the first 12 hits. No more endless waiting for the "must have" setup. "There is a 5th wizzie applying. - Take him, they can carry their wight."
Personally I like the new flexibility better.

That was about raids. Now to "They can solo everything with these Dots.": DDO is a group game for me, whether a class has advantages in solo play or not is important to me like PVP. The DOTs made it easier for a lot of players to get into groups and thats a nice thing imho.

Have Fun, Jiirix.

+1
And stop to call for nerf.

Jiirix
08-23-2011, 02:14 AM
I tought I got reped for a clever comment, but it was for a stupid typo :) Nevermind, I am sure they can carry those too.

Do you remember how much fun it was to play evocation archmages? Then came the nerf and was anybody feeling better afterwards?

SupTyr
08-23-2011, 02:19 AM
Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.


exactly this

Dazalarian
08-23-2011, 02:34 AM
Hi,

while I'm all for the DOT (I really like the concept), I think it was porly implemented without much thought of the impact. I know a bunch of ppl are mindlessly bleating "Dont touch the DOT, its the only way my caster/fvs can do any damage and not be just a buff/heal-bot in bossfights". But if you guys would take a step back and think about the pre-DOT era and how the game is now you'll realize that alot of the high-end content that used to be somewhat of a challenge has been changed into trivial street. For example the Shroud, when was the last time anyone was in a pug shroud that didnt do a 1 rounder in part 4 since the DOT's were introduced?

I'm all for the DOT's but they need to be changed in some way cause atm they are too powerful in the way they are implemented.

Cheers,
-Daz

HarveyMilk
08-23-2011, 02:37 AM
Hi,

while I'm all for the DOT (I really like the concept), I think it was porly implemented without much thought of the impact. I know a bunch of ppl are mindlessly bleating "Dont touch the DOT, its the only way my caster/fvs can do any damage and not be just a buff/heal-bot in bossfights". But if you guys would take a step back and think about the pre-DOT era and how the game is now you'll realize that alot of the high-end content that used to be somewhat of a challenge has been changed into trivial street. For example the Shroud, when was the last time anyone was in a pug shroud that didnt do a 1 rounder in part 4 since the DOT's were introduced?

I'm all for the DOT's but they need to be changed in some way cause atm they are too powerful in the way they are implemented.

Cheers,
-Daz

Daz, in U11 they are raising the hp and power of bosses to correct this. No one likes trivial fights. But arcanes and divines do like their dots and contributing to dps (read: having more things to do than whack-a-mole healing/necro-ing)

jakeelala
08-23-2011, 02:59 AM
Calling for a Nerf to DOTS with a save is stupid. THe people doing all the damage with DOTs are NOT the people who have dumped the primary stat. DOTs will continue to do huge damage because people will still max the relevant stats, and saves will still be failed.

Get a grip.

There is nothing wrong with DOTs. There is no reason a pure, lvl 20 caster shouldn't be able to match DPS with a melee character using SP in a way that doesn't totally exhaust their SP pool. What's the point otherwise? Maybe melee should be SUPPORT, and not be kings of DPS. Maybe melee should support the ultimate DPS of godlike casters.

Shade is just mad he can't always keep aggro anymore just by swinging a sword or an axe. Sure, he has a FvS, but he NEVER plays it.

Why would you reduce DOT damage? Before, raids would have 6-8 melee, then a couple healers, and maybe a couple arcanes. Why shouldn't it be just as preferable to have 6-8 arcanes? Why does the entire game need to be balanced around 3 melees for every arcane?

Who says that's the most fun and what anyone wants besides Shade with his max DPS barbarian?

Jiirix
08-23-2011, 03:16 AM
And it is not like the DOTs do good damage without any affords made. Most DOT users invest in a pre and three other enchantment lines. Get some clickies and spell crit gear (Blue Dragon Scale, Skiver and Greenblade, all hard to get). And I may add that the mother of all D&D Dots reads like that:

Acid Arrow
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One arrow of acid
Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Razcar
08-23-2011, 03:56 AM
Before, raids would have 6-8 melee, then a couple healers, and maybe a couple arcanes. Why shouldn't it be just as preferable to have 6-8 arcanes? Why does the entire game need to be balanced around 3 melees for every arcane?

Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

Lifeblood
08-23-2011, 03:56 AM
They (and really they alone) are what is causing the "boss kiting" method to cause the concerns it is seeing from the Devs on Lammania. Blade Barriers are saved against. The Dots are not.
Please note Devs, it is not really the wings that cause this issue, it's the DOTs.


I have 3 divines 2 cleric, 1 FS, Sorc and a Wiz..(all with dots), in addition to 5 other characters i play
I pug quite often and have never seen this done..so your saying the FS dots a mob hits the wings runs for a bit, turns around and dots again....rinse repeat?..

sounds like more trouble than its worth...now a proper AI would realize I cant catch this guy..and go pound on the nearest cleric/caster







It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.


This is your worst nightmare ...a class that can out dps a barb..Why do Barbs have to be the best dps in the game?
why do you insist on labeling every class other than barbs as "support" classes?




Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.


This is an inaccurate statement ,I am sure you would never lie or exaggerate to bolster your personal opinion so should/can we chalk this one up to your lack of knowledge?.

your homework assignment: find out what mob(s) have light resistance

btw do you have dr breaking wep for most if not all mobs in the game?



I Like Dots I use dots in most quests ..are they OP? not imo ...but they must be if a Divine can threaten a barbarians epeen

If a spell is doing that much damage then perhaps the way threat/agro is applied to spells needs to be tweaked...I mean --- forbid that the monster AI actually works in a way that makes sense

as for being able to "tank" a boss...who cares if it is a divine, tukaw build or just A slab of meat with 900hp?

SirValentine
08-23-2011, 04:00 AM
The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.


Epic Crateos?

For some mobs, the Extend nerf to Blade Barrier was balanced out by the new Divine Punishment spell. Not so for this guy.

Vellrad
08-23-2011, 04:06 AM
Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

So?
If sorc applies in old setting, there is no room for wizard, and vice versa.
If barb applies in old setting, barb icon was not removed from LFM.

Gauthaag
08-23-2011, 04:09 AM
heh, i think solution is simple. Let some enemy casters use the new dot spells, even metamagic enhanced, on players.

Razcar
08-23-2011, 04:57 AM
So?
If sorc applies in old setting, there is no room for wizard, and vice versa.
If barb applies in old setting, barb icon was not removed from LFM.
Sorry, I don't understand what you missed there, unless there's a language barrier-thing going on. jakeelala complained about how often before U9 there used to be three melees to every arcance. That is logical, since of the classes offered to players, there are three times as many melees as casters. So there used to be more "slots" for melee (which could generally be any, just like the casters could be any of the two flavors) in an average pug raid or quest party.

If you want proof, log on during US peak hours (so there are many players on) and sort the Who list on classes. Count how many Page Downs you can do with the two caster classes, and then do the same with the six melee classes. And this is still the case even after U9, when casters completely lost sight of melees in their rear-view mirrors (maybe not still three times as many though).

MrTops
08-23-2011, 05:19 AM
I don't get it.

Divine punishment does 1d6 + 20 for 8 (7?) ticks, or a total of 8d6 + 160, or an average of 188 per cast.

Firewall does 2d6 + 15 for 15(?) ticks, or a total of 30d6 + 255, or an average of 360 per cast (180 if it's saved against). And firewall can affect multiple targets.

I can't see what the fuss is about.

Both Clerics and FvS get the smiting line. FvS get and extra 30% for fire, physical or untyped. Not sure if light is untyped or not (but as it deals extra damage to PM forms I imagine it is typed).

Arcanes get elemental enhancements, so no major difference.

PlaneswalkerJP
08-23-2011, 05:38 AM
The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

But immunity there is.

voodoogroves
08-23-2011, 05:54 AM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Traditionally unresistable elements like force, tends to be rare.. and very low damage. Magic missiles, chain, force misisle, etc.. All very low dmg/dps, because they are unresistable.

Take a look at the new rune arms for example, force and light types are severely reduced compared to elemental.

Then divine punishment comes out - no save, unresistable element.. And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.

It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.. While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

And for a class with such incredible power in other areas, putting them up at those levels of DPS just isn't balanced.

I'd go furhter on DP changes myself then just a reflex save for half.. I'd drop them to 1d6 +1 per two casters levels.
3 stack would end up being 3d6+30 damage, which is still very powerful for unresistable type.. But not the insane current 3d6+60 damage it deals. (In boosted terms, that means upwards of 2000 per crit tic on debuffed foes)

(1) In many ways I agree that DP has problems- but I think it's the multiplicative, stacking condemnation rather than the base spell. Radiant Servants aren't owning the world with it, after all.

(2) Craetos, just off the top of my head, is completely immune. I'm not saying there are lots, I'm saying there are some - I agree with your principle (it's not highly resisted) but you're exaggerating a bit.

(3) Incidentally, the best way to amp the damage is to put your aura on a melee type (like a barb) so that the curse fires lots. I find that if I'm in some place like VoD and we're using a barb hate tank that I'll end up getting the craziest DP numbers. Sadly, the "hate" generated by the extra damage is assigned to the FVS; I'd much rather that get assigned to the aura target.

voodoogroves
08-23-2011, 05:56 AM
as for being able to "tank" a boss...who cares if it is a divine, tukaw build or just A slab of meat with 900hp?

Duh. The divine, the tukaw and the slab of meat all care ;-)

Sarisa
08-23-2011, 06:48 AM
Crateos is immune to light.
Most Iron Golems and some Clay Golems are resistant to light. Not heavily, but enough to notice.

The power isn't exactly Divine Punishment, what makes FvS's overpowered is the Wings. Monks and Air Savants simply don't have the same amount of power with their "long jump" because they don't have all the other abilities that works so well with a FvS's wings.

Shield Mastery DoT tanking by a FvS or WF Arcane I like best in Epic Deeps, and I've seen it done successfully in eChrono (with an 18/2 sorc/monk) as well.

Kmnh
08-23-2011, 07:00 AM
I love the melees crying about casters.

We don't need to nerf dots or wings, we need harder content.

Matuse
08-23-2011, 07:05 AM
The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Patent nonsense. Try casting DP on Xy'zzy or epic Crateos. Fully immune, both of them (even after Xy'zzy is made vulnerable by her puppies, DP does absolutely nothing to her).

Clay golems take a fraction of total damage from it.

Dazalarian
08-23-2011, 07:10 AM
I love the melees crying about casters.

We don't need to nerf dots or wings, we need harder content.

This is a very fine line to walk, before DOT's were introduced groups were as many people say focused about having for example 2 arcanes, 1 bard, 2-3 divine and 6-7 melee's. By making the quests harder to balance against/for groups with 4 arcane + 4 Divine + 4 whatever you will tilt the groups AND LFM's towards more caster/divine heavy groups cause thats what you need to be able to complete the quest in a smooth way.

Then you get the opposite towards what we had post U9 where the groups consisted of roughly the amount of classes available as Razcar pointed out in his post. How is this better than we had post U9 ?

Cheers,
-Daz

gloopygloop
08-23-2011, 07:18 AM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.

Craetos

Feralthyrtiaq
08-23-2011, 07:24 AM
I like the current implementation of DoTs in the game just fine.

I like using them with my ...

Palemaster
Heal Specced Cleric
Heal Specced FVS

And REALLY <3 the DoTs when cast by other Clerics, FVS, Savants and Wizards when....

I am playing my ...

Monk
Rogue
Horc UA
WSS Monk/Ftr/Pal

But what I really DONT get is why you have formed an opinion about DoTs like this.

Idgaf if <this character or that character> can solo/shortman <Epic/Elite Raids> using <Spells and Tactics>

A gd change to DoTs as they stand will hurt newer players while the Capped/MultiTR/EpicGeared crowd would notice little difference.

Give all players a break and quit the complaining about OP this and nerf that. Your ideas and opinions about this mechanic are just for YOUR benefit and those who want the game harder because they already have it all.

SirValentine
08-23-2011, 07:24 AM
Umm.. the reason for that being the situation should be quite clear.

We have 11 classes. 6 physical combat classes. 2 caster classes. (and 3 hybrid classes, Cleric, FvS, bard). It is logical that melee classes should be three times as common.... because there's three times as many.

Nope, we have:
- 4 full caster classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 hybrid classes (Bard, Pal, Rgr)
- 4 physical combat classes (Ftr, Barb, Monk, Rog).

Or, if you want to go with DDO's own interpretation, we have
- 4 Melee classes (Ftr, Barb, Pal, Monk)
- 4 Spell classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 Specialist classes (Bard, Rog, Rgr)

Either way, there are just as many full-caster/spell classes as there are non-caster/melee classes.

(I know there's lots of divine-haters out there who want the Clr and FvS just to shut up, stay to the back and hjeal, but, sorry, Clr and FvS are just as much casting classes as Wiz and Sorc.)

But it's a silly argument anyway. There's no rule that there should be exactly as many Rogues as Wizards as Clerics as Barbarians in play on a server. There is no problem if some are more common and some are rarer.

It would be a sign of a problem if some were non-existent or some were way over-prevalent, of under- or over-power balance problems. But I haven't seen that on my sever. I see a good mix of classes. For example, since U9, I've run eVoN1 in parties with 5 melee and 1 divine, parties with 1 melee, 1 divine, and 4 arcanes, and parties with 3 melee and 3 divines. All runs were good. I prefer that to people thinking cookie-cutter parties of 4 melee, 1 divine, 1 arcane are the only way to go.

Vallin
08-23-2011, 07:42 AM
While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.




Not everyone in the game plays an epic geared multi-TR eSoS wielding FvS. If people figured out how to build some optimal character and then drag 12 of them into a raid to bulldoze over a boss then good for them. That doesn't mean that we need to change a very functional and balanced form of DPS (like Divine Punishment).

When a standard healer is healing a standard party in a raid they are also worried about keeping raging barbarians alive and don't even always have the time to hit that button every 15 seconds. It is not that easy for MOST of the players in this game.

My reference point is not from someone who can't handle end-game; I play epic content almost exclusively (outside of TRing). I just really think people need to stop calling for nerfs based on a fractional percentage of the player base. It is getting really boring.

Vallin.

pSINNa
08-23-2011, 07:53 AM
I see that a lot more players are playing divine characters these days.


I wonder why, funny that....


I used to see constant qq regarding the lack of divines available for pug quests and raids.


I don't seem to see those posts as much these days.


So.... lets nerf divines then shall we.....

Sigh, it's the short sightedness of cries for 'nerf' that gets to me sometimes.

Coit out~

Khurse
08-23-2011, 07:57 AM
Not everyone in the game plays an epic geared multi-TR eSoS wielding FvS. If people figured out how to build some optimal character and then drag 12 of them into a raid to bulldoze over a boss then good for them. That doesn't mean that we need to change a very functional and balanced form of DPS (like Divine Punishment).

When a standard healer is healing a standard party in a raid they are also worried about keeping raging barbarians alive and don't even always have the time to hit that button every 15 seconds. It is not that easy for MOST of the players in this game.





Yes, hitting the button every 10 seconds or so does require a small amount of manual dexterity,the ability to track someones damage, as well as the ability to functionally realize that you can click one button and then another in fairly rapid succession.

However I am curious to how people can actually see these DOTs, with the obvious damage they're inflicting (again -with no save needed,no SR check, no fort to reduce damage)

Giving bosses an immunity would be stupid, giving them a save for either half damage or no damage would seem to actually offer game balance.

geoffhanna
08-23-2011, 08:09 AM
However, my argument is that DoTs are only usefull on boss fights

Not at all. Commonly I drop a dot on a monster and then just ignore him and move on to the next. If I have too I might dance it. Or shield turtle. But that is it, the monster's fate is sealed, in one cast.

Compare that to FoD or PK where I have to worry about spell pen and saves and may have to Energy Drain before even casting the spell.

My take: I'm not a big nerf guy, but saves on DOTs would be a good thing.

p.s. our guild refers to that spell as Divine Penetration

alexp80
08-23-2011, 08:10 AM
/not signed

really, at all.

Dots are useful ONLY against bosses, giving them a save will change nothing for top elite ppl (the ones asking for nerf) and destroy dps capability of all others reverting the game as pre U9.

If the problem is the power of the FvS Lord of the Blades, i remember anyone that to build a really powerful one is needed a HUGE amount of gear. And a well built dps will deal more damage than him anyway with same or less gear.

Dumping wis (that is not the casting stat, btw) cuts off lot of useful spells, and it's painful tradeoff to get decent-to-good melee capabilities.

Vallin
08-23-2011, 08:18 AM
Yes, hitting the button every 10 seconds or so does require a small amount of manual dexterity,the ability to track someones damage, as well as the ability to functionally realize that you can click one button and then another in fairly rapid succession.



Khurse this is not a troll - but a serious question. Have you tried pugging a cleric into epic content lately? Perhaps your experiences are VERY different than mine, but my server is FULL of 200-300 hp clerics who have Terraza Sight and Epic cove stuff as their best gear - and they hit epic quests and DIE RAPIDLY. We bring less experienced people into our epic desert runs on a daily basis and I just do not see that Divine Punishment is OP as people say. Many players have trouble keeping themselves alive much less the party alive.

Granted, when my guild brings all their A-game characters we can roll over stuff pretty easily too - and we also run epic content with super-skilled players on our server so I understand that if ALL someone did is roll over epic content with the best players around it could get boring. I am just suggesting that this is an extremely SMALL percentage of the player base and DOES NOT merit a broad nerf.

Vallin.

pSINNa
08-23-2011, 08:41 AM
Just a followup to my slightly pert previous post on this thread, regarding the main question "to add a save or not", without referring to the reasons for the OP to ask for it in the first place (the part i don't agree with much).


I could live with a save, but i wonder what the save would be based on.


Now i have to say i went through a stage of playing divines with dumped DC stats that were very heavy on melee up until recently.


They were great fun, but ultimately a bit limited. Bumping up to a 42str on a trip/stun specced horc fighter2/18fvs i recently TR'd gave me a lot of giggles, but had also cost me a lot of raid grinding to gear up to spec, (at least as much as my monk or ranger i was playing at the time), a lot of greensteel, and serious time and effort just planning the guy out before i even dreamed of rolling him in the first place.


When the DP was released i re-specced him to take advantage of it, and as a result lost an appreciable amount of hitpoints (lost toughness enhancements), lost healing power (had to drop empower heal to take the extra feat needed to qualify for AV2), and lost melee dps (had to drop some power attack enhancements to fit it all in as well).


The result was able to some things better, but in other quests where he had shined before he was merely 'good'.


The classic WF LOB that starts with wis-2 and char-2, has to live with a 35% arcane failure on his umd'd arcane scrolls and wands because of the addy body (for which they do without a feat as well), that has to sink ap's into healers amp as well as DR enhancements to fully realize the strength of being a WF fvs, and therefore pays for the privilege. And if they've run up 3 x sorc and 3 x wiz, then 3 previous fvs lives to get a useable DC and good spell pen with a lower casting stat i think they've earned the privilege there too.


You're starting to get the idea i hope.


I've gone back to full DC attribute building on my divines, at an appreciable sacrifice in weapon dps, in HP, and in DR to enjoy full DC casting in all spells again, not just DP, because i tend to enjoy it more.


