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maddmatt70
08-20-2011, 11:06 PM
Any chance you can upgrade the difficulty for the two raids or at least one of the raids on epic. The raids appear far too easy. Resources are easy to come by in game so if I have to use some resources shrug. I would love a real challenge. I actually want to fail at attempts in completing a raid for the first time for a few weeks that would be awesome. The old abbot and Titan were both great - give us one of those raids. The game is much too easy on epic.

Phalcon
08-20-2011, 11:12 PM
Any chance you can upgrade the difficulty for the two raids or at least one of the raids on epic. The raids appear far too easy. Resources are easy to come by in game so if I have to use some resources shrug. I would love a real challenge. I actually want to fail at attempts in completing a raid for the first time for a few weeks that would be awesome. The old abbot and Titan were both great - give us one of those raids. The game is much too easy on epic.


Did you run the raids at all? I think its kinda silly to say somethings too easy if you haven't done it but maybe that's just me.

SableShadow
08-20-2011, 11:17 PM
The old abbot and Titan were both great

Bug house broken = great?

The biggest challenge in Titan was getting it off the damn pillar stumps; the biggest challenge in Abbot was sorting a tile room that was tested only on Turbine's lan.

maddmatt70
08-20-2011, 11:22 PM
Did you run the raids at all? I think its kinda silly to say somethings too easy if you haven't done it but maybe that's just me.

Yeah you just want it easy peasy whereas I want to get my butt kicked. Beating a raid on the first attempt or two is a letdown.

kailiea
08-20-2011, 11:28 PM
I can guarantee that the new raids will test your reflexes and co ordination/ teamwork on elite/epic.

Just because Revenants rocked the raids doesn't mean they are easy and doesn't mean we didn't wipe once or twice figuring out some stuff. I think these are some of the most balanced raids Turbine has done in a while because they require a wider range of classes be utilized to make things easier.

We figured out the puzzles in epic Artificer on our second run but even knowing that little tidbit of information, one still requires some serious reflexes to not die.

I think the raids as they stand now (on epic/elite) will remain challenging to the hard core guilds for some time

Alkindus
08-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Well.. I did it today twice with Shade & the rest. We had solid players there and still failed against epic. Lord of blades seems perfectly balanced atleast for epic. The end boss is a a friggin beast. Can hit for 600+, does massive aoe damage, and seems to have a pretty reasonable amt of hp. Pile that on with the Hp debuffs and the dogs he has that spit grease that does about 150-200 a pop and you got yourself one hell of a challenge. Seems about right to me for an epic boss.

Phalcon
08-20-2011, 11:39 PM
Yeah you just want it easy peasy whereas I want to get my butt kicked. Beating a raid on the first attempt or two is a letdown.


I want things easy peasy?

If you want to get your "butt kicked" I'd suggest go try the raids on Elite/Epic :)

If you still think they are still too easy then by all means let me have it, but putting up a post about how the new raids are too easy when you haven't even ran them is a bit ironic don't you think?

kailiea
08-20-2011, 11:42 PM
Titan wasn't beat day 1 because when it was released you couldn't even get to the flagging quests.
The keys did not drop when it first came out and you could not pick the doors to progress.

Then when everyone did manage to get in the raid, the Titan itself had some major pathing issues.

Abbott was beat day one if I remember correctly by brute forcing it and was made unplayable by removing the ability to brute force it. It went through several iterations after that to make it playable.....

NeutronStar
08-21-2011, 12:02 AM
Yeah you just want it easy peasy whereas I want to get my butt kicked. Beating a raid on the first attempt or two is a letdown.

I noticed you didn't actually answer Phalcon's question.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 12:23 AM
I noticed you didn't actually answer Phalcon's question.

Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..

Indoran
08-21-2011, 12:28 AM
Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..

dude... I have seen you run epics, I know you know your stuff.... but dont talk without knowing... go run the raids or wait until you run it to start clamoring for an "upgrade"

If not its the same as a doom thread just the opposite way....

Phalcon
08-21-2011, 12:40 AM
Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..

Ok so out of all these multiple groups that completed the raids, how many of them said the raids were easy? Then out of all the groups that said it was easy what difficulty was it ran on?

If it's too easy then prove it to us all. Actions speak louder then words.

Grenada
08-21-2011, 12:47 AM
Ok so out of all these multiple groups that completed the raids, how many of them said the raids were easy? Then out of all the groups that said it was easy what difficulty was it ran on?

These (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336475) guys said it wasn't as easy as you would think:


I will say this: Yes we did short man it. However this raid is a beast. It is unforgiving on Elite/Epic. This is the hardest quest in the game by a long shot period. It will be interesting to see how groups end up running this without using pots.


Anyone that thinks this raids a joke bc it got short manned is going to be upset when this goes live heh.

Edit: they ran this quest on epic then elite.

D-molisher
08-21-2011, 12:52 AM
Kudos to you for 7 manning an epic raid, with only 33 deaths.
But if you can 7 man a raid that should be balanced for 12 peops ( as lvl 25) - then its way too easy.
Here i thought epic raids should be for the best off the best & actually give them a challenge ... i guess i was wrong.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336475

Riggs
08-21-2011, 01:33 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?

Phalcon
08-21-2011, 01:46 AM
Kudos to you for 7 manning an epic raid, with only 33 deaths.
But if you can 7 man a raid that should be balanced for 12 peops ( as lvl 25) - then its way too easy.
You can't judge a raids difficulty based off of 1 groups completion... If you were to solo a TOD elite would that mean that the raid was too easy? I didn't think so.

Here i thought epic raids should be for the best off the best & actually give them a challenge ... i guess i was wrong.

Okay so I'm going to take a wild guess and say you probably didn't run the raid on Elite or Epic either. With that said how can you think that it wasn't a challenge?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336475

Replies in Red.

When it comes down to it, Everyone had the chance to beat the raid today, and many tried. 1 group beat it on Epic and now its too easy in everyones minds even though 99% of people out there haven't even tried it.

Phalcon
08-21-2011, 01:52 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?

It's all about tactics and learning the boss's attack sequences and such. He does strike really hard though so having some high HP is always a plus. :)

Ovrad
08-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

Oh don't worry, on normal it's "only" 450-500. :D


...oh the subjet, I'm kinda wondering if scaling is working properly, since the difference between epic and norm doesn't seem that huge

jakeelala
08-21-2011, 01:56 AM
i think it's sort of ridiculous for Matt to suggest changing something he's never experienced first hand.

I also think it's ridicluous that you 7 manned an Epic raid in 2 days from it coming out.

However it's well known that what Revenents do is short man extremely hard raids with a high level of success, resources be darned.

Us losers have to accept that those guys are exceptionally good at beating ridiculous raids with small numbers. In some ways it might even be an advantage to have less people to heal, coordinate, buff, instruct etc.

I think at the end of the day this might actually be a positive thing: you can take the best equipment in the game and give it to lots of hard core players, but only the best are actually going to do ridiculous things like TOD elite 4 man or beat the new Epic raid right away.

Shade tried it with a full group and failed, more than once. If Shade and a group of end game geared players can fail multiple times, this raid IS NOT too easy.

Those of you who are saying it is are just all sour grapes because you and your buddies aren't pulling off what Rev did. Either test on Lam or wait till live to bellyache I say.

Jaid314
08-21-2011, 02:09 AM
you know, i hear olympic sprinters can sprint 100 meters in less than 10 seconds. therefore, that is obviously a super-easy task. i think i'm going to go outside now and just run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds right now in fact! surely the fact that they have vastly more training, preparation, natural ability, physical capability, etc, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they can sprint 100 meters in less than 10 seconds. nope, it's clearly just a really easy thing to do! obviously, if olympic level sprinters can do that, everyone else can replicate the same experience trivially! i don't know why they even give those people medals for such an easy thing to do! clearly the olympics are too easy, and they need to be made harder! if that's all they can do, clearly the olympics have been using the easy button too much, and the difficulty needs to be scale up. they should require that you run the 100 meter dash in under 5 seconds to make it more challenging, that sounds soooooo much more reasonable. [/sarcasm]

seriously. a group of well-known, highly skilled players, likely with top-end gear, who know each other well and work together often, said that it was not an easy raid.

it sounds to me (based on those facts), that it might just not be an easy raid. color me crazy, but i just can't help but feel that if people who are the very top tier of the game say "wow, that was a real challenge", then it just might actually not be a total cakewalk.

RandomKeypress
08-21-2011, 02:09 AM
I would also like to point out that mana pots are essentially free on Lammania - we don't have a pot-chugging total for those epic and elite completions, but from what little I've seen, but raids can be won just by protecting the healers and having the healers chug pots until everything is dead. That isn't a successful long-term strategy for live.

How would you change the raids so that they couldn't be beaten on the first day and yet still be beaten at all. The pre-raid stuff does not give next-tier gear and the raids don't require it. If you have a dedicated group of end-game players, they're going to beat the raid. You could throw in ultra-complex boss-battles with convoluted dealing strategies (EQ, WoW etc.), but that isn't DDO.

lekkus
08-21-2011, 02:12 AM
We went in there as well with 5 but with a different setup then Revenants (gz). We failed the second time (first time we all crashed), and by then it was already done for the first time. Very nice raid tactics? I don't know, 5 archeons and wings for the win. 30 minutes after the raid was open on Lamannia it was beat. That sounds indeed a bit too easy. Make him at least resistant to light damage ;)


The second raid.. hm no idea. We didn't come that far as a few had to log but I am looking forward to that. Sounds as great fun if I have to believe the threads :)

Xyfiel
08-21-2011, 03:10 AM
If the raid is 7 manned within hours of coming out, that means in a few months it will be soloed or 2 manned. I thought all the epic geared best of the best wanted something challenging. I don't need to play the raid to see it won't be challenging to the top players soon.

"The raid is very difficult, but we beat it in an hour" isn't ironic to you? How long did it take for someone to solo Vod and Tod? Those are achievements, this is nothing but same old difficulty of other epic raids. The only reason it feels more difficult is because it is new and you have not learned how to best complete it. That will come with time, just like every other quest in DDO.

jakeelala
08-21-2011, 03:23 AM
If the raid is 7 manned within hours of coming out, that means in a few months it will be soloed or 2 manned. I thought all the epic geared best of the best wanted something challenging. I don't need to play the raid to see it won't be challenging to the top players soon.

"The raid is very difficult, but we beat it in an hour" isn't ironic to you? How long did it take for someone to solo Vod and Tod? Those are achievements, this is nothing but same old difficulty of other epic raids. The only reason it feels more difficult is because it is new and you have not learned how to best complete it. That will come with time, just like every other quest in DDO.

just to reiterate again: pots are free on lama. this is not normal circumstances. Solo'd and short man raids are not the norm on live, even the easy ones. Only DQ is really an exception to that rule for people trying to get base items.

