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View Full Version : Sorcerer Wall of Fire isn't useless.



Silent-Death
07-18-2011, 07:42 AM
During gameplay, players and a handful of forumers are saying that Wall of Fire (or Firewall) is useless due to the nerfs. IT'S NOT. It may not be as good as before, but it is most definitely not useless. Just pointing that out.

Razzputin
07-18-2011, 07:44 AM
actually in some ways it's better, you dont have to turn off extend from time to time to reduce the cost of WoF's that you dont need the extra time on so you save on sp's...at least for those of us who do not wish to be constantly fiddling with extend/max/empower between every fight

Shade
07-18-2011, 07:48 AM
Since the change, WoF is actaully far stronger then ever before at low-mid lvls. Since it actaully got a damage boost, duration boost and cost deduction (if you usually play with extend on, as most do)

It starts to become useless at endgame, since they capped it at lvl15, capped the duration and and fire immune/resistant monsters tends to be extremely plentiful there, while they reduced the overall resistances to most non-fire types, especially acid.

Aside from perhaps if you run lots abbot, i dont even see the point of having it loaded at lvl20. as even for abbot you can replace it with decent alternates like acid rain.

pHo3nix
07-18-2011, 07:48 AM
actually in some ways it's better, you dont have to turn off extend from time to time to reduce the cost of WoF's that you dont need the extra time on so you save on sp's...at least for those of us who do not wish to be constantly fiddling with extend/max/empower between every fight

It's not useless, but it's just a shadow of its former self :)

ImFour20
07-18-2011, 07:49 AM
actually in some ways it's better, you dont have to turn off extend from time to time to reduce the cost of WoF's that you dont need the extra time on so you save on sp's...at least for those of us who do not wish to be constantly fiddling with extend/max/empower between every fight

this is what i enjoy about the changes. but i still prefer ice storm

insaneuou
07-18-2011, 07:50 AM
During gameplay, players and a handful of forumers are saying that Wall of Fire (or Firewall) is useless due to the nerfs. IT'S NOT. It may not be as good as before, but it is most definitely not useless. Just pointing that out.

i do think the same. The main problem is most of the stuff in this game(quests, spells, etc) gets nerfed over time.. Fwall is one of the most widely used effective spell for arcane. Everyone knows now fwall doesnt suck very very bad but most fear it will be nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again over time Hence lets say fwall sucks for now and /rant abt it :D

richieelias27
07-18-2011, 09:06 AM
Of course firewall isnt worthless. What you are hearing from other players is the standard "sky is falling" rhetoric. Fact is Wall of Fire is just as useful as Ice Storm and Acid Rain in appropriate content. The problem is that Wall of Fire used to be the *only* option for mana efficient caster DPS and now it shares that space with 2 other spells.

I still prefer Ice Storm as my standard catch-all aoe DoT though.
1. Outside of mantles, nothing is immune to the untyped portion of Ice Storm.
2. If anyone in your group chose Ice Storm, you cannot use Wall of Fire. (They should do something about this)

Diyon
07-18-2011, 09:25 AM
I agree, its most definitely not worthless. On the other hand I still run into lots of people that think its mandatory, and when running on my sorc get told to "put up a wall of fire there." Which is ridiculous now, there are a number of other good options, and sometimes the job can get done better with nonpersistant effects (where as wall of fire used to do better in said situations).

Chai
07-18-2011, 09:34 AM
Its those exagerated claims that I find hilarious when it comes to nerf time, or nerf requests in general.

Something nerfed is "useless"

Something that they feel should be nerfed makes everything else "useless"

No on both accounts.

I just facerolled elite deleras and elite necro 2 on a level 8 sorc using one firewall per room for most of the content. The toon isnt even a fire savant, which is what I likely should have done for this content, then changed up later. I took air savant so the firewalls arent as strong as they could be, but they are not weak either.

Darkrok
07-18-2011, 09:38 AM
The problem now with Wall of Fire isn't the spell itself. It's the alternatives outside of WoF.

Fire and Ice both have a lance spell (level 2 and 3 respectively).
Both have an aoe spell (level 4 for both)
Once you reach spell level 7 they both have 20 level cap aoe's (level 6 ice/7 fire)
Fire does have a nice cloud at spell level 8 not replicated by cold (incendiary cloud) but the damage on that one is secondary to the cloud effects since it's only 4d6.