I don't envy my dump stat divine brethren becuase when you look at it closely, in DDO, it's always a tradeoff (a large reason why i still play), you just may not see it watching them in action most of the time.


One spell that can do almost as much damage as a decently built sorcs cast (at a much large mana cost once you've stacked up 3 of them, and after you've been hit enough to proc the debuff, with the constant drain of keeping up the stack) is not really a game unbalancer. It has changed the playing field a little, but maybe not for the worse in my opinion.


I won't say anything about the 'press a button every 10 seconds or so' comments becuase this has gone on a fair bit already, suffice to say, it's not really like that running a divine in a full group raid or quest, even if you are a 'lazy healbot' :P, trust me.


Soz for the long, long read all, but i can't help but respond fully to some of these cries for nerf on this one, i really don't agree with the people that call for it.

Razcar
08-23-2011, 09:08 AM
Nope, we have:
- 4 full caster classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 hybrid classes (Bard, Pal, Rgr)
- 4 physical combat classes (Ftr, Barb, Monk, Rog).

Or, if you want to go with DDO's own interpretation, we have
- 4 Melee classes (Ftr, Barb, Pal, Monk)
- 4 Spell classes (Wiz, Sorc, Clr, FvS)
- 3 Specialist classes (Bard, Rog, Rgr)

Either way, there are just as many full-caster/spell classes as there are non-caster/melee classes..
Lol, what? You're saying that Paladins and Rangers aren't melee classes? That's new. But of course, Rangers are accomplished hybrids, capabable of both spellcasting offense and crowd-control - go go go Spike Growth! :rolleyes: And Paladins... well there I have nothing. CSW against undead perhaps?

Look. Some classes overcome mob encounters through hitting stuff with a weapon (maybe a ranged one). Melees. Six of them in this game. Some of them might have a buff or two, but those are generally not for killing monsters.

Other classes defeat monsters through casting offensive spells, and seldom melee. Wait for it.... that's casters. We have two of those classes.

And then we have classes that can do both. They can crush enemies with spells, and/or with weapons. Those are the ones I call "Hybrids". Clerics, Bards and FvS's can defeat monsters with either spells or weapons. Three.

Six. Two. Three. You can mix it up a bit, of course, but that's the gist of it, and that's how the game plays. And I'm sorry if this sudden insight crushes your faith in the game knowledge of Turbine's marketing department (or whoever). Yeah, Monks are melee, but Rangers and Rogues are not. Sure. Who said something about type-casting Clerics and FvS's? :rolleyes:



But it's a silly argument anyway. There's no rule that there should be exactly as many Rogues as Wizards as Clerics as Barbarians in play on a server. There is no problem if some are more common and some are rarer.

It would be a sign of a problem if some were non-existent or some were way over-prevalent, of under- or over-power balance problems. But I haven't seen that on my sever. I see a good mix of classes.[...]
I agree it is silly with some "rule" like that. But you made it up. I didn't argue that there should be more of any type, but that it's a fact that there are more melees than casters on at any given time, and that there are more melee classes than caster classes. And that those facts had something to do with there often being more melees than casters in raids. Previously.

Chai
08-23-2011, 09:30 AM
I dont agree that saves are the answer.

I think the DOT spells effectiveness should be changed in relation to mob type. Constructs probable should take little to no light damage where undead should take purple number damage. Light should heal plant types.

There should be more conditions where light damage is sub optimal or doesnt work at all.

kitsune_ko
08-23-2011, 09:31 AM
Mmm, so my FvS is the most overpowered class in game, and need to be on the recieving end of multiple nerfs (Limiting Leap of Faith, DoT saves) to bring it back into line?

Sorry; I guess I was just too busy with healing everyone else in the rest of the party, and trying to keep my uberly-overpowered 300HP, 35AC pure-healing-based FvS alive to continue healing, to notice that I was infact dominating all game content. My apologies for being so awesomely overpowered.

I do have to admit, I find the posts with "DoTs are overpowered; ...but not MY DoTs, they are just fine, its just other classes; nerf their DoTs, but dont touch mine" slighty amusing.

WF PM also have DoT spells and excellent self-healing capabilities, just like FvS. Strange how quickly that little fact is forgotten in the cry of "Nerf them! They can deal damage AND hjealz".

You know what I use Leap of Faith for? Damage avoidance when I get trash aggro in content that can kill me in 3 hits; and to leap across a room/area to get within range of somone in the party who need healing and is currently outside my range. Thats the extent of my "exploiting" of the Leap of Faith ability.

I dont kite in end-game raids, I don't solo anything using Leap of Faith and DoTs, ever. And I cannot recall ever seeing any FvS who does this uber-powered "DoT and Dash" attack that is breaking DDO.

I use Leap of Faith to keep me, and to keep the party alive when I am healing. Nerf Leap of Faith for every FvS, and I start dying more, and the party starts dying more.

You might be limiting the "less then 1%" who built an exploiter FvS with a serious nerfage, but your also damaging the 50% of FvS players that use it in a way that benefits the party thrugh better healing.

If I lose Leap of Faith; I can still turtle up behind a shield and self-heal when I get aggro; just dont come crying to me when the heals stop coming your way, becasue I have to spend more resources babysitting myself after this idiotic idea of nerf goes though.

licho
08-23-2011, 09:34 AM
This is one of the choices that make me question whether the developers actually play in anything resembling currently accepted "end game" content, or whether they just continually run new toons through the Harbour.
(Or they all play casters)



Yes all devs playes casters and warforged, do you have any other question about reason behind game evolution?

Seriously, i support. Spells without save is generally bad idea. Even more if they are a potent one.
So i agree that DoTs (all of them) should receive save ( will for DP one, fort for arcane) if you make a save you will receive half dmg from whole stack, but if you fail save you will suffer whole stack in full power.

Of course it could be a need of adjusting boss saves, so on normal as long as i dont gimp your casting stat you are hitting in 75% cases, while hard/elite will demand more.

mute_mayhem
08-23-2011, 09:49 AM
/signed

As much as I love my WF FvS, it's ******** that he does the same (if not more) damage with DP than my evoker FvS does/did.

Please add a save for half,
oh and don't take my wings away, that will make me very sad.

Franke
08-23-2011, 10:12 AM
I can't help but wonder how much of this is "DoT envy" :D

There appears to be a constant barrage of nerf request posts,which, when the bat strikes, are quickly followed by doomsayers standing on soap boxes howling at the moon and threatening to leave the game.

Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.

Razcar
08-23-2011, 10:24 AM
I can't help but wonder how much of this is "DoT envy" :D

There appears to be a constant barrage of nerf request posts,which, when the bat strikes, are quickly followed by doomsayers standing on soap boxes howling at the moon and threatening to leave the game.

Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.
Limerick-time!

There once was a Barb on DDO
Who said: this game is too easy, fo' sho'
so they added some Fort
to give the Barb some sport
Now he's crying 'bout DoTs on skid row

:p

Iaga
08-23-2011, 10:27 AM
And angel of vengeance gets huge bonuses to boost it to not only eqaul levels of the sorcerer equivalens, but even beyond them if they can manage to stack there light vulnerability debuff enough times.Maybe it's just me, but, i don't see these mega stacks of debuffs reaching top tier very often. It also lasts for only 10 seconds - don;t the sorc debuffs last significantly longer and can be placed far more reliably?

While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.I used to look forward to reading your posts when i first started playing Shade - but as others have pointed out, comments like that crop up so often that i can see why so many feel you are overly biased.

Or, still has no Save but base the damage on your Casting Stat?

Like Wisdom for Divine Punishment. The higher the wisdom, the stronger the damage is.

Fixes the dump stat melees problem. I like that idea. It was the caster souls who needed the damage buff, not the melees.

oldkraft
08-23-2011, 10:30 AM
if OP (Opening Poster) wct 1st occ. of sub. to afnos .....
then I might care about his post.

phum
08-23-2011, 10:33 AM
(1) In many ways I agree that DP has problems- but I think it's the multiplicative, stacking condemnation rather than the base spell. Radiant Servants aren't owning the world with it, after all.

Agree completely. But I do also agree with Shade, that since it's very rarely resisted, it should be less powerful than the arcane ones.

grodon9999
08-23-2011, 10:37 AM
Are DoT's powerful? Yes they are . . .but when the raid boss changes happen, and they get increased levels of fortification,more hit points and metamagics . . . well maybe then the power of DoT's will wane significantly.


you seem to have cause and effect mixed up.

And the OP's main toon is a caster.

Khurse
08-23-2011, 01:17 PM
if OP (Opening Poster) wct 1st occ. of sub. to afnos .....
then I might care about his post.

I am so curious as to what this means - am I missing an easy puzzle here?

geoffhanna
08-23-2011, 01:22 PM
If I can see you
I can kill you with one spell
damage over time

SirValentine
08-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Lol, what? You're saying that Paladins and Rangers aren't melee classes?


Nope, saying they both cast spells and engage in physical combat. I was going by your categories of
"caster", "physical combat", and "hybrid". Rangers and Paladins are both (usually) focused on physical combat, but both can cast spells, too.



Look. Some classes overcome mob encounters through hitting stuff with a weapon (maybe a ranged one). Melees. Six of them in this game. Some of them might have a buff or two, but those are generally not for killing monsters.

Other classes defeat monsters through casting offensive spells, and seldom melee. Wait for it.... that's casters. We have two of those classes.

And then we have classes that can do both. They can crush enemies with spells, and/or with weapons. Those are the ones I call "Hybrids". Clerics, Bards and FvS's can defeat monsters with either spells or weapons. Three.


I'm not sure how you get this. There are some arcane caster builds that engage in melee and use little direct offensive spells. There are lots of divine casters who never melee but obliterate mobs with spells. Any way you slice it, Clerics and FvS are just as much "casters" as Wiz and Sorc.

Since you hadn't spelled it out in your earlier post, I didn't get that you meant "casts spells to kill mobs" as opposed to "casts spells (including defensive and buff spells)" when you said "caster".

As for Bards, since now you're only defining casting in terms of killing mobs, how are they hybrid? I'm not sure I've ever seen a whole lot of sonic nuking going on to kill mobs from Bards. Do they even get any insta-kill spells? Do Bards solo Epic-scroll-farm via their offensive spells? (Maybe they can, I don't know. Never played a Bard.)



And I'm sorry if this sudden insight crushes your faith in the game knowledge of Turbine's marketing department (or whoever). Yeah, Monks are melee, but Rangers and Rogues are not. Sure.


I don't agree with Turbine's classification. I merely listed it for yet another comparison.



it's a fact that there are more melees than casters on at any given time, and that there are more melee classes than caster classes. And that those facts had something to do with there often being more melees than casters in raids. Previously.


The reason that there was only 1 (or sometimes 2) arcane casters in a raid was because many raid leaders would only admit that many. Without viable (SP-efficient) DPS options, more arcanes than needed for CC, buffing, or special duties (kiting, e.g.) equated to less DPS. Now that DoT spells give the arcane (and divine!) casters a useful DPS option, there is no reason to exclude them, which I think is a good thing.

Razcar
08-23-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm not sure how you get this. There are some arcane caster builds that engage in melee and use little direct offensive spells. Sure, that's why I wrote that "you can mix it up a bit".


There are lots of divine casters who never melee but obliterate mobs with spells. Any way you slice it, Clerics and FvS are just as much "casters" as Wiz and Sorc.Yes Divines can cast well. But casters can do more dps and better instakills with spells than a FvS/Clerics can ever hope to do that way. And the Divine classes generally melee much, much better. That's what makes Divines "hybrids" in my book, a type of class between the casters and the melee, that has a slightly weaker version of both available compared to the ones specialized in one area. But hybrid classes can of course chose to concentrate on one area, such as a high DC Spellsinger bard or a War Chanter that CC's about as well as a drunk dwarf with a toothache.

Regardless, a Divine didn't normally compete for the same "spot" in a raid pug as an Arcane did - raid leaders didn't decline an Arcane by saying he already had two Clerics in his group.



As for Bards, since now you're only defining casting in terms of killing mobs, how are they hybrid? I'm not sure I've ever seen a whole lot of sonic nuking going on to kill mobs from Bards. Do they even get any insta-kill spells? Do Bards solo Epic-scroll-farm via their offensive spells? (Maybe they can, I don't know. Never played a Bard.)
Mainly I placed them there because they have a 3/4 BAB and offensive spells. Granted, the Bard have very meagre offensive spell selection in DDO, but their CC spells are OK, and that is also a valid way to disable opponents.



The reason that there was only 1 (or sometimes 2) arcane casters in a raid was because many raid leaders would only admit that many. Without viable (SP-efficient) DPS options, more arcanes than needed for CC, buffing, or special duties (kiting, e.g.) equated to less DPS. Now that DoT spells give the arcane (and divine!) casters a useful DPS option, there is no reason to exclude them, which I think is a good thing.Didn't say it wasn't. Only that since fewer Arcanes are usually online compared to the plethora of Melee variants, it is logical that parties would generally consist of more Melees. This was of course augmented by anxious and needlessly picky group leaders, and cemented with the omnipresent Shroud where it was believed part 1 would have gone too slow with many casters, or something to that effect.

Shade
08-23-2011, 05:30 PM
This is your worst nightmare ...a class that can out dps a barb..Why do Barbs have to be the best dps in the game?
why do you insist on labeling every class other than barbs as "support" classes?


Because that's how the game is balanced.

Barbarians do the most DPS (in certain cases).. But not for free. It has a cost, and a major one:
1. Cannot use any clickies, cannot cast spells, cannot use scrolls, cannot even drink a huge amount of potions except guild ones.
2. Deal massive self damage.
3. Very limited role, have no magic, have no buffs, very poor crowd control ability even compared to other melee like monks..
4. Relies on very limited abilitis (rage, uncanny dodge) which absolutely can never be regenerated except via shrining. A caster can run out of SP, then spend a second drinking a pot. There is no restore rages potion.
5. Zero ranged ability. I fight, i get hit back.. A favored soul fights with dots, they can kite and take zero damage in many cases.
6. A barbarian without support classes aiding him is very poor class unable to do many things in the game without extreme effort. A favored soul is ultra effective regardless of support, and can solo nearly everything..

Thats why.

Would you rather they added some self damage to the dots? Made them only function in melee range (and stopped if you move away) Disable all other spell casting while the dots are active? Removed SP potions from the game so your ability to DPS was finite like a barbarians?

It's not balanced for 1 class to be the best at everything.

Barbarians suck at a lot of things to get the DPS they have.
Favored Souls have almost no weaknesses. They are amazing tanks, amazing dps, awesome crowd control, awesome movement speed, top saves, no self damage..

Unbalanced games aren't fun.

And yes I hate nerfs as much as the next guy and i've already been of the attitude "Buff the monsters, Dont nerf us"

But the buff option in this case is extremely improbable and likely not nearly as popular either:
Add massive light, cold and lightning resistance to everything in the game.

"Re: Crateos:
He has zero light resistance like everything in the game. He is construct - golem type however, and per pnp they are meant to be 100% immune to magic. The fact you can even damage him with magic at all breaks the spirit of DnD. What they did with him and all other golems is give them a 50% magic absorption shield.. Thus why you see yellow numbers, even tho he has zero light resistance.

The_Brave2
08-23-2011, 05:45 PM
Because that's how the game is balanced.

Barbarians do the most DPS (in certain cases).. But not for free. It has a cost, and a major one:

2. Deal massive self damage.

The self damage is small when you have a healer and you have 1k+ hp.

4. Relies on very limited abilitis (rage, uncanny dodge) which absolutely can never be regenerated except via shrining. A caster can run out of SP, then spend a second drinking a pot. There is no restore rages potion.

If you are running out of rages in basically any quests, you are doing something wrong, you cant place that as a limitation for barbarian.


6. A barbarian without support classes aiding him is very poor class unable to do many things in the game without extreme effort. A favored soul is ultra easy to play and solo nearly everything..

And remind me, how much TP did you have to spend to get your barbarian? or how much favor you had to get? Flimsy argument on my part, but it is part of it. FVS's are very good at EVERYTHING currently and needs to change a littlebit.


Would you rather they added some self damage to the dots? Made them only function in melee range (and stopped if you move away) Disable all other spell casting while the dots are active? Removed SP potions from the game so your ability to DPS was finite like a barbarians?

A Caster is not a Barbarian.

It's not balanced for 1 class to be the best at everything.

I agree here, but you do have to remember that a FVS can tank and hold aggro with mele and dots, but he will have a very difficult time keeping himself up without a healer covering his but. not to mention the SP drain of dots + healing yourself. Theorticly you can be healing a tank and auto attacking boss quite easily, but even on my WF FVS you will see me pick up a scroll and start throwing heals for a main tank. not to mention that even a very well geared FVS will have a difficult time tanking horoth on elite, so Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin are still on top there.

Barbarians suck at a lot of things to get the DPS they have.
Favored Souls have almost no weaknesses. They are amazing tanks, amazing dps, awesome crowd control, awesome movement speed, top saves, no self damage..

Cant argue here, but they are not the BEST tanks, they are not the BEST single target non Boss DPS, they are not the BEST crowd control, they dont have the BEST saves, and self damage is mutually exclusive for barbarian.

Unbalanced games aren't fun.

Neither are completly balanced games. atleast imo. :D


Add massive light, cold and lightning resistance to everything in the game.

DoT's only affect bosses, so adding resistance to trash mobs would only hurt Sorcs and drive all the damage dealing sorcs out of epics again. I believe that most people would be ok with higher boss resists for cold/elec/light, while possibly making the Sorc debuff reduce this resistance by a % of the resist, rather than a % higher damage on him.

"Re: Crateos:
He has zero light resistance like everything in the game. He is construct - golem type however, and per pnp they are meant to be 100% immune to magic. The fact you can even damage him with magic at all breaks the spirit of DnD. What they did with him and all other golems is give them a 50% magic absorption shield.. Thus why you see yellow numbers, even tho he has zero light resistance.

Just my opinion on it, for the most part I do agree with you suprisingly, but Some of your arguments are not correct imo.

Lifeblood
08-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Because that's how the game is balanced.

Barbarians do the most DPS (in certain cases).. But not for free. It has a cost, and a major one:
1. Cannot use any clickies, cannot cast spells, cannot use scrolls, cannot even drink a huge amount of potions except guild ones.
2. Deal massive self damage.
3. Very limited role, have no magic, have no buffs, very poor crowd control ability even compared to other melee like monks..
4. Relies on very limited abilitis (rage, uncanny dodge) which absolutely can never be regenerated except via shrining. A caster can run out of SP, then spend a second drinking a pot. There is no restore rages potion.
5. Zero ranged ability. I fight, i get hit back.. A favored soul fights with dots, they can kite and take zero damage in many cases.
6. A barbarian without support classes aiding him is very poor class unable to do many things in the game without extreme effort. A favored soul is ultra effective regardless of support, and can solo nearly everything..

Thats why.

Would you rather they added some self damage to the dots? Made them only function in melee range (and stopped if you move away) Disable all other spell casting while the dots are active? Removed SP potions from the game so your ability to DPS was finite like a barbarians?