Dark-Star
08-21-2011, 03:56 AM
Taking nothing away from the accomplishment, we did have the luxury of pots (as did everyone else that tried the raids today), and that will be a definite difference between Lamania and live.

We also had the advantage of having played together a lot lately, often in a speed run atmosphere where things are happening very very fast, so being able to coordinate teamwork under pressure was a huge key to victory.

I have no doubt other players will find early success as well, but there will be many others that struggle for a long time with the raids - at all difficulty settings. To increase difficulty without broader player feedback is a mistake in my opinion. Let these raids be run on live where there will be a reasonable resource constraint and I wouldn't be surpised if there is a movement to decrease difficulty.

Boss hit points are so inflated now that raids like ToD elite will see very few completions simply due to the strain it willl put on resources.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
08-21-2011, 04:04 AM
Any chance you can upgrade the difficulty for the two raids or at least one of the raids on epic. The raids appear far too easy. Resources are easy to come by in game so if I have to use some resources shrug. I would love a real challenge. I actually want to fail at attempts in completing a raid for the first time for a few weeks that would be awesome. The old abbot and Titan were both great - give us one of those raids. The game is much too easy on epic.

You shouldn't even be allowed to POST in the Lammania Discussion area, none the less head a thread recommending Turbine change the difficulty of a new raid.

Turbine is not going to craft a raid for you. If you think you "beat DDO", go play another game.

Morosy
08-21-2011, 04:49 AM
Kudos to you for 7 manning an epic raid, with only 33 deaths.
But if you can 7 man a raid that should be balanced for 12 peops ( as lvl 25) - then its way too easy.
Here i thought epic raids should be for the best off the best & actually give them a challenge ... i guess i was wrong.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336475

Nah, 1 Revenants = 4 normal people, so it's pretty balanced :p

Aaxeyu
08-21-2011, 05:17 AM
Very dissapointing to see them completed so quickly. Far too easy.

Absolute-Omniscience
08-21-2011, 06:37 AM
Very dissapointing to see them completed so quickly. Far too easy.

This.

No matter how many pots you used, it's way too easy if it's completed within hours of release.

Either make it harder, or limit the use of SP potion. Preferably both.

FengXian
08-21-2011, 06:52 AM
The funny thing is that if these guys' scream for upgrade will be seconded by the devs, they'll prolly start asking for nerf complaining it's too hard when it goes live :rolleyes:

Revenants and such + infinite pots = it's ok to underman a new raid, and doesn't mean it's easy. Plus you can't really expect uber-over9k-hard content, even an epic raid has to be beatable by very good, well geared, still not necessarily uber players.

insaneuou
08-21-2011, 07:09 AM
ALl you uberminded ppl asked for challenging raids, devs gave it- 2 raids. They might have been beaten on day1 but that are hard, fun and challenging. What do u expect ? raids which are so challenging, to crack them after six months?

Epitome
08-21-2011, 07:42 AM
***SOME SMALL SPOILERS***

On live resource management at Elite/Epic difficulties (of which I didn't see very much of a difference) will be the biggest challenge. Having a full raid group may assist in this or detract depending on the HP, self sufficiency skills and most importantly twitch and positioning skills of the players themselves.

Master Artificer almost requires having a balanced raid group, else-wise be prepared to do major mnemonic keg stands while trying to stay alive. One of the bosses during a 2 boss fight is best handled with melee that doesn't rely too much on arcane/divine buffs for their DPS (or a piping hot ranged ranger). One of the bosses' rune arm charge hits that he spits out very very frequently is very brutal requiring targets to have ~650+ hp (lack of some gear on lama made this hard to achieve for some of us, at least my toons that completed it) but these shots can be dodged again putting tremendous focus on player skill. The environmental curve balls tossed at groups after the first few waves of mobs will be extremely challenging as well (although patterns exist that do not seem to randomize or change each new raid instance you do, yet the patterns are more difficult on higher difficulties).

Lord of Blades reminds me of some challenging 6 man group action of something like warhammer online's top end dungeons in that you can't sit and tank & spank mobs. The combination of the boss's abilities and DPS and some of this cronies floor aoe's (nasty dog grease/dmg puddle that without fom you don't want to step into on epic or you will fall over very quickly) requires the group stays very alert.

Some of us are pondering how to do this in a conservative manner regarding resource use when it goes live. Doing so will increase what I believe will be the new most challenging fights in the game.

Another challenge is doing these raids with this piping hot group UI. Always a joy to be the lone melee with their health bar cut off from the divines in the raid group. I will recommend that as a melee you do not rely too much on high end silver flame pots, in both encounters it will lead to a quick death.

EatSmart
08-21-2011, 08:01 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?




*SPOILER BELOW*






Its complicated by the lord of blades debuffing the target with a stacking debuff called touch of the mournlands that lowers the target's %HPs. Tanks where going from max hps 1k+ down to max hps <500 after stacking applications. We've not yet worked out if there's a counter to this beyond swapping tanks for a bit to let the debuff stack expire. (timer is 1:15-1:20 ish i think)

Holding off my own judgement on the challenge until we know more about the raid mechanics, but it seems pretty solid.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 08:40 AM
Some of you guys have forgotten about this game's history. There was a whole group of people who enjoyed trying to beat the titan. They failed numerous times, but they really enjoyed getting together as a group and trying something out whether it worked or not was almost immaterial. The titan assumed an almost mythical stature. It is no coincidence that many of these people that tried to beat the titan no longer play DDO because DDO quite frankly has taken the easy road.

Some of these people will come back to check out these new raids and some of the newer people to DDO who would enjoy a challenge will also try the new raids. When groups beat the raids on the first day and starting farming them for gear these people will just think the game is the same old easy. Since Turbine is releasing two raids, this is a great opportunity to make one of the raids incredibly difficult and not just from a resource standpoint which is not really that difficult when all is said and done because I can alway buy and farm mana pots, but truely difficult.

Lleren
08-21-2011, 08:48 AM
I think balancing a Raid for the "best of the best" of players would be a mistake. Those players can beat pretty much anything the devs put out, if its not broken in some way.

Also, I really don't want to start encouraging folks to put even more points into Con so they can survive these Raids. It is hard enough to get new player's characters over 400 hit points reliably. Raising the bar on hitpoints is getting silly.

Well at least we can TR now, if someones build gets treated like a red headed stepchild in these new Raids.

Lifespawn
08-21-2011, 09:09 AM
Titan wasn't beat day 1 because when it was released you couldn't even get to the flagging quests.
The keys did not drop when it first came out and you could not pick the doors to progress.

Then when everyone did manage to get in the raid, the Titan itself had some major pathing issues.

Abbott was beat day one if I remember correctly by brute forcing it and was made unplayable by removing the ability to brute force it. It went through several iterations after that to make it playable.....

it was beaten after the brute force was taken away on sarlona before they made the easy changes where people run it all the time

i do hope the epic raid is some kind of challenge even tho it was beaten on lama it could have taken tons of store bought mana pots that wouldn't be realistic on live

Deathdefy
08-21-2011, 09:26 AM
I honestly think they sound good; I would have been stunned had Revenants not beaten them on epic within the day they were released, short of very hard / bugged puzzles. Any dps / reasonably intuitive strategy requiring raid should have been beaten by them to be remotely accessible by the rest of the player base. For the record, the requirements to deal with the spoiler revealed earlier are what I hope is the first step in a great direction toward requiring fewer tank and spank moments in raids.

Revenants play their toons very well, are geared almost literally perfectly for their classes, and are a good in-game communicationy lot, and have a bunch of TRs on top of this.

Given they had a LOT of deaths, (and potentially drought-inducing mana pot ingestion?), the LoB raid at least sounds darn hard - shortmanned or not.

My money's on threads calling for nerfs in the future.

FengXian
08-21-2011, 09:27 AM
Some of you guys have forgotten about this game's history. There was a whole group of people who enjoyed trying to beat the titan. They failed numerous times, but they really enjoyed getting together as a group and trying something out whether it worked or not was almost immaterial. The titan assumed an almost mythical stature. It is no coincidence that many of these people that tried to beat the titan no longer play DDO because DDO quite frankly has taken the easy road.

Some of these people will come back to check out these new raids and some of the newer people to DDO who would enjoy a challenge will also try the new raids. When groups beat the raids on the first day and starting farming them for gear these people will just think the game is the same old easy. Since Turbine is releasing two raids, this is a great opportunity to make one of the raids incredibly difficult and not just from a resource standpoint which is not really that difficult when all is said and done because I can alway buy and farm mana pots, but truely difficult.

I see your point, but as many already said you can't balance a raid just for the top players. Plus it looks like these raids do require some skill. I don't really think the devs have ignored the players' requests for a tougher and different from "tank'n'spank" challenge. But the good players WILL beat it, and this happening on day 1 means nearly nothing. How long do you think it can take to figure out a puzzle or a strategy to beat a boss? Creating something completely new, so new that the vets will have a hard time figuring it out, is kinda impossible without unbalancing the game/quest.
I do see the game evolving, chrono was already somehow more varied compared to previous stuff, and I think LoB and MA will likely be the next step. Not the last tho, evolution comes gradually :)

Epitome
08-21-2011, 09:29 AM
This:)


i do hope the epic raid is some kind of challenge even tho it was beaten on lama it could have taken tons of store bought mana pots that wouldn't be realistic on live

Had to have my stomach pumped after the raid...waiting for turbine to release an ioun stone that has an IV drip bag of major mnemonics, but on live it would be a different story.

azrael4h
08-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Some of you guys have forgotten about this game's history. There was a whole group of people who enjoyed trying to beat the titan. They failed numerous times, but they really enjoyed getting together as a group and trying something out whether it worked or not was almost immaterial. The titan assumed an almost mythical stature. It is no coincidence that many of these people that tried to beat the titan no longer play DDO because DDO quite frankly has taken the easy road.


So you mean that two years with no content in a game that was in an obvious death spiral had no effect on people leaving. Instead it was the devs not listening to exactly two people (you and shade) and building the entire game around the whims of those two people.

I'd mock you but the challenge is gone.

Oh, didn't notice this because I hit this thread first, but even Shade considered some aspects of the LoB raid difficult, and suggested toning them down. So you are so very alone.

Absolute-Omniscience
08-21-2011, 09:43 AM
I see your point, but as many already said you can't balance a raid just for the top players.

On elite / epic difficulty you can... And should.

And easiest way to do it?

Limit the amount of SP potions you cna use on elite / epic to like 1-5. Done, solved, and the game actually has some challange again.

azrael4h
08-21-2011, 09:55 AM
On elite / epic difficulty you can... And should.

