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KillEveryone
08-19-2011, 11:50 PM
It is quite annoying to have to be in sneak mode to use this ability.

Things move too fast and you really have to get out of sneak mode to keep up and pop into sneak just to use the ability and wait another 15 seconds for the cool down.

I'd like to be able to use the assassinate without being in sneak mode, especially if I don't have aggro and the critter isn't facing me.

RuneDude
08-20-2011, 12:14 AM
naw, assassinate in a good ability and it makes sense. its just part of the cost of using the ability. Monks get quivering palm without needing to be in sneak but it cost ki, but a rogue has no sp or ki, just a cooldown, so rogues have to be sneaking as its "cost". Plus it has a good save, full level to DC. It can be frustrating and personally I actually have spared 3 ap's for the first two tiers of faster sneaking. Helps some, and wish I could take more but the 3 points are all I can justify :). Besides it would feel cheap if the sneaking prereq was taken away. just my 2

Lavek
08-20-2011, 05:06 AM
/not signed

its things like this that make players better, not just generic easy buttons for everything

Kmnh
08-20-2011, 05:09 AM
/signed

DDO's best feature is fast-paced combat. Sneak mode is the opposite of that. In its current implementation, assassinate is useless for me.

Teharahma
08-20-2011, 05:16 AM
In groups, just let party take lead by a second or something, after aggro, run ahead, jump over the mob hit sneak, hit it. Repeat every 15secs.

Hendrik
08-20-2011, 07:06 AM
/NOT signed.

More ranks in faster sneaking will help you keep up.

Don't attack what everyone else is, helps keep you in sneak.

Go after something else in the back of the fray.

Wait an extra SECOND or two for your target to stop moving.

Without even trying an Assassin ROG can easily maintain lead kill count and 75% of them will be assassinates.

CrushingInklings
08-20-2011, 07:11 AM
/NOT signed.

You do not even need ranks in faster sneaking to do this well. Got to learn the jump/sneak combo before assassination. Its very easy to get this off with out sneaking around all the time. Don't get agro or use invis scrolls/clickies if soloing or with a slow group.

MrLarone
08-20-2011, 07:12 AM
/NOT signed.

i'm really enjoying my pure rogue ATM exactly because it's slower.

having got too used to zerging i'm enjoying the change of pace, and as i've got high move silently i can keep moving ahead of the party and not worry about aggro.

by getting ahead of the party i'm able to postion myself to take out the caster immediately, which is the point of being a assassin imo.

sneak more not less!

suszterpatt
08-20-2011, 09:42 AM
Faster sneaking, striding boots, haste, jump trick, and let's not forget good ole prediction of enemy movement. There's plenty of ways to counter the slow sneak speed on an assassin.

/not signed, this doesn't need to be any easier

macubrae
08-20-2011, 10:16 AM
Casters and archers don't move around as much. I like to get into position, call the group in and do what I love. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy as they get cold and clammy.

Kinerd
08-20-2011, 04:59 PM
/not signed

its things like this that make players better, not just generic easy buttons for everythingI would argue that in the majority of the cases, trying to use assassinate at all is a mistake on the part of the player. Look at the (correct) advice given in this very thread: "Wait an extra SECOND or two", "i'm really enjoying my pure rogue ATM exactly because it's slower.", "I like to get into position, call the group in and do what I love." All that DPS frittered down the drain, and for what? So you can get a closer view of the FoD icon? Rogues are dramatically inferior to casters at clearing trash, not having to fool around with sneak mode isn't going to change that.

suszterpatt
08-20-2011, 05:47 PM
I would argue that in the majority of the cases, trying to use assassinate at all is a mistake on the part of the player. Look at the (correct) advice given in this very thread: "Wait an extra SECOND or two", "i'm really enjoying my pure rogue ATM exactly because it's slower.", "I like to get into position, call the group in and do what I love." All that DPS frittered down the drain, and for what? So you can get a closer view of the FoD icon? Rogues are dramatically inferior to casters at clearing trash, not having to fool around with sneak mode isn't going to change that.Rogues are dramatically inferior to casters at clearing trash right up until the caster runs out of SP to spare. Yeah, ok, decent casters practically never do, but that's what you get when people repeat the same quests over and over again and know exactly what they're up against up front. And it's not like those spells don't have timers.