It's not balanced for 1 class to be the best at everything.

Barbarians suck at a lot of things to get the DPS they have.
Favored Souls have almost no weaknesses. They are amazing tanks, amazing dps, awesome crowd control, awesome movement speed, top saves, no self damage..

Unbalanced games aren't fun.

And yes I hate nerfs as much as the next guy and i've already been of the attitude "Buff the monsters, Dont nerf us"

But the buff option in this case is extremely improbable and likely not nearly as popular either:
Add massive light, cold and lightning resistance to everything in the game.

"Re: Crateos:
He has zero light resistance like everything in the game. He is construct - golem type however, and per pnp they are meant to be 100% immune to magic. The fact you can even damage him with magic at all breaks the spirit of DnD. What they did with him and all other golems is give them a 50% magic absorption shield.. Thus why you see yellow numbers, even tho he has zero light resistance.
------------------------------------

So which is it Barbs suck at being able to solo and fend for themselves

Or barbs are overpowered and need to be smacked with the nurf hammer?


Solo'd Sins of Attrition Elite on my pure lvl20 28-point build Barbarian. Brute force style, killed everything along the way, even some optional side mobs to get 1 extra chest.

I'm not really much of a solo player, but allot of people tell me Barbarians can't solo or that I need 5 healers to do anything.. Figured I'd prove that wrong by completing one of the most difficult quess to heal through in the game, without a healer.

Can solo nearly every quest on a maxxed out Barbarian really, one of the most powerful solo classes at the endgame. All it takes is a few potions.

Screenshots:
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7797/sinselite.jpg

Completion time. (http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5391/screenshot03007.jpg)
Run #2 Flawless Victory (http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5979/screenshot03027.jpg)

Was no easy task I failed a few attempts mostly due to not remembering the trap locations and random patterns of the quest. On the last run everything went quite well.. Tell I ran out of hard drive space recording it, which causes the lag to drop to 1FPS and become unplayable.. That got me killed early on (at a point I had already past in previous attempts) in the third run and was tired of restarting so I used my festival egg siberys cake and continued, so 1 death. I might re-do it with no deaths sometime.

See how it happened here in high-def 1080p video:
Sins Elite Part1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l388L9FMomg&fmt=37)
Sins Elite Part2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjVX2qXo5Y8&fmt=37)
Sins Elite Part3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0rO2cEs-E&fmt=37)
Sins Elite Part4 (boss-fight from run #2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nutELeWyo9g&fmt=37)

Unfortunately when I ran out of HD space the first time I deleted some stuff and continued and it was fine. But then ran out a 2nd time before the boss fight and no matter how much I deleted it wouldn't record again without setting my FPS to 1.. So have to defrag I guess.. Too bad the boss-fight was pretty insane. I purposely took the badge for the hardest possible boss (imo) and did not hand it in to make it even harder.

Edit: Did a second run, much faster and flawless victory, and also managed to record the exciting boss-fight without getting smashed into the ground due to record lag I get in his room this time :D

bigolbear
08-23-2011, 06:04 PM
There only good in raids, lvl 20ish content or epics on red/purple named enemies. thats it.

Sure thats what a lot of people care about but personly as they have severly reduced a caster ability to usefuly debuff those enemies i think a caster needs an option there, an option that doesnt involve swiggin half a dosen pots.

ok so keep the damage under that of a well specced mele - if it isnt, im all for tweeking it.(but im fairly surfe it is)

shade had a point about light damage being an issue due to its highly unresistable nature, and further points were made about the aura boosting it into the stratosphere. Divine punishment could probly use a cut down or more likely AOV is too good.

Im actualy not in favour of a saving throw on these spells, most dots dont have one - its their nature, and their use is limited to boss encounters where extreme saves are apparent.

Ardenburl
08-23-2011, 06:54 PM
First to the post about

"For example the Shroud, when was the last time anyone was in a pug shroud that didnt do a 1 rounder in part 4 since the DOT's were introduced?"

Come on people give it up comparing game balance to how fast Shrouds are completed its silly, its a level 16 quest that pre-mod 9 when the cap was 16 got done by groups of peeps 13-16, without epic gear, dots or pre's. If your group of level 20's can't one round it, you should be ashamed.

Second, game balance isn't always about mechanics, though some times it is, often is about making every class (insert player as well) feel that their class/race/build is contribuiting a some what equal effort to the adventure. When one class/build is 2-3 times more effective or efficiant at all things, it makes the people who play other classes/builds fustrated because they have either a emotional or time investment into their charcater.

Yes the mutiple tr'd epicly geared beast should be better than the first life non epic geared char of the same class, however one class shouldn't have a ability/feat/spell that on a first life makes them 2-3x more effective than 80% of the other classes by default.

PurdueDave
08-23-2011, 07:15 PM
If you're charging more for something then it needs to be better.

ThePrincipal
08-23-2011, 07:23 PM
It starts to bring them not to levels where they can contribute something, but levels where they nearly match the top DPS melee clases that have to sacrifice a ton to get there.. While the fvs needs only a simple potentcy item and to press 1 button every 15 seconds.

Not true. The base damage on DP is very low. It takes a caster specc'd divine with potency, maximize, empower, quicken, and debuffs to hit reasonable lvls. And still, it hits for 150sih per tick. If youre healing or melee spec'd youre looking at 80 per tick. It's hardly anything. The only people that want to nerf this are nerdraging from dying to DP in the lobster.

Milfeulle
08-23-2011, 07:28 PM
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9228/sinelite.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/sinelite.jpg/)


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4932/sin4min.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/sin4min.jpg/)

Casters are way overpowered even without dots, At lv 19, my first try on Sin elite was 10 min, could narrow it down to 7 min for repeating effort, and my normal runs are only 4 min, every trash goes down in a single AoE spell.
With 600+ hp at lv20, I always end up tanking the Conjoined Abishai in Chrono with dots.
I would say dots should be nerfed.

Tinco
08-23-2011, 07:32 PM
If you're charging more for something then it needs to be better.

No, it needs to be different and interesting enough to warrant the price. It's a misconception that FvS should be more powerful just because they have to be unlocked.

Ravoc-DDO
08-23-2011, 07:55 PM
This is a bit overstated.

It takes a bit of time to triple stack the DoT, during which time the dps is lower. Once it's stacked, all well and good - but when you run with good melee, the sorc doesn't steal his agro with all his dots and aoes going.


People need to make better melees.

That becomes increasingly harder with each passing update as long as Turbine keeps boosting casters & nerfing melee.

gloopygloop
08-23-2011, 07:58 PM
Not true. The base damage on DP is very low. It takes a caster specc'd divine with potency, maximize, empower, quicken, and debuffs to hit reasonable lvls. And still, it hits for 150sih per tick. If youre healing or melee spec'd youre looking at 80 per tick. It's hardly anything. The only people that want to nerf this are nerdraging from dying to DP in the lobster.

I very much like the DP damage that I'm getting on my Melee/Healing FvS.

I have Maximise, Empower Healing, Quicken, Toughness, Extend, Power Attack, Improved Critical: Slashing. I took Extend back when it was actually worth taking and I'll probably swap it out for Empower eventually.

Once I take the 21 seconds to get my triple stack running on Harry or any other big pile of HP (even against Shroud portals since I run ahead of the group), I do
(3d6+60) * (2 for maximise) * (1.75 for Superior Brilliance V clicky) * (1.4 for Smiting IV)
= 70.5*2*1.75*1.4 = 345.45 damage per tick = 172 damage per second, even if you ignore crits.
That's the average damage that I do with 1 feat, 10 AP and 0 gear slots used to pump up DP.
Also, that doesn't count Empower since I don't have it yet. And it doesn't count any of the PrE debuffs.

Not bad for a Melee/Healer FvS, I'd say. I enjoy doing that level of damage against bosses even with my fully geared out Wisdom of 16 (including Ship buffs, +6 Wis item and ToD ring).


Edit: I will say that I don't even bother throwing DP against anything other than Red/Purple bosses because it's just not worth the effort if you're not going to triple stack it.

Vhlad
08-23-2011, 08:02 PM
The TR bonuses for casters are substantially more powerful than the TR bonuses for melee.

Shade has little incentive to mass TR. +1 damage is a small % addition to damage. Same kind of thing with +10 hp, +1 to-hit, or +1 sneak attack damage.

+2 spell pen and +1 spell DC is a much higher % addition to spell pen and DC. And the +2 stat from completionist bonus provides a marginal benefit to melee (+1 to hit, +1 damage), vs +1 to DCs. The DCs win. Melee will hit on a 2 or above and +1 damage is tiny compared to their total damage end-game with epics, PrEs, buffs, etc. But +1 DC can mean a wail or BB hits 50% more often (i.e. if a high roll is required).

If epic mobs are balanced for a 40 DC +d20 to hit 50% of the time, then a completionist evoker with stacked past lives + arcane initiate will be 25% more powerful from the 5 extra DCs. Whereas a completionist melee with stacked past lives might deal +4 damage (+7 with sneak attacks), which is maybe 3% more powerful than a melee without all the past lives.

The same kind of thing applies to caster PrEs that increase DCs, compared to melee PrEs that increase DPS. Giving mobs a save against dots will just make things harder for less geared, non-TR'd casters - it won't be a real barrier for the players who currently pwn everything.

Don't try to balance around people who grind like mad. Accept that they win the game, or nerf TR for casters.

Elaril
08-23-2011, 08:11 PM
The funny thing to me about this is that people think that it will be a viable (i.e. time efficient, our most important commodity) strategy to fvs kite/dot raid/epic bosses. How much time to people have to play really? And how much time do people want to spend battling a boss.

A save for the dots defeats the purpose of their implementation, it is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

I can't believe how quick people are to judge/take up the nerf mantle after just a couple of runs through the new raid which, by all appearances, isn't a finished product.

My suggestion to the developers would be to leave our characters and their class features alone and, as has been suggested in more than one place, address their imbalances on a mob/quest specific basis.

Seamonkeysix
08-23-2011, 08:12 PM
Yep. Don't want them sissy divine casters getting all kinds of stuff that distracts them from nanny-botting. You don't want them there divine casters having that crazy Divine Punishment spell. It's just downright embarrassin' to have them getting themselves some kills and havin' fun in a party! They are supposed to be babysitting my big ol' barbarian.

Nerf them dern divine casters back to their proper place. Back o' the party, hjealin' my half-orc. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


Really? Really? REALLY?

Divine casters have a grand total of 1 DoT spell they can use. Most of the time, they are busy keeping the party up and maybe they get to toss in a DP from time to time while working on the party. Unless we are still talking about the Shroud...a level 16 raid that people are actually complaining is easy on level 20 toons on normal.

The answer isn't "nerf DoTs" or "nerf Divine Punishment"....the answer is challenge yourself and do content that is level appropriate.

Alexandryte
08-23-2011, 08:50 PM
Quick rhetorical questions:

Which does more damage: a melee without self buffs (a barb without rages) or a caster without a blue bar?

Which is more likely to survive: a melee with their inherently higher base hit die or a caster who is without sp?

Which has an opportunity cost associated with each attack directly: a melee attack, or a magical attack?

What is the availability of SP pots versus health restoring items in-game?

Can a barbarian continue to attack without the almighty rage versus a caster without their almighty SP?

---------------------------------

Quick trip down memory lane: How many casters were allowed in a raid prior to the dots before automatically assuming the raid would be a fail? Conversely how many melee were allowed into a raid?



MORAL of the story: Balance is hard. There is no one stop shop for fixing things on the players end. Saves and basing things off of stats would destroy any foothold casters have and would decimate new players who are not as well geared.

IMHO, the shift should be upon future boss creatures, not players. Some bosses should be more vulnerable or resistant to certain things. They should also periodically shift those strengths/weaknesses to promote a strategy more than "smack it with what you have mindlessly until it stops moving."

-----------------------------------------------

Nefariosis
08-23-2011, 09:10 PM
I agree the DOT spells are overpowered and I would like to propose a solution that is a bit different from the norm. Either give more enemies light/cold/electricity resistance(not my favorite option) since right now only arcane oozes and various golems can resist all 3, Give caster mobs means of dispelling a DOT so in places where a boss is accompanied by other mobs have them occasionally attempt to break the DOT, lower the base damage of the DOT spells, and my final idea is to give melees a feat/enhancement/something that can be the equivalent like idk Severing Slice: Cut at an enemies weak points causing them to bleed out and take damage over time while their wounds heal, slicing again before previous cut has worn off will reopen the wound only slightly worse.

Know they aren't amazing ideas but I just wanted to think outside the box ^^

Seamonkeysix
08-23-2011, 09:26 PM
I agree the DOT spells are overpowered and I would like to propose a solution that is a bit different from the norm. Either give more enemies light/cold/electricity resistance(not my favorite option) since right now only arcane oozes and various golems can resist all 3, Give caster mobs means of dispelling a DOT so in places where a boss is accompanied by other mobs have them occasionally attempt to break the DOT, lower the base damage of the DOT spells, and my final idea is to give melees a feat/enhancement/something that can be the equivalent like idk Severing Slice: Cut at an enemies weak points causing them to bleed out and take damage over time while their wounds heal, slicing again before previous cut has worn off will reopen the wound only slightly worse.

Know they aren't amazing ideas but I just wanted to think outside the box ^^

The DoT spells are overpowered compared to what??? The non-DoT spells that casters used to have?

I am sure this is no surprise to anybody, but the giant kill counts casters have aren't because of DoT spells, they are insta-kill spells. Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, Phantasmal Killer.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want the nerf-brigade to start a new thread asking to nerf insta-kill. My point is that the only thing DoTs has done is take 15 minute epic end-boss fights and make them 7 minute Epic end-boss fights. In the process, they apparently let the sails out of some DPS types and loosed the nerf-brigade! :D

MrTops
08-23-2011, 10:41 PM
OK.


In Shades DPS Challenge 2, Shade's Greataxer character is listed as having killed eSobrien in 2 minutes 40 seconds which equates to 431 dps.
-----------------------
69000 / 160


Divine Punishment is 188 damage per cast.
-----------------------
(3.5 + 20) * 8 ticks.

Maximize, Empowered, Superior Brilliance and Smiting up that to 885 per cast.
-----------------------
(1.0 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.75) * (1.0 + 0.4) * 188

Assuming a maxed out Prayer of Smiting and Incredible Smiting, 9% of the damage is multiplied by 2.25 so the average per cast becomes 951 damage per cast.
-----------------------
(855 * 0.09 * 2.25) + (855 * 0.91)

Add a 5 stack Shield of Condemnation and the damage is doubled to 1902 per cast.

Now, that damage is delivered over 16 seconds so the DPS of a single maxed out cast of Divine Punishment is 1902 / 16 = 118 dps.

Assuming you can keep Divine Punishment completely stacked then the limit is the cool down of 10 seconds. So stacked Divine Punishment has a BEST dps of 1902 / 10 = 190 dps.


190 dps is 44% of Shade's barbarians dps.

How does, in the best of possible circumstances, doing 44% of a melee characters dps unbalance the game?


Also, it would take 36 casts at 1900 damage a cast to do 69000 damage. At 65 spell points for a Maximized, Empowered Divine Punishment that would cost 2340 spell points. The same output costs the melee character nothing.

BlargneyTheSecond
08-23-2011, 10:59 PM
Nice analysis, MrTops. Clear, concise, to the point.

If I absolutely *had* to choose between diddling with leap of faith even a tiny bit or obliterating divine punishment, I would choose the latter in an instant. Just please don't mess up my wings.

Tossing a will save for half damage on DP would be acceptable, if and only if there are no changes to wings.

Xaxx
08-23-2011, 11:14 PM
Wow another nerf the dots post... what a surprise.

How about we add a stamina bar since i'm tired of meles being able to swing as long as they want when casters have a mana bar. We can add stamina pots, they wont be sold in shops, they'll be drops from chests and from ends of quests... and oh yeah only drop one at a time. We'll put em in the store to at say 50 tp a shot.... yep great idea isnt it? Oh yes and every move you use uses stam, every swing, every smite, every thing you do uses stam. Hows that work op?

So they hit caster spells, make casters from being more aoe spec to single target burst and dot damage. You wish to effectivly castrate the set of spells that does that?

How about for pale masters or general spec wizards who dont have a full line dedicated like a savant or the 20% savant cap stone boost... yep nice for them isnt it.

Ok guys you know what I run epics with casters and meles... but all these bs posts lately and especially over on lama where a few players keep moaning that the end game isnt balanced around their epic geared super toon need to can it and go play another game for a while or something. Sorry guys the games NEVER gonna be built for you (and this is the reason I play other games besides ddo from time to time).

Adding a save at all kills the dots since its a mana commitment just to ramp it up to teir 3 which is what hurts... 10 second cool down... 1 save and your screwed. Oh yes dots go from the best spell to not used at all... congrats op casters 1 dps that actually puts them on par with mele FINALLY would be reduced to bupkis and Im pretty sure you and your ilk would be the first ones on the boards ****ing and moaning about that to.

If your character is to powerful... heres an idea... PLAY A NEW ONE....or something radial... PLAY ANOTHER GAME... or how about... go outside... yes i know its so strange that you shouldnt spend the next 1000 hours on ddo trying to power up the character that your moaning about is already so powerful that he can do every epic solo without ever using a mana pot or healing himself. Congrats... make a new character.

Rdonaccount
08-23-2011, 11:36 PM
No.

The only mobs worth using DoTs on are boss types, especially purple names. Most purple names have such ridiculously high saves that not even full DC spec casters could beat it most of them on more than 5% of the time. This wouldn't differentiate between stat dumped and stat pumped characters at all; everyone would have their damage equally reduced.

If you want to reduce the damage the stacks do, just reduce the damage. Don't hide behind saves.

If you want to differentiate between melee spec and caster spec damage, just change the damage calculations to include the casting stat modifier rather than just caster level.

If you want to make it so there is a difference between an ungeared 20 and an epically geared caster, change the way the stacks work. Make a raid/epic item that allows the spell to be stacked. Say, an item that is about as easy to acquire as a greensteel weapon that allows the spells to be stacked twice. And and epic version that allows the third stack. The caster would still get 1-2 decent DoTs to boost their boss dps over pre u9 casters, and the dps casters can put out would increase with gear similarly to melees' dps.

But just putting saves on the spells is just a sloppy change imp.

Shade
08-23-2011, 11:54 PM
OK.


In Shades DPS Challenge 2, Shade's Greataxer character is listed as having killed eSobrien in 2 minutes 40 seconds which equates to 431 dps.
-----------------------
69000 / 160


Divine Punishment is 188 damage per cast.
-----------------------
(3.5 + 20) * 8 ticks.

Maximize, Empowered, Superior Brilliance and Smiting up that to 885 per cast.
-----------------------
(1.0 + 1.0 + 0.5 + 0.75) * (1.0 + 0.4) * 188

Assuming a maxed out Prayer of Smiting and Incredible Smiting, 9% of the damage is multiplied by 2.25 so the average per cast becomes 951 damage per cast.
-----------------------
(188 * 0.09 * 2.25) + (855 * 0.91)

Add a 5 stack Shield of Condemnation and the damage is doubled to 1902 per cast.

