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Austinb1235
08-17-2011, 08:47 PM
I got a item from the best dev ever, kabold, and this item is unique.

It is an epic item, but also a shroud item!
Oh and he also leveled me to 20!

http://i52.tinypic.com/5d1cls.jpg

Blazer
08-17-2011, 08:51 PM
Hmm, this should be interesting.

Austinb1235
08-17-2011, 08:52 PM
If anyone else gets one tell me, i think i was the first one to get this

voxson5
08-17-2011, 08:53 PM
so you'r ethe one flaunting that around the marketplace huh :D

Gratz man!


Oh - did it help against the dragons?

sirgog
08-17-2011, 08:54 PM
Been in the game files for ages. Hopefully its use in an event means we may see eShroud live one day.

Lit 2 Khopesh + Silver DR crystal = good times.

Austinb1235
08-17-2011, 08:55 PM
so you'r ethe one flaunting that around the marketplace huh :D

Gratz man!


Oh - did it help against the dragons?

Not sure man its lagging too much, saw some 80s above a head would be great if that was base damage, but again, too laggy for me, i left

sirgog
08-17-2011, 09:18 PM
Oh and take note of the increased critical profile.

NaturalHazard
08-17-2011, 09:32 PM
Oh and take note of the increased critical profile.

holy ****!!!

would that mean a khopesh version would be x4? :eek::eek::eek:

Austinb1235
08-17-2011, 09:40 PM
holy ****!!!

would that mean a khopesh version would be x4? :eek::eek::eek:

Maybe even 15-20 X4 With even more base damage.

Goldeneye
08-17-2011, 09:52 PM
Ha Ha

Rumbaar
08-17-2011, 10:18 PM
Nice cropping :)

Interesting weapon.

dingal
08-17-2011, 10:20 PM
Been in the game files for ages. Hopefully its use in an event means we may see eShroud live one day.

Lit 2 Khopesh + Silver DR crystal = good times.

Lit 2 Khopesh + Any artificer = Epic Shroud = Good times?

jakeelala
08-17-2011, 11:11 PM
kind of BS that it's evil tainted.

sirgog
08-17-2011, 11:26 PM
kind of BS that it's evil tainted.

I'm assuming that can be cleansed. Probably by a 4% drop rate item in part 5 (that replaces the Splintered Horns you'd get in non-Epic runs)

jakeelala
08-18-2011, 12:02 AM
sure but why not standard taint of shav? and weapons were never tainted, only accessories

LordPiglet
08-18-2011, 12:48 AM
sure but why not standard taint of shav? and weapons were never tainted, only accessories

Technically, weapons are tainted, they're just able to feed. I suppose a guard item should also be able to feed though since it also deals damage and therefore feeds it's evil. Weapons probably don't carry the taint for ease of coding. At least that would be my understanding based on what little I know.

Hellllboy
08-18-2011, 06:26 AM
If anyone else gets one tell me, i think i was the first one to get this

Ya, he passed one to a Guildie and I while running a quest (I think we were in Butchers).

Did he give you the Rune Arm (Tira's Splendor) as well?

Eladrin
08-18-2011, 06:48 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

sirgog
08-18-2011, 06:50 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

Some of which I think many people would like to see polished and released... (cough, cough, epic Tor)

The time a guildy put up an LFM for 'Epic Tor, must have beta pass' on the live servers, he counted 60 or so 'how do I get the beta pass' messages before he pulled it down...


That's more interest than any other in-game prank I can think of...

Shade
08-18-2011, 07:39 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

Eladrin always shows up to crush our dreams.

We heard it the first 9 times.. Epic is dead and you have no plans of ever making it again. Dont have to keep telling us. Let us pretend in vain that theres still a chance..

Avidus
08-18-2011, 08:01 AM
Eladrin always shows up to crush our dreams.

We heard it the first 9 times.. Epic is dead and you have no plans of ever making it again. Dont have to keep telling us. Let us pretend in vain that theres still a chance..

I am actually hoping that they combine epics with the challenge system of crystal cove.

You select the epic checkbox then choose your CR setting from 21-30. The higher the difficulty the better the drop rates. This way less experienced players can get that epic taste and even build their gear (albeit much slower) and the more skilled, better geared, challenge seekers can choose CR 30 and really be tested, while being rewarded with more token fragments, scrolls and seal / shard drops.

Meh, I can dream can't I...?

Zion_Halcyon
08-18-2011, 08:16 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

Ok, no Epic Shroud.

How about a way to upgrade Greensteel items to Exquisite items in the Epic Altar without the need for an Epic Shroud?

Taimasan
08-18-2011, 08:21 AM
Moar handwrap love.

KookieKobold
08-18-2011, 08:35 AM
So yeah guys. I totally noobed it up here.

As Eladrin said, this item is not in development and is not going to be in game.

Oops!

grodon9999
08-18-2011, 08:40 AM
So yeah guys. I totally noobed it up here.

As Eladrin said, this item is not in development and is not going to be in game.

Oops!

Good, we have too much over-powered **** already.

And we're getting lightnings that break DR anyway :)

Shade
08-18-2011, 08:52 AM
Oops!

You act like it was a mistake.

I don't see why letting a player play with an otherwise unobtainable item during an event on a test server has to be a mistake.

It's like your saying:
Opps I let you have fun with a special event-only weapon!

Next time i'll keep it more boring!

In Asherons Call this was actaully a feature. There were special super overpowered event-only weapons given out on LIVE SERVERS. To balance it out, they had timers, after which the time was up they destroyed themselves. Was pretty cool.

jakeelala
08-18-2011, 08:54 AM
Eladrin always shows up to crush our dreams.

We heard it the first 9 times.. Epic is dead and you have no plans of ever making it again. Dont have to keep telling us. Let us pretend in vain that theres still a chance..

Epic is dead because it's stupid and failure. It's just another elite, but harder and less played by casual players. It's not special or epic. For the power gamers it's a joke. For new players it's totally inaccessible. That means it is literally the WORST use of resources the devs could possibly pursue.

Far better to design and implement a new system which is flexible and scaling over many difficulty levels to tailor itself to the varied levels of players and skill and gearing that exist.

A la Crystal Cove. Also, I think it's far more motivating to let players move a little bit toward their goal everytime they run a grindy quest instead of making it a TOTAL crapshoot like Epics are today. CC did a great job of this (if not too liberally) letting people slowly collect what they needed (consistently) each run. People overwhelmingly loved CC, and they love Ice Games (even though the rewards need an overhaul it's getting a little stale with just icy burst and sup. glac. 8).

I'm 93% (just a feeling) certain that's what we'll see instead of new epics. I don't play on Mournlands and I don't fanboi the devs so I'm totally speculating here.

Auran82
08-18-2011, 09:33 AM
Epic was:

Oh no, the game is dying, we're launching as free to play as a last ditch effort, but the game is probably going to close pretty soon, quick, make something to keep the long term players from getting bored at cap.

*6 months later*

Hmm.. the game is actually doing well again, now what do we do with that stopgap game mode we put in because we never realised the game would do so well.

The_Phenx
08-18-2011, 09:37 AM
And the long term players get bored and find something else to do ... :(

SableShadow
08-18-2011, 09:41 AM
So yeah guys. I totally noobed it up here.

As Eladrin said, this item is not in development and is not going to be in game.

Oops!

"See this? It's an epic greensteel repeating crossbow ... magnum. It shoots through Shrouds."

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZm2DbHPfRAevqsKjC4-r_Iywxax9sCnFWASDRjdOvGPGIfv8


now what do we do with that stopgap game mode we put in because we never realised the game would do so well.

Yeah, I hear you about greensteel, the shroud and the whole atari thi...oh, wait, you probably mean when they chucked favor into the game....oh, wait, you mean epics, nm.

They've chucked various grinds into the game at various times, epic is not especially noteworth.

HelvanderSeries6
08-18-2011, 09:46 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

Buzz kill :mad:

bradleyforrest
08-18-2011, 10:57 AM
This was part of experimental stuff from when we were first designing epic mode that's not in actual development.

A big boo on this one. Why not give us more epics? Give us something to do at end game other than TR.

Give us epic Shroud. Give us epic Tor. Give us epic Korthos. Just give us more epics.

MadFloyd
08-18-2011, 11:35 AM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

r3dl4nce
08-18-2011, 11:37 AM
I remember about a "Epic reboot" ....

Scraap
08-18-2011, 11:38 AM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Woot Epic Korthos!

/reading between the atoms.

TheDjinnFor
08-18-2011, 11:42 AM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Epic isn't dead, it's just on hold until you guys learn what you did right and how to continue doing it, and learn what you did wrong and how to avoid it in the future, right?

bhgiant
08-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Woot Epic Korthos!