And easiest way to do it?

Limit the amount of SP potions you cna use on elite / epic to like 1-5. Done, solved, and the game actually has some challange again.

Remove sp pots from the store and reduce drop rates considerably on regular ones. Done. When they become an actual limited resource, instead of infinite, they will cease to cause balance issues.

Don't think that'd happen, ever, but still needs to be done.

Epitome
08-21-2011, 09:57 AM
Remove sp pots from the store and reduce drop rates considerably on regular ones. Done. When they become an actual limited resource, instead of infinite, they will cease to cause balance issues.

Don't think that'd happen, ever, but still needs to be done.

People don't do this on live, at least they shouldn't unless they are wealthy or insane.

azrael4h
08-21-2011, 10:02 AM
People don't do this on live, at least they shouldn't unless they are wealthy or insane.

I know some people who are certifiable. ;)

BruceTheHoon
08-21-2011, 10:14 AM
A bit late, but what can I do. I believe the raid was 8 manned. The party list still doesn't show the bottom 2 players - in this case the bottom one.

More on topic: if the best of the best say that it's the hardest raid after completing it, I tend to believe them more than someone who didn't complete it.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 10:36 AM
A bit late, but what can I do. I believe the raid was 8 manned. The party list still doesn't show the bottom 2 players - in this case the bottom one.

More on topic: if the best of the best say that it's the hardest raid after completing it, I tend to believe them more than someone who didn't complete it.

I bet you at least 6 different groups on my server of Khyber beat 1 or both of these raids on the first day. Best my **..

xTethx
08-21-2011, 10:39 AM
A bit late, but what can I do. I believe the raid was 8 manned. The party list still doesn't show the bottom 2 players - in this case the bottom one.

More on topic: if the best of the best say that it's the hardest raid after completing it, I tend to believe them more than someone who didn't complete it.

I dont have the screenies in front of me, but I believe there were 10 guildies in Lord of Blades, 2 of them had to go afk and piked :) The other 1 that was missing ddoored because of 1 of our guildies bright strategy of going straight down instead of killing trash :)

For the master artificer there were 8 people in group. All 8 were there and contributing, I believe.

Cant wait to see ya run these raids on epic Norg, you will have some fun for sure man ;)

xTethx
08-21-2011, 10:42 AM
I bet you at least 6 different groups on my server of Khyber beat 1 or both of these raids on the first day. Best my **..

And I'll bet you none of them did it on elite or epic. :)

wootvenu
08-21-2011, 10:44 AM
Some of you guys have forgotten about this game's history. There was a whole group of people who enjoyed trying to beat the titan. They failed numerous times, but they really enjoyed getting together as a group and trying something out whether it worked or not was almost immaterial. The titan assumed an almost mythical stature. It is no coincidence that many of these people that tried to beat the titan no longer play DDO because DDO quite frankly has taken the easy road.

Some of these people will come back to check out these new raids and some of the newer people to DDO who would enjoy a challenge will also try the new raids. When groups beat the raids on the first day and starting farming them for gear these people will just think the game is the same old easy. Since Turbine is releasing two raids, this is a great opportunity to make one of the raids incredibly difficult and not just from a resource standpoint which is not really that difficult when all is said and done because I can alway buy and farm mana pots, but truely difficult.

I agree and understand but unfortunately Turbine has to sell the pack to new players, moderate and uber players. So, a balanced fun, a bit challenging and easy (in parts) is essential.

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 10:44 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?

MOAR HP!!!!!! HJEAL MEH!!!!!!!

Gotta love Turbine :) They give us an ubber-boss who's extremely difficult to melee yet can be DOT'd just fine.

Epitome
08-21-2011, 10:47 AM
Gotta love Turbine :) They give us an ubber-boss who's extremely difficult to melee yet can be DOT'd just fine.

I don't want to spoil anything but this is not true regarding DOTs, hence the high recommendation to take a good mix of classes into this raid.

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 10:52 AM
. . . or limit the use of SP potion. Preferably both.

This.

SisAmethyst
08-21-2011, 10:53 AM
While I agree that it looks to easy if it can beat so fast on Lama we shouldn't forget that the resources available on Lama are much cheaper and easier to come by. Best SP pots someone for a couple of free TP? I am pretty sure your healer will not burn through hundreds of pots on life as easy as he will do on Lama where you not care about the resource.

Also as about the short manning there may apply some scaling. I know Epics aren't supposed to scale in difficulty but I wouldn't be surprised if the Devs changed this for this raid in U11.

I haven't run the raids yet either but I would be careful to judge its difficulty just from the point that others where able to do so.

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 10:56 AM
I don't want to spoil anything but this is not true regarding DOTs, hence the high recommendation to take a good mix of classes into this raid.

Quoting your guildie:


Best to just dp him up even tho it does reduced damage.

So DOTs do reduced damage, still sounds like it's more SP efficient to DOT and kite than try to hjeal melees though that insanity.

Epitome
08-21-2011, 11:00 AM
Quoting your guildie:



So DOTs do reduced damage, still sounds like it's more SP efficient to DOT and kite than try to hjeal melees though that insanity.

He was referring to a different boss than me, you'll see when you run Master Artificer on any difficulty regarding a certain boss and DOTs.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 11:02 AM
And I'll bet you none of them did it on elite or epic. :)

Yes on elite or epic.. you really do not know Khyber whatsover..

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 11:04 AM
He was referring to a different boss than me, you'll see when you run Master Artificer on any difficulty regarding a certain boss and DOTs.

Got it, I'm going off of Shade's report from the LoB. Since you've actually fought him you tell me . . . is there any point in meleeing the LoB?

kailiea
08-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Quoting your guildie:



So DOTs do reduced damage, still sounds like it's more SP efficient to DOT and kite than try to hjeal melees though that insanity.


You would be incorrect to assume that....If you missed Teths other quote in another thread he also used 250 store pots for the day ;/

Not really that efficient if you ask me. Honestly I really think people should bring a good mix of toons into these raids and actually run them before jumping to conclusions.

kailiea
08-21-2011, 11:06 AM
Got it, I'm going off of Shade's report from the LoB. Since you've actually fought him you tell me . . . is there any point in meleeing the LoB?

And give out our strats before game day... No Deal

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 11:09 AM
Not really that efficient if you ask me. Honestly I really think people should bring a good mix of toons into these raids and actually run them before jumping to conclusions.

The balanced party (Shade's groups) failed . . . the party of almost all FvS succeeded. I know it's the pilot and not the plane, but still . . .

xTethx
08-21-2011, 11:10 AM
Yes on elite or epic.. you really do not know Khyber whatsover..

I lol'ed. Nut up, prove me wrong, and post a screenie. And I dont really wanna hear "This raid was a joke so we didnt take a screenie."

Gratan
08-21-2011, 11:14 AM
It didnt take soo long to beat the titan raid because the mobs were so hard to kill. It was because the preraid and raid were big puzzles to be figured out. Any raid that is just fight a mob will be beaten in one day every time. If they want another raid that will take time to complete, it will have to involve extensive puzzles.

Epitome
08-21-2011, 11:14 AM
Got it, I'm going off of Shade's report from the LoB. Since you've actually fought him you tell me . . . is there any point in meleeing the LoB?

To be brutally honest no, I think melees will have a more difficult time in here. Some of what shade eludes to about FVS in there is correct, the touch of mournlands HP debuff would make it difficult for the melees to go toe to toe with him for very long on Epic/Elite, not without some heavy heavy heal spam.

I first went in on melee but with the UI cutoff of party members combined with our unsaid general guild policy (be very self sufficient on any class), not knowing the raid yet we were operating on a almost "everyman for himself" playstyle unless someone needed a rez. Switching to FVS for the completion made this, personally easier to manage but still rough (some of us weren't healing others when they were stunned, etc...complications that will pass after people start knowing what is up and can focus on helping out the others).

kailiea
08-21-2011, 11:14 AM
The balanced party (Shade's groups) failed . . . the party of almost all FvS succeeded. I know it's the pilot and not the plane, but still . . .

And from our experience we are sharing that a more balanced approach will benefit you greatly :/

xTethx
08-21-2011, 11:15 AM
Got it, I'm going off of Shade's report from the LoB. Since you've actually fought him you tell me . . . is there any point in meleeing the LoB?

The LoB has a shield that he puts up. After time that shield gets stronger. The stronger the shield the more reduced dmg he takes. You can def melee him, in fact its 10x better than dotting him up. The problem with that is, he is wicked fast if someone is kiting and if you are holding still he ripping thru the tank with debuffs to hit points and healing, trips, a stun that cant be prevented, and his occasional attacks for 200 a pop.

I wont spoil anything else because apparently this raid is already too easy.

NeutronStar
08-21-2011, 11:18 AM
Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..

Evidently you did not realize that the groups that did it comprised of some of the best players accross all the servers.

Ah, I have it! I think you're mad because you weren't included. :rolleyes:





I bet you at least 6 different groups on my server of Khyber beat 1 or both of these raids on the first day. Best my **..

I'm assuming you mean on Epic, right? In that case, I doubt it. Revenants might but I kinda doubt that too.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 11:21 AM
Evidently you did not realize that the groups that did it comprised of some of the best players accross all the servers.

Ah, I have it! I think you're mad because you weren't included. :rolleyes:

Naw.. Man you do not know Khyber either. I am sure Ghallanda, Thelanis, etc.. are no different.

NeutronStar
08-21-2011, 11:30 AM
Actually I DO know Khyber....quite well.




Just want some clarification regarding one of your previous statements Matt.

On what difficulties will these 6 guilds be able to beat the new raids on the first day?

FengXian
08-21-2011, 11:45 AM
On elite / epic difficulty you can... And should.


I already said what I mean by "top players". Not just the well geared ones with good epic stuff and/or some tr's, but the ones who duo elite shroud (^^) and such. So no, the game shouldn't be balanced to give them a really hard time one elite/epic...altho it's often a matter of resources used, mainly.


It didnt take soo long to beat the titan raid because the mobs were so hard to kill. It was because the preraid and raid were big puzzles to be figured out. Any raid that is just fight a mob will be beaten in one day every time. If they want another raid that will take time to complete, it will have to involve extensive puzzles.

And this. Can't expect unbroken bosses/mobs to be a challenge to vets, let alone to the ubers, puzzles are the way. Which means that to make it waaaay more difficult on elite/epic, you'd have to make a whole new raid for those diffs.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 11:50 AM
Actually I DO know Khyber....quite well.




Just want some clarification regarding one of your previous statements Matt.

On what difficulties will these 6 guilds be able to beat the new raids on the first day?

Epic.. Prophets, TFC, ER, Rev, Wanderlust, Ransack, etc..