Now, that damage is delivered over 16 seconds so the DPS of a single maxed out cast of Divine Punishment is 1902 / 16 = 118 dps.

Assuming you can keep Divine Punishment completely stacked then the limit is the cool down of 10 seconds. So stacked Divine Punishment has a BEST dps of 1902 / 10 = 190 dps.


190 dps is 44% of Shade's barbarians dps.

How does, in the best of possible circumstances, doing 44% of a melee characters dps unbalance the game?


Also, it would take 36 casts at 1900 damage a cast to do 69000 damage. At 65 spell points for a Maximized, Empowered Divine Punishment that would cost 2340 spell points. The same output costs the melee character nothing.

A) You math is ultra wrong and purposely biased - it supports your position and purposely leaves out factors to make your arguement look good, while including every factor on the other end.
Your math is purposely missing common geared favored souls have, yet you compared it to an absolutely 100% maxxed out barbarian.

B) Hugest one: DoTs are absolute (and unresistable). They are easy to maintain. Melee DPS is ULTRA VARIABLE and can be reduced by thousands of factors, very rarely will you maintain your absolute maximum as you might in the DPS challenge where you get as many attempts as you want.

Lord of Blades is a great example:
DoTs can be applied 100% of the time - even when he leaves the arena, he happens to be gone exactly just under the duration of the dot, so it keeps ticking. Melee is only possible for limited bursts.

And I could post some screenshots of my favored soul doing 2000 damage light tics to proove your math is wrong, but its so incredibly wrong that I don't care too. All i can say is, let someone else more qualfied do it, or work harder and be more careful in your calculations next time. Here is a hint of some major factors ignored tho: Lore set. PrE.

MrTops
08-24-2011, 12:55 AM
A) You math is ultra wrong and purposely biased - it supports your position and purposely leaves out factors to make your arguement look good, while including every factor on the other end.
Your math is purposely missing common geared favored souls have, yet you compared it to an absolutely 100% maxxed out barbarian.


There was one error:

I listed the crit calculation as:
----------------------------------
(188 * 0.09 * 2.25) + (855 * 0.91)

when it should have been:
----------------------------------
(855 * 0.09 * 2.25) + (855 * 0.91)

Though the result of 951 I posted is correct.

Other than that I'm pretty sure it is correct as far as it goes. If it is wrong please point out the errors.



And I could post some screenshots of my favored soul doing 2000 damage light tics to proove your math is wrong, but its so incredibly wrong that I don't care too. All i can say is, let someone else more qualfied do it, or work harder and be more careful in your calculations next time. Here is a hint of some major factors ignored tho: Lore set. PrE.

I haven't included Greater Arcane Lore (+9% crit range and +0.25 multiplier or +0.5 multiplier if you have the Archmage set bonus).

If I include that the average damage per cast becomes 1124.325 (or doubled with 5 shields of condemnation for 2248).
-------------------------------
(855 * 0.18 * 2.75) + (855 * 0.82)

Over 10 seconds that 225 dps.

As for 2000 point ticks:

23.5 - Average Base Damage
3.25 - Maximized, Empowered, Radiance
1.4 - Smiting
2.75 - Critical Multiplier (Prayer + Archmage)
3 - stacks
2 - 5 stack condemnation
--------------------------------
1764

I believe that Radiance stacks additively with metamagics, and they stack multiplicatively with Smiting.

If I'm wrong and Radiance stacks multiplicatively with metamagics then its:

23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
1.75 - Radiance
1.4 - Smiting
2.75 - Critical Multiplier (Prayer + Archmage)
3 - stacks
2 - 5 stack condemnation
--------------------------------
2374

So, yes, 2000 point ticks might be possible and are spectacular but the AVERAGE dps is still less than half a geared melee and costs spell points.

And I'd be happy if anyone can point out flaws in the calculations.

jakeelala
08-24-2011, 01:11 AM
A) You math is ultra wrong and purposely biased - it supports your position and purposely leaves out factors to make your arguement look good, while including every factor on the other end.
Your math is purposely missing common geared favored souls have, yet you compared it to an absolutely 100% maxxed out barbarian.

B) Hugest one: DoTs are absolute (and unresistable). They are easy to maintain. Melee DPS is ULTRA VARIABLE and can be reduced by thousands of factors, very rarely will you maintain your absolute maximum as you might in the DPS challenge where you get as many attempts as you want.

Lord of Blades is a great example:
DoTs can be applied 100% of the time - even when he leaves the arena, he happens to be gone exactly just under the duration of the dot, so it keeps ticking. Melee is only possible for limited bursts.

And I could post some screenshots of my favored soul doing 2000 damage light tics to proove your math is wrong, but its so incredibly wrong that I don't care too. All i can say is, let someone else more qualfied do it, or work harder and be more careful in your calculations next time. Here is a hint of some major factors ignored tho: Lore set. PrE.

The math is not ultra wrong. All calculations of DPS are subjective and can never take into account situational realities.

I think what's really at play here is that barbarians quite literally useless in a raid without someone healing them. With FVS having something to do other than heal the Barbarian sponge, Shade's superiority is in trouble. A FvS can do all of that damage, even it's half of the barbs, COMEPLETELY by themself. They don't need a bard, they don't need healing from someone else. In lot of ways, Barbs are Glass Cannons. Even with a 1000 HP, they won't last long in a raid without healing.

Why dont we instead just up the survivability of Melee's a whole lot so we don't have to babysit them on our caster classes and we can have the same fun nuking. Some of us enjoy nuking better than melee'ing but not especially supporting the barbarian.

MrTops
08-24-2011, 01:15 AM
Hugest one: DoTs are absolute (and unresistable). They are easy to maintain. Melee DPS is ULTRA VARIABLE and can be reduced by thousands of factors, very rarely will you maintain your absolute maximum as you might in the the DPS challenge


Notice that in my calculations I do assume the best possible situation for spell damage; Superior Brilliance (I incorrectly called it Radiance) from a timed clicky, 5 shields of condemnation and casting excatly when the spell comes of cool down.

In practice a FvS is unlikely to max the stack out all the time as they will also be focused on keeping the barbarian alive :)

And, in fact, keeping the barbarian with 460 dps alive is a better use of spell points than only spamming DP.

In raids I'll cast one DP between two mass heals so I get one off about every 13 - 14 seconds (2 x 6 seconds cool down plus casting animation time).

Vallin
08-24-2011, 07:35 AM
In raids I'll cast one DP between two mass heals so I get one off about every 13 - 14 seconds (2 x 6 seconds cool down plus casting animation time).

Hm, how about divines start telling the melees to bring silver flame pots and run out of the fight if they get low because you are spending all your sp on DoT? That will help people understand pretty quickly how ridiculous it is to even think that all divine casters are doing is spamming DoTs with the blue bar.

I appreciate your calculations on eSobrien but the other reality that needs to be considered is that DoTs are rarely maximized in such a way - only in a flawless run (and we all know how often those happen) are you even able to keep DoTs going.

I think it is ridiculous for people to start talking about nerfs like this just because people bring multiple FvS into a fight and in this very restricted and unusual configuration there are some advantages that are obtained. The reality is that there really are not many groups running around that have multiple FvS - so again - let's just start nerfing the whole game based on the fact that at any given time a small % of players will advantage odd mechanics that favor odd party configurations.

I believe that if that fractional percentage of people want to steamroll content by loading a party full of DoT divines or pale masters then let them go have their fun. They will find out quickly that the game is over because there is nothing left to do. That will leave the game to the VAST majority of everyone else who does not try to beat the game by advantaging these odd mechanics.

Vallin.

Hephaistor
08-24-2011, 07:48 AM
The arcarne DOTs can be resisted, I see no problem here. There are high damage elemetal spells that have a save for half damage and do instant damage like polar ray > this mob won't harm your party. And there are the DOT spells with now save but therefore lower damage and they need some time to take the mobs down > Mob can fight the party longer. Most parties don't wont to wait and therefore the DOTs are mostly used when a bigger mob is fought over a longer time. This are the fights casters were only buffbots in the past. Now they can add some nice contribution to the killing to, and that's fine and fun imho.

The divine DOT is seldom resisted, I can see why some call divine punishment imbalanced. It is a verry good spell for sure. But I don't think it is a gamebreaker. I like the option to do damage without kiting with my caster cleric and use it now and then on bigger mobs. I am still healing most of the time and think it the spell makes it a bit easier and more fun to play one of the "healer" classes. Most players appreciate the healing, but now they don't want the divines to do some damage? If there will be a nerf to DP I want the my old Bladebarrier and the old Implosion Cooldown back.

voodoogroves
08-24-2011, 07:58 AM
The arcarne DOTs can be resisted, I see no problem here. There are high damage elemetal spells that have a save for half damage and do instant damage like polar ray > this mob won't harm your party. And there are the DOT spells with now save but therefore lower damage and they need some time to take the mobs down > Mob can fight the party longer. Most parties don't wont to wait and therefore the DOTs are mostly used when a bigger mob is fought over a longer time. This are the fights casters were only buffbots in the past. Now they can add some nice contribution to the killing to, and that's fine and fun imho.

The divine DOT is seldom resisted, I can see why some call divine punishment imbalanced. It is a verry good spell for sure. But I don't think it is a gamebreaker. I like the option to do damage without kiting with my caster cleric and use it now and then on bigger mobs. I am still healing most of the time and think it the spell makes it a bit easier and more fun to play one of the "healer" classes. Most players appreciate the healing, but now they don't want the divines to do some damage? If there will be a nerf to DP I want the my old Bladebarrier and the old Implosion Cooldown back.

They definitely can be resisted (and should be a bit more so) and some are flat immune.

The issue w/ DP is the AIs of the bosses, their attack sequences and how the condemnation stacks to amp damage.

I love the aura of condemnation, but it's too easy to take a non-overpowered spell and then boost it through the roof by letting a moron AI hit you (or your champion) a dozen times ... and then since that is a debuff on them everyone else's DP also amps ... blah blah blah.

MrTops
08-24-2011, 08:31 AM
I appreciate your calculations on eSobrien but the other reality that needs to be considered is that DoTs are rarely maximized in such a way - only in a flawless run (and we all know how often those happen) are you even able to keep DoTs going.


That was kind of my point: that even in the extreme example that everything is perfect DP still lags behind geared melee in the damage game.

licho
08-24-2011, 11:56 AM
The arcarne DOTs can be resisted, I see no problem here. There are high damage elemetal spells that have a save for half damage and do instant damage like polar ray > this mob won't harm your party. And there are the DOT spells with now save but therefore lower damage and they need some time to take the mobs down > Mob can fight the party longer. Most parties don't wont to wait and therefore the DOTs are mostly used when a bigger mob is fought over a longer time. This are the fights casters were only buffbots in the past. Now they can add some nice contribution to the killing to, and that's fine and fun imho.

The divine DOT is seldom resisted, I can see why some call divine punishment imbalanced. It is a verry good spell for sure. But I don't think it is a gamebreaker. I like the option to do damage without kiting with my caster cleric and use it now and then on bigger mobs. I am still healing most of the time and think it the spell makes it a bit easier and more fun to play one of the "healer" classes. Most players appreciate the healing, but now they don't want the divines to do some damage? If there will be a nerf to DP I want the my old Bladebarrier and the old Implosion Cooldown back.

Rays - the no save for rays spells in dnd is not how it should work, in pnp the rays get touch attack roll, which is easier to hit, but still there is a roll. And it will be cool if they introduce something like that into dnd, so arcanes stop be so sad.

Polar ray wc dot. 3xpolar ray has base of 450dmg, 3xdot is 1200dmg in 48sec period. Its not that dots are slighly better than polar ray. THey are almost 3 times as good.

That said, its not like the spell is entirly bad and imbalanced.
The insane thing is that there is no defense against it, no save roll, no matter if you have dump your casting stat.
Add the save for half, and it will be more sane, still good for boss fight.

Xenostrata
08-24-2011, 12:10 PM
Stop me if you've heard this one before, but I'm too lazy to read this whole thing to find if this has already been suggested.

Have a save when the spell is cast to determine if the stack increases. For instance, if it is saved against the first time, nothing happens. If I fail with a DoT already on the mob, it retains its tier but doesn't progress upwards (ie, the spells timer is refreshed so that you don't run out but your tier is not advanced). This should make wis-dumped DP stackers less OP, as well as significantly increase the SP cost for starting the DoT while reducing initial DPS.

A rule could also be implemented that after 2-3 consecutive saves the spell loses a tier.

EDIT: Some mechanic would have to be added to make sure that max stat sorcs would still be able to save most of the time. Due to the nature of DCs, making too much DPS depend on saves would make a wizard have the best DPS and CC and instakill, when at least one of those should be reserved for the spontaneous casting cousins.

Seamonkeysix
08-24-2011, 02:29 PM
It's ironic how I never see anybody in a party complaining about how the DoT spells are helping the group. It is more common that somebody who can't do something sees somebody that can and cries, "That's not fair! My (insert class) can't do that!"
Many times it is after somebody posts an accomplishment and other players realize the tactic they used. Then the green jealousy monster hits them, they fail their save and scream for a nerf.

I don't believe people realize what they are asking for, especially when you are calling for nerfs on casters and healers. Reading this makes me think that people who post in the forums don't even play the game.

There is a relatively small pool of people that play competent healers and casters. Most quests go much more smoothly with competent casters and healers. There was a time in DDO history when nobody wanted to play a caster or a healer. You were pigeonholed into a buff bot or a nanny bot. The developers changed the playing field a bit, and now the buff bots and nanny bots can also contribute to party DPS.


Now, when those competent casters and healers do something cool, instead of players going, "Wow! I wonder what that build looks like" or "what enhancements did you take and sacrifice to get (insert bad azz ability)", they say "Not Fair! My toon can't do that!!!"

So when/if you demand and petition to take away something that makes a caster or healer fun to play, please don't come back to the forums in 6 months and start the old threads of "ZOMG it took 2 hours to get a healer for TOD" or "Where did all the casters go?".

Remember...you asked for it.

:mad:

Khurse
08-24-2011, 03:36 PM
So when/if you demand and petition to take away something that makes a caster or healer fun to play, please don't come back to the forums in 6 months and start the old threads of "ZOMG it took 2 hours to get a healer for TOD" or "Where did all the casters go?".

Remember...you asked for it.

:mad:


I know I asked for it. I have casters and healers,(and am starting another FVS) so mine will be right there.
I also have the ability to decide that if I can chain cast a spell doing as much damage as the DOTS do, from out of melee range (nice miss on that small point in the mathhammer system btw- Shade needs to stand beside the thing he's hitting, I can stand across the room) that it's -imho- a little over the top.

Again though don't fear, Turbine was concerned enough about the DOT kiting that they decided to nerf the wings of the FVS to compensate.

gloopygloop
08-24-2011, 06:45 PM
I also have the ability to decide that if I can chain cast a spell doing as much damage as the DOTS do, from out of melee range (nice miss on that small point in the mathhammer system btw- Shade needs to stand beside the thing he's hitting, I can stand across the room) that it's -imho- a little over the top.

I tried Shade's DPS challenge against the starting Giant in eClaw and it took me over 4 minutes to kill him. I was using both the Divine Punishment DoT and my MinII Greatsword.

Why did it take so long to kill him? Knockdown.

If anything knocks you down for 6 seconds or longer, you'll lose your triple stack and your DPS from the DP goes straight into the toilet.


This isn't a problem for melee tanks because they have enough Strength to not be knocked down. I don't know too many Clerics or FvS that have enough Strength to consistantly avoid knockdown.

Khurse, have you tried to kill Sobrien and actively checked to see how long it took? What was your resulting DPS against him and what did you do to avoid the knockdowns?

MrTops
08-24-2011, 07:43 PM
Polar ray wc dot. 3xpolar ray has base of 450dmg, 3xdot is 1200dmg in 48sec period. Its not that dots are slighly better than polar ray. THey are almost 3 times as good.



To simplify I'm just going to look at base damage, no metamagics or other enhancements.

Polar Ray has average base of 100 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d3 + 3 per level = (2 + 3) * 20 = 100 on average

Cool down is six seconds so base dps is 100/6 or 16.6 dps


Divine Punishment has and average base of 188 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d6 + 1 per level = (3.5 + 20) * 8 ticks = 188

That's delivered over 16 seconds so a single cast is 188/16 or 11.75 dps.

To look at how Divine Punishment stacks I've represented the 'ticks' as numbers down the page, each column is one cast. Since the cooldown is 10 seconds subsequent casts begin at the 10 second tick.

0
2
4
6
8
10__0
12__2
14__4
16__6
____8
____10__0
____12__2
____14__4
____16__6
________8
________10
________12
________14
________16

Looking at this it's obvious that it's not possible for a single caster to stack the spell 3 times. In fact, since the spell does no damage on the zero tick and there's a gap at the 8 tick the best you can get is an effective stacking of 6 out of 8 ticks, or 1.75.

That means the best base dps a single caster can do (188 * 1.75)/16 = 20.5 dps.

I'm curious now why the spell description says may be stacked 3 times when it is obviously not possible for a single caster to do that?

Or am I missing something fundamental about the cooldown?

simo0208
08-24-2011, 07:48 PM
Didn't read all the posts, so this may have been said.

Why would you use a DoT on a mob. By the time it's been hit with the second or third DoT, it's dead. DoT spells are ONLY good for bosses. That's it. And considering bosses have loads of immunities already, DoT spells are among the best (and only) things casters can consistently throw at them.

/not signed

simo0208
08-24-2011, 07:49 PM
To simplify I'm just going to look at base damage, no metamagics or other enhancements.

Polar Ray has average base of 100 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d3 + 3 per level = (2 + 3) * 20 = 100 on average

Cool down is six seconds so base dps is 100/6 or 16.6 dps


Divine Punishment has and average base of 188 per cast, assuming caster level 20.
------------------------
1d6 + 1 per level = (3.5 + 20) * 8 ticks = 188

That's delivered over 16 seconds so a single cast is 188/16 or 11.75 dps.

To look at how Divine Punishment stacks I've represented the 'ticks' as numbers down the page, each column is one cast. Since the cooldown is 10 seconds subsequent casts begin at the 10 second tick.

0
2
4
6
8
10__0
12__2
14__4
16__6
____8
____10__0
____12__2
____14__4
____16__6
________8
________10
________12
________14
________16

Looking at this it's obvious that it's not possible for a single caster to stack the spell 3 times. In fact, since the spell does no damage on the zero tick and there's a gap at the 8 tick the best you can get is an effective stacking of 6 out of 8 ticks, or 1.75.

That means the best base dps a single caster can do (188 * 1.75)/16 = 20.5 dps.

I'm curious now why the spell description says may be stacked 3 times when it is obviously not possible for a single caster to do that?

Or am I missing something fundamental about the cooldown?

I don't think the stacking bit has a timer on it. I've hit things with triple DP on my cleric by myself.

MrTops
08-24-2011, 07:50 PM
nice miss on that small point in the mathhammer system btw- Shade needs to stand beside the thing he's hitting, I can stand across the room) that it's -imho- a little over the top

I didn't do anything other take a look at the claim that Divine Punishment provided dumpstat casters with DPS equivalent to melees.

