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stricq
08-19-2011, 06:08 PM
Longbows do see a slight increase in speed with the change to Rapid Shot. However, it is nowhere near as fast as using a Crossbow nor as fast as it should be. Something is wrong with this picture. Either add more speed to the ROF for Longbows or nerf Crossbows.

Autolycus
08-19-2011, 06:12 PM
Agreed. Bows should fire faster than crossbows.

/signed

wiglin
08-19-2011, 06:18 PM
Agreed. Bows should fire faster than crossbows.

/signed

Not that I have an opinion anyway, but why should they be faster. This is a fantasy game where fireballs can shoot from your fingertips, real world physics do not mean anything.

Autolycus
08-19-2011, 06:24 PM
Not that I have an opinion anyway, but why should they be faster. This is a fantasy game where fireballs can shoot from your fingertips, real world physics do not mean anything.

Leaving real world physics out, bows have always had a higher rate of fire than crossbows in D&D.

Sleepsalot
08-19-2011, 06:27 PM
While this is true.. Cross bow all through history have been slower then any type of Bow. I have never seen any where any time that X-Bows have ever been faster...

Sleeps :D :) :D


Not that I have an opinion anyway, but why should they be faster. This is a fantasy game where fireballs can shoot from your fingertips, real world physics do not mean anything.

ballsz
08-19-2011, 06:36 PM
/signed

Aesop
08-19-2011, 06:42 PM
Longbows do see a slight increase in speed with the change to Rapid Shot. However, it is nowhere near as fast as using a Crossbow nor as fast as it should be. Something is wrong with this picture. Either add more speed to the ROF for Longbows or reduce the reload time for them.

Changed that part in Red... no need to actually nerf something that is good to match something that needs to be better

Aesop

FengXian
08-19-2011, 07:10 PM
/signed

It's not just a matter of real world physics (which are, still, quite important). The very point of a x-bow having higher base damage etc is its slower rate of fire. If it becomes higher than bow's, all balance is gone.

quijenoth
08-19-2011, 07:24 PM
I'd question are you comparing a longbow to a light crossbow? if so then yes bow should be firing faster due to its reload time.

If however you are comparing longbow to a light repeating crossbow then I would have to say the repeater should fire faster.

In D&D the main issue with bows and crossbows is that the bow can be fired up to your base attack, so a 20 fighter will fire 4 arrows compared to a 1st level fighters 1 arrow. crossbows used by a 1st or 20th fighter in D&D will only fire 1 bolt because of the reload taking a move action or more. Rapid reload made a light crossbow equal to a longbow.

Personally I've never liked the fallacy that a bow can be fired up to 4 or more times in a single round (6 second period). The only historical reference to bows in this context is the fact that the skilled english longbowman could effectively have up to 3 arrows in the air at once. Most would only fire around 6-12 arrows per minute.

In D&D terms the average 20th level fighter with rapid shot could fire 5 arrows per round, thats 50 arrows a minute!!

crossbows where certainly slower to load than longbows simply because of the tension on the string. To reload required you to either brace the crossbow with your foot (or pulled into your chest with both hands) or use a winch mechanism.

little_me
08-19-2011, 08:02 PM
Longbows do see a slight increase in speed with the change to Rapid Shot. However, it is nowhere near as fast as using a Crossbow nor as fast as it should be. Something is wrong with this picture. Either add more speed to the ROF for Longbows or nerf Crossbows.

whole thing is kind of moot point due to current bugs in crossbow firing speeds. as far as i know, it affects ALL crosbows. including light, heavy, great and both repeaters.

yes, great crossbow gets over 60 shots/minute.




I'd question are you comparing a longbow to a light crossbow? if so then yes bow should be firing faster due to its reload time.

If however you are comparing longbow to a light repeating crossbow then I would have to say the repeater should fire faster.

<snipped long tales of history>


i'd say no to that repeater firing faster. fire more bolts/minute, maybe. attacks/minute? in theory, no.
there is big difference between the two. current shoot 3 bolts at same target means that if target dies after 1st, the 2nd and 3rd bolt will be excommunicated and recalled into void between planes.

where if they were attacks (like current live repeater) you could just pick new target.

Aesop
08-19-2011, 08:58 PM
Personally I've never liked the fallacy that a bow can be fired up to 4 or more times in a single round (6 second period). The only historical reference to bows in this context is the fact that the skilled english longbowman could effectively have up to 3 arrows in the air at once. Most would only fire around 6-12 arrows per minute.

In D&D terms the average 20th level fighter with rapid shot could fire 5 arrows per round, thats 50 arrows a minute!!

crossbows where certainly slower to load than longbows simply because of the tension on the string. To reload required you to either brace the crossbow with your foot (or pulled into your chest with both hands) or use a winch mechanism.

Think about it this way... How many of those English Longbowmen were over 5th level in a high BAB class? How many of them had Rapid Shot for that matter? Maybe they had PBS and Far Shot but I wouldn't put much else on their character sheets.

The characters that we are supposed to be representing are pinnacle combatants. Historically they don't truly exist except in myth and legend.

Aesop

FengXian
08-20-2011, 03:01 AM
Personally I've never liked the fallacy that a bow can be fired up to 4 or more times in a single round (6 second period). The only historical reference to bows in this context is the fact that the skilled english longbowman could effectively have up to 3 arrows in the air at once. Most would only fire around 6-12 arrows per minute.

In D&D terms the average 20th level fighter with rapid shot could fire 5 arrows per round, thats 50 arrows a minute!!


