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Maelodic
07-13-2011, 07:33 PM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

What, is it the ultimate draw or something? "WOW I GETTA BE A ZOMBIE LET ME NOT PLAN ANYTHING AND THEN SUCK AT PLAYING!"

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Morosy
07-13-2011, 07:36 PM
I'm a good PM :D I've seen bad ones but I've seen bad ones of every class. Didn't notice it to be more prevalent among PMs.

Maelodic
07-13-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm a good PM :D I've seen bad ones but I've seen bad ones of every class. Didn't notice it to be more prevalent among PMs.

I usually see more good than bad. With ranking of awesome to not, it's usually AAs, Warchanters at top, and then PMs way down at bottem. FvS tend to be nooby too, unless they're warforged.

But that's just lower levels. =P

Rakian_Knight
07-13-2011, 07:53 PM
I think that may be because Pale Masters have become the flavor build of the month after the removal of blanket immunity of creatures in most quest. You know all those players that flood to a certain kind of class/build because they hear it is overpowered or the next best thing etc.

Whatever the case Pale Masters at low levels tend to be harder to play in general due only important spell level being filled with spells they are expected to have on top of the spell that allow them to heal themselves with constant healing (death aura) and burst healing (Negative Energy Blast).

joueur
07-13-2011, 07:58 PM
You can't say you have seen undeads when the only ones you know are zombies, not liches.

Mackem
07-13-2011, 08:22 PM
I may only guess that some PM's treat the form and self-healing (aura, burst) as a "win" button but do not really know the content well enough to use it appropriately.

There is a big number of quests out there with mobs spamming light based spells so in many instances it's better for a PM to go out of form, at least until they are able to take those casters out reliably fast.

On top of the content knowledge a PM should be also aware of his capabilities, which depend on both player skill and (also importantly) the gear set/past life feats etc.

So in my understanding the "good" PM is the one who knows content, makes right decision whether to go in form or without and therefore won't ever die to the "light-casters" simply because he knows what he's doing :)

Jaid314
07-13-2011, 10:06 PM
I think that may be because Pale Masters have become the flavor build of the month after the removal of blanket immunity of creatures in most quest. You know all those players that flood to a certain kind of class/build because they hear it is overpowered or the next best thing etc.

this is what i figure too. you get people thinking "oh, wow, i hear class/build/race/whatever X is overpowered, i'm going to make one".

most of those people who do that sort of thing will be the people who can't compensate for a suboptimal character with player skill. most of them don't really understand what it is that makes the build powerful, why it's a powerful build, how to play the build, and/or how to play the game competently in general.

as such, the moment something becomes the flavor of the month, you're going to see a lot of *really* bad players attempting to go that route. and you'll also see a few really awesome players doing the same, if you're lucky... some of them have been wanting to try out the build or concept for a long time, and figured that now is the time to do so.

Vellrad
07-13-2011, 10:08 PM
People tend to remember bad things more than good.

This, and also all the aboves.

Sheep_Stealer
07-13-2011, 10:47 PM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Pale Masters are a pain to play until they hit level 12 (at least that was my experience). The zombie form is pretty useless. But once you get wraith (with blur/displacement) or vampire (for CC, threat reduction) and necrotic bolt things start getting a lot better.

Snapdragoon
07-13-2011, 10:55 PM
i have a drow PM as my main, level'd her up to 20 back in the day before they were "OMFG OP BBQ" it was tough going to level them up to about 12ish (before zombie, havent ever used it so dont know) but then you got forms, your first good SLA, and a usable amount of SP and after that things came together.

the problem i have seen is people who think of them like melee characters, who now have regen so can tank anything, the other problem is most of them play a drow as well, go squish over and over, and give the rest of us a bad name.

as with most things in this game, a smart player with a high int score is going to be awsome no matter what he plays, on the other spectrum. . .yeah.

insaneuou
07-13-2011, 11:06 PM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

What, is it the ultimate draw or something? "WOW I GETTA BE A ZOMBIE LET ME NOT PLAN ANYTHING AND THEN SUCK AT PLAYING!"

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Have lil patience. Make the same observation when at high lvls and epics!