I don't think I made any other statements or recommendations.

And in the game I cast and heal on my FvS while attacking with melee weapons :)

Emili
08-24-2011, 08:05 PM
you are talking about a fully epic geared out esos weilding WF FVS..... so the devs must balance the game against the upper 1% of the population??
You do not need be extremeley decked out on a FvS (sure it helps more)... but just geared to par with the rest of the group. i.e. if I geared my FvS to what my barbarian, fighter or pally or even ranger (Einin) I'd have no issue tanking Sulu or possibly Horoth if I set my mind on adjusting it out with the FvS... as it stands I melee them on the back with the FvS... so is no doubt in my mind if I geared the thing up it would more than suffice.




------------------------------------

So which is it Barbs suck at being able to solo and fend for themselves

Or barbs are overpowered and need to be smacked with the nurf hammer?

Soling Elite Sins on a barb, fighter or any real heavy melee is in itself more about the player and not the class... it's all about knowing how to play that character well. I've solo'd sins elite on every class all it comes down to is knowing the quest and knowing the character's limits. Is a fact though that what we can do alone with such melee classes we can do at least twice as well with arcane/divine bars...

... And there I was on Abby (Abaigeal 18/2 Bard/fighter) my elven warchanter in elite sins (yes, you read that right an elven bard can solo sins, Even my spell singer has done so), Anyway Draz and Hordo send tell - hey Missy may we join you? Well sure... but I had already picked up the book cleared past the first trap, not much further to the ladder... they join and course I the spawn in front slipped my mind ;) but I DD back... we make our way back a little past the point I was prior to where they joined when I overestimated my scope when we pulled a little more than we could chew off given our current situation... *fail* ...

Two days later I took her back in on elite and got it done... Yugos my incentive. ;) Really the difference here is in knowing how to manage yourself, a little luck in dice and when you do not have to second guess other's reactions the situation is controlable.

Hey would you like to solo edq1 alone? A good PM or AoV is much easier to manage for the task than any typical melee built thingy...


http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/9228/sinelite.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/sinelite.jpg/)


http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4932/sin4min.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/sin4min.jpg/)

Casters are way overpowered even without dots, At lv 19, my first try on Sin elite was 10 min, could narrow it down to 7 min for repeating effort, and my normal runs are only 4 min, every trash goes down in a single AoE spell.
With 600+ hp at lv20, I always end up tanking the Conjoined Abishai in Chrono with dots.
I would say dots should be nerfed.

... because efficiency is entirely in blue bar realms, versitility, utility, range, distance and aoe... zip past and clear that which follows behind along with the new you've just agro'd. Control them and KILL them in masses.

Spells always had that power ... even before u9 or dots I've seen them rip down Harry, sulu and other bosses in mostly blue-bar groups.

People assume shroud's ole typical 1 or 2 caster pick by raid leaders to be of some significance... well in a way it was, You see portals of part one the melee were reliable in eliminating even with some gimps tossed in... today can't say much to that.

A good caster shows up well, a bad caster shows up very bad, on the flip side a good melee show proven adequate ... yes adequate is all and a bad melee really does not poise so much an issue at all as long as one other melee exist in the group, your reaction is "meh".

A bad caster is actually more of a liability than a bad melee is in that sense. That is a fact. If you have a bad melee you just think oh well - let him die, what he contributed a little but is not up to snuff... chances are though with a bad caster though, you looked at that blue bar and saw that as scope of promise, a party resource, and quite possibly a big difference in taxing the other blue bars of the group. A bad caster can be far more dangerous too... like the bowstring happy ranger. ;)

MrTops
08-24-2011, 08:35 PM
I don't think the stacking bit has a timer on it. I've hit things with triple DP on my cleric by myself.

Hmmmm.....

I'll head out to the portal in Aussircaex's Valley tonight and see if I can get 3 to stack on the portal, but I can't see how that's possible with a 10 second cool down and a 16 second duration.

I'm at work so can't do anything for another 8 hours or so.

Chette
08-24-2011, 08:53 PM
/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

gloopygloop
08-24-2011, 08:54 PM
Looking at this it's obvious that it's not possible for a single caster to stack the spell 3 times.


I'm curious now why the spell description says may be stacked 3 times when it is obviously not possible for a single caster to do that?

Or am I missing something fundamental about the cooldown?

You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.

Emili
08-24-2011, 09:23 PM
You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.
Yes that's how it works... I triple stack all the time on bosses when they're firm.

Seamonkeysix
08-24-2011, 09:30 PM
/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

Wow. Somebody with a melee focused bard that doesn't get DoTs /signing this. Weird. :rolleyes:

MrTops
08-24-2011, 09:34 PM
You are missing something fundamental about the cooldown. When you first cast the spell, you get a single effect for the regular damage. The spell lasts for 16 seconds and does 0 damage on "tick 0". The spell's cooldown is 10 seconds, so you want to cast again after that 10 seconds and before the 16 seconds expire. If you do that, you get a new 16 seconds of effect for your double stack.

When you get the third casting 21 or 22 seconds after the first, you will then have a triple stack of DP.

In other words, the first and second casting get to continue as long as you keep re-casting before the 16 seconds expire.

Try casting it while you are looking at your target's list of buffs/debuffs/effects. You'll see the DP icon and then you'll see "DP 2" and "DP 3" replace that original DP icon as you double and triple stack it.

So it works like the Awaken Elemental Weakness curse then?

That does make some difference. It effectively cuts the SP per damage cost by 1/3 if you keep the three spells stacked.

It also simplifies dps calculations since you can just work with damage per tick for three stacked casts and forget everything else.

23.5 - Average Base Damage
3.25 - Maximized, Empowered, Radiance
1.4 - Smiting
3 - stacks
2 - 5 stack condemnation
---------------------------------
641 not critical tick

Add in critical damage (2.75 critical multiplier with Prayer and Archmage set)
----------------------------------
(641 * 0.82) + (641 * 0.18 * 2.75) = 843 average per tick

Divide by 2 seconds per tick and you get 421 dps.

So, in that case you do get melee equivalent dps assuming you have 5 stacking condemnations. If you have no condemnations stacked, likely if you're kiting solo you get a more lackluster 210 dps :)

Thanks for pointing this out gloopygloop.

In no way did I intend to try and spread any misinformation. I'll head out to the portal in the valley tonight to confirm this for myself.

justagame
08-24-2011, 09:41 PM
/signed

It's not as much an issue with the arcane ones, as probably 99% of arcane casters are DC casters, particularly with the U9 changes to insta kill spells. It is a huge issue though with divine punishment. Divines are probably about 50:50 DC casters vs melee divines. Maybe 60:40, I dunno, you gotta factor lame healbots into that somewhere. But the point is that there are a large fraction of divines with 8 base wisdom. Yet they get the exact same damage from divine punishment as a a caster with 40+ wisdom. Throw that on top of the fantstic melee damage they can do, and it's just overpowering compared to the abilities of a DC divine caster.

Given that it's mainly used on bosses, today's endgame bosses have saves so high that even your standard max-wisdom divine caster is still going to have his damage cut in half. The melees will still do just as much damage, only everybody's is going get cut in half.

Take a 'normal' wisdom-focused caster FVS:

wis = 18 + 5 levels + 1 human + 2 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional = 38. That's a solid score.

With heighten, a spell focus feat, and let's say a napkin or other +1 item:
DC = 10 + 9 (heighten) + 14 (wisdom) + 1 feat + 1 item = 35.

What endgame boss is going to have a problem with that save? Not many. So, in the name of reigning in that ESOS-wielding WF melee FVS, you're gonna nerf the spell for virtually everybody.

Seamonkeysix
08-24-2011, 09:51 PM
I agreed with you so much I posted twice! :D

Seamonkeysix
08-24-2011, 09:55 PM
Given that it's mainly used on bosses, today's endgame bosses have saves so high that even your standard max-wisdom divine caster is still going to have his damage cut in half. The melees will still do just as much damage, only everybody's is going get cut in half.

Take a 'normal' wisdom-focused caster FVS:

wis = 18 + 5 levels + 1 human + 2 enh + 3 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional = 38. That's a solid score.

With heighten, a spell focus feat, and let's say a napkin or other +1 item:
DC = 10 + 9 (heighten) + 14 (wisdom) + 1 feat + 1 item = 35.

What endgame boss is going to have a problem with that save? Not many. So, in the name of reigning in that ESOS-wielding WF melee FVS, you're gonna nerf the spell for virtually everybody.

Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.

Khurse
08-25-2011, 12:38 AM
Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.


????

Again, I (the OP) asked for saves vs DOTS across the board, no where did I single out FVS or say that only DP should be nerfed. They should all have a save vs them for half damage.

The argument "no one will play healers" is odd,considering that there were healers around for a few years before the DOTS were even released.

Xhine
08-25-2011, 01:26 AM
Have you played with dots? Guess what, they're fun! Many people enjoy the game feel while using dots, and prefer the no save. I have played the new content and the game mechanics pretty much take away the advantages of
Dots.
**They're still necessary but really only till the end of the two new raids.

Please keep dots as they are and update mobs as you seem to be doing.

If you are to add a save to any the dots divine or arcane please come out with the Polar ray version for all the elements + light, also 9th level elemental spells please.

Possible 9th level spells

Earthquake

16 sec duration, ticks off every 2 sec

would work with the acid/force line of damage, do bludgeon damage over time, you could make this a divine spell as well as an arcane. even if you got the save no dr agains bludgeon

Magma eruption

duration instant
fire line of spell enhancements
doesnt count as fire due to the bludgeon of molten rock *untyped damage



Wild lightning strike
duration instant
storm line of spell enhancements
be untyped also due to the massive amount of damage cause by the implosion of the vacuum caused by a true lightning strike (thus causing the sound of thunder)



Geyser
Duration instant
water line of enhancements
Same deal is above, based on the force and bludgeon damage involved.



A light version for divines of a 9th level spell would be awesome also

thanks for the hard work on helping return sorcs to the boss killing beasts they should be, not fail class that is way less dps than an envoker archmage.

dozkal-mo
08-25-2011, 01:35 AM
What so many people in this forum fail to realize is their own proficiency with their own toons. Many of us know the class(es) inside and out and can level to 20 with our eyes closed. In the hands of a skilled player, any toon will be OP......especially if you're comparing it to everything else.

Take the same things, put them in the hands of a noob, and nothing is OP. They don't have a veteran's knowledge and experience.

So many people in this forum need to stop complaining about game balance when they are *only* considering their own skill sets and those of other veteran players. Stop basing game design and balance on a specific population of the game; you're missing the point completely.

Razcar
08-25-2011, 02:50 AM
Exactly. FvS already are splitting their wisdom and charisma scores. Basically what is being suggested is "stick it to the FvS's with divine punishment". I have a WF FvS. I like the Divine Punishment spell, but the truth is, that in Epics and even in ToD, I spend most of my time worrying about keeping everyone else alive. I get a little bit of button smashing fun in by tossing a Divine Punishment from time to time, as my archon goes "pew pew". At the end of most quests, I am near the bottom in kills.

I also have a drow Pale Master...who can instakill anything in the game that isn't red or purple named. I am nearly always at the top of kills. DoTs are not the reason.

It's been said again and again, DoTs are a way to mitigate the insane amount of HP that endgame bosses have. Asking to nerf them is just a way of causing your healers to drink more pots to keep you alive in longer end game fights.

Like I said before, what that gets you is less people that want to play healers...why? Because healing gets expensive and no fun to waste resources.
You are seeing this the wrong way. It's not that the melee's that are upset about DoT's (I have two FvS's and a lot of melees but I don't care either way) don't want the Divines to do extra damage to the bosses while they heal the party.

Instead I think some are worried that they will become entirely superfluous - just unneeded. You don't need a big ESoS-weilding half-orc barbarian when you have a big ESoS-weilding WF FvS (or a sheild-blocking caster) that does the same job, only better. While needing much less cuddling. And then you can fill out the rest of the party with casters/divines. Why not? They are self-sufficient, self-buffing and self-healing. And do loads of damage.

With the power and ease of DoT's the "old balance" of DDO (tank, healer, dps - which always was weaker in DDO than other MMO's but still there) gets disturbed and you now have less use for "needy" low-defense classes like Barbs and most Fighters. I don't think anyone is being negative towards Divines and Arcanes finishing the raid quicker and easier, but that they don't need anyone else anymore. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad - I like playing divines/casters, and never cared much for classes that need constant diaper changes - but it sure changes the game.

aerendhil
08-25-2011, 04:42 AM
Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

Dazalarian
08-25-2011, 05:08 AM
Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

why not just 1d6 + WIS modifier.

As someone calculated above a decent Divine build has around 38 Wis, with shipbuffs 40, with yugopots 42 and with uber gear you can push it into 44. calculated on 40 Wis you have the exact same damagenumbers as you have today.

That would "solve" the melee vs healer/evoker discussion plus it would benefit the high DC casters.

It wont change the fact that the DOT's are still overpowered.

Someone mentioned that almost all characters are OP in the hands of an expert and I can agree to that to some extent. However, when the OP-factor comes from clicking 1 spell every 10 seconds (2 if yer an arcane) I mean, how skilled do you have to be able to do that? If someone with mad twitch FPS skills can figure out a 7 spell combo which he has to time down to the second while kiting a boss and avoiding trash while he sails to the uber-solo-completion of <whatever raid>, Fine, I bow too you Sir and your supreme skills.

Cheers,
-Daz

MrTops
08-25-2011, 05:15 AM
Change Divine Punisment from "1d6 +1 per caster level" to "1d6 + WIS modifier + 1 per 2 caster level"

Brilliant!

I do like that, or a variation thereof, since it rewards maxing out your casting stat and makes a gimped DoT a matter of build choice.

I'm not sure if I think Divine Punishment is overpowered but I'd think if it is changed then this is a good direction (but apply it to arcane DoTs as well).

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 07:08 AM
????

Again, I (the OP) asked for saves vs DOTS across the board, no where did I single out FVS or say that only DP should be nerfed. They should all have a save vs them for half damage.

The argument "no one will play healers" is odd,considering that there were healers around for a few years before the DOTS were even released.

I rarely get into debates on the forums. When I do, it usually is about nerfs. When I do decide that something is worth taking a firm stand on, I always check to see who I am debating.

In your case, you have primarily played 2 DPS toons and 1 Wizard in the recent past in your quest log. Wizards have a ton of other ways to impact party DPS, not the least of which I have mentioned several times: instakill spells like Powerword Kill, Finger of Death, ect...

Divines, and specifically FvS, typically do not have a wide variety of damaging spells in their inventories. They are busy keeping the party alive. Having a decent DPS spell option is pretty much new for DDO.

As for my position about whether or not there will be healers around and how long....You don't have to tell me. You can take a look at my join date and figure out that I have been around since this all began. And whether you remember it or not, getting a healer has always been a challenge for the group.

Only recently have I seen an influx of people willing to make healers. Some of them are good, some not so much...but the point is that part of the reason it isn't dreadful to try to find a healer for VoD, ToD, Epics, and so forth is because the developers have taken steps to not relagate them to nanny bots that can only heal and their damage is a joke.

In the case of Divine Punishment, most of the arguments have centered around "Give it a save based on the DCs of the caster". What I am saying is that in the case of favored souls, you don't see a ton of FvS running around with 40 wisdom. This suggestion coming from a min/max caster is even more laughable. My 50 intelligence wizard doesn't mind so much if you put a save on dots. My 26 charisma FvS does.

If DoTs are totally causing a balance issue in the game, I am not seeing it...and I play nearly every day. I have DoTs on my wizard and on my FvS. I think they are a very good addition to DDO, and I don't see that they play a huge role, other than decreasing the time on end-boss fights. Nerfing them is not needed. Asking for a save based on DC is really only punishing a small percentage of the "caster" player base.

Vellrad
08-25-2011, 07:54 AM
Give mobs dots, not saves.
Wanna get hit by triple stack of biting cold, electric surge and DP at once?
Ouch, could be fun!

Dazalarian
08-25-2011, 08:06 AM
If DoTs are totally causing a balance issue in the game, I am not seeing it...and I play nearly every day. I have DoTs on my wizard and on my FvS. I think they are a very good addition to DDO, and I don't see that they play a huge role, other than decreasing the time on end-boss fights. Nerfing them is not needed. Asking for a save based on DC is really only punishing a small percentage of the "caster" player base.

Look at the bigger picture. Let me pull just one example. Before U9 when doing a typical pug shroud part 4 killing Arry took anything from 2-4 rounds depending on the group, I'd say 3 was the average. I saw several groups actually fail here in the earlier days, at least that fight was somewhat hard and occasionally it even failed. Post U9 I have yet to be in a pug shroud that didnt finish part 4 in a 1 rounder.

There are plenty of other quests/raids where you see the same thing going on, content that used to be at least somewhat of a challenge have now become trivial and need less and less player coordination to complete.

Not to mention that now since the DOT's were implemented divine and arcane casters can now even easier solo content that could only be done by the best of the best and barely even so. There are quests/raids today which were practically impossible to solo before that can be done now without having to max out your divine/arcane.

Is this a bad thing? yes I think it is.

Cheers,
-Daz

Razcar
08-25-2011, 08:55 AM
I like aerendhil http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4020118#post4020118) 's suggestion above, base the damage on casting stat instead of adding a save that the bosses will always make anyway. Smart and simple.



In the case of Divine Punishment, most of the arguments have centered around "Give it a save based on the DCs of the caster". What I am saying is that in the case of favored souls, you don't see a ton of FvS running around with 40 wisdom. This suggestion coming from a min/max caster is even more laughable. My 50 intelligence wizard doesn't mind so much if you put a save on dots. My 26 charisma FvS does.
Checking your FvS Nazarene in your sig, you have dumped your casting stat and gone for Strength instead. I think it makes perfect sense that you shouldn't make as much DoT damage as a high-Wis FvS or Cleric that didn't do the same - since you have chosen to boost you greatsword damage instead. Aerendhil's suggestion would achive this without a save.

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 10:01 AM
I like aerendhil http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4020118#post4020118) 's suggestion above, base the damage on casting stat instead of adding a save that the bosses will always make anyway. Smart and simple.


Checking your FvS Nazarene in your sig, you have dumped your casting stat and gone for Strength instead. I think it makes perfect sense that you shouldn't make as much DoT damage as a high-Wis FvS or Cleric that didn't do the same - since you have chosen to boost you greatsword damage instead. Aerendhil's suggestion would achive this without a save.

I would be okay with that suggestion, depending on the implementation. In the case of FvS, I think it should be Caster level + Charisma, however.

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 10:03 AM
Look at the bigger picture. Let me pull just one example. Before U9 when doing a typical pug shroud part 4 killing Arry took anything from 2-4 rounds depending on the group, I'd say 3 was the average. I saw several groups actually fail here in the earlier days, at least that fight was somewhat hard and occasionally it even failed. Post U9 I have yet to be in a pug shroud that didnt finish part 4 in a 1 rounder.

There are plenty of other quests/raids where you see the same thing going on, content that used to be at least somewhat of a challenge have now become trivial and need less and less player coordination to complete.

