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Kronik
07-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Please put some sort of safety measures on the guild disband button.

There is absolutely no reason why there are no safety guards to prevent someone from double clicking a button that will disband a guild erasing many hours and dollars worth of effort.

PLEASE ADDRESS THIS ISSUE IMMEDIATLY!

Furthermore, it is irresponsible of Turbine to not only allow this to happen, but to not have a way to recover the lost levels and turbine points spent if this button is accidentally pushed!

I am sure I was not the first person that this happened to and I am discussed that this has been allowed to happen!!!!!

flynnjsw
07-13-2011, 04:56 PM
Exactly what kind of safety measures do you need? The Guild Leader already has to click the "Are you sure you want to Disband this Guild". If that is not enough, then you need to look at your guild leader.

shores11
07-13-2011, 04:59 PM
One Question: How in the world is it Turbine's fault that YOU clicked on the disband button not once but twice to disband your guild?

I know we are in a new world order where people always try and blame someone else for their mistakes but this is a cake topper. The fact that you have to click once and then twice to confirm is in fact a safety measure that is an additional step Turbine added that they did not have to add.

Live, learn and you will prosper as I am sure you will never make this error again. I am a guild leader and any time I click on anything in the guild window I slow down and make sure it is what I want to click on for the very reason that I am hyper-aware of the disband button among other things.

Dirac
07-13-2011, 05:00 PM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.

The OP may be ranting, but losing their entire guild is a pretty big bummer. We probably don't need to dump on them more. The more important the thing, the more barriers one should have to deleting it by accident.

shores11
07-13-2011, 05:01 PM
Exactly what kind of safety measures do you need? The Guild Leader already has to click the "Are you sure you want to Disband this Guild". If that is not enough, then you need to look at your guild leader.

+1 - nice reply

flynnjsw
07-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.

People still complain when they make a mistake with GR/LR/TR as if its Turbine's fault. Personally I say the best safety is personal responsibility, but what the heck do I know?

Hordo
07-13-2011, 05:04 PM
I am sure I was not the first person that this happened to and I am discussed that this has been allowed to happen!!!!!

You sure about that? I've never heard of anyone missing the Are You Sure pop-up.

I call this a Comprehension Check /fail.

Your suggestion is Trayf.

This is not Kosher, as declared by the High Rabbi of DDO.

Dirac
07-13-2011, 05:12 PM
Personally I say the best safety is personal responsibility

Of course it is, and the more important an item is, the more safety measures it has from being destroyed by failures of personal responsibility. This is why you have to re-type your name of your character before you delete it.

Is it the OP's fault the guild disbanded? yes. Is it reasonable to have the same safety measures for guilds as we do for characters? sure.

[edited to be less snarky] The OP clearly endured an enormous bummer. We should probably sympathize even if we don't agree with them.

BitkaCK2
07-13-2011, 05:16 PM
SOLUTION: After you click the "Disband" button you get a pop up box that asks, "Are you sure?". After you click "Yes" you then get a pop up box that asks, "Are you REALLY sure?". When you click "Yes" on this pop up box you get another that asks, "Are you REALLY REALLY sure?". Clicking "Yes" on this box brings up one that asks, "Are you REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY sure?". Clicking "Yes" on this box brings up a final box that says, "I don't believe you." and cancels the disband.

ttfn,
bitkaCK2

AZgreentea
07-13-2011, 05:16 PM
I havent looked recently, but is the Disband button still right next to the Invite button? I think there is already a good way to prevent miss clicks, but it would be nice if Invite and Disband weren't neighbors.

flynnjsw
07-13-2011, 05:29 PM
[quote=Dirac;3922038]Of course it is, and the more important an item is the more safety measures it has from being destroyed by failures of personal responsibility. This is why you have to re-type your name of your character before you delete it.

Is it the OP's fault the guild disbanded? yes.

I don't think so; if you look at the OP's sig, it states they are an Officer, not Guild Leader.


Is it reasonable to have the same safety measures for guilds as we do for characters? sure.

Personally I think the suggestion is fine, but again you will still have people complaining that it is not enough.

I guess I'm also unclear why we need to go out of our way to **** all over the OP, after they clearly endured an enormous bummer, even if we don't agree with them.[

I fail to see where anyone has **** on the OP anywhere. Have people disagreed that Turbine needs to add any code to fix this? Yes they have. Have they attacked the OP? No they have not.

/quote]

Comments in Red

Kronik
07-13-2011, 05:38 PM
The guild Disband button is next to the remove button. I agree that it was my fault for being in such a hurry and double clicking so fast. I had a lot of unused characters to clear. In the process of cleaning house, I hit the wrong button.

So go ahead and bash me all you want, but in my defense, I thought I was disbanding a character from the guild and then clicked too fast. I guess people are fast to accuse rather than understand and help. I have already been punished for my 2 click disaster, forget the fact that I helped build an uber guild and treated everyone with the upmost respect.

I am not here to cry to most of you haters, I’m here to help prevent someone else from suffering the same fate as I. That is why I am shocked that so many are critical of a double click mistake rather than being for a safety measure like character deletion. A guild with a level of 61 is a far worse loss than a level 20 character, that can be undeleted by the way.

And yes, I am now a proud Officer...

Postumus
07-13-2011, 05:50 PM
I fail to see where anyone has **** on the OP anywhere. Have people disagreed that Turbine needs to add any code to fix this? Yes they have. Have they attacked the OP? No they have not.

/quote]

Comments in Red

Yes this thread has been chock full of empathy and understanding to this point. I mean, how does anyone think "YOUDISBANDEDYERGUILDLOLITSYERFAULTDUMBNOOB!!!" comes across as insulting?

I see what you mean.

:P


I feel sorry for the OP. I would certainly expect Turbine to reinstate the guild and guild level in this case for the sake of customer service.

I also think the suggestion of having to actually type in the guild name is a good one. People play this game at odd hours and when they aren't necessarily at the zenith of their mental faculties. Mistakes happen. I think its a good security measure.

flynnjsw
07-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Yes this thread has been chock full of empathy and understanding to this point. I mean, how does anyone think "YOUDISBANDEDYERGUILDLOLITSYERFAULTDUMBNOOB!!!" comes across as insulting?

I see what you mean.

:P


I feel sorry for the OP. I would certainly expect Turbine to reinstate the guild and guild level in this case for the sake of customer service.

I also think the suggestion of having to actually type in the guild name is a good one. People play this game at odd hours and when they aren't necessarily at the zenith of their mental faculties. Mistakes happen. I think its a good security measure.

Just because no one is having a group cry does not mean they are empathetic. People are disagreeing that Turbine needs to do anything further. Period.

Edit; Let me rephrase; I am disagreeing. I can't speak for anyone else.

gloopygloop
07-13-2011, 06:04 PM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.

This makes sense to me.

Tholar
07-13-2011, 06:06 PM
I would like to add more than just type the name. Make it impossible to disband the guild as long as there is more than 1 character in it. That way you actually have to spend a little time killing a guild, even if it is just a few minutes.

Kronik
07-13-2011, 06:06 PM
This makes sense to me.

This makes sence to most except people who like to see others suffer. I guess Turbine is one of them as I know this has happened in the past.

Cholera
07-13-2011, 06:12 PM
I am sure I was not the first person that this happened to and I am discussed that this has been allowed to happen!!!!!


"Disgusted". Yeah, I'm a jerk, I know. Sorry.

Oh yeah:

/signed.

flynnjsw
07-13-2011, 06:12 PM
This makes sence to most except people who like to see others suffer. I guess Turbine is one of them as I know this has happened in the past.

LOL...yeah, Turbine did this just to see you suffer.

BLAKROC
07-13-2011, 06:15 PM
This makes sence to most except people who like to see others suffer. I guess Turbine is one of them as I know this has happened in the past.

oh ya blame it on turbine for the guild leaders mistake, they disbanded it no one else. be upset at that person not turbine or anyone else.

Kronik
07-13-2011, 06:19 PM
oh ya blame it on turbine for the guild leaders mistake, they disbanded it no one else. be upset at that person not turbine or anyone else.

Im not here to blame or ask for anyones sympathy. Im here to make sure that many hours of hard work cannot be erased by a double click!

DO YOU GET IT FOLKS?

Tholar
07-13-2011, 06:52 PM
Im not here to blame or ask for anyones sympathy. Im here to make sure that many hours of hard work cannot be erased by a double click!

DO YOU GET IT FOLKS?

I think most of us do get it and tend to agree with you, including myself. Some of us sympathize, and think it is ok the way it is. Don't let them get to you.

I have to ask though, with a name like Kronik, are you sure you were just tired?

Corwinsky
07-13-2011, 07:15 PM
With lot of other programs (OS, browser, etc) asking for approval for an action to happen (download an item from the web, etc) people are used not to read anymore the "are you sure" messages so I can perfectly see this error happening here.
Guild Leader thinks he's confirming another action (removing a inactive player) and disbands his guild.

Indeed it would make completely sense to ask for the GL to write his name or the name of his guild to confirm that action.
Since typing requires more effort and is unusual to confirm an action than just clicking a button again, if a GL still does it without reading what the outcome will be then it will really have only himself to blame.
************************************************** ********************

If Turbine acknowledges there is a problem here that means they consider a guild level to be valuable to the players.
In which case shouldn't they put some safeguards when a GL tries to voluntary disband his guild as well?

I mean is it fair for the other officers or players that might have brought more favor points, spent more time leading the guild than the guy with the title to have their guild disbanded just because one guy got bored and didn't want to transfer leadership or whatever other reason?

Wouldn't it be better if the disband button actually removed the guild leader from the guild and automatically transferred ownership to someone (including players removed in the last x days) based on a complexe formula that includes time spent in guild, how many favor points they brought, rank, how much pp spent on airship ammenities, etc?

And why not an automatic transfer of leadership if a GL doesn't log on in over x(4) months?
There was a guild on my server that was one of the tops months ago (Fallen Knights level 68, 2nd highest of the server at the time I believe) which just slowly died (it's now somewhere in the 50s when a lot of top guilds are 70+) because the guild leader stopped playing and didn't want to transfer leadership status.

Is a guild really the sole property of a Guild Leader because he gave a parchment to a NPC a while ago?
Games are not just fun, they often educate the younger population on acquiring some very good behaviors (collaboration, persistence, not giving up, being a gracious looser, etc).
Here this games with how guilds are designed teaches them the "my way or the highway" mentality.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:18 PM
Im not here to blame or ask for anyones sympathy. Im here to make sure that many hours of hard work cannot be erased by a double click!

DO YOU GET IT FOLKS?

You are not telling the whole truth what you are not saying is there is a confirmation message that pops up that asks the question "ARE YOU SURE?"

Do you get it?

puget
07-13-2011, 07:26 PM
You are not telling the whole truth what you are not saying is there is a confirmation message that pops up that asks the question "ARE YOU SURE?"

Do you get it?


This is what people are refering to when they say there is no reason to bash anyone. I do believe HE GETS IT, and for some reason, I do NOT believe YOU get it.

How many times did this happen to players characters in the old days before the public outcried enough to get a simple "type the name of the character in the box to confirm" to delete a character.

Not really hard, nor is it asking for too much to get the same thing on your guild disband. In fact, in my opinion, that with "The rise of the guilds" and airships, the fact they did not do this THEN, is frankly totally on the devs shoulders. This is a situation that is NOT new, and the devs should have foreseen this possibility and took actions to prevent it long ago.