Ttizz
07-13-2011, 11:11 PM
my PM when she was lvl 9. To her credit she is a TR and I have been playing since launch

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/Tizz86/ScreenShot00162.jpg

Simplesimon1979
07-13-2011, 11:12 PM
Cause all the good ones just solo everything :)

Lithic
07-13-2011, 11:13 PM
Average player + complicated class + complicated PrE + immune to heals & reconstruct + 200% (or 400%) searing light damage + dungeons oozing with searing light casters = dead palesuckster. Err -10%master. I mean deadmaster. I mean failmaster.

Yeah thats the one.

donfilibuster
07-14-2011, 05:00 AM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

What, is it the ultimate draw or something? "WOW I GETTA BE A ZOMBIE LET ME NOT PLAN ANYTHING AND THEN SUCK AT PLAYING!"

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Yep, all the little zombies crave for brains.

It used to be that the true power of the palemaster began at level 12, when u could take the undead shrouds.
Vampire at 12 is evidently a bit harder than Lich at 12 was, since new wizards may have trouble speccing for both enchantment and necro at once.
Looks very much like a trap at first glance. And the vampire is even weaker to light based damage.

Furthermore new wizards may not be used to lich form upon reaching 18, unlike when you could take it at 12.
Would take a bit more practice than before to get it right at the higher levels.
It is no doubt however, that lich form at higher levels can be very very powerful.

But bad casters are not exclusive of wizards, since the u9 changes i have been seeing plenty of new sorcerers that think they are now uber and stand in the middle of the fight demanding heals (no jk!).
To be fair they can indeed get the work done but still a bit of a glass cannon in the eye of the healers even if they have enough hp to live through it.

caution
07-14-2011, 05:10 AM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

I agree, except if they are a good player (skill wise), then they are useless.

I think the problem is that it is like a battle cleric. They think they can self-heal and think they are good solo builds (where a PM is, in the right hands only). It's attactive, but at the end of the day relying of crappy heals, having a non-party friendly build, and using pets is a recipie for disaster!

Sarisa
07-14-2011, 07:02 AM
Just echo'ing what others have said.

Pale Master, like Arcane Archer and Battle Cleric, are more complicated builds with high equipment requirements to run well, that still appeal to new players.

A PM REQUIRES raid or event gear, along with good reflexes and good game experience in order to play well at the near-end and end game. Otherwise, they're just a -10%XP penalty that MIGHT cast a Haste once in a while. Having a large number of temporary HP procs, having a Boon to Undeath item (Abbot/Mabar), having the good DQ raid gear, and knowing when to go into form and when NOT to go into form is all very important, and a new player will not be able to do so.

Just last night, I was in an Epic Wizard King and a PM decided he was going to go into form and run up to a mummy caster (they LOVE Searing Light).

stille_nacht
07-14-2011, 07:05 AM
Average player + complicated class + complicated PrE + immune to heals & reconstruct + 200% (or 400%) searing light damage + dungeons oozing with searing light casters = dead palesuckster. Err -10%master. I mean deadmaster. I mean failmaster.

Yeah thats the one.

this basically, newer players just sorta hear about how awesome wail of the banshee is and go "omg pm for me", honestly its not that good before the 2nd stage of the PrE and necrotic bolt/whatnot, i always go archmage before lv 12 just for the extra sp.

licho
07-14-2011, 07:28 AM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

What, is it the ultimate draw or something? "WOW I GETTA BE A ZOMBIE LET ME NOT PLAN ANYTHING AND THEN SUCK AT PLAYING!"

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Its becouse good PM are to busy soloing content, and they are farming it faster than your PUG. :-P
Or they are too perved, so they the think... "lets the kids get some kills". :-)

You can also be biased, so remeber each fail PM better, if one think "Drow are squishy and suck" then if it happen drow rog dies it will be "aha, i knew that!".

But to be honest idk, i have meat good and both players on every class, race combo.
Yes some casters are too used to easy button, and that they can solve everytning with one push, so that the we run at elite, they are lost.
Also the more annoying are the kids, who have urgue to talk all around how uber they are, link every crit they have, and generally behave that it was a gift we are allowed to pug with them.

Also all cool folks go AM till lv12, and use Wraith till 18. ;-P

Mrmorphling
07-14-2011, 07:30 AM
Just last night, I was in an Epic Wizard King and a PM decided he was going to go into form and run up to a mummy caster (they LOVE Searing Light).

Well, in Ewiz king, imho, the pros of being in form way outperform the cons; for sure you have to be carefull with mummies but any average geared PM will be able to withstand 2 hits from searing light (they deal 200ish avg); but being able to have perma deathward+immunity to fear/command while being dispelled every other room is too nice to pass on.

