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View Full Version : Mech + insightful damage not stacking.



Scraap
08-18-2011, 08:37 AM
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9899/testnpa.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3073/testcopyr.jpg

Seems mech and insightful damage don't stack with this particular build.

Test was made with a 6/6 mechanic/arti, with the crossbow enhancements, the korthos great crossbow, repeater, and a light I grabbed out of the harbor weapons shop.

Anyone want to crosscheck?

rimble
08-18-2011, 09:03 AM
I cannot fully express how sad this makes me...

karl_k0ch
08-18-2011, 09:04 AM
I can't see the damage numbers in the combat log. Is it possible that it is just a display error?

dkyle
08-18-2011, 09:07 AM
Yep, looks that way. If the bonus were just hidden, the 10 damage hit (8+2 blocked) in the second pic would have been impossible.

Have you put in a bug report?

karl_k0ch
08-18-2011, 09:12 AM
Yep, looks that way. If the bonus were just hidden, the 10 damage hit (8+2 blocked) in the second pic would have been impossible.

Edit: You're right.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18.

If one of the bonuses would not be appied, a damage range of 7 to 14 would be possible.



The third attack in the second SS shows the following: You hit for 13 after 2 where blocked by DR, i.e. a total damage of 15. This would not be possible via 1d8 + 6 damage, provided it is not a critical hit. Edit: but it is possible via Point Blank Shot range.

OP, could you state your enhancements and the fortification of your target (which I think is 100%).

rimble
08-18-2011, 09:13 AM
Acutally, no.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18. The fact that 10 damage were dealt shows that there is something wrotten in the state of Stormreach.

One must wonder if Point Blank Shot is also in play...need more info/better testing...

Scraap
08-18-2011, 09:17 AM
One must wonder if Point Blank Shot is also in play...need more info/better testing...

First shot was in the bottom of the lobster, so a possibility. Second shot was at the top at two opposing corners, so unlikely.

Shade
08-18-2011, 09:18 AM
um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

karl_k0ch
08-18-2011, 09:20 AM
um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

Yes, one is expecting this when reading the description of the spell/feat.
Can you back up this claim with a quote?

Shade, did you just say that Rogue Mechanics are rather powerful?

Scraap
08-18-2011, 09:21 AM
um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.


Yeah. He did.




There are some differences between the two. Artificers can replace the to-hit or damage stat on a weapon. Mechanics get to add their Intelligence to damage with crossbows. These are different enough that they stack.

Shade
08-18-2011, 09:23 AM
Shade, did you just say that Rogue Mechanics are rather powerful?

No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

rimble
08-18-2011, 09:26 AM
Yeah. He did.

Yeah, that Eladrin quote...I mean, without that comment I would have read them to act separately...

Since Repeaters don't have a damage stat, you need to be Mechanic I to add Int to it. Ok, no problem. So that means Insightful Damage is useful for replacing the Damage stat on melee weapons. That's cool, that's nice, I'll use it on my Artificer to Bludgeon/Slash things sometimes, but in no way implies any sort of stacking.

By adding that little 'These are different enough that they stack' it suddenly implies that Insightful Damage SHOULD work with crossbows, and SHOULD stack with Mechanic I.

So, some WAI clarification would be nice.

Even if they DO stack, by using Insightful Damage you're not using Deadly Weapons or whatever else is out there. Last I read that spell is intended to double your base damage dice I think...so a 2d8 Repeater is 4d8...an average of +9 damage? 3d8 Great Crossbow is 6d8, so +13.5 there. Using Insightful Damage instead would be a little more than that (less in the case of Great Crossbow obviously), but not some earth-shattering difference.

Heaven forbid the non Dwarf-Barbarians get something-something.

karl_k0ch
08-18-2011, 09:36 AM
200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

It's not that unbalanced as it would be for a melee weapon which gets 2*Str-Mod as a damage mod, actually.

As a start, note that it's considered to be perfectly balanced if a Weapon gets 1.5*Mod as a damage bonus, namely all Two-handed weapons.

The main reason is the following: Applying ID to your Crossbow means that you cannot apply IS, which brings Crossbows to the situation to have different stats for attack and damage, similarly to Finessed Weapons. So even if the weapon gets a damage bonus of 2*Intmod, you will still need a second Stat for the hits to land.