But Ice has the new DoT (Niac's Biting Cold). Fire has no answer to that. Burning Blood is nice, and actually quicker damage than Niac's (avg 23.5 / tick base for Niac's versus 30 / tick avg - 15 fire and 15 acid - on burning blood at level 20) but there are some things that make Burning Blood just not stack up. First - it only works on targets that have 'blood'. That really hurts its usefulness. Second, Niac's has the wonderful stacking portion that on longer fights makes it far more powerful. Cast just as often as burning blood (every 12 seconds) you end up taking the average to 47 base and then 70.5 base.

Once Niac's becomes available I just can't see a wizard focusing on fire. I had fire all the way to that point on my pale master then switched to cold - I'm having a far easier time soloing things. The flexibility of both Niac's (works on things without blood) and ice storm (bludgeoning works on darned near everything) were enough to have me go full cold instead of full fire and keep 1 point each for force and fire just on the off-chance I end up needing to through some disintegrates or wall of fires.

Billybobml
07-18-2011, 09:52 AM
It's not useless. Very useful scroll farming wiz king. Although never really used in raids it is superior to Ice Storm in the FREAKING HUGE LAG it does not impose on my party.

Zirun
07-18-2011, 10:04 AM
You mean I can't use the same spell for almost the entire game and succeed?

Whatever will I do?!?!

Funny thing is, before the nerf into "uselessness", I hated using Wall of Fire, because it was necessary. But then I couldn't play arcanes, because casting it was necessary. Now that it's not necessary, I love using it. But only because if I want to kill that caster from afar, I have an option other than setting the ground at its feet and the air around it on fire and waiting.

People will cry about their toys being broken even if their toys aren't broken. It's what they do. It's all some people know how to do.

maddmatt70
07-18-2011, 10:09 AM
at mid game it is the most efficient mana dps spell. At end game it is not that effective, but whatever.

Oracle_Gil
07-18-2011, 02:45 PM
During gameplay, players and a handful of forumers are saying that Wall of Fire (or Firewall) is useless due to the nerfs. IT'S NOT. It may not be as good as before, but it is most definitely not useless. Just pointing that out.
I wouldnt say its useless, unless its master's touch scroll for yourself(learnt it hard way when I bought a lot before testing them)... but you might want to consider the fact that AI has changed a lot since update.
So the mobs are extinguishing the fw a lot. The hell hounds, shamans causing ice stroms... etc. Now its use is much less situational than before.
So the nerf is actually more than the damage numbers, because of change in AI.

xtchizobr
07-18-2011, 08:15 PM
i do think the same. The main problem is most of the stuff in this game(quests, spells, etc) gets nerfed over time.. Fwall is one of the most widely used effective spell for arcane. Everyone knows now fwall doesnt suck very very bad but most fear it will be nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again over time Hence lets say fwall sucks for now and /rant abt it :D

Wall of Fire used to be outrageously overpowered. and by "outrageous" i mean "Turbine was the laughing stock of game designers everywhere" because of how overpowered it was. literally no other nuke was worth casting unless your target was very resistant to fire.

now it's more akin to Cloudkill in its situational use which is where it should have been.

i'll just throw this in to thumb my nose at Sorcs: Wizzies don't care what spells are the flavor du jour, they just switch as needed! ;D

butcheredspirit
07-19-2011, 07:53 AM
I've never had a lag issue with ice storm, ever!

I generally prefer that spell, because it seems to have a larger area.
And you can cast it a million times in the one spot for great damage per second.

Wall of fire is still quite a decent spell.
However it's nice to see people casting other things.

Sarisa
07-19-2011, 08:04 AM
I'm spec'ed for ice on my wizard, but still carry Firewall with the first tier of fire damage enhancements. Both are useful in eWizKing.

danotmano1998
07-19-2011, 08:20 AM
Ice Storm in the FREAKING HUGE LAG

I've found this to be true ONLY when using a sub-par graphics card. My laptop stutters and freaks out when this spell is cast. My desktop has seen about 6 of them at one time. (Yeah, I tested it just to see.). There is NO lag. It's purely a graphics performance issue.

