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Samadhi
08-20-2011, 08:51 AM
I would *prefer* to make a caster-focused artificer more than a melee-focused one. Many of the preliminary reports have been going against this being ideal, however, based on a couple things:
1) small mana pool
2) limited spell pen/DCs on capstone+scroll combos

The primary purpose of this post is to fish for ways to make this more feasible.

One of the ideas I have been throwing around is Dragonmarked Halfling (extra single-target tank / solo healing) or HElf (Storm nuking fits in with general electric spec'd Artie). Naturally, despite Artie's having a lot of feats, this is still relatively sub-par unfortunately due to limited charges on ANY DM build.

I have piles of money for "unlimited scrolls" via capstone, but have not seem promising calculations of the effectiveness of offense this way.

So again, any other ideas out there on how to make a caster-focused Artie feasible? Or will it end up like a bard, where at endgame it just falls apart?

Voldomar
08-20-2011, 09:48 AM
Having limited spell pen/dc is..."good" so a caster focused artificer won't step on pure caster's toes.

The small mana pool should be addessed using wands and scroll but unfortunately in order to be a true blastificer you need 2 missing classs abilities (shame!): "Metamagic Spell Trigger/Metamagic spell Completion". The pnp version has them; let's hope to see them in ddo too.

Grace_ana
08-20-2011, 10:12 AM
Having limited spell pen/dc is..."good" so a caster focused artificer won't step on pure caster's toes.

This is true, but it would be nice if it was taking into consideration regarding rogues as well. Currently they are stomping all over roguey toes.

Shade
08-20-2011, 10:20 AM
Artificers will be very powerful casters at endgame.

A lot of people are unestimating the incredible power of their capstone..

It basicaly means you can fully -- cast -- every single spell in the game - from any class (or evne ones no classes get, but appear on clickies).. As long as you have a wand/clicky/scroll of it.

And by cast i mean.. FULL casting of it. Including casting it at caster level20 (or higher with epic gear), and applying your FULL int bonus to the spell.

Yes you can't apply metas, but many spells are ultra potent without metas... Especially when you can carry an unlimited amount of them via scrolls.

SP too low?
Get a spell storing ring..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Ring_of_Spell_Storing
Take a close look at the screenshot..

See how it lists a caster level, and scales with that caster level?
4 ---> 20 on artificer..
So while other suckas only get 25 SP per click back.
You'll get a whoping 105 SP per click. (Confirmed this worked ingame also)

Thats just one example of the many of the awesome things that will happen when you get the capstone.

Re:
caster-focused artificer more than a melee-focused one.
um no worries there, Artificers will make weak melee. They pretty much get zero bonuses for melee. What they do get is rather potent crossbow damage if you spec that route, but im expecting that to get lowered before release at least at the lower leveles (At 20 it will still pale in comparison to full on spell nuking assuming there infusion spells work nicely and are debugged fully, which i bet they will be considered this is pay only class).

Crann
08-20-2011, 10:35 AM
What do you think the odds of the Capstone making it to Live as is?

I think as it stands....it is incredibly powerful....in a much higher proportion than other Capstones.

Isolani
08-20-2011, 10:41 AM
Will be TRing to an arti with 3 wizard past lives when they go live, just to play with the capstone, should be fun. Yeah, I'll be juggling an inventory full of scrolls, wands, and clickies...but it can't be any worse than playing my fighter/rogue.

EatSmart
08-20-2011, 10:41 AM
Eternal wand of magic missile is also looking tasty with the capstone going by the description. anyone able to confirm?

Shade
08-20-2011, 10:50 AM
What do you think the odds of the Capstone making it to Live as is?

I think as it stands....it is incredibly powerful....in a much higher proportion than other Capstones.

Pretty good.

They want the dollars, so making the class brokenly-powerful at lvl20 is a good way to get em.

Id rate the chance at possibly over 95% if they intend to even charge VIPs for this class. Else 90% heh.

Shade
08-20-2011, 10:51 AM
Eternal wand of magic missile is also looking tasty with the capstone going by the description. anyone able to confirm?

probably. CL20 magic missiles without metas are't exactly that powerful. Not to mention non-enhanced (tho its unclear if enhancements apply yet or not.. thinking no)

Crann
08-20-2011, 10:58 AM
Caster level 20 on all your cookies too?