Yes, there is a double dialogue. yes, you also have a double dialogue to remove players. Yes, it is quite easy to make the mistake. No, there is not ANY good reason NOT to have to type the name of your guild into a dialogue box to confirm disbanding it.


Not one single good reason to not have that in game already.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:28 PM
The guild Disband button is next to the remove button. I agree that it was my fault for being in such a hurry and double clicking so fast. I had a lot of unused characters to clear. In the process of cleaning house, I hit the wrong button.

So go ahead and bash me all you want, but in my defense, I thought I was disbanding a character from the guild and then clicked too fast. I guess people are fast to accuse rather than understand and help. I have already been punished for my 2 click disaster, forget the fact that I helped build an uber guild and treated everyone with the upmost respect.

I am not here to cry to most of you haters, I’m here to help prevent someone else from suffering the same fate as I. That is why I am shocked that so many are critical of a double click mistake rather than being for a safety measure like character deletion. A guild with a level of 61 is a far worse loss than a level 20 character, that can be undeleted by the way.

And yes, I am now a proud Officer...

If you would have came in here and said this unfortunate error was made by me and maybe additional security besides what is already in place needs to be added. Then offered some productive ideas everyone in this thread might have understood where you were coming from.

The only reason you are getting grief is because you blamed Turbine and not yourself. Does that clarify what is going on here?

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:32 PM
This is what people are refering to when they say there is no reason to bash anyone. I do believe HE GETS IT, and for some reason, I do NOT believe YOU get it.

How many times did this happen to players characters in the old days before the public outcried enough to get a simple "type the name of the character in the box to confirm" to delete a character.

Not really hard, nor is it asking for too much to get the same thing on your guild disband. In fact, in my opinion, that with "The rise of the guilds" and airships, the fact they did not do this THEN, is frankly totally on the devs shoulders. This is a situation that is NOT new, and the devs should have foreseen this possibility and took actions to prevent it long ago.

Yes, there is a double dialogue. yes, you also have a double dialogue to remove players. Yes, it is quite easy to make the mistake. No, there is not ANY good reason NOT to have to type the name of your guild into a dialogue box to confirm disbanding it.

Not one single good reason to not have that in game already.

/not signed

This is not a bash if teh OP just took the blame for himslef and did not blame Turbine. I agree that another dialogue box would be beneficial like to type in your guild name.

However what I do get is that this is not Tirbines nor the developers fault.

Do you get it?

redspecter23
07-13-2011, 07:37 PM
If you are removing multiple inactive players you could very easily make the mistake of rushing through and possibly click the wrong button. If the confirm pop up windows are even remotely similar in style, shape, etc. then it could be extremely easy to accidentally disband a guild. I agree with the poster above in saying there is no good reason to not add more safeguards. Anything to differentiate the procedure from other clicks like remove member. A "type your guild name" box would go a long way to solving the problem. If you're looking to remove player X, you'd be highly unlikely to not notice a different box and then also type the guild name instead of the player name to confirm.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:40 PM
If you are removing multiple inactive players you could very easily make the mistake of rushing through and possibly click the wrong button. If the confirm pop up windows are even remotely similar in style, shape, etc. then it could be extremely easy to accidentally disband a guild. I agree with the poster above in saying there is no good reason to not add more safeguards. Anything to differentiate the procedure from other clicks like remove member. A "type your guild name" box would go a long way to solving the problem. If you're looking to remove player X, you'd be highly unlikely to not notice a different box and then also type the guild name instead of the player name to confirm.

I agree with you and the OP that a type your guild name could or should be added.

I DO NOT agree with the OP that it is TUrbine's fault he disbanded his guild.

puget
07-13-2011, 07:40 PM
/not signed

This is not a bash if teh OP just took the blame for himslef and did not blame Turbine. I agree that another dialogue box would be beneficial like to type in your guild name.

However what I do get is that this is not Tirbines nor the developers fault.

Do you get it?


Oh I totally disagree on that, this scenerio should have been fixed before it was a situation. It ABSOLUTELY is the devs fault, and failure to plan ahead that is what caused this, in thier rush to get new content in-game, they overlook small things, constantly, every single update. Every single one.

And, since it is something the devs dropped the ball on, I would even go so far as to say, that makes it TURBINES fault that it happened, not just this one time, but every other player that has done the exact same thing, do a search, you will find plenty of people that are upset that has made the same mistake, and I personally at least, can relate to the OP as to how it happened, because I had a guild once, and even though I managed to not disband on accident, I had over 100 inactive players I wanted out of the guild.

It is an easy mistake, and I hit the diband button SEVERAL times when removing players, I just got lucky and caught it. Unfortunately the OP missed it, and I can imagine how bad he felt when it happened. Apparently, you in your uberness, cannot fathom what this would feel like, to see months, or even years of hard work go away all because the developers made a small mistake themselves by not having a simple confirm by name dialogue.

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

somehow, I think your uberness will not allow you to get it. I bow to your uberness.

redspecter23
07-13-2011, 07:43 PM
I agree with you and the OP that a type your guild name could or should be added.

I DO NOT agree with the OP that it is TUrbine's fault he disbanded his guild.

Agreed, Turbine didn't press the button. It isn't their fault, but we don't have the power to put more safeguards ourselves. This thread I imagine is a way to bring it to the attention of those that can help put new safeguards in place.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:45 PM
Oh I totally disagree on that, this scenerio should have been fixed before it was a situation. It ABSOLUTELY is the devs fault, and failure to plan ahead that is what caused this, in thier rush to get new content in-game, they overlook small things, constantly, every single update. Every single one.

And, since it is something the devs dropped the ball on, I would even go so far as to say, that makes it TURBINES fault that it happened, not just this one time, but every other player that has done the exact same thing, do a search, you will find plenty of people that are upset that has made the same mistake, and I personally at least, can relate to the OP as to how it happened, because I had a guild once, and even though I managed to not disband on accident, I had over 100 inactive players I wanted out of the guild.

It is an easy mistake, and I hit the diband button SEVERAL times when removing players, I just got lucky and caught it. Unfortunately the OP missed it, and I can imagine how bad he felt when it happened. Apparently, you in your uberness, cannot fathom what this would feel like, to see months, or even years of hard work go away all because the developers made a small mistake themselves by not having a simple confirm by name dialogue.

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

somehow, I think your uberness will not allow you to get it. I bow to your uberness.

Your post is your opinion and that is your right. You trying to post like this is the law and that others should just fall in line is wrong, do you get that?

I am in no way uber but I disagree with your OPINION that it is the developers and Turbine's fault. Do you get that?

If the OP would just read he wouldn't be in this pickle. Do you get that?

gloopygloop
07-13-2011, 07:47 PM
If you would have came in here and said this unfortunate error was made by me and maybe additional security besides what is already in place needs to be added. Then offered some productive ideas everyone in this thread might have understood where you were coming from.

The only reason you are getting grief is because you blamed Turbine and not yourself. Does that clarify what is going on here?

Does the fact that he rageposted instead of calmly making a suggestion make the type-the-name suggestion any less of a good idea?

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:48 PM
Agreed, Turbine didn't press the button. It isn't their fault, but we don't have the power to put more safeguards ourselves. This thread I imagine is a way to bring it to the attention of those that can help put new safeguards in place.

I agree in part that it is in part the target of this thread. But part of it was to blame someone else for his mistake.

puget
07-13-2011, 07:51 PM
Your post is your opinion and that is your right. You trying to post like this is the law and that others should just fall in line is wrong, do you get that?

I am in no way uber but I disagree with your OPINION that it is the developers and Turbine's fault. Do you get that?

If the OP would just read he wouldn't be in this pickle. Do you get that?


When you say that this is not the devs fault, when it is, I mean heck they did an ENTIRE UPDATE for guilds. Nothing but guilds. And you do not feel they made a mistake in this oversight? I can understand, and I can also say "that is your opinion", but it comes down to a simple fact: This problem should have been addressed during that whole big update that gave us guild airships. period. The devs missed it. no biggie, it happens. Now it is time they fix it.

Also, there is the ability to get a character back if you do in fact delete it on accident, but do you get the same thing for a guild? Personally, I do not know, but my understanding is that you do not, ANOTHER oversight by the devs if that is the case, and the devs ARE Turbine, so fault that the mistake was allowed to happen comes to rest on their shoulders. again, my opinion.

Feel free to try for the last word again, You seem to have a complex on that issue.

Gkar
07-13-2011, 07:52 PM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.


While it is 100% the OP's fault... anyone in IT can tell you people don't actually read yes/no dialogues, they just click yes. Given how serious a guild disband is now, Dirac has a reasonable suggestion that is far better than yes/no because it makes you stop and think deliberately, thus getting rid of auto-click-brain.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:52 PM
Does the fact that he rageposted instead of calmly making a suggestion make the type-the-name suggestion any less of a good idea?

No, in fact if you would have read my folowing posts I totally agree that that is a very good idea. But I focused on more than just that one point.

You can say to an organization that you want to feed the hungry and that is a great point and goal.

But if you say to the same organization it is your responsibility to feed the hungry and the fact that you are not means you are evil and soulless.

The second sentence has the same good point about feeding the hungry but would make that organization say get lost.

shores11
07-13-2011, 07:57 PM
When you say that this is not the devs fault, when it is, I mean heck they did an ENTIRE UPDATE for guilds. Nothing but guilds. And you do not feel they made a mistake in this oversight? I can understand, and I can also say "that is your opinion", but it comes down to a simple fact: This problem should have been addressed during that whole big update that gave us guild airships. period. The devs missed it. no biggie, it happens. Now it is time they fix it.

Also, there is the ability to get a character back if you do in fact delete it on accident, but do you get the same thing for a guild? Personally, I do not know, but my understanding is that you do not, ANOTHER oversight by the devs if that is the case, and the devs ARE Turbine, so fault that the mistake was allowed to happen comes to rest on their shoulders. again, my opinion.

Feel free to try for the last word again, You seem to have a complex on that issue. It is funny that you go personal and suggest I have a complex on getting the last word when you do the same thing you are suggesting.

Now your finally saying something I can agree with. Should there have been additional measures in place and could there be in the future, yes. I just have a problem with the OP saying that becuase he ignored the words on a security measure already in place that it is someone elses fault, no it is not.

puget
07-13-2011, 07:57 PM
And, for future refernce, the OP STARTED the thread with "Please put in a safeguard..........."

He did not start off rage posting, but progressed to it, he started off with a very nice polite "Please".

Xenostrata
07-13-2011, 08:11 PM
Your post is your opinion and that is your right. You trying to post like this is the law and that others should just fall in line is wrong, do you get that?

I am in no way uber but I disagree with your OPINION that it is the developers and Turbine's fault. Do you get that?

If the OP would just read he wouldn't be in this pickle. Do you get that?

Tell me honestly. When you have to update a program, do you reread the entire ToS? When you download music and the licensing agreement has changed, do you go through all 63 pages before hitting "I Agree"?
Have you been an officer or leader in a guild and decided to mass-boot all the inactives? If you have, did you honestly stop to read the pop-up box after the fifth time? Tenth? Twentieth?
IIRC, the confirmation for booting comeone and disbanding are PERFECTLY IDENTICAL ui wise, except for the text itself, which could also look similar to a cursory glance.

Something about the internet brings out schaudenfreud in everyone it seems, and there is no reason to accuse the OP for inattentiveness or general stupidity (and your first posts WERE unnecessarily abrassive) when it was clear that anyone who doesn't anal retentively read every word that crosses the screen could make that same mistake.

