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xAlistairx
08-18-2011, 09:17 AM
that smells an artificer nerf down the road?

Let's be completely honest with ourselves: they're a ton of fun to play and all, but they're pretty OP.

A class that can UMD, self-heal, do traps, DPS from afar, has a pet, can heal the pet, can heal other's pets, the pet can tank, they don't always use charges, they've got terrific buffs, they can make their weapons and those of their teammates bypass DR, kind of heal their party (scrolls, potion throwing)...the list goes on.

So yeah.

Grosbeak07
08-18-2011, 09:19 AM
I think the nerf bat is coming, but I view it more like a hair cut, the class needs to be trimmed, not sheared.

LupusVai
08-18-2011, 10:11 AM
that smells an artificer nerf down the road?

Let's be completely honest with ourselves: they're a ton of fun to play and all, but they're pretty OP.

A class that can UMD, self-heal, do traps, DPS from afar, has a pet, can heal the pet, can heal other's pets, the pet can tank, they don't always use charges, they've got terrific buffs, they can make their weapons and those of their teammates bypass DR, kind of heal their party (scrolls, potion throwing)...the list goes on.

So yeah.

Wow gratz on getting one to cap already. At least i hope that you've gotten one to cap to make such comments.

From my own limited testing upto level 10. They seem ok at lower levels, not quite as effective as a barb but slightly better than a wizard. At level 7 wizard is much stronger and so is barb. At level 10 wizard and barb are hands down more effective. (if zerging is your play style) I've not gotten past level 10 but they seem to be loosing steam by then. Still fun to play though just not the killing machine they were at low levels. I fully suspect that at higher levels they will be quite subpar dps as they seem fairly front loaded at this point i would say that they become much more effective in a group as a support role. They strike me as an end game bard type party slot...

One or two people are commenting OMG they so OP but I highly doubt they've had much chance to play higher level content to any extent yet.

Arvess
08-18-2011, 10:27 AM
I just think what you get for free feat-wise at lvl 1 should be spread out through levels 1-4. Repeaters are exotic - not really in the same class as shuriken or kama but more like a kopesh. You shouldn't get them for free at lvl 1. Give Arties something to look forward to as they level up. Maybe lvl 2 if you want to dangle low hanging fruit. Or give Rapid Reload out at lvl 2-3.

FooWonk
08-18-2011, 11:12 AM
In Enter the Kobold, I had two level 20 artificers join me.

One died to some trash and shrine rezzed and piked rest of quest.

The other was warforged and had great survivability, but fell short on DPS to my level 18 shintao. Their blade barriers probably had some great damage potential, but those cramped caverns don't leave much room for kiting. Any blade barrier specced artificer will have to spend 19 AP for full effect though. That's a big AP commitment for a single damage spell that can be completely resisted by evaders.

I don't even find the capstone to be all that overpowering. It will be good for non-Warforged artificers to scroll heal themselves and to cast longer lasting buffs off clickies and consumables.

And the improved ranged RoF is a bit crazy at low-levels IF you front load your feats with point blank shot, rapid shot & quick draw. With three feats dedicated to improving your range DPS, your range DPS SHOULD IMPROVE. If any tweak balance the ranged DPS out needs to be made it would be to spread out the levels that an artificer get the various exotic XBows.

In all honesty, give all the feats up front is just fine. Folks will not have "teh awesomeness" repeater at level 1 except for when they're twinked. And there's plenty of other ML:0 & ML:1 items available that already make twinked characters untouchable for levels 1 through 8.

Shade mentioned in another thread that there's a way to use xbows that sounds more like an exploit than WAI that speeds up the reload phase. I couldn't reproduce it though.

All in all, it's a good utility class. There will be some interesting builds. There will be a lot of gimps.

Doganpc
08-18-2011, 11:32 AM
that smells an artificer nerf down the road?
I did, to be totally honest I think I said they would either be so middling that nobody would want to use them or so powerful that everybody will want to roll one. IIRC people stated that Warforged originally were pretty weak, but then were made awesome. They could be going the other way with this one, look how awesome it is! *nerf* k, thanks for buying.

Dogan
Cruel marketing + Content now patch later = :('s

Seikojin
08-18-2011, 12:22 PM
In Enter the Kobold, I had two level 20 artificers join me.

One died to some trash and shrine rezzed and piked rest of quest.

The other was warforged and had great survivability, but fell short on DPS to my level 18 shintao. Their blade barriers probably had some great damage potential, but those cramped caverns don't leave much room for kiting. Any blade barrier specced artificer will have to spend 19 AP for full effect though. That's a big AP commitment for a single damage spell that can be completely resisted by evaders.

I don't even find the capstone to be all that overpowering. It will be good for non-Warforged artificers to scroll heal themselves and to cast longer lasting buffs off clickies and consumables.