I have already noticed the benefits leveling up on the increased caster levels on clickies.


I am really going to have to re-evaluate their usefulness now....especially on the clickies that are very short duration.

20 minute blur/shield/jump/prot.from evil :) Not to mention 2 minute Hastes, Displacements, Etc.

budalic
08-20-2011, 11:01 AM
They want the dollars, so making the class brokenly-powerful at lvl20 is a good way to get em.

Judging by state of Artificer currently, they certanly aren't making best job out of it, though... unless you consider half of classes in game brokenly-powerful *chuckle*

EDIT: To the OP - general idea of the class seems to be non-focused, actually - you have xbow/melee, you have runearms, you have spells and you have some damage from pet too - it seems Devs wanted Artificers to use all of those combined.

However, human w/3 deneith dragonmarks holding eChimeraClaw in off-hand can achieve 46 int w/ship buff and yugo pot. Assuming heightening enchantments work on scrolls (didn't test it out personally) and with 3 wiz past lives, you could get 40 DC circle of death scrolls for general use - I'm not sure, but I think casting this from scroll might bypas cooldown of the spell too; and 41 DC FoD scrolls; 40 DC cometfall (for trip) and greater command. Even if you get one wiz past life, it seems that DC of two points lower than that should be very worth using.

However, that's a lot of work, and I personally would rather roll Pale Master instead.

EDIT2: You can hope, though, that there are items, made specificaly for capstoned artificers, that add bonus DC to spells cast from scrolls. At least it would make pay offs worth the effort.

jingseng
08-20-2011, 11:13 AM
RE: spell storing ring

thought about this today for a long while - pondering purchases in anticipation of post update hikes. After some careful reading, I don't think it will work with the capstone.

The capstone says any (clicky) that casts a spell. While the spell storing ring DOES have a caster level, it does not list any spell. It uses caster level only for the purpose of determining how much SP to 'heal' you for when used.

I get the feeling that this will be rather closely attended to as the spell storing ring is meant to only give enough sp for a lv4 spell - this being an adaptation of the original method (pnp) of "well, you cast the spell into the ring, and then it saves it up to be released later"

I could be wrong (and that'd make several items quite powerful) - I'd like to hear what a dev has to say about it. In the meantime, items with similar effects that can be used for testing (for those on lam with 20 arts) - spell storing ring (of course), archivist's necklace (the korthos item that returns sp), twisted talisman (deals hp damage, heals sp), and mysterious bauble... all of which also reference a caster level (and are presented in a more spell-like format). However, only spell storing ring references caster level to the sp restored...

Incidentally, non 20 arts can also test - Artificier knowledge - Wondrous items has the effect of raising caster level on clickies.

However:
Retain Essence Feat - Whenever an Artificer uses a rod, staff, or wand, the character has a chance to not expend a charge. The percentage chance is based on (Artificer levels + Intelligence modifier)% chance not to expend a charge.

Capstone - The patterns of the most complex magical formulae are like children's drawings to you. You treat any equipped item that casts spells (such as scrolls, wands, rods, or other activated items) as if they were staves, using your caster level as well as determining Save DC's using your Intelligence if it would be better than the base item's.

Read together, it suggests that using clickies at art20 carries a chance to not use any charges - which is powerful for obvious reasons. Can a dev comment on whether this is a correct interpretation?

Lastly, the language of the art enh line Wand and Scroll Mastery - Grants a 30% increase to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells. - suggests that the referenced sp restoring clickies ought to be more effective in art hands by the stated percentages; however, the same language is used in similar wand and scroll mastery enhancements held by other classes (such as wizzy) and I generally assume they do not see any increased SP return... (or do they?)

jjflanigan
08-20-2011, 11:20 AM
RE: spell storing ring

thought about this today for a long while - pondering purchases in anticipation of post update hikes. After some careful reading, I don't think it will work with the capstone.

The capstone says any (clicky) that casts a spell. While the spell storing ring DOES have a caster level, it does not list any spell. It uses caster level only for the purpose of determining how much SP to 'heal' you for when used.

Shade already tested this in game and found that it does work with the capstone.

From his post above -- "You'll get a whoping 105 SP per click. (Confirmed this worked ingame also)"

Vellrad
08-20-2011, 11:34 AM
Shade already tested this in game and found that it does work with the capstone.