Gimpinator
08-21-2011, 12:08 PM
Maddmatt70, you are way out of line. You are in no position to talk, or even comment, on anything regarding instances that can only be played on a server you refuse to play on, because "you don't get paid". I highly doubt you have the resources to complete it on epic in the first day. All respect for Prophets currently thrown out the window! Sorry :(

Bodic
08-21-2011, 12:20 PM
Epic.. Prophets, TFC, ER, Rev, Wanderlust, Ransack, etc..


As has been said No SS it didnt happen.

I have seen 1 which you were not part of but Teth was. With as many deaths as they had I would not call it EASY.

You claim you are the Uberz Elite Power Gamer of all DDO, but have ZERO proof. Also, of note unlimited BLUE bar is in effect on Lamannia thanks to Sir Pointsalot. Are you also saying Nobody used any resources at all for a new raid and completed it on the first attempt no issues.

How did you manage to get by the switches of the MA pure luck on felling the beasts in the proper sync. Last I knew it was Broken.

So show me the way PM me/post here with every single detail of your adventur to the unknown.

Absolute-Omniscience
08-21-2011, 12:38 PM
Also, of note unlimited BLUE bar is in effect on Lamannia thanks to Sir Pointsalot.

And it isn't on the live servers?
Anyone who's remotely interested in being "the first" has got infinate SP.
I can straight up buy hundreds of majors without making a dent in my economy.
And I'm not nearly as rich as some people are.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 12:39 PM
As has been said No SS it didnt happen.

I have seen 1 which you were not part of but Teth was. With as many deaths as they had I would not call it EASY.

You claim you are the Uberz Elite Power Gamer of all DDO, but have ZERO proof. Also, of note unlimited BLUE bar is in effect on Lamannia thanks to Sir Pointsalot. Are you also saying Nobody used any resources at all for a new raid and completed it on the first attempt no issues.

How did you manage to get by the switches of the MA pure luck on felling the beasts in the proper sync. Last I knew it was Broken.

So show me the way PM me/post here with every single detail of your adventur to the unknown.

I never claimed anything of the sort and farthest thing from it I think this has nothing to do about being a solid player or what have you it will be completed by many. I believe there are alot of really good players out there so guessing 25ish groups will beat epic on first day spread throughout the servers. I can tell because 8 people beat a raid is all I need to know on their first or second try. I do not waste my time on lammania I am too busy getting xp, grinding gear, etc. in the real game as are most powergamers out there.

Nick_RC
08-21-2011, 01:01 PM
I can see why you dont play on llama norg - this is my first time playing over there - I'd normally rather be working on Groan on live. Unfortunately because of the slow turnover of endgame content he has everything he needs now except EROSS shard. I dont like playing many toons. Thats my perogative I know yall like to play many and more power too ya.

What I dont see is why you are turning this into a ****ing match. We all play togeather and I enjoy running with prophets a lot - they made me feel very welcome ever since I came to khyber - not sure where the hostility is coming from. We played and beat the raid and said it was alot of fun and that they were challenging. Why would we say otherwise? You and I have campaigned for more difficulty in the game for a very long time. Shade got his ass handed to him on multiple occasions. On the easier of the two.

I can guarantee you there will be many many many wipes on epic. As to why we beat it on the first day...number 1.) its pretty obvious and the other llama players know exactly what we are talking about - free/unlimited mana pots. And number 2.) we are a guild of solo/shortman players who group up for speed and fun. We drunk our way to victory and we are good at handling 'every man for himself' situations. Teth used around 250 - I used about 150 and the others would be somewhere in between. Next times we go in we will be figuring out how to do it efficiently because with the rate we were drinking pots there is absolutely no way we could do this raid as an every 3 day occurence on live without better tactics. Its a different ruleset on llama than it is to live. Its a test server - we drunk pots to beat it so we could see how the raid works and test if its working properly - Lord of blades for e.g does not spawn a chest on epic. I was thinking to myself last night how we were going to beat it with limited resource expenditure. Its going to be very difficult. I sure as heck dont buy store mana pots so I'm wracking my brain to figure out different strategies.

Its fun. We arnt bragging, none of the revs have expressed that sentiment whatsoever, just reporting back to the community that we got a couple of great raids coming up. No need for a ****ing match - it was just fun. The new raids were a blast of fresh air.

N

P.S And none of us are under any illusions world firsts mean a thing anymore since they started putting raids live on llama. World firsts are a joke.

maddmatt70
08-21-2011, 01:40 PM
I can see why you dont play on llama norg - this is my first time playing over there - I'd normally rather be working on Groan on live. Unfortunately because of the slow turnover of endgame content he has everything he needs now except EROSS shard. I dont like playing many toons. Thats my perogative I know yall like to play many and more power too ya.

What I dont see is why you are turning this into a ****ing match. We all play togeather and I enjoy running with prophets a lot - they made me feel very welcome ever since I came to khyber - not sure where the hostility is coming from. We played and beat the raid and said it was alot of fun and that they were challenging. Why would we say otherwise? You and I have campaigned for more difficulty in the game for a very long time. Shade got his ass handed to him on multiple occasions. On the easier of the two.

I can guarantee you there will be many many many wipes on epic. As to why we beat it on the first day...number 1.) its pretty obvious and the other llama players know exactly what we are talking about - free/unlimited mana pots. And number 2.) we are a guild of solo/shortman players who group up for speed and fun. We drunk our way to victory and we are good at handling 'every man for himself' situations. Teth used around 250 - I used about 150 and the others would be somewhere in between. Next times we go in we will be figuring out how to do it efficiently because with the rate we were drinking pots there is absolutely no way we could do this raid as an every 3 day occurence on live without better tactics. Its a different ruleset on llama than it is to live. Its a test server - we drunk pots to beat it so we could see how the raid works and test if its working properly - Lord of blades for e.g does not spawn a chest on epic. I was thinking to myself last night how we were going to beat it with limited resource expenditure. Its going to be very difficult. I sure as heck dont buy store mana pots so I'm wracking my brain to figure out different strategies.

Its fun. We arnt bragging, none of the revs have expressed that sentiment whatsoever, just reporting back to the community that we got a couple of great raids coming up. No need for a ****ing match - it was just fun. The new raids were a blast of fresh air.

N

P.S And none of us are under any illusions world firsts mean a thing anymore since they started putting raids live on llama. World firsts are a joke.

Fair enough my goal was not to start some sort of match.. I and speaking with several people on Khyber feel the same way regarding a challenging raid. Obviously normal should not be too difficult. The playerbase should have the opportunity to complete and enjoy the raid. I am solely talking about elite/epic difficulty i.e. the highest difficulty. It would be really nice to have a super hard raid every once in a blue moon. When you grind for gear, tr, strategize, build characters it is nice to actually use all of that. Its fun to actually fail when you try to beat something. This thread is an attempt to appeal to the devs to put out a difficult new raid maybe just every once in a blue moon. Since they are actually releasing two raids it seems like a good opportunity to make one of those raids of this type. Anyway if you say its hard maybe it is, but it would be cool to just get our butts kicked a bit.

NeutronStar
08-21-2011, 01:41 PM
Epic.. Prophets, TFC, ER, Rev, Wanderlust, Ransack, etc..

All of those are good end-game raiding guilds to be sure.

Only one of them has a realistic chance of completing both new raids on Epic difficulty on the first day and only one other has an outside chance of doing the same.

Revenants has the realistic chance. Why? Because they've had the experience of running and completing the raids on Epic difficulty as a guild already.

The Free Companions have an outside shot. Why? Because Axer has the experience after running them several times. To my knowledge, he hasn't actually had any of his groups complete yet on Lamannia but he'll defnitely know what's supposed to be done by the time Update 11 goes live.

The rest of the guilds, while good end-game raiding guilds, almost definitely will not complete both raids on Epic difficulty the first day. They will not have the experience that Revenants has or the experience Axer will be able to impart on TFC.

Now, if you and Prophets start running the raids on Lamannia and get some real experience with them, I'd say you would have a shot too. But since you seem to avoid playing on Lamannia, well...nothing more need be said.


If you like, consider this a challenge from a member of one of those six guilds you mentioned.

Dark-Star
08-21-2011, 01:50 PM
I bet you at least 6 different groups on my server of Khyber beat 1 or both of these raids on the first day. Best my **..

No one is a bigger Norg fan than me, but I have to disagree with you here. Until you have personally run these raids you have a very limited basis for your conclusions. That's just a fact.

There were a lot of crews trying the raids on Saturday, very good players from all servers, but I'm not sure any others beat both raids on epic, despite unlimited resources. Some have even stated that the first raid was a bit too tough. Like I said before, they need to be run on live by a wide variety of players before any conclusions can be made.

The LoB I can see being beat by a bunch of crack teams the first day on epic. But TMA? Unlikely more than one or two serverwide on day one if any.

MeliCat
08-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Yes on elite or epic.. you really do not know Khyber whatsover..

Oh? Who else completed on elite or epic? I'll have to ask around.




I find Clean's comment's very interesting. As long as normal is accessible enough for the playerbase I guess. But I hope that they do not tone down elite or epic too much because having those mountains there even though I may never climb them means that there are goals to stretch to.

Bodic
08-21-2011, 02:28 PM
And it isn't on the live servers?
Anyone who's remotely interested in being "the first" has got infinate SP.
I can straight up buy hundreds of majors without making a dent in my economy.
And I'm not nearly as rich as some people are.


No sir pointsalot give you a bunch of Free TP daily thus endless supply of DDO store access I am talking 1000's of SP pots. To Live you are limited by you wallet.

server/live First no big deal.

Server/live No resources First VERY BIG DEAL.

Server/live First Minimum required party Epic w/ No resources ULTIMATE BIG DEAL.

NoidRoid
08-21-2011, 02:29 PM
Having read the entire thread, it did in fact seem a bit hostile.. and not towards the devs for making an easy raid

I have a good relationship with norg/prophets and revs so that was a bit disappointing and uncalled for from where I sit. Revs is a guild based on achievements and there's nothing wrong with that imo, people don't transfer servers for semi-speed normal completions. Short manning a new raid with unlimited resources(sounds like well over 500 majors total lol) has no bearing on the actual difficulty, much like posting 8 minute von3 and 12 minute chains redskull runs don't make those easy quests.

Fortunately not everyone runs a FS with a gazillion TRs where hitting the major pot hotkey has become second nature for the sake of achievements. I don't think that raids should be scaled to such a small minority, especially when that minority is openly applauding the difficulty of said raid. What incentive is there to misreport the difficulty in that manner? For chest thumping purposes wouldn't it be more logical to declare it easy to shortman a new raid within hours of its' release?