There are 3 ways to fix this.
1. Buy a real graphics card. (You can get them around 200$ for a nice one.)
2. Turn down your graphics settings. Test. Repeat until it's acceptable.
3. Tell the mage you're having issues with that spell and to please keep it to a minimum.

Of course, #3 only works partially as other AOE spells will tend to do some of the same graphics intensive effects, and you can't control what the monsters are casting. (Acid Fog, Sleet Storm, etc..)


Yes, firewall has it's use still. Even on a water savant I use it from time to time. It's the only fire spell I have in my book.

arch0njw
07-19-2011, 08:22 AM
Is nerf whining ever really about decreased functionality of things, or just plugs in loopholes that permitted border-line exploits?

Anyway, I play a level 9 Wizard right now. I get begged for WoF on a regular basis by my guildies because they love to pop the mob in the microwave for a short bit. It has saved us a few times. It continues to be a favorite of mine.

Nerf... blah blah blah. WoF Rocks! WoF FTW! (Actually, I love web then acid rain... oohhhh... how mean... how nice.)

Truga
07-19-2011, 08:29 AM
Buy a real graphics card. (You can get them around 200$ for a nice one.)


$200? More like $20.

Seriously though, a card that will run ddo smoothly costs like 50 bucks these days..

Also I had more stuttering with firewall than icestorm so...

richieelias27
07-19-2011, 08:35 AM
I run DDO on my laptop and it's over 3 years old now... No problems with Ice Storm for me, though I am sad that it isnt DX11 capable. The sound spam for multiple Ice Storms is highly annoying though... So Wall of Fire does have that going for it.

Silent-Death
07-19-2011, 08:46 AM
Oddly, I've also NEVER had any lag experiences with Ice Storm. But, I've also never had any lag.

testing1234
07-19-2011, 08:47 AM
well my lvl20 water sorc dont carry wof anymore, since it does not do double undead damage i cant think of anyplace id want to use it.

ulticleo
07-19-2011, 09:30 AM
... snip
Once Niac's becomes available I just can't see a wizard focusing on fire. I had fire all the way to that point on my pale master then switched to cold - I'm having a far easier time soloing things. The flexibility of both Niac's (works on things without blood) and ice storm (bludgeoning works on darned near everything) were enough to have me go full cold instead of full fire and keep 1 point each for force and fire just on the off-chance I end up needing to through some disintegrates or wall of fires.

I am TRing my pale master, and have to respectfully disagree. I thought the same as you, and respecced my wiz to cold and lightning at lvl 9, and regretted it almost immediately.

at lvl 9-11 (I am currently 11), very, very few fights require single target DOTs provided by the lvl 5 spells. I am still fighting tons of undead (shadow crypt farming, anyone?) where WoF is, despite the nerf, far superior to ice storm, especially since some undead are immune to cold. Also, even when farming von3/5 (well, 5 has all those undead engineers too) I found WoF to be better. there is some delay between casting IS and the first tick (around 6 sec, I found) which gives the mobs time to beat on you a few more times. True, WoF has the reflex save, but not many mobs make it against a wiz tr... I do find that shield blocking in the wall gets them to die a bit faster than bunny hopping, though, and my equipment needs to be repaired often ;)

I plan to keep fire specced, with some ice and force (10 free MM, disintegrate, and I kinda like force/chain missle as well) through necro 3 (yes, I run it), wiz king, and necro 4. I expect to drop fire and WoF when I hit the vale, but not sooner.

you may disagree, but that's fine. each one finds what works for them.

EDIT: yes, I know WoF doesn't do double damage to undead, but 4d6+(7 to 15) is still more than 4d6

bigolbear
07-19-2011, 09:51 AM
due to recent changes in AI, i have found my self instinctively using firewall as a hearding mechanic.

The ai change was so darn subtle (and doesnt apply to stupid undead it seems) but i realy approve. Maybe it wasnt a change but now firewall doesnt kill in 1 or 2 hits the mobs simply have time to run out of it.

I still use firewall, on both my tukaw(fire savant) and on my pure wizy. Its still a great damage spell against undead, and now i can use it for positioning and blocking.

I like the change (nerf as its called) and with the viability of other AOE DOTS firewalls place as the be all and end all spell to many has been corrected while maintaining a valid use for what is only a lvl 4 spell.