Between vorpal sneak attacks and infinite assassinates, rogues are very capable of keeping the instakills coming at a slow but steady pace.

KillEveryone
08-20-2011, 09:14 PM
coming at a slow but steady pace.

And the red is why it is annoying.

It is slow.

Stuff is already dead or just needs another swipe of my weapon to kill it. By the time I can get into sneak without aggro, there is no point in having the assassinate ability.

It is just quicker for me to DPS it down.

Even with faster sneaking and a huge supply of haste pots that I'm perm hasted, the party still moves too fast to bother with this ability. You can't sneak fast enough to keep up with a hasted party.

Add a longer cooldown to compensate but I find it really stupid to have to be in sneak mode when I don't have aggro to use it.

~Cavalier9999
08-20-2011, 09:27 PM
/signed

Not likely to happen though. Turbine has no love for rogues. I.e., remove autocrats but no 50% bonus for SA, increased fortification on bosses. If we get anything it will be another ill considered swing of the nerf bat.

SableShadow
08-20-2011, 09:45 PM
I can think of a lotta different rogue love ... off the cuff assassinate ain't one of them. Work on damage on reds/purples ... that's where the money is, not more effectiveness on trash.

And for crying out loud ... a longer cooldown? Pass.

1) Hotbar your sneak and assassinate
2) Run in just behind the barbie
3) ?
4) Profit

Nataichal
08-20-2011, 09:57 PM
I really don't see how there can be many complaints regarding this. I have a 43 DC Assassin who regularly takes mobs out on epic and can lead in kill counts easily. She's my favorite character to play. Its all a matter of learning how to assassinate, and when. You're a rogue, not a tank. Having to slip through the shadows is all part of the character.

The satisfaction of a successful stalking is part of the fun

KillEveryone
08-20-2011, 11:15 PM
I do know how to use it.

It is just annoying to use it.

I like playing my rogue but this feature is annoying.

I don't care about kill count, just want to use features of the class. This one is just annoying to use.



1) Hotbar your sneak and assassinate
2) Run in just behind the barbie
3) ?
4) Profit

I have sneak on my hot bar right next to my assassinate.

If you have a reason against it, fine.

If you just want to tell me I don't know what I'm doing, then you are doing it wrong.

For crying out loud, I've been playing long enough to know how to put stuff on the hot bar.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-21-2011, 12:45 AM
I zerge Assassinate all the time.

Scrolls of Invis help. Jump, sneak Assassinate.

It's really all about agro though.

Faster Sneaking IV helps. 30% Striders and Haste pots.

You have to be able to pounce quickly.

Learn to predict monsters movement. It's easier to take out casters and archers.

I go invis. Run to the back of the monster mob, Assasinate casters, SA archers.
Then poiunce on melee monsters from behind...usually with another Assassinate from jump...and usually a double as the melee ones are close together trying to beat on the party's tanks.

Plenty of kills and very fast action. Assassinate does not have to be slow. You just have to know what to go after, and mostly how to manage agro.

TheDjinnFor
08-21-2011, 01:16 AM
Ran an EClaw the other day, the str/int hybrid rogue was rocking a 45 assassinate DC. He had absolutely no problem outkilling the entire party combined, even after the caster of the group insta-killed his way through the entire fire giant section.

Please learn how to play an assassinate rogue before crying about how hard it is to sneak attack effectively.

Run at the mob, jump, hit the sneak button, then the assassinate button, then the sneak button again. Problem solved.

Quarterling
08-21-2011, 01:43 AM
/not signed

its things like this that make players better, not just generic easy buttons for everything

This.

