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Ungood
08-10-2011, 12:13 PM
This suggestion is inspired by this Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=333946)

I want to preface this by saying I can fully respect a players desire to want to keep a high end tome like a +4 or +3.

However, to just tell Turbine that they should do it, or need to do it, I believe will not accomplish much beyond taking up space on their forums.

I follow the belief that for Turbine to do something, we need to show them or express to them how they can make this profitable for them.

Thus, I suggest that a New Tome be put in the DDO store. A Tome of Soul Binding. Cost 3500 TP, and upon use will bind any and all previously used tomes to the players soul so they can keep the benefits though TRing. (applied as they level IE: +2 Tomes would auto apply at 7th, etc) (Added by Poster Feedback: This price seems a tad high, and should be brought down a little, perhaps to align with a Supreme Ability Tome at 2495 TP, to be realistically obtainable, after all, it holds a huge potential to entice more sales of True Drudic Hearts of Wood, if players could keep their higher end tomes when they TRed, makes sense to me, so I am adding it to the OP http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-computer004.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) )

Why so pricey you ask? because a +2 Supreme Ability tome costs 2495 TP, and if players are going to get to keep that benefit (and maybe a bit more) through TRing, it should reflect in a profit to Turbine to loose the replete sales of their other Store Bought Tomes, and because and I think it would be fair to expect people to put their money where their mouth is when they say they want something.

This is my idea to solve the problem with Tomes not passing though TRing.

Because I feel that posting solutions is better then just complaining about problems.

Added Ideas By Posters:



Have additional Options, Example: 750 TP for a single stat Tome of Binding and the larger price for an all inclusive Supreme Ability Tome of Binding. The single Stat tome would be good for people who only feel the need to keep/protect their top tier +4 tomes, as +2 tomes drop frequently enough to replace them each life. (Credit: Kernal42)




Add a Binding Tome as a 3500 Max Favor Reward: Perhaps a single stat Tome of Binding or something along these lines. Maybe make parts that can be collected to make a tome of binding, from maxing different favor rewards, IE: one part from max Coin Lord, another Part from Max House J, and other from House P, where you talk to Nix to combine them into a tome. Etc, Etc. to motivate players to still grind up the favor each life, Tome would be exclusive. (Credit: TTheRobai) -And/Or- Allow for the Purchase for Single State Binding Tomes with Epic tokens: Say, 20 or more epic tokens gets you a Single Stat Binding Tome. With the idea that perhaps a limit on this, to say, any binding tome obtained in this manner would need to be exclusive, simply because unlike the maxing favor, epic tokens have no limit on how many can be obtained and they survive past TRing. The surviving past TRing is the cinch point here, which is why any tome purchased in this manner would need to be limited to one per life. (Credit:Nospheratus)




Have an after TR system in Place Recover Bound Tomes: have it so that if you TRed and did not bind the tomes, give a ping back (maybe a little ! Box) To let you know you have Raid Bound tomes you can still "recall" if you want. Then if the player goes to Kruz, the Reincarnation Trainer, they can Open the DDO Store, and Restore their Raid Bound Tomes. Perhaps having a line like: "Your spirit carries with it a tickle of knowledge about Bodily Health from a bound tome that you used in a prior life. Do you wish Kruz, the Reincarnation Trainer, to expend energies to allow that tickle of knowledge to persist?" <link to the DDO Store> . Just in case players did not bind their important tomes before they TRed to give them a safety net to catch upon. Perhaps keep this at the single target "raid tomes only" type of deal, as opposed to a full "all stats" type of deal. (Credit: Cauthey)
Have Store Bought +2 Tomes restore any Higher Plus Tomes you may have used in a past life: Once used the +2 Store Bought tome will increase your stat by +2, however, (Some role play reason to explain that these are not your normal every day average +2 tomes) they posses the power to recall any previous tome used, ergo, if you used a +4 str tome in your past life and then use a +2 Store Bought Str tome this life, you will get the +2 at level 7 and the +4 at level 15 (I think?) Where Supreme Ability Tomes will of course restore any and all tomes used in previous life. (Credit:Asketes) (sorry I missed this one man, it's quite good!)




Having Fred (The Friecndly Feat Exchanger) pull the tome from your character before you TR: This will allow the player to put the tome in their bank: Have this process cost several Astral Diamons, or quite of Purified Ebberon Dragonshards or something else along those lines that while exists in the game, can also be easily obtained via the store, this along with a sizable amount of plat, the millions per say. This could be handy, because if a player decides they want to TR two or three more times, they could just remove the tome and then TR to their hearts content and read the tome after the fact, but if something new comes up, they can still restore the tome again. (Credit: charlescrowe)




Have a special Heart of Wood to Mix with a Tome to make it Persistent: Put in the store (or make as a final max favor reward) a new kind of Heart of Wood that can be mixed with a tome to make the tome persistent to survive though TRing, could use the Stone of Change for this. (Credit: Elaril/Others)


I would like to say, however, principal ideas need to express how this would be profitable to Turbine to implement this. Making a way for players to get them for free is welcome, but needs to be applied with caution, as Turbine still needs to turn a profit from this idea. Thank you.

All of these are great ideas! Keep em coming. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-computer005.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Dredus
08-10-2011, 12:16 PM
/signed

Reasonable enough to let people who have used their +3 and +4 tomes TR to their liking, but expensive enough for people to still hold off on using +3/+4 tomes until on their final life to save 3500 or so points per life.

Great Idea.

DragonMageT
08-10-2011, 12:18 PM
I would go for that but drop the price just a bit...say 2500 or 3000.
Bet you didn't see that coming :)

/signed

Ninety
08-10-2011, 12:18 PM
I like it.

Would make it where I don't have to run Reaver and Shroud every life. Can just run to 20 and then TR again.

kernal42
08-10-2011, 12:20 PM
I would rather see a rare drop & store-bought item that retains a single tome.
Perhaps you choose a stat (str), and the highest-used tome in that stat is re-built. So if you have a +3 inherent bonus to str, then upon use of this item you get back a BTC +3 str tome. Bank it for next life, and continue.

Additionally, this has the benefit of maintaining demand for +2 tomes, in both the DDO economy and from the DDO store.
Finally, for those who TR often (completionists), savings can be made by not using your now-banked str tome on a wizard life.

The "all-in-one" item you describe seems too heavy-handed to me, somehow. And, perhaps more importantly, expensive ;).

Cheers,
Kernal

Ungood
08-10-2011, 12:42 PM
I could see an option for both ways.

Say 750 TP for a single stat Tome of Binding and the larger price for an all inclusive Supreme Ability Tome of Binding. The single Stat tome would be good for people who only feel the need to keep/protect their top tier +4 tomes, as +2 tomes drop frequently enough to replace them each life.

Good ideas!:D

kernal42
08-10-2011, 12:44 PM
I could see an option for both ways.

Say 750 TP for a single stat Tome of Binding and the larger price for an all inclusive tome. The single Stat tome would be good for people who only feel the need to keep/protect their top tier +4 tomes, as +2 tomes drop frequently enough to replace them each life.

Good ideas!:D

Price feels right!

Cyr
08-10-2011, 12:58 PM
/not signed

Turbine should be making money by making more dungeons, classes, and races and not by trying to sell loot to players by another name.

Bobthesponge
08-10-2011, 12:59 PM
/NO NO NONONOONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Once again one of our top 3 easy buttons gets another thread. That horse has left the barn, been tracked, set upon and beaten to death, then raised up as a skeletal horse and beaten to undeath.

When you TR you die. You lose your tome bonus. Deal with it. You also lose XP and favor. This is how the game works and it does not neetd to be changed.

RTN
08-10-2011, 01:04 PM
/NO NO NONONOONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Once again one of our top 3 easy buttons gets another thread. That horse has left the barn, been tracked, set upon and beaten to death, then raised up as a skeletal horse and beaten to undeath.