Hydro
08-21-2011, 02:31 PM
The Lord of Blades raid is not easy, it is filled with elements that most DDO players are not used to seeing (other MMO players maybe). The raid is fun challenging and unforgiving and the only thing that needs to be changed is not the difficulty its the fact that the boss can be kited.

If you remove the possibility of kiting element from the fight and force the target of his aggro to stand still it is an extremely brutal fight. I would really like to see a balanced party of melee, ranged, casters and healers try to do the fight without using an insane amount of mana pots or letting the FVS kite.

I spent 6+ hours in there yesterday and tried to do the raid with a somewhat balanced PUG and between the elements of tank swapping, debuff watching, not standing in stuff, multiple phases and a few other nasty suprises I know that the fight itself does not need to be made harder but the ability to kite the boss needs to be eliminated. Once you cant kite the boss it will be the hardest raid (not counting Master Artificer) ever created in DDO and will require a strong group to complete it.

Oh and I definitly agree mana pots and all potions in general need to be limited to 1 per attempt. Of course if they did nerf mana pots the raid would probably need some of the damage tuned down since it is pretty crazy at this point.

Maugrim101
08-21-2011, 04:23 PM
The best players in the game beat it with a ton of deaths with a mana pot guzzle fest on a test server.

All other groups that have tried have failed so far (As far as I know), even with the same unlimted resources avaiable to them. With that in mind, I think it's a bit premature to be saying it's too easy.

mournbladereigns
08-21-2011, 05:21 PM
lolol epeens and egos online.

Lormyr
08-21-2011, 05:42 PM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?

I won't comment on the new raids, as I haven't tried them yet. However the growing power creep and mechanical imbalances are obvious and a concern I share, Riggs.

I believe things should be challenging for all player's, but the quick and dirty solutions (AC changes/grazing hits, blanket immunities, the growing insanity of intimidate DCs, a number of the epic setting mechanics, ect.) to rebalancing the game have worked alright enough, but leave alot to be desired in my opinion. Casters pretty much hold the reigns of power across the board in general, and have for quite some time. It would be nice to see the gap between them bridged a bit, not widened.

I feel the spirit of DnD, in which variety exists to handle combat situations, dwindling from the game, which is sad for me. Many aspects of approaching challenges in the game are becoming unfortunately streamlined and uniform.

Tinco
08-21-2011, 06:14 PM
I feel the spirit of DnD, in which variety exists to handle combat situations, dwindling from the game, which is sad for me. Many aspects of approaching challenges in the game are becoming unfortunately streamlined and uniform.

This problem arose with ToD and the epic raids imo. The problem I see the DDO faces is that while promoting uniformity and streamlined character building/playstyle with the way the mentioned and the upcoming raids are designed, they hesitate to follow the design basics that such content design warrants - more rigid balance and pre-defined options. The amount of viable choices narrows down and I can't sense a real plan to re-enable options via thoughtful changes to the game, for example the AC-issue, ranged combat, certain classes, etc.

There's either the more playful way of old-school DnD encounters like Titan and Abott (pre-change) or the more player-performance-oriented way that other MMOs went like ToD or EChrono. I'm not sure if they try to find a reasonable balance between the two,if they are are about to abandon one of the ways or if they are simply a bit lost in between. ;)

Sad thing is that content is money and game mechanics are not and so I'm a bit afraid that we see a change in content without a proper adjustment of the game's foundation.

stainer
08-21-2011, 06:20 PM
Yeah you just want it easy peasy whereas I want to get my butt kicked. Beating a raid on the first attempt or two is a letdown.

Try not using your gear, or maybe it might be time for a different game.

voodoogroves
08-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Beaten so far by the only group to do things like 2-man VoN6 epic right? I know my limits as a player and if they say it's tough, I kinda believe them.

If it needs to be adjusted, let's see how it plays out on live. Similar to "balancing" crafting because a handful of players could hit the crafting cap pretty much immediately ... it needs to be tough, but it doesn't need to be completely un-achievable.

Qezuzu
08-21-2011, 06:37 PM
Beaten so far by the only group to do things like 2-man VoN6 epic right? I know my limits as a player and if they say it's tough, I kinda believe them.

If it needs to be adjusted, let's see how it plays out on live. Similar to "balancing" crafting because a handful of players could hit the crafting cap pretty much immediately ... it needs to be tough, but it doesn't need to be completely un-achievable.

This.

Some players are simply so well geared, played, and built that if something weren't achievable by them so quickly with +30 deaths, ungodly amounts of SP pots and an hour of effort... well then it's simply too hard.

arkonas
08-21-2011, 06:52 PM
you know some of those people that beat it on epic said it was hard but fun so why make it harder?

gloopygloop
08-21-2011, 07:00 PM
Any chance you can upgrade the difficulty for the two raids or at least one of the raids on epic. The raids appear far too easy. Resources are easy to come by in game so if I have to use some resources shrug. I would love a real challenge. I actually want to fail at attempts in completing a raid for the first time for a few weeks that would be awesome. The old abbot and Titan were both great - give us one of those raids. The game is much too easy on epic.

Seeing this post from someone who hasn't even run the raid yet absolutely made my day. Thank you for the laugh. I've had a tough weekend and really needed that.

grodon9999
08-21-2011, 07:10 PM
Oh and I definitly agree mana pots and all potions in general need to be limited to 1 per attempt. Of course if they did nerf mana pots the raid would probably need some of the damage tuned down since it is pretty crazy at this point.

NOTHING in this game should be balanced on what can be done if you chain-chung SP-pots. unlimited blue-bar is the single most broken aspect of this game.

If they want to actually test the difficulties of the raids Lamania should stop selling SP pots in the store.

These raids are probably a bear, lets see somebody beat them without pots before they are declared "too easy."

gyerv59
08-21-2011, 07:56 PM
Oh and I definitly agree mana pots and all potions in general need to be limited to 1 per attempt. Of course if they did nerf mana pots the raid would probably need some of the damage tuned down since it is pretty crazy at this point.

What? I can only drink 1 remove urse pots per VoD? :P

azrael4h
08-21-2011, 08:19 PM
I feel the spirit of DnD, in which variety exists to handle combat situations, dwindling from the game, which is sad for me. Many aspects of approaching challenges in the game are becoming unfortunately streamlined and uniform.

Yeah, DDO is more dps and insta-kill online vs Dungeons and Dragons Online. D&D3.5e is outstanding due to the fact that you can build practically any fantasy character concept. The archetypes are easily handled by the core, and more obscure or unique concepts can be built using various splats. Yeah it was never balanced against min-maxers; that was never the point.

The complete focus on pure, raw damage output and kill counts is a far cry from any Dungeons and Dragons I've played, pen and paper or even much of the computerized versions.

This of course means that ultimately, he who has the biggest numbers win. IMO kill the point-buy system and bring in rolling 3d6 for each stat. Then again, we'll have people spending hours rolling for that almost mythical 18/18/17/16/18/16 (which I did get, once, which almost gave me a heart attack). Balance content difficulty over that (like real D&D) and build content with means to complete other than "KILL THEM ALL AND MAKE SLAVES OF THEIR CHILDREN".

Braegan
08-21-2011, 08:23 PM
It didnt take soo long to beat the titan raid because the mobs were so hard to kill. It was because the preraid and raid were big puzzles to be figured out. Any raid that is just fight a mob will be beaten in one day every time. If they want another raid that will take time to complete, it will have to involve extensive puzzles.

Hmmm. I remember trying to beat the Titan Awakes when it came out with perfect clarity. It was never the puzzles or the length of the pre-raid that stopped us, it was the raid that defeated us for months. The guild I was in at the time was tenacious over it and was the second on the Xoriat Server to beat the Titan.

It beat us because of the time and state of the game. The cap was level 10. An AC Build had maybe a 45 ac. Max HP was around 200 HP. Take that into Titan and it's a challenge. The pre-raid wasn't a challenge after the first couple of tries, after-all the puzzles don't change, once learned it's easy.

I guess my point being if you want to challenge players at this stage of the game, high hp uber damage dealing mobs won't do it (we will power thru it), puzzles are fun (but they are static and once learned are a done deal); you need more aspects like Evon6 Pillars. Teamwork, coordination, communication to ensure victory. To me that's about the biggest challenge left in game...evon6 and Abbot. Because they require teamplay and communication. No amount of brute force will beat goggles or break 3 pillars at the same time.

This post is made entirely on the postings of the raid, I have myself not been to Lamania to check it out as I wish to save it for live. I am sure the new raids will be fun for a bit and look forward to them.

Xaxx
08-21-2011, 09:56 PM
So people beat the raid by using ungodly amounts of resouses and you want it made harder... I suppose when it goes to live that hard and the only way to complete it even after its been completly figured out is to pony up 10+ mana pots per normal run? and say 20+ on elite or epic.... are you gonna be the one ponnying up the pots... or are you just going to expect the casters to foot the bill for your raiding?????

I'm gonna guess the op will be one of the first people on the forums moaning about clerics not wanting to suck *a pot or two* to complete the raid. By pot or two i mean he'll expect them to take x10 of that and when they wont will get ****ed over it. If people were having trouble with it including the guy with one of the biggest epeens on the forums... i mean if someone who constantly moans about things being to easy for his barb who has 3 pages of purples and 2 pages of purples in storage is having a bit of trouble with it.... I dont mind tough raids..... but I decline having to have full epics and 1000 hp on every toon just to even sniff a raid completion.

Riksha
08-22-2011, 12:58 AM
Was this trip really necessary.

Matt I think you have made yourself look bad. Those guys beat it under test circumstances im sure its not gonna go the same way live. and if the top 1 percentile beats it so what the rest of us would like to give it a shot without cater to the likes of super raiders. you would rather it be so hard that u cant drink 10000 pots and beat it. these are new times where we have ultra customized fvs and such with bad intentions and they all decided to get together so why wouldnt a group like that beat it first try and be a hard raid too.

Riggs
08-22-2011, 01:39 AM
NOTHING in this game should be balanced on what can be done if you chain-chung SP-pots. unlimited blue-bar is the single most broken aspect of this game.

If they want to actually test the difficulties of the raids Lamania should stop selling SP pots in the store.

These raids are probably a bear, lets see somebody beat them without pots before they are declared "too easy."

Indeed.

Unlimited casting is just sheer stupidity.

Mana pots should not go above cure serious pots - 25 sp per chug. Enough to cast 1 more spell, and 25 per instead of 400 per would make them extremely limited usefulness in a raid.

Scraap
08-22-2011, 02:01 AM
Hitting for 600+ damage?

So - melee = Barb for good now I guess. Unless you take a ftr with like all 7 base feats as Toughness.

A Lord of Blades raid sounds like fun. More hp/power creep doesnt.

Last raid turned up the dial to over 500 hp or dont be a 'tank', now its going to be 700 hp? Somehow between level 20 last year and level 20 this year every melee is supposed to pick up 150 more hp out of the blue?

