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View Full Version : The fortification paradigm and the combat defense.



joaofalcao
07-27-2011, 07:10 PM
I ve came across recently over this puzzling concept that is fortification. What is it? Is the ability to negate critical hits on your character. And by that, it means how fortified you are against the nastiest blows from your enemies weapons.

Now, how come the robe wearing wizard has the same sort of protection that the shield wearing, full plate donned dwarf?

It doesnt make sense. Fortification should be tied to your armor. How sturdy you are against your enemies blows should be determined by the protection you armor has to offer you. An item like a bracer could offer some sort of protection against you enemies blows, sure you can point that. But it cannot offer the same sort of fortification that a full plate can offer.


And the idea/suggestion that occurs to me is? Tie fortification to armor types. The sturdiest your armor, the best protected you are against your enemies criticals.

How to acchieve that? I came up With a system.

Total Fortification = Bonus Item Reinforced Fortification + Armor Fortification.

What we know as fortification would change.

Light Fortification(25%) would turn into Slight Reinforced Fortification (10%)
Moderate Fortification(75%) would turn into Medium Reinforced Fortification (25%)
Heavy Fortification(100%) would turn into Strongly Reinforced Fortification (50%)

And the armors would have fortification of their own:

Robes - 0% fortification

Light Armor:
Padded Armor - 5% fortification
Leather Armor - 10% fortification
Studded Leather Armor - 15% fortification
Chain Skirt - 20% fortification

Medium Armor:
Hide Armor - 20% fortification
Scale Mail - 25% fortification
Chain Mail - 30% fortification
Brigantine - 25% fortification
Breastplate - 25% fortification

Heavy Armor:
Splint Mail - 40% fortification
Banded Mail - 35% fortification
Half Plate - 40% fortification
Full Plate - 40% fortification

Shields:
Light Shield: 5% Fortification
Heavy Shield: 10% Fortification
Tower Shield: 15% Fortification

Warforged: 20% bonus fortification + chosen plating: Theyre made of metal, after all.

Spells:
Barkskin: 1% Fortification
Stoneskin: 7% Fortification

So, with this new system, I would like to point out a few examples of classes and fortification. Those examples are simple and based on class features, just to give a feeling of what fortification would be like:

Wizard: Strongly Reinforced item = 50% fortification
Battlewizard: Strongly Reinforced item + Heavy Shield + Chain Mail = 90% fortification
Favored Soul: Strongly Reinforced item + Heavy Shield + Scale Mail = 85% fortification
Battlecleric: Strongly Reinforced item + Heavy Shield + Heavy Plate = 100% fortification
Greatsword Fighter: Strongly Reinforced item + Heavy Plate = 90% fortification
Barbarian: Strongly Reinforced item + Chain Mail = 80% fortification
Monk: Strongly Reinforced item + Robe + bonus from stance = 50% + stance based fortification
Warforged Juggernaut: Strongly Reinforced item + Warforged Bonus + Heavy Plating = 110% fortification
Paladin Dwarven Defender: Strongly Reinforced item + Tower Shield + Heavy Plate + Some paladin/dwarven fortification bonus = 115% fortification

What this system proposes as a whole:
- Fortification starts to make sense.
- High offensive caracters need to concern more about tactics and defenses. Maybe concern more about AC to avoid dying.
- Wearing heavy armor makes sense now at end gaming and is the best way to avoid being destroyed.
- High AC characters, DEX or WIS based are still hard to hit due to their awareness, but still can be damaged preety high.
- More DPS and more HP may be not everything. Balanced characters start to be more important than min-maxing.

What this system does not covers:
- A full scale coverage on the defense part of DDO combat system and the AC mechanic.

What else Could I add to this system:
- Piercing or Blunting damage weapons can damage fortification somehow and rogues and archers get a raise to their DPS.
- Enemies could have their fortification changed based on their equipment
- To hit Bonuses from trash changed overall so that the reach-able AC that most classes have would mean anything.
- Base armor AC could raise so that a meaninfull AC on a balanced character could be reached.

Conclusion
These are my first toughts on fortification. Its based on logic more than numbers. You may agree or disagree on the numbers or class/equipment. But regardless of anybodys opinion, let me adress my opinion that a game where defense means nothing and damage and HP means everything is a broken system. Defense is part of every fight and every fighter should be concerned about its defenses.

I am all for an overall COMBAT PASS that makes DDO combat more meaninfull in the aspects of combat defenses.

Now I gotta go do some chores, sorry if I cannot prolong myself.

Whats your toughts DDO community? This fortification paradigm makes sense? Shouldnt an adventurer defend itself and fight with tatics?

The_Brave2
07-27-2011, 07:17 PM
Not a bad idea, but I think the idea of Fortification is that it is a magical protection.

Not to mention to give the lowest Hit Dice class bad Fortification is a bad idea :D

Plus, all caster based armors are Robes, so you are automatically getting bad fort because of how DDO makes items.

The answer to all of this obviously being to be WF or a Palemaster, which i guess is already happening, but it would completly obliterate any fleshie AM's out there, not to mention Sorc's.

It would be nice to actually have a WF (fighter/barb/paladin/monk) tank again instead of tanking it on my wiz, but having a shield, + WF + heavy fort item would still give me 100% fort by your calc i suppose, and i would still have 100% fort.