/reading between the atoms.

Epic Korthos would be epic :cool:

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 11:59 AM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Woot! Level cap increased to 30 and epics done the way they are, or similar, in PnP? :D

Shade
08-18-2011, 12:01 PM
Epic was:

Oh no, the game is dying, we're launching as free to play as a last ditch effort, but the game is probably going to close pretty soon, quick, make something to keep the long term players from getting bored at cap.
.

Your theory might work..

Except for the fact epic was release long after the game went F2P and turbine sent out there "Turbine proves F2P can work and made millions" press release.

more then 2 months later to be exact. (F2P = mod9, epic = u1)

All we need to know is 3 things:

The game wasn't dying.
Every bit of the game doesn't need to be every one.
Madfloyd is awesome.

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 12:03 PM
Hmm, which just opens up a new wilderness area, full of nothing but wild animals, with a single, dark cave at one corner, that most animals stay away from.

When exploring said cave, one hears a quite deep snoring, sneaking into the cave you see a lone, rather huge, sleeping figure, a figure that most would recognize they do not want to awaken!


http://www.dotd.com/mm/tarasque.gif

Now that's an EPIC monster!

bradleyforrest
08-18-2011, 12:04 PM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

We're coming up on a year since the last epic quest was added to the game, that being Chronoscope and epic mode for Devil's Assault. Yes, items are being revisited, but we still haven't had any new epic content in 11 months.

We are hungry for more. There isn't enough of it. Please give us something soon.

Indoran
08-18-2011, 12:06 PM
You act like it was a mistake.

I don't see why letting a player play with an otherwise unobtainable item during an event on a test server has to be a mistake.

It's like your saying:
Opps I let you have fun with a special event-only weapon!

Next time i'll keep it more boring!

In Asherons Call this was actaully a feature. There were special super overpowered event-only weapons given out on LIVE SERVERS. To balance it out, they had timers, after which the time was up they destroyed themselves. Was pretty cool.

Let's give shade a group hug! :D


The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Great! :D

Vordax
08-18-2011, 12:18 PM
Your theory might work..

Except for the fact epic was release long after the game went F2P and turbine sent out there "Turbine proves F2P can work and made millions" press release.

more then 2 months later to be exact. (F2P = mod9, epic = u1)

All we need to know is 3 things:

The game wasn't dying.
Every bit of the game doesn't need to be every one.
Madfloyd is awesome.


There has to be at least a 6 month if not longer lead time from planning to release. They didn't plan/design/code/test epic in a 2 month period of time, there were doing work on this well before mod 9.

Vordax

suszterpatt
08-18-2011, 12:25 PM
Epic Korthos would be epic :cool:
Redundant statement is redundant.

Darkrok
08-18-2011, 12:29 PM
Hmm, which just opens up a new wilderness area, full of nothing but wild animals, with a single, dark cave at one corner, that most animals stay away from.

When exploring said cave, one hears a quite deep snoring, sneaking into the cave you see a lone, rather huge, sleeping figure, a figure that most would recognize they do not want to awaken!


http://www.dotd.com/mm/tarasque.gif

Now that's an EPIC monster!

You know what though. Unless they scale the Tarasque's stats up to DDO standards he'd be weaker than a level 12 dex/wis monk with greensteel accessories. :)

Well, other than the wish to kill it part.

Gratch
08-18-2011, 12:34 PM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Woot. Though I see what everyone is saying here. Capped players want a reason to play as well as stuff to get - but not necessarily no progress runs. So I propose for U13 (Turbine, taking back the number 13!) you add:

Quest Selectable Level 21-30 for all current epics as well as one older area epic'ed. Some say Ghold, some think Titan needs a redo more than any other raid. Higher levels produce greater drops of seals/shards/scrolls.
Add character levels 21-23 (with future allowance for up to 30) as EPIC character levels. Given the systems nightmare of adding specific class levels as well as retooling capstones and multiclassing limits and TR'ing Above 20...instead add in class-homogenous EPIC levels that require XP and maybe tokens, give AP's and feats every 3 levels. Add in Epic enhancements. Possibly only apply these enhancements when in epic quests so as not to trivialize non-epic. Put a lot more thought into this than I just did...but still save some system's dev time for class PRE's.


Done... make it so.

MadFloyd
08-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Woot. Though I see what everyone is saying here. Capped players want a reason to play as well as stuff to get - but not necessarily no progress runs. So I propose for U13 (Turbine, taking back the number 13!) you add:

Quest Selectable Level 21-30 for all current epics as well as one older area epic'ed. Some say Ghold, some think Titan needs a redo more than any other raid. Higher levels produce greater drops of seals/shards/scrolls.
Add character levels 21-23 (with future allowance for up to 30) as EPIC character levels. Given the systems nightmare of adding specific class levels as well as retooling capstones and multiclassing limits and TR'ing Above 20...instead add in class-homogenous EPIC levels that require XP and maybe tokens, give AP's and feats every 3 levels. Add in Epic enhancements. Possibly only apply these enhancements when in epic quests so as not to trivialize non-epic. Put a lot more thought into this than I just did...but still save some system's dev time for class PRE's.


Done... make it so.

We'll get right on that! :cool:

Shade
08-18-2011, 12:48 PM
There has to be at least a 6 month if not longer lead time from planning to release. They didn't plan/design/code/test epic in a 2 month period of time, there were doing work on this well before mod 9.

Vordax

Not relevant to what you quoted.
Point was it wasn't a "rush it out cuz games about to die and this might stop it" Because the game wasn't dying.

Also heavily disagree on your 6month guess. Original epic release desert stuff was pretty big, but I just don't believe they can take such a long time to do 1 pack.
And imo you can cut "test" out of that, as one of the few to play the original lamannia epics, it was pretty clear there was no testing done. Tons of things were heavily broken, and they went live just as broken.

Though that was one of things i enjoyed about it, how brokenly-difficult it was. Testings for us suckers on lamannia anyways.

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 12:49 PM
You know what though. Unless they scale the Tarasque's stats up to DDO standards he'd be weaker than a level 12 dex/wis monk with greensteel accessories. :)

Well, other than the wish to kill it part.


I have faith. :)

suszterpatt
08-18-2011, 12:51 PM
You know what though. Unless they scale the Tarasque's stats up to DDO standards he'd be weaker than a level 12 dex/wis monk with greensteel accessories. :)

Well, other than the wish to kill it part.How many bytes does DDO use to store monster HP? We might be looking at an overflow here...

Shade
08-18-2011, 12:55 PM
We'll get right on that! :cool:

'That' being U13 is disapointing.

U11 = first new (proper high lvl) raid in 2 years.

2 years and end game players are still ignored if it has no epic...

Because even if its super hard on elite.. Without an additional mechanic to challenge us/slow us down in getting the loot, and upgrading the loot after, it just lacks replay value without epic crafting.

You can ofcourse do something differnet like ToD crafting to extend the replay value.. But imo it just isn't enough, and epic would of been a much better solution, and ones players who enjoy have been patiently waiting for.

But even that ... I mean 1 lucky elite run, you crush the raid you get the item your after.. You grind out some normals to get the crafting bits to upgrade it.. Then in less then a day (run your alts) its... Ok that was fun - see you in 2 years for the next one..

Just lacks value and replayability that epic gave us. And with such a wait time between new raids.. It seems like you really should of went all out. (and by you, i mean Fernando/Eladrin calling the shots.. Not you madfloyd... I believe you did want it to make it happen, but your just 1 man.)

Schmoe
08-18-2011, 12:57 PM
We'll get right on that! :cool:

Hmmm. You know, the State of the Game Address did say that content would be released in progressively higher levels. The content in U11 is level 20, so that means U13 should be ... ;)

smatt
08-18-2011, 12:58 PM
Woot. Though I see what everyone is saying here. Capped players want a reason to play as well as stuff to get - but not necessarily no progress runs. So I propose for U13 (Turbine, taking back the number 13!) you add:

Quest Selectable Level 21-30 for all current epics as well as one older area epic'ed. Some say Ghold, some think Titan needs a redo more than any other raid. Higher levels produce greater drops of seals/shards/scrolls.
Add character levels 21-23 (with future allowance for up to 30) as EPIC character levels. Given the systems nightmare of adding specific class levels as well as retooling capstones and multiclassing limits and TR'ing Above 20...instead add in class-homogenous EPIC levels that require XP and maybe tokens, give AP's and feats every 3 levels. Add in Epic enhancements. Possibly only apply these enhancements when in epic quests so as not to trivialize non-epic. Put a lot more thought into this than I just did...but still save some system's dev time for class PRE's.