Not the negger, nor do I see the point in negging that, but: 600*0.75 = 450 if ya take the two shield feats on a fighter and snag a tower shield... Question is, just how much nasty magic was flying around in there?

/graspingatstraws

budalic
08-22-2011, 02:19 AM
Yeah, DDO is more dps and insta-kill online vs Dungeons and Dragons Online. D&D3.5e is outstanding due to the fact that you can build practically any fantasy character concept. The archetypes are easily handled by the core, and more obscure or unique concepts can be built using various splats. Yeah it was never balanced against min-maxers; that was never the point.

The complete focus on pure, raw damage output and kill counts is a far cry from any Dungeons and Dragons I've played, pen and paper or even much of the computerized versions.

This of course means that ultimately, he who has the biggest numbers win. IMO kill the point-buy system and bring in rolling 3d6 for each stat. Then again, we'll have people spending hours rolling for that almost mythical 18/18/17/16/18/16 (which I did get, once, which almost gave me a heart attack). Balance content difficulty over that (like real D&D) and build content with means to complete other than "KILL THEM ALL AND MAKE SLAVES OF THEIR CHILDREN".

Rolling for stats is rather dated concept... and rather silly (not to mention stupid). The premise of any Role-playing game should be in giving each player (of the same level, of course) chance to shine. Rolling... isn't good for that.

As for 3.5e being outstanding... it has been outstanding in amount of **** written. About 80% of options are traps, silly things or just plain broken. So, I could make Barbarian - class whose entire focus is melee combat and damage dealing - or I could make Cleric - who will do melee combat better than Barbarian, heal, and have silly powerful offensive spells like Holy Word or Gate. Out of combat, Barbarian has 2 skill points per level - and that's all, while Cleric has vast array of utility spells covering a lot of ground. No matter how optimised Barbarian is, or how unoptimised cleric is - even a monkey playing cleric will eventually stumble upon good options (cleric knows all spells on list, remember) and start using them constantly. 3.5e gets from superhero game on one end (Wizards, Clerics and ilk) too decidedly unheroic struggle on the other hand (Monk and Warlock being prime examples of this).

So, I doubt that you could make any character concept and have fun, unless 'being overshadowed' is fun to you. You can do that in DDO, too... Play Sorc 7/Wiz 6/FvS 7. Make drow, start with 6 Con. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun. In the meanwhile, leave DDO alone. However borked inter-class balance is, a well played character will always have huge impact on party, be it a Ranger (class most ppl regard as worst currently) or FvS (aka. U9+ Top Dog). And, big suprise, in game focused on combat, damage numbers, HP and DCs will take prime seat. Duh.

alexp80
08-22-2011, 02:21 AM
I also think it's ridicluous that you 7 manned an Epic raid in 2 days from it coming out.



I remember all that on lamannia pots are free, so it's a bit different.

Me and my group shortmanned artificer raid (6 people first time for all) on norm with a poorly assorted group (just wanted to see what's new ^^) drinking about 30 pots each. Well I'm trying to figure out a solid no-pots strategy to complete on live and i feel the raid will be painful for a decent amount of time.

We tried also lord of the blades but we wiped with boss at 2% (first time for 4 of us). At least on norm, even if we failed, it seemed a bit easier to me to elaborate a strategy (don't want to spoiler anything right now).

-----------

Those raids, anyway, seems the hardest around for two reason: boss are tough and complex strategies are needed in order to succed

alexp80
08-22-2011, 02:27 AM
The balanced party (Shade's groups) failed . . . the party of almost all FvS succeeded. I know it's the pilot and not the plane, but still . . .

A balanced party requires more knowledge and strategy to be effective than 12 fvs dot&run

azrael4h
08-22-2011, 03:55 AM
Rolling for stats is rather dated concept... and rather silly (not to mention stupid). The premise of any Role-playing game should be in giving each player (of the same level, of course) chance to shine. Rolling... isn't good for that.

As for 3.5e being outstanding... it has been outstanding in amount of **** written. About 80% of options are traps, silly things or just plain broken. So, I could make Barbarian - class whose entire focus is melee combat and damage dealing - or I could make Cleric - who will do melee combat better than Barbarian, heal, and have silly powerful offensive spells like Holy Word or Gate. Out of combat, Barbarian has 2 skill points per level - and that's all, while Cleric has vast array of utility spells covering a lot of ground. No matter how optimised Barbarian is, or how unoptimised cleric is - even a monkey playing cleric will eventually stumble upon good options (cleric knows all spells on list, remember) and start using them constantly. 3.5e gets from superhero game on one end (Wizards, Clerics and ilk) too decidedly unheroic struggle on the other hand (Monk and Warlock being prime examples of this).

So, I doubt that you could make any character concept and have fun, unless 'being overshadowed' is fun to you. You can do that in DDO, too... Play Sorc 7/Wiz 6/FvS 7. Make drow, start with 6 Con. I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun. In the meanwhile, leave DDO alone. However borked inter-class balance is, a well played character will always have huge impact on party, be it a Ranger (class most ppl regard as worst currently) or FvS (aka. U9+ Top Dog). And, big suprise, in game focused on combat, damage numbers, HP and DCs will take prime seat. Duh.

The problem with this is that you never had a DM worth playing with. The D&D I played wasn't ending in combat constantly, and the DMs would dial down or come up with challenges to prevent casters from being dominant. If you couldn't take any character concept into a D&D game and have fun, then the DM sucked or you sucked. Period.

It's called DM Fiat; which means running over your players with an italian automobile when they get out of line. Rule 0.

I've played 3.5e campaigns where there ARE NO MAGIC-USERS OF ANY KIND! *gasp* How unoptimal! How ever will I be full ****** uber without them! Answer: I was playing to have fun. Thus my non-optimal Ranger worked out perfectly well, even if he was a Half-Elf who had Favored Enemy:Elf and never encountered an Elf during the sessions. I had equal fun playing lowly Fighters and Rogues in high-magic campaigns, had fun playing Wizards and Druids in low-magic campaigns, and everything in between. Just because you can't enjoy anything but a full-on ****** game that is nothing but combat after combat after combat and only then if you are the undisputed star of the campaign, that doesn't mean a person could never have fun in 3.5e.

And asking for the game to start including things that aren't about big numbers and can't be brute forced isn't the same as asking for a nerf. Drawn out combat /= challenge.

This is why I gave you neg rep. Congrats, it's something I very rarely bother to do.

Razcar
08-22-2011, 05:23 AM
If they want to actually test the difficulties of the raids Lamania should stop selling SP pots in the store.

These raids are probably a bear, lets see somebody beat them without pots before they are declared "too easy."
Turbine should sell them, they make loads of money on SP pots according to their Store sales statics from 2010.

So what they should do IMO is put a cooldown on SP pots in raid content.

15 seconds per pot in Normal raids, 30 secs in Hard and 60 on Elite/Epic, maybe. That would make chugg-to-success quite much harder.

patang01
08-22-2011, 05:34 AM
Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..

So we're talking about supremely well geared groups with balanced toons that had to replay it several times to figure it out? And one done by a guild?

I need to echo something others have said; if you haven't run these then how come you're arguing for higher difficulty? I'd hope that would be based on your own assessment rather than that of players who have done everything under the sun.

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 07:46 AM
Indeed.

Unlimited casting is just sheer stupidity.

Mana pots should not go above cure serious pots - 25 sp per chug. Enough to cast 1 more spell, and 25 per instead of 400 per would make them extremely limited usefulness in a raid.

I don't see the need to be that restrictive and i personally don't have an issue if a pot or two is needed to handle an emergency. But the ability to have unlimited blue-bar does not give an accurate test/preview/whatever you want to call it.

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 07:50 AM
A balanced party requires more knowledge and strategy to be effective than 12 fvs dot&run

And that's part of what's broken with this game and some of it's over-powered classes.

alexp80
08-22-2011, 07:51 AM
I don't see the need to be that restrictive and i personally don't have an issue if a pot or two is needed to handle an emergency. But the ability to have unlimited blue-bar does not give an accurate test/preview/whatever you want to call it.
Exactly, the testing Revenants made (and my group also) were, properly, tests.

Pots give us more flexibility to explore different ways to complete, but doing the raid live will be totally another experience.

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 07:53 AM
The problem with this is that you never had a DM worth playing with. The D&D I played wasn't ending in combat constantly, and the DMs would dial down or come up with challenges to prevent casters from being dominant. If you couldn't take any character concept into a D&D game and have fun, then the DM sucked or you sucked. Period.

It's called DM Fiat; which means running over your players with an italian automobile when they get out of line. Rule 0.

I've played 3.5e campaigns where there ARE NO MAGIC-USERS OF ANY KIND! *gasp* How unoptimal! How ever will I be full ****** uber without them! Answer: I was playing to have fun. Thus my non-optimal Ranger worked out perfectly well, even if he was a Half-Elf who had Favored Enemy:Elf and never encountered an Elf during the sessions. I had equal fun playing lowly Fighters and Rogues in high-magic campaigns, had fun playing Wizards and Druids in low-magic campaigns, and everything in between. Just because you can't enjoy anything but a full-on ****** game that is nothing but combat after combat after combat and only then if you are the undisputed star of the campaign, that doesn't mean a person could never have fun in 3.5e.

And asking for the game to start including things that aren't about big numbers and can't be brute forced isn't the same as asking for a nerf. Drawn out combat /= challenge.

This is why I gave you neg rep. Congrats, it's something I very rarely bother to do.

Our DM (Turbine) is a power-mad lunatic with no clue as to how to balance this game at all.

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 07:55 AM
Exactly, the testing Revenants made (and my group also) were, properly, tests.

Pots give us more flexibility to explore different ways to complete, but doing the raid live will be totally another experience.

Within a day or two of this being live, some group will drink a zillion SP-pots and win and declare themselves ubb3r on the "Achievements" forum. This option of nearly unlimited SP-pots (they are NOT expensive in RL money) is the most broken thing in this game. A cool-down timer with increasing times as you go C/N/H/E/E would balance this.

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 08:04 AM
Turbine should sell them, they make loads of money on SP pots according to their Store sales statics from 2010.

So what they should do IMO is put a cooldown on SP pots in raid content.

15 seconds per pot in Normal raids, 30 secs in Hard and 60 on Elite/Epic, maybe. That would make chugg-to-success quite much harder.

I was saying NOT sell them on Lamania.

Regarding the timers, those are too short.

Lormyr
08-22-2011, 08:40 AM
Yeah, DDO is more dps and insta-kill online vs Dungeons and Dragons Online. D&D3.5e is outstanding due to the fact that you can build practically any fantasy character concept. The archetypes are easily handled by the core, and more obscure or unique concepts can be built using various splats. Yeah it was never balanced against min-maxers; that was never the point.