I do think incendry cloud needs some love still tho - either up the damage back to what fire wall used to do or up the duration back to what it was.

For me the main plus to firewall is the fact that it does not cause LAG, and it can be targeted at things behind or to the side of you - the amount of times i see targeting errors on icestorm, and acid rain is rather annoying in comparison.

Zildoran
07-19-2011, 12:29 PM
I do lag slightly from stacked ice storms, and I play on a fairly good laptop (i5 processor 4 gigs memory). Only problem is there is the integrated graphics with no space to upgrade it with a graphics card even if I did want to. Assuming I'm still playing DDO in 2 years from now (very likely) I'll have a desktop and won't have graphics lag problems.

sweez
07-19-2011, 12:36 PM
Web + firewall still destroys everything pre-Vale. In vale just use banishment/wail, after vale just use instakills if solo and instakills and maybe web and/or hold if grouping :p

soulaeon
07-19-2011, 01:00 PM
Could you at least ellaborate instead of making more forum clutter?
I can think of only two places where Wall of Fire is not useless: Tower of Despair, and Delera's Tomb.

richieelias27
07-19-2011, 01:31 PM
Could you at least ellaborate instead of making more forum clutter?
I can think of only two places where Wall of Fire is not useless: Tower of Despair, and Delera's Tomb.

Uh, lets see... everywhere where the majority of the quest content is not immune to fire. I think if you revisit quests in the game you will find that the list is comprised of far more than ToD and Deleras. Or perhaps you can elaborate a bit and explain why WoF does not perform just as well as Ice Storm or Acid Rain? What do you feel is the major factor in *your* belief that WoF is "useless"?

The door swings both ways.

donfilibuster
07-19-2011, 01:55 PM
Post u9 firewall is like hold monster in the sense that it is very useful if you can use it in the right moments.
It no longer let you to go call for a pizza while the party herd all the mobs in the dungeon to it.
But throw them in corridors and doors and watch them burn, you can shield block or kite on it as much as before.
Likewise monsters held for six seconds are still dead monsters if the melees are paying attention to the fight beside autoattacking.

Then again you need be fully boosted in the fire line and items, a non-buffed spell of any element would not do any good.
The thing is firewall and fireball are spell level III and IV, whereas ice storm, niac and cone is IV and V, ball of elec, eladar surge and chain lightning are V and VI.
A new fire wizard that doesn't know better would feel weaker and would see all the sorcs chain zapping the kill count.
Yet once you know what you are doing fire is still usable through those mid levels until you can get to VII for delayed blast fireball.
Naturally resetting your enhancements is not evil, just switch elements and back as you see fit.

HelvanderSeries6
07-19-2011, 02:09 PM
During gameplay, players and a handful of forumers are saying that Wall of Fire (or Firewall) is useless due to the nerfs. IT'S NOT. It may not be as good as before, but it is most definitely not useless. Just pointing that out.

Agreed that it is not useless but i admit i dont use it much on my lvl20 sorc anymore. Since firewall caps at cl15 i have switched to incendiary cloud. My current technique is solidfog/inc cloud and my dmg/crits are higher than my pre update firewall. On the next TR, firewall will be use as usual and the fact that it is unextended and capped just takes some getting used to but certainly not useless.

goodspeed
07-19-2011, 09:31 PM
$200? More like $20.

Seriously though, a card that will run ddo smoothly costs like 50 bucks these days..

Also I had more stuttering with firewall than icestorm so...

lol thats why people are lagging out in ice storm.

I could pick up a graphics card to 10 bucks. It's gonna be a piece of &*%, but it'll install. On the other hand for about 150 you can get a real nice one that's been replaced by the newer years models with the right about in streams and pipes and all that other **** to round it out.

(I usually look to make sure that damn thing don't turn into a yetti 3 months down the road.

stille_nacht
07-19-2011, 09:34 PM
$200? More like $20.

Seriously though, a card that will run ddo smoothly costs like 50 bucks these days..

Also I had more stuttering with firewall than icestorm so...

pshh, cards that can run ddo smoothly on high come built into any modern laptop that costs more than 350 bucks

Isolani
07-20-2011, 01:44 AM
So the mobs are extinguishing the fw a lot. The hell hounds, shamans causing ice stroms... etc. Now its use is much less situational than before.
So the nerf is actually more than the damage numbers, because of change in AI.