And the improved ranged RoF is a bit crazy at low-levels IF you front load your feats with point blank shot, rapid shot & quick draw. With three feats dedicated to improving your range DPS, your range DPS SHOULD IMPROVE. If any tweak balance the ranged DPS out needs to be made it would be to spread out the levels that an artificer get the various exotic XBows.

In all honesty, give all the feats up front is just fine. Folks will not have "teh awesomeness" repeater at level 1 except for when they're twinked. And there's plenty of other ML:0 & ML:1 items available that already make twinked characters untouchable for levels 1 through 8.

Shade mentioned in another thread that there's a way to use xbows that sounds more like an exploit than WAI that speeds up the reload phase. I couldn't reproduce it though.

All in all, it's a good utility class. There will be some interesting builds. There will be a lot of gimps.

It isn't all that hard. Try using repeaters like you were twitching with thf.

xAlistairx
08-18-2011, 06:06 PM
@LupusVai

Contrary to how you may think, the game DOES exist outside of epic/cap. In fact...get ready for this... epic and cap are 1/20 of the levels!!!!

I know, I was shocked too!

Honestly though, I called it like I've seen it. Have I gotten to cap? No. But if they're OP 1-19, and just meh 20, does it make a difference? They were still OP.

@Arvess

That's a good point.

@FooWonk

Bad run? I wouldn't say an artificer needs to waste 19 AP into BB to make it worthwhile. I'd say any who did that are just gimping themselves. Artificers have much more utility than that.

@DoganPC

Sad, but possibly true.

Aerendil
08-18-2011, 07:09 PM
In Enter the Kobold, I had two level 20 artificers join me.

One died to some trash and shrine rezzed and piked rest of quest.

The other was warforged and had great survivability, but fell short on DPS to my level 18 shintao. Their blade barriers probably had some great damage potential, but those cramped caverns don't leave much room for kiting. Any blade barrier specced artificer will have to spend 19 AP for full effect though. That's a big AP commitment for a single damage spell that can be completely resisted by evaders.

I don't even find the capstone to be all that overpowering. It will be good for non-Warforged artificers to scroll heal themselves and to cast longer lasting buffs off clickies and consumables.

And the improved ranged RoF is a bit crazy at low-levels IF you front load your feats with point blank shot, rapid shot & quick draw. With three feats dedicated to improving your range DPS, your range DPS SHOULD IMPROVE. If any tweak balance the ranged DPS out needs to be made it would be to spread out the levels that an artificer get the various exotic XBows.

In all honesty, give all the feats up front is just fine. Folks will not have "teh awesomeness" repeater at level 1 except for when they're twinked. And there's plenty of other ML:0 & ML:1 items available that already make twinked characters untouchable for levels 1 through 8.

Shade mentioned in another thread that there's a way to use xbows that sounds more like an exploit than WAI that speeds up the reload phase. I couldn't reproduce it though.

All in all, it's a good utility class. There will be some interesting builds. There will be a lot of gimps.

^^ This.
It's a really fun class from 1-12 or so, and very easy to level up. But after that, the real dps start to shine and I'm afraid Artificer may fall behind. We'll see, I guess.

Llama isn't the purest grounds for testing, as most non-Arti's have green steel and full gear.
Most Artis I know are missing their gear slots, and still using Korthos weaponry.

I'd imagine an Artificer fully x-bow specced with a Lit 2 (with Silver Weapon cast) in Shroud could do alright.

jcTharin
08-18-2011, 07:13 PM
^^ This.
It's a really fun class from 1-12 or so, and very easy to level up. But after that, the real dps start to shine and I'm afraid Artificer may fall behind. We'll see, I guess.

Llama isn't the purest grounds for testing, as most non-Arti's have green steel and full gear.
Most Artis I know are missing their gear slots, and still using Korthos weaponry.

I'd imagine an Artificer fully x-bow specced with a Lit 2 (with Silver Weapon cast) in Shroud could do alright.

my arti was using a +3 bow at level 9 :D

I have 5 empty item slots i think.

Angelus_dead
08-18-2011, 07:17 PM
Contrary to how you may think, the game DOES exist outside of epic/cap. In fact...get ready for this... epic and cap are 1/20 of the levels!!!!
DDO is very easy at non-high level, so most all classes are overpowered there.

The devs have already killed low-level balance by allowing higher-level characters to send down a huge pile of supplies.

Aashrym
08-18-2011, 07:23 PM
^^ This.
It's a really fun class from 1-12 or so, and very easy to level up. But after that, the real dps start to shine and I'm afraid Artificer may fall behind. We'll see, I guess.

Llama isn't the purest grounds for testing, as most non-Arti's have green steel and full gear.
Most Artis I know are missing their gear slots, and still using Korthos weaponry.

I'd imagine an Artificer fully x-bow specced with a Lit 2 (with Silver Weapon cast) in Shroud could do alright.

I had the same thing. Great at low levels, starting to slow down into less damage more buffing. Definitely a fun class. I cannot see the damage from the crossbow holding out by level 20 but will see when I get there.

