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View Full Version : Point Blank Shot die bonus + Deadly Weapon spell die bonus?



Caseas
08-18-2011, 11:11 AM
I haven't done extensive testing, but the runs I've done with both of these together don't appear to work together.

I was anticipating taking my great xbow from 2d8 to 8d8 by doubling it twice, but it doesn't appear to work that way. Is this a bug?

rimble
08-18-2011, 11:13 AM
I haven't done extensive testing, but the runs I've done with both of these together don't appear to work together.

I was anticipating taking my great xbow from 2d8 to 8d8 by doubling it twice, but it doesn't appear to work that way. Is this a bug?

I think the form of increments they're going for is to keep adding your base damage...so 2d8 becomes 4d8 becomes 6d8...is that happening at least?

Cyr
08-18-2011, 11:14 AM
I haven't done extensive testing, but the runs I've done with both of these together don't appear to work together.

I was anticipating taking my great xbow from 2d8 to 8d8 by doubling it twice, but it doesn't appear to work that way. Is this a bug?

As per a discussion with Eladrin the proper way to evaluate this is as follows...

Base is 2d8. Point bank shot adds on a power which adds on to the damage of the weapon equal to base damage*1. Deadly weapons does the same thing. So the total would be 6d8.

Thrudh
08-18-2011, 11:21 AM
I'd be surprised if they stack.

Cyr
08-18-2011, 11:27 AM
I'd be surprised if they stack.

Well they should stack, just not multiply. That was kind of the whole point of making point bank shot a base damage *1 thing so that stacking would be less severe of an issue then merely mutliplying things.

TheDjinnFor
08-18-2011, 11:31 AM
I haven't done extensive testing, but the runs I've done with both of these together don't appear to work together.

I was anticipating taking my great xbow from 2d8 to 8d8 by doubling it twice, but it doesn't appear to work that way. Is this a bug?

Think of 2d8 as just 1*(2 to 16). PBS and Deadly Weapon should both add one to the multiplier at the front, so it'd be 3*(2 to 16).

For 6 to 48, i.e. 6d8

Shade
08-18-2011, 11:51 AM
Yea should be 6d8.

I believe this was the whole purpose behind the really weird wording of PBS and deadly weapons:
Your targets currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage)

If it was simply doubling it.. Then they would of just said weapons deal double base damage.

Caseas
08-18-2011, 12:25 PM
Ah, the 6d8 damage does make more sense, perhaps I was just rolling low in the 6d8 range.

Eladrin
08-18-2011, 01:36 PM
There are a handful of problems with Deadly Weapons - it wasn't supposed to be in the build because of them, but I accidentally re-enabled it.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 12:12 AM
There are a handful of problems with Deadly Weapons - it wasn't supposed to be in the build because of them, but I accidentally re-enabled it.

This still does not follow according to the books where weapons follow a progression. A 2d4 weapon goes up to 2d6 weapon a 2d6 weapon goes up to 3d6 etc. The die roll multiplier on the front is not the way the pnp progression works. Why is this spell so overpowered it totally kills bards because artificers are going to be able to buff way better then bards i.e. add more dps to others. Bah you gave artificers better buffs then bards, an offensive spell like bb, healing, and more personal dps. I have three bards. I was hoping to ignore this whole rune arm, mechanical dog, but stuck in Ebberon like so many other pnp players without a choice since no Forgotten Realms or regular 3.5 mmo came out.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 12:37 AM
Is there any chance you can change deadly weapons to self only? It is just brutal on bards.

TreknaQudane
08-23-2011, 12:42 AM
Is there any chance you can change this spell to self only? It is just brutal on bards.

Considering Artificers buff Damage only and Bards buff Attack and Damage... It's not that bad. Besides, a character can benefit from both.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 12:43 AM
Considering Artificers buff Damage only and Bards buff Attack and Damage... It's not that bad. Besides, a character can benefit from both.

Its bad when artificers add so much more damage then a bard. I do not understand this who would want a bard over an artificer in a party. What is Turbine thinking?

Auran82
08-23-2011, 12:50 AM
Its bad when artificers add so much more damage then a bard. I do not understand this who would want a bard over an artificer in a party. What is Turbine thinking?

You... could... take... both.

Nah, thats just crazy talk, sorry.

barryman5000
08-23-2011, 12:56 AM
Inspired courage is so much faster in a raid group though. By the time you pass out all the deadly weapons off of one arty, the other team with the bard just finished their raid.

Seriously, I won't be casting that spell on everyone. Maybe me and the frenzied beserker Barb with seeker +10.

If they did anything they could make the cool down longer. Personal buff would be fine too. I don't think its OP as it is though.

TreknaQudane
08-23-2011, 12:57 AM
Its bad when artificers add so much more damage then a bard. I do not understand this who would want a bard over an artificer in a party. What is Turbine thinking?

Once more... A character can benefit from both.

Boosting Damage doesn't mean anything if people need the attack to actually land the blows more reliably.

Coldin
08-23-2011, 12:58 AM
Deadly Weapons eats into an Artificer's sp pool. Bard songs are basically free (beyond the enhancement investment).

Thing is, without Deadly Weapons, I'm still not sure what else an Artificer would be bringing to your average raid group.

((Off-topic, but I would like the devs to look at Radiant Forcefield. The duration and the cooldown doesn't seem right. It's not that powerful of a spell.))

altrocks
08-23-2011, 01:10 AM
Deadly Weapons eats into an Artificer's sp pool. Bard songs are basically free (beyond the enhancement investment).

Thing is, without Deadly Weapons, I'm still not sure what else an Artificer would be bringing to your average raid group.

((Off-topic, but I would like the devs to look at Radiant Forcefield. The duration and the cooldown doesn't seem right. It's not that powerful of a spell.))

Artificer can

- add 1*(Weapon base damage) to anyone/everyone in the group.
- add extra elemental damage to anyone/everyone in the group
- offer a semi-permanent haste to anyone/everyone in the group
- fire a repeating machine gun.. I mean crossbow for 6 seconds of every 30 with tons of self-buffs and additional damage on it (Base weapon damage, plus enchanted effects on weapon, plus added rune arm damage type on the weapon, plus any artificer weapon/personal buff, plus possible PBS range damage increase)
- count as 2 players of the same level when their pet is added in (a caster/repeater rogue and a fighter)

So, really... they're adding a lot. I can't wait to see Shrouds with 6 artificers firing off Repeaters with endless fusilade from range while throwing mass repairs as their dogs tear up harry while firing their rune arms as they charge up. You think DoTs were bad from sorcs? Just wait.

TreknaQudane
08-23-2011, 01:17 AM
- count as 2 players of the same level when their pet is added in (a caster/repeater rogue and a fighter)


That dog is not of value of another player. It may have HP but the AI is complete trash as of now. If anything the artificer will waste more time trying to get it to do what it needs to do than is worth the hassle.

True Story: With only one mob being fought, the dog recided after twenty seconds of combat that he was done and ran back to my side and did nothing for a few seconds while the mob now decided to beat on my Artificer.

Coldin
08-23-2011, 01:18 AM
Artificer can

- add 1*(Weapon base damage) to anyone/everyone in the group.
- add extra elemental damage to anyone/everyone in the group
- offer a semi-permanent haste to anyone/everyone in the group
- fire a repeating machine gun.. I mean crossbow for 6 seconds of every 30 with tons of self-buffs and additional damage on it (Base weapon damage, plus enchanted effects on weapon, plus added rune arm damage type on the weapon, plus any artificer weapon/personal buff, plus possible PBS range damage increase)
- count as 2 players of the same level when their pet is added in (a caster/repeater rogue and a fighter)

So, really... they're adding a lot. I can't wait to see Shrouds with 6 artificers firing off Repeaters with endless fusilade from range while throwing mass repairs as their dogs tear up harry while firing their rune arms as they charge up. You think DoTs were bad from sorcs? Just wait.

In red doesn't stack.

Semi-perma-haste...sorta. It doesn't come with movement speed, and has to be individually cast on each person. Very mana intensive to keep that up on a party at all times.

Endless Fusillade is awesome, but I don't think it's something to really take an artificer for. Melee classes can deal out some great damage, and rangers can use Manyshot as many times as they want and for 20 seconds instead of 6.

I'm still waiting to see what rune arms can really do. I'd be trying out one myself on Lamannia, but the best luck I've had getting one was in Delera's. I'm very curious to see what a fully charged rune-arm with max enhancements, potency, and a crit can do.

Edit: The dog is nice, and certainly useful for soloing. But in groups and raids, it's more just going to be a bit of extra DPS, and might end up requiring too much babysitting. (Haven't been on a raid with one yet to say one way or the other.)

TreknaQudane
08-23-2011, 01:19 AM
In red doesn't stack.

Semi-perma-haste...sorta. It doesn't come with movement speed, and has to be individually cast on each person. Very mana intensive to keep that up on a party at all times.

Endless Fusillade is awesome, but I don't think it's something to really take an artificer for. Melee classes can deal out some great damage, and rangers can use Manyshot as many times as they want and for 20 seconds instead of 6.

I'm still waiting to see what rune arms can really do. I'd be trying out one myself on Lamannia, but the best luck I've had getting one was in Delera's. I'm very curious to see what a fully charged rune-arm with max enhancements, potency, and a crit can do.

I'm expecting the damage to be less than the Pale Master abilities. due to the time it takes to charge, fire, and cool down the runearm

Dark-Star
08-23-2011, 01:44 AM
Like I said to you before, +9 damage from a bard is better than deadly weapons for many weapon types.