This is what bothers me more than the damage nerf. WoF damage is still good enough to kill things, but since the devs decided to give a ridiculous number of mobs the ability to blow it out, it's not even worth using in a lot of quests. I just ended up using a lot more Fireballs through the early/mid levels instead of WoF when I leveled up a sorcerer TR recently. WoF still dominates in a few places though as the OP mentioned, Delera's, Necro 2, etc.

By later levels, WoF gets kinda weak. I did stealer of souls solo on normal and WoF was barely scratching lich Sor'jek compared to old WoF. It used to tear him up.

I've tried Ice Storm as a substitute...I just don't like that spell, the sound annoys me.

soulaeon
07-20-2011, 02:58 AM
Uh, lets see... everywhere where the majority of the quest content is not immune to fire. I think if you revisit quests in the game you will find that the list is comprised of far more than ToD and Deleras. Or perhaps you can elaborate a bit and explain why WoF does not perform just as well as Ice Storm or Acid Rain? What do you feel is the major factor in *your* belief that WoF is "useless"?

The door swings both ways.
That's where the premise of the original post is useless. There's the assumption that either this spell is really useful, or there is an alternative persistent spell that does the same job that it would have. The poster could have at least explained why Wall of Fire is so great at the very least.
Personally, I found there are not any "alternative" persistent AOE spells that do what the old firewall did-- since they raised sorcerer damage exponentially, and introduced the low cost savant spells, I found almost no need for any persistent AOE. Ice Storm (which I use) is about the same damage as the current Wall of Fire, but neither are particularly useful at all, not when we can simply kill or disable outright.

As for where the door swings, the burden of proof is always on the person making the claim.

richieelias27
07-20-2011, 08:54 AM
That's where the premise of the original post is useless. There's the assumption that either this spell is really useful, or there is an alternative persistent spell that does the same job that it would have. The poster could have at least explained why Wall of Fire is so great at the very least.
Personally, I found there are not any "alternative" persistent AOE spells that do what the old firewall did-- since they raised sorcerer damage exponentially, and introduced the low cost savant spells, I found almost no need for any persistent AOE. Ice Storm (which I use) is about the same damage as the current Wall of Fire, but neither are particularly useful at all, not when we can simply kill or disable outright.

As for where the door swings, the burden of proof is always on the person making the claim.

Well, the door swinging both ways was in reference to your comment about adding to forum clutter but then not adding anything constructive in your post either. However, you then rectified that with the above post, so I'll give a +1 to you.

I'd still disagree on Wall of Fire though. Yes it is no longer uber dps, but it is still tied with the other persistant AOE's for superior mana to damage ratio. Now, granted your sorcerer may or may not need to conserve mana, but the option is there and that is the important part. It performs well in its advertised role or mana efficient area DPS, and I'm quite happy with it. And for that reason, to me, it is not *useless*.

Oracle_Gil
07-20-2011, 09:24 AM
I've tried Ice Storm as a substitute...I just don't like that spell, the sound annoys me.
positives
the ice storm has a bludgeon component causing damage too. So it will even damage the ice monsters.
No reflex save unlike fw as of now.

negatives
there is lag before damage starts.
Against mobs with FoM this spell again looses its main power - its ability to slow.

Faent
07-20-2011, 07:46 PM
Firewall is fantastic for leveling. I spec Acid/Fire up to Vale. Raise Red Dungeon Alert, drop a Web, Acid Rain, and Firewall and watch everything die instantly. Your Acid Rain will insta-kill all the fast mobs, and your Firewall will be burning in the web to catch all the rest of the slow mobs that are following you. Just move on and do it again.

donfilibuster
07-21-2011, 12:32 AM
Firewall is fantastic for leveling. I spec Acid/Fire up to Vale. Raise Red Dungeon Alert, drop a Web, Acid Rain, and Firewall and watch everything die instantly. Your Acid Rain will insta-kill all the fast mobs, and your Firewall will be burning in the web to catch all the rest of the slow mobs that are following you. Just move on and do it again.

If my wizard could wear T-Shirts it'd say

Firewall Is
Fantastic

And also a hat with 'Wizzard' sewn in big letters.