Aashrym
08-18-2011, 07:30 PM
@LupusVai

Contrary to how you may think, the game DOES exist outside of epic/cap. In fact...get ready for this... epic and cap are 1/20 of the levels!!!!

Maybe but it is a lot bigger portion of the game than your ratio, and level 20 is where all characters end up eventually.

I am really enjoying the class, I just think the crossbow benefits seem to be a bit front loaded.

Solmage
08-18-2011, 07:35 PM
I heard the same thing when monks were released. Omg self healing omg buffs omg CC omg they're the OPs nerf nerf nerf!

And on live, they became the butts of most jokes (much to the chagrin of the devs) and nobody played one once this was established, for the first, what six months? 1 year? until they finally got boosted unto a reasonable level.

Artificers have "decent" DPS, nice buffs both to party and to self, and fairly basic party healing. (Remind you of any other class? yeah.. they're like bards..). They don't have anywhere near the DPS of a wizard (nevermind a sorcerer, heh..) or a barbarian.

But their DPS is ranged, so they can pull a mob of creatures from downtown, have a blade barrier waiting for them, and by the time the improved precise shot mob gets home, they will be finished off on the BB. It's a pretty good soloing class if you go warforged to have decent self healing, but it does not begin to compare to how powerful a warforged wizard or sorcerer would be, or for that matter, a favored soul.

They do have something really unique here, and they're FUN to play, and for the first time, a ranged weapons class is FUN to play. Omg, we can't have this in ddo, this has to be nerfed asap!!

Solmage
08-18-2011, 07:37 PM
@LupusVai

Contrary to how you may think, the game DOES exist outside of epic/cap. In fact...get ready for this... epic and cap are 1/20 of the levels!!!!

I know, I was shocked too!

Contrary to what you may believe, when you spend 2 weeks on levels 1-19 and multiple years at level 20, the game in fact consists of level 20 for a very large percentage of the population, except those TRing for the purpose of - you guessed it - being better at said level 20.

I know, I was shocked too that this wasn't more obvious.

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-18-2011, 07:47 PM
well, I might agree.

At Level 10, with nothing but stuff i looted most of it korthos equipment since i have a bad luck with loot. A +5 heavy repeater (plain one) I got from the DDO store and a +4 docent..... I solo'd Stormcleave hard at level 10. it was close, at the boss fight i got knocked down to echos and had run out of fusillades.

Ziindarax
08-18-2011, 08:32 PM
I heard the same thing when monks were released. Omg self healing omg buffs omg CC omg they're the OPs nerf nerf nerf!

And on live, they became the butts of most jokes (much to the chagrin of the devs) and nobody played one once this was established, for the first, what six months? 1 year? until they finally got boosted unto a reasonable level.

Artificers have "decent" DPS, nice buffs both to party and to self, and fairly basic party healing. (Remind you of any other class? yeah.. they're like bards..). They don't have anywhere near the DPS of a wizard (nevermind a sorcerer, heh..) or a barbarian.

But their DPS is ranged, so they can pull a mob of creatures from downtown, have a blade barrier waiting for them, and by the time the improved precise shot mob gets home, they will be finished off on the BB. It's a pretty good soloing class if you go warforged to have decent self healing, but it does not begin to compare to how powerful a warforged wizard or sorcerer would be, or for that matter, a favored soul.

They do have something really unique here, and they're FUN to play, and for the first time, a ranged weapons class is FUN to play. Omg, we can't have this in ddo, this has to be nerfed asap!!

I hear you man.

The Artificers, as they currently are on Lamannia are so much fun that I am actually WILLING(!) to TR my main on Orien into one when they hit live... assuming Turbine doesn't listen to the detractors, and nerf the class for their sake.

Artificer spell DPS doesn't even BEGIN to compare to sorcerer, wizard, or cleric/fvs spell dps, nor should it. For what the Artificers have, it's sufficient. Even more remarkable, is the fact that they can make the best out of nearly ANY crossbow... Even the crappy Korthos Ember Light repeater was used to great effect in the Cannith Manufactory.

Veriden
08-18-2011, 08:39 PM
well, I might agree.

At Level 10, with nothing but stuff i looted most of it korthos equipment since i have a bad luck with loot. A +5 heavy repeater (plain one) I got from the DDO store and a +4 docent..... I solo'd Stormcleave hard at level 10. it was close, at the boss fight i got knocked down to echos and had run out of fusillades.

I hate you...I'm lvl 11 using a +1 shock touch repeating heavy xbow b/c literally no other repeater has dropped for me since kobolds new ringleader...

Tenkari_Rozahas
08-18-2011, 08:41 PM
I hate you...I'm lvl 11 using a +1 shock touch repeating heavy xbow b/c literally no other repeater has dropped for me since kobolds new ringleader...

like i said. I bought it from the DDO store. which also means its uncraftable. Though since i picked up improved crit ranged weapons i might be using my +1 Great XBow of Righteousness (Catacombs end reward for me.).