Just because you like bards does not mean that one of the best abilities artificers get should be nerfed.

Dark-Star
08-23-2011, 01:48 AM
Artificer can

- add 1*(Weapon base damage) to anyone/everyone in the group.
- add extra elemental damage to anyone/everyone in the group Does not stack with the above.
- offer a semi-permanent haste to anyone/everyone in the groupNo run speed increase, and who in this day and age does not have a haste clickie or two?
- fire a repeating machine gun.. I mean crossbow for 6 seconds of every 30 with tons of self-buffs and additional damage on it (Base weapon damage, plus enchanted effects on weapon, plus added rune arm damage type on the weapon, plus any artificer weapon/personal buff, plus possible PBS range damage increase)Arti's start with only 5 boosts, so this ability is limited. It also is on the same timer as Damage Boost.
- count as 2 players of the same level when their pet is added in (a caster/repeater rogue and a fighter)The pet is hardly as good as another player. At best it's an unreliable DoT.

So, really... they're adding a lot. I can't wait to see Shrouds with 6 artificers firing off Repeaters with endless fusilade from range while throwing mass repairs as their dogs tear up harry while firing their rune arms as they charge up. You think DoTs were bad from sorcs? Just wait.You actually missed several of the things that make Arti's really powerful.

Replies in red.

altrocks
08-23-2011, 01:50 AM
That dog is not of value of another player. It may have HP but the AI is complete trash as of now. If anything the artificer will waste more time trying to get it to do what it needs to do than is worth the hassle.

True Story: With only one mob being fought, the dog recided after twenty seconds of combat that he was done and ran back to my side and did nothing for a few seconds while the mob now decided to beat on my Artificer.

I've had this happen to me, too. Was running VoN1 and the dog decided to turn around and break some barrels instead of keep fighting the mob he was already fighting. Even so, I consider this a minor AI bug and if/when it's fixed, will not factor in at all or at least not much. And in raids where you have one boss to set him on, the dog is unlikely to break if you tell him to go attack specifically (one click).


In red doesn't stack.

Semi-perma-haste...sorta. It doesn't come with movement speed, and has to be individually cast on each person. Very mana intensive to keep that up on a party at all times.

Endless Fusillade is awesome, but I don't think it's something to really take an artificer for. Melee classes can deal out some great damage, and rangers can use Manyshot as many times as they want and for 20 seconds instead of 6.

I'm still waiting to see what rune arms can really do. I'd be trying out one myself on Lamannia, but the best luck I've had getting one was in Delera's. I'm very curious to see what a fully charged rune-arm with max enhancements, potency, and a crit can do.

Edit: The dog is nice, and certainly useful for soloing. But in groups and raids, it's more just going to be a bit of extra DPS, and might end up requiring too much babysitting. (Haven't been on a raid with one yet to say one way or the other.)

Haste movement speed buff is meaningless anyway. It's the attack speed that matters.

Endless Fusilade is more utility and longer than Manyshot. It gives 6 for 30, while Manyshot gives 20 for 120. Do the math. Endless gives you 4 extra seconds with higher damage (heavy repeater) and with additional Arty buff and rune arm damage added on to whatever effects the weapon itself already has. Depending o the combination, I'm pretty sure an Arty20 will out-DPS an AA20 with ranged damage now. I have not run the numbers since things are changing between builds, but it's going to be very close, possibly with the Artificer coming out on top, but definitely not being far behind unless there's a major change before it's finalized for live.

Rune arms are hard to test because there's so few of them right now and it's hard to run higher level content reliably on Lama. I'd like to see the ones from higher end content like Mindsunder tested, but I have a feeling their drop rates will be poor like most of the other good gear from those chests. Even so, it's basically a free shot of damage and not insignificant damage either. Tier 5 charges are looking pretty decent. Adding on elemental enhancements and Rune Arms enhancements will make them about as good as most SLAs currently in game judging by the numbers listed. That's on top of the buffs, repeater damage and dog damage though, so at that point it's basically icing on the cake of Artificer DPS.

As for the dogs, I'm not sure how they'll play out yet. Throw a good Docent on them and make a decent crafted weapon module and they could be a tank in some normal raids with the right pet enhancements and buffs on them. And they automatically come with a healer in the form of their master. And, once again, that's in addition to the other sources of DPS an Arty has going already. At level 10 My dog has 6/Adamantine, about 250 HP and no equipment. I barely had to heal him at all while leveling and he had no docent or weapon module for most of it. All I had to do was not take aggro from it and throw it a repair spell once in a while. Even on orange and red names. It might be different at end game, but I can see dogs with a DoD or Dragontouched Docent, +13 or above weapon module and the right enhancements being as good or better than some melees you could accept into a raid, and that's just the pet of an actual player.

I'm not saying DOOM!, but Arties are pretty powerful. Most classes have a nice bag of tricks to work with, but they seem to have a bag full of those bags. WF Artificer is going to be at least as good, if not better than a FvS for solo leveling. I haven't checked what the past life feat for Artificer will be, but if it's decent enough, I can see the TR lovers adding 3 runs of Artificer to their lists for every toon just because WHY NOT? It's not going to be hard to do and the variability of how you can play an artificer is seeming to leave no one out. I didn't even bother testing a melee Artificer or listing their advantages because why melee when you can range like that?

Aashrym
08-23-2011, 01:51 AM
Bard still get CC when it's relevant and have more skill options that are rarely relevant.

It's a lot easier to keep a group IC'd with a bard than it is to stop every once in a while to single target infuse everyone. Small distinctions but they exist.

Bards are due for some work but they still have a couple of positives.

Dark-Star
08-23-2011, 01:54 AM
I'm still waiting to see what rune arms can really do.

The better Rune Arms can crit for 450+ with just potency 6, x5 bolts. Base seems to be 80-170 or so (using one of the ML 19 Rune Arms).

This can be done at full charge roughly every five seconds. However, the targeting is god awful and takes a lot of getting used to. Without mouselook forget it. In addition, if a bolt hits anything, including a wall, it goes no further. So in constrained spaces, like any hallway, the Rune Arms lose a lot of their potency.

Aashrym
08-23-2011, 01:54 AM
Replies in red.

I would just scroll a lot of common spells. Capstone with haste scrolls, for example.

altrocks
08-23-2011, 02:04 AM
Replies in red.

I didn't notice a charge count on my artificer for Endless Fusilade. I will have to double check that. Would definitely change it's long-term usefulness, especially in boss fights.

As for haste clickies, they suffer from having a time limit and limited number of charges overall (same issue you listed for Endless Fusilade). Think of an Artificer in ToD throwing Haste armor enhancement one everyone before the final portal. No more swapping boots and throwing hastes on Sulu or on the tank while hoping another banishment isn't coming or that someone doesn't swap boots back on. It's going to be a very coveted buff straight through endgame. I haven't tested if it stacks with the Haste spell or not, but even if it doesn't it's still going to be very powerful.

As for the not stacking that everyone has pointed out, for some builds one may be better than another, especially at certain levels while coming up to cap. The point is that there's a variety of DPS boosts they can hand out individually to maximize every players DPS and they can stack a couple of them for different effects.

The dog thing, I think I covered in my previous post. They will end up being at least as useful as some random PUG fighter or pally, especially with a metalline of PG weapon module put in them and full DR, Threat Reduction and HP enhancements on them. If you put a decent Vertigo docent on them when they have maxed STR and maxed Trip ability, they might even make decent CC for a mob or two, though that remains to be seen.

I'm also interested to see what others consider powerful about the class, so please go ahead and list them for us. There seems to be no apparent end to the Artificer's ability to outdo every other class.

Caseas
08-23-2011, 02:36 AM
Why is the focus on damage?

Seriously now, people. Damage? Is that all that matters in this game? All this QQ over Weapon Damage?

Bards do many things an Artificer will never do, and at a much lower cost, and much quicker. Especially with Epic Elyd Edge. And yeah, I know it's an epic weapon used at level cap, but still, there are things a bard does that an artificer wont.

As previously stated, just because you, a single person, or even a small group of people, are infatuated with the Bard Class does NOT justify destroying another class from what it should be just because you may feel threatened.

DDO does not need to stagnate! Bring on the new classes, new races, new content, new items, etc.

DDO needs to flow, and regularly.

Just you wait, and you can quote me on this: The "QQ" from the whiners of the DDO's Forums will be 10 times what it is now when Druids get put on Lamannia.

Edit: The focus, from EVERYONE, should be about Teamwork and how well Bards and Artificers will work TOGETHER, not competing against each other.

Caseas
08-23-2011, 02:42 AM
I didn't notice a charge count on my artificer for Endless Fusilade. I will have to double check that. Would definitely change it's long-term usefulness, especially in boss fights.

As for haste clickies, they suffer from having a time limit and limited number of charges overall (same issue you listed for Endless Fusilade). Think of an Artificer in ToD throwing Haste armor enhancement one everyone before the final portal. No more swapping boots and throwing hastes on Sulu or on the tank while hoping another banishment isn't coming or that someone doesn't swap boots back on. It's going to be a very coveted buff straight through endgame. I haven't tested if it stacks with the Haste spell or not, but even if it doesn't it's still going to be very powerful.

As for the not stacking that everyone has pointed out, for some builds one may be better than another, especially at certain levels while coming up to cap. The point is that there's a variety of DPS boosts they can hand out individually to maximize every players DPS and they can stack a couple of them for different effects.