PestWulf
07-14-2011, 09:11 AM
A big part of it is people don't know how bad the light damage is and how prolific it is. The fact that the very first shroud is a melee oriented one and the second one lets you regen if you're attacking folks with fists doesn't help either. The natural conclusion is that melee is "ok" to include in your build.

When in reality, the only way you are meleeing and living is if you have a trained and knowledgeable group who will work with you on prioritizing light dealers. The way it stands now, Undead forms are meant for caster builds not melee builds. They are simply a tool for casters and not meant to be used in some melee regeneration splash build.

So from my point of view, a big part of the problem is Turbine threw in two melee class shrouds early on and made it very confusing for folks. What looks good on paper simply does not work when everyone and their brother casts searing light and flame strikes for anywhere between 80 and 200 damage that you can't do jack about.

Combine that with a naturally light hp class and well...the first form should have been called Corpse Candle, not Zombie.

Arctigis
07-14-2011, 09:36 AM
A big part of it is people don't know how bad the light damage is and how prolific it is. The fact that the very first shroud is a melee oriented one and the second one lets you regen if you're attacking folks with fists doesn't help either. The natural conclusion is that melee is "ok" to include in your build.

When in reality, the only way you are meleeing and living is if you have a trained and knowledgeable group who will work with you on prioritizing light dealers. The way it stands now, Undead forms are meant for caster builds not melee builds. They are simply a tool for casters and not meant to be used in some melee regeneration splash build.

So from my point of view, a big part of the problem is Turbine threw in two melee class shrouds early on and made it very confusing for folks. What looks good on paper simply does not work when everyone and their brother casts searing light and flame strikes for anywhere between 80 and 200 damage that you can't do jack about.

Combine that with a naturally light hp class and well...the first form should have been called Corpse Candle, not Zombie.

Siegebreaker + Vampire Shroud + Sunburst (L13 quest)

Better clear out those Mining Engineers pronto! ;)

Kevorkian
07-14-2011, 11:27 AM
Most new PM's take early forms when it's actually more beneficial to not take a form until 12. I personally like Wraith over Vamp to level to 18 and get lich, then all other forms are redundant.

So newer PMs just be all Wizzardy until 12 then get all undead. Just avoid aggro until you get firewall, then just burninate everything until you can get wraith/vamp.

Kmnh
07-14-2011, 11:38 AM
I remember taking a plae master on the last spot for an epic dq1. He was doing fine, helping kill trash and stuff, but he kept dying to suburst. It was funny to watch. I wish I'd remember his name. I hope he didn't quit doing that quest :o

Joldahks
07-14-2011, 12:17 PM
Well, I am a Palemaster and I think I'm half decent at it. I started her just before the patch that made them the flavor of the month, so I like to think I got my foot in the door early :)

The thing I think I'm below average at is being a Wizard in a group. I'm learning, though, with my small group of friends. I just did my first raid as a Wizard yesterday (DQ) and was terrified! But I didn't die. I think having 2 rogue levels and Insightful Reflexes helps me an awful lot. I have never died to Flame Strike or Sunburst :)

So, in short, I think PM is a challenging PRE but is highly flavorful, which is part of its draw. Going into the first form and saying 'Hi I'm a zombie!' ala this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCRUPWDIgYM) video is immensely satisfying. Just learning the PM along with learning wizard is a double whammy that I am enjoying!

Yes this post is mostly pointless :)

Maelodic
07-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Thank you for your useful replies guys.

I was actually considering going PM at 12, but I'd have to switch out quite a few feats- I'm a halfling dragonmarked evocation archmage currently, basically a mini-sorc with heals.

But yeah, I'll be sure to watch for PMs to start getting better.

Milfeulle
07-14-2011, 04:35 PM
I remember taking a plae master on the last spot for an epic dq1. He was doing fine, helping kill trash and stuff, but he kept dying to suburst. It was funny to watch. I wish I'd remember his name. I hope he didn't quit doing that quest :o

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8705/searinglight.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/searinglight.jpg/)

It's all cool and fun till you got stucked by a portion of electromagnetic radiation that travels at a speed of 3x10^8 m/s.

Arctigis
07-14-2011, 04:37 PM
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8705/searinglight.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/searinglight.jpg/)

It's all cool and fun till you got stucked by a portion of electromagnetic radiation that travels at a speed of 3x10^8 m/s.

