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View Full Version : Traps; DC's and locations.



AMDarkwolf
08-21-2011, 11:01 AM
Running a tr though one of his pally lives, and I've found that with 1 level of rog, and only the first 4 ranks into his spot/search/disable, At lv 16 I'm still finding traps and disabling them on 1s, in normal or hard. (Elite idk, lv 10-12 range I was starting to lose the ability to find them but still managed to get a few, popped 1 single box the whole time I've been leveling him, basically if i can find the box, i can disarm it)

Now granted I am using the best gear u can for the level(Crafting then +15's from AH) and I usually have GH running, but that's around what, 25-27 skill max.

This really is pathetic. I do not know why you decided that traps had to be so smuckin easy to find/disable, I'm sure it was due to some 'WAHHHHH TRAPS TOO HAAAAAAARD' post or something, but this is ridiculous. Especially with artificer coming, traps need a pass.

I suggest first off, the DC's They need to be improved. For normal and hard runs, the DC should be a randomized(Within 3-5 pts) value that sits somewhere between the max value (at level) a skill can be at without and with items/buffs. So at lv 10, max dd without items should be around 14, and with items, +11's, buffs, around 33, so the possible trap dc range would be 15-32, closer to the lower end for normal, closer to the higher end for elite)

Also, to make the act of finding traps a little more interesting, randomize the location of some of the 'avoidable' traps, to within 30 feet of their actual original location. (Never inside a wall please hehe), which I feel would make spot more valued.

Side note, to all those pure rogues I met during my time leveling who pop boxes. No excuse. None. If you can't be bothered to put some points into your skills, go play something other than a rog. Do us all a favor. A rog is MUCH more than just traps, but there's no excuse to not have trap skills capped AND still do everything else a rog can do. Also shows when you can't be bothered to equip half assed decent items(Even +7's at 15 is fine, just have SOMETHING on)

Dark_Uncle72
08-21-2011, 11:09 AM
Running a tr though one of his pally lives, and I've found that with 1 level of rog, and only the first 4 ranks into his spot/search/disable, At lv 16 I'm still finding traps and disabling them on 1s, in normal or hard. (Elite idk, lv 10-12 range I was starting to lose the ability to find them but still managed to get a few, popped 1 single box the whole time I've been leveling him, basically if i can find the box, i can disarm it)

Now granted I am using the best gear u can for the level(Crafting then +15's from AH) and I usually have GH running, but that's around what, 25-27 skill max.

This really is pathetic. I do not know why you decided that traps had to be so smuckin easy to find/disable, I'm sure it was due to some 'WAHHHHH TRAPS TOO HAAAAAAARD' post or something, but this is ridiculous. Especially with artificer coming, traps need a pass.

I suggest first off, the DC's They need to be improved. For normal and hard runs, the DC should be a randomized(Within 3-5 pts) value that sits somewhere between the max value (at level) a skill can be at without and with items/buffs. So at lv 10, max dd without items should be around 14, and with items, +11's, buffs, around 33, so the possible trap dc range would be 15-32, closer to the lower end for normal, closer to the higher end for elite)

Also, to make the act of finding traps a little more interesting, randomize the location of some of the 'avoidable' traps, to within 30 feet of their actual original location. (Never inside a wall please hehe), which I feel would make spot more valued.

Side note, to all those pure rogues I met during my time leveling who pop boxes. No excuse. None. If you can't be bothered to put some points into your skills, go play something other than a rog. Do us all a favor. A rog is MUCH more than just traps, but there's no excuse to not have trap skills capped AND still do everything else a rog can do. Also shows when you can't be bothered to equip half assed decent items(Even +7's at 15 is fine, just have SOMETHING on)
^^
This, if a character w/ just ONE level of rogue can find 99% of the contented traps in quests..etc.. then WHY for the love of the DDO GODZ can't a 20 Rogue w/ CLASS GRANTED FEATS NOT!!! find traps when it's in their actual build listing...

And yes I'm in full agreement to the point that the traps are far to easy to find and disable even w/ 1 lvl or rogue in them, so a trap pass is needed.

Make all traps random, varied locations are key for the idea of a good quest, and if you can avoid it or live thru it then by all means keep on truckin, you've got the fortitude to live on...

Robai
08-21-2011, 02:18 PM
1) trap location should be random

2) trap DC should be random this way:
x = Spot DC
y = Search DC
z = Disable DC

The sum DC = x + y + z is not random, but it depends on the quest level or difficulty level.
The numbers x,y,z are random.

For example:
- some traps are very hard to Spot, but easy to Search and Disable
- some traps are very hard to Search, but easy to Spot and Disable
- some traps are very hard to Disable, but easy to Spot and Search

3) now let's put additional randomness (maybe this should depend on the quest)
Two random variables:
DC = x + y + z
w = Damage multiplier
They are random, but this way:
- If DC is high then w is low
- If w is high then DC is low

It means that high DC traps are less deadly (i.e. do less damage) than low DC traps (deadly damage, but easy to find and disable).