The complete focus on pure, raw damage output and kill counts is a far cry from any Dungeons and Dragons I've played, pen and paper or even much of the computerized versions.

This of course means that ultimately, he who has the biggest numbers win. IMO kill the point-buy system and bring in rolling 3d6 for each stat. Then again, we'll have people spending hours rolling for that almost mythical 18/18/17/16/18/16 (which I did get, once, which almost gave me a heart attack). Balance content difficulty over that (like real D&D) and build content with means to complete other than "KILL THEM ALL AND MAKE SLAVES OF THEIR CHILDREN".

I can't say that I think dice rolls for stats would be a good thing. A point buy keeps the playing field even for everyone, and I think that is preferable.

I would just like to see things a little less streamlined than they are becoming, more like the game was a few years ago when there was significantly more "right" ways to approach many scenerios. In glaring need of attention, in my personal opinion, is:

- A rebalancing of AC, grazing hits, and enemy attack bonuses, which might also require some tweaking of damage mitigation (DR, shield blocking, ect.) in the process

- Tweaks to some combination of enemy resistances, saving throws, quest design, enemy scripting and pathing, and/or player spells to rebalance casters a bit so they aren't automatic win versus everything.

- Ranged combat.

I understand the difficulty in balancing a game for the new player while keeping the 12 times TR'd vet with 8 pieces of epic gear challenged. That is quite a difficult feat, but also one that Turbine pigeonholed themselves into by being a little bit shortsighted with the TR system and the ease of which non DQ/VoN epic items were aquired (no offense is intended there, but it is my honest perspective).

I think that is what the epic difficulty setting is really for though - those types of characters. The difficulty setting is one of turbines best tools right now, and I feel like it isn't being utilized to it's full potential. If those monster characters walk through anything on normal without a challenge, well, that's probably how it should be. That's why they run elite and epic instead - for the challenge and better chances at loot.

I am genuinely concerned about the hp issues for non barb/fighter melee's moving forward though. The floor is quickly catching up to the ceiling, and the ceiling is not expanding.

Edit: And while not glaring, it sure would be nice to see some new spells for bards, paladins, and rangers. Bards especially.

Lormyr
08-22-2011, 08:41 AM
Our DM (Turbine) is a power-mad lunatic with no clue as to how to balance this game at all.

I do find it frustrating that they have continued to make the same mistakes over and over again for going on 6 years. Sad to say, but I have to agree with you.

phum
08-22-2011, 09:04 AM
The problem with this is that you never had a DM worth playing with. The D&D I played wasn't ending in combat constantly, and the DMs would dial down or come up with challenges to prevent casters from being dominant. If you couldn't take any character concept into a D&D game and have fun, then the DM sucked or you sucked. Period.

It's called DM Fiat; which means running over your players with an italian automobile when they get out of line. Rule 0.

I've played 3.5e campaigns where there ARE NO MAGIC-USERS OF ANY KIND! *gasp* How unoptimal! How ever will I be full ****** uber without them! Answer: I was playing to have fun. Thus my non-optimal Ranger worked out perfectly well, even if he was a Half-Elf who had Favored Enemy:Elf and never encountered an Elf during the sessions. I had equal fun playing lowly Fighters and Rogues in high-magic campaigns, had fun playing Wizards and Druids in low-magic campaigns, and everything in between. Just because you can't enjoy anything but a full-on ****** game that is nothing but combat after combat after combat and only then if you are the undisputed star of the campaign, that doesn't mean a person could never have fun in 3.5e.

And asking for the game to start including things that aren't about big numbers and can't be brute forced isn't the same as asking for a nerf. Drawn out combat /= challenge.

This is why I gave you neg rep. Congrats, it's something I very rarely bother to do.

Turbine will never have the man power to have ppl actually work as dms. That would require a gm for every few open instances or so and the work would be quite hard. Even tho I do think it would be quite cool, it's completely unrealistic to assume so.

As is, I disagree with the notion, that Turbine is teh dm of ddo. Imo DDO doesn't have a dm, it only has content and rules and ppl playing by and taking advantage of them. Everything happens as has been coded beforehand and gm interventions are rare. If the coding would have more randomization/ai in quest structure, type, amount and difficulty of encounters, I'd maybe concede that there is indeed a dm (altho with just randomization I'd say the dm is mad^^ Just that a mad dm is imo better than no dm:D). But there isn't much at all.

With 3.5 and a good dm, most balance problems can be repaired on the fly. Sometimes even that isn't enough. But what happens, when there is no gm, but only rules and content?

Don't take me wrong. With all it's options, 3.5 is still my favorite. Just that for an mmo, it's quite broken and the extent to which DDO has managed to interpret it is very much dependent on the person you ask. In my opinion, it comes down to the questions at what stage does your character spend most of it's life and do you want it to be capable/powerful during that time and whether or not you still have many options.

alexp80
08-22-2011, 09:12 AM
Within a day or two of this being live, some group will drink a zillion SP-pots and win and declare themselves ubb3r on the "Achievements" forum. This option of nearly unlimited SP-pots (they are NOT expensive in RL money) is the most broken thing in this game. A cool-down timer with increasing times as you go C/N/H/E/E would balance this.

And who cares? My goal will be to complete these raids with my guild pots free, and i'm already thinking about the best strategy to do so. Several of my mates hava records on official forums for fastest epic completions, but I never said "we completed 'cause we're uber". It's pointless.

I just want to have fun with a real challenge ^^

grodon9999
08-22-2011, 09:14 AM
I am genuinely concerned about the hp issues for non barb/fighter melee's moving forward though. The floor is quickly catching up to the ceiling, and the ceiling is not expanding.

I don't think the nails are in the coffin yet, I really suspect people are missing something, some kinda of game mechanic that debuffs him to make him less ubber.

Lormyr
08-22-2011, 09:20 AM
I don't think the nails are in the coffin yet, I really suspect people are missing something, some kinda of game mechanic that debuffs him to make him less ubber.

Well, I didn't intend to speak of the raid in that regard, though from what I understand from Shade and others that appears to be a shining example of my statement. I am reserving all comments until I have actually tried it.

My comment was meant more as a general statement of the way I see and fear the game progressing. Horroth's badges mitigating the use of a high AC tank, and AC still continuing to be less than useful in epic being existing examples.

I remember after they made their changes to epic attack rolls trying Lormyr out in a simple epic von 1. Had a bard and pally friend come along to test it out, and even with their aura and song boosting my ac to 95 the ogres only rarely missed me.

Razcar
08-22-2011, 09:40 AM
I was saying NOT sell them on Lamania.

Stupid to make a DDO Store expection only on the preview server when they instead could kill of potion P2W in one good swipe - preview server or not.

Eladiun
08-22-2011, 09:51 AM
Yeah so.. Multiple groups beat these raids within a few hours.. It will be no different when it hits the live servers. I do not believe in playing on lammania unless Turbine pays me to do so..


I've read a few ridiculous things in my time here on these forums but few as ludicrous as critiquing something you have never experienced. Sure, a number of groups brute forced victories out of LOB. How many healers on live will be willing to suck down 40+ store pots to win? What people are leaving out of their posts are the resources use to get that completion. Pots on Lam are free. Shades Elite had 30+ deaths. People in their skivies because of broken gear. Of course, strategies will develop (having been in a few runs I have some ideas) and some of the bugs add to the difficulty but but even then the Lord is a beast who will punish the unprepared.

stainer
08-22-2011, 09:57 AM
I've read a few ridiculous things in my time here on these forums but few as ludicrous as critiquing something you have never experienced. Sure, a number of groups brute forced victories out of LOB. How many healers on live will be willing to suck down 40+ store pots to win? What people are leaving out of their posts are the resources use to get that completion. Pots on Lam are free. Shades Elite had 30+ deaths. People in their skivies because of broken gear. Of course, strategies will develop (having been in a few runs I have some ideas) and some of the bugs add to the difficulty but but even then the Lord is a beast who will punish the unprepared.

No. We must blindly attack the unknown! It is the key to success.

budalic
08-22-2011, 10:26 AM
Stupid to make a DDO Store expection only on the preview server when they instead could kill of potion P2W in one good swipe - preview server or not.

The problem is that potions are good seller, especially among casual crowd.

IMO, the cooldown on pots would make them less useful, while still keeping sales. Vast majority of DDO Store SP Pot sales comes from casual players - players that spend a lot of time doing quests, don't care about optimal build and gear, and that are willing to pay money to make easy (for hardcore crowd) quests even easier, to make them completable on their skill level. Only time I've ever seen such pot was when it was being linked by guildie I was helping to do New Invasion (it was pre-u9, so at the end I was forced to go down into pit alone and Necro Blast the boss - was very annoying).

So, assigning timer would nerf pots for hardcore players that buy them with pp and hoard stacks of 100s of them; while still making them desired for casual players who buy them from DDO store.

EDIT: Not that I care either way, though... if somebody wants to drink a bunch of pots, big deal... not my problem.

LordPiglet
08-22-2011, 11:25 AM
i think it's sort of ridiculous for Matt to suggest changing something he's never experienced first hand.

I also think it's ridicluous that you 7 manned an Epic raid in 2 days from it coming out.

However it's well known that what Revenents do is short man extremely hard raids with a high level of success, resources be darned.

Us losers have to accept that those guys are exceptionally good at beating ridiculous raids with small numbers. In some ways it might even be an advantage to have less people to heal, coordinate, buff, instruct etc.

I think at the end of the day this might actually be a positive thing: you can take the best equipment in the game and give it to lots of hard core players, but only the best are actually going to do ridiculous things like TOD elite 4 man or beat the new Epic raid right away.

Shade tried it with a full group and failed, more than once. If Shade and a group of end game geared players can fail multiple times, this raid IS NOT too easy.

Those of you who are saying it is are just all sour grapes because you and your buddies aren't pulling off what Rev did. Either test on Lam or wait till live to bellyache I say.

Lets see, didn't they have like 5 FvS in that party? For all intensive purposes aren't SP unlimited since they can just get pointsalot and buy a ton of pots from the store?

These guys ran as a guild, are guys who play together constantly who know information and how to communicate. They were at an advantage, especially if shade knew less the 1/2 his party or certain members didn't come prepared to straight up brute force it.

Drfirewater79
08-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Yeah you just want it easy peasy whereas I want to get my butt kicked. Beating a raid on the first attempt or two is a letdown.

I was in a pretty elite group that wiped twice on normal .... get the elitism out of normal and make epic super stupid hard .. and i am down ..

but when experienced players wipe on normal its way too hard.