Baisicly this would hurt newer players and bairly touch experienced players, since most casters have a shield for when they want SP back or for tanking. It would be interesting to see Sword and board builds focused around this for mele, but with the current combat system... they just cant keep aggro.

thakorian
07-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Several problems here.

1st of all, the description of Heavy Fortification:

"This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that greatly increases protection of vital areas. In most circumstances, when a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a 100% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is rolled normally."

Fortification is not dependent on the natural attributes of any items, its magical in nature. While I might be inclined to agree that fortification isn't all that it could be (get 100% or gimp), "improving" it by simply taking away 50% from the enhancements altogether and replacing that loss with hardwired fort values for different armor types is simply a bad idea. Generally classes who do not wear medium/heavy armor nor don shields tend to have lower hit dice and lowering the only way they gain fort by 50% could end up in a lot of instakills. Also, this would make A LOT of items obsolete since 100% is the goal, so your suggestion would imply that a massive overhaul of items and other stats would have to take place as well.

The problem here is the inherent problem with AC not being viable at later levels, which pretty much means people who build for end game rarely take it into account. This has been discussed before, so I'd rather not go into this in much depth, but to just say this: Upping base AC is not the solution.

HelvanderSeries6
07-27-2011, 07:46 PM
A truly well though out system for fortification but it may be more suited for a game that is only loosely based on the d20 system given the fact that this system uses a magical defense in this regard.

phalaeo
07-27-2011, 07:46 PM
I see how you are thinking here, but there are a few problems with your suggestions. The idea that it is "magical" not physical protection has been addressed. What I'm sure others will chime in on more eloquently is that although we all know that DDO /= DnD, this game is based on DnD rulesets. It would be unlikely to change for several reasons.

First, it would significantly change the game both from the gameplay standpoint as well as coding needed. Second, I do believe that Turbine is held to certain standards by Wizards of the Coast- whether fort rules are part of that agreement is anyone's guess, but it's been brought up before by individuals more knowledgable than I as reasoning when discussing the possibility of certain changes.

BitkaCK2
07-27-2011, 08:52 PM
But... but... wait a minute... a necklace (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Nightforge_Gorget) with 100% fortification?!? A necklace. Does not compute. Does not compute.

Bert, help here buddy. Bert? Bert?
http://troll.me/images/bert/xmind-blown-thumb.jpg.pagespeed.ic.CG3OiDJhGL.jpg

bitkaCK2

ExK444
07-27-2011, 08:56 PM
But... but... wait a minute... a necklace (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Nightforge_Gorget) with 100% fortification?!? A necklace. Does not compute. Does not compute.

Bert, help here buddy. Bert? Bert?
http://troll.me/images/bert/xmind-blown-thumb.jpg.pagespeed.ic.CG3OiDJhGL.jpg

bitkaCK2

Magic. ;)

Talias006
07-27-2011, 10:05 PM
Chain Skirt - 20% fortification

I read the whole spiel, and it's very nicely put together. But as many have said, it's not an inherent property, it's a magical property. It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but it could use some touch-ups to make it more feasible.

One thing really stands out for me, and I know this is just a minute point, but Chain Skirts? I do hope you meant Shirts, because the chain skirts sound like they'd chafe legs a bit.


But... but... wait a minute... a necklace (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Item:Nightforge_Gorget) with 100% fortification?!? A necklace. Does not compute. Does not compute.

Bert, help here buddy. Bert? Bert?
http://troll.me/images/bert/xmind-blown-thumb.jpg.pagespeed.ic.CG3OiDJhGL.jpg

bitkaCK2

Priceless! +1 for you...

Rumbaar
07-27-2011, 10:13 PM
What about the Helm with 100% Fort?

But like has been said, it's magical, not physical.

Rauven
07-28-2011, 01:29 AM
Aside from the whole "it's magical not physical" argument, why wouldn't a high dexterity add to your fort? Having the dexterity to move yourself in such a way as to absorb incoming blows or to move with the attack so as to prevent a vital strike but not prevent the strike itself would certainly lend itself to preventing critical damage from an attack.

Dex bonus to ac basically means I can move so you can't hit me. A dex bonus to fort (in this type of system) would mean I can't prevent you from always hitting me but I can prevent you from hitting me where it really counts.

suszterpatt
07-28-2011, 08:08 AM
Now, how come the robe wearing wizard has the same sort of protection that the shield wearing, full plate donned dwarf?
Magic.

Truga
07-28-2011, 08:10 AM
Magic.

This. Fortification is a magic property.

"This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally."

Chance of course depending on fortification level. Light = 25, moderate = 75, heavy = 100%.

Talon_Moonshadow
07-28-2011, 09:41 AM
In the real world, if a Dragon breathes fire on you, then flies down and eats you....no amount of good armor is going to keep you alive! :rolleyes:

suszterpatt
07-28-2011, 04:19 PM
In the real world, if a Dragon breathes fire on you, then flies down and eats you....no amount of good armor is going to keep you alive! :rolleyes:
In the real world, there's no such thing as dragons.

MrWizard
07-28-2011, 04:33 PM
we would all die without 100% fort...lol
as evidenced by those that do not wear it.

I cannot imagine those that do epic facing mobs with less than 100% fort.. Heck, there regular damage per hit is like 70...and they swing really fast.

I just wish I could charm one epic fighter and let him hate tank the raids for us.