Feithlin
08-21-2011, 06:39 PM
I'm a TR with a Lit II khopesh and a bunch of tomes and I kill all the monsters: this is really too easy. This is basically the content of you message.
Sure, with 4 ranks, the best gear for your level and fox's pot and GH, you can do traps on norm, and sometimes hard. Now, create a new character, only use the money you earn (and not from previous life or another character), and tell me how it goes.
The game must not be scaled on TRed characters, neither on the assumption of another character giving you thousands of pp.

The hardest part of the design is that a quest should be able to be completed without a rogue, while at the same time, his presence should be desirable.

Randomizing DCs and trap locations, why not. I'm not sure it would bring that much to the game.

Finaly, the specificity of rogues is NOT to disable traps. Disabling traps is a matter of skill, no more. Yes, one rogue level is enough if you have the sufficient skill points: this is not an error, this is how the game is designed.

AMDarkwolf
08-21-2011, 06:52 PM
I'm a TR with a Lit II khopesh and a bunch of tomes and I kill all the monsters: this is really too easy. This is basically the content of you message.
Sure, with 4 ranks, the best gear for your level and fox's pot and GH, you can do traps on norm, and sometimes hard. Now, create a new character, only use the money you earn (and not from previous life or another character), and tell me how it goes.
The game must not be scaled on TRed characters, neither on the assumption of another character giving you thousands of pp.

The hardest part of the design is that a quest should be able to be completed without a rogue, while at the same time, his presence should be desirable.

Randomizing DCs and trap locations, why not. I'm not sure it would bring that much to the game.

Finaly, the specificity of rogues is NOT to disable traps. Disabling traps is a matter of skill, no more. Yes, one rogue level is enough if you have the sufficient skill points: this is not an error, this is how the game is designed.

Very bad analogy, very very bad.

First off, a rog(pure or heavy splash) will have plenty in his disable, etc, to not have an issue. Basically my '4 ranks' with items is equal to a rog with full ranks and no items.

I know this is difficult for some to understand, but its not at all like the example u opened with, since a TR rog dont get instant access to max skills. (He has a few points more than the fresh rog, but not the difference between say a 1st run lv 12 fighter and a TR fighter with greensteels)

And no rogs are not 'just for traps' but what would you say to the healer who doesn't heal. Ever. Or the bard who never sings/buffs. Ever. Or the wizard who doesn't cast. Ever. I think the 3 examples I just said here(and the many I have not said) might hammer home the point I was making.

Jay203
08-21-2011, 11:11 PM
meh, just make DC higher and lower the dc based on how many rogue/arty lvls are on the disabler

Feithlin
08-22-2011, 12:50 AM
First off, a rog(pure or heavy splash) will have plenty in his disable, etc, to not have an issue. Basically my '4 ranks' with items is equal to a rog with full ranks and no items.

I know this is difficult for some to understand, but its not at all like the example u opened with, since a TR rog dont get instant access to max skills. (He has a few points more than the fresh rog, but not the difference between say a 1st run lv 12 fighter and a TR fighter with greensteels)


In my own experience (a character with 4 ranks too, and a base Int of 12), it required me not only the ideal gear for my level, but also very soon fox pots (then Int item) and heroism pots (then GH). Sure, I was still able to disable traps in Coal norm, but I needed all these buffs to find the box.
Now look at a 1st character. He usually has an item 2 or 4 levels lower than ideal, simply because since the introduction of cannith crafting, most of these items are deconstructed, or when they are sold, the cost is often way above what a 1st character can afford. So if we compare at level 11 for example, he will have 10 more ranks, but -2 or -4 from basic gear. Since they will usually don't use consumables (either because they don't need it, or simply because they don't carry it), they loose another -4 from the absence of gh, and perhaps -1 because they only have a subpar Int item. In the end, they're only 4 or 6 points above you for search, a bit less for DD if they don't carry the best tools.
But a pure beginning rogue should be able to disable elite traps, even without the best gear. So what? If norm and hard are higher than what they are, how would he be able to disable them?
It's doable for a twinked character to disable traps on norm, sometimes on hard. Nice, good for xp, but nothing more. The most important traps to disable are on elite, and those, you will most probably not be able to disable them at level.
All this results from the fact that skill ranks only play a limited part to the total you can achieve. It's a significant part, a necessary part if you aim for the max, but still an inferior part compared to gear and buffs.
Lastly, you will see a difference between the oldest quests and the newest ones. The later usually have higher DCs. All in all, I don't there is any need to change them. Enjoy your roguish wannabee experience, but on elite, you will prefer to rely on a true disabler, like anybody else.