Done... make it so.

Check's in the mail right? :D

...

I like it though :)

grodon9999
08-18-2011, 01:10 PM
'That' being U13 is disapointing.

U11 = first new (proper high lvl) raid in 2 years.

2 years and end game players are still ignored if it has no epic...

Because even if its super hard on elite.. Without an additional mechanic to challenge us/slow us down in getting the loot, and upgrading the loot after, it just lacks replay value without epic crafting.

You can ofcourse do something differnet like ToD crafting to extend the replay value.. But imo it just isn't enough, and epic would of been a much better solution, and ones players who enjoy have been patiently waiting for.

But even that ... I mean 1 lucky elite run, you crush the raid you get the item your after.. You grind out some normals to get the crafting bits to upgrade it.. Then in less then a day (run your alts) its... Ok that was fun - see you in 2 years for the next one..

Just lacks value and replayability that epic gave us. And with such a wait time between new raids.. It seems like you really should of went all out. (and by you, i mean Fernando/Eladrin calling the shots.. Not you madfloyd... I believe you did want it to make it happen, but your just 1 man.)


oh that's a bunch of horsesh1t. "Epics," particularly the desert, is and absurdly stupid grind designed to keep people running in their hamster wheels long enough for Turbine to figure out what it wants for an end game. You shouldn't literally have to run a raid/quest-chain a 100 times to get a pieces of gear you are looking for. The scroll mechanic simply exists as a means for caster-farmers to butt-rape people with absurd prices and actually discourages group play.

Turbine can churn out content (good content for that matter) at a decent clip so the need to keep us grinding just isn't there, especially since so many people are premium now. You grinding content a zillion times makes Turbine no money, you buying the next pack because it has new shiny baubles does.

I look forward to some newer and harder content that don't have the game mechanics that make old epics so stupid. One size does not fit all, make level 21-25 content with N/H/E settings for all to enjoy. have us do something . .. I don't know . . . EPIC instead of fighting 60 AC ogres in loin clothes with more to-hit than a price of hell and 5000 HP.

The Lord of Blades invading Stormreach is pretty friggin epic, counter-attack the devils who invaded our world is pretty epic. helping some dude get his axes back is a job for level 8s, not Superman.

suszterpatt
08-18-2011, 01:13 PM
But, but... those ogres are very strong! :(

grodon9999
08-18-2011, 01:15 PM
But, but... those ogres are very strong! :(

The equating "absurdly stupid grind" with "replay value" made me snap.

Solmage
08-18-2011, 02:58 PM
The rumors of the demise of Epic are greatly exaggerated. :D

Thank you, a lot of us do love our epics. Any word on the desert item drop mechanic revamp, or on quest end-rewards being affected by what difficulty the quest was run in, or on 20th run epic rewards?

Cetus
08-18-2011, 03:01 PM
We'll get right on that! :cool:

With sarcasm aside, I sure wish we knew what it is you're getting on with regard to furthering character progression.

jillie
08-18-2011, 04:34 PM
We'll get right on that! :cool:

Promises, promises. But can we at least really hope?

eGiantHold would ROCK!

Ziindarax
08-18-2011, 04:46 PM
Hmm, which just opens up a new wilderness area, full of nothing but wild animals, with a single, dark cave at one corner, that most animals stay away from.

When exploring said cave, one hears a quite deep snoring, sneaking into the cave you see a lone, rather huge, sleeping figure, a figure that most would recognize they do not want to awaken!


http://www.dotd.com/mm/tarasque.gif

Now that's an EPIC monster!

A magically altered Deathclaw?

Auran82
08-18-2011, 04:59 PM
Your theory might work..

Except for the fact epic was release long after the game went F2P and turbine sent out there "Turbine proves F2P can work and made millions" press release.

more then 2 months later to be exact. (F2P = mod9, epic = u1)

All we need to know is 3 things:

The game wasn't dying.
Every bit of the game doesn't need to be every one.
Madfloyd is awesome.


Fair point, for some reason I forgot that epic came out just after release of EU.

In that case, I still think they never though the game would take off as it did when it went free to play, and I also think they never thought that so many of the 'Vets' from before EU would actually stick around.

So Epic was put in as a stopgap until they worked out what they wanted for endgame and was probably never meant to be the be all and end all of end game (just look at the initial implementation, and no offence to whoever made the first lot of epic items, but alot of them were absolutely terrible and might as well have been invented with a dartboard, I'm pretty sure I was the first person to make an epic staff of arcane power, what a dissapointment that was)

The game has significantly improved since EU which you can see in the quality of quests lately, I hope they have lots of plans for 'Epic' which they will share with us at some point.

Personally I think we might end up seeing something like the cove challenge level system, just with a better implementation and scaling.

MadFloyd
08-18-2011, 05:02 PM
With sarcasm aside, I sure wish we knew what it is you're getting on with regard to furthering character progression.

At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

SableShadow
08-18-2011, 05:04 PM
At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

Well...

...ok...

... but say "vast and mysterious" at your own peril, and at the peril of many and various small, cute, furry animals I will be driving by on my way home ...

MadFloyd
08-18-2011, 05:10 PM
Personally I think we might end up seeing something like the cove challenge level system, just with a better implementation and scaling.

If you're referring to 'dial in your preferred challenge level' I think we might end up with this too, but we don't have it all sorted out yet.

Auran82
08-18-2011, 05:22 PM
If you're referring to 'dial in your preferred challenge level' I think we might end up with this too, but we don't have it all sorted out yet.

One of the main issues I have with how Epic is handled (other than the sometimes crazy drop rates) is the fact it is one difficulty, where the rest of the game is spread over 3 (well, 4 now) difficulties.

Only think I beg though, please have the scaling work a little better than the crystal cove challenge system :D

Cetus
08-18-2011, 05:23 PM
At the risk of sounding completely lame, one day you will find out.

Well, I appreciate the response regardless =D

P.S.- I sent in a small request in the form of a PM. please respond as I won't be able to play for the next week.

MadFloyd
08-18-2011, 05:37 PM
One of the main issues I have with how Epic is handled (other than the sometimes crazy drop rates) is the fact it is one difficulty, where the rest of the game is spread over 3 (well, 4 now) difficulties.

Only think I beg though, please have the scaling work a little better than the crystal cove challenge system :D

I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

sirgog
08-18-2011, 05:47 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

IMO the main issues:

1 - Scroll/Shard/Seal system makes sure that there's no rewards for the first ~10 runs of most Epics - contrast to ToD where you'll get a ring that's an upgrade likely within 5 runs (then your perfect ring hundreds of runs later...)
2 - Most of the hardest encounters have low/no loot rewards (here's looking at you, Spies in the House and Fathom/Claw optionals)
3 - The lack of anything that's so hard, noone beats it on release day. Didn't it take 2-3 months for anyone to beat Elite VON6?

Here's some suggestions I wrote up about a year ago (pre U9) - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=272917 - the main change I'd make to them now is to give mobs a blanket immunity to area of effect death spells (while letting the single-target ones continue working).


I for one would not still be playing if we'd not had Epic difficulty. And I know a fair number of guildies have stopped playing in the long endgame drought since Chronoscope came out, because nothing since has been both challenging and rewarding enough to warrant multiple runs.

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 06:15 PM
A magically altered Deathclaw?

Heh, never played Fallout, but it certainly looks close.

The beastie is called a Tarrasque in D&D.

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 06:21 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I played at level 8 alot, mainly because my main was 8th at the time, and I don't know if it was due to group dynamics or what, but I could never get in a group for a total completion, would always complete it, but not get all the gems, though would get close.

Got even closer on 7th the few times I tried with a group...9 on the other hand, wow that was a rough jump.

But yeah, if the level cap is going to be raised, then this would be the best route to go instead of picking - Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic, Very Epic, So Epic It Hurts, etc.

I will certainly give better feedback once the Cove comes back and will pay more attention to the scaling, but yeah, it certainly seemed off.

Kielbasa
08-18-2011, 06:23 PM
Well I for one really loved the way crystal cove works. I'm talking about loot rewards here. You have a base item that isn't too ridiculous to get and then multiple item tiers/crafting slots which are exponentially more difficult to craft. Can something like this be done for epic loot? A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

sirgog
08-18-2011, 06:31 PM
Well I for one really loved the way crystal cove works. I'm talking about loot rewards here. You have a base item that isn't too ridiculous to get and then multiple item tiers/crafting slots which are exponentially more difficult to craft. Can something like this be done for epic loot? A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

NytCrawlr
08-18-2011, 06:36 PM
A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Yep!

I think this is perfect. I wanted Cannith Crafting to be like this.