DragonTroy
08-18-2011, 08:56 PM
artificers, from watching two of them with good builds level up, have some crazy potential. one is a first life, the other is a 3rd life.

the 1st life isnt super awesome. when both of them got flame turrets though they just destroyed everything. mr.1st life is a tad more prone to dying, and doesnt have a lot of gear, minus a really sick xbow he made. wounding of puncturing with insightful damage. and in the pre manyshot-like ability, and made he can shoot down some mobs.

but the 1st life pales in comparison to the 3rd life. hes got some quite nice gear. ioun stone, a few gs items, and those build points im sure helped. improved precise shot, bladebarriers, im amazed to say is an incredibly dangerous new combo we will be seeing. maxed emp'd BBs do quite nice damage, and add in the bolts flying everywhere. this guy destroys. and can get every traps he's come across(didnt run through cabal though, to be fair). he can use heal scrolls. in general questing, he does crazy well.

both these toons are played by very skilled players btw.

im not going to lie, when i 1st saw artificers, they seemed like they were nothing but a techno bard. but, they bring some nice things to the table. and they can buff the party very well. deadly weapons especially seems awesome. and they will be really helpful for tanking with the new buffed up raid bosses. 10% boost to the tanks max hp, and an aura that stops 25% of damage. freaking crazy helpful. they may actually be needed for things like elite TOD


all in all, as much as i hate to say it, they are over powered. but, im going to agree with what Grosbeak07 said. they dont need a gigantic class changing nerf. just a little simmering down

Postumus
08-18-2011, 09:03 PM
Contrary to what you may believe, when you spend 2 weeks on levels 1-19 and multiple years at level 20, the game in fact consists of level 20 for a very large percentage of the population, except those TRing for the purpose of - you guessed it - being better at said level 20.

I know, I was shocked too that this wasn't more obvious.


I doubt most players cap in two weeks. But if you have actual numbers to back up your 'facts' (see bold) then please feel free to post them.

Solmage
08-18-2011, 09:22 PM
artificers, from watching two of them with good builds level up, have some crazy potential. one is a first life, the other is a 3rd life.

the 1st life isnt super awesome. when both of them got flame turrets though they just destroyed everything. mr.1st life is a tad more prone to dying, and doesnt have a lot of gear, minus a really sick xbow he made. wounding of puncturing with insightful damage. and in the pre manyshot-like ability, and made he can shoot down some mobs.

but the 1st life pales in comparison to the 3rd life. hes got some quite nice gear. ioun stone, a few gs items, and those build points im sure helped. improved precise shot, bladebarriers, im amazed to say is an incredibly dangerous new combo we will be seeing. maxed emp'd BBs do quite nice damage, and add in the bolts flying everywhere. this guy destroys. and can get every traps he's come across(didnt run through cabal though, to be fair). he can use heal scrolls. in general questing, he does crazy well.

both these toons are played by very skilled players btw.

im not going to lie, when i 1st saw artificers, they seemed like they were nothing but a techno bard. but, they bring some nice things to the table. and they can buff the party very well. deadly weapons especially seems awesome. and they will be really helpful for tanking with the new buffed up raid bosses. 10% boost to the tanks max hp, and an aura that stops 25% of damage. freaking crazy helpful. they may actually be needed for things like elite TOD


all in all, as much as i hate to say it, they are over powered. but, im going to agree with what Grosbeak07 said. they dont need a gigantic class changing nerf. just a little simmering down

Have you seen a 3rd life warforged sorcerer in action when played by a very skilled player? I suggest you compare it to that.

Nagantor
08-18-2011, 09:38 PM
Yes, long term players usually reach the point where they cap in a short time as they know all the quests very well. But most players never reach that point, they quit before. You can easily play a few years, cap characters over the course of months, spend a lot of time in game and never power level as the default.
Elite players may think everyone will develop towards them, but the truth is that most will leave to other games first.

Arkadios
08-19-2011, 05:19 AM
My level 15 artificer is able to solo quests at the same ease as my ranger and my monk (both at 16 now) Which means it's sitting where it's ment to be with the self-suffiecent classes.

It's able to solo through spells/Dog and repeater I think if you nerfed any of them it would drop below the self-suffecient classes, and then where would we be?

If you focus on any single part of an artificer (spells/traps/xbows/dog) it wouldn't be very good so you have to spread yourself thin feat/APwise which is how it should be.

During leveling I had a hellfire crossbow (one of the toons I transfered had it) Then I got a flaming of puncturing heavy repeater from a reward from the attack on stormreach chain.

I found that if you PuG on lam most of the people there are the people that read the forums and as a whole they are experienced players, meaning that they may seem OP in the same way that when a newbie groups with a vet TR group would think they're OP.

On the whole it's a good fun class, Turbine thank you. :)

blkcat1028
08-19-2011, 05:29 AM
My initial impression was that they were over powered. The more I played I realized that it wasn't the class itself, but how well the class suited play style.