A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition. If self-sustained, it needs some Rogue and Artificer Levels which are too many to get the essential ranged feats PS and IPS via 11 Ranger levels for free. So a essential investment in Dex is required to get those, which emphasises the previously discussed MAD problem.

dkyle
08-18-2011, 09:45 AM
Acutally, not quite.

Referring to the second SS, and assuming the OP took two Crossbow Enhancements.
If ID and Mech1 would stack, the damage would be 1d8 + 4 (Int, ID) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Int, Mech1), allowing values between 11 and 18.

And yet, as I pointed out, there is a hit of 10. This would be impossible if there were a hidden +4 damage. Therefore, there is none. Either ID or Mech1 is not being applied.


The third attack in the second SS shows the following: You hit for 13 after 2 where blocked by DR, i.e. a total damage of 15. This would not be possible via 1d8 + 6 damage, provided it is not a critical hit.

Point Blank Shot makes it possible. But it's irrelevant. The issue was settled by the hit of 10.


A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition

Even if scrolls are readily available, they couldn't be applied to a crossbow. You can't hold both at the same time, and the spell is self-only.

karl_k0ch
08-18-2011, 09:52 AM
And yet, as I pointed out, there is a hit of 10. This would be impossible if there were a hidden +4 damage. Therefore, there is none. Either ID or Mech1 is not being applied.

I forgot PBS. I rest my case.

NeutronStar
08-18-2011, 09:59 AM
No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

I noticed you didn't actually address this, so I'll re-point it out for you:



There are some differences between the two. Artificers can replace the to-hit or damage stat on a weapon. Mechanics get to add their Intelligence to damage with crossbows. These are different enough that they stack.

Cyr
08-18-2011, 10:12 AM
um what?

You were expecting this combo to double your int mod and add it to damage?

lol really? .. Ever heard of CRAZY OVERPOWERED?. And yea Eladrin already addresed this.

I mean any kind of damage mod on a crossbow at all is a rather powerful ability.

Should still be a good build for insightful STRIKES + mechanic 1.. Give you int to damage and attack.

Yes he did address it. He said that they should stack.

Mjesko
08-18-2011, 10:25 AM
It's not that unbalanced as it would be for a melee weapon which gets 2*Str-Mod as a damage mod, actually.

As a start, note that it's considered to be perfectly balanced if a Weapon gets 1.5*Mod as a damage bonus, namely all Two-handed weapons.

The main reason is the following: Applying ID to your Crossbow means that you cannot apply IS, which brings Crossbows to the situation to have different stats for attack and damage, similarly to Finessed Weapons. So even if the weapon gets a damage bonus of 2*Intmod, you will still need a second Stat for the hits to land.

A secondary reason is the following: As long there are no ID scrolls in vendors or clickies, this special bonus is only available with a specific class split or group composition. If self-sustained, it needs some Rogue and Artificer Levels which are too many to get the essential ranged feats PS and IPS via 11 Ranger levels for free. So a essential investment in Dex is required to get those, which emphasises the previously discussed MAD problem.

Exactly and melee weapons have Power Attack, which increases the damage by at least 5 points, and to get +Int x 2 damage you need 6 Rogue levels.

Morosy
08-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Yeah, that Eladrin quote...I mean, without that comment I would have read them to act separately...

Since Repeaters don't have a damage stat, you need to be Mechanic I to add Int to it. Ok, no problem. So that means Insightful Damage is useful for replacing the Damage stat on melee weapons. That's cool, that's nice, I'll use it on my Artificer to Bludgeon/Slash things sometimes, but in no way implies any sort of stacking.

By adding that little 'These are different enough that they stack' it suddenly implies that Insightful Damage SHOULD work with crossbows, and SHOULD stack with Mechanic I.

So, some WAI clarification would be nice.

Even if they DO stack, by using Insightful Damage you're not using Deadly Weapons or whatever else is out there. Last I read that spell is intended to double your base damage dice I think...so a 2d8 Repeater is 4d8...an average of +9 damage? 3d8 Great Crossbow is 6d8, so +13.5 there. Using Insightful Damage instead would be a little more than that (less in the case of Great Crossbow obviously), but not some earth-shattering difference.

Heaven forbid the non Dwarf-Barbarians get something-something.

Hmmm? Insightful Damage and Insightful Strikes are separate from the weapon buff line.