I understand you're saying bow fire rate is too high in ddo? I agree about the historical thing, but we can't really expect the game to be true to that, or crossbows would fire like what, twice per minute? 3 times? So not really making any point there IMHO :/

waterboytkd
08-20-2011, 04:12 AM
Changed that part in Red... no need to actually nerf something that is good to match something that needs to be better

Aesop

This. There's a disturbing number of threads out there calling for nerfs to some new shiny that happens to be better than some current piece of poo. The current piece of poo is, well, a piece of poo. The new shiny should absolutely be better. AND, the devs really should take all these complaints into account and turn those pieces of poo into something good, something worth taking.

quijenoth
08-20-2011, 04:23 AM
Think about it this way... How many of those English Longbowmen were over 5th level in a high BAB class? How many of them had Rapid Shot for that matter? Maybe they had PBS and Far Shot but I wouldn't put much else on their character sheets.

The characters that we are supposed to be representing are pinnacle combatants. Historically they don't truly exist except in myth and legend.

Aesop

Yeah I know where supposed to be heroes but the game is still based on real world physics. the english longbowman was the feared combatants of the english army because of their skill. the rate of fire they produced was also with ideal circumstances (they fired over a wall when told by a lookout when their opponents where in range, they never had to move to avoid combat, they had the arrows lined up infront of them so they could see the next arrow to load, and they had porters fetching more arrows for them.) these circumstances are not present for dungeon delving heroes.

We all want characters like hawk the slayer, or legolas and Im happy for that to be the case in D&D, but what i dont like is people comparing crossbows to bows in real world ways when clearly real world physics are bent out of shape already by D&D rules.

krackythehoodedone
08-20-2011, 04:48 AM
Easy Guys

All they are doing is trying out differing things on Lamania.

First it was to slow. And how the Xbowmwn wailed.

Now its too fast and every Archer in the game runs to the Forums at ''ludicrous'' speed

To vent their outrage at this affrontery to the ''good ole honest'' and much reviled Bowman

Its kinda amusing. We should all stand around in a field and say ''baaaaaaaa'' a lot

mystafyi
08-20-2011, 05:24 AM
While this is true.. Cross bow all through history have been slower then any type of Bow. I have never seen any where any time that X-Bows have ever been faster...



Sun Tzu's forces had a repeater xbow around 500BC that fired 10 shots in rapid fire. Not very useful outside of 30 yards, but it was faster then bows of the day.

quijenoth
08-20-2011, 06:11 AM
Sun Tzu's forces had a repeater xbow around 500BC that fired 10 shots in rapid fire. Not very useful outside of 30 yards, but it was faster then bows of the day.
repeaters where ment to be faster, this is the historical point that automation speeds up and improves modern life. just like the car, train, computer and everything else we use today. Its technology and in eberron technology is merged with magic so why not have magic that makes crossbows reload automatically? then they would be faster than bows.

I dont think tagging all this speed increase into rapid reload is a good idea though, with artificers getting it at level 1 they are obviously causing a balance issue with regards to the bow vs xbow discussions.

Malky
08-20-2011, 06:19 AM
Personally I've never liked the fallacy that a bow can be fired up to 4 or more times in a single round (6 second period). The only historical reference to bows in this context is the fact that the skilled english longbowman could effectively have up to 3 arrows in the air at once. Most would only fire around 6-12 arrows per minute.

Hum, did you ever wield a real 2-handed sword in your hands ? THF swings-per-minute is just as out of reality scope as a bowman firing 50 arrows per minute, if not more.

There's a really big difference between aiming a shot at someone, and spilling arrows toward an opposite army that takes half the battle field. IRL i can sustain over 20 shots per minute (for.. about one minute before i'm breathed out :D) if i don't care about precision, and i consider myself light-years behind what middle-age bowmen were able to do.

Try to swing a 8-10 kg 2-handed sword while faking a battle and look how imprecise and slow you are.

On the crossbow side, my personnal experience is that it does shoot at most about half as much bolts as a bowman can shoot arrows, given both are equally skilled and look after the same precision. But that's with modern crossbows, i didn't have a chance yet to test a vintage crossbow (which i did with a couple melee weapons, a full plate armor and some other middle-age war tools)

Aesop
08-20-2011, 06:52 AM
Yeah I know where supposed to be heroes but the game is still based on real world physics. the english longbowman was the feared combatants of the english army because of their skill. the rate of fire they produced was also with ideal circumstances (they fired over a wall when told by a lookout when their opponents where in range, they never had to move to avoid combat, they had the arrows lined up infront of them so they could see the next arrow to load, and they had porters fetching more arrows for them.) these circumstances are not present for dungeon delving heroes.

We all want characters like hawk the slayer, or legolas and Im happy for that to be the case in D&D, but what i dont like is people comparing crossbows to bows in real world ways when clearly real world physics are bent out of shape already by D&D rules.

I would say again though that they may have been hell on a battlefield where they were primarily using the fire and forget method (we shall fight in the shade... sorta ;) ) also known as the, "if I put enough steel in the air I'm bound to hit something" method. I still would not place them on the high end of BAB.

on top of that everything in DnD is sped up for high action and heroic adventure. I agree that going for a pure real world comparison is not likely to be useful... but we need a place to start from. After that we consider game balance and the various advantages

X-bows are a bit harder to load but are easier to learn than a Bow. I think we can agree on that.

Repeaters take time to reload but when they are loaded fire very rapidly, faster than a bow. I'd say that's a safe bet as well.

Over all then a Repeater should be a bit faster than Bow and Bow should be a little faster than X-bow.

Of course Bow has other advantages in DDO things like Many Shot and Bow Strength. Now there are a few ways for x-Bows to gain Int to damage as well, which is fine. X-bow is also considered a Simple weapon though so if it fires a little bit slower that is alright.


Aesop