The dog thing, I think I covered in my previous post. They will end up being at least as useful as some random PUG fighter or pally, especially with a metalline of PG weapon module put in them and full DR, Threat Reduction and HP enhancements on them. If you put a decent Vertigo docent on them when they have maxed STR and maxed Trip ability, they might even make decent CC for a mob or two, though that remains to be seen.

I'm also interested to see what others consider powerful about the class, so please go ahead and list them for us. There seems to be no apparent end to the Artificer's ability to outdo every other class.

A pet with a max vertigo module and the associated enhancements does, truly, make a good CCer. A pets' stats can get pretty good :)

The armor enchantment haste effect is probably not going to work with boots of anchoring equipped. There isn't any artificer buff icons yet, but, I think it'll show up and apply the same way a Haste spell does. Also, haste spell and armor quickening do not stack.

Endless Fusilade gets 5 uses per rest.

ReaperAlexEU
08-23-2011, 03:29 AM
i get the feeling arties feel over powered partly due to the 1000% exp bonus and running the same old quests over level, and partly because you can get a self healing ranged based character early on (lvl1 for clankies and lvl3 for fleshies). thats a powerful combination and with the massive fire speed at low levels its really making things seem a lot easier than they are.

i'm also sceptical on their potential DPS, i have a lvl20 mechanic and while the INT damage bonus will be a lot lower than the arties its all trivial compared to that massive fist full of sneak attack dice, even then i wouldnt rate my mechanic against a focused DPSing melee. the buffs the arty can hand out are a nice boost, but in a raid the mechanic will be given the same buffs so its hardly extra DPS only the arty can have. the rune arm is nice but i dont think its going to catch up with the sneak attack damage. the only thing that will really put the arty ahead in terms of DPS is the new fort boosts the raid boss's are getting. and the pet, i dont think its going to out DPS even a poorly geared melee, it just attacks too slow and will need a mage casting mass repair spells if its going to stand a chance in a raid melee with the likes of harry.

no, i dont think the arty is going to make any class obsolete, it can do traps, but doesnt have evasion meaning it cant do those box's that are inside the trap. it has an odd selection of spells meaning it can't take on the job of a full spell slinger. it has nice buffs, but will need to lean heavily on scrolls and wont be able to use extend for some of the short ones like haste and rage. it adds some good DPS, but its hardly a raging barbarian or a TWF melee.

in short i think the arty will be like a bard, welcome in any group and only excluding other classes by its presence if the leader doesnt know what those other classes can bring. to exclude a rogue because you have an arty means you don't know that a good rogue can kill things. to exclude a bard because you have an arty means you dont know that a good bard can kill things. to have an arty, rogue and bard in the same party, especially a raid, will not be a one way ticket to a wipe.

no, i like how things are shaping up, we have another jack of all trades class and it seems to be very competent without being over the top. i think i'm going to enjoy fighting along side them on all of my characters.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 08:41 AM
Like I said to you before, +9 damage from a bard is better than deadly weapons for many weapon types.

Just because you like bards does not mean that one of the best abilities artificers get should be nerfed.

How would you like it if they added a class to the game which is better at the one thing your favorite class is best at? I mean come on now bards are not as good as artificer only thing bards have is mass cure moderate wounds and fascinate. I can heal a group adequately, but clerics and FVS are better at that and fascinate is limited.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 08:45 AM
Why is the focus on damage?

Seriously now, people. Damage? Is that all that matters in this game? All this QQ over Weapon Damage?

Bards do many things an Artificer will never do, and at a much lower cost, and much quicker. Especially with Epic Elyd Edge. And yeah, I know it's an epic weapon used at level cap, but still, there are things a bard does that an artificer wont.

As previously stated, just because you, a single person, or even a small group of people, are infatuated with the Bard Class does NOT justify destroying another class from what it should be just because you may feel threatened.

DDO does not need to stagnate! Bring on the new classes, new races, new content, new items, etc.

DDO needs to flow, and regularly.

Just you wait, and you can quote me on this: The "QQ" from the whiners of the DDO's Forums will be 10 times what it is now when Druids get put on Lamannia.



Hey I can not wait when they release Druids there are so many fun D&D Druid builds. It would be like a holiday. The Druid is its own animal which is great.

orakio
08-23-2011, 09:02 AM
How would you like it if they added a class to the game which is better at the one thing your favorite class is best at? I mean come on now bards are not as good as artificer only thing bards have is mass cure moderate wounds and fascinate. I can heal a group adequately, but clerics and FVS are better at that and fascinate is limited.

You are just looking at it the wrong way, the abilities of bard and artificer and not exclusive.... you can in fact have both functioning at the same time. There is a huge chunk of bard you overlook just looking at deadly weapons vs. IC, including bard +hit buff from IC (important for rogues and other 3/4 BAB classes or MAD classes), the large amount of cc the class brings and some of the really unique buffs. In addition you carry some of the best overall party spells in the game in haste/displacement/FoM/greater heroism. Sure a max level capstone arti can scroll cast it but until you hit 20 it isn't the same as having the spell itself and certainly costs more money.

Bard is just fine and will still stay that way after artificer is introduced on live.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 09:43 AM
You are just looking at it the wrong way, the abilities of bard and artificer and not exclusive.... you can in fact have both functioning at the same time. There is a huge chunk of bard you overlook just looking at deadly weapons vs. IC, including bard +hit buff from IC (important for rogues and other 3/4 BAB classes or MAD classes), the large amount of cc the class brings and some of the really unique buffs. In addition you carry some of the best overall party spells in the game in haste/displacement/FoM/greater heroism. Sure a max level capstone arti can scroll cast it but until you hit 20 it isn't the same as having the spell itself and certainly costs more money.

Bard is just fine and will still stay that way after artificer is introduced on live.

If you were a bard player like myself (buffing is paramount) would not the inclination be to true reincarnate your bards into artificers? This is not unlike the cleric/FVS situation where you see more and more FVS in game and less and less clerics at least for the folks that are not brand new to DDO.

Bard cc is horrible at the end game both in terms of effectivesness compared to mass hold and web for instance and because it does not work well with insta-killers and nukers like the game caters to now. Wizard and Sorcs have haste and displacement and gh not too mention there are clickies and scrolls available in game - heck an artificer can scroll 2 min haste and displacements I believe lol. FOMs can be cast by ranger, clerics, and FVS.

I am assuming here that you can not buy the following scrolls in scroll shops in game of course: positive energy infusion, thundering armor, radiant forcefield, and deadly weapons. No other class gets those spells, but if my bards could pick up stacks of those scrolls well everything I said goes out the window of course. There is also the dr breaking spells so obviously if a dr breaking spell adds more dps then deadly weapons an artificer will cast that instead of deadly weapons, but what have yeah.

Dark-Star
08-23-2011, 12:30 PM
How would you like it if they added a class to the game which is better at the one thing your favorite class is best at? I mean come on now bards are not as good as artificer only thing bards have is mass cure moderate wounds and fascinate. I can heal a group adequately, but clerics and FVS are better at that and fascinate is limited.

How would I feel? I'd welcome the chance to TR one of my characters into something new, fresh and fun. Artificer is not better than Bard, it's different.

Like people have said many times in this thread, Bard songs/buffs and Arti buffs stack... No reason not to take both on a quest or raid.

Here is what the bard can do better: Sing Inspire Heroism, add stacking +9 to damage and +8 to hit, add DC to all casters, Facinate, Inspire Competence, regen mana song, solo heal epics and raids, have better melee DPS.

Now there are also many things Artis can do that bards cannot, but the classes are far from mutually exclusive. If anything, rogues should be complaining.

Similar to the other thread you made, I'd recommend you spend some time playing and understanding the new class, its strengths and limitations, before you go crying nerf.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 12:57 PM
How would I feel? I'd welcome the chance to TR one of my characters into something new, fresh and fun. Artificer is not better than Bard, it's different.

Like people have said many times in this thread, Bard songs/buffs and Arti buffs stack... No reason not to take both on a quest or raid.

Here is what the bard can do better: Sing Inspire Heroism, add stacking +9 to damage and +8 to hit, add DC to all casters, Facinate, Inspire Competence, regen mana song, solo heal epics and raids, have better melee DPS.

Now there are also many things Artis can do that bards cannot, but the classes are far from mutually exclusive. If anything, rogues should be complaining.

Similar to the other thread you made, I'd recommend you spend some time playing and understanding the new class, its strengths and limitations, before you go crying nerf.

I am not suggesting that Turbine will listen. You saw all the folks that spoke out against the OP nature of Half-Orcs and Turbine still put the Half-Orcs in game as it was. What happened to Dwarves because of the Half-Orc well they died. For those of us that actually think Dwarves are neat well now we have to wait 1-2 years before they buff that race and in the meantime I get to run my substandard character for years before they decide to buff Dwarves.

Since the monk was released Turbine has put these more powerful versions of existing classes/races in the game without any care in the world to the older races/classes. Why can not Turbine just release a class/race that is not overpowered, but is just right? That is the real question. Monks were underpowered when they were released, but every class since...

These buffs are overpowered when coupled with everything else the artificer brings. You may just like to go willy nilly and make something new well I have 3 bards, fully geared with tons of game hours associated, which is a serious investment in that class. The second tr prestige enhancements for bards are mediocre, there is no ultra powerful DOT or offensive spell at all, and bard cc other then fascinate is horrible, and look there is a new buffer in town that is better.