Not to mention that now since the DOT's were implemented divine and arcane casters can now even easier solo content that could only be done by the best of the best and barely even so. There are quests/raids today which were practically impossible to solo before that can be done now without having to max out your divine/arcane.

Is this a bad thing? yes I think it is.

Cheers,
-Daz

You are talking about The Shroud. A level 16 raid. Saying that a level 16 raid end boss should be challenging for a party of level 20s doesn't hold water. Give me another example.

I will give you one, EChrono. Even with a decent party, it isn't unusual for my FvS with 2500+ SP to have to drink a pot or 2 or 3, depending on the group. Comparing a level 16 raid to a level 25 Epic raid isn't even a comparison.

As for soloing, I was soloing Reaver's Fate well before DoTs. Easily. I can do that because I can self-heal, not because I have DoTs. Self healing toons are going to be able to solo stuff. I farm epic scroll on my PM. Why? Because he can instakill stuff. I have seen the "High Necro DC not fair" posts, too. It's always in reference to people being able to solo-farm scrolls. Again, I don't hear people in Epic Devil Assault complaining when I mass dance, hold, and wail things. It always comes back to , "I can't do that...neither should you".

If you want a toon that can solo a lot of content, roll a self-healing toon...don't scream for nerfs on them. When those toons you are complaining about soloing stuff are less effective, you will feel it when they group with you. Guaranteed.

EvilI
08-25-2011, 10:19 AM
I would be okay with that suggestion, depending on the implementation. In the case of FvS, I think it should be Caster level + Charisma, however.

It's a very good suggestion, but I dont think as proposed it will change the overall power of DP all that much. I wouldnt mind at all if there was a fort- or will-save for half damage. Heck, even a dex-save would be OK becuase the mobs that you have time to get a stack on don't have evasion - evasion (ie: trash) mobs are dead long before you can stack them with DP, which says something about how overpowered it is.

Dazalarian
08-25-2011, 10:25 AM
You are talking about The Shroud. A level 16 raid. Saying that a level 16 raid end boss should be challenging for a party of level 20s doesn't hold water. Give me another example.

Still, its not about it beeing a challenge, its about how MUCH easier it has become.



I will give you one, EChrono. Even with a decent party, it isn't unusual for my FvS with 2500+ SP to have to drink a pot or 2 or 3, depending on the group. Comparing a level 16 raid to a level 25 Epic raid isn't even a comparison.


Just this last week I read a post in the accomplishment forum where someone had solo'ed eChrono with a FvS. you think that would have been possible at all before the DOT's were introduced? Do you think thats how its supposed to be? As much as the dev's are freaking out right now and try to change the wing "buff" for FvS to correct this issue they are totally missing the point about what broke the current system, I'll give you a hint: It's not the wings!



As for soloing, I was soloing Reaver's Fate well before DoTs. Easily. I can do that because I can self-heal, not because I have DoTs. Self healing toons are going to be able to solo stuff.


You shoot down my example of shroud being too easy and you bring up the reaver as a good example of how ppl have always solo'ed stuff before the DOT's were introduced...



If you want a toon that can solo a lot of content, roll a self-healing toon...don't scream for nerfs on them. When those toons you are complaining about soloing stuff are less effective, you will feel it when they group with you. Guaranteed.

For your information, my MAIN character is my FvS. I enjoyed playing her immensly before the DOT era now not so much. Why? because they've reduced playingskill yet once more and introduced yet another easy button.

The effects of it is that now I can solo stuff I could only dream about before without wasting a ton of pots and still the outcome was nowhere near certain. Also, as someone already mentioned in earlier posts in this thread. Whats the point in taking melee classes along when you can take another FvS or Arcane along and they can do as much damage and they dont need babysitting.

Cheers,
-Daz

dragons1ayer74
08-25-2011, 10:26 AM
Look at the bigger picture. Let me pull just one example. Before U9 when doing a typical pug shroud part 4 killing Arry took anything from 2-4 rounds depending on the group, I'd say 3 was the average. I saw several groups actually fail here in the earlier days, at least that fight was somewhat hard and occasionally it even failed. Post U9 I have yet to be in a pug shroud that didnt finish part 4 in a 1 rounder.

There are plenty of other quests/raids where you see the same thing going on, content that used to be at least somewhat of a challenge have now become trivial and need less and less player coordination to complete.

Not to mention that now since the DOT's were implemented divine and arcane casters can now even easier solo content that could only be done by the best of the best and barely even so. There are quests/raids today which were practically impossible to solo before that can be done now without having to max out your divine/arcane.

Is this a bad thing? yes I think it is.

Cheers,
-Daz

Less perfect party formation is great. With the sorc prestige class and spell pass all caster are more powerful (this is good) and when they are doing normal speed runs and questing DOTs are slow and not effective. Try getting a 3 stack DOT on any trash mob in the game while questing with a full group, not only is it manna inefficient and slow and doesn’t work except for objects of immense Hit Points which is usually end fight raid bosses. Personally I like just taking who ever applies to the LFM rather than waiting for 2 Healers, 1 Caster, 1 Bard, 8 DPS. Making these characters able to contribute is good and by contributing these players are having fun, hopefully everyone plays to have fun. I will agree that the base DOTs as currently implemented are a little over powered but I would error on the side of over powered rather than nerfing to the point of uselessness. Where the real danger is though is finding the balance between melee and magic dominance and right now the game is once more in the end game court of blue bar supremacy, which means less true non casting melee classes are being built and played.

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 10:35 AM
For your information, my MAIN character is my FvS. I enjoyed playing her immensly before the DOT era now not so much. Why? because they've reduced playingskill yet once more and introduced yet another easy button.

The effects of it is that now I can solo stuff I could only dream about before without wasting a ton of pots and still the outcome was nowhere near certain. Also, as someone already mentioned in earlier posts in this thread. Whats the point in taking melee classes along when you can take another FvS or Arcane along and they can do as much damage and they dont need babysitting.

Cheers,
-Daz

You have a FvS with a 40 wisdom...not exactly the FvS that would be targeted by a change to DoTs requiring a DC based save.

As for being able to solo stuff now that you couldn't before because DoTs have made it easier, I go back to comparing any self-healing toon. I recently did an all PM VoD on Hard. Prior to introducing PM, the thought of an all wizard VoD would be ludicrous. It's not the DoTs that changed the dynamic, it's the ability to stay alive.

I recently did an "all divine" Shroud. It was fun, but it took 34 minutes. Obviously not overpowered. By contrast, I have solo-healed a "normal" party build Shroud that took 21 minutes. DoTs are not breaking the game.

Lifeblood
08-25-2011, 10:41 AM
Look at the bigger picture. Let me pull just one example. Before U9 when doing a typical pug shroud part 4 killing Arry took anything from 2-4 rounds depending on the group, I'd say 3 was the average. I saw several groups actually fail here in the earlier days, at least that fight was somewhat hard and occasionally it even failed. Post U9 I have yet to be in a pug shroud that didnt finish part 4 in a 1 rounder.

3 Round average before dots..in pugs..wow I find that hard to believe we do naked runs...pre u9 in only 2

There are plenty of other quests/raids where you see the same thing going on, content that used to be at least somewhat of a challenge have now become trivial and need less and less player coordination to complete. examples please..I don't think that the Shroud counts

Not to mention that now since the DOT's were implemented divine and arcane casters can now even easier solo content that could only be done by the best of the best and barely even so. There are quests/raids today which were practically impossible to solo before that can be done now without having to max out your divine/arcane.

If you think dots make solo play possible to the masses you are definitely drinking someones cool-aid ...Lord of Blades and Tukaw builds were doing this b4 u9..heck tukaw was doing this b4 you even started playing the game..let alone b4 dots ...Neither of these builds max out divine/arcane..and none of the people i know started soloing because of dots..if you couldn't solo pre. dot with ease you can't solo post dot with ease

dotting your way through a dungeon would take many times longer and many more resources

Is this a bad thing? yes I think it is.

Cheers,
-Daz
I see bandwagon syndrome an awful lot in the forums ...however to claim that dots are the only reason a shroud can be completed in one round or that dots make it possible to solo the hardest quests in the game is an absolute **** statement

All dots do is threaten tanks epeen's because now we don't have to wait for the perfect hate tank or the huge slab of meat to hold agro

Example: mostly guild Tod on normal..I ask to be the Jailor/Suulu tank on my 32pt build 500hp 40 wis, cleric..(sorry no epic gear yet)..It was a complete success AND I had more fun than i have had in 6 months in this game..(I did lose agro 2 times but then again my rogue can pull agro from tanks if i am not careful)

Party leader sends me tell .."you know you cant do this every time .it will hurt the tanks feelings"...This is imo the main reason for the outcry.."Nurf Dots"

now this run did not go any faster/slower than any other average TOD and it cost no more/less resources..it just gave us flexibility and options..and the cleric had fun

are dots powerful?...Yes they are are they OP? not in my opinion

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 10:41 AM
You shoot down my example of shroud being too easy and you bring up the reaver as a good example of how ppl have always solo'ed stuff before the DOT's were introduced...





I did that because this thread is about how DoTs should be nerfed because they are overpowered. I was soloing Sins on my FvS well before DoTs. I don't even use DoTs in Sins, for the most part. My point is that DoTs didn't break the game by making things easy to solo.

I didn't see the EChrono solo post by an FvS. However, if somebody did do this, no doubt they used invisibility to get to the bank. Spent a ton of time kiting, tossing blade barriers and DoTs, and no doubt used a ton of resources. It's not like after the implementation of DoTs, FvS are running around willy-nilly soloing Epic Raids. Sounds to me like somebody took on a personal challenge, used a lot of resources to do it, along with a lot of tactics.

That's bad, how?

Dazalarian
08-25-2011, 11:46 AM
You have a FvS with a 40 wisdom...not exactly the FvS that would be targeted by a change to DoTs requiring a DC based save.

So you invested buildpoints in getting high STR so you can hit stuff and do DPS, I have invested buildpoints in WIS so I would be able to cause DPS in that way. Whats the problem with that?



As for being able to solo stuff now that you couldn't before because DoTs have made it easier, I go back to comparing any self-healing toon. I recently did an all PM VoD on Hard. Prior to introducing PM, the thought of an all wizard VoD would be ludicrous. It's not the DoTs that changed the dynamic, it's the ability to stay alive.

I recently did an "all divine" Shroud. It was fun, but it took 34 minutes. Obviously not overpowered. By contrast, I have solo-healed a "normal" party build Shroud that took 21 minutes. DoTs are not breaking the game.

And yet there is almost weekly postings of FvS or arcanes soloing VoD for example. Casters are taking shield feats so they can block and tank raid bosses (in party or solo) while they keep aggro with the DOT's.

I've done duo FvS VOD elite, not a special feat by any means, but I'm telling you, no selfhealing in the world would have made that possible before U9 and the DOT's. And before someone has to point it out, I know ppl have soloed it on elite before U9, guard tactic, also saw the screenshot where the guy had 3 broken leviks defender shields on his bars so I hardly count that as the norm, plus the fact that quite alot of resources were used.

Cheers,
-Daz

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 12:09 PM
So you invested buildpoints in getting high STR so you can hit stuff and do DPS, I have invested buildpoints in WIS so I would be able to cause DPS in that way. Whats the problem with that?


There is no problem with that. I am not asking for your implosion to be nerfed. I am guessing you built your FvS prior to Divine Punishment, as did I. We both chose a route to do DPS. The developers added Divine Punishment. It helps you and it helps me.

The difference is you want to impact my build, with little or no impact to yours.

Soleran
08-25-2011, 12:14 PM
There is no problem with that. I am not asking for your implosion to be nerfed. I am guessing you built your FvS prior to Divine Punishment, as did I. We both chose a route to do DPS. The developers added Divine Punishment. It helps you and it helps me.

The difference is you want to impact my build, with little or no impact to yours.

Actually as a melee fvs you get far more dps out of divine punishment if you are taking hits as you melee (and of course you are) so getting stacks up while you melee are going to drive your dps up farm more then say an evokers as well as having the added benefit of not needing wisdom to boost a dc for your dot.

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 12:23 PM
Actually as a melee fvs you get far more dps out of divine punishment if you are taking hits as you melee (and of course you are) so getting stacks up while you melee are going to drive your dps up farm more then say an evokers.

I can concede that point. My aura is helping me out while an evoker build probably isn't getting the same boost.

I would say that a spell like "Divine Punishment" (implying your diety is putting the smack-down on something) could be modified to the suggestion of Caster Level+ Charisma Modifier, as Charisma is the primary stat for divine builds like Paladin and Favored Souls as it pertains to diety/warrior/population relationship.

I disagree with the saving throw aspect, but I would not argue if the damage output was based on the primary statistic of the class involved. Wisdom for Clerics and Charisma for Favored Souls. I understand that for purposes of DC on spells, FvS use wisdom. Personally, I see this as a "I understand how to use this spell effectively" piece of the game that I live with (although I think Charisma makes more sense ... Sorcerors and Wizards anyone?)

However, for damage modification, it should fall in line with Divine Righteousness and other spells that modify diety damage. Charisma changes your number of turns for undead (granted by diety), Divine Righteousness (diety), Smite Evil (diety) and in the case of Divine Punishment, should be based again on Charisma. IMHO

pHo3nix
08-25-2011, 12:26 PM
As long as they leave wings as they are now on live they could remove dp completly imo: i bought the fvs class for wings, cause they are a lot of fun :D

PNellesen
08-25-2011, 12:29 PM
I know this discussion is primarily about FvS, and if these changes are SOLELY for FvS, fine, but please leave my Clerics out of it. They're fine as they are, they don't need any further changes to decrease their damage output.

Thanks! :)

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 12:32 PM
I know this discussion is primarily about FvS, and if these changes are SOLELY for FvS, fine, but please leave my Clerics out of it. They're fine as they are, they don't need any further changes to decrease their damage output.

Thanks! :)

If they changed it to primary stat modifying the damage output, Clerics would probably come out way ahead. Clerics only have to really worry about wisdom.

Clerics could be the big winner in this thing, if implemented! ;)

Orratti
08-25-2011, 12:37 PM
Divine Punishment

Acts of god have no saving throw

Some things should be resistant probably. Devils and demons on their own planes as they are basically angels of their own god and that god having power in his own plane his angels should be resistant if not immune to the influence or punishment of another god in another plane. Not talking theology here but planer theory and the powers that reside and have influence there. Having a divine caster's abilities limited when on another plane is also reasonable and sometimes caster's are completely unable to cast any spell on other planes as the physical laws of those planes are completely different from the plane the caster originated from.

Clipping the wings also makes sense. If the monster being kited is able to catch up with and destroy the one kiting then the power of the DoT's won't matter. Make the DoT's die with their caster and they will matter even less.

Light spells have no save. They never have. If they are that much of an issue the devs could quit letting them stack, reduce their damage, or allow fewer to stack. Adding saves isn't the only solution and isn't even the best one. So what if a melee FvS who dump statted his dc stat can get as much damage out of the spell. It's not very likely adding a save is going to hurt anyone but that one type of build or those who don't have past lives or farmed the proper equipment. Now that build is back to being gimped melee with no way to make up the difference.

If it is overpowered there are going to be better ways of dealing with it other than completely wiping out effective builds.

Battlehawke
08-25-2011, 12:41 PM
don't nerf, give melees a dot too!

Chai
08-25-2011, 12:43 PM
don't nerf, give melees a dot too!

Moar dots...

Moar dots....

Moar dots.....

Stop dots.

Those in support of nerfs...50DKP MINUS!!! :p

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 12:44 PM
don't nerf, give melees a dot too!

Melee's have a DoT...it's called "I'm whacking you with a khopesh over and over again". ;)

Battlehawke
08-25-2011, 01:01 PM
Seamonkey you say melees hve a dot that is hitting with a khop over and over. Then by your definition casting a spell over and over is dot too? So the OP wants to eliminate all majgic and meee? Really? C'mon. Really? Enough with the nerfing already. Those who want netfs should go play Sims if you want to pretend to dress up and look at stuff. This is DDO. Balance by making everything else better, not by nerfing.

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 01:58 PM
Seamonkey you say melees hve a dot that is hitting with a khop over and over. Then by your definition casting a spell over and over is dot too? So the OP wants to eliminate all majgic and meee? Really? C'mon. Really? Enough with the nerfing already. Those who want netfs should go play Sims if you want to pretend to dress up and look at stuff. This is DDO. Balance by making everything else better, not by nerfing.

Um...you didn't read any of my posts! I'm hurt. ;)

I am totally against nerfing. Pretty much anything. The only nerf I thought made sense was the wounding of puncturing nerf...and the named boss instakill nerf.

I think nerfing is bad, mmm kay. :D I was commenting on the fact that somebody said melee's should get a DoT. I was pointing out that they have a DoT. They damage over time with whatever they are whacking away with...and they don't lose anything doing it.

Battlehawke
08-25-2011, 02:19 PM
I hear ya. But re-re read my post. A melee's ability to whack on something over and over is limited by the HEALERS amount of mana just like a casters ability is limited by its amount of mana. Sure scrolls and pots help in both situations, but there is no such thing as a melee that has an unlimitted supply of "beating down" something. The suggestion that a caster should have better dps or insta kills when a melee should be limited as such because a caster has a limited supply of mana is just ridiculous. The big difference is that in most situations the caster is Only using his mana for DPS or CC while the healer is using his limitted supply of mana to keep up that caster and the melees.

So , a melee hitting on sonething over and over isn't ANY different than a caster casting a fire ball over and over, and certainly isn't anything like a Dot in which you can cast and run around and wait for something to die, which continues to do damage even after you die.

Melee is not anything like a Damage Over Time spell.

Emili
08-25-2011, 03:55 PM
I hear ya. But re-re read my post. A melee's ability to whack on something over and over is limited by the HEALERS amount of mana just like a casters ability is limited by its amount of mana. Sure scrolls and pots help in both situations, but there is no such thing as a melee that has an unlimitted supply of "beating down" something. The suggestion that a caster should have better dps or insta kills when a melee should be limited as such because a caster has a limited supply of mana is just ridiculous. The big difference is that in most situations the caster is Only using his mana for DPS or CC while the healer is using his limitted supply of mana to keep up that caster and the melees.

So , a melee hitting on sonething over and over isn't ANY different than a caster casting a fire ball over and over, and certainly isn't anything like a Dot in which you can cast and run around and wait for something to die, which continues to do damage even after you die.

Melee is not anything like a Damage Over Time spell.

Hey... make my ravager 2d12 +1 per lvl bleed and make it stacking to x3 or so and lets enhance it via PA and IC so they work similar to Max and Empower on it ... oh and add some enhancement lines and items to enhance it also. ;)


Barber of Seville I : Your infatuation in the use of sharp edges entices your appetite for blood, Meaty things you slice into bleed 10% more.

gloopygloop
08-25-2011, 04:05 PM
I hear ya. But re-re read my post. A melee's ability to whack on something over and over is limited by the HEALERS amount of mana

A melee's ability to whack on something is limited by their current HP. Whatever source they they choose to use to refill that HP pool is up to them.
A caster's ability to zap on something is limited by BOTH their current HP AND their SP.