DragonTroy
08-21-2011, 02:00 AM
assassinate works great the way it is. don't try to fix what isn't broken. oh, and faster sneaking IV is totally worth it. and an automatic bye bye epic caster button (unless they roll a 20, but whatever)

in summation:

/not signed

but thank you for putting up a thread about rogues that wasn't miss spelled in the title

Lavek
08-21-2011, 02:26 AM
I would argue that in the majority of the cases, trying to use assassinate at all is a mistake on the part of the player. Look at the (correct) advice given in this very thread: "Wait an extra SECOND or two", "i'm really enjoying my pure rogue ATM exactly because it's slower.", "I like to get into position, call the group in and do what I love." All that DPS frittered down the drain, and for what? So you can get a closer view of the FoD icon? Rogues are dramatically inferior to casters at clearing trash, not having to fool around with sneak mode isn't going to change that.

I didnt write I support their opinions, they should too practice more if they are slow...what can I tell you...if you want fast insta kills without much technique roll up arcane...


being a rog is all about skill and prediction...as the time goes by with you playing that class, youll see it too

and yes...jump trick is more than enough if used right

suszterpatt
08-21-2011, 04:12 AM
And the red is why it is annoying.

It is slow.

Stuff is already dead or just needs another swipe of my weapon to kill it. By the time I can get into sneak without aggro, there is no point in having the assassinate ability.

It is just quicker for me to DPS it down.

Even with faster sneaking and a huge supply of haste pots that I'm perm hasted, the party still moves too fast to bother with this ability. You can't sneak fast enough to keep up with a hasted party.

Add a longer cooldown to compensate but I find it really stupid to have to be in sneak mode when I don't have aggro to use it.You're doing something very wrong.

You only need to sneak if you're ahead of the party. Run ahead of the group, and hit sneak right before encountering enemies. Or run slightly behind them to let the tanks get aggro. Either way, you should have no trouble getting assassinate attempts off. A lot of others sure don't.

Between faster sneaking IV and 30% striding boots, my rogue sneaks almost as fast as normal characters run. I don't even have to bother with the jumping tactic, and it lets me pull off double assassinates on mobs who are some distance apart.

May I ask, in a totally non-challenging way, how long you've been playing an assassin?

Emizand
08-21-2011, 04:15 AM
/not signed

LOve it the way it is. Go solo the vale slayers. You will soon get the hang of using it, then slip it into group play.

.Revenga.
08-21-2011, 04:24 AM
Assasinating a mob charging past you is an art, master it :-p

TimethiefXVI
08-21-2011, 07:24 AM
make it assasin III no longer needs to sneak to deliver assasinate and i will sign it

suszterpatt
08-21-2011, 08:19 AM
Being in sneak mode is the single most limiting factor of pulling off an assassinate (besides the timer of course). Getting a sneak attack is a non-effort, succeeding on your attack roll even more so due to SA bonuses, and the DC can be high enough for epic mobs to consistently fail the save. I'd wager that the reason for 90% of my failed assassinates is getting knocked out of sneak mode between my pressing the button and the hit connecting (which results in the "you're in the wrong stance..." message). The other 10% come from me rolling 1 on the attack or the mob rolling 20 on their save.

Not requiring sneak mode would make Assassinate crazy overpowered.

Cap_Man
08-21-2011, 10:03 AM
My ability to quickly assassinate really increased once I mapped 'R' to Sneak and 'F' to Assassinate. so two quick twitches from my index finger = dead mob.

I will usually tumble backwards right after I make an assassination attempt (unless I want to remain in sneak mode) as this will break sneak mode.

Run+Jump+Sneak while airborn+assassinate works very well.

Go for the double!

Mob casters are dangerous whimps! Take them out first!

With proper key mapping, tons of practice and mad twitch skills the Assassin can be a very fast paced play style. Throw 'tumble' in there for even more fun :D

Kinerd
08-21-2011, 04:19 PM
Being in sneak mode is the single most limiting factor of pulling off an assassinate (besides the timer of course). Getting a sneak attack is a non-effort, succeeding on your attack roll even more so due to SA bonuses, and the DC can be high enough for epic mobs to consistently fail the save. I'd wager that the reason for 90% of my failed assassinates is getting knocked out of sneak mode between my pressing the button and the hit connecting (which results in the "you're in the wrong stance..." message). The other 10% come from me rolling 1 on the attack or the mob rolling 20 on their save.