If I were a better powergamer I would just be on the front end of whatever is OP in whatever coming update. I like playing different classes and feel that classes should be balanced with an opportunity for difference in the classes. I hate it when clerics are substandard or dwarfs, or bards and just get tired of it. I have benefitted in the past by Turbine's decisions, but jumping through hoops when I am not in the benefit gets tiring.

Aashrym
08-23-2011, 01:50 PM
How would I feel? I'd welcome the chance to TR one of my characters into something new, fresh and fun. Artificer is not better than Bard, it's different.

Like people have said many times in this thread, Bard songs/buffs and Arti buffs stack... No reason not to take both on a quest or raid.

Here is what the bard can do better: Sing Inspire Heroism, add stacking +9 to damage and +8 to hit, add DC to all casters, Facinate, Inspire Competence, regen mana song, solo heal epics and raids, have better melee DPS.

Now there are also many things Artis can do that bards cannot, but the classes are far from mutually exclusive. If anything, rogues should be complaining.

Similar to the other thread you made, I'd recommend you spend some time playing and understanding the new class, its strengths and limitations, before you go crying nerf.

Not all bards are 20th level war chanters and I could see an arti solo healing epics and raids (3 area heals instead of 2 and more base SP than bards). Arti DC's suck tho, and CC is very limited. The issue with CC is we still see immunities and restrictions, and that form of casting became more restricted in U9.

I would also bring up the fact that a single spell providing a roughly equivalent or better damage bonus is being compared to 18 AP in enhancements just for the IC enhancements, 2 tiers of PRE, and the burned feat make a war chanter in the first place, and giving up splashing for personal DPS.

The cost on that +9 damage IC comes out of the build options and is insanely higher than just casting a buff for some SP.

I would expect the build costs on bards for the damage to be worth more or the costs less. If we want to actually compare the damage I think the cost to get there is relevant. Bards can be pretty useful but they still have poor options facing bosses and they still cost a lot to get to the point players consider them semi-reasonable at healing or melee or CC; even then it comes with the hefty price tag on IC enhancements, the big ticket seller on the class.

I can see why there is a concern when it is so easy to simply cast a spell and get similar damage results (better based on the weapon). I'm not terribly concerned on it myself because there is still an SP cost and single target buffing is a pain. I would rather not add infusions to vendors tho because everyone would have those unique abilities who could UMD them and arti's would just save SP scrolling it too. I think we're better off restricting as is, but reserve the right to change my mind because it might be a boon for rogues.

Bards, on the other hand, still need more melee buffing spells, more songs, a revisit on the AP costs, and more offensive spells (sonic and illusions).

brinclhof
08-23-2011, 02:06 PM
I am not suggesting that Turbine will listen. You saw all the folks that spoke out against the OP nature of Half-Orcs and Turbine still put the Half-Orcs in game as it was. What happened to Dwarves because of the Half-Orc well they died. For those of us that actually think Dwarves are neat well now we have to wait 1-2 years before they buff that race and in the meantime I get to run my substandard character for years before they decide to buff Dwarves.




Is your Dwarf a good character. does it survive in quests, do you have fun playing it. Are your bards good builds, survive in quests, do you have fun playing them...

If so what is the big deal. The point of this game is to have fun. Bards are not going to be come obsolete when artificers come out. Artificers are not going to replace rogues, or casters, or bards. People enjoy playing these classes and play them well. So these classes will survive. Artificers are going to be a strong class...but like any class it is not the class so much as the player that makes it strong. Don't panic. Variety in parties will continue.

This game is supposed to be fun. Play it for fun. If you enjoy what you do continue to do it. Just because its not new doesn't make it obsolete.

altrocks
08-23-2011, 02:13 PM
I am not suggesting that Turbine will listen. You saw all the folks that spoke out against the OP nature of Half-Orcs and Turbine still put the Half-Orcs in game as it was. What happened to Dwarves because of the Half-Orc well they died. For those of us that actually think Dwarves are neat well now we have to wait 1-2 years before they buff that race and in the meantime I get to run my substandard character for years before they decide to buff Dwarves.

Since the monk was released Turbine has put these more powerful versions of existing classes/races in the game without any care in the world to the older races/classes. Why can not Turbine just release a class/race that is not overpowered, but is just right? That is the real question. Monks were underpowered when they were released, but every class since...

These buffs are overpowered when coupled with everything else the artificer brings. You may just like to go willy nilly and make something new well I have 3 bards, fully geared with tons of game hours associated, which is a serious investment in that class. The second tr prestige enhancements for bards are mediocre, there is no ultra powerful DOT or offensive spell at all, and bard cc other then fascinate is horrible, and look there is a new buffer in town that is better.

If I were a better powergamer I would just be on the front end of whatever is OP in whatever coming update. I like playing different classes and feel that classes should be balanced with an opportunity for difference in the classes. I hate it when clerics are substandard or dwarfs, or bards and just get tired of it. I have benefitted in the past by Turbine's decisions, but jumping through hoops when I am not in the benefit gets tiring.

I think you're looking at it in the wrong way. Artificer is mostly being tested by people who have been playing the game a very long time and may who have TRd so much that they can make the run to 20 in their sleep. These are advanced players that know exactly what feats are good and bad, which enhancements stack with others, that have tons of twink gear, even on Lamaland, and tons of plat to buy things with thanks to the dev events. They also all know the quests they're running, as I said, as well as the mechanics involved with pet AI from hireling experience.

A brand new player will not have as much of a fun experience paying Artificer, I think. Sure, they could make it work and have a decent time of it, but this is a more advanced class. A new player would be much better served by playing a rogue or wizard than jumping right into artificer.

And isn't that exactly what we've all been asking for? More advanced classes and options? More challenge and options in play style? Well, here it is. Those of us that are already godlike in the game will remain so, just with different skill sets and a different class icon. It's not going to be an easy class to play, but for those of us tired of the auto-attack and afk play style, it will offer a lot more to do. You have to keep track of SP and buffs, a Pet, a runearm, repeaters with ammo, tons of scrolls/wands to use UMD with, thieves' tools for traps and locks, elemental damages stacking from weapon effects, arty buffs, rune arm effects, etc. There's quite a bit to keep track of, even for vets to the game. I like it, personally. It offers a lot, but it takes work to truly take advantage of all it has to offer.

goblean
08-23-2011, 02:27 PM
Madd, your nerf everything threads are getting old. What got me playing my cleric again was Radiant Servant, and then someone was apparently not happy with my ability to have my extended pee pool out for everyone to play in and extend got nerfed off of it. Then to continue, because I was still having fun with the ability to do other things such as swing a weapon or cast a (non-heal) spell with just my aura up, they swapped burst and aura. That's when I stopped having fun dragging a cleric up to 12 just so I can have my aura back, minus extended.

I have a Warchanter, my songs hit everyone near me (minus you undead and occasional pets-bugged), it costs two songs for the basic buffs DR and courage. With the right gear those regen over time. Then toss in a full party rage, and a "real" Haste as opposed to single target no speed one. With Artificer every buff is single target and costs SP, no way am I going to buff everyone and their pet. That is the difference mass buffage vs single target, that is what makes bards the better buffer.

Havok.cry
08-23-2011, 02:36 PM
I'm sorry I can't hear your bardic music over the sound of my machinegun... i mean repeater.

Aashrym
08-23-2011, 02:37 PM
Madd, your nerf everything threads are getting old. What got me playing my cleric again was Radiant Servant, and then someone was apparently not happy with my ability to have my extended pee pool out for everyone to play in and extend got nerfed off of it. Then to continue, because I was still having fun with the ability to do other things such as swing a weapon or cast a (non-heal) spell with just my aura up, they swapped burst and aura. That's when I stopped having fun dragging a cleric up to 12 just so I can have my aura back, minus extended.

I have a Warchanter, my songs hit everyone near me (minus you undead and occasional pets-bugged), it costs two songs for the basic buffs DR and courage. With the right gear those regen over time. Then toss in a full party rage, and a "real" Haste as opposed to single target no speed one. With Artificer every buff is single target and costs SP, no way am I going to buff everyone and their pet. That is the difference mass buffage vs single target, that is what makes bards the better buffer.

Regard the RS aura, nerfs happen. They'll continue to happen, and not just because someone points out an issue but because an issue exists in the first place. That's a don't shoot the messenger response. In some cases nerfs actually should happen (not always but as a reasonable expectation) and it's not because someone mentioned it. ;)

Don't get too carried away on mass vs single-target. Arti capstone covers scroll buffing from other class spell lists well and low level buffing scrolls are cheap. ;)

My response to anyone who complains about nerf posts or threads is to debate the issue. Leave personal attacks and complaints that someone has a concern out of it because that doesn't contribute to the discussion.

maddmatt70
08-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Madd, your nerf everything threads are getting old. What got me playing my cleric again was Radiant Servant, and then someone was apparently not happy with my ability to have my extended pee pool out for everyone to play in and extend got nerfed off of it. Then to continue, because I was still having fun with the ability to do other things such as swing a weapon or cast a (non-heal) spell with just my aura up, they swapped burst and aura. That's when I stopped having fun dragging a cleric up to 12 just so I can have my aura back, minus extended.

I have a Warchanter, my songs hit everyone near me (minus you undead and occasional pets-bugged), it costs two songs for the basic buffs DR and courage. With the right gear those regen over time. Then toss in a full party rage, and a "real" Haste as opposed to single target no speed one. With Artificer every buff is single target and costs SP, no way am I going to buff everyone and their pet. That is the difference mass buffage vs single target, that is what makes bards the better buffer.

I have asked for far more buffs then nerfs over the years.