(that being said we would have beat it the second time if not for the targeting bug that made it so we couldnt kill the last wave of trash mobs)

Drfirewater79
08-22-2011, 12:38 PM
I've read a few ridiculous things in my time here on these forums but few as ludicrous as critiquing something you have never experienced. Sure, a number of groups brute forced victories out of LOB. How many healers on live will be willing to suck down 40+ store pots to win? What people are leaving out of their posts are the resources use to get that completion. Pots on Lam are free. Shades Elite had 30+ deaths. People in their skivies because of broken gear. Of course, strategies will develop (having been in a few runs I have some ideas) and some of the bugs add to the difficulty but but even then the Lord is a beast who will punish the unprepared.

^This

the raid is bugged as all hell right now .. but its still a really hard raid even on normal .. the fact that you can play it on EPIC suggests that it can get much MUCH harder then stupidly hard which it is ... come live no healer is gonna want to do that raid on anything other then normal ... unless they are a million aire and dont mind buying 100 pots each completion.

GeneralDiomedes
08-22-2011, 12:49 PM
It sounds to me like they have created the most difficult encounter yet in the game. And by difficult, I don't mean poorly designed quest mechanics that simply don't work properly (Abbot/Titan).

Actually, I cannot think of a fight scenario which could not be beaten in one day given current DDO game mechanics.

Postumus
08-22-2011, 12:57 PM
Any chance you can downgrade the difficulty for the two raids or at least one of the raids on epic. The raids appear far too difficult. Resources are hard to come by in game so if I have to use some resources ouch. I would love a lesser challenge. I actually want to win at attempts in completing a raid for the first time for a few weeks that would be awesome. The old abbot and Titan were both horrible - don't give us one of those raids. The game is much too difficult on epic.

Razcar
08-22-2011, 01:08 PM
[...]
So, assigning timer would nerf pots for hardcore players that buy them with pp and hoard stacks of 100s of them; while still making them desired for casual players who buy them from DDO store.

Yes... which is kind of exactly why I suggested this one page back :) (Which is a suggestion that has been around in different forms for years.)


Turbine should sell them, they make loads of money on SP pots according to their Store sales statics from 2010.

So what they should do IMO is put a cooldown on SP pots in raid content.

15 seconds per pot in Normal raids, 30 secs in Hard and 60 on Elite/Epic, maybe. That would make chugg-to-success quite much harder.

This will not stop low and mid-level pot chuggers - not hinder chuggers in normal quests at all actually - but hard and elite raids would become harder to chug yourself through.

budalic
08-22-2011, 02:48 PM
Yes... which is kind of exactly why I suggested this one page back :) (Which is a suggestion that has been around in different forms for years.)

Oh, I didn't mean to sell it as my own idea, just was to lazy to quote/forgot to type 'as suggested in this thread'.

Mea culpa.

NeutronStar
08-22-2011, 03:01 PM
No. We must blindly attack the unknown! It is the key to success.

So you attack the act of having sex with another person in hopes it gets you laid??? :confused::eek:

Riggs
08-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Within a day or two of this being live, some group will drink a zillion SP-pots and win and declare themselves ubb3r on the "Achievements" forum. This option of nearly unlimited SP-pots (they are NOT expensive in RL money) is the most broken thing in this game. A cool-down timer with increasing times as you go C/N/H/E/E would balance this.

A cooldown would be good too if it was long enough. As right now you can go from 0 to full mana in like 5 seconds ...yeah the game is broken, and raids get designed not around what is balanced - but what high spenders can accomplish - which borks the game for everyone who doesnt choose that route.

I dont enjoy game mechanics where the healer is expected to use $$ to keep a group up - not just massive amounts of scrolls but points and real cash.

Riggs
08-22-2011, 04:11 PM
Well, I didn't intend to speak of the raid in that regard, though from what I understand from Shade and others that appears to be a shining example of my statement. I am reserving all comments until I have actually tried it.

My comment was meant more as a general statement of the way I see and fear the game progressing. Horroth's badges mitigating the use of a high AC tank, and AC still continuing to be less than useful in epic being existing examples.

I remember after they made their changes to epic attack rolls trying Lormyr out in a simple epic von 1. Had a bard and pally friend come along to test it out, and even with their aura and song boosting my ac to 95 the ogres only rarely missed me.

It is out of control. The game is forcing hp up even more than before, and it is really absurd that a build that can serve you well from level 1-19 becomes nearly useless at level 20. "Oh you have a high ac paladin/ranger/monk/whatever? - ok you can maybe kite something while the real melee(barbs) do the actual work for the epic/raid."

I enjoy playing clerics less and less as DDO goes on.

Turbine's ideal endgame group:
Barbs
Healing cleric/fvs
Sorc

Everything else can be 1-2 shotted no matter their ac, and has a fraction of the dps - so really why bother?

Riggs
08-22-2011, 04:21 PM
I've read a few ridiculous things in my time here on these forums but few as ludicrous as critiquing something you have never experienced. Sure, a number of groups brute forced victories out of LOB. How many healers on live will be willing to suck down 40+ store pots to win? What people are leaving out of their posts are the resources use to get that completion. Pots on Lam are free. Shades Elite had 30+ deaths. People in their skivies because of broken gear. Of course, strategies will develop (having been in a few runs I have some ideas) and some of the bugs add to the difficulty but but even then the Lord is a beast who will punish the unprepared.

Any and every guild that raids would probably be more than happy to have everyone chip in 3 pots each to get early epic gear before Turbine nurfs the quest after 2 weeks - like they do pretty much in every update in their history.

Masses of people will brute force it as fast as possible as many times as possible before the nurf bat and then have the gear and not need to run the raid as much while more casual players will once again get lower drop rates once they get there - like happens every time.

It is not about how much dying they had to do on Lam to brute force it - it is the simple fact that brute forcing raids should never have been an option on Lam or live to begin with.

Skill and 1-2 clickies for extra mana sure - but all quests are 'easy' when you can chug 100,000 sp and just keep going when the group should have been wiped.

It reduces tactics in many cases to: just stand there and keep hitting no matter how much damage you are taking - because I have 100 pots worth of mana to keep you alive with.

It breaks the game, all semblance of balance, and needs to be changed - then start designing endgame content around realistic characters not unlimited mana characters.

Aeneas
08-22-2011, 04:54 PM
Some Truths.

1. Norg probably spoke out of turn, but like alot of us, it really did seem at first hearing about the win that this was going to be another raid that you fail once or twice, learn the patterns, and dominate - on any difficulty. He wasn't the only person who immediately said to themself "I can't believe they screwed up epic again."

2. If you're going to post accomplishments of any kind, be prepared for some backlash, nobody likes bragging (and yes just posting the fact that you beat it is bragging after a fashion). Even if you aren't doing it in a particularly asinine way as some have in the past, just throwing the fact out there gets people's hackles up. I was part of a couple elite run raid firsts myself and i've seen the way these threads go from both sides of the line.

3. Revenants are a good guild with some very experienced and talented players. Nobody is surprised that they were able to accomplish this. To be fair though, there's enough pretty terrific players in all of the guilds Norg mentioned to have finished it as well, and i don't doubt that they will, albeit probably not on day 1. (i personally like to run it on all of the difficulties in order when new stuff comes out because the experience differs so greatly each time)

4. Judging difficulty based on the experience of such a small sample size is ridiculous. In BOTH directions, too hard and too easy. There's always somebody out there who thinks of a way to beat a raid that you never even considered. Even if this raid is released "as-is", it will get figured out, our tactics will improve, we'll get tips from other guilds and other servers, and we'll be flying through it the same way that we fly through all the other content.

So,

Golf clap, nice job Revs thanks for testing. Now stop F-ing around and come back to Khyber so we can run actual content. Especially you, Axer. I still need to complete a bunch of epics before this junk hits live!

Rumbaar
08-22-2011, 05:09 PM
The top 1% beat it within hours, I'm sure that's an indication of the rest of the 99% of the DDO population ...

Not so subtle brag thread, congrats.

Lormyr
08-22-2011, 05:32 PM
It is out of control. The game is forcing hp up even more than before, and it is really absurd that a build that can serve you well from level 1-19 becomes nearly useless at level 20. "Oh you have a high ac paladin/ranger/monk/whatever? - ok you can maybe kite something while the real melee(barbs) do the actual work for the epic/raid."

There is still time to turn things around. Turbine just needs to pull itself together, acknowledge it as a less than desirable situation, and work to correct it.

I think a simple but substantial start would be to either do away with grazing hits altogether, or scale them back to only occuring on a die roll of 18 or 19+ that would otherwise miss. 13+ or 15+ (I cannot recall which it is) is more than a little bit silly, even for elite and epic when combined with the AC needed to be considered useful on such difficulties in the first place.

A nice second step would be to reduce the amount of damage taken on a grazing hit. 50 point grazing hits are ugly, and a little bit insulting. Might as well have just been a regular hit at that point.

Riggs
08-22-2011, 11:31 PM
There is still time to turn things around. Turbine just needs to pull itself together, acknowledge it as a less than desirable situation, and work to correct it.

I think a simple but substantial start would be to either do away with grazing hits altogether, or scale them back to only occuring on a die roll of 18 or 19+ that would otherwise miss. 13+ or 15+ (I cannot recall which it is) is more than a little bit silly, even for elite and epic when combined with the AC needed to be considered useful on such difficulties in the first place.

A nice second step would be to reduce the amount of damage taken on a grazing hit. 50 point grazing hits are ugly, and a little bit insulting. Might as well have just been a regular hit at that point.

I think monsters hit on a 15 or better on elite and players are 13+ if I remember.

One idea I posted a long time ago, that of course went into the hole of other unused ideas was what we did in old house rules games that were a mashup of a few systems (Rolemaster/Gurps/Champions/Some D&D etc).

The more you hit by, the more damage you did. Making a high skill fighter deadly with even a dagger - regardless of strength - which is exactly what a level 20 fighter should be - deadly with any weapon even without Titan strength.

The alternative to grazing hits was if you MISS - you do say half damage if you miss by 2-4, and 10% of base damage 4-5 or some such (we were using a 3d6 system so it was more miss by 1-2 or so).

So if you get close you do some damage - but with auto hits already on a 20 getting hit for half damage on a 15 or better is just absurd. No matter if your AC is 150 you get hit 1 in 4 swings no matter what - on top of all the increasingly amounts of unavoidable, no to hit roll no evasion damage - Turbine is just saying "Play barbs because we just dont want ac to matter and people get to avoid damage."

A cynical person might say - well unavoidable damage = more healing and more healing = pots = DDO Store sales $$...but I am not going to say that.

Because I just dont want to think about a system where someone higher up in accounting decides to have the game changed from what it was fun and should be - to one where you must spend $$ to compete at the higher content.