When you TR you die. You lose your tome bonus. Deal with it. You also lose XP and favor. This is how the game works and it does not neetd to be changed.

Agreed. It should stay the way it currently is.

Rodasch
08-10-2011, 01:05 PM
Here was a better solution supplied in another thread.


Make tomes reusable and Bind to Character - On Use. Heck make just raid tomes reusable (would breathe some life into the +2 tomes from VON/Titan/DQ which are now inferior to common loot-gen tomes...)

This would make more sense and I could even get behind this.

In PnP the tomes don't disappear after use, they just become no longer of further benefit to the character who read them, since they already have the bonus.

Robai
08-10-2011, 01:28 PM
I think it should be possible, but it shouldn't be that easy.

A Tome of Soul Binding should be some craftable item with mechanics similar to Epics.
Shard of Tome of Soul Binding (BTC) = random drop in Epic raid chest (any chest, not just end chest) or 3500 TP in DDO store.
Seal of Tome of Soul Binding (BTA) = random drop in Epic quest chest (any chest, not just end chest) or 2500 TP in DDO store.
Scroll of Tome of Soul Binding (not bound) = random drop from Epic mobs (no DDO store option).

Additionally, when you reach 3500 favor, Nyx should reward you one of those three parts (you can choose which: Shard, Seal or Scroll).
And maybe this should be one time per server bonus only :)

protokon
08-10-2011, 01:39 PM
not signed. I'd rather let my +4 tomes rot in my bank than pay money to be able to eat them. Raid loot should be kept on death. We should keep the tome after reading it (and make it bound to character if it isn't already).

blade_of_will
08-10-2011, 02:05 PM
I like both the item to return the tome and the btc on use ideas. The bind to one stat idea is passable, but kinda meh. As a premium player, I think I would rather have a juicy +4 tome waiting for me on a final life than spend 3500 tp-worth (would take over 40 usd) on a single item that would be required for me to keep my already very difficult to get items through multiple lives. I might even be somewhat ****ed that I would be almost required to spend a large amount of money to make full use of an already very hard to get item - even though right now, it can just go poof.

dragonofsteel2
08-10-2011, 04:28 PM
/signed

Grinds have nothing to do with easy or hard all they do is take up your time. I want challenges not grinds. Reality people that know they TR never use there tomes they just sit in the bank p, so what does it really do make that Tome sit there for 6 months and longer? Games should be fun not mindless dumb grind for +4 or +3 tomes that sit in a TR's bank all the time.

Gunga
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
Sure. I'd buy the supreme or single stat versions.

/signed

Ungood
08-10-2011, 08:01 PM
It seems Mad Floyd might be on board with this idea as well. Check it out! (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3983366&postcount=158)

Ebuddy
08-10-2011, 08:17 PM
No more "Easy Buttons", please. I am getting ready to TR one toon who has eaten a whole collection of +3 tomes. I am getting ready by collecting a library of +1, +2 and +3 tomes. When I have them, I will TR. The grind for them isn't all that bad....and I HATE grind. ;o)

Ungood
08-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Had a discussion with an in game friend. they proposed another idea.

Have it so that you if you have a +3 or +5 Heart of Wood, you can combine it with a + 3 or +4 Tome which will make the tome (Single tome use per heart) bound to the character's soul and pass through TRing.

I thought it was a good enough idea to post it here for them.

Note: I would also like to add that I am not discussing if people want to keep their tomes, it has been discussed on the topic I linked in the OP, and it is apparent that people do want to keep their tomes. I am simply proposing a means by which that can happen which would entice Turbine to make it a reality for those who seek it. While I respect and appreciate anyone's opinion and and their right to express it, I honestly am only looking for feed back from the demographic that wants to keep their tomes past TRing about the viability of this idea. And I would like to extend a thank you to those that did respond and offer insight and advice.

dingal
08-11-2011, 09:56 AM
/NO NO NONONOONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Once again one of our top 3 easy buttons gets another thread. That horse has left the barn, been tracked, set upon and beaten to death, then raised up as a skeletal horse and beaten to undeath.

When you TR you die. You lose your tome bonus. Deal with it. You also lose XP and favor. This is how the game works and it does not neetd to be changed.

No

Cauthey
08-11-2011, 10:09 AM
You play and play and play. You end up finding a +4 Tome. Yay!

But wait, +4 Tomes go away when you TR. So you've never TR'd? You might want to TR. Better not eat the +4 Tome.

So now, this prized, uber reward goes into the bank. And there it sits. Most likely forever.

So what is this prized, uber reward? A permanent removal of 1 bank space.

Honestly, I think the best solution for it is this, which differentiates between "raid" loot tomes (any tome that is bound) and just plain tomes (including the unbound +4 Tome that the Jester allegedly gives away):


IMO this should be the solution, but only for raid loot tomes.

+2 tome drops from a regular chest in Mindsunder - it's one-use.

+2 tome drops from (non-epic) Velah - it persists through TRs.

+4 tome drops from a festival - one use.

+4 tome from Horoth's chest - not destroyed on use, so again persists through TRs.

Gunga
08-11-2011, 10:17 AM
You play and play and play. You end up finding a +4 Tome. Yay!

But wait, +4 Tomes go away when you TR. So you've never TR'd? You might want to TR. Better not eat the +4 Tome.

So now, this prized, uber reward goes into the bank. And there it sits. Most likely forever.

So what is this prized, uber reward? A permanent removal of 1 bank space.

Honestly, I think the best solution for it is this, which differentiates between "raid" loot tomes (any tome that is bound) and just plain tomes (including the unbound +4 Tome that the Jester allegedly gives away):

That's my favorite solution, as well.

Asketes
08-11-2011, 10:20 AM
I would prefer this:

+1/+2 tomes are NOT retained

+3/+4 tomes ARE retained on each TR (at appropriate levels) ONCE you have eaten a +2 tome on the stat previously buffed

Ungood
08-11-2011, 10:23 AM
You play and play and play. You end up finding a +4 Tome. Yay!

But wait, +4 Tomes go away when you TR. So you've never TR'd? You might want to TR. Better not eat the +4 Tome.

So now, this prized, uber reward goes into the bank. And there it sits. Most likely forever.

So what is this prized, uber reward? A permanent removal of 1 bank space.

Honestly, I think the best solution for it is this, which differentiates between "raid" loot tomes (any tome that is bound) and just plain tomes (including the unbound +4 Tome that the Jester allegedly gives away):

I can respect this idea, however, there are 2 issues that would need to resolved before this could be implemented:


Given the outcry on this forum and the one linked in the OP, there are players that adamantly against the idea of tomes passing from one TR to the other. And I would feel it would be unjust to force upon them that they have to keep their tome though a TR. This would need to be resolved before the idea could be implemented.

There needs to be a incentive by Turbine to implement this idea. IE: You need to show how is it profitable for them. Using lines like people quitting, or exodus, are not viable, as with every change and update there is always an outcry of people quitting or a threat of exodus of players to the point that is almost a meme on the forums waiting for it to be brought up. IE: can I have your stuff?

I look forward to seeing what you provide.

Cauthey
08-11-2011, 10:25 AM
I didn't think about it until just now, but if the big + ability tomes did have some measure of persistance between TRs, it could potentially provide some better goodwill between players.

