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View Full Version : Allow human versitility to qualify for PrE requirements



ssgcmwatson
08-17-2011, 02:01 AM
Back in Update 7, class specific skill enhancements were replaced with "generalized" class skill enhancements. (i.e. "Rogue Hide I" was replaced with "Improved Hide I".) This made a wider variety of multiple PrE combinations possible.

I would be very happy if this could be taken one step further for humans/h-elves, and allow the Human Adaptability line qualify when appropriate.

For example:
Assassin I
Requires All of: Rogue Damage Boost II, Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I, Improved Hide II, Improved Move Silently II, Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
would be replaced with
Assassin I
Requires All of: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I, Improved Hide II, Improved Move Silently II, Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Requires One of: Rogue Damage Boost II, Human Adaptability II
Thoughts?

BrightAsh
08-17-2011, 02:19 AM
I like it. makes for a more versitile rogue and not let a those AP get to waste (rather, be more usefull, coz it is not a total waste)
rogues need some loving! :p

Lurzifer
08-17-2011, 03:03 AM
That would make Human Versatility a possible Pre-Req for Kensai, Stalwart, DoS, Frenzy Berserker and so on.
Basically every Pre that needs one of, Attack Damage Save AC or Skill boost.

I like it, saving AP is always welcome :)

Satinavian
08-17-2011, 03:10 AM
Another boost to humans and helfs making one of their favorite enhancements even more better than the specialized class enhancements ?

don't like it.

And as it seems after U11 there will be enough reasons for keeping the human and class enhancement line without wasting APs

kuro_zero
08-17-2011, 03:23 AM
Long ago I recall Eladrin mention this might be a possibility. I mean, it IS called human VERSATILLITY.

Now its probably an issur of balance with the lam preview of damage boost (% boost to base damage)

P.S. Human ADAPTABILITY is their stat boost, not their action boost.

Emili
08-17-2011, 03:47 AM
Another boost to humans and helfs making one of their favorite enhancements even more better than the specialized class enhancements ?

don't like it.

And as it seems after U11 there will be enough reasons for keeping the human and class enhancement line without wasting APs

Let's think about this...

You take adaptability, greater adaptablity a racial toughness and then must chose scope between wither taking HV or spending on class AP (like to support stunning blow) to get you barely caught up to another race in something like that... you pay more AP. Humans are not "versitle" as advertised. They are "more specific" Other races fit such in more easily per AC/DPS or AC/Tactic or DPS/Tactic if you wish to do one thing ... a human can be made to do so, but if you wish to do a second thing on the side it is far more costly to be human - one good and one half decent enough to actually use - it's far better to go with another race.

i.e. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3477886#post3477886 within this thread someone suggest dwarf or wf ... because it's by far easier to maintain such a dual function character in scope.

kmau
08-17-2011, 03:51 AM
I wasn't very happy when I had to take Barbarian Damage Boost instead of Human Versatility to get Frenzied Berserker, so I guess I support this. Make it Human-only tho, since Half-Elfs are already the new "better" versatile humans.

sephiroth1084
08-17-2011, 04:02 AM
Let's think about this...

You take adaptability, greater adaptablity a racial toughness and then must chose scope between wither taking HV or spending on class AP (like to support stunning blow) to get you barely caught up to another race in something like that... you pay more AP. Humans are not "versitle" as advertised. They are "more specific" Other races fit such in more easily per AC/DPS or AC/Tactic or DPS/Tactic if you wish to do one thing ... a human can be made to do so, but if you wish to do a second thing on the side it is far more costly to be human - one good and one half decent enough to actually use - it's far better to go with another race.


They're more versatile in that humans' bonuses can be leveraged into whatever role your character is:


Playing a caster? Put HA points in casting stat and Con. Take an extra Metamagic feat.
Playing a paladin? Put HA points into Str and Con, take an extra martial feat and maybe pick up a few ranks of HV for skills, AC and damage.
Playing a rogue? Put HA points in Str, Dex, Con, Int or Cha, take an extra martial feat and maybe pick up a few ranks of HV for skills and damage.

vs.

Elves:


Playing a caster? Spend points on SPen and SPoints or Arcane Casting Dexterity...or don't.
Playing a melee? Spend points in Dex if you care about that, or don't.
Use scimitars/longswords/falchions/longbows, or ditch the racial trait bonus.

Consider how many humans you see represented in each class around town vs. how many you see of the other races. How many dwarven wizards, sorcerers, favored souls, rogues or bards do you see around Stormreach? How many elven barbarians, fighters, paladins, clerics, favored souls, sorcerers or bards? How many non-melee half-orcs?