Of course turbine should be at fault for not putting mor security in. Think about what character deletion would be like without the "type in the name" aspect. There would be at least a post every day where someone clicked on the wrong character.

Try to be a little bit nicer, as a person, and realize that human error is, in fact, common in humans, and don't attack someone for making an understandable mistake.

Medina
07-13-2011, 08:15 PM
Here I thought people learned not to automatically click "yes" on things when they watched the Apple Southpark episode...

Is it his fault? Yes
Is it feasible for Turbine to force you to type in the guild name upon disbanding it? Yes
Should it be required? No

There are already enough broken things that need to be fixed that if this gets "fixed" it's priority should be very low on the scale.

shores11
07-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Tell me honestly. When you have to update a program, do you reread the entire ToS? When you download music and the licensing agreement has changed, do you go through all 63 pages before hitting "I Agree"?
Have you been an officer or leader in a guild and decided to mass-boot all the inactives? If you have, did you honestly stop to read the pop-up box after the fifth time? Tenth? Twentieth?
IIRC, the confirmation for booting comeone and disbanding are PERFECTLY IDENTICAL ui wise, except for the text itself, which could also look similar to a cursory glance.

Something about the internet brings out schaudenfreud in everyone it seems, and there is no reason to accuse the OP for inattentiveness or general stupidity (and your first posts unnecessarily abrassive) when it was clear that anyone who doesn't anal retentively read every word that crosses the screen could make that same mistake.

Being Honest:

I do not read the entire Terms of Service. However reading 63 pages is different than reading one popup.

I am the guild leader of my guild that is currently level 63 and yes I have removed members that have been inactive for 3 months or more as that is our guild policy. Yes, I have removed as many as 12-15 characters at one time and yes I read the pop up box every single time it comes up.

Lastly yes, I have never clicked on disband even once much less twice as I am very aware of where it is.

shores11
07-13-2011, 08:19 PM
Here I thought people learned not to automatically click "yes" on things when they watched the Apple Southpark episode...

Is it his fault? Yes
Is it feasible for Turbine to force you to type in the guild name upon disbanding it? Yes
Should it be required? No

There are already enough broken things that need to be fixed that if this gets "fixed" it's priority should be very low on the scale.

This is your message and I agree with it in its entirity.

Kronik
07-13-2011, 08:19 PM
I agree with you and the OP that a type your guild name could or should be added.

I DO NOT agree with the OP that it is TUrbine's fault he disbanded his guild.

Thank you for agreeing with me that a type guild name could and should be added. That is the only reason for this post.

For the Record; I am a total Noob and Iidiot! It was my fault for not taking my time in deleting non-playing characters. It was a complete screw up on my part for not being more careful. And as others here have mentioned. It wasnt the first time I accidentally clicked Disband, it is easy to do.

I would also ask to please re-read my post and see that I am mad that Turbine currently allows a double click, and yes the second click asks "if im sure", to erase many many hours, friends lost, money wasted without a safeguard. Im sorry if I sound like I am blaming anyone, but with so much to lose, it is unfathamable to me that they would allow it to happen. Again I will not blame anyone for my mistake, but why make disbanding an entire guild with many players effected so easy to do?

And No they cannot and will not restore the guild or level or anything. 2 Clicks and your guild is gone!

Kronik
07-13-2011, 08:27 PM
And, for future refernce, the OP STARTED the thread with "Please put in a safeguard..........."

He did not start off rage posting, but progressed to it, he started off with a very nice polite "Please".

Thank you for your understanding Puget. I could not have explained it better than your previous posts...Cheers!

puget
07-13-2011, 08:32 PM
Thank you for agreeing with me that a type guild name could and should be added.

For the Record; I am a total Noob and Iidiot! It was my fault for not taking my time in deleting non-playing characters. It was a complete screw up on my part for not being more careful. And as others here have mentioned. It wasnt the first time I accidentally clicked Disband, it is easy to do.

I would also ask you please re-read my post and see that I am mad that Turbine currently allows a double click, and yes the second click ask "if im sure", to erase many many hours, friends lost, money wasted without a safeguard. Im sorry if I sound like I am blaming anyone, but with so much to lose, it is unfathamable to me that they would allow it to happen.

And No they cannot restore the guild or level or anything. 2 Clicks and your guild is gone!


I however DO blame Turbine. This is an oversight BY TURBINE DEVELOPERS. It should not even be an issue, with the number of months that they spent making (I keep thinking it was U7) "The Rise of the Guilds" update, not one single time did they think of this? That is the most pathetic part of the situation to me, that they got in such a rush to push content, they dropped the ball on something so easy, so minor, and yet so important.

And then it is compounded by the fact that they can restore characters that DO REQUIRE you type in the name, but they do not restore guilds that SHOULD HAVE the same requiremnt for disbanding.

Not hard, I would think they could do it in a day if they chose, but, like they dropped the ball in the new Tower of the Twelve and didn't add a farshifter to Vale, they dropped the ball on this as well.

Blame falls on the devs that this is even REMOTELY allowed to happen "on accident", and further that there is no possibility of a restore.

Had there been a "type the guild name to confirm" dialogue box, and you STILL did it on accident, then yes, I would be saying what others are, READ.

There is not, the remove player/disband guild are not only identical, but right next to one another. Even if they just seperated the UI's for them, you click on something like "remove inactive members" and the only options you get are remove player/are you sure with no other choices in the UI for that, click player name, click confirm, then this wouldn't happen because you would have to choose a different box that is not combined with the same identical option to disband.

Kronik
07-13-2011, 09:14 PM
Puget,

To be honest the buttons are not right next to each other...but they are close. It can still be confusing.

I just wanted to present all the facts since people around here will try and use that to discredit your argument. I can tell that you do in fact "get it" and I do not want others to change the topic again.

I can see how people would think I am trying to blame eveyone but myself here, but like I said I have already accepted the fact that I screwed up. I have already suffered the consequences for my mistake, now lets all move forward and make this game a better experience for everyone.

Again my intention here is to get a simple fix to an obvious problem. I would not want anyone to experience the hell I've been through for a such an avoidable and non-game related mistake.

puget
07-13-2011, 09:42 PM
Puget,

To be honest the buttons are not right next to each other...but they are close. It can still be confusing.

I just wanted to present all the facts since people around here will try and use that to discredit your argument. I can tell that you do in fact "get it" and do not want others to change the topic again.

I can see how people would think I am trying to blame eveyone but myself here, but like I said I have already accepted the fact that I screwed up. I have already suffered the consequences for my mistake, now lets all move forward and make this game a better experience for everyone.

Again my intention here is to get a simply fix to an obvious problem. I would not want anyone to experience the hell I've been through for a simple mistake.

There is not a buffer between ANY of the options on the guild chopices, every time you come off one button, you are instantly on another. Any simple click on the wrong tab results in a wrong choice. Promote, Demote, Succesor are all things that the player can undo swiftly and easily. There is NO buffer on the disband tab. None. it is simply a click and "are you sure you want to disband your guild" yes/no. Exact same as "are you sure you want to boot <insert name here>, yes/no.

While I commend you on the clarification, anyone with a tad bit of sense should be able to understand the problem is not so much that, but in the fact that disband, resign, and remove all have the exact same options on a misclick, and when, as you stated in a previous post, a guild leader is mas removing inactives, you get in a hurry, and misclick, and the yes/no dialogue is very similar, and after about 15 or 20 of them, you just hit yes.

There could be a slight buffer between the various buttons, a place where you can't click, but, as in when you click "add" you get a box requiring you type in a name to extend a guild invite. The oversight of Turbine, after spending so many months on this massive update to the game specifically for guilds, to not take into account that this not only happens now, but has been a problem for far longer than this update I refer to has been in existence, is purely on Turbines shoulders.

And it is compounded by the fact that you can get a character restore (which I fell should NOT be allowed because you physically have to type in the characters name you wish to delete) but not a GUILD restore when there IS NO additional "we want to make sure this is correct, please type your guild name to disband" on the disbanding, is why I am on your side here.

People can flame you all they want, but the fact of the matter is, for Turbine to NOT think of this, when they were counting on making a sh*t ton of revenue from players buying astrals, hookpoints, TP's, etc, is just completely stupid on Turbines part, and makes me personally feel as if they are going the route of Blizturd, and all they give a rats buttocks about is NOT the players, but their pocketbook. Whatever it takes for them to get players to spend money, forget about the fact they don't want to sopend their money twice, that is irrelevant, they want it at least once.

So yes, I stand by the fact that this problem exists, and resides PURELY on Turbines shoulders. Yes, players can make a mistake, get in a rush, and assume they are hitting yes to what they are doing, and have been doing for 5, 10, 15 minutes, but all it takes is one single misclick, and you just lost EVERYTHING.

You are not the first to have this happen. I t has been brought up in the forums before. It should have been fixed long ago, but Turbine is only after money, not player happiness anymore.

There was a time with Turbine when player happiness in the game was very close to the top of the priority list. Not anymore.

That is my opinion, and I will stand behind it, I do NOT feel you did ANYTHING wrong, not even getting in a rush, as In my opinion, you should have a SPECIFIC UI for your guild where you can set it to auto boot players that have been inactive for <xx> number of days. That would also lessen this problem, but I think typing the guild name to disband is by FAR the best idea.

I do hope everything works out for you, and I do feel for you on your loss, like I said, almost did it several times doing EXACTLY the same thing you were doing when it happened to you.

Just don't hold your breath that Turbine gies a rats buttocks and will fix this, they may make less money on guild charters if they do.

DoctorWhofan
07-13-2011, 09:51 PM
Please put some sort of safety measures on the guild disband button.

There is absolutely no reason why there are no safety guards to prevent someone from double clicking a button that will disband a guild erasing many hours and dollars worth of effort.

PLEASE ADDRESS THIS ISSUE IMMEDIATLY!

Furthermore, it is irresponsible of Turbine to not only allow this to happen, but to not have a way to recover the lost levels and turbine points spent if this button is accidentally pushed!

I am sure I was not the first person that this happened to and I am discussed that this has been allowed to happen!!!!!


Thank you for agreeing with me that a type guild name could and should be added. That is the only reason for this post.

For the Record; I am a total Noob and Iidiot! It was my fault for not taking my time in deleting non-playing characters. It was a complete screw up on my part for not being more careful. And as others here have mentioned. It wasnt the first time I accidentally clicked Disband, it is easy to do.

I would also ask to please re-read my post and see that I am mad that Turbine currently allows a double click, and yes the second click asks "if im sure", to erase many many hours, friends lost, money wasted without a safeguard. Im sorry if I sound like I am blaming anyone, but with so much to lose, it is unfathamable to me that they would allow it to happen. Again I will not blame anyone for my mistake, but why make disbanding an entire guild with many players effected so easy to do?

And No they cannot and will not restore the guild or level or anything. 2 Clicks and your guild is gone!


hmmm...sorry, Iread your OP as an anger fill hate towards Turbine. Glad you have changed your tune. Because it is the TONE of how you said in the OP that ruffled feathers. Especially in this part of the forums.

I agree that a name type in for guild disband makes sense. You should have just asked for that in the beginning.

stille_nacht
07-13-2011, 10:00 PM
You sure about that? I've never heard of anyone missing the Are You Sure pop-up.

I call this a Comprehension Check /fail.

Your suggestion is Trayf.