Tomes burn up in TR:
Gunga: "Woohoo! My SECOND +4 Con Tome!"
Cauthey: "Woah! Is that thing up for roll?"
Gunga: "No way! I'm hording these badboys. They burn up when you TR. So, I'm going to eat my first +4 Con Tome, and save this one for a future life!"
Cauthey: "Aww... *sad panda*"

Tomes have some measure of persistance through a TR:
Gunga: "Woohoo! A +4 Con Tome!"
Cauthey: "Woah! Is that thing up for roll?"
Gunga: "Sure! I've already eaten a +4 Con Tome, and though I have to do xyz to keep it through a TR, it will persist."
Cauthey: "Awesome!"
Cauthey rolls a 4 on a d100.
Cauthey: "Aww... *sad panda*"

FastTaco
08-11-2011, 10:29 AM
No more "Easy Buttons", please. I am getting ready to TR one toon who has eaten a whole collection of +3 tomes. I am getting ready by collecting a library of +1, +2 and +3 tomes. When I have them, I will TR. The grind for them isn't all that bad....and I HATE grind. ;o)

On my bard I have over 300 raid completions, 15 20ths. I've never looted a +3 or +4 tome out of a chest, never been able to roll on one either. In my 15 20ths I've never received a single choice of a +3 strength,Consitution or Intelligence tome.

This is on just one character! If you don't think the grind is bad there is no way you play more then 1-2 characters, even with 1-2 it IS bad, you must be lucky.

Cauthey
08-11-2011, 10:30 AM
I can respect this idea, however, there are 2 issues that would need to resolved before this could be implemented:


Given the outcry on this forum and the one linked in the OP, there are players that adamantly against the idea of tomes passing from one TR to the other. And I would feel it would be unjust to force upon them that they have to keep their tome though a TR.
There needs to be a incentive by Turbine to implement this idea. IE: You need to show how is it profitable for them. Using lines like people quitting, or exodus, are not viable, as with every change and update there is always an outcry of people quitting or a threat of exodus of players to the point that is almost a meme on the forums waiting for it to be brought up. IE: can I have your stuff?

I look forward to seeing what you provide.

Why not have some of both solutions?

While TRing, an interface comes up at the beginning:
"Your spirit carries with it a tickle of knowledge about Bodily Health from a bound tome that you used in a prior life. Do you wish Kruz, the Reincarnation Trainer, to expend energies to allow that tickle of knowledge to persist?" <link to the DDO Store>

Alternative
08-11-2011, 10:30 AM
next thing you propose a package of bug fixes for TP in ddo store?

/not signed

Let us keep tomes just like we keep crafting levels, we earned them.

Ungood
08-11-2011, 10:43 AM
Why not have some of both solutions?

While TRing, an interface comes up at the beginning:
"Your spirit carries with it a tickle of knowledge about Bodily Health from a bound tome that you used in a prior life. Do you wish Kruz, the Reincarnation Trainer, to expend energies to allow that tickle of knowledge to persist?" <link to the DDO Store>

I am not against this either and as far as I would be concerned, it is fine. But how is this any different then what I proposed with the binding tome that would be bought before you TRed?

I suppose maybe an after TR safe-guard or little heads up, just in case people forgot that they ate a Raid Bound tome, might be handy.

Edit Added: after some thought, I updated the OP to reflect this idea you proposed. Looks good to me! I hope I got the premise right.

Nospheratus
08-11-2011, 11:02 AM
How about allowing the purchase of such binding tomes with epic tokens?

Ungood
08-11-2011, 12:52 PM
How about allowing the purchase of such binding tomes with epic tokens?

I updated the OP to take this into Consideration. Thank you.

likuei
08-14-2011, 02:23 AM
not signed. I'd rather let my +4 tomes rot in my bank than pay money to be able to eat them. Raid loot should be kept on death. We should keep the tome after reading it (and make it bound to character if it isn't already).

You do get to keep all raid loot after you TR ... in the bank. I believe the misconception about tomes is the higher ones come from much higher level quests (not just raids). Shards, Epic anything and tomes = consumables that can be kept in the bank. Upon using them and they are gone. Please stop with the semantics to validate your position.

charlescrowe
08-14-2011, 11:26 AM
Perhaps we could enlist the services of Fred once again? Give him the ability to remove the inherent bonus and apply it to an item created using say 50 purified eberron dragonshards at the cost of a flawless siberys dragonshard? (shard required depending on the bonus size, case being +4 so flawless shard) makes perfect sense to me /shrug

Ungood
08-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Perhaps we could enlist the services of Fred once again? Give him the ability to remove the inherent bonus and apply it to an item created using say 50 purified eberron dragonshards at the cost of a flawless siberys dragonshard? (shard required depending on the bonus size, case being +4 so flawless shard) makes perfect sense to me /shrug

This is an inventive solution. I'll update the OP. Thank you.

Elaril
08-14-2011, 12:36 PM
My favorite solution was the inclusion of a new type of heart of wood, only purchasable via the store, that allows for tomes to be kept through true reincarnation.

Ungood
08-14-2011, 12:56 PM
My favorite solution was the inclusion of a new type of heart of wood, only purchasable via the store, that allows for tomes to be kept through true reincarnation.

I'll add that to the OP as well.

OpallNotten
08-22-2011, 10:31 AM
Charging TP to keep tomes after TRing is a bad idea IMO.

+1s and +2s fall from the sky. It is not an issue to replace those tomes.....again IMO.

+3s and +4s are Raid Loot.....unless you get lucky with a gold coin turn in:p

You get to retain all raid loot when you TR. It is only right to be able to retain those +3s and +4s as well.

OP, not signed to charge for this because it should be free.

As it stands now, I am TRing about every 12-14 days. I can sit and look at my wonderful Tomes in the bank but I can't bring myself to eat them.
And until Turbine states that my 3s and 4s will be retained after I TR again, that is where they will sit:( Kinda sad:(

Opall

Ungood
08-22-2011, 09:16 PM
Charging TP to keep tomes after TRing is a bad idea IMO.

+1s and +2s fall from the sky. It is not an issue to replace those tomes.....again IMO.

+3s and +4s are Raid Loot.....unless you get lucky with a gold coin turn in:p

You get to retain all raid loot when you TR. It is only right to be able to retain those +3s and +4s as well.

Two years ago, when I first started playing, I stumbled my way out of Krothos into the Harbor, and there I met the most curious of creatures, an ooze with a name, called Muck. After our encounter I was rewarded with my valiant slaying of the beast with a much coveted weapon, called the Muckbane. I loved that weapon and moved forth against my gelatinous foes fearlessly with my noble muckbane in hand. However, I was not always fast enough to swap from my beloved weapon to my trusty dwarf axe skull buster when the mobs went from jello to kobold and quickly my weapon took damage. Horror struck me as red began to appear on the durability of my most prized weapon and like any brave and confident adventure I cried for help on the advice channel. I was shown the power of the Kyber Dragonshard Fragments and how they would stop my weapon from ever taking red damage again, at the cost that the weapon would forever be bound to me, I do not even think I gave the helpful fellow the chance to try and talk me out of it by the time I was mashing at the stone of change to bind my great Muckbane to me forever!

Since that time, I now have a pair of them, that I force ritualed and still pull out every life, every ooze, even rust monsters feel their dull glass clunk across their noggin.

So what was the point of writing all that? Well, I wrote all that because those Muckbanes have survived 2 TR's, not because they are rare, or raid loot, or even hard to replace, it is because my Gear, ALL of IT, was passed down from life to life, because that was what was said as part of the condition when I TR'ed. There was no standard put on my gear that it had to rare to survive the process.

And I will say, I would hate for them to have been taken from me simply because they did not meet an arbitrary criteria of being rare enough, or not being raid gear. So, with all this, that same mentality should apply to tomes as well. Either a viable logical reason for all tomes to remain should be proposed, or they should all go away. Simply being rare or common is not enough.

Because much like my Muckbanes, just because it is not some a super rare raid item, does not mean I want it taken from me, and truth be told, if I was told I had to give up my Muckbanes to TR, I honestly do not think I ever would have done it.

So. With that said. If you have a reason why Tomes should remain through TRing. I welcome you to explain it, but, understand, "It's rare" is not reason enough.