Kielbasa
08-18-2011, 06:58 PM
Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

Yeah I can see that working. The casual player can go for the lesser effects and the hardcore players can go for the greater ones. And eventually using the lesser effects the casual player might just get some of the greater effects/bonuses as well.

Oh and some people really enjoy herding mindless kobolds. They are just so darned cute when they see a crystal or run for their lives from danger.

oradafu
08-18-2011, 07:39 PM
Something related to the Cove system could work well too, although I hate the Cove's approach of 'run an easy quest once to get base item, run the same easy quest a dozen times to get the real version of it'. Running Cove 25 at level 20 was just mindnumbingly boring - if you don't wipe in a quest when you are all drunk, there's something wrong. (Tested).

I'd rather something like turn in 5 Epic Tokens for a 'blank' Epic weapon (+6, 4d6, 19-20/x2 Greatsword, Red Slot). You then chase specific improvements to that item - the more impressive the upgrade, the harder the quests you need to run.

Then if you want to add Epic Flaming Burst (Hit: 4d6 fire damage Crit: 4d10 fire damage) you add 10 BtA tokens from the Epic Demon of the Frenzied Blood. If you'd prefer to add Epic Undead Bane, you need 10 BtA tokens from Epic Raiyum.

But if those two encounters are too difficult for you to complete, you could instead add a less powerful effect - say "Augmented Base Damage - Two Step Increase" by running eVON1 ten times. Or Incineration by killing Garos ten times.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

The ToD rings should have been something similar. It should have been a base Ring that either dropped in chest or purchased with a certain number of trophies. The Base Ring would be taken to an Altar so the player could pick which +6 Stat and Prestige Class enhancement they wanted on the ring. Then the player could add the Incredible Potential to the ring.

This wouldn't have made the extremely lame rings any better (that's a different problem all together), but this would have prevented alot of drama over the two or three rings everyone wants.

rendet
08-18-2011, 07:40 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

At the very least have varying epic difficulties that will increase the drop rates overall. So if you do the hardest possible epic the drop rates are much more generous than if you do the base epic. And by difficult I mean increase mob SR, saves, AC, damage, hp and resistances to elements (no blanket immunities). Blanket immunities only unfairly hamper build creativity that players have.

CR 25-30 dungeons would be nice with a drop rate increase of 5% per tier. Even 31-35 CR's that are near impossible.

Auran82
08-18-2011, 08:17 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I would like to see epic items go somewhat toward how it was done in crystal cove, base item relatively easy to acquire, and be able to upgrade that item through doing various tasks. Like Sirgog said, whether it be through tokens, or maybe completing certain objectives or difficult optionals. I must emphasize, I don't want it exactly like CC, where you can repeat the same easy quest over and over to get your uber item, it should be something you have to work for, but you should be able to get *something* relatively quickly and be able to see yourself progressing toward a goal.

IMO there is too much emphasis on completing epic quests the easiest/quickest way possible and ignoring most optionals (and even quests if there are easier quests with same/better rewards) Having a couple of different difficulties within the epic option would be nice, so it could cover from the new level 20, to the Shades and Sirgogs with rewards scaling as appropriate.

In the quests themselves, I would like to see less use of blanket immunities, and (if possible) more use of AI and enemy casted spells. If possible, some randomness in encounter makeup and even punish the group that just charges in headfirst without considering what they are up against. Give some cleric mobs mass deathward, but on a cooldown, start them spread out so they can't necessarily hit everyone at once. Give other clerics single target deathward with a lower cooldown. Some mobs might wear deathblock items, but not everyone. Casters/clerics/ranger types etc might cast resists when threatened, have enemy scouts run away to warn others (I guess like DA, so other groups are aware that they may be under attack)

Personally I would love to see encounters that are more like:

Scout checks to see whats up ahead. Enemy cleric, 2 casters, 2 barbarians. His high spot lets him see a rogue sneaking around the perimeter. Rogue sneaks in and positions himself behind the cleic, rest of party attacks from the front, wizard FoDs one of the casters successfully, barbarian jumps over to stun the other while the rogue assasinates the cleric. Party then cleans up the rest of the encounter being aware of the hiding enemy rogue as their scout warned them.

I know its probably not possible/feasible in this environment, but I would like to see Epic AI become smarter, not just more hp/damage/ac/etc etc. More strategy, less dogpile on enemies one at a time.

Auran82
08-18-2011, 08:21 PM
The ToD rings should have been something similar. It should have been a base Ring that either dropped in chest or purchased with a certain number of trophies. The Base Ring would be taken to an Altar so the player could pick which +6 Stat and Prestige Class enhancement they wanted on the ring. Then the player could add the Incredible Potential to the ring.

This wouldn't have made the extremely lame rings any better (that's a different problem all together), but this would have prevented alot of drama over the two or three rings everyone wants.

Regarding ToD rings, I would like to get clarification on whether the ravager ring was meant to be an applied dot, where subsequent hits reset the timer, instead of resetting the first damage application (making it esentially 2d6 damage per attack) or if it is WAI.

Secondly, I would like to see the +2 damage and +2 attack bonuses that the shintao set has available somewhere else (doesn't need to be together on the one item) or have the +2 damage not stack with the epic claw set (though I will probably make people upset with that suggestion, keep in mind I have 3 characters with the shintao set, only one is a monk)

sirgog
08-18-2011, 08:54 PM
I know its probably not possible/feasible in this environment, but I would like to see Epic AI become smarter, not just more hp/damage/ac/etc etc. More strategy, less dogpile on enemies one at a time.

Honestly, just increased enemy movement speed would massively improve their effective AI.

At present we see this:

'Ooh look, the Wizard I'm aggroed on is running that way until his/her/its Wail cooldown expires, I better walk toward them'
followed by 'Ah gee, they're still ahead of me by the same distance, better keep walking'
and then '(Combat:) You attempt to save against Myrmidral's Wail of the Banshee. You roll a 16(+25) - save failure'.

With faster mob movement speeds, we'd see more of 'run to catch up, swing, run to catch up, swing'.

Karbalis
08-18-2011, 11:07 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good constructive feedback can only help.

Oh lord. Ok everyone, remember this post 50 pages from now....he ASKED for this. :D


A base level 20 item that is an improvement for most people just starting epics and then tiered item bonuses/tiered crafting slots that let you tailor that item towards your specific character such as was on the pirate hats. I think this would make more epic loot viable rather than just trash because there would be more customization available. A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll. It also would put less pressure on Genasi to individually tweak every epic item when people are unhappy with them. The player can tweak their own gear to fit their needs.

Yes ^^ this. Possibly make it spread across more than one epic, or across more than one level range. For some reason to me it's more satisfying to see a item I already have be able to be improved and customized than simply getting a totally new version of something that is set in stone, even if it does have one or two slots with a few things that can be done extra to it.


Edit - oh and for clarity, one upgrade per item.

No, just.....no. Maybe one upgrade per item if it's a wearable item, but DEFINITELY not on weapons. You would need at least 2 upgrades to a simple base damage item for it to feel worthwhile and useable end game otherwise how would it possibly be any better than GS items?

KillEveryone
08-18-2011, 11:35 PM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I dislike blanket immunities. It stifle characters into either a mass hold monkey or a DC death. The rest of the schools don't get much use...conjuration for web but that is only one spell.

I don't mind seeing deathward casted because I have a chance at killing the divine before it casts it. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I may not.

I'd rather see critters buffed with FoM and Deathward and other stuff.

I'd also like to see those spells be dispellable by the players. As it is, dispel, greater dispel, and disjunction are worthless at the level you get them. Nothing really buffs but even when they do, their caster level is so much higher that we have no chance at landing it.

I'd like to see FoM added in so that wizards are not mass hold monkeys. This will add in some tactics.

Melee should also be able to land some of that tactical stuff and not rely on the arcane types tossing mass hold.

<<<<<<<Mass hold still trivializes content just as much as any mass death spell.>>>>>>>>

Weapons like curse spewers should have a better chance at landing in epics. They have such a low DC that there really isn't much point in having one. Melee types want the arcane to CC well and it would be good if the melee types also helped in that regard by lowering saves or spell resistance.

grodon9999
08-18-2011, 11:40 PM
If you're referring to 'dial in your preferred challenge level' I think we might end up with this too, but we don't have it all sorted out yet.

Just no blanket immunities please, especially not the current one to AC.

Darsith
08-18-2011, 11:53 PM
I hate to be the buzz kill, but no. I don't want epic shroud, I don't want any new eye balls bleeding powerful weapons. This will only allow the haves to get even more powerful. Then they can whine and complain until the game is ramped up to their level again.