Can anyone really disagree on what Half-Orcs have done to the dwarf population? It is obvious to everyone. Is it not necessarily because someone wants to play a Half-Orc more then dwarf per se anymore, but rather because Dwarves are a weaker race. Who wants to play a weaker race when one is clearly better?

The problem I have encountered in DDO is when the devs put out something overpowered it takes the devs literally years to fix it. Wounding and puncturing was one of the most obvious examples where it took the devs 3 years or so to change the weapon effect. The same can be said for buffing a class/race. The monk class when it was released was underpowered and it took the devs 6 months to begin to address those issues and another 6 months until the buffing of monks was about done.

It is a far better policy to fix something before it goes live in my opinion. That way there is alot less pain when it finally gets changed not to mention the other class/race has to wait until the fix. This wings nerf for FVS is a real bad one. It will infuriate the players, but if the devs would have done that in the first two months FVS came out it would not be so bad and players would not be as upset as they will be now.

I actually applaud the radiant servant nerf. That was one of the few times in game when the devs responded quickly to something that was overpowered (within a month). I remember running my cleric in epic quests and not having to do any actions to keep the party up. I literally could be semi-afk and not have any trouble keeping a group up because that aura was so OP before the change.

The other poster that made the comment about new players having trouble with the artificer due to its complexity has a point, but think of it this way. If an artifcer just concentrates on casting buffs on the party, has maxed blade barriors via enhancements, and puts just a little bit into dog, xbow, and rune arm which is better bards or artifcers? I would argue the artificer will be. The key like for the bard is buffing. Good artificers will buff of course really its a buffing class.

TreknaQudane
08-23-2011, 02:51 PM
I have asked for far more buffs then nerfs over the years.

Can anyone really disagree on what Half-Orcs have done to the dwarf population? It is obvious to everyone. Is it not necessarily because someone wants to play a Half-Orc more then dwarf per se anymore, but rather because Dwarves are a weaker race. Who wants to play a weaker race when one is clearly better?

I'd not honestly say that Dwarves are weaker. They suffer from the fact most of their bonuses are defensive and as of now in DDO, that's not of use.

hit_fido
08-23-2011, 05:00 PM
Can anyone really disagree on what Half-Orcs have done to the dwarf population? It is obvious to everyone. Is it not necessarily because someone wants to play a Half-Orc more then dwarf per se anymore, but rather because Dwarves are a weaker race. Who wants to play a weaker race when one is clearly better?

Empathy with the dwarf love. Not only us but a lot of other players will be psychologically tied to the race of character they liked playing the most, halfling seem to be another with loyal following but any (free to play) race is a candidate. For those Turbine could just rake it in if they'd make buffed up pay to play equivalents. Call it a "paragon dwarf" or something, make it simple and use the same textures, just revamp and improve enhancements and such to be on par with any pay to play race. We win: no hard to swallow pill of being less optimal due to fantasy preferences; Turbine wins: more revenue.

Dark-Star
08-23-2011, 08:54 PM
Good artificers will buff of course really its a buffing class.


Again, with all due respect, try actually playing the class before you put it erroneously into a box.

Aashrym
08-23-2011, 09:50 PM
Again, with all due respect, try actually playing the class before you put it erroneously into a box.

What else are they going to do with the buffs on their list? Buff themselves and ignore the rest of the team?

If they can increase party damage simultaneously to their own by buffing they should absolutely do so. That's just applying one of the class strengths. It might not be the whole entirety of the class but they definitely buff.

maddmatt70
08-24-2011, 12:22 AM
Again, with all due respect, try actually playing the class before you put it erroneously into a box.

With all due respects Dark-Star are you not going to cast deadly weapons on all the melee in a raid.. That is a huge buff. How about the 25% non damage spell and the healing amp infusion, the sonic armor, etc. on the main tank?

Caseas
08-24-2011, 12:36 AM
With all due respects Dark-Star are you not going to cast deadly weapons on all the melee in a raid.. That is a huge buff. How about the 25% non damage spell and the healing amp infusion, the sonic armor, etc. on the main tank?

I'm going to buff everyone, every time, with everything I got, because I like to do it.

Dark-Star
08-24-2011, 02:05 AM
They have a few buffs, and some are worth casting on others for sure, but it is FAR more than a buff class. There many things that they can do both offensively and defensively that most people haven't caught onto yet.

NaturalHazard
08-24-2011, 02:53 AM
In red doesn't stack.

. , and rangers can use Manyshot as many times as they want and for 20 seconds instead of 6.

.)


Um really? so the 2 minute timer doesnt mean anything? Is the manyshot bug back?

patang01
08-24-2011, 05:25 AM
The capstones allows the artificiers to throw wands and scrolls spells at level 20. Like nightshields for 20 minutes, blur for 20 minutes and stoneskin scrolls for 20 minutes 200 in dam.

I tried several of them and some seems broken like the pray scroll and recitation while the bless scroll lasted me 20 minutes.

All and all very good 'support' features, some okay offensive spells, given a good repeater some nice repeater stuff.

Also, the adchemical spells where you need the potion and then can make it a AOE grenade that heals, remove posion, curses etc is nifty in some raids.

karl_k0ch
08-24-2011, 05:55 AM
Um really? so the 2 minute timer doesnt mean anything? Is the manyshot bug back?

No, I think he wanted to imply that the number of uses of Manyshot is not limited. So it's a different mechanic. Fusiliade benefits from getting rest shrines often, whereas Manyshot is independant of this. Depending on the quest and progression speed, one or the other is superior.

budalic
08-24-2011, 06:27 AM
Artificer looks great on paper, but I don't really know, it seems to me that Spellsinger bard can match artificer buffwise (and probably DPS wise... )

Bard:
IC: +7 attack (huge if anybody in party has to hit issues); +7 damage - will make melee happy; also AoE
Spellsong trance: 10% morale discount and +1 to DC - will make divine casters very happy. WF caster happy also.
Spellsong vigor: Single target... meh overall, but will save some sp.
Song of arcane might: nice bonus for casters.

Gameplay: Modern spellsingers are probably melee builds. Also can probably solo heal when played by very good player. Can self-heal, has fascinate CC, can dance.

Artificer:
Deadly weapons: Variable bonus to damage. Can get really high on some weapons. Alternatively, can get DR breaking abilities for weapons.
Sonic armor thingie: so-so... fun but probably hard to quantify
Bunch of tank buffs: makes tanks happy.

Gameplay: Int-artificer plays very strange - in some cases, it will probably be dramatically better than THF or TWF melee SS bard. On the other hand, it will be occasionally very weak. Str-artificer will probably match bard DPS. Both builds will probably have to-hit issues without bards around (and occasionaly with them around too). Has pet to help with damage. Can self-repair.

Artificer has more options, sure, but it seems to me that it might be somewhere between bards and casters in general power level; with buffs that are about at same level.

maddmatt70
08-24-2011, 10:02 AM
They have a few buffs, and some are worth casting on others for sure, but it is FAR more than a buff class. There many things that they can do both offensively and defensively that most people haven't caught onto yet.

Yes they are far better offensively then bards and yet are even better then bards from a buffing standpoint. They also have some great defensive abilities I would imagine with the pet, etc. That is the problem clean why are they so good at buffing and yet have all these other great abilities. Why can not the devs reduce their buffing capabilities? I mean they get buff spells that my bards and no other class gets that are great. I am going to have to literally buy radiant forcefield scrolls of off the auction house for my bards. I think Bards are this years dwarves.

budalic
08-24-2011, 10:33 AM
Yes they are far better offensively then bards and yet are even better then bards from a buffing standpoint. They also have some great defensive abilities I would imagine with the pet, etc. That is the problem clean why are they so good at buffing and yet have all these other great abilities. Why can not the devs reduce their buffing capabilities? I mean they get buff spells that my bards and no other class gets that are great. I am going to have to literally buy radiant forcefield scrolls of off the auction house for my bards. I think Bards are this years dwarves.

Empashis mine. Aside from BB, Artificers aren't really better offensively than bard which casts (ie. no madstone).

At any rate, Artificers aren't gonna replace bards. Bard will still have awesome damage buff and best to-hit buff in game, whith come aditional nifty PRE songs and fascinate.

Beldain
08-24-2011, 12:56 PM
Bard cc is horrible at the end game both in terms of effectivesness compared to mass hold and web for instance and because it does not work well with insta-killers and nukers like the game caters to now. Wizard and Sorcs have haste and displacement and gh not too mention there are clickies and scrolls available in game - heck an artificer can scroll 2 min haste and displacements I believe lol. FOMs can be cast by ranger, clerics, and FVS.



You obviously haven't run with a properly geared/specced Virtuoso.. did a bunch of epic quests with one the other week with the bard as the only CC, no wiz/sorc in group... and was amazed as she'd call on us to come on in to a room full of CC'd mobs, after we got the clue to stay the f back and let her work... =) Far more effective and efficient than my CC spec AM toon was...

Aashrym
08-24-2011, 03:31 PM
You obviously haven't run with a properly geared/specced Virtuoso.. did a bunch of epic quests with one the other week with the bard as the only CC, no wiz/sorc in group... and was amazed as she'd call on us to come on in to a room full of CC'd mobs, after we got the clue to stay the f back and let her work... =) Far more effective and efficient than my CC spec AM toon was...

Mass hold and web are still better, although I do like a nice disco ball. Wizards have more CC options out side of enchantments. Relying on fascinate and related enhancements works but that comes with lower damage from lack of helpless and even using enthrall mobs to break and can fight back on hit.