Not requiring sneak mode would make Assassinate crazy overpowered.Finger of Death has a shorter cooldown, much longer range, is much easier to attain a high DC without impacting the arcane's other abilities, is one of the arcane's many instant death abilities, and requires no special stance. Removing one of five inferiorities isn't going to make anything overpowered, especially with rogue boss DPS getting stomped in update 11.

I have to say, I find the criticisms of the idea pretty baffling.

Qezuzu
08-21-2011, 04:26 PM
Assassins can already shred up kill counts, including my assassin.

Not needed.

TheDearLeader
08-21-2011, 04:38 PM
I see a lot of people thinking that sneak mode is good for Assassinate. I can go with that. As many have said, the jump -> sneak mode trick works well, as does having speed buffs and faster sneaking enhancement lines.

Let me propose an alternative, then, that I think could be better: a better sneak mode.
What do I mean by this?

In the current Sneak Mode, Sneak Mode is broken if:

A mob hits you. This includes cleave attacks, which increasingly more monsters have, and stray arrows.
A mob misses you. As in, your AC beats their to-hit + 1d20. The game still registers that something *tried* to hit you, though, so sneak mode is broken. Again, this applies to cleaves/stray arrows.
A mob fails to hit you due to Blur/Displace effects. Again, because the game had to roll a "chance to hit you", Sneak Mode is broken. There go those nasty cleaves/arrows again.
A mob fails to hit you while you are Blurred/Displaced, have an AC that beats their BAB + a roll of a 19 on a d20, and what's more, you're in sneak mode *and*, *and*... invisible. Invisibility is preserved, but Sneak Mode is not, therefore all relevant mobs in an area get an instant Listen check for you, and that Invisibility is as good as useless. Even if you leave the area entirely, mobs will throw daggers/axes/shoot bows at you from unreasonably long distances, over pieces of terrain, to the point that even with max draw distance enabled, you cannot successfully return fire.


All these make Assassination, as it is, "buggy". Places with heavy cleaving mobs, such as Amrath, or lots of Ranged combat, such as Archers in OoB, or even worse, Repeaters (I'm looking at YOU, U11) are pretty much a hit or miss on whether you've got a successfully Assassination attempt or a useless 15 second cooldown. Note here that I say "attempt" - not a successful Assassinate, but at least to see the save dialogue would be better than dropping out of combat to go into sneak mode, then losing a swing because a Barbazu popped in and swung at the guy beside/behind/in front of me.

So, the solution:

Add a new ability to Assassin II. Enemy mobs can no longer break you out of stealth mode.

Of course, if you are soloing, and you run square into a mob? They still detect you, as do other enemies especially close. But it would mean that in party situations where you attempt to use your Assassinate.. well, at least you get an attempt to go with the cooldown.


Finger of Death has a shorter cooldown, much longer range, is much easier to attain a high DC without impacting the arcane's other abilities, is one of the arcane's many instant death abilities, and requires no special stance. Removing one of five inferiorities isn't going to make anything overpowered, especially with rogue boss DPS getting stomped in update 11.


I will also add to this, that none of an Arcane's Insta-kills require an attack roll, as well. They target a mob, press a button. Save or be screwed. Also, considering most of the methods we've described mean that the Rogue is on the move, we suffer a -4 penalty to that attack roll for being mobile.
I add the caveat that yes, some mobs have "Spell Resistance", which acts almost like an attack roll for an Arcane. While I do acknowledge this, I also maintain that Rogues must make an attack roll 100% of the time, whilst Arcanes only have to do so on a case-by-case basis. Also, Arcanes can still succeed a Spell Penetration check on a 1, whereas Rogues will autofail 5% of all Assassinates due to rolling a 1.

Miow
08-21-2011, 04:49 PM
The only thing i see wrong is when your sneaking and get hit by random swings(not agro'd) it pops your out of sneak if they could at least change that.

TheDearLeader
08-21-2011, 11:48 PM
The only thing i see wrong is when your sneaking and get hit by random swings(not agro'd) it pops your out of sneak if they could at least change that.