This is not Kosher, as declared by the High Rabbi of DDO.

a then level 63 guild (loreseekers) did this on khyber once :P

puget
07-13-2011, 10:01 PM
hmmm...sorry, Iread your OP as an anger fill hate towards Turbine. Glad you have changed your tune. Because it is the TONE of how you said in the OP that ruffled feathers. Especially in this part of the forums.

I agree that a name type in for guild disband makes sense. You should have just asked for that in the beginning.


He did, and it even started with the very first word being "Please".

His first sentance was exactky what you said he SHOULD have done, and it just prgressed into a disgusted explanation. And Myself, you, and near everyone if this had happened to THEM would be as equally disgusted.

Everyone keeps bashing him for going on a rage rant, when his VERY FIRST POST starting this thread was "please" add something so this doesn't happen.

after that, he allowed his frustration to seep through, and that is completely understandable.

How would you feel had it happened to you? Would you have even bothered using "please" as the first word in your thread? Most players would NOT have.

Kronik
07-13-2011, 10:04 PM
I agree that a name type in for guild disband makes sense. You should have just asked for that in the beginning.

I saw the error of my post after the fact. I had actually intended to post a more direct request without letting my emotions get in the way, but in the end they got the better of me.

I think Puget is right though, cause I already spent money, which I rarely do, to make it up to the guildies who did stick around. Naw, turbine offered me no solution, just told me that they can and wont do anything about it. After my second ticket I was treatened with harrassment.

Thanks for understanding though, my original intention was to get the suport of the players to fix this problem so others would not do the same thing. I knew my individual request would go unheard, so I Man'd up and brought it here. I was about 1 post away from losing it on some of these other posters but know that responding to those type of people will not acomplish what I am here for.

Thanks again for understanding. I learned a thing or two about my TONE so all and all the thread was worth it.

And again I was not blaming anyone, just angry that this CAN happen.

gloopygloop
07-13-2011, 10:10 PM
a then level 63 guild (loreseekers) did this on khyber once :P
I thought they just deleted their airship?

puget
07-13-2011, 10:11 PM
I saw the error of my post after the fact. I had actually intended to post a more direct request without letting my emotions get in the way, but in the end they got the better of me.

I think Puget is right though, cause I already spent money, which I rarely do, to make it up to the guildies who did stick around. Naw, turbine offered me no solution, just told me that they can and wont do anything about it. After my second ticket I was treatened with harrassment.

Thanks for understanding though, my original intention was to get the suport of the players to fix this problem so others would not do the same thing. I knew my individual request would go unheard, so I Man'd up and brought it here. I was about 1 post away from losing it on some of these other posters but know that by responding to those type of people will not acomplish what I am here for.

Thanks again for understanding. I learned a thing or two about mt TONE so all and all the thread was worth it.

And again I was not blaming anyone, just angry that this could happen.


Threatening you with harrasment goes right back to what I said in a previous post, that Turbine is going the way of blizturd, they care less and less about the player, and only about the players' wallet, and how much they can extract from said wallet.

BitkaCK2
07-14-2011, 12:45 AM
I saw the error of my post after the fact. I had actually intended to post a more direct request without letting my emotions get in the way, but in the end they got the better of me.

I think Puget is right though, cause I already spent money, which I rarely do, to make it up to the guildies who did stick around. Naw, turbine offered me no solution, just told me that they can and wont do anything about it. After my second ticket I was treatened with harrassment.

Thanks for understanding though, my original intention was to get the suport of the players to fix this problem so others would not do the same thing. I knew my individual request would go unheard, so I Man'd up and brought it here. I was about 1 post away from losing it on some of these other posters but know that responding to those type of people will not acomplish what I am here for.

Thanks again for understanding. I learned a thing or two about my TONE so all and all the thread was worth it.

And again I was not blaming anyone, just angry that this CAN happen.

Fair enough (and +1). The idea of typing in the guild's name before disband is a good one. I think some of the rancor came from blaming Turbine for the misfortune. Now matter how hard a company tries to predict the mis-clicks of its customers there will be some that slip through the cracks. Perhaps the lesson here is that no company should under estimate their consumer's ability to make a mistake... wouldn't that be perfect..... *puppies*.... *rainbows*.... *working craf...* slap slap. Sorry. Sorry. I drifted for a moment. Where was I? Ah yes perfection, hmmmm beer, pasta and Dr Who coming up.

ttfn,
bitkaCK2

Beld
07-14-2011, 01:04 AM
Oh I totally disagree on that, this scenerio should have been fixed before it was a situation. It ABSOLUTELY is the devs fault, and failure to plan ahead that is what caused this, in thier rush to get new content in-game, they overlook small things, constantly, every single update. Every single one.

And, since it is something the devs dropped the ball on, I would even go so far as to say, that makes it TURBINES fault that it happened, not just this one time, but every other player that has done the exact same thing, do a search, you will find plenty of people that are upset that has made the same mistake, and I personally at least, can relate to the OP as to how it happened, because I had a guild once, and even though I managed to not disband on accident, I had over 100 inactive players I wanted out of the guild.

It is an easy mistake, and I hit the diband button SEVERAL times when removing players, I just got lucky and caught it. Unfortunately the OP missed it, and I can imagine how bad he felt when it happened. Apparently, you in your uberness, cannot fathom what this would feel like, to see months, or even years of hard work go away all because the developers made a small mistake themselves by not having a simple confirm by name dialogue.

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

somehow, I think your uberness will not allow you to get it. I bow to your uberness.

So you blame the devs for 'rushing' and 'overlooking small things' and yet the OP gets a pass for 'rushing' and 'overlooking small things' ?? While I do sympathize, this mistake can be prevented by slowing down a bit and paying attention to what you are doing and clicking. Offering solutions to make this process less likely, ok, blaming Turbine for lack of attentiveness, IMO is way out of line.

puget
07-14-2011, 01:25 AM
So you blame the devs for 'rushing' and 'overlooking small things' and yet the OP gets a pass for 'rushing' and 'overlooking small things' ?? While I do sympathize, this mistake can be prevented by slowing down a bit and paying attention to what you are doing and clicking. Offering solutions to make this process less likely, ok, blaming Turbine for lack of attentiveness, IMO is way out of line.

Firstly, there is a reason that the devs use a red BORDER as a surrounding color, and not for their text, and due to your eye hurting color scheme, I read the first sentance or so only.

Yes, the player gets the pass for rushing, because after clicking Remove, and then yes to "are you sure" moe than a single time, as he stated, he wass deleting all inactives, and unles you have done this, you actually should not have even commented, just my opinion, and if you have, then you know full well, you just click yes to things after several times. So yes, he gets a pass, and the second reason for this is quite simple: The devs are the ONLY PEOPLE that are able to fix these things, and they are the ones that are supposed to ensure this kind of thing does not happen. This is not deleting a character that THEY CAN RESTORE! This is deleting an ENTIRE GUILD! Regardless of whether it is level 6, or level 75, it does not matter. Players invest real world time, money, and effort to get these things. Now, if there was an option, or even the ABILITY to restore said guid with EVERY item, ship, shrine, buff, and level it lost, then ok, MAYBE I could understand the whole "learn to read" crud you flamers spout.

Now, (I googled it too btw, it is update 5) with the entire 6 month update (I listened to the TTH podcast interview a bit ago) for "the rise of the guild" If the devs did not even take this happenstance into consideration, and apply measures to ENSURE it could NOT BE ACCIDENTALLY DONE, then absolutely, Turbine Inc dropped the ball, more specifically, the devs that are entrusted with thesae things, dropped the ball and it falls on Turbines' shoulders as the boss of them. Period.

You are entitled to your opinion, and that is fine, I just prefer to look at the facts.

DDO devs made having a guild/being IN a guild vastly more powerful. DDO devs wrote, programmed, coded and applied an ENTIRE update devoted to making the benefits of joining a guild vastly greater than playing without one. DDO devs should have truly taken the accidental into consideration, mostly, because DDO devs made the guild UI and already knew EXACTLY everything about it, more so than the players.

DDO devs dropped the ball, and missed something, hey, it happens every single update.

It is time to fix this problem. add a dialogue box that requires you to type in your guild name to complete the disbanding of the guild. period. that is the BEST suggestion posted in this thread. And yes, by NOT doing this with U5, they dropped the ball. Period. Really, who plans, programs and initiates a major content update devoted ONLY to guilds, and makes this oversight? Other than DDO, because they prove the point.

Postumus
07-14-2011, 02:10 AM
hmmm...sorry, Iread your OP as an anger fill hate towards Turbine. Glad you have changed your tune. Because it is the TONE of how you said in the OP that ruffled feathers. Especially in this part of the forums.


His tone didn't ruffle my feathers. Nor any of the feathers of the posters who were sympathetic to his plight.


His OP was a frustrated outburst at Turbine, and rightfully so, b/c of the poor design that allowed a simple mis-click to permanently erase his guild. I think the people with empathy and understanding got that, while the snark pigeons waiting in the wings to defecate on any and every post they can pretend to take umbrage with just dogpiled.

mournbladereigns
07-14-2011, 03:00 AM
While it is 100% the OP's fault... anyone in IT can tell you people don't actually read yes/no dialogues, they just click yes. Given how serious a guild disband is now, Dirac has a reasonable suggestion that is far better than yes/no because it makes you stop and think deliberately, thus getting rid of auto-click-brain.

^This^ is a good suggestion.

As to the OP, are you sure you want to make this post y/n/lolz

Letrii
07-14-2011, 03:04 AM
Do you click same button twice or does a window pop up on different part of screen to click on?

elixer1
07-14-2011, 07:47 AM
Exactly what kind of safety measures do you need? The Guild Leader already has to click the "Are you sure you want to Disband this Guild". If that is not enough, then you need to look at your guild leader.

Bingo. I've disbanded a guild before, it's not an easy thing to accidentally do.

Jiirix
07-14-2011, 08:00 AM
"Error!
The Guild 'Big Cash Mercs' has been disbanded and the page is no longer available"

OK, thats is bad and I can feel with the guild members. That you had to type in the guild's name to delete it would make sence. But that it's only a click and an other click to confirm doesn't make it Turbines's fault that the guild is gone now imho. Or is an "doulbleclick" really enough? You have to move the mouse to the confirm button, right?

puget
07-14-2011, 08:07 AM
"Error!
The Guild 'Big Cash Mercs' has been disbanded and the page is no longer available"

OK, thats is bad and I can feel with the guild members. That you had to type in the guild's name to delete it would make sence. But that it's only a click and an other click to confirm doesn't make it Turbines's fault that the guild is gone now imho. Or is an "doulbleclick" really enough? You have to move the mouse to the confirm button, right?


actually, you have to accidentally hit the disband button, but the pop up window hits in the EXACT same spot on your screen as the one for booting a player from the guild. and in both cases, there is a yes/no confirm box to click on, and when those boxes show in the exact same spot on the screen, and you are mass deleting inactive players, and you are used to seeing something different in the wording since every player you are removing has a different name in the confirm to boot box, it is very, very esy to not realize you hit the not only the disband button, but yes to that confirm box.

I got tired of people bashing on the OP, the OP made an oversight, so did the developers, like I said before, it happens, it is just time to make it so it cannot happen so easily now on this subject.

PNellesen
07-14-2011, 08:10 AM
Having made my share of mistakes in my life, I really sympathize with the OP. I also think having to type in the guild name before deletion is a good compromise; 2 quick mouse clicks, when you've done 2 or 3 character deletions in a row, can happen before you realize what you've done if you're distracted or not paying attention. Having to actually type something breaks that "click - click - click" flow.