I also consider bards good CC but immunities can be a problem and it's still a break on hit for fascinates. Wizzies with higher spell DC's and more options for the best CC plus other offensive options.

That's why we need more spells. Bards should be able to cast shadow magic webs (among other things) but we have only 1 shadow spell in the game so far. Bards are no where near what they could be if we added more bard spells. I want my AoE sonic bard only dot that forces a save or be stunned with every tic of damage. ;)

Dexxaan
08-24-2011, 03:58 PM
Its bad when artificers add so much more damage then a bard. I do not understand this who would want a bard over an artificer in a party. What is Turbine thinking?

Following that logic -after the introduction of the single most OP Epic Weapon (Elyd Edge) why would you bring a pure Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian to a group??

All you need is to MyDDO the Bard and make sure they have decent HP´s and an insane CHA. (....and that they actually have the EEE)


As of now - I see the Bard in a peculiar predicament: (and yes I agree with you)

* If there´s an Artificer already in the Party then a non EEE Bard is doomed.


Such are the telltale signs of a Nerf in the making. :D

.
.

Aashrym
08-24-2011, 04:06 PM
Empashis mine. Aside from BB, Artificers aren't really better offensively than bard which casts (ie. no madstone).

At any rate, Artificers aren't gonna replace bards. Bard will still have awesome damage buff and best to-hit buff in game, whith come aditional nifty PRE songs and fascinate.

Tactical detonation vs greater shout? ;)

Fascinate and hit bonus needs are just too situational to be relying on them to be added to groups. Most bards will be playing their bards because they enjoy the playstyle more than the class is actually needed in a group if an arti is available as well. I suspect the real draw to adding and arti to the group is for the buffs; otherwise we're back into a multi-purpose could be filled with another slot that we already have with bards.

Single target infusions really are annoying to apply to groups when we can just get a bard to IC tho.

Aashrym
08-24-2011, 04:08 PM
Following that logic -after the introduction of the single most OP Epic Weapon (Elyd Edge) why would you bring a pure Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian to a group??

All you need is to MyDDO the Bard and make sure they have decent HP´s and an insane CHA. (....and that they actually have the EEE)

Because and arti can apply his casting stat to any weapon for damage or hit, not just an epic weapon? Just sayin' ;)

budalic
08-24-2011, 04:46 PM
Tactical detonation vs greater shout? ;)

Fascinate and hit bonus needs are just too situational to be relying on them to be added to groups. Most bards will be playing their bards because they enjoy the playstyle more than the class is actually needed in a group if an arti is available as well. I suspect the real draw to adding and arti to the group is for the buffs; otherwise we're back into a multi-purpose could be filled with another slot that we already have with bards.

Single target infusions really are annoying to apply to groups when we can just get a bard to IC tho.

Just in case some people misunderstood me, I meant to say that offensively Artificer isn't better than melee bard who occasionally casts heals/buffs/whatever, ... and not the Madstone Bard variant, which is usually deeply splashed melee character with some buffs. Self-healing is built into arties, and they should be compared to self-healing bards.

At any rate, on the flip side of the coin, Artificer has absolutely no buffs designed with casters in mind. SS Bard has quite a lot of buffs for most casters, all of which work on fleshie casters (probably divine); with some bugs with WF and undead types out there. I'd say that that would make them more desirable in typical parties I play with (which are usually mix of casters and melee).

mournbladereigns
08-24-2011, 06:30 PM
Tactical detonation vs greater shout? ;)

Fascinate and hit bonus needs are just too situational to be relying on them to be added to groups. Most bards will be playing their bards because they enjoy the playstyle more than the class is actually needed in a group if an arti is available as well. I suspect the real draw to adding and arti to the group is for the buffs; otherwise we're back into a multi-purpose could be filled with another slot that we already have with bards.

Single target infusions really are annoying to apply to groups when we can just get a bard to IC tho.

I'm gonna give the nod to bards, just cause of the zerg mentality. They're buffs are fast to cast, and don't require much inpurt. An arty in a pug would have to poll players, pass out weapon buffs, swap around some scrolls and all that. People are too impatient for more than a major weap buff or two.

I see Artificers taking more of melee-caster role in the short term. He brings self-healing/self-buff DPS, and can throw some buffs and healing. Over time Arties and bards will be in stiffer competition for a slot, in raids.

That said, Bards need more love. SOnic DotS! TierIII pres, (and no, an epic bone isn't enough. one epic item does not buff a class, it buffs people who run epics to death.)

Aashrym
08-24-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm gonna give the nod to bards, just cause of the zerg mentality. They're buffs are fast to cast, and don't require much inpurt. An arty in a pug would have to poll players, pass out weapon buffs, swap around some scrolls and all that. People are too impatient for more than a major weap buff or two.

I see Artificers taking more of melee-caster role in the short term. He brings self-healing/self-buff DPS, and can throw some buffs and healing. Over time Arties and bards will be in stiffer competition for a slot, in raids.

That said, Bards need more love. SOnic DotS! TierIII pres, (and no, an epic bone isn't enough. one epic item does not buff a class, it buffs people who run epics to death.)

I can just imagine some of the xp/min runners trying to deal with an arti and infusions. I cannot see a lot of patience for the time spent buffing and when arti's come out we'll see the threads popping up about waiting for buffs.

altrocks
08-25-2011, 12:17 AM
I can just imagine some of the xp/min runners trying to deal with an arti and infusions. I cannot see a lot of patience for the time spent buffing and when arti's come out we'll see the threads popping up about waiting for buffs.

1) Arties buff themselves.
2) /p Anyone want a specific buff, let me know.
3) Run quest.

No need to stand around for 10 minutes buffing in most quests anyway. For harder raids, I can see people taking their time to buff everyone, but that happens anyway with GH, FoM, Resists, etc. Artie can pass out buffs at the shrine while all of those are being passed out as well in those types of situations. And if people REALLY absolutely need a certain Arty buff, then they'll ask for it. No one is shy about asking for any buffs as it is, so I don't see it becoming an issue.

maddmatt70
08-25-2011, 12:26 AM
1) Arties buff themselves.
2) /p Anyone want a specific buff, let me know.
3) Run quest.

No need to stand around for 10 minutes buffing in most quests anyway. For harder raids, I can see people taking their time to buff everyone, but that happens anyway with GH, FoM, Resists, etc. Artie can pass out buffs at the shrine while all of those are being passed out as well in those types of situations. And if people REALLY absolutely need a certain Arty buff, then they'll ask for it. No one is shy about asking for any buffs as it is, so I don't see it becoming an issue.

Yes and no. Deadly weapons should be cast on the melee/ranged party members without being asked it just is that good. The worst bards do not play inspire courage and do not cast haste and believe me they are out there. Arties have the same responsibility with deadly weapons. If you can not cast a buff that good on others then you have no business playing the class.

Aashrym
08-25-2011, 12:31 AM
1) Arties buff themselves.
2) /p Anyone want a specific buff, let me know.
3) Run quest.

No need to stand around for 10 minutes buffing in most quests anyway. For harder raids, I can see people taking their time to buff everyone, but that happens anyway with GH, FoM, Resists, etc. Artie can pass out buffs at the shrine while all of those are being passed out as well in those types of situations. And if people REALLY absolutely need a certain Arty buff, then they'll ask for it. No one is shy about asking for any buffs as it is, so I don't see it becoming an issue.

I would hope so, but I could see annoyance if the buffs are needed and zergers need to wait. ;)

EDIT: Following what Matt said, buffers should still hit what they can for damage boosts. I'll likely just pick by class icon on the run or when catching up to the melee if needed for zergers. If I'm on a bard now I tend to rage, haste, and sing on the run because singing doesn't impede movement.

altrocks
08-25-2011, 12:39 AM
I would hope so, but I could see annoyance if the buffs are needed and zergers need to wait. ;)

EDIT: Following what Matt said, buffers should still hit what they can for damage boosts. I'll likely just pick by class icon on the run or when catching up to the melee if needed for zergers. If I'm on a bard now I tend to rage, haste, and sing on the run because singing doesn't impede movement.


Yes and no. Deadly weapons should be cast on the melee/ranged party members without being asked it just is that good. The worst bards do not play inspire courage and do not cast haste and believe me they are out there. Arties have the same responsibility with deadly weapons. If you can not cast a buff that good on others then you have no business playing the class.

Again, for both of you, I'm only seeing this happening in raids or really tough quests. If it's a zerg run, usually the people don't even wait for mass buffs. If anything they'll say something like "DW, haste and go!" Or they'll just carry pots/clickies for whatever they need. I don't see anyone expecting deadly weapons to be cast on them in ANY zerg run anymore than they would expect an automatic GH, FoM, resist, etc. At least on Khyber that's how it is currently. If people do stick around or ask for buffs, it usually means they're going to have to catch up to the rest. Some do that now, but they're usually dropped from group pretty quickly is most zerg runs. Bards DO have the advantage of being able to sing on the run, which is weird cause I would think playing a musical instrument while singing and running would be quite difficult. At least as tough as casting and running. Still, I tend to jump-cast my buffs as I run in zerg situations. Best we can do as casters.