OpallNotten
08-23-2011, 08:13 AM
Two years ago, when I first started playing, I stumbled my way out of Krothos into the Harbor, and there I met the most curious of creatures, an ooze with a name, called Muck. After our encounter I was rewarded with my valiant slaying of the beast with a much coveted weapon, called the Muckbane. I loved that weapon and moved forth against my gelatinous foes fearlessly with my noble muckbane in hand. However, I was not always fast enough to swap from my beloved weapon to my trusty dwarf axe skull buster when the mobs went from jello to kobold and quickly my weapon took damage. Horror struck me as red began to appear on the durability of my most prized weapon and like any brave and confident adventure I cried for help on the advice channel. I was shown the power of the Kyber Dragonshard Fragments and how they would stop my weapon from ever taking red damage again, at the cost that the weapon would forever be bound to me, I do not even think I gave the helpful fellow the chance to try and talk me out of it by the time I was mashing at the stone of change to bind my great Muckbane to me forever!

Since that time, I now have a pair of them, that I force ritualed and still pull out every life, every ooze, even rust monsters feel their dull glass clunk across their noggin.

So what was the point of writing all that? Well, I wrote all that because those Muckbanes have survived 2 TR's, not because they are rare, or raid loot, or even hard to replace, it is because my Gear, ALL of IT, was passed down from life to life, because that was what was said as part of the condition when I TR'ed. There was no standard put on my gear that it had to rare to survive the process.

And I will say, I would hate for them to have been taken from me simply because they did not meet an arbitrary criteria of being rare enough, or not being raid gear. So, with all this, that same mentality should apply to tomes as well. Either a viable logical reason for all tomes to remain should be proposed, or they should all go away. Simply being rare or common is not enough.

Because much like my Muckbanes, just because it is not some a super rare raid item, does not mean I want it taken from me, and truth be told, if I was told I had to give up my Muckbanes to TR, I honestly do not think I ever would have done it.

So. With that said. If you have a reason why Tomes should remain through TRing. I welcome you to explain it, but, understand, "It's rare" is not reason enough.


That's just it. They allow you to keep everything in a recon bank.

I agree with you. Saying "It's Rare" is not a good enough reason. But they allow you to keep everything Rare minus Tomes eaten.

But I am not just saying "It's Rare". I am talking about Raid Loot. I have never been lucky enough to turn in a Gold Coin and get a +4 Tome. All of my Tomes +3 and higher are Raid Loot. IMO, Turbine should not be able to take those away from you when you TR.
Technically, I have not had them taken from me. I opted not to use them because I know I am going to be TRing this 1 character for the next 4-5 months. So they are just cluttering up bank space.
Even when I am done with this character, as it stands now, I am not sure If I would be ok with consuming the Tomes. I know as soon as I do, 2 weeks later they will come out with some other class I will want to run 3 lives of to make my character that much better. Then that will be a HUGE waste of good Tomes I spent time for Raiding to get.

I don't agree with Turbines way of handling this.
I also do not agree with paying for something that should be free.

I guess I am just not very agreeable today:p

Ungood
08-23-2011, 09:21 AM
That's just it. They allow you to keep everything in a recon bank.

I agree with you. Saying "It's Rare" is not a good enough reason. But they allow you to keep everything Rare minus Tomes eaten.

But I am not just saying "It's Rare". I am talking about Raid Loot. I have never been lucky enough to turn in a Gold Coin and get a +4 Tome. All of my Tomes +3 and higher are Raid Loot. IMO, Turbine should not be able to take those away from you when you TR.
Technically, I have not had them taken from me. I opted not to use them because I know I am going to be TRing this 1 character for the next 4-5 months. So they are just cluttering up bank space.
Even when I am done with this character, as it stands now, I am not sure If I would be ok with consuming the Tomes. I know as soon as I do, 2 weeks later they will come out with some other class I will want to run 3 lives of to make my character that much better. Then that will be a HUGE waste of good Tomes I spent time for Raiding to get.

I don't agree with Turbines way of handling this.
I also do not agree with paying for something that should be free.

I guess I am just not very agreeable today:p

I remember my first time TRing. I huddled my guild mates around me, as I was the first among them to make 20th, and thus, Kruz waited for me at his tree. Trembling before him with my True Druidic Heart of Wood, I knelt down and opted to take him up on his offer of a new life, stronger, larger, better then I had been in the past. I read everything he told me a few times, and I admit, a sign of weakness and pulled the heart away from him a few times before I admitted was ready to fully die, and allow my body, and all it achieved to be made nothing short of ash for his tree. 5 Stat level ups that I painfully earned by pounding my way with brute paladinly stupidity, quest after quest, being endlessly called a gimp because I used a dwarf axe and a Shield by the soul stones in my backpack - undaunted I carried on. And I did it! I made it to 20th, my very first time with my very first build! I felt alive in ways I had no words for, never before in a game did I make level cap, they always just raised it on me, tantalizing me, keeping it just out of my reach. But not here! Here I made it! Blood, Sweat, tears and literally months of effort went into those levels. Frustration of failure and the joys of triumph filled each of those levels and what felt like hours of internal struggle filled each of those stat level ups as I wondered if I should try to increase my pure sexy dwarven awesomeness of be able to chug down one more trap before I die.

After reading everything said on giving up my new life, looking it up and time and time again making sure my precious muckbanes would stay with me, as anything that was not bound to me found its way to either an alt or a friend, I was not about to take a risk with precious Risa Ice Games Frost Burst +5 Curse-spewing Force Ritual Dwarf Axe of Pure Good either for that matter, that weapon was better then Green Steel in my mind. Perhaps those insufferable souls stones were right, I was a gimp, but none of that mattered at this moment. I was about to become a god!

Kruz patted me on the back and assured me he had a box ready in the bank, with my name on it . He made it very clear that he would explain to the bankers what he had done and that would let me open this box, to retrieve my precious weapons, my axe and muck bane that has served me so well all these months and levels. I almost cried at his compassion for my equipment. I kissed my Dwarf axe good bye and told it I would see it next life - I promised it.

I hugged all my guild mates, and told them I would be back, trying to sound like the Terminator or something equality impressive, I was a dwarf after all, but in reality coming across like I was lost in the zone trying to find one of their dead bodies, a typical scenario for me the last, oh.. 19 levels of my life.

I clicked the accept button expecting fire to fall from the sky, or Kruz to kill me and burn my body right there, cutting my throat and.. it.. was... well.. Nothing Happened.

There I stood at the select screen, I jest you not, days I stood there with the Reincarnation logo next to my name, beckoning me. calling to me. bidding me to click it., but, I was just a man, and I was scared. Finally, after suffering with this new dimension looming over me for as long as I could withstand, my endurance wore thin and I clicked it.

Stumbling on to the shores of Korthos again, the taste of salt water in my mouth, seaweed in my hair, and the cold air hitting my skin in ways that painfully reminded me how much it sucked to be a wet naked dwarf again.

Jeets welcomed me in his customary fashion, asking if I was undead, and in many ways, I felt like a zombie, like I had done all this before and I was still not sure if enjoyed it the last time. But, I was a fighter now, bigger, (not really) and stronger, tougher then I ever could have hoped! I had no such place in my new life for such paltry concerns as fear and regret!

I take the axe he offers me and I blast though the tunnels to Korthos. Yes, Talbron indeed.. Onward to Glory!

After walking back into the village, I felt home again, alive again. a new life and rejuvenation filled me! I was indeed better then I had been. I move to the bar, and took a seat to relax from the cold and then Then in at a private table, with a slight caution, and shifty eyes, I looked upon my character sheet, and saw what I had given up 20 pride and pain filled levels for, what I had given up all my favor rewards for, what I have tossed to the way side a full set of +2 painfully earned tomes for, I was stronger, by an earth shattering 2 build points, and now possessed this unique and powerful feat, something called a "paladin past life feat" which amounted to a devastating 5% healing amp. I was so overcome by this, I fell to my knees in the living room, (Why i was now in the living room, do not ask) but I fell to my knees there, and with tears rolling down my eyes at what I had beheld - I cried to the gods and high heavens, "WHAT Was I thinking!?!?!?!?!?!!?!"