This is a fun class to play and it's power is more a measure of the player than anything else.

budalic
08-19-2011, 05:31 AM
It seems to me that players preferring non-casters (as in totally heal-sponge beatsticks) come to artificer and say: 'OMG! OP! NERF!!!'. On the other hand, it seems players that had played spellcastercasters come and say 'Meh. Xbow < Dots; no instakills; but best BBs in game, at least' and say they are OK if a bit strange. So, I guess it's a matter of perspective.

Jacoby
08-19-2011, 05:34 AM
that smells an artificer nerf down the road?

Let's be completely honest with ourselves: they're a ton of fun to play and all, but they're pretty OP.

A class that can UMD, self-heal, do traps, DPS from afar, has a pet, can heal the pet, can heal other's pets, the pet can tank, they don't always use charges, they've got terrific buffs, they can make their weapons and those of their teammates bypass DR, kind of heal their party (scrolls, potion throwing)...the list goes on.

So yeah.

What level did you get to and how well was the DPS at that level?

There are two things I've noted. 1) If you max your intel and take a moderate con of 16 you Dex will suffer making it harder to hit. 2) If you Augment your to hit through spells to overcome this you cannot augment you damage. There fore you have two options; a) Splash 6 levels of rogue to get mechanic or b) balance your stats. They are still pretty stout at low levels but not so much at higher levels.

Jacoby
08-19-2011, 05:37 AM
My level 15 artificer is able to solo quests at the same ease as my ranger and my monk (both at 16 now) Which means it's sitting where it's ment to be with the self-suffiecent classes.

It's able to solo through spells/Dog and repeater I think if you nerfed any of them it would drop below the self-suffecient classes, and then where would we be?

If you focus on any single part of an artificer (spells/traps/xbows/dog) it wouldn't be very good so you have to spread yourself thin feat/APwise which is how it should be.

During leveling I had a hellfire crossbow (one of the toons I transfered had it) Then I got a flaming of puncturing heavy repeater from a reward from the attack on stormreach chain.

I found that if you PuG on lam most of the people there are the people that read the forums and as a whole they are experienced players, meaning that they may seem OP in the same way that when a newbie groups with a vet TR group would think they're OP.

On the whole it's a good fun class, Turbine thank you. :)

Agreed 100%, any nerf to this class could possibly ruin it's potential playability. Yes everyone running around Korthos is having a blast but how well is it doing in a Shroud?

Alintalkin
08-19-2011, 08:50 AM
On earlier levels it seemed op but as I get my artificer higher in level it no longer feels that way. That is how many classes feel when played right, even if under geared, and I am finding it well balanced now. There might be a game breaker I don't know about but I haven't found it yet.

jbartoli
08-19-2011, 09:11 AM
that smells an artificer nerf down the road?

Let's be completely honest with ourselves: they're a ton of fun to play and all, but they're pretty OP.

A class that can UMD, self-heal, do traps, DPS from afar, has a pet, can heal the pet, can heal other's pets, the pet can tank, they don't always use charges, they've got terrific buffs, they can make their weapons and those of their teammates bypass DR, kind of heal their party (scrolls, potion throwing)...the list goes on.

So yeah.

I agree with you that they are over powered but that's what Beta testing is for. This seems like a good thread to make some suggestions in. And here are mine (for what they are worth):

Chages to the Artifacer:

1. Make the Pet only summonable in dungeons once per rest. Not much of a fix but it least it makes them a little less OP

2. Increase the spell point cost for Personal Augmentations by at least 50%.

3. Remove the Artifacers Cure spells, to me it does not fit the build at all. The repair spells are the appropriate ones.

4. Remove the Shield Proficiency from the character. Make a character pay a feat for it if they want it.

5. Rune Arm use? Haven't plade with this yet so I'll leave it open.

I'll add more as I think of them.

xAlistairx
08-19-2011, 09:44 AM
I agree with you that they are over powered but that's what Beta testing is for. This seems like a good thread to make some suggestions in. And here are mine (for what they are worth):

Chages to the Artifacer:

1. Make the Pet only summonable in dungeons once per rest. Not much of a fix but it least it makes them a little less OP

2. Increase the spell point cost for Personal Augmentations by at least 50%.

3. Remove the Artifacers Cure spells, to me it does not fit the build at all. The repair spells are the appropriate ones.

4. Remove the Shield Proficiency from the character. Make a character pay a feat for it if they want it.

5. Rune Arm use? Haven't plade with this yet so I'll leave it open.

I'll add more as I think of them.

Those are good suggestions IMO, and turning this into a suggestions for balance thread would probably be more productive.

Additionally, I would add the gradual unlocking of exotic X-Bows like has been suggested in the thread before. Or have Rapid Reload granted at level 3ish? 5? I don't know. Less early.

TheDjinnFor
08-19-2011, 10:02 AM
Have you seen a 3rd life warforged sorcerer in action when played by a very skilled player? I suggest you compare it to that.