From his post above -- "You'll get a whoping 105 SP per click. (Confirmed this worked ingame also)"

This does not means it will be unchanged on live.

jjflanigan
08-20-2011, 11:42 AM
This does not means it will be unchanged on live.

I know, but the phrasing in the post I quoted made it sound like he was speaking of how it functions now, not how it might be changed to function.

GeneralDiomedes
08-20-2011, 11:45 AM
I know, but the phrasing in the post I quoted made it sound like he was speaking of how it functions now, not how it might be changed to function.

And his reasoning was that it wasn't a spell .. but you could argue that "Spell Store" is the spell listed.

Monkey_Archer
08-20-2011, 11:58 AM
It looks to me like artificers will not be very powerful as pure casters using only artificer spells. Artificer spells alone looks pretty limited compared to other casting classes. There don't really have any CC or instakill spells, and their nuking capabilities looks somewhat limited with no SLAs... BB is probably enough for most things but even with the force line, but you're still going to be behind a fvs with PRE and more sp to burn.

That said, I think caster spec is the still the way to go. The ability to supplement artificer spells with scrolls/clickies should go a long way to fill in their deficiencies. You wont be nearly as effective as wizards (or even sorcs) with CC/instakills using scrolls, but it will work well enough. The insightful infusions also mean that even without putting any feats/stats into melee or ranged, you can still contribute some physical damage on top of casting.

IMO a caster spec artificer will be powerful because of their versatility, not merely because they are good casters.

Calebro
08-20-2011, 12:20 PM
However:
Retain Essence Feat - Whenever an Artificer uses a rod, staff, or wand, the character has a chance to not expend a charge. The percentage chance is based on (Artificer levels + Intelligence modifier)% chance not to expend a charge.

Capstone - The patterns of the most complex magical formulae are like children's drawings to you. You treat any equipped item that casts spells (such as scrolls, wands, rods, or other activated items) as if they were staves, using your caster level as well as determining Save DC's using your Intelligence if it would be better than the base item's.

Read together, it suggests that using clickies at art20 carries a chance to not use any charges - which is powerful for obvious reasons. Can a dev comment on whether this is a correct interpretation?

The wording isn't ambiguous to me at all. Retain Essence says nothing about clickies. Retain Essences specifies Rods, Staves and Wands.
If you can retain charges on clickies with the capstone, then I would assume that it's a bug. And that's *if* you can retain charges with the capstone. I haven't bothered leveling past 15 on mine so I can't check.


IMO a caster spec artificer will be powerful because of their versatility, not merely because they are good casters.

This. Artys will be powerful because of their versatility. They can be built to make certain that they ALWAYS have the right tool for the job. That's an extremely powerful toolbox they have. They may not have the pure power that other casters have, so other casters will do things faster, but they will have the ability to do literally almost anything that they want to if built and geared for it.

nicro
08-20-2011, 12:32 PM
I believe, level 20 Artificers use scrolls, wands, etc. at caster level 25 not 20 because of Artificer Knowledge.

Bodic
08-20-2011, 12:42 PM
This is true, but it would be nice if it was taking into consideration regarding rogues as well. Currently they are stomping all over roguey toes.

No they do not step on rogue toes.
No Evasion
No Improved Evasion
High will Low reflex fort saves
Only +1 Int chance w/T3 same as a splash AM wiz, but if you want IPS you need 19 dex.
No SA dice.
same HD D6

do you think giving up there capstone is worth evasion. I DON'T. And well any splash rogue steps on rogue toes if all you thinking about is traps which you never should same as thinking a wiz/sorc is your buff bot or your Clr/FvS is your heal bot.

I am not in anyway worried that rogues will be more shunned, because Artificier has Disable Device as a class skill.

I <3 Rogues.

Now to the OP they will not be as good as spell casting classes, but they will be good enough most certainly after full twinkage gear and PL+ as they will benefit from basically all PPL's and could from a majority of APL's.

I mean if you fit the AP and had 3pal pl's 15% HA add ship for 25% so Heal scroll (CL15 150+70%)+ 25%= 319 HP per scroll lt alone Human or monk and gear +'s considering self or other toons.