You get to choose either Insightful Damage or Strikes, then you get to choose your other weapon buff (Elemental Weapon, Enhance Weapon, etc.)

Deathdefy
08-18-2011, 10:44 AM
I also thought they would stack, and doubt their failure to is WAI given Eladrin's quote.

Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.

rimble
08-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Hmmm? Insightful Damage and Insightful Strikes are separate from the weapon buff line.

You get to choose either Insightful Damage or Strikes, then you get to choose your other weapon buff (Elemental Weapon, Enhance Weapon, etc.)

This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

rimble
08-18-2011, 10:47 AM
Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.

That also doesn't get 6th level spells...doesn't get a Tier III PrE...etc, etc...it's not like it's free...

Morosy
08-18-2011, 10:47 AM
This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

Can see here http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3352/screenshot00020l.jpg

Also helps to read description :) which I've got here http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2610/screenshot00012h.jpg

rimble
08-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

No, I don't have enough play time to 'waste' (I hope you know what I mean by that, don't mean to sound negative) it on Lamannia. I appreciate you taking the time to verify.

Morosy
08-18-2011, 11:03 AM
Went ahead and put the shots in post above. Shows that I'm getting 14 damage, first of all, which shouldn't be possible with that particular gear setup (lol I only bothered to equip a voice of the master the whole time I've been levelling) without Insightful Damage.

Also shows getting shock damage on that particular mob, which wouldn't be possible on my +2 ghost touch of lesser undead bane without Elemental Weapons.

Plus description saying it will dispel Strikes but works with other item enchantments :D I didn't know myself until I logged in yesterday, but it was a nice thing to see.

rimble
08-18-2011, 11:09 AM
Have you not even been in game O.o ?

Will go back on quickly and see what I can do.

Can see here http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3352/screenshot00020l.jpg

Also helps to read description :) which I've got here http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2610/screenshot00012h.jpg

I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

Cyr
08-18-2011, 11:12 AM
I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

Maybe, but to be fair it would require splashing six levels which is a big loss on a class with so much based upon it's pure class level.

Morosy
08-18-2011, 11:14 AM
I see, there's a distinction between Personal and General Augmentations. I didn't know that, and this description is different from what I've seen everywhere else. I appreciate the information, and this does change my opinion somewhat.

Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

This is what I really wanted to do :D but unfortunately I had to start with a pretty high dex (17 starting) to get feats for ranged anyway so I think I can keep Dex kinda high while still pumping Int for damage and be OK.

Chai
08-18-2011, 11:17 AM
I like how there is all this concern about crossbows being powerful now. Never thought Id see this on the DDO forums, LOL. :p

/waits for the nerf request threads "zomg ranged is too powerful!!"

Keep the popcorn and the picket sign crafting material on order fellas, this update has potential after all, heh.

Cyr
08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
This is what I really wanted to do :D but unfortunately I had to start with a pretty high dex (17 starting) to get feats for ranged anyway so I think I can keep Dex kinda high while still pumping Int for damage and be OK.

Yeah I am trying to do the numbers here assuming that mech + insightful will not work...

dice average source
2d8 9 GS repeater base
2d8 9 PBS
2d8 9 Deadly Weapons
2d8 9 The high level rune arm from a xoriat pack presumably
7 7 enhancement bonus
12 12 Very achievable int bonus from insightful
2 2 Artificer Damage Enhancements
+GS effects

Per hit that would be 57 damage before crits and gs effects. Not too shabby for a pew pew class.

Please add corrections what not if you see mistakes which I am sure are plentiful.

kernal42
08-18-2011, 12:08 PM
I'm not sure how you want "Adds int to damage" to stack with "replaces damage stat with int."

kernal42
08-18-2011, 12:09 PM
Yeah I am trying to do the numbers here assuming that mech + insightful will not work...

dice average source
2d8 9 GS repeater base
2d8 9 PBS
2d8 9 Deadly Weapons
2d8 9 The high level rune arm from a xoriat pack presumably
7 7 enhancement bonus
12 12 Very achievable int bonus from insightful
2 2 Artificer Damage Enhancements
+GS effects

Per hit that would be 57 damage before crits and gs effects. Not too shabby for a pew pew class.

Please add corrections what not if you see mistakes which I am sure are plentiful.

Add in bonuses from a rune arm too.

-Kernal

Mjesko
08-18-2011, 12:17 PM
This is contradictory to everything else I've heard. Please cite your source.