Hahaha. Awesome....

Doganpc
07-14-2011, 04:37 PM
I have an issue with the Wizards who max CON and think they can melee like a Fighter. Its like they forget that CON is related to hit dice not hit points. You get 1d4+[CON Bonus] each level as a wizard. So even with max CON you're still 6hp per level behind a Fighter, Barbarian. I don't mind that they like to melee, just let the person with the hit points (and probably armor earlier in the game) get their attention and go in swinging afterwards.

Dogan
This is related to Arcanes that spam spells but can't manage aggro (ding dings).

darksol23
07-14-2011, 04:54 PM
cause All The Good Ones Just Solo Everything :)

+1

dingal
07-14-2011, 04:57 PM
Granted I'm only level 11, but seriously, the only Pale Master I've seen that hasn't been horribly destroyed by everything ever and get like 2 kills per quest has been my brother, who usually leads in the kill count and only dies when I don't kill the light-casters fast enough.

What, is it the ultimate draw or something? "WOW I GETTA BE A ZOMBIE LET ME NOT PLAN ANYTHING AND THEN SUCK AT PLAYING!"

I dunno, does it get better? I know potentially, PMs really rock, but I have yet to see one play well apart from my brother.

Get to level 18 and it's a different world, one entirely dominated by pale masters.

Culver.Civello
07-14-2011, 05:08 PM
I usually see more good than bad. With ranking of awesome to not, it's usually AAs, Warchanters at top, and then PMs way down at bottem. FvS tend to be nooby too, unless they're warforged.

But that's just lower levels. =P

Funny.. cause my Helf FvS has wiped the floor with many WF FvS. :3

rest
07-14-2011, 05:09 PM
Because all the good Pale Masters are soloing, and don't need you ;)

Edit: Should really read the whole thread first. Someone beat me to this punchline.

dingal
07-14-2011, 05:12 PM
Because all the good Pale Masters are soloing, and don't need you ;)

Edit: Should really read the whole thread first. Someone beat me to this punchline.

It's very true thought :)

We don't ALWAYS solo. Sometimes we get full groups of pale masters and run epics all day.

LeLoric
07-14-2011, 05:15 PM
It's very true thought :)

We don't ALWAYS solo. Sometimes we get full groups of pale masters and run epics all day.

"I don't always solo, but when I do I drink Dos Equis."

-the most interesting dead man in the world

Beethoven
07-14-2011, 05:45 PM
It's because - despite what some people would like to make believe - casters (in general) do have weaknesses. They are more squishy than most melee's. They have a limited resource (SP). They usually die fairly quick when knocked down, held or otherwise rendered helpless. I always found playing a caster is also different since gear also makes less a difference than experience and player skill.

You hear a lot about how casters dominate all content including epics. Usually this is because these casters are played by someone who has gotten so good at the game (s)he completely circumvents the weaknesses of the class and thus turns it into something that enjoys the full benefit of a very powerful class with no virtually no drawbacks.


* knowing exactly what to expect and how to protect yourself from it, knowing what mobs you will encounter and what spells work best against them, years of practice in dodging everything thrown at you (whether its mobs or spells) helps and finally knowing tactics that have been proven effective time and time again in various situations easily makes up for less hitpoints.
* the knowledge on how to use your spells to the maximum benefit, how much spellpoints you go through in any given encounter and where all the rest shrines are help a lot in managing your spellpoints.

Now, you are questing in the lower level range you more commonly encounter players who simply didn't have the time yet to develop all that knowledge, experience and practice and thus still suffer the full drawbacks that come with playing a caster. It's why I don't care for all the nerf threats. Those players that make even epics look trivial on a Palemaster would still suck every ounce of challenge out of the quest as Enchanter, or annihilate every single mob encountered on a Savant.

testing1234
07-14-2011, 06:14 PM
Granted I'm only level 11,

zerger
an experienced zerger gets to 11 in a couple of hours, so you wont run into those they just spend to little time that low lvl.

ransacker
experinced smell-the-flowers tend to party with friends you wont find those pugging or very rarely.

pugger
so what you can run into is experinced players who like to pug but those also levels reasonable quick so up to 11 they make up a very small portion of the pugg player base

or it could be that low level gaming is actually pretty hard at high level you get the right tool to get the jobb done low lvl your often a unbalanced build waiting for the key spells or equipment.