So. what was the point of all that. Well. we Give up quite a bit when we TR. We give up our levels, our stat increase, our Favor rewards, we pretty much start new, simply put, if Kruz can't put in a deposit box with our name on it, it's not surviving the process. I was not fully aware of what that entailed the first time or how much I was going to have to give up, so it was a shock to me.

I admit my second life I was played a bit lighter on the tomes, and did not worry about favor rewards as much, as I knew this was going to be a pass though life, and there would be more death and ash in my future. I ground the gear I was going to need for my next life and focused on that, in many ways that Belt of Proof Against Poison and That +1 Dwarf Axe with Force Ritual were as valuable to me as the Green Steel Dwarf axes I had just made. Both had a very important place in my new life and Kruz made it clear, he would keep them safe. The second time though I just clicked the Button and did not even bother to take off any of my gear. Stats gone, Tomes Gone, back to one bank slot, those greedy bankers making a fellow dwarf re-earn the same bank space. Can't they just record the name and give it to me? And you would think the Coin Lords would remember me. but nope. Gotta get that a new stupid portable hole again to get that extra backpack.

So while I respect that you are being disagreeable. I see no reason why it should be free, or even why they should remain.

In my condition, to keep the tome is akin to partaking in a separate ritual to keep something that does not fix in a box, which from a game play perspective, makes the most sense.

Ebuddy
08-23-2011, 06:43 PM
I would prefer this:

+1/+2 tomes are NOT retained

+3/+4 tomes ARE retained on each TR (at appropriate levels) ONCE you have eaten a +2 tome on the stat previously buffed

Ungood *might* fall out of his chair but this, in conjunction with some iteration of his suggestion would be OK with me.

Just OK though, I still wouldn't be happy about it. ;o)

Ungood
08-23-2011, 08:23 PM
Ungood *might* fall out of his chair but this, in conjunction with some iteration of his suggestion would be OK with me.

Just OK though, I still wouldn't be happy about it. ;o)

I could get behind this. In fact, have this as a perk of the store bought +2 Tomes, where they will, once used, restore any higher + tome you may have used.

I'll add it to the OP. Could be used a the Post TR back up plan that Cauthey proposed and how it could work.

:D

netops
08-26-2011, 03:47 AM
/signed

Dendrix
08-26-2011, 04:58 AM
/NO NO NONONOONONONONONONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Once again one of our top 3 easy buttons gets another thread. That horse has left the barn, been tracked, set upon and beaten to death, then raised up as a skeletal horse and beaten to undeath.

When you TR you die. You lose your tome bonus. Deal with it. You also lose XP and favor. This is how the game works and it does not neetd to be changed.

Should you also lose all your other raid loot, except the tomes?

Voldomar
08-26-2011, 05:22 AM
Should you also lose all your other raid loot, except the tomes?

And crafting xp....
Those who keep saying "when you die you loose your bonus, xp and favor. Deal with it" seems to conveniently forget that part.

2 years of play and I've found 2 +4 tomes. And yet there are people who scream "easy button"... +4 tomes don't grow on trees, and yes i'm a bad person cause i want to keep them like any other raid loot.

Skavenaps
08-26-2011, 05:28 AM
so pay to win?

/no signed

TR or be better on your actually live. choice is your.

Ungood
08-30-2011, 05:02 PM
so pay to win?

I hear this quite a bit, this catchphrase "Pay to win" however, I often wonder how aptly it applies to games like DDO or others of it's liking. Since there is not proverbial winner in a Game Like DDO in the sense like there is a winner in a game of chess per-say. So the Term "Pay to Win" cannot be applied in the sense of actually "Winning" the game.

So what does this term apply to then? At best I can figure out, when the term "Pay to Win", is used in a game like DDO, or it's liken, it is referring more aptly to "Paying for Convenience" in that vein, since it is surmised that it is possible to play and grind up all packs and account options by simply playing the game, albeit, it would be tedious, time consuming, and take lots of patience to wait for the right deals, it is feasible none the less.

So, in that regard, any time anyone buys a pack, pays their VIP sub, or in any other way purchases any part of the game, they are in effect "Paying to Win", and it is a well accepted fact of life in the real world that for a game like DDO to survive (and thus allow us a game to play) there needs to be some level of this "Paying to Win" taking place on a constant basis, or else, simply put, we won't have a game at all.

Since the Pay to Win, is integral in this regard to the game's survival, much less thriving to the point that they can allow some to afford to solely "play to win", in this regard, I believe in two logical sound conclusions in regards to the way Micro Transactions should work within this game/business construct:


"Those that want this should be the ones that pay for it"

"If I am going to Pay to Win, I'd like to have a choice on what I win. thank you very much"


Thank you for your input and feed back.

ElbionTcob
09-07-2011, 11:39 PM
/singed all the way

or at least let tr's read tomes at lvl 1
although thats basically the same thing

likuei
09-19-2011, 09:02 AM
/not signed Tomes should not move over when you TR

drobbins
09-19-2011, 12:51 PM
/not signed

I would rather there be no more easy buttons applied to TRing ...

Indoran
09-23-2011, 11:46 AM
I have been against keeping tomes on tr until now... what made me change my mind? a new class came and ruined the work of all the completionist who were happily living their last life...

They have invested too much time and maybe eaten a +3 or +4 tome in their final life...

+2s are nothing... but a +3 or way more a +4... that's priceless....

If they are going to keep tomes, they should do it for free.

Tomes of binding are an insult. and a bad marketting idea (It certainly detracts from the affinity of different types of players, making money hurting the brand its not making money).

Instead I prefer this:


I would prefer this:

+1/+2 tomes are NOT retained

+3/+4 tomes ARE retained on each TR (at appropriate levels) ONCE you have eaten a +2 tome on the stat previously buffed

Krago
09-23-2011, 12:10 PM
This idea is like buying raid loot from the store and this not what we want. The Devs do listen.

- We wanted Elite/Epic to fell like it and the difficulties have been improved.
- We wanted our TR experience to feel less grindy, now we have all the XP bonuses
- We wanted crafting and now can make whatever we dreamed.

This is not a path we as a community should want to head down. Tomes are raid loot yes, but a consumable item.

Completionist folk knew what they were getting into as it has long been known that new classes would be introduced even before the feat was added.

TRind should be a tradeoff, not just another rung up the "I win" button. TR you gain PL feats but lose out on any consumables used, a fair balance.

Phidius
09-23-2011, 12:15 PM
...
TRind should be a tradeoff, not just another rung up the "I win" button. TR you gain PL feats but lose out on any consumables used, a fair balance.

A trade off that sabotages hard-to-get loot isn't a good trade off.

How does this trade off make the game better to have +3/+4 tomes rotting in a bank vault somewhere? How would you feel if you lost the roll on a +4 Str tome only to hear the winner say "This will look great in my bank next to the +4 Con tome!"?

That kind of behavior is what the existing mechanic encourages.

Krago
09-23-2011, 12:29 PM
A trade off that sabotages hard-to-get loot isn't a good trade off.

How does this trade off make the game better to have +3/+4 tomes rotting in a bank vault somewhere? How would you feel if you lost the roll on a +4 Str tome only to hear the winner say "This will look great in my bank next to the +4 Con tome!"?

That kind of behavior is what the existing mechanic encourages.

Making people choose to TR or eat a +4 tome isnt a good trade off? You gain the +4 stat or TR and gain PL feats, stackable upto 3 times.

+3 to DCs is like a +6 tome at lvl 1.
+3 Damage is like a +6 tome at lvl 1.

Quite a fair tradeoff.

B0ltdrag0n
09-23-2011, 12:36 PM
I would be ok with a: When you TR you get a tome = your inherent bonus to your stat placed in your tr cache.

I.e. if you tr and ate a +3 tome. A copy of it will be in your TR cache ready for you when you get to that level.