I liked the idea of Cannith crafting, now I wish they would remove it from the game as they assume that every player is at level 150 the day after a crafting level is released. Some people are casual players that can't afford to spend millions of plat and hours and hours of time each and every day in there leveling up crafting.

to add some constructive feedback, leave the epics alone. But make a new difficulty, call it e-peen. All mobs will have DR 100/- with the final boss having DR 500/-. They will all have SR 9000+ and plaht device* for good measure (this will ensure the casters learn their place, after all that is what the majority of the forums want). This new difficulty provides nothing new except the satisfaction of overcoming a difficult quest. No new weapons, no new armor, no tokens or fragments. Just a good impossible to beat quest/raid. If there absolutely has to be something awarded, then have it recorded in the favor log so people can SS if they managed a completion.

*plaht device is Mentau's buff in litany that makes him immune to all level 1-9 spells.

tl:dr

please stop the power creep

Solmage
08-19-2011, 12:40 AM
I hate to be the buzz kill, but no. I don't want epic shroud, I don't want any new eye balls bleeding powerful weapons. This will only allow the haves to get even more powerful. Then they can whine and complain until the game is ramped up to their level again.

Hilarious. Ramped...up...again. Heh. Ok, how about if we instead "downgrade it" to what it used to be before these evil epic quests and their loot arrived?

Don't worry, it wasn't that bad, it would just mean
- on average quests would have twice the enemies in them,
- they wouldn't care if you were alone or in a full group
- if you died once inside a quest, but managed to complete, maybe you succeeded on a net exp gain if the quest yielded good exp, but twice was for sure a loss. Die a few more times and hey, welcome to earning negative levels.
- creatures would have much higher hitpoints, much higher saves.
- negative levels and debuffs like that were permanent. Heck blindness remained even if you died. Better invest in them pots.
- So. Much. Stuff. I'm still forgetting.

By all means, let's stop the power creep and go back to the good old days. :cool:

Grenada
08-19-2011, 12:55 AM
I got a item from the best dev ever, kabold, and this item is unique.

It is an epic item, but also a shroud item!
Oh and he also leveled me to 20!

http://i52.tinypic.com/5d1cls.jpg

just out of curiosity, could you upgrade the item too? (lit2 epic xbow ftw)

Caseas
08-19-2011, 04:36 AM
I hate to be the buzz kill, but no. I don't want epic shroud, I don't want any new eye balls bleeding powerful weapons. This will only allow the haves to get even more powerful. Then they can whine and complain until the game is ramped up to their level again.

I liked the idea of Cannith crafting, now I wish they would remove it from the game as they assume that every player is at level 150 the day after a crafting level is released. Some people are casual players that can't afford to spend millions of plat and hours and hours of time each and every day in there leveling up crafting.

to add some constructive feedback, leave the epics alone. But make a new difficulty, call it e-peen. All mobs will have DR 100/- with the final boss having DR 500/-. They will all have SR 9000+ and plaht device* for good measure (this will ensure the casters learn their place, after all that is what the majority of the forums want). This new difficulty provides nothing new except the satisfaction of overcoming a difficult quest. No new weapons, no new armor, no tokens or fragments. Just a good impossible to beat quest/raid. If there absolutely has to be something awarded, then have it recorded in the favor log so people can SS if they managed a completion.

*plaht device is Mentau's buff in litany that makes him immune to all level 1-9 spells.

tl:dr

please stop the power creep

I dichotomically disagree with this poster.

Give us an even tastier carrot hanging from your stick and we will keep paying you. Greensteel is nice, Epic Greensteel is better. I want better, as do most players.

Call it pride, call it hardcore, call it whatever; I am not satisfied with Madstone boots being so low level compared to cap and being 'the best melee dps boots.' Bring on Epic Gianthold. Bring on Epic Everything. Epic Waterworks, Epic Korthos Island, and new Epic Content that isn't out.

New shinies for new ways to pimp out our characters and pursue the goal of conquering everything -- new challenges to smash our faces in in the pursuit of the Perfect Quest.

r3dl4nce
08-19-2011, 04:44 AM
Playing a mmorpg pve based like DDO is having always new most powerful items to farm for and with them farm better old and new content.
DDO is already very casual-friendly (for example: 20th completion raid reward list)

I'd like to see a more action combat system, I'd like to see more difficult quest, not in boss having 10000000000000 hp but quest like Warforged Titan or Abott, in which the difficult part is not staying 5 minutes beating on the boss, but having good knowledge of the quest and having puzzle to solve, traps to avoid, and so on.
But this dream will never be true in DDO, and after 5 years I'm mostly bored by DDO combat, as soon as Vindcitus before and TERA after will be released in Europe, I'll give my definitive "bye bye" to ddo

Buggss
08-19-2011, 04:57 AM
......Epic is dead and you have no plans of ever making it again. Dont have to keep telling us. Let us pretend in vain that theres still a chance..

I'd prefer it was personally, even though I have several items myself it's far too demanding a system and it splits the gaming community immensely.

Of course these who've spent their time to acquire said epic ings ain't gonna agree but I've always believed DDO's absolutely best feature is the randomness of its loot. At least the new crafting is eventually accessible by ALL players, not just those who can find an accepting group for epic questing and raiding.

suszterpatt
08-19-2011, 05:01 AM
I dichotomically disagree with this poster.

Give us an even tastier carrot hanging from your stick and we will keep paying you. Greensteel is nice, Epic Greensteel is better. I want better, as do most players.

Call it pride, call it hardcore, call it whatever; I am not satisfied with Madstone boots being so low level compared to cap and being 'the best melee dps boots.' Bring on Epic Gianthold. Bring on Epic Everything. Epic Waterworks, Epic Korthos Island, and new Epic Content that isn't out.

New shinies for new ways to pimp out our characters and pursue the goal of conquering everything -- new challenges to smash our faces in in the pursuit of the Perfect Quest.The problem is that epic gear has such great benefits that a fully epic geared toon and a first lifer who just hit level 20 aren't really in the same level range. Epics might be ok for people with only greensteel/raid loot and maybe 1 epic item, but we need proper level 21+ content for people with all epic gear.

LordArkan
08-19-2011, 05:23 AM
Heh, never played Fallout, but it certainly looks close.

The beastie is called a Tarrasque in D&D.

The Deathclaws in the Fallout games were specifically modelled after the AD&D version of the Tarrasque. That thing actually looks intimidating, unlike the joke that was the later versions.

Buggss
08-19-2011, 05:44 AM
The Deathclaws in the Fallout games were specifically modelled after the AD&D version of the Tarrasque. That thing actually looks intimidating, unlike the joke that was the later versions.

Nah I much prefer the 3rd ed. version:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7587/tarrasque.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/tarrasque.gif/)

Look at all them little guys running off!!

:D

Schmoe
08-19-2011, 08:07 AM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I'm really not looking forward to a Crystal Cove-like approach for choosing the difficulty. It feels too generic to me, exposes too much of the underlying system mechanics, and leads to too much meta-gaming. I much prefer to have quests that are more hand-tailored to the range of difficulties they are supposed to be, I much prefer loot that is hand-tailored to be appropriate rewards for the given level of difficulty, and I much prefer character advancement along the lines of epic levels. I think it gives more variety to the game and creates a richer atmosphere.

I dread seeing something like the following:

"Run Genesis Point on challenge level 21, because that's the minimum level to get the gold shards you can turn in for a +8 fire damage crystal. You can get the extra +2 fire damage as an exceptional bonus from Stealer of Souls on challenge level 18 and upgrade your <Generic Weapon> to the maximum allowed of +10 fire damage."

In my opinion, Crystal Cove was fine as a one-off event designed to appeal to everyone, but as an over-arching game design? Yuck.

anto_capone
08-19-2011, 08:40 AM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.


Would like to see dynamic traps and enemy spawns, inherently making the quest different every time.

In crystal cove, the crystals didn't always spawn in the same spot, but the mobs seemed to spawn in the same place each time. Seems odd now that I think of it, the crystals in the cove were the only dynamic part of the game?

Maybe a supreme epic difficulty in which the quest is basically different each time.

First run attempt: zone in, buff. First room has 50 mobs raining meteor swarms and comet falls on all. Wipe. Recall, re-enter.
Second run attempt: zone in, buff. First room is empty, and has a chest! Empty chest springs epic trap, floor falls out and everyone falls in lava without a ladder out. Should have brought a rogue! Wipe. Recall, re-enter.
Third run attempt: zone in, buff. First room has a few mobs, and after a few minutes our heroes are victorious! But, whats in the second room...?

Right now, way it is, we all know whats in the second room dont we...? :P
Right now, it's 'the trap box is right here', and 'there are two casters in the next room, take them out first'.