You cast Insightful Strikes or Insightful Damage on yourself and Elemental Weapons, ... on your weapon.

rest
08-18-2011, 12:28 PM
I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

Funny. That's how I feel after reading anything you post.

kernal42
08-18-2011, 12:30 PM
You cast Insightful Strikes or Insightful Damage on yourself and Elemental Weapons, ... on your weapon.

Wrong.

Check the screenshot in the OP: Insightful Damage is a weapon buff, not a personal buff.

-Kernal

kernal42
08-18-2011, 12:33 PM
I also thought they would stack, and doubt their failure to is WAI given Eladrin's quote.

Very briefly on balance, given max STR goes to over 100 and max INT barely touches 50, a double INT MOD doesn't seem unreasonable.

This is a bad comparison: Max Str is from barbs who get most of their dps from absurdly high str, and most of that is unsustainable.

Since rogues get most (at least half) of their damage from other sources (ie sneak attack), the correct comparison is "How much str can a rogue get, and how much int can a rogue get?" The rogue can hit sustainably ~50 str or 40 int; these two are much closer than the 100/50 you refer to. Doubling int would provide far more damage than is currently available to rogues via str.

PS, Max Int is nearly 60.

Cheers,
Kernal

Hollowgolem
08-18-2011, 01:06 PM
No I didn't. and I think this thread is utterly absurd, I feel dumber for even reading and replying to it.. I'll be going now.

200% ability mod to damage.. lol you guys are funny.

As opposed to 150% ability mod to damage on a two-hander, and of an ability that's much easier to get really high (Strength) than Int, and with weapons that have better crit profiles (Falchions; Okay, great crossbows get that profile as well, but are also hella slow).

dkyle
08-18-2011, 01:09 PM
The rogue can hit sustainably ~50 str or 40 int; these two are much closer than the 100/50 you refer to. Doubling int would provide far more damage than is currently available to rogues via str.

If we assume (for the moment) that TWF attack rate and the xbow attack rate are the same, the TWF 50 STR gets 28 damage from STR, on average, for each attack (main hand + off hand proc), while the 40 INT gets 30 damage from INT per attack. But meanwhile, the TWF gets 180% the SA damage the xbow user gets.

Of course, that initial assumption is a big one. Right now, xbow speed on Lammania seems to be higher than melee speed. I suspect that will change. But, at least, that shows that the benefit a TWF gets from STR is similar to the benefit an xbow user would get from double INT bonus.

Deathdefy
08-18-2011, 01:22 PM
About the max STR vs max INT comparison:
I honestly wasn't thinking about specific builds when making the comparison; just saying in game-terms it wasn't immediately ludicrous to have a double INT mod to damage as it's very different to doubling a STR mod to damage.

I agree fleetingly buffed max-STR barbs are the ones with the STR stat, and fleetingly buffed PM wizards are the ones with the INT stat (which you are totally right on pushing 60. I think I've seen a non-completionist SS with fifty-something quite high in achievements.)

But, I also totally agree if we're giving more than a cursory glance it should consider actually affected builds.

The boost of 10 damage per hit from the:
2xINT mod for a 40 INT (+30 damage per hit) vs the
1xSTR mod from a 50 STR(+20damage per hit) is big, but still well within reasonable bounds to my mind.

Especially for the poor rogues come U11!

I was honestly thinking more of an 14 Arty/6Rogue Mech I thing, without the SA to really max out the damage, when in retrospect a near-pure Rogue is definitely the kind of build that would make the most of a double INT mod to damage mechanism.

EDIT: I'm an idiot; of course STR pulls much closer/surpasses overall damage due to more TWF hits since it's still a Range vs Melee comparison. ^^Dkyle. Killin' it.

rimble
08-18-2011, 01:54 PM
Int + Int + Deadly Weapons might be getting a bit up there...but maybe not, just theorycrafting still...

Whoops, you can't do this...14 Arti/6 Rogue doesn't get 6th level spells...

So now I'm back to they should stack...sure, some other Artificer might be able to Deadly Weapons you...but hey, that's what grouping is for...

And if they don't stack, well...I'm not feeling like Artificer is the repeater king anymore...I'd rather just go 2 levels for Insightful Strike and Rune Arms, 6 Rogue for Mechanic...then what? Kensai...? More Rogue?