Phidius
07-14-2011, 06:32 PM
I have an issue with the Wizards who max CON and think they can melee like a Fighter.
...

I do too - 16 build points is an awful lot to pour into Con for most classes.


... Its like they forget that CON is related to hit dice not hit points.
...

Um, what?


... You get 1d4+[CON Bonus] each level as a wizard. So even with max CON you're still 6hp per level behind a Fighter, Barbarian.
...

It's worse than that - Fighters and Barbarians get Racial enhancements if you take the Toughness feats, while the wizard class gets none.

The smaller hit point pool is bearable considering how easy and fast it is to refill.


... I don't mind that they like to melee, just let the person with the hit points (and probably armor earlier in the game) get their attention and go in swinging afterwards.
...

This is good advice, regardless of what class one is playing. If you find yourself routinely running low on hit points, there's probably someone else in your group that is better suited to handle the aggro.

Enoach
07-14-2011, 08:01 PM
It's worse than that - Fighters and Barbarians get Racial enhancements if you take the Toughness feats, while the wizard class gets none.



Just a small correction here:

All races have Toughness Enhancements some have only 2 while others have more...

Fighters and Barbarians get access to CLASS enhancements - Wizards do not have CLASS enhancements to Toughness. Only Half Elf Wizards with Barbarian Dilettante get access to 2 additional CLASS Toughness enhancements.

Pale Masters also have PrE related bonus HP (+5 HP first and second tier, +10 for third tier) total of +20.

================================================== =======================

With that being said, yes I do agree with the statement "If you cannot manage the Agro, than don't do it..."

Phidius
07-14-2011, 08:06 PM
Just a small correction here:

All races have Toughness Enhancements some have only 2 while others have more...

Fighters and Barbarians get access to CLASS enhancements - Wizards do not have CLASS enhancements to Toughness. Only Half Elf Wizards with Barbarian Dilettante get access to 2 additional CLASS Toughness enhancements.

Pale Masters also have PrE related bonus HP (+5 HP first and second tier, +10 for third tier) total of +20.

================================================== =======================

With that being said, yes I do agree with the statement "If you cannot manage the Agro, than don't do it..."

Very true - "classal enhancements" just doesn't sound right :)

Vellrad
07-14-2011, 08:07 PM
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8705/searinglight.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/searinglight.jpg/)


DDO screenshot of the week winner?

Bodic
07-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Granted I'm only level 11

and they are soloing the game still at this point or not grouping with you, but their guild mates.

Emili
07-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Wizard has always been a powerful class to begin with. The PM PrE reinforces such and... newer players not only heard but have seen first hand in action what they can do now.

Thus you have a small sea of new PM's running around... btw, it will grow.

Fret not however! All it takes is time, many of these new to class players will learn the trade. Wizards (PM's included are easier than rocket science and rocket science is easy) and easy to get the hang of in practice. DDO is easy and your average PM will come up to speed while a few inept players drop out.


People are silly, is just a repeat of history... we all saw the same when Orchard came out. Stage one more players roll x class.

Oracle_Gil
07-15-2011, 07:46 AM
I would disagree.
Although I am not playing for a month, before I took the break my PM was usually self-sufficent and the last one to die, till I hit lvl 20(at the point I stopped playing). It gets time to get used to it, but they can easily survive a quest. Kills are low as they kill slowly, and by the time health is 10% left, a melee might come and steal the kill. But they can support a party very well by taking on aggro on themselves.
I think I was more like a melee than a caster. All I did was buff real hard, go in form, change the items, then use those death rays and bolts and stuff. Only spells I used were perhaps insta-kill near frost giants (too much HP, boring to kill them) or fire wall those immune to deathenergy.
Zombie was not bad - immunities. I let trash collect around me before I killed them one by one. With vampire, I was hiding behind trees to finger shamans, hide wait for cooldown and then finger shaman again. But vampire gives good enchantment, useful for humanoids.
I didnt go in any quests 'not in form' because forms look cool-and ofcourse immunities, but there was not much difficulty regarding survival.
But I made sure that my hp was good. I had 18 starting CON (max int and Con) and i think survivability of PM=hp.
And mind you, I am not a good or great player. Just ok ok player.
But I found PM to be the most hardy casters(I would say about same hardiness as battle clerics), though I carried wound pots for emergency. Unlike casters, I could even play it half-heartedly... just stand there with aura and kill trash with necro bolts and ray, so I think the PM are easy to play. And I would regard their playstyle more towards melee, with bit of casting in between (melee means necrotic bolt, and necrotic ray with aura, while taking hits from trash mobs)

Oracle_Gil
07-15-2011, 09:10 AM
I have an issue with the Wizards who max CON and think they can melee like a Fighter. Its like they forget that CON is related to hit dice not hit points. You get 1d4+[CON Bonus] each level as a wizard. So even with max CON you're still 6hp per level behind a Fighter, Barbarian. I don't mind that they like to melee, just let the person with the hit points (and probably armor earlier in the game) get their attention and go in swinging afterwards.