I'd like a "super epic++ 'mind (insert four letter word)' difficulty", for when people are feeling adventurous.

Not sure how possible it is, but would be pretty cool. Hard as hell yea, with scaling rewards based on difficulty; but might be pretty fun.

Shade
08-19-2011, 09:02 AM
Crystal cove to me was an utter failure in design as far as allowing difficulty scaling goes. It never allowed any. It was casual/casual/casual or casual. It gave us level scaling.. Entirely without difficulty settings. Not cool to remove 1 system to add in another less interesting one..

The current normal, hard, elite setup works great. It just needs to be applied to epic, so epic can be fun for a much larger varieties of players.

Did a detailed post on this here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=307339

Grieve
08-19-2011, 09:11 AM
With respect to difficulty on quests in general, I have a philosophy on the difficulty of completing a task that I carry over from something one of my college professors told me after handing back one of the most difficult exams I'd ever taken. He told us that he made the exam (task) so difficult that it would ensure that at most 1 or 2 students who excelled on the material would even get close to a perfect grade. His reasoning for this was to gain a meaningful understanding of how much the class had actually understood.

My thought with the DDO questing is make it so that those most difficult quests/raids of end game content have such a curve that even the most skilled team of player would only have a 25% chance of success due to what would be required to complete the task (ie. Time, Resources, Gear, & sheer luck). Yes this would discourage some people because then they will not be able to do some of what they used to, but it gives incentive to learn and progress in their level of play.

What I am suggesting has been seen in numerous other games and no I am not suggesting you do this with the current system, but if you were to add layers of difficulty, go for broke and make it insane. Also, couple game examples that have implented this type of difficulty setting that I am referring to are Doom, Wolfenstein: 3D, MassEffect 2, and Guild Wars (not specifically with settings, but with the difficulty of certain areas within the game, Domain of Anguish specifically).

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 09:14 AM
With respect to difficulty on quests in general, I have a philosophy on the difficulty of completing a task that I carry over from something one of my college professors told me after handing back one of the most difficult exams I'd ever taken. He told us that he made the exam (task) so difficult that it would ensure that at most 1 or 2 students who excelled on the material would even get close to a perfect grade. His reasoning for this was to gain a meaningful understanding of how much the class had actually understood.

My thought with the DDO questing is make it so that those most difficult quests/raids of end game content have such a curve that even the most skilled team of player would only have a 25% chance of success due to what would be required to complete the task (ie. Time, Resources, Gear, & sheer luck). Yes this would discourage some people because then they will not be able to do some of what they used to, but it gives incentive to learn and progress in their level of play.

What I am suggesting has been seen in numerous other games and no I am not suggesting you do this with the current system, but if you were to add layers of difficulty, go for broke and make it insane. Also, couple game examples that have implented this type of difficulty setting that I am referring to are Doom, Wolfenstein: 3D, MassEffect 2, and Guild Wars (not specifically with settings, but with the difficulty of certain areas within the game, Domain of Anguish specifically).

You can't do that in a grind-based game where it takes you dozens-hundreds of completions of a quest/raid to acquire the gear you are looking for.

Cyr
08-19-2011, 09:16 AM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

I invite you to open up one of the many lengthy threads that existed around the time of that event.

In short the scaling system was not a difficulty scaling system. It was set up to be casual/normal. That simply will not work for epic or other high level content. There is nothing worse then watered down endgame content and there has been far too much of that already thank you very much.

I had a suggestion a while back about a method of addressing scaling by having epics have different difficulties with VERY IMPORTANTLY stronger loot (not just modified drop rates) only available from the higher settings.

TheDjinnFor
08-19-2011, 09:27 AM
Here's some suggestions I wrote up about a year ago (pre U9) - http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=272917 - the main change I'd make to them now is to give mobs a blanket immunity to area of effect death spells (while letting the single-target ones continue working).

Blanket immunity? No, that just leads to the same sorts of complaints pre-U9. We just need more variance in saves, HP, attack, damage, and attack behaviours. That alone should provide all the difficulty needed. Give about half the monsters in an epic quest deathblock. Give about 1/4th a dispelable deathward, and 1/8th an undispelable deathward. Do a similar thing with most other buffs, like TS, FoM, energy protection, etc.

Mix total trash mobs with zero immunities and low HP & low threat to the party with toughies that have full immunities and high HP & threat. Mix it up from there: give some no immunities to spells and high threat to melees, and give others lots of immunities to spells but no threat to melees.

In one quest, a max necro-DC wizard should be able to instant-kill many enemies, but never more than 75%, but there should be several enemies a low necro-DC wizard (say, 20 DC below) should be able to kill (maybe 25%). Have enough trashmobs and few enough shrines that spellcasters can't go mass wailing their way through the quest on auto-pilot, but keep them as trash mobs so that they don't make the quest excessively long or difficult for non-wizard groups.

What tends to happen with most quests is that they are either like Epic Claw, where casters have trouble wailing the scorpions and so will begrudgingly bring along melees, and Epic Last Stand, where they don't need help and melees are lucky to get a single kill each. Mix it up inside the quest, but make it more obvious which ones are trash and which are meant to test your limits.

Scraap
08-19-2011, 09:33 AM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

A few general notions:

Items:

Greensteel customizability is highly sought after mainly due to the flexibility of the system. Your only real limitation is how much you can put up with running the same content over and over again.
Favor required crafting emphasizes running certain types of quests for certain types of effects. (Do note that I still disagree with the required grind for those effects, but more as a return on investment, note, than anything else. The basic notion isn't horrific.)

On that note, perhaps a system such as:
Tier 1- Base item with one item-specific mutation when made epic.
Tier 2- Upgrade from a general dungeon token pool adding a personalized effect. (slots, like we have now, basically)
Tier 3- Upgrade further via Quest Area effects. (So sands specific, or fens, for instance adding 2-3 options)
Tier 4- Quest specific effects.

It seems, to me at least, that that would give a better sense of progression, as well as be a bit more consistent with prior content systems without necessarily breaking whats already there.

Offense:
Mobs have more than just reflex, fortitude, will saves, ac and a HP bar, and several of the balancing tools for str vs dex builds that work everywhere else get gutted come epic. Time to revisit that stat damage resistance ward. It's not like whittling it down to the point of being able to get 1.5 damage is nearly as nasty as back when that would be crit x4+

CC:
Nothing made me sadder than the first time I mass persuaded epic mobs only to see them blink 5 seconds later and come to eat me face anyway. They don't deal nearly as much damage as we do, so it doesn't really speed up encounters much to have them turn on each other. Particularly not if you're planning on keeping a reward-per-kill mechanic in place.

Defense:
I'm going to take the non-mainstream view, and say that grazing hits as a general notion was a decent attempt, but ended up a bit flawed from the perspective of giving a wider range of AC viability and desirability.
Going back to the source material, with a -5 progression on each successive attack, that'd see a range boost of about 15-20 AC, with each of those 5 points knocking off an entire attacks worth of damage. Perhaps lowering their to-hit, and baseline damage, and adding an x2, x3, x4 ect for every 5 points they succeed by would serve to replicate the notion of 1 mob taking 1 swing representing several (mobs or swings, take your pick).
After revisiting that, I'd suggest running the numbers and seeing what you could do about the S&B situation in terms of damage input vs output costs. After all, shaving off even half the physical damage taken as a trade off for half the physical damage put out still nets you the same resource loss, but at twice the real life time. Factor in that it exposes you to always taking at least half of magical damage, and that aspect clearly needs more work. After all, you presumably want the style to be of use for more than just one person in a raid, right?

Hope some of that made sense. The coffeemaker's whispering sweet nothings to me.

Thrudh
08-19-2011, 09:34 AM
A system similar to the one in crystal cove would be easier for the player to at least see/feel a more steady gear progression than farming hopelessly for that one rare shard, seal, or scroll.

This.

The Shroud was successful because you're always getting closer to your goal... You can see the progress with each run.. Even if you didn't get that last large devil scale you needed, you could sell the stuff you DID get and buy it...

Most raids are successful because of the 20th completion list... Even if you get skunked in the chest, at least you're making progress towards that next 20th list.

The epic system, you could play ALL day and be no closer to your goal. Reaver's Refuge system also failed at first because of this.

Please make systems that allow incremental progress, instead of "nothing for 40 runs", then "hurray you finally got lucky!"

Grieve
08-19-2011, 09:36 AM
You can't do that in a grind-based game where it takes you dozens-hundreds of completions of a quest/raid to acquire the gear you are looking for.