3rd life? Weaksauce. Completionist sorcs are where it's at :p

Letrii
08-19-2011, 10:44 AM
1. Make the Pet only summonable in dungeons once per rest. Not much of a fix but it least it makes them a little less OP


What is this intended to solve? You already have limit of reviving pet once per rest. Dismissing and resummoning does not add any power. From what I have seen, summoning pet carries over hp damage it had taken before being dismissed. If pet died, you need to use revive ability, can't just dismiss and resummon to bring back to life.

MaxwellEdison
08-19-2011, 10:55 AM
I'm fine with all crossbows proficiencies at lvl 1. What other class spreads out arms/armor proficiencies? A fighter doesn't have to wait for level 6 to equip heavy armor. A barbarian isn't stuck using a greatsword until they level up enough to unlock the greataxe they really wanted to use.

Rapid reload? Sure, push it back to 3 won't do much but discourage level 1 splashing a bit more.

budalic
08-19-2011, 11:23 AM
I agree with you that they are over powered but that's what Beta testing is for. This seems like a good thread to make some suggestions in. And here are mine (for what they are worth):

Chages to the Artifacer:

1. Make the Pet only summonable in dungeons once per rest. Not much of a fix but it least it makes them a little less OP

2. Increase the spell point cost for Personal Augmentations by at least 50%.

3. Remove the Artifacers Cure spells, to me it does not fit the build at all. The repair spells are the appropriate ones.

4. Remove the Shield Proficiency from the character. Make a character pay a feat for it if they want it.

5. Rune Arm use? Haven't plade with this yet so I'll leave it open.

I'll add more as I think of them.

No.

The question to ask is; 'Is the class better than FvS?'. Answer is: 'No'. So no nerfs.

FvS because of two reasons: It's current Top Dog; and it's another pay-for-use class. For the record, I also feel it's worse than Clr, Wiz and Sorc. Haven't tested it at high levels to comment on other classes.

Shield prof is odd, though... I wouldn't mind with that being abandoned.

LupusVai
08-19-2011, 05:21 PM
@LupusVai

Contrary to how you may think, the game DOES exist outside of epic/cap. In fact...get ready for this... epic and cap are 1/20 of the levels!!!!

I know, I was shocked too!

Honestly though, I called it like I've seen it. Have I gotten to cap? No. But if they're OP 1-19, and just meh 20, does it make a difference? They were still OP.



Well i can tell you from experience. Repeaters are pretty awfull from about level 10 onwards (even on a mechanic getting stacks of sneak attack damage they're still worse than any melee class for damage output). Artifcers certainly are not OP from level 10 onwards. Also if you're basing your opinions on the fact that there is abug/exploit with xbows at the momment where by twitching is providing quicker shooting. (see eladrins post about it not working as intended) The actual real powerfull aspect of the artifcer is the blade barriers which have the potential to be devestating if heavily specced into. All be it the DC's will be lower than FvS or cleric and they wont have the SP to cast as many.

Either you must be a terrible player with whatever other class you play (and i'm guessing you're a barb player from your crying nerf), or you havent actually played artificer past level 7 or 8 to even begin to think that they are OP or you're just plain trolling. I've played every class to cap apart from cleric and upto level 15 artificer. Artificer isnt as good as any pure caster and no where near as good as any melee at their respective fields and as its a jack of all trades that makes sense.

It will be a fun class, a flexible class and a viable solo class but it will never be an uber class.

What really phases me though about this whole OP complaint you are making is that the game is pve. I'll never understand why people cry, moan, call for nerfs and complain about other classes when the whole point of the game is working together...

xAlistairx
08-19-2011, 05:42 PM
Well i can tell you from experience. Repeaters are pretty awfull from about level 10 onwards (even on a mechanic getting stacks of sneak attack damage they're still worse than any melee class for damage output). Artifcers certainly are not OP from level 10 onwards. Also if you're basing your opinions on the fact that there is abug/exploit with xbows at the momment where by twitching is providing quicker shooting. (see eladrins post about it not working as intended) The actual real powerfull aspect of the artifcer is the blade barriers which have the potential to be devestating if heavily specced into. All be it the DC's will be lower than FvS or cleric and they wont have the SP to cast as many.

Either you must be a terrible player with whatever other class you play (and i'm guessing you're a barb player from your crying nerf), or you havent actually played artificer past level 7 or 8 to even begin to think that they are OP or you're just plain trolling. I've played every class to cap apart from cleric and upto level 15 artificer. Artificer isnt as good as any pure caster and no where near as good as any melee at their respective fields and as its a jack of all trades that makes sense.

It will be a fun class, a flexible class and a viable solo class but it will never be an uber class.

What really phases me though about this whole OP complaint you are making is that the game is pve. I'll never understand why people cry, moan, call for nerfs and complain about other classes when the whole point of the game is working together...

Well, actually, my main played class is NOT barbarian. It's worse...Paladin!