Aashrym
08-25-2011, 12:42 AM
Again, for both of you, I'm only seeing this happening in raids or really tough quests. If it's a zerg run, usually the people don't even wait for mass buffs. If anything they'll say something like "DW, haste and go!" Or they'll just carry pots/clickies for whatever they need. I don't see anyone expecting deadly weapons to be cast on them in ANY zerg run anymore than they would expect an automatic GH, FoM, resist, etc. At least on Khyber that's how it is currently. If people do stick around or ask for buffs, it usually means they're going to have to catch up to the rest. Some do that now, but they're usually dropped from group pretty quickly is most zerg runs. Bards DO have the advantage of being able to sing on the run, which is weird cause I would think playing a musical instrument while singing and running would be quite difficult. At least as tough as casting and running. Still, I tend to jump-cast my buffs as I run in zerg situations. Best we can do as casters.

They don't need to wait if you do it on the move or when they stop to engage in combat. I would priortize the targets as best I could and hit them when I can. No one will complain about more damage and it certainly can't do anything but help. It might be an annoyance for the arti trying to hit them all but I would certainly try.

wax_on_wax_off
08-25-2011, 01:18 AM
Yes and no. Deadly weapons should be cast on the melee/ranged party members without being asked it just is that good. The worst bards do not play inspire courage and do not cast haste and believe me they are out there. Arties have the same responsibility with deadly weapons. If you can not cast a buff that good on others then you have no business playing the class.

Yeah, I highly doubt that an Artificer would be kept in a group if he didn't cast Deadly Weapons automatically.

TreknaQudane
08-25-2011, 01:28 AM
Yeah, I highly doubt that an Artificer would be kept in a group if he didn't cast Deadly Weapons automatically.

Depends on the weapon... making something a DR Breaker could be of greater utility

Aashrym
08-25-2011, 01:29 AM
Depends on the weapon... making something a DR Breaker could be of greater utility

That would require knowledge of the need. No request, not automatic.

wax_on_wax_off
08-25-2011, 01:47 AM
That would require knowledge of the need. No request, not automatic.

Exactly. The assumption is that you start casting Deadly Weapons on everyone and assume that if someone wants something else instead that they will tell you (and hopefully before you waste SP).

I mean, perhaps they'd prefer elemental weapons as their shuriken will get more damage from it?

It's irrelevant. Deadly Weapons is automatic and shouldn't need to be asked for. If you can't manage this 1 single buff then pick a different class.

budalic
08-25-2011, 02:39 AM
Exactly. The assumption is that you start casting Deadly Weapons on everyone and assume that if someone wants something else instead that they will tell you (and hopefully before you waste SP).

I mean, perhaps they'd prefer elemental weapons as their shuriken will get more damage from it?

It's irrelevant. Deadly Weapons is automatic and shouldn't need to be asked for. If you can't manage this 1 single buff then pick a different class.

Well, you obviously won't cast Deadly Weapons on casters :) ... I guess you should really check if divines are more melee-type or caster-type.

As for something else... lot of weapons would gain more from DR breaking than from deadly weapons. (actually, I believe it's all non-damage-breakers except eSoS; at least at DR 15).

Also, I must say I'm rather dissapointed for the lack of caster-buffs on artificers.

Caseas
08-25-2011, 03:09 AM
Yes and no. Deadly weapons should be cast on the melee/ranged party members without being asked it just is that good. The worst bards do not play inspire courage and do not cast haste and believe me they are out there. Arties have the same responsibility with deadly weapons. If you can not cast a buff that good on others then you have no business playing the class.

I actually agree with Matt for once; give your party members the buffs, they'll have more fun :D

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 03:29 AM
I can't wait to see Shrouds with 6 artificers firing off Repeaters with endless fusilade from range while throwing mass repairs as their dogs tear up harry while firing their rune arms as they charge up. You think DoTs were bad from sorcs? Just wait.

Six? You really think it would take that many? You have to much confidence in Harry.

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 03:59 AM
What else are they going to do with the buffs on their list? Buff themselves and ignore the rest of the team?


Uh yeah, I have a 20 bard and after playing arty extensively I'm not worried one bit, in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff just one person a bard can buff the whole party and in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff the whole group a bard group will be done with the raid. I just don't see people being willing to wait that long for buff that they know they can survive with out (cause they have till now). The arty buffs make things easyer but I just don't see an arty replacing a bard, wont happen, now rogues on the other hand...



If they can increase party damage simultaneously to their own by buffing they should absolutely do so. That's just applying one of the class strengths. It might not be the whole entirety of the class but they definitely buff.

Having an arty I can say that it wouldn't be worth my time; Case in point, if I had a nickle for every time I herd a ranger say, "I'm not gonna barkskin the whole group!" I'd be a rich man and that's just one buff as opose to the arty's dozen or so. The words 'single target' are all the nerf these type of spells need.

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 04:19 AM
Yes and no. Deadly weapons should be cast on the melee/ranged party members without being asked it just is that good. The worst bards do not play inspire courage and do not cast haste and believe me they are out there. Arties have the same responsibility with deadly weapons. If you can not cast a buff that good on others then you have no business playing the class.

Not the same, you talking about 2 mouse clicks for a bard, a class by the way which pretty much serves no purpose late game besides bard songs and haste/rage buckets, versus 5+ minutes of buffing for an arty who has so much more to offer a party. Artificer is not a buff class so expecting them to buff when there is a very real possibility that they wont even have that spell on there list is selfish.

It's the same reason no one can ever play a melee DPS WF fav soul with out annoying the whole raid group. Every one thinks that Favs are 'just healers' and nothing else, but those of us that have actually played them know that while yes they may not match a Barb or Kensi Fighter the can certainly come close at a decided cost to healing capacity of course. so when a lord of blades fav joins a group busts out a G sword and jumps in to the fight instead of healing every one yells at him.

Yes, Artys can buff, but it's only one tiny facet of a very complex class. If they have a focused caster build they do great as a DPS caster, they can kite with the best of em and are on par with rogues for traping. Not all artys will have all the cool DPS buffs your hoping for especially if they ever release a lightening caster focused PrE (fingers crossed). So do not assume that because an arty is in your group your gonna get a buff-fest and aside from that I guarantee that some artys will get tired of people asking for said buffs and just lie and say they don't have it.

Dendrix
08-25-2011, 04:56 AM
Does Deadly Weapon affect all the weapons a person carries, or just the ones in hand when you cast it on them?
Are there any quests where you might need to use two different types of weapons?

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 05:36 AM
Does Deadly Weapon affect all the weapons a person carries, or just the ones in hand when you cast it on them?
Are there any quests where you might need to use two different types of weapons?

Just the weapon in hand at time of casting is effected, and if you have a min II greensteel... anything, no, you only needone weapon. I say this because a Min II can get through just about any DR in the game and in the rare event that you get lawful or chaotic DR, the spell aligned weapon gives you what you need. You may want other weapons for convenience sake but you only need one.

Aashrym
08-25-2011, 10:06 AM
Uh yeah, I have a 20 bard and after playing arty extensively I'm not worried one bit, in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff just one person a bard can buff the whole party and in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff the whole group a bard group will be done with the raid. I just don't see people being willing to wait that long for buff that they know they can survive with out (cause they have till now). The arty buffs make things easyer but I just don't see an arty replacing a bard, wont happen, now rogues on the other hand...



Having an arty I can say that it wouldn't be worth my time; Case in point, if I had a nickle for every time I herd a ranger say, "I'm not gonna barkskin the whole group!" I'd be a rich man and that's just one buff as opose to the arty's dozen or so. The words 'single target' are all the nerf these type of spells need.

There is a world of difference between buffing AC and damage in the current game. ;)

Aashrym
08-25-2011, 10:07 AM
Not the same, you talking about 2 mouse clicks for a bard, a class by the way which pretty much serves no purpose late game besides bard songs and haste/rage buckets, versus 5+ minutes of buffing for an arty who has so much more to offer a party. Artificer is not a buff class so expecting them to buff when there is a very real possibility that they wont even have that spell on there list is selfish.

It's the same reason no one can ever play a melee DPS WF fav soul with out annoying the whole raid group. Every one thinks that Favs are 'just healers' and nothing else, but those of us that have actually played them know that while yes they may not match a Barb or Kensi Fighter the can certainly come close at a decided cost to healing capacity of course. so when a lord of blades fav joins a group busts out a G sword and jumps in to the fight instead of healing every one yells at him.

Yes, Artys can buff, but it's only one tiny facet of a very complex class. If they have a focused caster build they do great as a DPS caster, they can kite with the best of em and are on par with rogues for traping. Not all artys will have all the cool DPS buffs your hoping for especially if they ever release a lightening caster focused PrE (fingers crossed). So do not assume that because an arty is in your group your gonna get a buff-fest and aside from that I guarantee that some artys will get tired of people asking for said buffs and just lie and say they don't have it.

No one said just buff. That would have been more like saying just because a fvs or cleric can do more they should not be expected to also heal. ;)

maddmatt70
08-25-2011, 10:15 AM
Uh yeah, I have a 20 bard and after playing arty extensively I'm not worried one bit, in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff just one person a bard can buff the whole party and in the amount of time it takes an arty to buff the whole group a bard group will be done with the raid. I just don't see people being willing to wait that long for buff that they know they can survive with out (cause they have till now). The arty buffs make things easyer but I just don't see an arty replacing a bard, wont happen, now rogues on the other hand...



Having an arty I can say that it wouldn't be worth my time; Case in point, if I had a nickle for every time I herd a ranger say, "I'm not gonna barkskin the whole group!" I'd be a rich man and that's just one buff as opose to the arty's dozen or so. The words 'single target' are all the nerf these type of spells need.