They could if they modified the loot drops and drop rate to scale with the difficulty and really the only area where that is a serious issue is the Desert, which I am betting they are looking at or will be soon to fix. I mean when you can have an raid group full of Epic Red Armor and eSoS wielding players some who are not even 6 month old accounts. You can't tell me that getting gear is a grind. I played a technically even more "casual" game than DDO and it took me over a year of grinding 5+ hours a day (normally more) in the same dungeon to get a specific item I was looking for. I mean certainly there is luck involved, but they could develop a better risk-reward system to go with the scaling difficulty if it's really that much of a problem.

Samadhi
08-19-2011, 09:44 AM
I invite you to elaborate more on what you'd hope to see, what you thought didn't work so well, etc. Good construcive feedback can only help.

What I'd hope to see?

More frequent loot drops. I am at 178 Epic Dragon completions. I have 0 SOS shards. I have only even seen one drop to anyone in party. I have 0 red dragon helms. I just saw my second one ever drop last night. Based on these stats, I am seeing drop rates of [1/(178*12)] or .000468 for the shard; double that for the helm. This is just so demoralizing and adds very little motivation to continue. The desert seems even worse but I didn't keep track of stats for that one.

What didn't work well?

As has been said before, adding a ton of HP does not make fights more dramatic, it just makes it boring. This has been said a lot of times. However, since apparently you felt the need to add a bunch of HP to raid bosses, the point has not gotten across. I love adding maximize to raid bosses on higher difficulties, don't get me wrong. That can definitely add some danger-feel. HP, however, just no.

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 09:47 AM
They could if they modified the loot drops and drop rate to scale with the difficulty and really the only area where that is a serious issue is the Desert, which I am betting they are looking at or will be soon to fix. I mean when you can have an raid group full of Epic Red Armor and eSoS wielding players some who are not even 6 month old accounts. You can't tell me that getting gear is a grind. I played a technically even more "casual" game than DDO and it took me over a year of grinding 5+ hours a day (normally more) in the same dungeon to get a specific item I was looking for. I mean certainly there is luck involved, but they could develop a better risk-reward system to go with the scaling difficulty if it's really that much of a problem.

Show me an "army" of players with ESoS and red-scale with less than 6-month old accounts. In the hundreds of dragons I've run in the past year i've pulled 2 Red Dragon Shards and 1 SoS Shard.

but yeah, the reward needs to equal the effort. If the new ToD/VoD/Shroud on elite pays the same crappy drop rate it does now then there is NO REASON AT ALL to run them other than epeen.

Schmoe
08-19-2011, 10:02 AM
I invite you to open up one of the many lengthy threads that existed around the time of that event.


That's a good point. I posted an extensive summary of my opinion in another thread about a year ago, as did many others. Here's the link to my post:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3174235#post3174235

My thoughts remain the same.

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 10:14 AM
What didn't work well?

As has been said before, adding a ton of HP does not make fights more dramatic, it just makes it boring. This has been said a lot of times. However, since apparently you felt the need to add a bunch of HP to raid bosses, the point has not gotten across. I love adding maximize to raid bosses on higher difficulties, don't get me wrong. That can definitely add some danger-feel. HP, however, just no.

I think the additional HP isn't going to be as big of a deal as we originally thought it was as player DPS is gonna get stupid high with DR-breaking lightning weapons and ESoS. The additional offense is nice as long as we have other means of defense besides "MOAR HP!!! HJEAL MEH!!" like epic's been since it's inception.

Grieve
08-19-2011, 10:29 AM
but yeah, the reward needs to equal the effort. If the new ToD/VoD/Shroud on elite pays the same crappy drop rate it does now then there is NO REASON AT ALL to run them other than epeen.

Let me highlight something that you pointed out that will be enough to motivate many gamers even if they won't admit it and don't say it won't because why do we have speed clear groups and an achievements forum. That isn't for us to contribute to the community. It's a way for someone to show off and boast and for the numerous people that care enough about it they will challenge themselves to complete those insane difficulties. Now maybe others won't, but they'll just take an easier grind route even if the higher difficulty is available has better benefits, but even without extra benefits people will attempt it multiple times until they can complete the quest just because they can then boast about it to others. It's all about the competitive spirit and at the high end of gaming it is more a competition and less a casual hobby. For those that do consider it a hobby, the change won't bother them.

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 10:34 AM
Let me highlight something that you pointed out that will be enough to motivate many gamers even if they won't admit it and don't say it won't because why do we have speed clear groups and an achievements forum. That isn't for us to contribute to the community. It's a way for someone to show off and boast and for the numerous people that care enough about it they will challenge themselves to complete those insane difficulties. Now maybe others won't, but they'll just take an easier grind route even if the higher difficulty is available has better benefits, but even without extra benefits people will attempt it multiple times until they can complete the quest just because they can then boast about it to others. It's all about the competitive spirit and at the high end of gaming it is more a competition and less a casual hobby. For those that do consider it a hobby, the change won't bother them.

Don't get me wrong, we're planning on doing Elite ToD the night U11 goes live. We'll do it once, just to say we did it. We normally run Elite 2-4 times a week. If the drop-rate isn't noticeably better there's no point in doing the raids frequently on Elite.

Xiadais
08-19-2011, 10:58 AM
I dichotomically disagree with this poster.

Give us an even tastier carrot hanging from your stick and we will keep paying you. Greensteel is nice, Epic Greensteel is better. I want better, as do most players.

Call it pride, call it hardcore, call it whatever; I am not satisfied with Madstone boots being so low level compared to cap and being 'the best melee dps boots.' Bring on Epic Gianthold. Bring on Epic Everything. Epic Waterworks, Epic Korthos Island, and new Epic Content that isn't out.

New shinies for new ways to pimp out our characters and pursue the goal of conquering everything -- new challenges to smash our faces in in the pursuit of the Perfect Quest.

And in order to benefit Turbine, there would have to be (an) adventure pack(s) that have to be bought to unlock f2p quests on epic. But yes, I agree with your whole post.

smatt
08-19-2011, 11:02 AM
What I'd hope to see?

More frequent loot drops. I am at 178 Epic Dragon completions. I have 0 SOS shards. I have only even seen one drop to anyone in party. I have 0 red dragon helms. I just saw my second one ever drop last night. Based on these stats, I am seeing drop rates of [1/(178*12)] or .000468 for the shard; double that for the helm. This is just so demoralizing and adds very little motivation to continue. The desert seems even worse but I didn't keep track of stats for that one.

What didn't work well?

As has been said before, adding a ton of HP does not make fights more dramatic, it just makes it boring. This has been said a lot of times. However, since apparently you felt the need to add a bunch of HP to raid bosses, the point has not gotten across. I love adding maximize to raid bosses on higher difficulties, don't get me wrong. That can definitely add some danger-feel. HP, however, just no.

Exactly... Tons of HP's isn't intersting... What is interesting are thigns like greater dispells, Mortikans disjunction... Spell selections... Danger danger.. Oh darned sorry your epics are blech for a while.... Now whatcha gonna do? Oh darned no GH/DW/FoM/Resists/TS now whatcha gonna do?


Now that's intersting.....

Sorry to those that don't like this kind of game.. But make it interesting... Bring back REAL air ellies... Remember the old beholders.... Un-gimp the new ones...


You can balance epics by adding shrines on taht difficulty only, AFTER certain objectives are complete. Giving the healing classes a chance to NOT spend a fortune......


Oh Shade's 50 epic items all broken No ESoS with ruin slotted, no 10 epic augment slots.. No tod rings busted busted busted... Oh darned his 4 puppy dog healers are busy healing themselves, or to busy buying more DDO store SP pots, all with broken gear and constant debuffs now what's he gonna do...:D


More interesting quest mechanics.. Not impossible ones, just different ones, remove the easy button shortcuts you put in or miss BEFORE the elite run them 1,000 times in the first 3 months and get everything, and then you go and fix them screwing the general population out of the easy button...

Make the grind worthwhile... I think the Vons is about right to be honest, although a few of the items need a once over to bring them up, but the grind for items sesm fair.. Desert is way out of whack, the few GREAT itmes are next to impossible to get.... Let's see something added so that after a certain amount fo runs you at least have a chance to make somethign nice in stead of having 4 junk seals, shards, scrolls for every itme that's a pice of stinking cow dung, and are always missing the 1 pice to complete the REALLY nice items.

Jahmin
08-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Didn't it take 2-3 months for anyone to beat Elite VON6?

No

Buggss
08-19-2011, 11:45 AM
....but yeah, the reward needs to equal the effort.....

True but only to a point.

Those who are only on their first 100 completes shouldn't have too much less chance of gaining loot than those on their 500th. Not everyone has enough spare time or cash resources to be able to put that much time into a game.