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All of that aside, I think the prerequisite system could use a major overhaul, one piece of which should be unifying similar enhancements, but I don't feel that simply wedging Human Versatility into everything is a good idea without other considerations.

Personally, I think HV should offer smaller bonuses than the class-based versions of AC, Damage, Skill and Save Boosts offer--a barbarian shouldn't be taking HV instead of their own Damage Boost simply because HV offers much more for the same cost and effect (assuming HV could act as a prereq for Frenzied Berserker).

Emili
08-17-2011, 04:03 AM
I wasn't very happy when I had to take Barbarian Damage Boost instead of Human Versatility to get Frenzied Berserker, so I guess I support this. Make it Human-only tho, since Half-Elfs are already the new "better" versatile humans.

That is due to the better choice of feat selection helf have to actually compliment the build.

kuro_zero
08-17-2011, 04:04 AM
I wasn't very happy when I had to take Barbarian Damage Boost instead of Human Versatility to get Frenzied Berserker, so I guess I support this. Make it Human-only tho, since Half-Elfs are already the new "better" versatile humans.

Disagree there. Bonus feat and extra skill points is equal to the dile in my book, and just as versatile.

bloodnose13
08-17-2011, 07:24 AM
That would be great, on rogue human versatility does exactly same thing that is done by rogue skill boost, it seems very logical, it would fit the human versatile nature description. and it could be added to every prestige for every class for humans.

i like this idea
i wont post /signed becouse i dont like those posts :P

R0cksteady
08-17-2011, 07:28 AM
Sign, definitely.

Bodic
08-17-2011, 07:50 AM
Once upon a time HV was way to powerful I enjoyd it myself. Now you want it to be more powerful.

It was a static +1-5 which stacked with rogue skill boost we didnt have 23 ranks back then only 15. Costs were a touch different as we lacked lvl 13+.

rodallec
08-17-2011, 08:06 AM
Just want a frenzy 2 assassin 1
Damn damage boost why can you be more generic for pre purposes!

Emili
08-17-2011, 01:41 PM
They're more versatile in that humans' bonuses can be leveraged into whatever role your character is:


Playing a caster? Put HA points in casting stat and Con. Take an extra Metamagic feat.
Playing a paladin? Put HA points into Str and Con, take an extra martial feat and maybe pick up a few ranks of HV for skills, AC and damage.
Playing a rogue? Put HA points in Str, Dex, Con, Int or Cha, take an extra martial feat and maybe pick up a few ranks of HV for skills and damage.

vs.

Elves:


Playing a caster? Spend points on SPen and SPoints or Arcane Casting Dexterity...or don't.
Playing a melee? Spend points in Dex if you care about that, or don't.
Use scimitars/longswords/falchions/longbows, or ditch the racial trait bonus.

Consider how many humans you see represented in each class around town vs. how many you see of the other races. How many dwarven wizards, sorcerers, favored souls, rogues or bards do you see around Stormreach? How many elven barbarians, fighters, paladins, clerics, favored souls, sorcerers or bards? How many non-melee half-orcs?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of that aside, I think the prerequisite system could use a major overhaul, one piece of which should be unifying similar enhancements, but I don't feel that simply wedging Human Versatility into everything is a good idea without other considerations.

Personally, I think HV should offer smaller bonuses than the class-based versions of AC, Damage, Skill and Save Boosts offer--a barbarian shouldn't be taking HV instead of their own Damage Boost simply because HV offers much more for the same cost and effect (assuming HV could act as a prereq for Frenzied Berserker).

They're great for PM, Sorc, Cleric and casting FvS. Lack of good martial feats in game though leaves the scope a little dry. Elves/Drow are pretty poor in design outside the second best wide crit area and the scope of their HP become their main detriment. If you are not a caster you are a melee ... or a piker?

The typical extra feat on a human melee ends up being khopesh on many builds or extend on pally. Toughness, (twf/2hf, itwf/i2h, gtwf/g2hf), IC:slash, PA, Ewp: Khopesh ... after those there are no martials to make much difference. This is why the typical human pally looks at extend for their short term buffs. Tacticals and you need make a DC to make such count and certain races attune to allow that for easier to attain while keeping main aspect, SF:UMD but anyone can attain umd via gear easily if going that route, AC but what is doable via a AC feat is doable via one ap in racial enhancement and typically those races start at a higher bonus.

HV enhancement is more akin an adrelin shot in it's use for AC, Skill or Saves. When we look at human meleeing based builds in the build pages many start out as human but then get tweaked into another race as hybrid - there are reasons for that. I myself start out my builds in a planner as human then "what if" plan into another race.