This is a funny discussion, but quite frankly buffing is a skill. Many of the good bards buff the zergers while they zerge and the same will be true of the good artis. If you can not do the buffs then this is not the class for you or just use it as a soloing class. People who do not like to do some buffs will not be good at the class and will eventually stop playing this class because it sucks trying to play something you are not good at or do not enjoy.

grodon9999
08-25-2011, 10:25 AM
So how does this work exactly? it gets cast on a guy with Khopeshes and his base damage goes up to 2d8 (2d10 if GS).

Dark-Star
08-25-2011, 11:29 AM
No.

It increases the die step by one.

So if a Khopesh like the Epic Chaos Blade has a base damage die of 2d8, Deadly Weapons would make it 4d8. Thornlord, for example, would go from 2d8+4 to 4d8+8, then if using Point Blank Shot, would further increase one die step to 6d8+12 (not double from the original die step, if that makes sense).

Deadly Weapons is not currently working on Lama, and I believe they are still modifying it some.

So, as we can see it's a pretty powerful buff if implemented this way.

As for Arti buffing? It will be a nightmare.

Let's say you have nine melee in your raid, and they are two weapon fighters (some may be two handed fighters, but others will want their ranged weapons buffed as well), the Arti will be casting DW 18 times, and people have to let him know when they have swapped their off hand weapon to the primary slot so it can receive the buff. If someone has a bow? Add another cast. Trash beaters and DR breakers? Keep casting.

Why not some long duration haste on your armor? That's pretty powerful as well, right? Keep casting another nine times.

Oh wait, someone wanted Silver instead on a weapon? Cool here you go. And the tank wanted Thunder Armor? Alright sure here you are.

How about an Ablative Armor on a few of the melee? Here you go no problem.

Oh, and the tank needs that Radiant Forcefield thing you do to mitigate the damage. Right! I'm on it.

Hey Arti, get to debuffing that boss will ya? Every 15 seconds? Ok will do.

Btw, you can keep the WF tank up right? And can you do that AoE curse pot thing? Oh keep the group topped off with the Curative Admixture if you would.

Buffing the raid alone just once on each weapon costs 630 mana with no metas on. Armor of Speed another 270. Silver Weapon up to another 630 mana. Those three buffs alone are in excess of 1,500 mana, more than most Arti's entire mana pool. This doesn't even take into consideration the time it takes to buff, and the buffing needs to be done with comminucation as people are swapping weapons, making it more dificult to buff on the run zerg style like some of us are used to.

So will people be buffing the raid on their Artis? You tell me.

maddmatt70
08-25-2011, 12:12 PM
No.

It increases the die step by one.

So if a Khopesh like the Epic Chaos Blade has a base damage die of 2d8, Deadly Weapons would make it 4d8. Thornlord, for example, would go from 2d8+4 to 4d8+8, then if using Point Blank Shot, would further increase one die step to 6d8+12 (not double from the original die step, if that makes sense).

Deadly Weapons is not currently working on Lama, and I believe they are still modifying it some.

So, as we can see it's a pretty powerful buff if implemented this way.

As for Arti buffing? It will be a nightmare.

Let's say you have nine melee in your raid, and they are two weapon fighters (some may be two handed fighters, but others will want their ranged weapons buffed as well), the Arti will be casting DW 18 times, and people have to let him know when they have swapped their off hand weapon to the primary slot so it can receive the buff. If someone has a bow? Add another cast. Trash beaters and DR breakers? Keep casting.

Why not some long duration haste on your armor? That's pretty powerful as well, right? Keep casting another nine times.

Oh wait, someone wanted Silver instead on a weapon? Cool here you go. And the tank wanted Thunder Armor? Alright sure here you are.

How about an Ablative Armor on a few of the melee? Here you go no problem.

Oh, and the tank needs that Radiant Forcefield thing you do to mitigate the damage. Right! I'm on it.

Hey Arti, get to debuffing that boss will ya? Every 15 seconds? Ok will do.

Btw, you can keep the WF tank up right? And can you do that AoE curse pot thing? Oh keep the group topped off with the Curative Admixture if you would.

Buffing the raid alone just once on each weapon costs 630 mana with no metas on. Armor of Speed another 270. Silver Weapon up to another 630 mana. Those three buffs alone are in excess of 1,500 mana, more than most Arti's entire mana pool. This doesn't even take into consideration the time it takes to buff, and the buffing needs to be done with comminucation as people are swapping weapons, making it more dificult to buff on the run zerg style like some of us are used to.

So will people be buffing the raid on their Artis? You tell me.

I was not aware that you had to buff each weapon for twf that is equipped. The impression I get by reading the description is if you have two weapons equipped and you get hit by a deadly weapons spell they get both cast upon it. As stated before you can only apply one weapon buff at a time on a weapon so you will just cast one or the other, but not both silver and deadly weapons for example. I think you are overcomplicating this.

The dr weapons buffs I do not think is worth casting unless someone specifically asks for it over deadly weapons. I will just give everyone deadly weapons which from my reading is one cast on each party member (only exception is if they have to swap weapons do to fighting different targets) whether that player is a twf or thf. I do not plan to make people wait for my buffs, but will just keep casting as we run i.e. I buff with the other buffers and when they are done buffing I am still buffing but I buff on the run. Armor of speed does not stack with haste so why someone would cast that when haste is prevalent is beyond me.

The main tank gets a different set of buffs of course. Everyone else if you get the opportunity can get more of the other arti nice buffs. I want to say that I think nerds are cool. There is such a thing as buff nerds - they are not necessarily anti-zerg but can just keep buffing while they zerge. Buff nerds take a special joy in giving that melee or caster whatever little extra bump so they can realize their full potential haha.

TreknaQudane
08-25-2011, 12:18 PM
Oh, and the tank needs that Radiant Forcefield thing you do to mitigate the damage. Right! I'm on it.


Have you seen the duration of Radiant Forcefield? It's an oh **** button, it's not a buff. It lasts 30 seconds and has a 3 minute cooldown... And you cannot extend it.

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 04:29 PM
As stated before you can only apply one weapon buff at a time on a weapon so you will just cast one or the other, but not both silver and deadly weapons for example.

Actually metal types are the only stacking weapon buff, so for example you can have silver and deadly weapon or silver and holy at the same time but not holy and deadly weapon.

BlackSteel
08-25-2011, 04:48 PM
So will people be buffing the raid on their Artis? You tell me.

hey dark, didnt want to quote the whole post, as it was a little large. but I do agree with u

my impression is that the weapon infusions last ~ 5 min a casting, nonextendable. if thats the case, buffing every person's weapon + armor in a raid is NOT likely to happen. By the time you finish you're both out of SP and the first dozen castings are about to expire.


additionally if we see a change to how base damage is calculated on the weapon itself as alluded to last week, then both deadly weapons and PBS may end up doing slightly less damage anyway. ex: eSoS wouldnt double 5d6 to 10d6; but would only increase by 2d6, as the formula given was something like 2d6 + 1.5(2d6), with deadly weapons increasing the 1.5 => 2.5

personally I'd rather see the infusions get longer durations, but restrict deadly weapons to self casting stackable with one of the insightful lines. leaving the metal/alignment + elemental as the party buffs

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 04:49 PM
As for Arti buffing? It will be a nightmare.


No it wont, cause when asked for buffs most artys will look at the weapons and only buff the good ones:

ESoS: Deadly Weapon grants 5d6 +10 (+15 - 40 damage) totally worth it, no brainier.

Min II G axe: Deadly Weapon would grant 3d6 +5 (+8 - 23 damage), a significant step down from ESoS but still worth my time.

+5 Holy long sword of what ever: Gains 1d8+5 (+6-13 damage) not wasting the sp on that.

Artificers will spend most of ther time deciding weather or not the buff is worth the time and unless you got a beastly weapon, like ESoS, most will probably not buff you as the return on investment is not worth it the SP.

TreknaQudane
08-25-2011, 04:53 PM
No it wont, cause when asked for buffs most artys will look at the weapons and only buff the good ones:

ESoS: deadly weapon grants 5d6 +10 (+15 - 40 damage) totally worth it no brainier.

Min II G axe: Deadly weapon would grant 3d6 +5 (+8 - 23 damage), a significant step down fro mESoS but still worth my time

+5 Holy long sword of what ever: gains 1d8+5

holy cold iron long sword of evil outsider baine... move along please. Artificers will spend most of ther time deciding weather or not the buff is worth the time and unless you got a beastly weapon, like ESoS, most will probably not buff you as the return on investment is not worth it the SP.

From what I saw Deadly Weapons was only increasing the base dice, not the enhancement value of the item as well.

The Metal type buffs definitely don't stack with any others. Only Insightful Damage or Strikes can stack with one of the other buffs.

Perspicacity
08-25-2011, 05:29 PM
From what I saw Deadly Weapons was only increasing the base dice, not the enhancement value of the item as well.

The Metal type buffs definitely don't stack with any others. Only Insightful Damage or Strikes can stack with one of the other buffs.
Honestly I have not had a chance to use deadly weapon yet so im just going on what I have herd from other people but if it doesn't include the enhancement that only strengthens my logic:

Esos: 5d6 (5-30 damage)
Min II G axe: 3d6 (3-18 damage)
long sword of what ever: 1d8 (1-8 damage) <<< Waist of SP, no question

My observation is that metals stack with other weapon augmentations but perhaps I was not paying as close attention as you so I could be wrong though it seems to me to be a futile effort to have to pick either an alignment or a metal when the bosses that you really need DR breakers for need both (ie. Whisperdoom, Adran, Sulu, harry ect).