Same with +2's or +1's

This means that you still have to farm and grind for those lower tomes to tide you over till you get the one you want back...or just wait it out.


Seems pretty fair to me.

Phidius
09-23-2011, 12:45 PM
Making people choose to TR or eat a +4 tome isnt a good trade off? You gain the +4 stat or TR and gain PL feats, stackable upto 3 times.

+3 to DCs is like a +6 tome at lvl 1.
+3 Damage is like a +6 tome at lvl 1.

Quite a fair tradeoff.

If the game was static, I would agree with you. Sure, get 3 PL in every class that's important to you, then eat your tomes (which have been "rotting in the bank", let's not forget that).

However, with Turbine constantly changing things in order to keep the game fun, saying "I'll never TR" isn't a wise decision.

You didn't answer my question about how encouraging people to keep their tomes in the bank is good for the game, but I'll ask another question anyway.

How does the current mechanic help to retain subscriptions or increase sales in the DDO Store?

Ungood
09-23-2011, 03:29 PM
How does this trade off make the game better to have +3/+4 tomes rotting in a bank vault somewhere? How would you feel if you lost the roll on a +4 Str tome only to hear the winner say "This will look great in my bank next to the +4 Con tome!"?

That kind of behavior is what the existing mechanic encourages.

I would say at this point, there is no game mechanic that encourages someone to roll on (or loot), something they have no intention of actually using. That is purely the product of the gamer, not the game.

Phidius
09-23-2011, 03:33 PM
I would say at this point, there is no game mechanic that encourages someone to roll on (or loot), something they have no intention of actually using. That is purely the product of the gamer, not the game.

As it is now, I want 2 of each +3 tome... one to use on this life, and one to store for the next.

If I only have one, and a 2nd drops and is put up for roll, I'll roll for it.

After they change the rules so that +3's stay through a TR, I won't roll for it.

Same gamer, different game mechanic.

Krago
09-23-2011, 03:44 PM
As it is now, I want 2 of each +3 tome... one to use on this life, and one to store for the next.

If I only have one, and a 2nd drops and is put up for roll, I'll roll for it.

After they change the rules so that +3's stay through a TR, I won't roll for it.

Same gamer, different game mechanic.

The game mechanic prevents power creep, to a degree. If you have to get new tomes every life it keeps them in demand. If you only have to get 1 and your done, it allows more people to get +3 tomes. Which could lead us to complain that the game is too easy and they roll out U11.

And to answer your question, if Turbine wanted to make a buck, they could sell those valuable +3, +4 tomes in the store like they do for TRs. But then they are selling raid loot on the store and a whole other thread would need to be started for that discussion.

Ungood
09-23-2011, 03:47 PM
As it is now, I want 2 of each +3 tome... one to use on this life, and one to store for the next.

That would be to use. Which has nothing to do with your first scenario. So I'll say it again. There is no mechanic in any game, that inspires players to roll for (or loot) something they will not use.

That is an issue with the player, not the game.

If you are rolling on loot for your next life, and willing to take the time each life to acquire a full set of tomes for the following life, that will undoubtedly extend your play time, and thus keep you playing.

Ideally, keeping players playing, will get them to spend money. Thus., keeping the grind continuous is profitable to MMO's like DDO, Actually, highly profitable to game like DDO with Micro-transactions, as players will want to take advantage of Sales, or keep their subs up, etc, etc. This for the most part, money comes as players keep playing.

Now. With that I proposed, which is not buying raid loot, it is Buying a means to Re-Use a consumable, it becomes profitable to turbine in both directions. Which will give them more money to spend on bug fixes and creating new content, which is something we all want as well. So players get to keep their precious tomes, Bugs can get worked on, Content gets made, and everyone is happy.

Thus: Everyone wins.

Soleran
09-23-2011, 04:18 PM
The game mechanic prevents power creep, to a degree. If you have to get new tomes every life it keeps them in demand. If you only have to get 1 and your done, it allows more people to get +3 tomes. Which could lead us to complain that the game is too easy and they roll out U11.

And to answer your question, if Turbine wanted to make a buck, they could sell those valuable +3, +4 tomes in the store like they do for TRs. But then they are selling raid loot on the store and a whole other thread would need to be started for that discussion.


I would be willing to wager that most people earn their +3/+4 tomes with the completion of 20 raids and +4 only after 20 tods. So 2 months to have a realistic chance at earning a +3/+4 tome.

That's alot of commitment for a marginal gain that realistically has a minimal impact, it is however a reward that should be kept on TR's.

I like the idea of a special heart that allows you to keep the tomes or something along those lines.

Krago
09-23-2011, 04:21 PM
That would be to use. Which has nothing to do with your first scenario. So I'll say it again. There is no mechanic in any game, that inspires players to roll for (or loot) something they will not use.

That is an issue with the player, not the game.

If you are rolling on loot for your next life, and willing to take the time each life to acquire a full set of tomes for the following life, that will undoubtedly extend your play time, and thus keep you playing.

Ideally, keeping players playing, will get them to spend money. Thus., keeping the grind continuous is profitable to MMO's like DDO, Actually, highly profitable to game like DDO with Micro-transactions, as players will want to take advantage of Sales, or keep their subs up, etc, etc. This for the most part, money comes as players keep playing.

Now. With that I proposed, which is not buying raid loot, it is Buying a means to Re-Use a consumable, it becomes profitable to turbine in both directions. Which will give them more money to spend on bug fixes and creating new content, which is something we all want as well. So players get to keep their precious tomes, Bugs can get worked on, Content gets made, and everyone is happy.

Thus: Everyone wins.

It depends upon the mindset of the playerbase. Once they get their complete set of +4 tomes, no need to run raids for 20 completions to get a chance at the +4 tome. Playing less, purchasing fewer resources, playing the game less because there is no need to run content if there is no gain.

The benefit is if the playerbase continually TRs their characters and would have to buy this "Binding Tome" on every TR. As described, it also appears to be a one-time purchase.

Speaking for myself, I only plan to TR one toon twice so I can hold onto those +4 tomes, so I would not help be helping Turbine make money.

Krago
09-23-2011, 04:27 PM
I would be willing to wager that most people earn their +3/+4 tomes with the completion of 20 raids and +4 only after 20 tods. So 2 months to have a realistic chance at earning a +3/+4 tome.

That's alot of commitment for a marginal gain that realistically has a minimal impact, it is however a reward that should be kept on TR's.

I like the idea of a special heart that allows you to keep the tomes or something along those lines.

For as many people that want to keep the +4 tomes, it can hardly be considered minimal impact. +2 to DCs that stacks with everything can only be done with tomes and PLs which most guys go after.

Now realistically, it just kept said player running content for 2 months for the item. If he already had the item, what would the player be doing?

Phidius
09-23-2011, 04:30 PM
The game mechanic prevents power creep, to a degree. If you have to get new tomes every life it keeps them in demand. If you only have to get 1 and your done, it allows more people to get +3 tomes. Which could lead us to complain that the game is too easy and they roll out U11.
...


It depends upon the mindset of the playerbase. Once they get their complete set of +4 tomes, no need to run raids for 20 completions to get a chance at the +4 tome. Playing less, purchasing fewer resources, playing the game less because there is no need to run content if there is no gain.
...


...
Now realistically, it just kept said player running content for 2 months for the item. If he already had the item, what would the player be doing?

Interestingly enough, this applies to raid loot too, not just tomes. Would it be safe to presume that everyone who wants tomes to disappear on a TR also wants all raid gear (actually, anything bound to character) to disappear too?

Krago
09-23-2011, 04:35 PM
Interestingly enough, this applies to raid loot too, not just tomes. Would it be safe to presume that everyone who wants tomes to disappear on a TR also wants all raid gear (actually, anything bound to character) to disappear too?