/signed for "Enter guild name for final confirmation"

cdbd3rd
07-14-2011, 08:13 AM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.
....

/Sidestepping all the icky mucky stuff...

Having never disbanded a guild with more than one of my single characters in it, I'd never given the button sequence any real thought.
The 'type name to confirm' dialog box would be a good thing.

That's all I have to say about that.

:)

Elyanna
07-14-2011, 08:25 AM
There have been 2 fails here.

1) Turbine failed to make sure that the person who clicked the Disband Guild button really wanted to do just that. They could easily remedy this by adding a "Please type the guild name below to DISBAND your guild" dialog box. And yes I do suggest strongly that the word disband is in all capital letters.

2) The OP failed a reading check and a patience check. When I was guild leader and was doing cleanup, before guild renown and levels, I always made sure to do it really slow. This way I was sure I was doing what I wanted to do. I also made sure to let my guildies know what I was doing and not to bother me while doing it so I wouldn't make a mistake. A little bit of personal responsibility in the process sure does make it go a lot smoother.

adam1oftheround
07-14-2011, 08:29 AM
Hope a safety type guild name is made for this.

In the event that your spouse or kid is just clicking while you are afk, the type guild name is appropriate. I know how easy it is to single click ( buy out button on Auction House used to be close to the next page button: millions of plat wasted that way ) or greater teleport to foot hills of Titan popping up close to loot all button. Clicking twice does happen less often, but if mad clicking in combat and you bring up guild window, .....

Thlargir
07-14-2011, 09:08 AM
I DO NOT agree with the OP that it is TUrbine's fault he disbanded his guild.

The reason that Turbine has to share some responsibility for this disaster (for the OP and his guildies) is that they knew about the potential problem and fixed it in one area and not in another. Not only did they fix it for character deletion but they also provided a means of reversing the effects. In the case of guild deletion (arguably a more damaging failure when applied inadvertently) they did neither.

It seems to me that the issue is not black and white, but we can discuss the shade of gray.

Luckily, the solution to preventing this type of thing in the future seems agreed upon, if not its priority.

Kronik
07-14-2011, 10:42 AM
There have been 2 fails here.

1) Turbine failed to make sure that the person who clicked the Disband Guild button really wanted to do just that. They could easily remedy this by adding a "Please type the guild name below to DISBAND your guild" dialog box. And yes I do suggest strongly that the word disband is in all capital letters.

2) The OP failed a reading check and a patience check. When I was guild leader and was doing cleanup, before guild renown and levels, I always made sure to do it really slow. This way I was sure I was doing what I wanted to do. I also made sure to let my guildies know what I was doing and not to bother me while doing it so I wouldn't make a mistake. A little bit of personal responsibility in the process sure does make it go a lot smoother.

I totally agree with this! I am not blaming anyone for my mistake, but I am asking that Turbine fixes the problem! I admit one of my faults is that I sometimes click too quick without taking my time. Apparently that makes me a bad guild leader to some.

Never mind me though, this thread is not for me, it is for others players and my guild mates who suffered for my lack of patience. Imagine if you went to log in to play and your guild was gone and it want even your fault. It is the guild members who suffer most. That is why I am asking Turbine to protect them from clumsy Iidiots like me. Believe me I know it is my fault, ask some of my ex-guildies…

Battlehawke
07-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Disrespectful..

Kronik
07-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Do you really want to be in a guild where the leader clicks disband, then confirms it. He/she is a jerk, incrediby stupid or has no respect for the people in his/her guild. I'm not talking about your guild leader specifically, just my thoughts on any person that would do such a thing.

Thanks for the insightful comment, but the point of this thread is to get a saftey guard on the guild disband button, not to judge me as a guild leader.

If you have read this thread you would see that we have already concluded that I am all of the above so lets move on and work on a solution or debate if one is even needed.

herzkos
07-14-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't believe that changing the disband function is necessary.
If guild renown/friends in game/whatever is so important to the player then they
shouldn't be rushing through. even in the case where you are booting 30 inactives
from the guild. the verification pop-up is there for a reason: ensure that you are
doing what you want to. Even when booting 30 players, you need to read each pop up to
ensure that you are booting the player that you intend to boot. If you don't, that shows the
respect you have for your fellow guildies.
Frankly, if people don't read pop-up confirmation messages then
they get what they deserve.

If you cannot differentiate between "are you sure you want to remove charlie from your guild" and
"are you sure you want to disband your guild" then it's not turbines fault. It's not poor coding, planning,
developing or anything else. It is simply failure to pay attention to detail.

you can make it foolproof but you can't make it damnfoolproof.
/edit not calling anyone a fool or a damnfool, it's a phrase from my customer service days/endedit

/not signed

Cyr
07-14-2011, 12:47 PM
I think a dialogue box to type in the name of the guild to delete it would be reasonable.

puget
07-14-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't believe that changing the disband function is necessary.
If guild renown/friends in game/whatever is so important to the player then they
shouldn't be rushing through. even in the case where you are booting 30 inactives
from the guild. the verification pop-up is there for a reason: ensure that you are
doing what you want to. Even when booting 30 players, you need to read each pop up to
ensure that you are booting the player that you intend to boot. If you don't, that shows the
respect you have for your fellow guildies.
Frankly, if people don't read pop-up confirmation messages then
they get what they deserve.



/not signed

Then I move we also have the confirmation dialog removed from the delete character as well. Because apparently, if people delete their character without reading the pop-up when they ARE NOT mass removing people, then they should be just as penalized for their incongruous actions as well.

Fortunately, Turbine does not see that issue that way, and they should not see this issue the same way.

What you obviously do not understand here, is the pop up to boot a player from the guild changes wording with every character name in it, it has a secondary confirm, and it pops up on the =screen in the EXACT same spot as the disband guild confirmation.

After several times of doing the "remove player" ARE you sure you want to boot <player name> from your guild? y/n, the "are you sure you want to disband your guild? y/n" can look very similar to booting players.

Agreed, take it slow. Not agreed: Turbine changing the disband function is unnecessary.

I will say again, Turbine dropped the ball when they spent 6 months making the whole "rise of the guilds" Update 5, and in that 6 months of development, how could they make an oversight of this magnitude when this update was directly to make being in guilds better, more powerful, and more appealing to players, so much so, that they BUY with REAL CASH items and turbine points for these guilds to make them even more appealing.

And to top it off, they cannot even give him a restore of his guild, not even for a fee, which I am willing to bet he would have probably paid $50.00 to get his guild back. I know if I were in his shoes, I would have.

Saying "he gets what he deserves" is not a fair statement either. Not when you sit and really think about WHY/HOW could they have missed adding 1 simple minor thing to the game with update 5 to ensure this could not be "accidental"

What do you say to the players that STILL delete their characters to this day, even though they HAVE to type in a confirm, yet they say it was an accident, and get a restore? Do you think that is fair? I sure don't, And I would not be in favor a restoring a guild either if you HAD to make that extra step to truly disband.

Elyanna
07-14-2011, 02:20 PM
I will say again, Turbine dropped the ball when they spent 6 months making the whole "rise of the guilds" Update 5, and in that 6 months of development, how could they make an oversight of this magnitude when this update was directly to make being in guilds better, more powerful, and more appealing to players, so much so, that they BUY with REAL CASH items and turbine points for these guilds to make them even more appealing.

If I recall the only things that changed on the guild panel during that update were the addition of the guild's renown and level. The MotD might have changed too graphicly since it's in that area. The member list and buttons didn't change if I recall. So that's the functionality that has been there since the begining of guilds if I recall.

Would that have been a good time to add this option? Sure. But as is always said, hindsight is 20/20.

It's rare we hear this action happening so I doubt it would get a high priority to be added even if it wouldn't take long to do so. Then again with guild ship amenities and the buying of charters in the store it might get a higher priority. I don't know Turbines way of prioritizing things so I can't be 100% sure on how high this would end up.

elraido
07-14-2011, 02:29 PM
I have seen some people do weird stuff when they are drunk! :eek:

puget
07-14-2011, 02:31 PM
If I recall the only things that changed on the guild panel during that update were the addition of the guild's renown and level. The MotD might have changed too graphicly since it's in that area. The member list and buttons didn't change if I recall. So that's the functionality that has been there since the begining of guilds if I recall.

Would that have been a good time to add this option? Sure. But as is always said, hindsight is 20/20.

It's rare we hear this action happening so I doubt it would get a high priority to be added even if it wouldn't take long to do so. Then again with guild ship amenities and the buying of charters in the store it might get a higher priority. I don't know Turbines way of prioritizing things so I can't be 100% sure on how high this would end up.


I am not too sure that even Turbine knows the way they prioritize things, lol. In listening to thier TTH podcast, they said they have a backlog of fixes that go back to launch, the problem is just time to get it all done. I am sure this "fix" has been on their list somewhere for a long time, but it really does need to be addressed, and if not in a confirm dialog you haev to enter text into, then by means of offering a restore of the guild (but this would take such MASSIVE amounts of memory and storage I can understand why they do not offer a guild restore).

I may sound like I am dumping on Turbine, and really I am not, I have said several times that there are oversights in every update, it happens, not one single person, nor a team of 300 can catch everything, I just feel this quite a HUGE oversight.

And if I remember right, U5 gave us airships, guild renown, and they keep adding more to the list almost every update as well, usually always have something added no matter how small it is i the way of amenities. But I could be wrong there.

Ugumagre
07-14-2011, 02:39 PM
Well, it could be worse...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/nukenurse.gif

theboyftw
07-14-2011, 02:42 PM
There have been 2 fails here.

1) Turbine failed to make sure that the person who clicked the Disband Guild button really wanted to do just that. They could easily remedy this by adding a "Please type the guild name below to DISBAND your guild" dialog box. And yes I do suggest strongly that the word disband is in all capital letters.

2) The OP failed a reading check and a patience check. When I was guild leader and was doing cleanup, before guild renown and levels, I always made sure to do it really slow. This way I was sure I was doing what I wanted to do. I also made sure to let my guildies know what I was doing and not to bother me while doing it so I wouldn't make a mistake. A little bit of personal responsibility in the process sure does make it go a lot smoother.

the third fail is a bunch of you are pretentious, self-righteous and not at all helpful. the OP had a valid point and was upset by what transpired and a bunch of you went out of your way to be less than decent towards him.

Elyanna
07-14-2011, 02:45 PM
the third fail is a bunch of you are pretentious, self-righteous and not at all helpful. the OP had a valid point and was upset by what transpired and a bunch of you went out of your way to be less than decent towards him.

Kind of funny that the OP actually agreed with me a few posts later though. So I guess I didn't offend them like I did you.

Elyanna
07-14-2011, 02:46 PM
Well, it could be worse...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/nukenurse.gif

Genesis' "Land of Confusion" video?

puget
07-14-2011, 02:49 PM
There have been 2 fails here.

1) Turbine failed to make sure that the person who clicked the Disband Guild button really wanted to do just that. They could easily remedy this by adding a "Please type the guild name below to DISBAND your guild" dialog box. And yes I do suggest strongly that the word disband is in all capital letters.

2) The OP failed a reading check and a patience check. When I was guild leader and was doing cleanup, before guild renown and levels, I always made sure to do it really slow. This way I was sure I was doing what I wanted to do. I also made sure to let my guildies know what I was doing and not to bother me while doing it so I wouldn't make a mistake. A little bit of personal responsibility in the process sure does make it go a lot smoother.