The best parts of DDO are the memorable loot drops that makes the whole group go "Cooooool, you lucky bar steward!"

KillEveryone
08-19-2011, 11:47 AM
If the drop-rate isn't noticeably better there's no point in doing the raids frequently on Elite.

This is why people typically only run harder difficulties for favor and farm on normal.

Loot drops really do need to be higher on harder difficulties to give any real incentive to run on elite.

smatt
08-19-2011, 12:13 PM
True but only to a point.

Those who are only on their first 100 completes shouldn't have too much less chance of gaining loot than those on their 500th. Not everyone has enough spare time or cash resources to be able to put that much time into a game.

The best parts of DDO are the memorable loot drops that makes the whole group go "Cooooool, you lucky bar steward!"


There's always goign to be someone who has more time or more money... Jsut as there's always goign to be someone with better twitch, more patience to refine a build in some fancy planner to be completely optimal.... More driven to find that little er um safe spot.. etc etc.....


There's a point where SOME players will create toosn of such power that they simply can't be challeneged within reason anymore. Many of those toosn will reside ont he accounts of a VERY small % of the player population. It's simply NOT worth it for the Devs to create content to challenge those players... It becomes worht it when say 10-20% of the gaming population hits a certain standard...

Khurse
08-19-2011, 01:25 PM
I think one of the big things for the Dev team is simple.

Learn how the game works and is played.

It should not be difficult to look at an item before it goes live and realize it's so far superior to every other item in the game, that players are going to be grinding the heck out of something to get it (Pre nerf ESOS), contrarily it shouldn't be hard to look at an Epic item and say "Why would anyone possibly craft this, ever?"


Gensai is doing an excellent job of rebooting some epic items, but it's fairly obvious that the people who designed many of them in the first place have no idea how the game works or how to balance it.

The crystal cove is (as mentioned) another example of this, yes it came out with a tiered system, but it let you make some fairly powerful items running a quests that's only real challenge was to not fall asleep.

I would honestly like to see Epics rebooted so that you have to have excellent toons with near perfect teamwork
stand a chance at success. I don't think new player who joined 2 months ago and now has hit level 20 with his 400HP 17 reflex save fighter dual wielding +1 Metalline of Pure Good longswords should stand a chance at completing an Epic quest.

I realize that not everyone agrees though, and I do think the tiered (21-25 or higher) system is the way to go.
I also believe though that there should be a better reward for doing the higher difficulty. And not just that it takes you fewer runs to get the best items. (ala the Cove event).

However while designing the highest tier, actually have someone read the forums (or play the game) and realize just how much damage the top players/toons can actually put out. Designing a level 25 quest and giving the Mobs a 15 Fort/Will save, 10(or even 30) pt energy resists and AC even a 10th level fighter has a decent chance at hitting is not going to sate anyones desire for a challenge,giving a better reward while providing no challenge is probably not the best way to go either.

In short, look on the forums for the Highest DPS builds, the claims (and achievements) of what FVS/Sorc/PM/whatever can do, and build something to challenge them.

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 01:43 PM
In short, look on the forums for the Highest DPS builds, the claims (and achievements) of what FVS/Sorc/PM/whatever can do, and build something to challenge them.

They did this with the original epics and it was a failure. but if it's a tiered system it might work.

Cyr
08-19-2011, 01:58 PM
They did this with the original epics and it was a failure. but if it's a tiered system it might work.

I disagree.

In fact, LFM's were constantly up for epics on my home server. However, certain epic packs most certainly DID flop. The sentinals pack being the biggest flop...that pack was actually very easy comparitvely, but yet people were not running it....because the real failure of epics was the loot and sentinals was the poster child for this design failure (now being addressed by Genasi who has done an admirable job for U11).

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 02:11 PM
I disagree.

In fact, LFM's were constantly up for epics on my home server. However, certain epic packs most certainly DID flop. The sentinals pack being the biggest flop...that pack was actually very easy comparitvely, but yet people were not running it....because the real failure of epics was the loot and sentinals was the poster child for this design failure (now being addressed by Genasi who has done an admirable job for U11).

With less than 5% of the players playing them. If it were profitable Turbine would have continued with that model.

level 21-25 content with N/H/E settings will reach a wider audience while allowing Turbine to up the challenge without leaving most of it's player base out of the fun.

Cyr
08-19-2011, 02:19 PM
With less than 5% of the players playing them. If it were profitable Turbine would have continued with that model.

Turbine never provided context for that number and as it lacked any useful context I will continue to ignore it as a useless number....it is like saying less then 5% of people play DDO (note it is about as generic as the quote was and heck it's even accurate if you assume 'people' are people who played ddo at one point!).

It should be painfully clear that Turbine decided that new quests themselves did not make them enough money. The top sellers in the store include no quest packs....

Turbine clearly has been starving their quest development department in favor of other development priorities as a whole. Some fun ones for you...

Pre EU Races and Classes developed after launch
2
Post EU Races and Classes developed after launch (so FvS are excluded)
3

New Raids Developed Pre EU after launch (so TS excluded)
8
New raids Developed Post EU after launch (so ToD exluded)
2

Store Items Developed and systems developed with store items in mind Pre EU after launch
0
Store Items developed and systems developed with store items in mind after EU launch
A heck of a lot

Remember also that post EU is less time then Pre EU after launch.

Cyr
08-19-2011, 02:21 PM
level 21-25 content with N/H/E settings will reach a wider audience while allowing Turbine to up the challenge without leaving most of it's player base out of the fun.

Quoted you too early before :(

I have no issues with N/H/E settings on level 21-25 content. I do have problems with the same loot being available from these settings though as it places the incentives strongly on the easy quick completions which is exactly the issue the game had prior to epics...almost no one ran hard/elite unless it was trivial already.

grodon9999
08-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Quoted you too early before :(

I have no issues with N/H/E settings on level 21-25 content. I do have problems with the same loot being available from these settings though as it places the incentives strongly on the easy quick completions which is exactly the issue the game had prior to epics...almost no one ran hard/elite unless it was trivial already.

That's easy, massively increase the drop-rates on elite. That's the EASIEST thing to balance.

Why are most VoD pugs on hard even if it's more than many pugs can handle? +3 tomes drop. Why are most Shroud pugs on normal? becauese the drop rates are the same regardless.

it's not "no challenge, no fun." It's "no reward, why bother?"

therobb
08-19-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm glad to hear that epic is still in development.

I'd like to see MUCH harder content or harder settings for existing stuff (epic Gianthold would be so much fun!). Give us something that that you think players have zero chance of ever beating.

Increase the number of random elements in a quest so that one run might be much harder than the last (the Trolls smelled you coming this time and called in reinforcements, set extra traps, etc.) Challenge us to find new solutions and most importantly, to work together in innovative ways.

Crystal cove was cool with its selectable difficulty levels, but even the highest difficulty was so easy that it didn't require much real teamwork or tactics.

We don't need any more epics where the caster solos all the way to the end with an "In progress" LFM because it's faster to just solo than to actually work with a team.

Elite New Invasion, when the pit fiend chains you on the force/curse traps, comes to mind as a good challenge example where I found myself saying, "wow, this is tough... it's going to require some thought on how to beat it."

At quest level, running solo VON1: Deadheart's attacks making you dance comes to mind as a real challenge.

As for other challenges, how about a quest or entire area where buffs, including ship buffs, do not work? Oh, and and the mobs carry vorpal, paralyzing, stat damaging, cursing, DR bypassing or energy draining weapons. Or mobs have weapons that bypass deathward & energy resists.

Or when an enemy caster hits a player character with a charm or dominate spell, the player character's perspective changes so that to them, the party members really look like enemy mobs... Imagine the hilarity: naturally the fighter player character rushes to stun/trip/kill the party caster.... man that would be a fun time. :P

Karbalis
08-19-2011, 10:02 PM
I am not satisfied with Madstone boots being so low level compared to cap and being 'the best melee dps boots.'

Sorry what? O.o You call these the BEST MELEE dps boots? Errrr... OK. :eek:

ag_gair_eos_ard
08-21-2011, 08:45 AM
Sorry what? O.o You call these the BEST MELEE dps boots? Errrr... OK. :eek:

If you never leave gianthold, they probably are.

Jacoby
08-21-2011, 09:41 AM
some Of Which I Think Many People Would Like To See Polished And Released... (cough, Cough, Epic Tor)

The Time A Guildy Put Up An Lfm For 'epic Tor, Must Have Beta Pass' On The Live Servers, He Counted 60 Or So 'how Do I Get The Beta Pass' Messages Before He Pulled It Down...


That's More Interest Than Any Other In-game Prank I Can Think Of...

100% Agreed!!!