Dogan
This is related to Arcanes that spam spells but can't manage aggro (ding dings).

hp=survivability. Our feats use hp, so if it is draining, 20hp will be death or life. And we have no love in game. We use our SP to buff but being dead are hated and dont usually get harm spells. We cant be healed by burst either. And worse we turn to dust, -10 hp there. 18 CON for AM can be debatable(with arguments as 'what else?' and 'its a waste') but saying a PM that extra hp(20) is useless, is not. Hp for PM is (my precious)... an obsession. With 2 more CON i can take 3 enemies at one time rather than 2(hypothetical numbers).

Us undeads do melee, our melee is a bit different than others, it is based on damage mitigation - takes time to get used to. And our aura hides our real hp. If you dont kill us fast we wont die. That is why we are better tanks in many situations... not all of them though. For example, best player to kite sanyasi is undead. We dont dance. And can grab his aggro easily - the damage we do is a joke(unless we decide to activate insta kill). Also tanking many things is possible with undeads.
We want aggro, and i really hate it when my aggro is stolen. A good fighter/barb will run for the caster and sacrifice melee to me for slow painful death, then after killing caster, fighter/barb run back to me and kill mobs i was hurting, with one hit - PM gets no kills while fighter gets all kills with no damage. But PM class being new probably, melee still dont understand their dynamics.
While playing PM, I was trying to play it as a caster, however I found that I surprisingly do well in many roles, with ease; albeit in a different way. Tanking(melee only), crossing the traps(INT and insightful), surviving the fight when party is dead(takes painfully long time as necro ray bolts do less damage and many rage quit) and then use raise dead scroll on cleric, jump up very high on pole and kill trash while eating food - laughing as they cant reach you, using the immunities against enchantments to save the day... I would have never thought these things were actually easy to do on PM. I started PM as flavour build and thought they would be weak, but it is powerful. It just takes time to find out the way to do same stuff done differently.

Oracle_Gil
07-15-2011, 09:51 AM
Most new PM's take early forms when it's actually more beneficial to not take a form until 12. I personally like Wraith over Vamp to level to 18 and get lich, then all other forms are redundant.

So newer PMs just be all Wizzardy until 12 then get all undead. Just avoid aggro until you get firewall, then just burninate everything until you can get wraith/vamp.

That is an oversimplification. You just need a bit of work and planning to make forms work. Ofc even as PM you can switch back to AM anytime, but that wont be a PM now would it?

If you are not WF, zombie is good to take actually. You get immunities... those are a real deal. -2 INT is not that important at that levels... Just say that you became WF with -2 INT and +2 CON and STR. Infact better than wf as undead immunities are more intresting. You get hardy too. But true, it is use and discard type of thing mainly because of -2 INT.
Wraith is good to sneak... invisibility +move silently at mid levels is good. Incorporeal thing is good too.

Vamp is good in its own way. Enchantments are stronger and it doesnt have ff, ff is bothersome at some places. So with wraith you need vamp or zombie. Also killing trash is easier as you get back 1 hp with each hit in melee. So if low on hp, use bolt, start melee(not to hit but for hp) and you get back your hp for bolt... stoneskin wand means you dont get any damage at all... and displacement keeps stoneskin on for long. You might need a DP clicky though. But it is not that useful at lvl 12 as all shamans(even undead) laugh when they see vamp. Go vamp after you have finger of death(and use command undead for undead clerics). Then it becomes do-able... also enjoyable. Then you become a healer killar! (out of neccesity)

Lich is... lich is lich. After you get lich at lvl 18+1rank, I suggest keeping wraith and lich only. Wraith is still good for sneaks while lich is just... lich.