I actually totally agreed with this post that was quoted in such a manner as to make it seem as if it was an attack when it in fact was not.

It WAS the combination of the 2 that caused the issue, but if 1) had been in place, then 2) would not have happened on acident.

+1 to you for the comment I quoted, but you got that +1 last night.

rdasca
07-14-2011, 02:58 PM
OP I feel for you; but why would Turbine fix this?

You spent time in game and real money leveling and buying things for your guild, now you will do so again, Turbine wins twice.

While I would love to believe that the poor over worked devs simply forgot to add in a "type name" to delete function into the process, but I stopped believing in fairy tales long ago.

Maybe I will be proved wrong and they will correct this oversight, I just do not see the bean counters allowing them to do so.

BTW, the difference between character and guild deletion, is simple; "astral diamonds" show me one guild that has pulled enough astral diamonds to get a better ship without spending any TPs for them, and I will show you a group of people I want to go to Vegas with.

herzkos
07-14-2011, 03:05 PM
Then I move we also have the confirmation dialog removed from the delete character as well. Because apparently, if people delete their character without reading the pop-up when they ARE NOT mass removing people, then they should be just as penalized for their incongruous actions as well.

Fortunately, Turbine does not see that issue that way, and they should not see this issue the same way.

What you obviously do not understand here, is the pop up to boot a player from the guild changes wording with every character name in it, it has a secondary confirm, and it pops up on the =screen in the EXACT same spot as the disband guild confirmation.

After several times of doing the "remove player" ARE you sure you want to boot <player name> from your guild? y/n, the "are you sure you want to disband your guild? y/n" can look very similar to booting players.

Agreed, take it slow. Not agreed: Turbine changing the disband function is unnecessary.

I will say again, Turbine dropped the ball when they spent 6 months making the whole "rise of the guilds" Update 5, and in that 6 months of development, how could they make an oversight of this magnitude when this update was directly to make being in guilds better, more powerful, and more appealing to players, so much so, that they BUY with REAL CASH items and turbine points for these guilds to make them even more appealing.

And to top it off, they cannot even give him a restore of his guild, not even for a fee, which I am willing to bet he would have probably paid $50.00 to get his guild back. I know if I were in his shoes, I would have.

Saying "he gets what he deserves" is not a fair statement either. Not when you sit and really think about WHY/HOW could they have missed adding 1 simple minor thing to the game with update 5 to ensure this could not be "accidental"

What do you say to the players that STILL delete their characters to this day, even though they HAVE to type in a confirm, yet they say it was an accident, and get a restore? Do you think that is fair? I sure don't, And I would not be in favor a restoring a guild either if you HAD to make that extra step to truly disband.

I say to them the same thing i say to you and to all others: If it matters to you, take the time to read and
understand before acting.

as to the undelete of the character thing. when i delete a character, i'm sure i want to delete it and don't even
pay attention to the name i type. For added security, they shouldn't even put the name you want to delete
in the box. you should be able to remember what character you want to delete from the time you click delete
until the confirmation dialog shows up.

trying to stay on point here. the answer is not more foolproofing the answer is personal responsibility.

Beld
07-14-2011, 03:06 PM
Firstly, there is a reason that the devs use a red BORDER as a surrounding color, and not for their text, and due to your eye hurting color scheme, I read the first sentance or so only.

Yes, the player gets the pass for rushing, because after clicking Remove, and then yes to "are you sure" moe than a single time, as he stated, he wass deleting all inactives, and unles you have done this, you actually should not have even commented, just my opinion, and if you have, then you know full well, you just click yes to things after several times. So yes, he gets a pass, and the second reason for this is quite simple: The devs are the ONLY PEOPLE that are able to fix these things, and they are the ones that are supposed to ensure this kind of thing does not happen. This is not deleting a character that THEY CAN RESTORE! This is deleting an ENTIRE GUILD! Regardless of whether it is level 6, or level 75, it does not matter. Players invest real world time, money, and effort to get these things. Now, if there was an option, or even the ABILITY to restore said guid with EVERY item, ship, shrine, buff, and level it lost, then ok, MAYBE I could understand the whole "learn to read" crud you flamers spout.

Now, (I googled it too btw, it is update 5) with the entire 6 month update (I listened to the TTH podcast interview a bit ago) for "the rise of the guild" If the devs did not even take this happenstance into consideration, and apply measures to ENSURE it could NOT BE ACCIDENTALLY DONE, then absolutely, Turbine Inc dropped the ball, more specifically, the devs that are entrusted with thesae things, dropped the ball and it falls on Turbines' shoulders as the boss of them. Period.

You are entitled to your opinion, and that is fine, I just prefer to look at the facts.

DDO devs made having a guild/being IN a guild vastly more powerful. DDO devs wrote, programmed, coded and applied an ENTIRE update devoted to making the benefits of joining a guild vastly greater than playing without one. DDO devs should have truly taken the accidental into consideration, mostly, because DDO devs made the guild UI and already knew EXACTLY everything about it, more so than the players.

DDO devs dropped the ball, and missed something, hey, it happens every single update.

It is time to fix this problem. add a dialogue box that requires you to type in your guild name to complete the disbanding of the guild. period. that is the BEST suggestion posted in this thread. And yes, by NOT doing this with U5, they dropped the ball. Period. Really, who plans, programs and initiates a major content update devoted ONLY to guilds, and makes this oversight? Other than DDO, because they prove the point.

Please don't mistake your own 'opinion' for anything resembling 'facts'. You did not program the system, you did not participate in the implementation and you were not involved in any discussions. While I have already stated that I sympathize, I have also stated that the same broad brush strokes you and others are using to paint Turbine could indeed be used to paint the individuals that have made this error (furthermore, the OP has even acknowledged the mistake was his).

I have no horse in this race, I do have a guild, it is a small guild and is just my family, but even when I was a member/officer of a larger guild, I PAID ATTENTION to what I was clicking, and also read the dialogue boxes associated with those clicks.

Playing devil's advocate, what if during this massive 'click fest' instead of disbanding the guild, several members had been 'accidentally' removed, resulting in loss of renown/guild level/rewards? Would that then precipitate a thread about typing in the toon name to remove from guild?? Personal responsibility is at it's core, personal...asking a third party to save you from yourself as it were, is, again IN MY OPINION, a fail.

Phemt81
07-14-2011, 03:06 PM
Yes this thread has been chock full of empathy and understanding to this point. I mean, how does anyone think "YOUDISBANDEDYERGUILDLOLITSYERFAULTDUMBNOOB!!!" comes across as insulting?


You forgot "ITS5S5S5S DA THEEEEEEEFT YOU THIEF (grand)THEEEFT (auto)!!!111!!!1!1!0!

R-O-F-L

Battlehawke
07-14-2011, 03:11 PM
When you make make a post on the forums, you open up a dialogue to others opinions. I think we all understand the magnitude of what happened and all sympithize with your guildies. What happened is unacceptable and irresponsible. To click confirm and not bother to read it is unacceptable. It would be great if Turbine placed more barriers to prevent this, and perhaps they will. However, it won't matter if people don't read what they are doing, or have a moment of hostility that they later regret. Whatever happened, I'm sure you regret, however when you brought it onto these forums, you should have expected others opinions, even if they are completly wrong. Your hostilities and rages are clear. However, you wil not get anywhere yelling at your fellow players and being condesending to them.

puget
07-14-2011, 03:12 PM
Please don't mistake your own 'opinion' for anything resembling 'facts'. You did not program the system, you did not participate in the implementation and you were not involved in any discussions. While I have already stated that I sympathize, I have also stated that the same broad brush strokes you and others are using to paint Turbine could indeed be used to paint the individuals that have made this error (furthermore, the OP has even acknowledged the mistake was his).

I have no horse in this race, I do have a guild, it is a small guild and is just my family, but even when I was a member/officer of a larger guild, I PAID ATTENTION to what I was clicking, and also read the dialogue boxes associated with those clicks.

Playing devil's advocate, what if during this massive 'click fest' instead of disbanding the guild, several members had been 'accidentally' removed, resulting in loss of renown/guild level/rewards? Would that then precipitate a thread about typing in the toon name to remove from guild?? Personal responsibility is at it's core, personal...asking a third party to save you from yourself as it were, is, again IN MY OPINION, a fail.

I actually got a great chuckle here. So what you are saying, is that by NOT having the safeguard in place so this cannot happen, Turbine should get a free pass on "personal responsibility" as well?

Your point about deleting a character and losing renown actually has no basis, those are things you can get back. period. You CANNOT get your guild back from this.

Is there some comparison you have that is an actual comparison? Is this your stand on back in the day when characters were accidentally deleted until a safeguard was put into effect as well?

Gkar
07-14-2011, 03:22 PM
Please don't mistake your own 'opinion' for anything resembling 'facts'. You did not program the system, you did not participate in the implementation and you were not involved in any discussions. While I have already stated that I sympathize, I have also stated that the same broad brush strokes you and others are using to paint Turbine could indeed be used to paint the individuals that have made this error (furthermore, the OP has even acknowledged the mistake was his).

I have no horse in this race, I do have a guild, it is a small guild and is just my family, but even when I was a member/officer of a larger guild, I PAID ATTENTION to what I was clicking, and also read the dialogue boxes associated with those clicks.

Playing devil's advocate, what if during this massive 'click fest' instead of disbanding the guild, several members had been 'accidentally' removed, resulting in loss of renown/guild level/rewards? Would that then precipitate a thread about typing in the toon name to remove from guild?? Personal responsibility is at it's core, personal...asking a third party to save you from yourself as it were, is, again IN MY OPINION, a fail.

I think you have demonstrated your lack of understanding of how a larger guild works.

First off its hard to reinvite 100 different people you no longer have the names of after an accidental disband.

Accidentally kicking one character out of a guild doesn't have that problem since people tend to have more than one character so getting them back is easy.

I you disband your guild, 100% of all guild renown is permanently lost. Your ship, which you may have paid REAL MONEY for is gone, anything in your guild chests is gone.

If you accidentally delete one character in error you lose 20% (25%?) of that one character's renown - a tiny drip in the bucket of total guild renown for a guild of any size. No real harm is done.

Does that help you understand the difference between the impact of these two buttons? One is serious, one is not.

It is not unreasonable to put some control on the one that could lead to serious problems.

Kronik
07-14-2011, 03:27 PM
OP I feel for you; but why would Turbine fix this?

You spent time in game and real money leveling and buying things for your guild, now you will do so again, Turbine wins twice.

While I would love to believe that the poor over worked devs simply forgot to add in a "type name" to delete function into the process, but I stopped believing in fairy tales long ago.

Maybe I will be proved wrong and they will correct this oversight, I just do not see the bean counters allowing them to do so.

BTW, the difference between character and guild deletion, is simple; "astral diamonds" show me one guild that has pulled enough astral diamonds to get a better ship without spending any TPs for them, and I will show you a group of people I want to go to Vegas with.

Im with you on this one.

Kronik
07-14-2011, 03:36 PM
When you make make a post on the forums, you open up a dialogue to others opinions. I think we all understand the magnitude of what happened and all sympithize with your guildies. What happened is unacceptable and irresponsible.

Agreed!

The reason I brought it to the forms was to make people aware that this can happen. I know I am getting a lot of heat for this as I should, but I still don’t think it is a good idea to not have safe guards on anything that can cause so much damage.