You can't say that a melee's HP limit is the same as a caster's SP limit and then ignore the fact that casters also have limited HP just like the melee types.

licho
08-25-2011, 05:40 PM
Hey... make my ravager 2d12 +1 per lvl bleed and make it stacking to x3 or so and lets enhance it via PA and IC so they work similar to Max and Empower on it ... oh and add some enhancement lines and items to enhance it also. ;)




DO not forget about superior bleed V clikie. :-)
That would be very cool.

Noopleh
08-25-2011, 05:44 PM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.



Clay Golem and Iron Golem, flesh Golem, Titan?

iirc, the titan in evon5 is highly resistant (if not immune) to light

Vellrad
08-25-2011, 05:50 PM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.


ever done eSnitch?

The_Brave2
08-25-2011, 05:51 PM
DO not forget about superior bleed V clikie. :-)
That would be very cool.

the barbarians that the ravager ring is intended for would be angry :D

Emili
08-25-2011, 05:57 PM
the barbarians that the ravager ring is intended for would be angry :D

Lmao, I can see the post two years down the line... kindred to not being able to pop the cap off a remove curse potion before guild potions came along.

/click bleed V (misfired charge)
Arrrgggghh! /rage
OMG my bleed V did not go off!
/dismiss rage
/click bleed V
(You are too enraged to perform this action!)
MADSTONED!
/hopping in circles
Damn'it! Sulu! Hold on and stop hitting me 'til am ready for you...

Lifeblood
08-25-2011, 06:53 PM
Lmao, I can see the post two years down the line... kindred to not being able to pop the cap off a remove curse potion before guild potions came along.

/click bleed V (misfired charge)
Arrrgggghh! /rage
OMG my bleed V did not go off!
/dismiss rage
/click bleed V
(You are too enraged to perform this action!)
MADSTONED!
/hopping in circles
Damn'it! Sulu! Hold on and stop hitting me 'til am ready for you...


so true I Love it...+ for making me smile

Battlehawke
08-25-2011, 07:53 PM
I love this idea.... +1. Casters certainly would have some competition then....


Hey... make my ravager 2d12 +1 per lvl bleed and make it stacking to x3 or so and lets enhance it via PA and IC so they work similar to Max and Empower on it ... oh and add some enhancement lines and items to enhance it also.

Ummmmmmm..so in the following... a melees hp has nothing to do with the healers mana? Do you run Epic Raids with no healer? and you think melees and casters are balanced? ...and yes...I am saying that a melee can only do damage as long as someone is there to heal it (while the healer has mana), just as a casters ability to do damage is only as long as it has mana. BOTH are limited by a mana pool. Yes..that is what I'm saying...



a melee's ability to whack on something is limited by their current HP. Whatever source they they choose to use to refill that HP pool is up to them.
A caster's ability to zap on something is limited by BOTH their current HP AND their SP.
You can't say that a melee's HP limit is the same as a caster's SP limit and then ignore the fact that casters also have limited HP just like the melee types.

MrTops
08-25-2011, 09:38 PM
Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

Seamonkeysix
08-25-2011, 10:11 PM
Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

It's a lost cause trying to explain this one, bud. You can give 'em math, you can give them philosophy, you can give them wikis, you can talk until you are blue in the face. The bottom line is what I have said over and over in this thread...it comes down to "You have something I don't. NERF IT!" :( It has nothing to do with party dynamic. It all comes down to some guy being happy he solo'd this or that and somebody who can't pitching a fit.

Eso
08-25-2011, 10:32 PM
Agree 100% dots are OP and devs are wrong,OP isnt the wings,OP is the DOTS = no save = BEST DPS in the game = low sp amount for each tick...

Milfeulle
08-25-2011, 10:46 PM
Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

Keep in mind that some FVS are melee type, they swing their eSoS while doting.

Angelus_dead
08-25-2011, 11:21 PM
So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?
Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

Lord_Thanatos
08-25-2011, 11:25 PM
Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

Obviously the FvS is just going to stand there doing nothing else, in order to let the barb maintain his lead...

Emili
08-26-2011, 12:55 AM
Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

Shhh... do not let Shade know you beat out his Evocation Archmage by nineteen seconds. ;)

Emili
08-26-2011, 03:07 AM
Obviously the FvS is just going to stand there doing nothing else, in order to let the barb maintain his lead...

Actually, the FvS will have to "fight" toe to toe more often when they get agro... Leap of Faith is changing to cost more mana and have increased cooldown after few uses. The dev's intended it as an escape ability and not to be used as a tactic.

Seamonkeysix
08-26-2011, 06:53 AM
Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

So in your mind, divines should just stay in the back and heal the party? I am not with you on this one, Angelus. Even if the spell does do 1/3 of the DPS of a melee toon, it doesn't even scratch the surface of what arcane casters can do. Other than Divine Punishment, divines really don't have a reliable spell that can add to party DPS that doesn't completely inhibit their ability to heal as far as spell points.

DoTs, specifically Divine Punishment, is a good thing. It helps the party deal with high HP bosses quicker. This allows for less overall resource uses by the FvS and Cleric. It is fun. These things combined make healing a lot more attractive than it used to be. Getting a healer has typically been the most difficult spot to fill in any party. As far as I am concerned, DP isn't overpowered and attracts people to the divine classes. More clerics and FvS is a good thing. It equals more parties and LFMs. That equals more choices and more players.

ayspam
08-26-2011, 07:11 AM
/very much signed, you want full damage on DOTS do something for it. Simply cant stand blob builds.

gloopygloop
08-26-2011, 07:19 AM
/very much signed, you want full damage on DOTS do something for it. Simply cant stand blob builds.

If you simply can't stand blob builds, then I'm guessing that you don't like Blade Barrier, Searing Light, Holy Aura, Polar Ray or a host of other spells.

semu
08-26-2011, 07:25 AM
/totally signed

ALL dots should have a save for half damage or even no damage, BUT the dot should stick on the mob (save or not) so you have the timer running and can stack it up.

this way they can give bosses high saves to reduce or prevent the dot damage.

wings getting nerfed because they dont want fvs to kite raid bosses, but sitting there shield blocking with the main stat dumped and just hitting the same key over and over again is ok?

ayspam
08-26-2011, 07:42 AM
If you simply can't stand blob builds, then I'm guessing that you don't like Blade Barrier, Searing Light, Holy Aura, Polar Ray or a host of other spells.

I dont see where you re coming from... I love blade barrier but also I didnt dump wisdom, and can actually very reliably hit mobs for full damage.

Blob = a character who focuses on lots of hit points, dumps main casting stat, has no meaningful DC whatsoever, relies solely on no save spells, DOTS and shieldblocking.

Dont know where holy aura and searing light come into the picture.

I m just suggesting that just like blade barrier fireball DBF or any other spell that has a save should be applied to DOTs aswell. If you want them to be reliable then build for it. Standing in place blocking and dotting is no challenge imho. The save wouldnt have to be too high, a 'blob' would have an apprx 20 evocation DC, a decently geared and built evoker be it FvS cleric, sorc, wiz would have mid 30s to mid 40s. So if the save we re to be between 30-35, that should be more then enoug to inspire people to not dump main casting stat completely.

Example:

LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

gloopygloop
08-26-2011, 08:36 AM
I dont see where you re coming from... I love blade barrier but also I didnt dump wisdom, and can actually very reliably hit mobs for full damage.

Blob = a character who focuses on lots of hit points, dumps main casting stat, has no meaningful DC whatsoever, relies solely on no save spells, DOTS and shieldblocking.

My FvS has lots of HP, dumped his main casting stat (I can get all the way up to a 16 with ship buffs, my +2 Tome and my Concordant Opposition item), has no meaningful DC whatsoever and relies solely on no save spells, Blade Barriers and a great big chunk of metal that he swings in front of himself. Every once in a while, I get a big number on my Blade Barrier when something rolls a 1 on its save, but I can kill everything that you can kill even with my half strength BB. It just takes a little longer. And it doesn't even take *that* much longer than a max Wis Cleric's BB because of the bonus that I get to untyped damage.

I also use Divine Punishment against the mountains of HP that we get as red/purple named bosses, but it's honestly just not worth casting on just about else because it takes over 20 seconds to triple stack and everything that isn't a big mountain of HP is already dead by the time those 20 seconds go by. The only trash that I cast DP on are Ogre Mages because the DoT keeps ticking when they go invisible, so I can DP an Ogre Mage and then beat down one of his Ogre bodyguards while the Mage slowly dies. Sleeping Dust is much less annoying with DP.



Dont know where holy aura and searing light come into the picture.

Holy Aura is a no-save spell that blinds all enemies in its AoE.
Searing Light is a no-save damage ray that I use to smash enemy faces in with photons of JUSTICE!


I m just suggesting that just like blade barrier fireball DBF or any other spell that has a save should be applied to DOTs aswell. If you want them to be reliable then build for it. Standing in place blocking and dotting is no challenge imho. The save wouldnt have to be too high, a 'blob' would have an apprx 20 evocation DC, a decently geared and built evoker be it FvS cleric, sorc, wiz would have mid 30s to mid 40s. So if the save we re to be between 30-35, that should be more then enoug to inspire people to not dump main casting stat completely.

Except that's now how saves actually work in DDO. Spells in DDO offer either a Fort save or a Reflex save or a Will save. If you add a save to the DoTs, then even most max-Wis Clerics and FvS will see the challenging Red and Purple bosses making their saves most of the time because those bosses tend to have good saves.


Example:

LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

If he saves on 45 DC Blade Barriers regularly, then he'll also save on 45 DC DoTs regularly too. The problem with adding a save is that even the most high DC Clerics and FvS will be just as screwed as the Wis dump stat melee FvS build unless you're attacking someone like Harry who was already a joke even before the DoTs.

ayspam
08-26-2011, 08:49 AM
My FvS has lots of HP, dumped his main casting stat (I can get all the way up to a 16 with ship buffs, my +2 Tome and my Concordant Opposition item), has no meaningful DC whatsoever and relies solely on no save spells, Blade Barriers and a great big chunk of metal that he swings in front of himself. Every once in a while, I get a big number on my Blade Barrier when something rolls a 1 on its save, but I can kill everything that you can kill even with my half strength BB. It just takes a little longer. And it doesn't even take *that* much longer than a max Wis Cleric's BB because of the bonus that I get to untyped damage.

I also use Divine Punishment against the mountains of HP that we get as red/purple named bosses, but it's honestly just not worth casting on just about else because it takes over 20 seconds to triple stack and everything that isn't a big mountain of HP is already dead by the time those 20 seconds go by. The only trash that I cast DP on are Ogre Mages because the DoT keeps ticking when they go invisible, so I can DP an Ogre Mage and then beat down one of his Ogre bodyguards while the Mage slowly dies. Sleeping Dust is much less annoying with DP.




Holy Aura is a no-save spell that blinds all enemies in its AoE.
Searing Light is a no-save damage ray that I use to smash enemy faces in with photons of JUSTICE!



Except that's now how saves actually work in DDO. Spells in DDO offer either a Fort save or a Reflex save or a Will save. If you add a save to the DoTs, then even most max-Wis Clerics and FvS will see the challenging Red and Purple bosses making their saves most of the time because those bosses tend to have good saves.



If he saves on 45 DC Blade Barriers regularly, then he'll also save on 45 DC DoTs regularly too. The problem with adding a save is that even the most high DC Clerics and FvS will be just as screwed as the Wis dump stat melee FvS build unless you're attacking someone like Harry who was already a joke even before the DoTs.

This is the reason why I wrote that DOTs shouldnt have a sky high save, main stat based casters would still get through reliably, and mellee types have their weapons to compensate for the loss in saved DOTs. Also I didnt say no dmg DOTs, I suggested save for half. Might have forgotten that to write that, I m too hungover, but anyway.

Dazalarian
08-26-2011, 09:00 AM
LoB has evasion, very good evasion cant be cursed. He saves on 45 DC blade barriers regularly, so I take it he ll save on any other evocation spell with that DC, yet one could still stand there and DOT? Why? The problem isnt wing kiting, the main problem are the DOTs and how they re implemented.

I m cutting the tree from underneath me, as I play caster as mains, but DOTs need some thought. Nerfing wings isnt the solution.

^ This

Cheers,
-Daz

Malky
08-26-2011, 09:02 AM
Or back to the Original Post, Is Divine Power Over Powered?

Went and hit up the portal in Aussircaex's Valley with Divine Power and killed it in a bit over 90 seconds.

Three stacked ticks hovered at about 360 - 380 which fits with the notion that Brilliance stacks with enhancments as described by sirgog here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252161

1 stack
---------------------
23.5 - Average Base Damage
2.5 - Maximized, Empowered
2.15 - Smiting, Brilliance
3 - 3 stacks
---------------------
378 per tick = 190 dps

I'll post the combat log later as it's at home and I'm at work.

190 dps suggests I should take the 12000 hp portal down in 63 seconds but it takes times to ramp up to the spell and there's the 10/- dr.

Just looking at my 90 second time, it's about 1/3 of the best times posted in Shade's DPS 2 Challenge
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300873

So, is doing 1/3 the DPS of a melee character overpowered?

To be honest, the average dps would look more like :

378.9375 x (1+1.75x0.18) = 498 /tick average, FvS spells can crit too

Say the target is hitting your champion, with 20s curse duration after u11 (i think) he will probably have a 10% vulnerability most of (if not all) the time.

498x1.1=548 / tick, or 274 dps

About half of what the best melees push out on sobrien.

Ahhh numb3rs :p

Feralthyrtiaq
08-26-2011, 09:10 AM
/not signed at all

Granted most of yall know all this.

But...

Casters of all types get a mix of spells. Some require saves, some don't, some require spell pen checks and some don't.

I think that FVS using Wis for Spell DC is a load of horse s as well.

Wiz=Int=SP and Spell DC Mod
Sorc=Cha=Sp and Spell DC Mod
Cleric=Wis=Sp and Spell DC Mod

You'd think that logically FVS would follow like sort but with divine spells, but it doesn't instead...

FVS=Cha for Sp and Wis for Spell DC Mod...but get PrE Enhancements to Damage for Spells and Melee Enh that kinda balance out having to split the Caster Stat of the Class between 2 Stats.

And yall want more limitations put on the class with saves to an awesome spell.

Limitations based on your playstyle and opinions?

Wings are getting f-d with, f with spell saves w/e

really really not signed...

hate the idea...

Darkrok
08-26-2011, 09:17 AM
I tought I got reped for a clever comment, but it was for a stupid typo :) Nevermind, I am sure they can carry those too.

Do you remember how much fun it was to play evocation archmages? Then came the nerf and was anybody feeling better afterwards?

I'd still have my evo AM on his first life if they hadn't unnecessarily nerfed him. He wasn't dominating content...nowhere near as powerful as PM's were THEN (let alone now) but it was a fun build. Now...meh.

MrTops
08-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Is that supposed to be a joke? You measure against a world-champion best-ever zero-fort non-AC melee DPS as a way to show that Divine Punishment isn't too great?

To answer your question: Yes, having 1/3rd of such a peak possible melee DPS from just casting the same long-range spell a few times a minute is seriously overpowered.

Where is it written that melee dps should be greater than caster dps?

I'd have thought, just as a flavor thing, casters should be able to beat melee dps until their spell points run out (since melee has no spell point cost involved).

Razcar
08-29-2011, 03:36 AM
Where is it written that melee dps should be greater than caster dps?It's more a risk versus reward thing. A melee has to be in close range to do his DPS. That means the monster will hit him back, and places him at risk of dying.

A caster's DPS is ranged. That means there's less risk involved - the monster has trouble damaging the caster when he's far away and on the move.

It makes sense that the more you risk, the greater the rewards should be. Higher risk, more damage. That is not the case now though. It is the opposite.

Perspicacity
08-29-2011, 03:42 AM
It's more a risk versus reward thing. A melee has to be in close range to do his DPS. That means the monster will hit him back, and places him at risk of dying.

A caster's DPS is ranged. That means there's less risk involved - the monster has trouble damaging the caster when he's far away and on the move.

It makes sense that the more you risk, the greater the rewards should be. Higher risk, more damage. That is not the case now though. It is the opposite.

Casters are generally smarter than melees so it only makes sense that they would have developed the better strategy. Messing with casters undermines inherent barbarian/paladin stupidity.

Zerkul
08-29-2011, 03:51 AM
I agree on the save for the DOTs spells. I've already suggested it more than once probably, the only thing i ask is to carefully think about the right save to give to each DOT spell. For example a save i would absolutely exclude is will-save type. Will-saves are related to the ability of a taget to use their mind "fortitude" to resist against some mental related abilities: mind whip, charms, holds can be resisted with willsave, if something attacks the subjects mind it has to have a will-save.

DOTs do not attack minds so they should't have will-saves at all, but instead should have reflex or fortitude saves. For example electrical DOTs can have a reflex save while ice based DOTs can have a fortitude one or bot can have reflex. You can put a save at start of the DOT to avoid it or you can give a save against each tick of damage to halve it. A balance between resonable and game mechanics has to be achieved in order to make DOTs good spells, not over-powered, but to not over-nerf them.



Another good idea, instead of giving a save to DOTs is to make them missile type like the melf arrow: this way you give target the possibility to dodge it in time if moving but you do not nerf the DOT damage.

Templarion
08-29-2011, 04:59 AM
How about making mobs cast well boosted DoTs without saves against players, too? Like every caster from level 7 would be casting just dots of different damage source on players?

Rogue:"Caster! Kill it! Kill the caster! ow ow ow ow..."
Fighter: "I'm killing it ! I'm killing it! It's dead! Oh yeah... but ow... ow ow... damn dot... ow ow ow..."
Cleric: "Ow, ow, ow, ow... I am out of sp guys, ****... ow, ow, ow, ow"

That would be awesome. :)

Razcar
08-29-2011, 05:02 AM
Casters are generally smarter than melees so it only makes sense that they would have developed the better strategy. Messing with casters undermines inherent barbarian/paladin stupidity.
That is of course true. But only for Wizards :)

licho
08-29-2011, 08:12 AM
How about making mobs cast well boosted DoTs without saves against players, too? Like every caster from level 7 would be casting just dots of different damage source on players?

Rogue:"Caster! Kill it! Kill the caster! ow ow ow ow..."
Fighter: "I'm killing it ! I'm killing it! It's dead! Oh yeah... but ow... ow ow... damn dot... ow ow ow..."
Cleric: "Ow, ow, ow, ow... I am out of sp guys, ****... ow, ow, ow, ow"

That would be awesome. :)

Agree, mobs should stop be gimp and learn to play.
I has a image of encounter when adventurers enter the room and then...
Zzzzap.
Maximaze EMpower Full Manipulacion Line with Superior Spark Lightingball.

Dont you think it would be cool?

Shade
09-16-2011, 01:30 AM
Needs more comments..

When I first saw the dots.. I was all for them. They sounded like a great way to allow arcanes contribute on boss fights.

And indeed that became the case.

But the major issue here is:
Everyone arcane became a clone during boss battles.

Want to boss DPS pre U9: Be an extremely smart well geared player with top gear and use a complex variety of spells based on the bosses weaknesses. It was possible, but oh so difficult.