Which is basically what I suggested right above you. I just use entirely too many words. >.<

So... no one else has any thoughts on the matter? Assassinate's a good ability, don't get me wrong. Love it on my Rogue. Steal kills from Gambit all the time. But the whole issue with sneak mode being broken because a kitten sneezed in your direction is annoying.

suszterpatt
08-22-2011, 01:30 AM
If you remove the ability of being knocked out of sneak mode, you might as well remove the requirement of sneak mode entirely. That's the entire point of requiring sneak mode: it takes skill to maintain.

And I'd like to reiterate my earlier point that yes, casters are better at instakills, as long as they have the spell points for them.

Also, beholders.

xandariant
08-22-2011, 02:32 AM
/Not signed.
It is well balanced and its not vorpal hit for all. Go dark monk if you want to kill most fast every few sec.


/signed
DDO's best feature is fast-paced combat. Sneak mode is the opposite of that. In its current implementation, assassinate is useless for me.
Answer is in Hendrik:

/NOT signed.

More ranks in faster sneaking will help you keep up.
Don't attack what everyone else is, helps keep you in sneak.
Go after something else in the back of the fray.
Wait an extra SECOND or two for your target to stop moving.
Without even trying an Assassin ROG can easily maintain lead kill count and 75% of them will be assassinates.
So Its good as it is. Leave it that way.

janave
08-22-2011, 06:56 AM
I'd rather see mega-backstab-crits with a prep feat/ability, and better stealth options than the current sneaking. The few cruel hits on bosses, and a great stealth escape ability would fit the rogue better.

Assassination is good but kind of pointless with a caster vaporizing entire groups in a few seconds.

Banshee, cough..

Miow
08-22-2011, 07:03 AM
If you remove the ability of being knocked out of sneak mode, you might as well remove the requirement of sneak mode entirely. That's the entire point of requiring sneak mode: it takes skill to maintain.

And I'd like to reiterate my earlier point that yes, casters are better at instakills, as long as they have the spell points for them.

Also, beholders.

How about a concentration check?

sephiroth1084
08-22-2011, 07:09 AM
/not signed

Effectively using Assassinate, particularly when running with a group, is one of the few things in DDO that actually requires a little bit of skill and timing. If you can't use Assassinate, or don't want to be bothered with sneaking, and feel that Assassin I and II feel underwhelming without the tier II ability, level as an Acrobat then swap to Assassin at 18.

If anything I'd prefer the cost for the Faster Sneaking enhancements to get dropped (10 AP for faster sneaking? Really?).

Feralthyrtiaq
08-22-2011, 07:17 AM
/NOT signed

I play rogues, I like the slower sneak assassinate style as it is. When more party members have aggro I can unleash especially at level 18 with Assassin III and vorpal sneak attacks. ThAT right there is worth any frustrations with missing an assassinate or 2.

Talon_Moonshadow
08-22-2011, 10:41 AM
Which is basically what I suggested right above you. I just use entirely too many words. >.<

So... no one else has any thoughts on the matter? Assassinate's a good ability, don't get me wrong. Love it on my Rogue. Steal kills from Gambit all the time. But the whole issue with sneak mode being broken because a kitten sneezed in your direction is annoying.

Make sure you are not in front of the kitten. :cool:

I typically let someone else open a door, or if they are slow, I open from the side.
Then I enter the room either Invised or sneaking, and I immediately take a hard right, so as to be out of a direct path between monster archers, and the rest of my party.

In any situation, I am almost always slightly off to the side of the rest of the party, for the sole purpose of not being between a potential ranged attack, or melee approach path to the rest of the party. (and I am either in sneak mode ot invised)

As I enter the room, I swing very wide in a circualr arc to the monsters in the back. I approach either from the side or back.

I target castsers first for an Assassinate. Then archers for regular SA swinging. Since the archers are already actively shooting at someone else, it takes them some time to switch agro to me....by then they are usually dead.

Then I pounce on the backs of the melee based monsters, who are usually grouped up around the rest of the tanks. This is a perfect time for a double assasinate.
If you can time your approach right after you see a monster use it's cleave attack, you can usually approach without getting knocled out of sneak mode.