There are lots of fixes that DDO needs, but none that I can think of can cause this much damage!

zukt
07-14-2011, 03:37 PM
OP I feel for you; but why would Turbine fix this?

You spent time in game and real money leveling and buying things for your guild, now you will do so again, Turbine wins twice.

Or... Turbine loses several players to frustration that decide they need to spend more time doing real life work rather than playing a silly game, and Turbine at the very best breaks even. Respect Hanlon's Razor; this was an oversight by the development team in all likelihood, and it would be cheap and smart to fix it to keep customers.

Beld
07-14-2011, 03:40 PM
I think you have demonstrated your lack of understanding of how a larger guild works.

First off its hard to reinvite 100 different people you no longer have the names of after an accidental disband.

Accidentally kicking one character out of a guild doesn't have that problem since people tend to have more than one character so getting them back is easy.

I you disband your guild, 100% of all guild renown is permanently lost. Your ship, which you may have paid REAL MONEY for is gone, anything in your guild chests is gone.

If you accidentally delete one character in error you lose 20% (25%?) of that one character's renown - a tiny drip in the bucket of total guild renown for a guild of any size. No real harm is done.

Does that help you understand the difference between the impact of these two buttons? One is serious, one is not.

It is not unreasonable to put some control on the one that could lead to serious problems.

If I pay REAL MONEY for things, I tend to take a responsibility to ensure that what I am doing, is what I should be doing.

EVERYTHING that was lost can be re-attained....does it hurt, absolutely, a mistake was made, and since it is in human nature to usually have to have PAINFUL lessons for them to ultimately stick, this is a lesson that will remain.

There is control in place, you have to confirm your intention with a dialogue box that says 'Are you really sure you want to disband your guild' versus 'Are you sure you want to boot <Player>'. Further, the buttons are seperated by THREE OTHER BUTTONS, so the mis-click argument is looking thin on that front as well.

Personal responsibility, whether it pertain to me deleting my characters or me disbanding a mega-guild is serious to me.

In closing, the control is already in place....whether you like it or not, it is there, and adding another level, while making this occurance far less likely, is not Turbine's responsibility, no matter which way you try to spin this.

I have been playing this game for almost 5 years, on 5 different accounts. My wife plays, my two oldest kids play, a couple of cousins play and my disabled uncle is giving it a try, I still don't expect Turbine to hold my hand so I have no responsibility for my own actions.

I can empathize (I think I have already stated this) and I can understand the level of frustration, truly I can. What I cannot get on board with is another area of society/interaction where someone else is expected to hold our hands and 'save us' from ourselves. If anything, I adhere more to the other way of thinking. I never deleted a toon 'by accident' before that change, and I have not since because I PAY ATTENTION because it is important to me.

cdbd3rd
07-14-2011, 03:42 PM
I have to ask those who seem to be vehemently opposed to the name-text-confirm box, for whatever reason...

How often do you intentionally disband a guild?
And therefore how often would this dialog box affect you personally?

(Gonna guess the answer to both of those questions is something along the lines of "hardly ever.")


The basic code for the confirm box is already done. Just have to integrate it to the code for the Disband button. Little effort, little time.
Them not taking the time to do something like this won't get <insert your game item of interest here> available any sooner. ;)

rdasca
07-14-2011, 03:44 PM
Or... Turbine loses several players to frustration that decide they need to spend more time doing real life work rather than playing a silly game, and Turbine at the very best breaks even. Respect Hanlon's Razor; this was an oversight by the development team in all likelihood, and it would be cheap and smart to fix it to keep customers.

I perfer Heinlein's Razor.

cdbd3rd
07-14-2011, 03:47 PM
... while making this occurrence far less likely, is not Turbine's responsibility, no matter which way you try to spin this....


I do have to finally reply to this kind of thinking.


During GUI design, it absolutely is taken into consideration what an average user might mess up on, and to try and keep the design as safe from mishap as possible.

I believe the basic idea was summed up as, "Code your UI to be idiot-proof, but presented in such a way as to not imply the user is an idiot."

There is a certain level of responsibly on the designers behalf so make as sure as possible misclicks cannot happen.

Beld
07-14-2011, 03:47 PM
I actually got a great chuckle here. So what you are saying, is that by NOT having the safeguard in place so this cannot happen, Turbine should get a free pass on "personal responsibility" as well?

Your point about deleting a character and losing renown actually has no basis, those are things you can get back. period. You CANNOT get your guild back from this.

Is there some comparison you have that is an actual comparison? Is this your stand on back in the day when characters were accidentally deleted until a safeguard was put into effect as well?

Actually, there have been other threads regarding absent guild leaders and other RL issues that precipitated either starting over, or recovering from something like this. It is a game, you can recover EVERYTHING lost except play time and money....but seriously, what else would you be using either for anyway if this is the TRAGEDY that you are fervently attempting to make it.

And again, there is a safeguard in place, you own personal choice not to read or not to comprehend is in no way the responsibility of Turbine, Inc.

We can agree to disagree on this issue, it is fine with me, I am not ever going to delude myself into thinking my opinion is the right one, or even should be the right one, but I am convinced it is the right one FOR ME.

When you bring this kind of thing to the forums, you have to expect some dissenting opinions, if you don't expect them, then maybe the internet is not the venue for this kind of thing.

ONCE MORE, I sympathize with the OP, I do, I empathize with his guild mates, they are the 'victims' in this. But instituting MORE things to lessen personal responsibility is one of the big reasons why we as a general society have many of the more pressing problems we have now.

Analogy, the banking industry that almost destroyed the economy here in America a few years back, the EXACT ARGUMENT was used by them....if the government had made it harder for us to be crooks and liars, this would never have happened. This is that argument, someone please save me from myself, so I don't have to worry about it.

Kronik
07-14-2011, 03:49 PM
I have to ask those who seem to be vehemently opposed to the name-text-confirm box, for whatever reason...

How often do you intentionally disband a guild?
And therefore how often would this dialog box affect you personally?

(Gonna guess the answer to both of those questions is something along the lines of "hardly ever.")


The basic code for the confirm box is already done. Just have to integrate it to the code for the Disband button. Little effort, little time.
Them not taking the time to do something like this won't get <insert your game item of interest here> available any sooner. ;)

Exactly! Thank you for your post!

puget
07-14-2011, 03:58 PM
If I pay REAL MONEY for things, I tend to take a responsibility to ensure that what I am doing, is what I should be doing.

EVERYTHING that was lost can be re-attained....does it hurt, absolutely, a mistake was made, and since it is in human nature to usually have to have PAINFUL lessons for them to ultimately stick, this is a lesson that will remain.

There is control in place, you have to confirm your intention with a dialogue box that says 'Are you really sure you want to disband your guild' versus 'Are you sure you want to boot <Player>'. Further, the buttons are seperated by THREE OTHER BUTTONS, so the mis-click argument is looking thin on that front as well.

Personal responsibility, whether it pertain to me deleting my characters or me disbanding a mega-guild is serious to me.

In closing, the control is already in place....whether you like it or not, it is there, and adding another level, while making this occurance far less likely, is not Turbine's responsibility, no matter which way you try to spin this.

I have been playing this game for almost 5 years, on 5 different accounts. My wife plays, my two oldest kids play, a couple of cousins play and my disabled uncle is giving it a try, I still don't expect Turbine to hold my hand so I have no responsibility for my own actions.

I can empathize (I think I have already stated this) and I can understand the level of frustration, truly I can. What I cannot get on board with is another area of society/interaction where someone else is expected to hold our hands and 'save us' from ourselves. If anything, I adhere more to the other way of thinking. I never deleted a toon 'by accident' before that change, and I have not since because I PAY ATTENTION because it is important to me.


Your opinion, and that is fine. However I tend to disagree as to the personal responsibility part, that is a two way street, you see, If you owned a store for instance, and sold an item, and that item turned out to be broken due to some oversight by YOU, I would hope you would attempt to make that right with the customer to KEEP that customer.

Now, by the same token, if you had taken safeguards to ensure that item COULD NOT get broken before you sold it, then you would have taken responsibility before selling it, and you may/may not make it right at your leisure.

Now, if the customer bought the item, took it home, accidentally dropped it, and came back and BLAMED YOU for it being broken, I could see where you would get upset and tell said customer to take responsibility for his actions.

The OP is NOT blaming Turbine for his predicament, in fact, he has said several times this is totally his fault. But I kinda am because this has been brought up before, this scenario has happened before, and a simple fix could be put into place, heck, they could even hotfix it in when they get the crafting hall fixed if they would just spend the time doing it.

Also of note, I lay in windowed mode, and I use mouselook, so I cannot understand why my mouse somehow often winds up off my screen, I also OFTEN misclick dialogue on NPC's, and rather than open the bank, I accidentally click exit. It happens. It happens to you, it happens to ALL of us. And since when is being too safe a problem? On Turbines part, and on the players part, there is some portion of "personal responsibility" to go to BOTH of them for the issue.

Since this really would not affect your guild anyway, why ARE you so against a confirm by text to disband your guild? You have no horse in this, so I just cannot understand why you think it is a bad idea.

Are both sides to blame for this issue, as far as I am concerned, yes. Is one more to blame than the other, as far as I am concerned, yes. Why you may ask? Because the people that program the game by all means should have caught this in Update 5. The only way I would not put the larger part of the blame on Turbine is if the player is the one that did the programming.

Beld
07-14-2011, 03:58 PM
I do have to finally reply to this kind of thinking.


During GUI design, it absolutely is taken into consideration what an average user might mess up on, and to try and keep the design as safe from mishap as possible.

I believe the basic idea was summed up as, "Code your UI to be idiot-proof, but presented in such a way as to not imply the user is an idiot."

There is a certain level of responsibly on the designers behalf so make as sure as possible misclicks cannot happen.

And having the disband button surrounded by the successor button and the resign button would not be considered at the very least, idiot-tolerant?

Additionally, having a pop-up box that very explicitly asks if you are 'really sure you want to disband your guild' could not also be considered the same?

Not arguing for arguments sake, but for every thing like this that gets implemented, pretty soon, there are going to be people asking for Turbine to build their toons/provide them gear/etc because they paid money and shouldn't be held responsible for choices that were made.

In closing, since I guess I have gotten enough neg rep for today (or maybe not, guess it depends on how long this drags out) I see EVERYONE asking for Turbine to be more responsible so players don't have to be responsible AT ALL and I disagree with this on a principle level.

Sorry to hear about your guild, I really am. It still does not change 'my opinion' that this is something that should be far down the list as it is not a mechanic that is truly 'broken'.

Cordovan
07-14-2011, 03:58 PM
Please keep the discussion to the original topic, and not insult or attack each other.

Winter_storm
07-14-2011, 03:59 PM
New law
can't drink and click on a computer without breathing into a straw that attaches to the computer. anything past Doah! is not allowed..... :D

Beld
07-14-2011, 04:04 PM
Your opinion, and that is fine. However I tend to disagree as to the personal responsibility part, that is a two way street, you see, If you owned a store for instance, and sold an item, and that item turned out to be broken due to some oversight by YOU, I would hope you would attempt to make that right with the customer to KEEP that customer.

Now, by the same token, if you had taken safeguards to ensure that item COULD NOT get broken before you sold it, then you would have taken responsibility before selling it, and you may/may not make it right at your leisure.

Now, if the customer bought the item, took it home, accidentally dropped it, and came back and BLAMED YOU for it being broken, I could see where you would get upset and tell said customer to take responsibility for his actions.