Post U9?
Push button 1 and 2 every 15 seconds. Or just set up macro and go afk. It doesn't matter how poor your stats are, 22 int, 48 int, 18 charima or 46 charisma.. It doesn't matter if you have an epic abishai set, the damage is the same for everyone. It destroys the spirit of progression and reduces a casters role in boss DPS fights to "click 2 buttons, and if your REAL PRO, use 2 clickies as well"
Stats? Dont matter.

So while I don't feel the DPS output of Niacs biting cold + Eladars stacked on most bosses is too much for the highest end of gameplay, I do feel its too much for the basic casual - just hit lvl20 fresh off the boat caster.

Adding a save will help rectify that. I kinda think casters should get another spell like improved sunder does now to help reduce the reflex save of bosses tho:
Maybe a will save type effect like solid fog, but less intrusive, and stackable.. At a high SP cost, high druation and slow cast animation so its mainly effective on bosses.

EG: Ucanny un-dodging: Will save to negate, SR applies, Lasts 6 seconds per caster level, -1 penalty to reflex saves. Stacks up to 10 times. Standard cooldown (couple seconds).
Perhaps lvl6 arcane since there arent many great lvl6 debuffs.
30SP.

Not per-caster like dots, so several good DC casters could stack this up in tandem.

So for 300 SP, along with strong enough DC/Spell pen, you can ensure that your dots lands very reliably for 2 minutes, or another 2min for 30 more sp, as that will reset duration.

Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.

slimkj
09-16-2011, 07:04 AM
You'd have to be a pretty poor or lazy player to just hit Niac's/Eladar's and then sit back. What's the point of playing at all if that's all you're doing? They're something I reapply between other things.

I bet the same players who currently do that in a boss battle either did nothing or just spammed Polar Ray prior to the introduction of DOTs.

Teharahma
09-16-2011, 07:12 AM
Fortitude save for half damage.

Done.

Hephaistor
09-16-2011, 07:25 AM
Fortitude save for half damage.

Done.

Would anyone use them then? No. We have better spells with fort saves.

Viisari
09-16-2011, 07:49 AM
Fortitude save for half damage.

Done.

This.


Would anyone use them then? No. We have better spells with fort saves.

Care to name one? If you say disintegrate I'll have to assume you've never tried it against a raid boss, excluding Abbot.

<edit> Also, the changes to improved sunder mean that raid bosses actually wouldn't be saving dots much from your average casters, those who dumped their casting stat are the ones who would suffer from this change. That still won't make disintegrate good though, its SP efficiency is very bad compared to dots.

Hephaistor
09-16-2011, 08:09 AM
All the death spells? If it has a low fort save it is dead before I the melees can reach it. Why bother with a dot then? And I don't think spells should be nerfed because of epic or elite raid bosses. Make them challenging somehow else, not by nerfing. I can't even believe that so many people are calling for nerfs. Of cource everybody IS palying the class he/she wants to get nerfed him/herself. But I believe most of the time the favorite toon is from an ohther class and it hurts axeboys epeen to see a caster make OK damage even without an endless grind. Perhaps some casters will start complaining about the monks inherent ability to do damage? Right, that one did get nerfed allready.

I have started my 28 point cleric with "only" 16 wisdom because I wanted some CON, CHA and STR too. I have medicore gear, but I am of some use beside healing with my dots. Most other damage spells have stopped working more or less for me at the higher levels. Yea, I know. That's how it is supposed to be for some of you. Reroll, TR get some greensteel and epic gear or get out of my way. And dare you to kill mobs with dots. I see the point that some pros can missuse those spells, but they are of great value for all the players without 40+ in casting stats and +2 DC items.

Viisari
09-16-2011, 08:22 AM
All the death spells? If it has a low fort save it is dead before I the melees can reach it. Why bother with a dot then? And I don't think spells should be nerfed because of epic or elite raid bosses. Make them challenging somehow else, not by nerfing. I can't even believe that so many people are calling for nerfs. Of cource everybody IS palying the class he/she wants to get nerfed him/herself. But I believe most of the time the favorite toon is from an ohther class and it hurts axeboys epeen to see a caster make OK damage even without an endless grind. Perhaps some casters will start complaining about the monks inherent ability to do damage? Right, that one did get nerfed allready.

You seem to think people use DoTs against trash mobs. You are wrong.

<edit> Or perhaps I should put it this way: If you're using dots against trash mobs, you're doing it wrong. There are currently no good damage spells with fortitude save that would work against raid bosses.

Combined with the risen fortification in end game raids and the fact that dots have no fortitude save, I'd estimate that sorcerers are now the best end game dps by far, which is of course silly, because they were already much better in most situations than any melee class.

And before you start whining about how I'm just some angry melee, you can go check out my main toon from MyDDO.

bennar
09-16-2011, 08:44 AM
Agree..

The really crazy one is DP tho.. Not only is it no save. But not a single monster in the game has any light resistance.



Flesh Golems do :P
But I dont think that's the issue here...

gloopygloop
09-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.

Shade is correct. Only Barbarians should be attempting to do damage during quests and Divine casters should just quietly heal them.

Chai
09-16-2011, 09:04 AM
Needs more comments..

When I first saw the dots.. I was all for them. They sounded like a great way to allow arcanes contribute on boss fights.

And indeed that became the case.

Yeap.


But the major issue here is:
Everyone arcane became a clone during boss battles.

Everyone was a clone before U9 as well. Firewall and run in circles until you encounter


Want to boss DPS pre U9: Be an extremely smart well geared player with top gear and use a complex variety of spells based on the bosses weaknesses. It was possible, but oh so difficult.

LOL. You mean rotate through one single element of spells the mob is vulnerable to. Most casters were fire / ice pre U9 for damage, so they just rotated through ice spells mostly.


Post U9?
Push button 1 and 2 every 15 seconds. Or just set up macro and go afk. It doesn't matter how poor your stats are, 22 int, 48 int, 18 charima or 46 charisma.. It doesn't matter if you have an epic abishai set, the damage is the same for everyone. It destroys the spirit of progression and reduces a casters role in boss DPS fights to "click 2 buttons, and if your REAL PRO, use 2 clickies as well"
Stats? Dont matter.

No less intelligent than haveing to rotate through ice spells. Push buttons 1 then 2 then 3 then 4 > repeat. /sleep.


So while I don't feel the DPS output of Niacs biting cold + Eladars stacked on most bosses is too much for the highest end of gameplay, I do feel its too much for the basic casual - just hit lvl20 fresh off the boat caster.

Adding a save will help rectify that. I kinda think casters should get another spell like improved sunder does now to help reduce the reflex save of bosses tho:
Maybe a will save type effect like solid fog, but less intrusive, and stackable.. At a high SP cost, high druation and slow cast animation so its mainly effective on bosses.

EG: Ucanny un-dodging: Will save to negate, SR applies, Lasts 6 seconds per caster level, -1 penalty to reflex saves. Stacks up to 10 times. Standard cooldown (couple seconds).
Perhaps lvl6 arcane since there arent many great lvl6 debuffs.
30SP.

Not per-caster like dots, so several good DC casters could stack this up in tandem.

So for 300 SP, along with strong enough DC/Spell pen, you can ensure that your dots lands very reliably for 2 minutes, or another 2min for 30 more sp, as that will reset duration.

Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.

I dont agree with anything that is said here, because none of it brings up what is really ******** about DOTs.

STACKING.

Stacking is what makes DOTs OP. If a water savant who focused somewhat on lightning has one of each dot sitting on the mob, they still need to rotate through their single target DPS spells to be effective raid boss DPS. Not having a stacking mechanic would have solved every_single_problem regarding fire and forget mechanics being too powerful. There would have been no need to nerf wings as well, because one measly DOT on a raid boss isnt going to kill the boss in any semblance of time where the FvS would still have any mana. Instead they gave us fire and forget and nerfed wings as an excuse.

What did they do instead? Nerf Wings, which took no real power away from FvS, and now players are griping about giving DOTs a save? LOL. Making the DOT not stack makes it so the spells which casters do have to gear for still have to be used to make them effective.

Lavek
09-16-2011, 09:06 AM
Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.

yes..make every fvs and clr no other option but to hjeal the mana sponge!!!


on a serious note
yes to saves on dots - why should some dumped wis/int toon make the same dmg output as some who is heavily specialized in his DCs and spell dmg

Gordo
09-16-2011, 09:14 AM
Sorry, out of touch with the acronyms... Thanks

Ancient
09-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Fortitude save for half damage.

Done.
I have two issues with this.

1. In the case of boss mobs with ultra high fort saves, we'll be back in the same place of dump stat casters doing the same damage as non-dump stat casters.

2. The save mechanic results in a hard threshold where if you can't hit some number... then don't bother. This makes the mid-level wis builds, or the not-yet-geared wis builds

If there must be a change, I'd rather see the spell adjusted to 1d6+wis modifier. This would result in scaling damage with the pure casters doing the most, and the dump-stat casters somewhere close to where the Fortitude save would place them, with a more even progression for builds in between the two.

The 1d6+wis modifier formula could result in increasing the damage for the really high wis builds. I think they deserve it, but if thats a problem then cap the wis modifier at class level and the spell would cap out at the exact same damage that it did before.

Lavek
09-16-2011, 09:20 AM
I have two issues with this.

1. In the case of boss mobs with ultra high fort saves, we'll be back in the same place of dump stat casters doing the same damage as non-dump stat casters.

2. The save mechanic results in a hard threshold where if you can't hit some number... then don't bother. This makes the mid-level wis builds, or the not-yet-geared wis builds

If there must be a change, I'd rather see the spell adjusted to 1d6+wis modifier. This would result in scaling damage with the pure casters doing the most, and the dump-stat casters somewhere close to where the Fortitude save would place them, with a more even progression for builds in between the two.

The 1d6+wis modifier formula could result in increasing the damage for the really high wis builds. I think they deserve it, but if thats a problem then cap the wis modifier at class level and the spell would cap out at the exact same damage that it did before.


I like this..even better than saves...good idea

danotmano1998
09-16-2011, 09:21 AM
Sorry, out of touch with the acronyms... Thanks

Damage
Over
Time


If there must be a change, I'd rather see the spell adjusted to 1d6+wis modifier.
Great idea!
I'm not in favor of changing it at all, but if I was, this is probably the most palatable choice, IMO.

justagame
09-16-2011, 09:22 AM
Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.


Says who? Before WOW and clones, divines were never meant to be heal-mashers. They certainly never were in pen & paper -- they always had fewer damaging spells than arcanes, but the ones they had were powerful (that's straight out of the phb). Now, as we all know, DDO has deviated from DnD in far too many ways to count, that's still not a justification to strip away a meaningful source of dps from them at the same time that arcanes are being boosted through the roof.

And as to no class being able to do everything? Well, then let's get rid of WF arcanes while we're at it, and every other build that's been able to roll dps, survivability, and healing (including umd) all into one.

danotmano1998
09-16-2011, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Shade
Tho again as I said about Divine punishment:
No..
Just no.
Divines are not meant to have this kind of UNRESISTALBE DPS. Giving everything to one class just results in unbalance and unfun.

Bosses aren't meant to have 50 thousand hit points either...
Just saying...

licho
09-16-2011, 09:45 AM
I have two issues with this.

1. In the case of boss mobs with ultra high fort saves, we'll be back in the same place of dump stat casters doing the same damage as non-dump stat casters.

2. The save mechanic results in a hard threshold where if you can't hit some number... then don't bother. This makes the mid-level wis builds, or the not-yet-geared wis builds



The current Saves values are not given, in the same way as hitpoints, its just a number which could be switched with every update. So its perfect possible to adjust them so:
- well geared caster will hit without save in 50% on normal at level.
- Doing raid on elite will demand toon geared for cap to hit this 50%.
- Every bit of extra dc will translate into extra 5% of dmg probability.

The only problem is that programist should know the actual values of DC achievable by toons. (hehe)

The only drawback is that:
- Dump wis FvS will have 50% of effect all the time.
- Toon at level joining raid on elite willl have less to contribute.

EvilI
09-16-2011, 09:54 AM
Shade is correct. Only Barbarians should be attempting to do damage during quests and Divine casters should just quietly heal them.

Kudos for saying what I was only thiniking.

alexp80
09-16-2011, 09:55 AM
A) You math is ultra wrong and purposely biased - it supports your position and purposely leaves out factors to make your arguement look good, while including every factor on the other end.
Your math is purposely missing common geared favored souls have, yet you compared it to an absolutely 100% maxxed out barbarian.

B) Hugest one: DoTs are absolute (and unresistable). They are easy to maintain. Melee DPS is ULTRA VARIABLE and can be reduced by thousands of factors, very rarely will you maintain your absolute maximum as you might in the DPS challenge where you get as many attempts as you want.

Lord of Blades is a great example:
DoTs can be applied 100% of the time - even when he leaves the arena, he happens to be gone exactly just under the duration of the dot, so it keeps ticking. Melee is only possible for limited bursts.

And I could post some screenshots of my favored soul doing 2000 damage light tics to proove your math is wrong, but its so incredibly wrong that I don't care too. All i can say is, let someone else more qualfied do it, or work harder and be more careful in your calculations next time. Here is a hint of some major factors ignored tho: Lore set. PrE.

I think, Shade, to have a deeper understanding of what you are talking about, that you have to roll a fvs and try it yourself.

It seems to me that you really don't know what the divines do during a boss fight, the dangers, the troubles, the difficulties they have to overcome to grant the success to the group.

I play regulary a barb, a fvs and a wiz, all epic geared and with a lot of fun. I know that each role has to fullfill and I can assure you that a divine can't sustain the dot like you think, even in relaxing raids.

A trip by Velah in the wrong moment? you loose the stack. Unexpected danger to any party member? you loose the stack... and so on. Divines are not auto attack barbs. They have no time to waste, they keep healing, scroll healing, using clickies, spamming dots, some also doing melee, and so on.

Viisari
09-16-2011, 09:58 AM
- Dump wis FvS will have 50% of effect all the time.


How is this a bad thing? Why should a dumb casting stat melee divine be as effective with spells a multi-TR evoker with all gear and +4 tome for his casting stat? In fact, this is one of the reasons dots are broken atm, because that's how the situation is right now.

Qezuzu
09-16-2011, 09:59 AM
Rotating Black Dragon Bolt, Polar Ray, Niac's Biting Cold, Acid Blast SLA, Melf's SLA, Acid Rain, Burning Blood, and Acid Curse (my rotation got messed up with Black Dragon bolt, but these are what I use), with Eardweller active, my first life Sorc can dramatically out-DPS even extremely well geared melees. At a range, out of (most) danger, with a wimpy ~390 HP.

I would think giving Raid bosses Elemental absorbtions would fix this. Resistance won't just cut it when casters are pumping out +1k hits. This includes light damage.

But if so, cut down on their HP, lest the fights get even longer...

alexp80
09-16-2011, 10:11 AM
How is this a bad thing? Why should a dumb casting stat melee divine be as effective with spells a multi-TR evoker with all gear and +4 tome for his casting stat? In fact, this is one of the reasons dots are broken atm, because that's how the situation is right now.

sure, and also the healing spells should be affected too!

/sarcasm off

the multi-Tr evoker, as far as I know, has: destruction, implosion, effective bb, searing light...

I don't see where is the problem, really.
Why a melee fvs with casting dump stat (it's a divine focused to dmg, a divine warrior) should not use the dmg spells at full power

Viisari
09-16-2011, 10:19 AM
sure, and also the healing spells should be affected too!

/sarcasm off

the multi-Tr evoker, as far as I know, has: destruction, implosion, effective bb, searing light...

I don't see where is the problem, really.
Why a melee fvs with casting dump stat (it's a divine focused to dmg, a divine warrior) should not use the dmg spells at full power

Because he's chosen to focus on meleeing rather than casting. Simple, yes? Other than ray spells, dots are pretty much the only damaging spells in the game that perform as well on a caster as they do on a dump casting stat caster, and unlike ray spells, they're extremely good sustained dps. They are the exception to the rule that unless you focus on casting, you're bad at it.

And as far as damage goes, healing spells actually ARE affected by dumping your casting stat.

alexp80
09-16-2011, 10:25 AM
Because he's chosen to focus on meleeing and casting. Simple, yes? Other than ray spells, dots are pretty much the only damaging spells in the game that perform as well on a caster as they do on a dump casting stat caster, and unlike ray spells, they're extremely good sustained dps. They are the exception to the rule that unless you focus on casting, you're bad at it.

And as far as damage goes, healing spells actually ARE affected by dumping your casting stat.

I still don't get your point.

power word kill has a save? no
symbol of death? neither (and is a much more casting related imho than raw dmg)
enervation? no
....

have you ever played a melee fvs? i suppose you don't. cause you will know that the dps output with dots is NOT gamebreaking.
BB are far more powerful and gamebreaking, just like fw was. Call the nerf bat on them

licho
09-16-2011, 10:28 AM
I would think giving Raid bosses Elemental absorbtions would fix this. Resistance won't just cut it when casters are pumping out +1k hits. This includes light damage.
[/I]

Its not best solucion, since the problem of DoTs is that once stacked they are 3x more effective than mix of other spells. So giving boss reducion/absorbcion will not change the state where DoTs>>>any other spells.

Giving save for half dmg will fix situacion since it will kick them back only 1,5x dmg of normal spells.
WHich is still better but lets say we r buying time.

Nevertheless: join trade of reducing caster dmg output and lowering HP of enemies is very fair. Lets do this.

gloopygloop
09-16-2011, 10:50 AM
And as far as damage goes, healing spells actually ARE affected by dumping your casting stat.

My 6 Wis Favored Soul (14 with ship buffs and Concordant Opposition) disagrees with you. He has no trouble keeping parties afloat and his heals hit the party for the exact same damage as if he had a 46+ Wisdom

Viisari
09-16-2011, 04:08 PM
My 6 Wis Favored Soul (14 with ship buffs and Concordant Opposition) disagrees with you. He has no trouble keeping parties afloat and his heals hit the party for the exact same damage as if he had a 46+ Wisdom

You show considerable ignorance to the functions of healing spells and to what was actually said.

All heal spells have a will save in certain circumstances.


I still don't get your point.

power word kill has a save? no
symbol of death? neither (and is a much more casting related imho than raw dmg)
enervation? no
....

have you ever played a melee fvs? i suppose you don't. cause you will know that the dps output with dots is NOT gamebreaking.
BB are far more powerful and gamebreaking, just like fw was. Call the nerf bat on them

PW:K has 240 second cooldown. It's affected by spell resistance.

Symbol of death is also effected by spell resistance, has a long cooldown and is not anywhere on the same level on of usefulness with dots.

Enervation, affected by spell res, and if your casting stat is dumped it's pretty much useless because you'll have to cast it so many times if you want your other spells to land well.

Yes, I have not played a melee fvs, but I have a pretty good idea on how they perform. And even that's irrelevant, because dots as they are are so powerful that they allow people to make "blob builds", ie. build that only focus on having maximum hp and alogn with grabbing empower and maximize. After that they're all about dots. After people start basing their builds on a single spells you know something is wrong.