I know I will play with my FW,BB,CK,& CF scrolls that are hidden away someplace

ChronicGenius1
08-20-2011, 12:58 PM
I think they are going to make a caster PrE for the artificer, like they have for bards. Possibly even including the ability to apply the metamagics to wands and scrolls, making the caster arty viable and on par with casters (as long he has the resources).

Calebro
08-20-2011, 01:01 PM
I think they are going to make a caster PrE for the artificer, like they have for bards. Possibly even including the ability to apply the metamagics to wands and scrolls, making the caster arty viable and on par with casters (as long he has the resources).

The ability to Meta wands and scrolls is a class ability for all Artificers in PnP. It wasn't a specialized ability from a Prestige Class, it was automatically granted to all Artys.
I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't given to them here. But it would almost certainly make them OP, so I can understand why they didn't.

ChronicGenius1
08-20-2011, 01:14 PM
I am fully aware about the abuse of metamagics and artificers in pnp 3.5, having played a few myself. But even in pnp it was limit to only a certain number of time today, or it costs more wand charges etc. In ddo, it could mean that the artificer had to spend spell points. Implementing that in ddo would prevent it from being totally op'd as it is still gimped in spell points and could be further balanced my making it take ridiculous feats to be able to do that. And if the restrictions are fair, it would allow the artificer to be a fine caster, on par with wizards and sorcerors without replacing them.

kublaikhanx
08-20-2011, 01:21 PM
quote: "And if the restrictions are fair, it would allow the artificer to be a fine caster, on par with wizards and

sorcerors without replacing them."

They are not casters; they are specialists. To make them on par with casters would be OP we are close to treading

in that water already imho.

Theolin
08-20-2011, 01:27 PM
does anyone know if the passive +2 wand dc from wiz past life work with the capstone? or how it will work, just wands or everything?

Isolani
08-21-2011, 12:19 AM
does anyone know if the passive +2 wand dc from wiz past life work with the capstone? or how it will work, just wands or everything?

It seems like it should, with 3 wiz past lives and capstone I would expect wands to be at CL25 and +6 DC from past lives. With wand heightening enhancements I guess you could get a decent DC for phantasmal killer wands, maybe 40ish DC or so with a good int stat. Not as good a spell as finger of death, circle of death, etc...but not too shabby for something that costs no sp. Maybe they will put in a Wail of the Banshee wand =)

silvertrit
08-21-2011, 12:54 AM
No they do not step on rogue toes.
No Evasion
No Improved Evasion
High will Low reflex fort saves
Only +1 Int chance w/T3 same as a splash AM wiz, but if you want IPS you need 19 dex.
No SA dice.
same HD D6

do you think giving up there capstone is worth evasion. I DON'T. And well any splash rogue steps on rogue toes if all you thinking about is traps which you never should same as thinking a wiz/sorc is your buff bot or your Clr/FvS is your heal bot.

I am not in anyway worried that rogues will be more shunned, because Artificier has Disable Device as a class skill.

I <3 Rogues.

Now to the OP they will not be as good as spell casting classes, but they will be good enough most certainly after full twinkage gear and PL+ as they will benefit from basically all PPL's and could from a majority of APL's.

I mean if you fit the AP and had 3pal pl's 15% HA add ship for 25% so Heal scroll (CL15 150+70%)+ 25%= 319 HP per scroll lt alone Human or monk and gear +'s considering self or other toons.

I know I will play with my FW,BB,CK,& CF scrolls that are hidden away someplace



I think arties have a chance of replacing bards myself

TheDjinnFor
08-21-2011, 12:58 AM
The wording isn't ambiguous to me at all. Retain Essence says nothing about clickies. Retain Essences specifies Rods, Staves and Wands.

The capstone says that you treat clickies as staves. Retain essence works on staves, therefore it works on clickies because clickes are treated as staves. If it wanted to be clear that treating clickies as staves only applies for the purposes of adding caster level and int modifier to DCs, it would use language like:

"You treat any equipped item that casts spells (such as scrolls, wands, rods, or other activated items) as if they were staves for the purposes of determining caster level and save DC's; you use your caster level as well as determine the save DC's using your Intelligence if it would be better than the base item's."

Which is consistent with PnP language and wording and avoids ambiguity. This is similar to language like "Half-elves are treated as elves", "half-orcs are treated as orcs", etc.