But, no, I am not calling for a nerf to their spell selection (passing DR). I just feel like they can do it all with little to give up. Nearly every class has something they have to give up (even Favored Souls can't get traps), but artificers can handle just about everything.

LupusVai
08-19-2011, 06:00 PM
I just feel like they can do it all with little to give up. Nearly every class has something they have to give up (even Favored Souls can't get traps), but artificers can handle just about everything.

I think thought thats kind of the point of them they're a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Ok at them all but not really great at any of them. Its another bard type hybrid.

DDO is pretty much geared up to a min max approach and if you want to do well in epics and raids there is a certain level of expectation on what you should be doing. A group will want a barb/kensi for melee dps, a fvs/cleric for healing, a sorc of wizard for nuking/crowd controll and so on (in simple terms without going into specific builds ). Where does the hybrid charcter fit in? Yep it can do a bit of all but its not going to be as good at any one thing as the characters that are built for it.

My guess is that there will be some superb artificers out there that do very well but these will be played by the same people who play superb what ever character they play. For the most part though most artificers will just be taking up slots which could be better filled by something else.

NytCrawlr
08-19-2011, 06:16 PM
They do have something really unique here, and they're FUN to play, and for the first time, a ranged weapons class is FUN to play. Omg, we can't have this in ddo, this has to be nerfed asap!!

Yep! I say they nerf the range pass that is probably coming in U12 before it even gets here! ;)

(Geez, looking forward to actually being able to play a range character that can deal competent damage and not have to switch to TWF DPS mode in between multi-shot cooldowns, not that I do that now, in fact I outright refuse! :p Hard enough keeping one weapon specked up without having to worry about two others.)

xAlistairx
08-19-2011, 06:17 PM
I think thought thats kind of the point of them they're a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Ok at them all but not really great at any of them. Its another bard type hybrid.

DDO is pretty much geared up to a min max approach and if you want to do well in epics and raids there is a certain level of expectation on what you should be doing. A group will want a barb/kensi for melee dps, a fvs/cleric for healing, a sorc of wizard for nuking/crowd controll and so on (in simple terms without going into specific builds ). Where does the hybrid charcter fit in? Yep it can do a bit of all but its not going to be as good at any one thing as the characters that are built for it.

My guess is that there will be some superb artificers out there that do very well but these will be played by the same people who play superb what ever character they play. For the most part though most artificers will just be taking up slots which could be better filled by something else.

I completely see what you're saying, but think about an 18 bard/2 rogue. They should be a lot like artificers, right?

I have no testing to prove this, so I may be making an idiot of myself, but I'd imagine that a 20 artificer would be a lot more desirable than an 18 bard/2 rogue.

xAlistairx
08-19-2011, 06:29 PM
Yep! I say they nerf the range pass that is probably coming in U12 before it even gets here! ;)

(Geez, looking forward to actually being able to play a range character that can deal competent damage and not have to switch to TWF DPS mode in between multi-shot cooldowns, not that I do that now, in fact I outright refuse! :p Hard enough keeping one weapon specked up without having to worry about two others.)

Trust me, I have NO PROBLEM with ranged becoming useful.

If artificers hadn't existed, and crossbows just became better, I would've been so pumped. Rogue Mechanics would be useful, people could build around crossbows if they wanted to without their flavor choice gimping their characters...

Do not mistake this for a call to nerf crossbows.

dlsidhe
08-19-2011, 07:21 PM
I agree with you that they are over powered but that's what Beta testing is for. This seems like a good thread to make some suggestions in. And here are mine (for what they are worth):

There's a difference between "overpowered" and "able to do a little of everything." Bards aren't considered OP. Think of Artificers like a buffed bard...except without the melee skills. Or the crowd control. Or the healing spells. Okay, so not like a bard at all. More like a prebuilt WizRogue without evasion. Or high DCs. Okay, so not like that at all. So like a ranger. But without TWF. Or bow strength...

...see? Artificers are different, and seem OP, but they're not great at anything, they're just good at a lot.


1. Make the Pet only summonable in dungeons once per rest. Not much of a fix but it least it makes them a little less OP

This immediately sounds wrong, because pets aren't OP. They're useful, but they're part of the solo-friendliness of the class - you get a portatank. I'm building mine, seriously, as an evasion tank.


2. Increase the spell point cost for Personal Augmentations by at least 50%.

Why? We can only have one at a time. I buffed dex on my build so I can take the one for damage, but if I'm losing to-hit, then I have to drop damage to get the bonus to-hit from my int. It's - and this is my mantra for Artificer - resource management and situational usefulness. Nothing is fire-and-forget (except Endless Fusillade).


3. Remove the Artifacers Cure spells, to me it does not fit the build at all. The repair spells are the appropriate ones.

You mean the ones that don't scale with level well, and require use of a potion? Making a potion into a grenade is exactly up the Artificer's alley. They aren't "cure spells," they're "potion grenades" of positive effect.


4. Remove the Shield Proficiency from the character. Make a character pay a feat for it if they want it.

I'm fine with this. There's no reason for shield proficiency...xbows and rune arms exclude it.