Cyr
08-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Whoops, you can't do this...14 Arti/6 Rogue doesn't get 6th level spells...

So now I'm back to they should stack...sure, some other Artificer might be able to Deadly Weapons you...but hey, that's what grouping is for...

And if they don't stack, well...I'm not feeling like Artificer is the repeater king anymore...I'd rather just go 2 levels for Insightful Strike and Rune Arms, 6 Rogue for Mechanic...then what? Kensai...? More Rogue?

I think the artificer prestige makes it worthwhile to go six artificer in the build.

rimble
08-18-2011, 01:57 PM
I think the artificer prestige makes it worthwhile to go six artificer in the build.

Of course, you're right...well then, I've come right back around to my 6 / 6 / 6 build...how diabolical...Battle Engineer I / Mechanic I / Deepwood Sniper I...

Arti 7 has good Enhancements, and Arti 8 is another Feat...so maybe 8 / 6 / 6...but Rogue 7 is more Sneak Attack...so maybe 7 / 7 / 6...

To be determined...and reconsidered entirely as more PrEs emerge...

Chai
08-18-2011, 05:25 PM
Can you run deadly weapons and insightful damage at the same time? I thought there could only be one temp effect per weapon.

Insightful Damage

Enchants a crossbow or one handed melee weapon to permit the use of the equipper's intelligence modifier for damage rolls if it is higher then the standard ability for the weapon, if it is the only weapon (other then Rune Arm) equipped. An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Deadly Weapons

Your targets currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage). (A weapon that deals 1d6 per hit will deal 2d6 instead, while a weapon that deals 2d4 damage per hit will deal 4d4 damage instead. This effects base dice associated with a weapon any time they are rolled.) An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Sounds to me like the same item cant be running both.

rimble
08-18-2011, 05:40 PM
Can you run deadly weapons and insightful damage at the same time? I thought there could only be one temp effect per weapon.

Insightful Damage

Enchants a crossbow or one handed melee weapon to permit the use of the equipper's intelligence modifier for damage rolls if it is higher then the standard ability for the weapon, if it is the only weapon (other then Rune Arm) equipped. An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Deadly Weapons

Your targets currently equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage). (A weapon that deals 1d6 per hit will deal 2d6 instead, while a weapon that deals 2d4 damage per hit will deal 4d4 damage instead. This effects base dice associated with a weapon any time they are rolled.) An item can have only one temporary item enchantment at a time.

Sounds to me like the same item cant be running both.

The wording in game is different. Insightful Attack/Damage are exclusive, but one of them can be there with one other Infusion.

Hollowgolem
08-19-2011, 11:33 PM
About the max STR vs max INT comparison:
I honestly wasn't thinking about specific builds when making the comparison; just saying in game-terms it wasn't immediately ludicrous to have a double INT mod to damage as it's very different to doubling a STR mod to damage.

I agree fleetingly buffed max-STR barbs are the ones with the STR stat, and fleetingly buffed PM wizards are the ones with the INT stat (which you are totally right on pushing 60. I think I've seen a non-completionist SS with fifty-something quite high in achievements.)

But, I also totally agree if we're giving more than a cursory glance it should consider actually affected builds.

The boost of 10 damage per hit from the:
2xINT mod for a 40 INT (+30 damage per hit) vs the
1xSTR mod from a 50 STR(+20damage per hit) is big, but still well within reasonable bounds to my mind.

Especially for the poor rogues come U11!

I was honestly thinking more of an 14 Arty/6Rogue Mech I thing, without the SA to really max out the damage, when in retrospect a near-pure Rogue is definitely the kind of build that would make the most of a double INT mod to damage mechanism.

EDIT: I'm an idiot; of course STR pulls much closer/surpasses overall damage due to more TWF hits since it's still a Range vs Melee comparison. ^^Dkyle. Killin' it.

Str is 1.5x if you're two-weapon or Tempest III, and a little less if you just have the two-weapon-fighting feats (60% off-hand at .5 bonus is an extra .3, I believe, so 1.3x from Str bonus on, say, a TWF Kensai or Bard).

Oh, and if you're using a melee weapon, you get Power Attack, too, for an extra 10 damage baseline on a TempestIII, something like 14-18 extra on a barbarian, and 8 extra per attack on a vanilla TWF with the three feats.

And we're not even counting the glancing blows THF's get.