The way it currently is worded, you "treat scrolls, wands, rods or other activated items as if they were staves". Period. Then, in case you don't already know, it explains how staves work.

Calebro
08-21-2011, 01:50 AM
The way it currently is worded, you "treat scrolls, wands, rods or other activated items as if they were staves". Period. Then, in case you don't already know, it explains how staves work.

In case you didn't know, that's not how staves work. Staves that cast spells always have a caster level listed.

I understand the way that it would be interpreted in PnP, but I doubt that's the way that it was coded here.
I guess we'll just have to test it. Looks like I'll be leveling on Lama tomorrow. I wasn't planning on capping that toon as I felt I had a good enough understanding of the class, but now I want to test that capstone and see if Retain Essences also applies to clickies.
My gut tells me that they aren't coded to have Retain Essence apply.

LeLoric
08-21-2011, 01:57 AM
In case you didn't know, that's not how staves work. Staves that cast spells always have a caster level listed.

I understand the way that it would be interpreted in PnP, but I doubt that's the way that it was coded here.
I guess we'll just have to test it. Looks like I'll be leveling on Lama tomorrow. I wasn't planning on capping that toon as I felt I had a good enough understanding of the class, but now I want to test that capstone and see if Retain Essences also applies to clickies.
My gut tells me that they aren't coded to have Retain Essence apply.

Retain essence does not apply to standard clickies. Divine power clickies haste clickes planar girds always lose the one charge on activation. Wands do work with the retain. Unsure on some specifics like staff of arcane power.

Calebro
08-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Retain essence does not apply to standard clickies. Divine power clickies haste clickes planar girds always lose the one charge on activation. Wands do work with the retain. Unsure on some specifics like staff of arcane power.

Thank you.
That coincides with Retain Essences not mentioning anything about them.

Like I said, I understand what the PnP interpretation would be, but we're not dealing with interpretations, we're dealing with coding. And since Retain Essence didn't say anything about clickies, there's no reason to think that it would work on them.
They coded Retain Essence to work on rods, staves, and wands. Just because some flavor text says that you treat clickies as if they were staves does not actually make them staves. As they are not actually staves, they are not coded to Retain Essence.
They would literally have to code for every single type of item in the game if clickies were allowed.
Like I said, we're not dealing with interpretation here, we're dealing with coding.

So perhaps they should have used the description that Djinn provided instead:

"You treat any equipped item that casts spells (such as scrolls, wands, rods, or other activated items) as if they were staves for the purposes of determining caster level and save DC's; you use your caster level as well as determine the save DC's using your Intelligence if it would be better than the base item's."

TreknaQudane
08-21-2011, 02:12 AM
Derail slightly...

I'm thinking that my 'Caster' Artificer is going to be a Dog focused Artificer, with the ability to keep it alive doing damage while my weaker spells or scrolls deal with the trash.

I've a very rough character on Llama right now that is a Half-Elf Artificer with the Wizard Dilettante. Running at level quests when I was first able to use Wands of Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt they were unfortunately more effective than my rune arms (but less than the more than likely to be nerfed repeater). The bonus to CL on wands, scrolls, and clickies is interesting for sure... Too bad that scrolls are slow to activate (No quicken.. ugh) and and the DCs of those items will otherwise suck until 20. Getting there is the problem as is actually gearing up for there without requiring a stupid number of past life feats to set it up to be viable.

HarveyMilk
08-21-2011, 02:18 AM
My question is, when they finally put in the 'caster' pre, what are we going to see? Will metamagics just take extra charges? Doubtful. Not with the hugely inflated economy in DDO. Newer players will be at a huge disadvantage while long-term players will have a huge, game-breaking, advantage.

So, extra charges, plus sp? No, this just compounds the above problem. The sp usage on the metamagics would have to be low due to the lower sp pool compared with arcanes and divines. Players with plat and sp pots would be at a huge, game-breaking advantage.

So what's left?

Cooldowns? Maybe essences as 'fuel?'

Calebro
08-21-2011, 02:21 AM
My question is, when they finally put in the 'caster' pre, what are we going to see? Will metamagics just take extra charges? Doubtful. Not with the hugely inflated economy in DDO. Newer players will be at a huge disadvantage while long-term players will have a huge, game-breaking, advantage.