Sircowdog
07-16-2011, 12:20 AM
Cause all the good ones just solo everything :)


This seems very accurate, from what I've seen. Granted I haven't reached even the mid-level quests on my PM, and I'm still learning. But I play it like a caster, not like some kind of half-assed melee. If I was going to play a melee oriented caster, I'd use a Tukaw, not a PM.

Koechophe
07-16-2011, 02:55 AM
Well, this is his pm brother, and I must agree with him on the basis that at lower levels, good pms are rare. I do like having other pms in the party, but generally I have noticed that they make some mistakes that generally decrease their usefullness and generally get themselves killed

1. They like to go first into big mobs. Bad idea usually
2. They dont run away when something throws a searing light at them. Chances are, that something will throw another searing light, and usually the second searing light will kill you if the first one doesn't. I generally run behind something, heal a bit, throw an ice storm or burning blood or frost lance at it. I think that with people, they gain the mindset that self healing=Invunerable. This is not the case.
3. They think that since they are a pale master, they MUST use ONLY negative energy. This is not the case. I almost always use spells such as ice storm or frost lance (I am specced towards fire and ice atm, gonna switch to just ice later for more ap so I can afford the pets and forms) to do damage. Granted, I keep a death aura on and alternate between chill and necrotic touch when I want to conserve sp. I know for a fact that negative energy spells dont hit as much and can cost more sp then regular ones. I honestly think that the sp is much better spent into a quick fireball or ice storm.
4. They dont have an item of nihil/potency/nullification. I have played on casters before and I know that those items make a ton of difference. I currently have a scepter of greater nullification V and a scepter of superior nihil IV, along with 5 scepters of superior Nihil II, for my touches. They make a difference.

These are just my observations on the common mistakes of pale masters. I also would like to add that I started with 16 con, took both racial toughness enhancments, have an improved false live item on and use bears endurance. With all this, my level 10 has I think 176 hp, give or take. That is enough to withstand any searing light of my level. If I know a quest, I can usually not die. I think that people are trying to make the pale master pre something that it is not. It is not a tankish caster that should go first and tank bosses. It is not a caster oreinted towards dps. It is not a master of the undead and archmages are more effective against undead now anyway (Notice I said now) because My sla and some of my damage is neg energy. They are not a beast with lots of sp that can live on their slas. The g are not a caster that can sit back and watch as their pets do all the work. They are in fact a very versatile, very self suffeciant caster that can use slas for SOME of their damage, that can avoid many ailments with their forms, that can use self healing WHEN THEY HAVE THE SP FOR IT, and that can solo quite well. I think the main problem is, most pale masters I meet are trying to make the class something it's not and they aren't taking the necessary precautions for it.

And I know people say that the pets are terrible, but I think that having 2 summoned pets to take agro, one of which that casts fireballs and firewalls, is gonna be nice. If not, its like 1k to reset enhancments.

Granted, have died a lot and I usually dont get as good kill counts as my archmage brother, but I still would like to think I know what I am talking about. And also, I dont think many pale masters could solo, say, the pit, or xoriat on elite.
.
As far as form of the zombie, I can see why people say it is volatile. I personally think that the light damage is too much, due to searing light already having higher hit die for undead, and that being X2. That means its like times 3.6 or something. But if you're smart, you can avoid light damage. If you keep yourself at full hp before fights and only get hit by 1 searing light, you can survive. The form is not volatile, it just has an overzealous gimp that makes it VERY hard to survive in. If you survive, the form has many great perks that are awesome for an aspiring pm. If not, wait till wraith.

And one of my first toon was a failing pale master who came before zombie form. So a lot of this is my experience on WHY I failed.

Also, a quick question. Does anyone know where I can get a superior nullification VI scepter? I'm gonna need it for when I switch off necrotic ray/bolt, and I dont want to wait till level 16 for superior potency

Jaid314
07-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Also, a quick question. Does anyone know where I can get a superior nullification VI scepter? I'm gonna need it for when I switch off necrotic ray/bolt, and I dont want to wait till level 16 for superior potency

look for superior nihil 6 instead. higher bonus, plus it doesn't use up a hand (though having to turn it back on every 3 minutes can be a bit of a nuisance)

Maelodic
07-16-2011, 03:08 PM
look for superior nihil 6 instead. higher bonus, plus it doesn't use up a hand (though having to turn it back on every 3 minutes can be a bit of a nuisance)

If you switch the nihil out with your lore scepter, it's not that bad, though at later levels you can get lore in different slots.