It would make the decision that much more crucial if you wanted to TR. I think Turbine would have to make the incetive greater if you had to lose all your BtC if you chose to TR. Maybe a continual addition of +2 stats on character creation.

The big difference between tomes and items, is that tomes are a permanent addition where your items can be un-equipped.

If you are asking me personally, I would not TR if I had to lose my BtC items, or any of my items because the incentive is not strong enough.

Phidius
09-23-2011, 04:35 PM
That would be to use. Which has nothing to do with your first scenario. So I'll say it again. There is no mechanic in any game, that inspires players to roll for (or loot) something they will not use.
...

You and I don't share the same definition of "use". To me, putting a +3 tome into the bank "just in case" is not using it.

Soleran
09-23-2011, 04:36 PM
For as many people that want to keep the +4 tomes, it can hardly be considered minimal impact. +2 to DCs that stacks with everything can only be done with tomes and PLs which most guys go after.

Now realistically, it just kept said player running content for 2 months for the item. If he already had the item, what would the player be doing?

Have you ever picked up a plus 4 tome and if you have how long did it take you?

Plus 4 tomes would only give a plus 1 dc advantage over someone with plus 2 tomes, that is negligible especially considering the person that would have a plus 4 tome has probably camped and raided so many times they have 90% of raid items associated with that toon/build.

I also have to add completing said raids for 2 months doesn't guarantee you a +3 tome you need or want and you can only get +4 tomes from completing 20 tods or the SUPER elusive drop from a hard or elite and that also doesn't guarantee that you get the tome you want.

Being able to keep the tomes on a TR should be made available considering how rare and valuable they are. DDO can absolutely gain by providing an option that we can buy when we TR to make that available. Everyone wins that way.

Siro
09-23-2011, 04:38 PM
It depends upon the mindset of the playerbase. Once they get their complete set of +4 tomes, no need to run raids for 20 completions to get a chance at the +4 tome. Playing less, purchasing fewer resources, playing the game less because there is no need to run content if there is no gain.

The benefit is if the playerbase continually TRs their characters and would have to buy this "Binding Tome" on every TR. As described, it also appears to be a one-time purchase.

Speaking for myself, I only plan to TR one toon twice so I can hold onto those +4 tomes, so I would not help be helping Turbine make money.

Empowered True Druidic Heart of Wood:
As Trude Druidic Heart of Wood, but the magical essence of your past life's permanent augmentations is applied to your new body. Inherent bonuses of previously consumed tomes become available at requisite levels.

There. You can now keep your tomes, but you'll need to either buy or earn the new TRing item. TRing at a later date with the regular True druidic heart of wood will still cause you to lose your tomes. That being said, it could be a LOT of Turbine Points and require 20+ epic raid tokens or something like that. Adding such an item doesn't necessarily reduce the grind.

Krago
09-23-2011, 04:38 PM
Have you ever picked up a plus 4 tome and if you have how long did it take you?

Plus 4 tomes would only give a plus 1 dc advantage over someone with plus 2 tomes, that is negligible especially considering the person that would have a plus 4 tome has probably camped and raided so many times they have 90% of raid items associated with that toon/build.

I also have to add completing said raids for 2 months doesn't guarantee you a +3 tome you need or want and you can only get +4 tomes from completing 20 tods or the SUPER elusive drop from a hard or elite and that also doesn't guarantee that you get the tome you want.

Being able to keep the tomes on a TR should be made available considering how rare and valuable they are. DDO can absolutely gain by providing an option that we can buy when we TR to make that available. Everyone wins that way.

Exactly true. What would be the incentive to run 20 ToDs anymore if you already had what you wanted?

Soleran
09-23-2011, 04:44 PM
Exactly true. What would be the incentive to run 20 ToDs anymore if you already had what you wanted?

I think that's the point already, if someone has run all the raids and gotten the gear what is the incentive to keep raiding if they can't progressively make their toon better from what they have already gotten since the raid has nothing left to offer. Allowing people to keep their +4 and +3 tomes at least rewards them for their patience and success.

I can assure you unless you are super lucky or in a guild that passes loot alot you more then likely will not get all your gear from ToD in 20 runs and a plus 4 tome that would actually benefit your build.

Have you gotten +4 tomes before?

Have you gotten +3 tomes before?

If so how did you acquire them?

Phidius
09-23-2011, 04:49 PM
Exactly true. What would be the incentive to run 20 ToDs anymore if you already had what you wanted?

Why would you want to run the same raid over and over and over and over and over and never feel like you are "done" with it?

This whole concept of grind is counterproductive to the biggest strength of DDO - diversity in character building.

Don't need anything from ToD anymore? Roll a different toon who does!

rjbutchko
09-23-2011, 05:03 PM
I dont know if it was suggested anywhere else (including this thread. Admittedly, I didn't read the entire thing) but if keeping a tome's effect were to pass from life to life it should ONLY be a feature of the completionist feat so that when new classes are introduced it won't penalize a completionist who now needs to TR at least two more times. Well, maybe only once if the new class is something that the player decides to end on, but you get the idea.

Ungood
09-23-2011, 05:08 PM
Being able to keep the tomes on a TR should be made available considering how rare and valuable they are. DDO can absolutely gain by providing an option that we can buy when we TR to make that available. Everyone wins that way.

I agree. I firmly believe that players should be given this choice. With this plan. not everyone has to partake in it either. If you feel that it would make the game too easy for you, you can opt out. Which is why I do not believe it should be free or a mechanic thrust upon the players. Let the people be given a choice, and let their actions speak.

By doing this way. no one is imposed upon, and everyone wins.

Krago
09-24-2011, 08:58 AM
I agree. I firmly believe that players should be given this choice. With this plan. not everyone has to partake in it either. If you feel that it would make the game too easy for you, you can opt out. Which is why I do not believe it should be free or a mechanic thrust upon the players. Let the people be given a choice, and let their actions speak.

By doing this way. no one is imposed upon, and everyone wins.

We are both making assumptions here.

Mine is that players will run exising content less and therefore play less. Playing less, spending fewer points.

Your assumption is that people will TR more if they can keep their tomes through the process.

I would love being able to keep my tomes but in the long run I think its not the best incentive to have players spend points as it out weights the risk of content being run less.

Its apparent that they want the players to re-run content to keep us playing. With all the new items that can be upgraded by acquiring materials they need us to "re-use" the content to keep it viable.

To convince me that its in Turbine's best interest to grant us what appears to be a selfish request, that players would continue to run content after they have their needs fulfilled.

@Soleran
I had 3 +3 tomes before I TRed and 1 +4 banked (because it was not what I needed) and yes, I got 2 of +3 tomes from 20 completions, and +4 from 20 ToDs.

Ungood
09-24-2011, 03:44 PM
We are both making assumptions here.

Mine is that players will run exising content less and therefore play less. Playing less, spending fewer points.

Your assumption is that people will TR more if they can keep their tomes through the process.

You wrong me sir. I made no such assumption or prediction. My idea for these tomes is for the people that plan to TR, anyway. I hold no stand on if this will increase or decrease the rate by which people will TR or if anyone will buy a single other thing from the DDO store to do so.

Simply Put. People Do TR their Toons, and they want to keep their precious Tomes in the process. As such, since no other assumptions are to be made, Applying a nominal fee to a player to re-use a consumable for the purpose to be able to maintain a stat boost post-TR, seems like a viable means to ensure a sale for this product.


I would love being able to keep my tomes but in the long run I think its not the best incentive to have players spend points as it out weights the risk of content being run less.

Its apparent that they want the players to re-run content to keep us playing. With all the new items that can be upgraded by acquiring materials they need us to "re-use" the content to keep it viable.

To convince me that its in Turbine's best interest to grant us what appears to be a selfish request, that players would continue to run content after they have their needs fulfilled.I have obtained several +3 tomes, in my questing time, and they were obtained while running the quest for other items (IE: +3 tomes for 20 Shrouds, Etc). Now. From what I understand, a +4 tome is a very rare drop, ergo, I doubt that getting a full set of +4 will be something anyone will accomplish any time soon. As such, just the sheer grind of the game to obtain these tomes will keep players.. well.. playing.