So, extra charges, plus sp? No, this just compounds the above problem. The sp usage on the metamagics would have to be low due to the lower sp pool compared with arcanes and divines. Players with plat and sp pots would be at a huge, game-breaking advantage.

So what's left?

Cooldowns? Maybe essences as 'fuel?'

The post about a caster PrE applying metas to wands and scrolls was complete speculation and hopefulness. There's not even any indication at this point that Artys will get a "caster PrE" so this is all a moot point at the moment.

The fact of the matter is that the Artificer capstone was probably created the way that it was in order to fill the gap that Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Spell Completion left open.
As they would probably be extremely difficult to implement, their Capstone is a decent alternative in their place.

TreknaQudane
08-21-2011, 02:27 AM
For what it's worth, that Half-Elf Artificer also had the Mark of Storm... it was nice supplemental damage taking advantage of a spell enhancement line I already had. I'd probably not keep it on a live character however as my Charisma wasn't high enough for a good DC

HarveyMilk
08-21-2011, 02:57 AM
For what it's worth, that Half-Elf Artificer also had the Mark of Storm... it was nice supplemental damage taking advantage of a spell enhancement line I already had. I'd probably not keep it on a live character however as my Charisma wasn't high enough for a good DC

Hmm, interesting. I wonder if a high int/cha build art would be able to reach umd that other arts can't? Or can arts already cast everything that has any umd at all with a dumped cha?

TheDjinnFor
08-21-2011, 03:00 AM
In case you didn't know, that's not how staves work. Staves that cast spells always have a caster level listed.

Staves as per PnP haven't been implemented in DDO (afaik).


A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

I'm talking actual PnP staves here (and clearly so is the capstone; note the underlined part above, which is the whole point of making a staff), not stick-shaped weapons with clickies, which is what 99% of DDO "staves" are. Besides, staves in PnP (and, if ever implemented in DDO) still need a caster level because of UMD.

Epic Staff of Arcane Power is about as close as you can get to a PnP staff (50 charges, choice of a few spells, etc.), but it's already at CL 20 anyways. I'm not sure, but maybe it also lets you use your CL instead (like if you're a sorceror with an appropriate prestige enhancement).

TreknaQudane
08-21-2011, 03:00 AM
Hmm, interesting. I wonder if a high int/cha build art would be able to reach umd that other arts can't? Or can arts already cast everything that has any umd at all with a dumped cha?

They already get +2 on the checks from the Artificer Knowledge feats and can get +4 UMD via enhancements at a cost of .. 4 AP .. That can do a bit to make up for poor CHA

Calebro
08-21-2011, 03:12 AM
I know how PnP staves work, but thanks for proving my point for me.

Let's rearrange your post for a moment and reflect, shall we?


I'm talking actual PnP staves here

Staves as per PnP haven't been implemented in DDO (afaik).

So I think you've answered your own question.
Your previous addition of "for the purposes of" seems the be the relevant and missing part. The flavor text (and that's what it was) is explaining that they will be treated just like a staff would be in PnP. That's the point of that line.
But once again, it comes down to coding.

andbr22
08-21-2011, 04:27 AM
Keep in mind that curently we have only 1 tier I PrE presented that is battle speced.
We have like only Warchanter-artificer, and as we all know WC aren't casters We still missing SpellSinger-Artificer that would be casting speced (maybe around useing empower, maximalized, hightened cliekies).

TreknaQudane
08-21-2011, 10:13 AM
Keep in mind that curently we have only 1 tier I PrE presented that is battle speced.
We have like only Warchanter-artificer, and as we all know WC aren't casters We still missing SpellSinger-Artificer that would be casting speced (maybe around useing empower, maximalized, hightened cliekies).

Wild assumptions don't help planning however.

TheDjinnFor
08-25-2011, 12:00 PM
Your previous addition of "for the purposes of" seems the be the relevant and missing part. The flavor text (and that's what it was) is explaining that they will be treated just like a staff would be in PnP. That's the point of that line.

Surprise! It's actually explaining how staves work in DDO now.


NEW: All spells cast from two-handed staves now use the wielder's caster level as well as calculate their DC's using the wielder's casting ability score, if they are better than the staff's default values.