If you do get knocked out of sneak mode....well..that sucks. But they'll be plenty of other monsters and times to use it. So just start swinging away on their backsides till they are all dead.

Switch targets often. If you see a target with it's back to you, pounce on it. Hit sneak in midair, and try to have fun assassinating before you even hit the ground!

My rogue kills at a very, very fast pace. I /sigh everytime I hear another Rogue player say "wait here, while I go assassinate this guy." :rolleyes:

You can also use Bluff to assassinate a guy who is actively agored on you.
You can probably use Diplo, but it seems to have a delayed effect recently. :(
Use to be I could run slightly in front of a group, jump into the middle of a mob, hit diplo, then start swinging in a circle and get all SAs. Seems slower now though. :(

Assassin III give vorpals. If I can't get off a real Assassinate, it barely matters. They will die quicky anyway.

The whole trick is not to have agro.
Sneak, Invis, or use terrain to block line of sight....just mae sur ethey see someone else first.

And swing wide to avoid archers. Circle to the back of the mobs. Take out high profile targets first, then wipe up the trash.

You can even leave the trash and zerge to the next room, to have more time to pull off some stealth tricks if you want to.

TheDearLeader
08-22-2011, 11:24 AM
Make sure you are not in front of the kitten. :cool:

*snip*

All good advice... but I'm not saying I'm having trouble playing my Rogue, man. Most parties, Epics especially, it's either me or the Wizard in the top for kill (stealing) counts.

Nevertheless, it's annoying when the cleaves/stray arrows I described from before, even when they *miss* you entirely, still break your sneak mode.

Take the front door of eTTT for example. I've given the melees in front of me a full mental three-count before popping in. Still, *one* archer out of the bunch has decided to still be aggroed onto a caster or someone still lingering behind. I pop out, stray arrow hits me, breaks stealth, and because I'm closer and suddenly broke stealth, now I'm public enemy number one. Aggro switches to me, and until someone takes the now 2-3 archers off of me, I get to hide behind a pillow and pop a couple heal scrolls before popping out with my Rad IIs... all the while never having made an Assassination attempt.

And good luck using Assassinate often in Amrath, where there is no *behind the mob* while they swing their Glaives wildly.

suszterpatt
08-22-2011, 12:50 PM
Fun fact: Orthons almost never use their whirlwind attack right after teleporting, it's always the stab-and-chop first. That's 1.5 seconds of assassinate opportunity right there if you get them from behind.

Shroud 4 is a great place to practice this. If you stand slightly forward from the zone-in point, you'll end up directly behind the Orthons who teleport directly behind whoever runs to the center first. Great way to score double and triple assassinates.

Kinerd
08-22-2011, 03:48 PM
If you remove the ability of being knocked out of sneak mode, you might as well remove the requirement of sneak mode entirely. That's the entire point of requiring sneak mode: it takes skill to maintain.

And I'd like to reiterate my earlier point that yes, casters are better at instakills, as long as they have the spell points for them.

Also, beholders.I have an easier time instant killing beholders on my caster, even solo. As for spell points, they're just a non-issue, even without any fancy toys. I have spell point issues on my caster as frequently as I have broken weapon issues on my melees.

sephiroth1084
08-22-2011, 11:35 PM
I have an easier time instant killing beholders on my caster, even solo. As for spell points, they're just a non-issue, even without any fancy toys. I have spell point issues on my caster as frequently as I have broken weapon issues on my melees.
But is killing beholders on your caster as soul-satisfying as Assassinating them?

Kinerd
08-23-2011, 04:36 PM
But is killing beholders on your caster as soul-satisfying as Assassinating them?Every excuse to use Power Word: Kill satisfies me. It makes me feel like a tough robot... guy... thing.

sephiroth1084
08-23-2011, 09:33 PM
Every excuse to use Power Word: Kill satisfies me. It makes me feel like a tough robot... guy... thing.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love fingering beholders (HA!), but it's nowhere near as satisfying as sneaking up to them and slitting their non-existent throats.

Maybe PWK will do more for me, but I haven't been able to get on DDO in a few months, so I haven't gotten to play with that yet. :(