5. Rune Arm use? Haven't plade with this yet so I'll leave it open.

...and this tells me you haven't really played with an Artificer, and are basing these things off hearsay.

Artificers do a lot. However, they don't melee like any melee toon, they don't heal like a divine, they don't nuke like a sorcerer, they don't adapt like a wiz, they don't buff like a bard. The only place they overlap is with traps and rogues, but they don't have instakills (or knockdown immunity), sneak attacks, or evasion. Artificers (I'm avoiding the "we," even though I think the class may become my main once it goes live) are jack-of-all-trades, but they require skill to play well.

Soloing, which is what I do, requires:

1) No zerging. No evasion means you can't find a trap with your face. Slow and steady, find the control box...
2) Being a healer. Apart from keeping yourself alive with only moderate hit dice and limited AC, you also have a dumb pet to watch that likes to run into trouble. I can't wait to put evasion on my puppy.
3) Being a ranged melee. That means, also, no zerging. Spot your target, open fire, don't run out of ammo (easy on a repeater)...keep puppy alive...oh no, no real melee proficiences, kite kite kite, puppy gets kill credit.
4) Being a caster. Repeat above, but drop a lightning sphere or a blasting rod. Sorry puppy, you don't get credit for that one.

You have to do all these things, and do them decently, to solo on an artificer. In a group, you might get to pike along in exchange for your crazy weapon buffs, but they aren't going to be looking to you to contribute much past buffs and hitting the traps the rogue is having trouble with.

No nerfs are necessary, just an understanding that artificers are radically different than other classes.

It's partially, I think, that crossbows just went from "gimp" to "viable," and with Artis being everywhere on Llamaland the combination of "new things" is too much. A fighter with a repeater is going to do more damage. Way more damage. Especially if they get buffed by the artificer. Higher BAB, more weapons feats, kensai, etc. A mechanic is going to do more damage - higher BAB from higher DEX, sneak attack die, and INT score added to damage. Way more damage. Especially if buffed by the artificer.

This new thing, it is not bad. It is different. Like monks are different than other "melee" classes. Monks and Artis (coincidentally, my current two favorite classes) are great for soloing...if you can manage all they do. In groups, they're great for support...if you can manage all they do.

budalic
08-20-2011, 02:17 AM
I have no testing to prove this, so I may be making an idiot of myself, but I'd imagine that a 20 artificer would be a lot more desirable than an 18 bard/2 rogue.

Not necesarily. The problem with bards is that build variety is rather extreme - you have madstone boots no casting bards on one end of spectrum and spellsinger healer-buffer bards on other end. Deadly weapons is about as good as inspire courage (unless buffed players have to-hit issues, in wich case nothing artificer has can compare with IC); both classes can buff; both classes will probably have similar DPS (melee DPS, that is. xbow will probably deal less damage than melee). Artificer has better offensive spellcasting, sure, but has no dots or instakills, so offensive casting will be quite sporadic. However, BB with full force amp will probably be a very good tool.

So, Artificer wins because of BB, unless party has to-hit issues, in wich case bard mops the floor with Arti.

EDIT: In raid enviroment, however, Arti has better damage buffs if good/silver/whatever buffed weapons deals more damage than deadlied DR breaker. Still, Bard is very close. Also, SS bards will probably make all Divine casters in party very happy, and all Arcane casters somewhat happy; while Artificers will be rather 'mehed'. So, melee SS bard stomps all over Arti. Melee SS bard because that's the current way to build SS. Bard CC is rather meh at the moment.

wax_on_wax_off
08-20-2011, 02:30 AM
IF you front load your feats with point blank shot, rapid shot & quick draw.

According to DDOwiki Quickdraw (http://ddowiki.com/page/Quick_Draw) doesn't increase the RoF of crossbows (only thrown weapons).

That means that for RoF, an Artificer only needs to pick up Rapid Shot (which requires Point Blank Shot or 2 ranger levels).

I'm curious to see how the balance works out at high levels too. Makes me itch to get back to playing. Maybe next month.

Culver.Civello
08-20-2011, 02:32 AM
....Lots of Stuff...

+1 Bravo. Very well said and I absolutely agree.

Jacoby
08-20-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm still not seeing how this class is that OP. The spell buffs are great at low level but unless you build this toon right it will be very tough to play at higher levels because your just not going to put out the huge damage numbers like a Barb or Sorc. You'll still be a wanted class for you DR bypasses and/or deadly weapons buffs. Coupled with a Bard in the Raid and your DPS Classes are gonna rock.

I personally like things as they are. Many of you are soo focussed on the repeater that you barely even noticed the spells. They are really kinda weak at end game with exception of the buffs and also a bit slow. Let the class make it into the game. I'd like to see what contribution they make to end game content before I start turning the man loose on nerfs. When you open that box you generally don't like the outcome, something gets broke and it's another two years before the class is playable again.