I however, foresee that making it so they can keep the tomes upon TRing will inspire more players to quest after these rare high end tomes and thus sink time into the game, even if they plan to TR a few times in the future. But that would be pure speculation on my part.

Phidius
09-24-2011, 04:00 PM
We are both making assumptions here.

Mine is that players will run exising content less and therefore play less. Playing less, spending fewer points.
...

Actually, I spend fewer points when I run existing content more. I only pay to run a pack once - if I am kept busy running VoD + HoX + Reaver + ToD over and over looking for more +3/+4 tomes, I don't have time to run new content.

No need to run new content = spending fewer points on things like adventure packs and pots.

I don't think it's in Turbine's best interests to have people running the same content over and over. That was true back in 2008, but it isn't true today.

Turbine has taken steps to reduce the grind in the game, at the same time that they introduce new grind. If I had to guess at the reason I'd say that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing.

DevilIncarnate
09-24-2011, 04:56 PM
I however, foresee that making it so they can keep the tomes upon TRing will inspire more players to quest after these rare high end tomes and thus sink time into the game, even if they plan to TR a few times in the future. But that would be pure speculation on my part.

I can say for myself, that is definitely true. I would care much more about trying to hit +3/+4 tomes on my toons if I knew they wouldn't be wasted on next tr/next big nerf that forces me to tr or so. The way it is now, game changes too much and the fact they'll just go to waste on my next life makes the grind for one(s) I want simply pointless

Beethoven
09-24-2011, 05:38 PM
Mine is that players will run exising content less and therefore play less

From own experience and that of people I run ToD with a lot, chances of getting a +4 tome seems to be somewhere around 30%. And even if a Tome drops, there are 8 attributes. So, a 1 in 3 chance to get a tome and a 1 in 8 to get a specific tome ... do the math. I don't think people who have a full set of +4 tomes are a significant number or ever will be.

However, I know a number of people who do not TR specific toons because they already ate several +3 tomes and/or the occasional +4. I really don't see it change a lot, currently people simply plan ahead more and make sure they have done all the TRs they want on a specific toon before eating +3/+4 toons. They get to keep tomes used upon TR, they simply would not need to plan ahead and be as careful about using the tomes they pull.

Requiro
09-25-2011, 12:57 PM
/Not signed to OP suggestion but:


<snip>

In PnP the tomes don't disappear after use, they just become no longer of further benefit to the character who read them, since they already have the bonus.

/signed to that proposal.

Let's ask yourself: When you read good book - do you eat it after? :p

Simple solution: Let Tomes become BtC after use.

Easy button? Maybe
More logical? Definitely!
More fun with TR? Yep!

There are other ways to made game more challenging. Destroying Toms after use is not one of them.

Ungood
09-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Let's ask yourself: When you read good book - do you eat it after? :p

Simple solution: Let Tomes become BtC after use.

Easy button? Maybe
More logical? Definitely!
More fun with TR? Yep!

There are other ways to made game more challenging. Destroying Toms after use is not one of them.

Tomes are consumed like Scrolls, Wands, Healing Rods, Bells of Opening, Anti-Beholder Crystals, Scarabs of Protection, Etc, Etc, All of which are used up upon use none of which are actually eaten.

In fact, a Tome is very complex scroll, nothing more then that in actuality. Ergo, once read, all you are left with is a blank book. I suppose, a blank book, to put in a bank vault might make for a wonderful brag item, perhaps a trophy to show your friends that you actually had a +4 tome,or that you used one.

However, I do not think many would enjoy wasted bank space. Which is precisely what the current problem is, the fact that higher level tomes are nothing more then bank space.

Now, to be fair, currently, we no longer "eat" the times, we read them, new animation and everything, But the end result is still the same. Once read, the player is left with either a non-magic book or they simply throw the book away (Thrown in the trash perhaps?) since this exactly like any other used item. Consumed in the sense a scroll or wand is consumed. I suppose we might feel a little silly to keep the wooden stick after all the charges are used up, or keep a pile of parchments after we used the scroll ergo, No motive to keep a book after all the magic was drained from it.

As such, to re-power this magical item, it should cost something, Either Epic tokens (Which was listed) or TP, either case, an investment would need to be put forth by the player to re-charge their tome, or put another way, to restore a consumed (used up) item so that they can re-use it.

Which makes the most sense, really.

However, Keeping a non-magical book? I suppose, maybe as a brag item. Might be an idea, but I hope you understand if it is not something I am going to ask the developers to waste time on. But if it means that much to you, I'll add it to the OP. Let me know.

Krago
09-25-2011, 03:22 PM
You wrong me sir. I made no such assumption or prediction. My idea for these tomes is for the people that plan to TR, anyway. I hold no stand on if this will increase or decrease the rate by which people will TR or if anyone will buy a single other thing from the DDO store to do so.

. . .

The assumption has to be inherent to your system. If this "binding tome" is a one-shot deal where you buy it once and your tomes remain through infinite TRs, its not beneficial to Turbine, like a permanent XP pot.

Its best if you had to buy said tome every time you TR if you wish to keep your inhenrent bonuses which will be great for Turbine if people TR more.

In the end, all we both have is speculation. I only run Hox, VoD, ToD etc for the tomes. +4 tomes can only become less rare in this scenario as more people get them which I think is a detriment to the long term.

Soleran
09-25-2011, 03:53 PM
In the end, all we both have is speculation. I only run Hox, VoD, ToD etc for the tomes. +4 tomes can only become less rare in this scenario as more people get them which I think is a detriment to the long term.


I've run ToD probably over 100 times now with different toons and only seen 2 +4 tomes drop in the quest.

I doubt if +4 tomes are going to be to the detriment of the game they don't drop frequently enough and even if they drop there is no guarantee you are going to get the one you want or need.

Turbine should just allow people to TR and keep their tomes with something from the DDO store.

Indoran
09-25-2011, 04:17 PM
I've run ToD probably over 100 times now with different toons and only seen 2 +4 tomes drop in the quest.

I doubt if +4 tomes are going to be to the detriment of the game they don't drop frequently enough and even if they drop there is no guarantee you are going to get the one you want or need.

Turbine should just allow people to TR and keep their tomes with something from the DDO store.

+4 tomes have nothing to do with the store... seriously... and they are RARE

I have 2 +4 tomes in 2 different toons... It was hell to get them and I cant imagine eating them... just let me be happy and keep them on tr... believe me I worked hard for them... getting me to buy something from the store like that feels like treason to the client...

Soleran
09-25-2011, 04:22 PM
+4 tomes have nothing to do with the store... seriously... and they are RARE

I have 2 +4 tomes in 2 different toons... It was hell to get them and I cant imagine eating them... just let me be happy and keep them on tr... believe me I worked hard for them... getting me to buy something from the store like that feels like treason to the client...

Well even if we don't have to use something from the store I would like to see them stay with TR's.

Hands down out of all my loot, getting my 2 +4 tomes were harder then any of my epic gear or tod sets, ymmv.

Ungood
09-25-2011, 05:52 PM
The assumption has to be inherent to your system. If this "binding tome" is a one-shot deal where you buy it once and your tomes remain through infinite TRs, its not beneficial to Turbine, like a permanent XP pot.

I never said it was a one shot deal. In fact, one of the ideas was simply if a TR ate a Store Bought tome, it would restore any previous tomes used which would be an each TR type of deal. There were several Ideas in the OP.

Only a few of the ideas presented were mine personally but any of them IMHO still better then none of them. Which is where we are at now.


Its best if you had to buy said tome every time you TR if you wish to keep your inhenrent bonuses which will be great for Turbine if people TR more.

I have no issues with this