The OP is NOT blaming Turbine for his predicament, in fact, he has said several times this is totally his fault. But I kinda am because this has been brought up before, this scenario has happened before, and a simple fix could be put into place, heck, they could even hotfix it in when they get the crafting hall fixed if they would just spend the time doing it.

Also of note, I lay in windowed mode, and I use mouselook, so I cannot understand why my mouse somehow often winds up off my screen, I also OFTEN misclick dialogue on NPC's, and rather than open the bank, I accidentally click exit. It happens. It happens to you, it happens to ALL of us. And since when is being too safe a problem? On Turbines part, and on the players part, there is some portion of "personal responsibility" to go to BOTH of them for the issue.

Since this really would not affect your guild anyway, why ARE you so against a confirm by text to disband your guild? You have no horse in this, so I just cannot understand why you think it is a bad idea.

Are both sides to blame for this issue, as far as I am concerned, yes. Is one more to blame than the other, as far as I am concerned, yes. Why you may ask? Because the people that program the game by all means should have caught this in Update 5. The only way I would not put the larger part of the blame on Turbine is if the player is the one that did the programming.

1) I work in a service industry....I have for years and years....I sell products ALL THE TIME. If I sold something and it was DEFECTIVE, you bet, I would stand behind the product and replace it no questions asked.

If I sell a product, put in reasonable safeguards, ie a pop up dialogue, and it gets broken by the user/buyer. No, I do not have a responsibility to ensure the safeguards are used or the product is not mis-used.

I am not against the text box 'per se', I am against the idea that Turbine has a responsibility to 'save us from ourselves' as it were. I don't care how many times you are clicking to remove peeps, or do guild maintenance, or toon maintenance for that matter. The onus is on YOU to ensure you follow the safeguards that are already in place. Failure to utilize these safeguards does not magically transfer the responsbility of not putting in MORE safeguards off to someone else.

As I stated earlier in response, I am not going to change your mind, and my opinion is not going to change either, so we agree to disagree....I hope you get what you want. When you do, and there finally becomes 'text boxes' for selling items, transferring loot in chests, feat selection, whatever...this is the top of that slippery slope.

puget
07-14-2011, 04:08 PM
1) I work in a service industry....I have for years and years....I sell products ALL THE TIME. If I sold something and it was DEFECTIVE, you bet, I would stand behind the product and replace it no questions asked.

If I sell a product, put in reasonable safeguards, ie a pop up dialogue, and it gets broken by the user/buyer. No, I do not have a responsibility to ensure the safeguards are used or the product is not mis-used.

I am not against the text box 'per se', I am against the idea that Turbine has a responsibility to 'save us from ourselves' as it were. I don't care how many times you are clicking to remove peeps, or do guild maintenance, or toon maintenance for that matter. The onus is on YOU to ensure you follow the safeguards that are already in place. Failure to utilize these safeguards does not magically transfer the responsbility of not putting in MORE safeguards off to someone else.

As I stated earlier in response, I am not going to change your mind, and my opinion is not going to change either, so we agree to disagree....I hope you get what you want. When you do, and there finally becomes 'text boxes' for selling items, transferring loot in chests, feat selection, whatever...this is the top of that slippery slope.

You are comparing apples to oranges again, you do not seem to grasp the fact that everything you are saying are things that can ALREADY be undone. selling items, gee there is a buyback option, transferring loot, gee you can just have the person transfer it back before they loot, feats, you can exchange, enhancements you can reset, characters you can get a recovery for a fee.

Accidentally disbanding a guild is PERMANENT. No recovery, no recourse. notta.

cdbd3rd
07-14-2011, 05:01 PM
... for every thing like this that gets implemented, pretty soon, there are going to be people asking for Turbine to build their toons/provide them gear/etc because they paid money and shouldn't be held responsible for choices that were made.....


I don't like extra steps any more than most folks, but extra security on things that are permanent/irreversible I can live with - especially on stuff folks may use maybe once every couple/few years.

Thlargir
07-14-2011, 08:25 PM
Reading this thread reminds me of an idea to improve traffic safety:

Rather than requiring that vehicles be safe, with bumpers, crumble zones, air bags, seatbelts and the like; instead get rid of all that and require numerous 12" blades to be fitted to the dashboard facing driver and passenger.

After a brief spike (sorry couldn't help it) in fatalities overall road safety would be much better...

herzkos
07-15-2011, 03:44 AM
I have to ask those who seem to be vehemently opposed to the name-text-confirm box, for whatever reason...

How often do you intentionally disband a guild?
And therefore how often would this dialog box affect you personally?

(Gonna guess the answer to both of those questions is something along the lines of "hardly ever.")


The basic code for the confirm box is already done. Just have to integrate it to the code for the Disband button. Little effort, little time.
Them not taking the time to do something like this won't get <insert your game item of interest here> available any sooner. ;)

I've disbanded 5 or 6 guilds intentionally in the 4+ years i've been playing. So it would affect me personally
about 1.25-1.5 times a year.
more importantly (to me anyway) the number of times i have unintentionally disbanded guilds in the same time
is 0. incidentally this is the same number of characters i've deleted unintentionally.

with all the drama, I think i'd vastly prefer if they just took out the disband button altogether.
Since folks are now able to spend turbine points directly for the guild, the only thing that should happen
is a text dialog saying, "are you sure you want to boot yourself from the guild?".
let the guild leader leave if he/she is no longer satisfied with the guild. While they may have some
sentimental attachment to the name, the guild leader should no longer be able to evict everyone en masse
who paid into the guild. they would retain the right to kick each person individually however.

Ugumagre
07-15-2011, 04:07 AM
Genesis' "Land of Confusion" video?

Yes!! Ding-Dong!
I love that video, so long ago and still like it.

Elyanna
07-15-2011, 07:45 AM
Yes!! Ding-Dong!
I love that video, so long ago and still like it.

I love that video also. Heck I skipped my senior prom to go see them in concert on the tour for said album.

Those who went to the prom told me I made the better decision :)

shores11
07-15-2011, 08:17 AM
I totally agree with this! I am not blaming anyone for my mistake, but I am asking that Turbine fixes the problem! I admit one of my faults is that I sometimes click too quick without taking my time. Apparently that makes me a bad guild leader to some.

Never mind me though, this thread is not for me, it is for others players and my guild mates who suffered for my lack of patience. Imagine if you went to log in to play and your guild was gone and it want even your fault. It is the guild members who suffer most. That is why I am asking Turbine to protect them from clumsy Iidiots like me. Believe me I know it is my fault, ask some of my ex-guildies…

Who decides that there have been enough safety measures before they stop blaming someone else if something is done that they regret doing?

So Turbine has one safety measure in place now with the pop "Are you Sure" message. So Turbine adds another safety (so called) measure and it happens again someone somewhere still manages to delete their guild.

Does the people that are saying that there is currently not enough safety measures in place now say that we have enough. But we all know there will be a few more still say additional safety measures are not enough that there need to be even more. What of the people that say there are enough in place now, do they get to say its Turbine's fault that they went over board on the safety measures.

Make no mistake Turbine could be generous and offer another level of security before disbanding a guild but in no way at all was this error Turbine's fault or its developers. They did there job.

Galeria
07-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Wow. Just wow.

It would be heartbreaking to lose a guild you spent time, effort and money building. Even if you did it yourself in a thoughtless moment. Absolutely heartbreaking. My condolences.

And there's nothing wrong with asking Turbine to improve the process by putting in something as simple as confirming by typing in the guild name for extra confirmation... that's already a standard for character deletion.

The OP did a great job of stating a need without ranting, simply bringing to light an issue that could be easily improved to prevent someone else from having the same issue. And he got totally stomped on.

Wow.

Robai
07-15-2011, 11:18 AM
Probably re-typing the name of the guild, like you need to do to delete a character, is a good idea.

...
The more important the thing, the more barriers one should have to deleting it by accident.

Agreed.

dragons1ayer74
07-15-2011, 11:26 AM
I could see this happening in my main guild. The leader sometimes just rushes along and clicks stuff without reading. I am in support of a big warning message with a please type your guild name in to destroy your guild also if a successor is chosen they should have to confirm the destruction of the guild.

Thrudh
07-15-2011, 11:26 AM
There is not a buffer between ANY of the options on the guild chopices, every time you come off one button, you are instantly on another. Any simple click on the wrong tab results in a wrong choice. Promote, Demote, Succesor are all things that the player can undo swiftly and easily. There is NO buffer on the disband tab. None. it is simply a click and "are you sure you want to disband your guild" yes/no. Exact same as "are you sure you want to boot <insert name here>, yes/no.

While I commend you on the clarification, anyone with a tad bit of sense should be able to understand the problem is not so much that, but in the fact that disband, resign, and remove all have the exact same options on a misclick, and when, as you stated in a previous post, a guild leader is mas removing inactives, you get in a hurry, and misclick, and the yes/no dialogue is very similar, and after about 15 or 20 of them, you just hit yes.

There could be a slight buffer between the various buttons, a place where you can't click, but, as in when you click "add" you get a box requiring you type in a name to extend a guild invite.

This is all good... The rest of your post, where you started frothing at the mouth about how it's all Turbine's fault, and how stupid they are, and how they don't care anyway... not so good...

In fact, pretty terrible.. You had a good post going... but then you ruined it...

Anyway, I can see how this happened, and I support the adding of typing in the guild name to delete, just like a character delete.

Kalari
07-15-2011, 11:48 AM
Wow lots of testy people weighing in on this. I would love to have a safe guard put up. As someone who is in a guild of drinkers its a small fear ive always had in the back of my mind. Ive done some weird things after a raid bender including crafting nightmares (sighs at my lost larges) I try not to handle much administrative stuff but you never know and it would be nice to have some kinda prevention from a double click accident.

Look we can all make judgements or we can come up with solutions that make it where stuff like this is preventable. I know Kronik ran with him a couple of times back in the day he dont need my defending but I can understand his upset originally. It wasnt that he was blaming Turbine but think about how you would feel being responsible for losing all your guilds work? Even if he didnt catch it from his guild mates for the loss the weight of that alone would have been very upsetting to me.

So not saying you have to be his best friend just cut the guy some slack it had to be rough on him and I am definitely for guild safety measures.

puget
07-15-2011, 12:44 PM
I've disbanded 5 or 6 guilds intentionally in the 4+ years i've been playing. So it would affect me personally
about 1.25-1.5 times a year.
more importantly (to me anyway) the number of times i have unintentionally disbanded guilds in the same time
is 0. incidentally this is the same number of characters i've deleted unintentionally.

with all the drama, I think i'd vastly prefer if they just took out the disband button altogether.
Since folks are now able to spend turbine points directly for the guild, the only thing that should happen
is a text dialog saying, "are you sure you want to boot yourself from the guild?".
let the guild leader leave if he/she is no longer satisfied with the guild. While they may have some
sentimental attachment to the name, the guild leader should no longer be able to evict everyone en masse
who paid into the guild. they would retain the right to kick each person individually however.


This idea has alot of merit as well, and I totally agree with you about those that have paid not losing what they donated into the coffers if the leader were to leave. The only drawback I could see was if a guild leader that wanted to leave did not name a successor and tried to screw the guild for the 90 days I think it is they have to wait.

Fix that issue at the same time, so the next longest player in the guild were auto named and I could get on board with your suggestion as well, it is also very good.

puget
07-15-2011, 12:48 PM
This is all good... The rest of your post, where you started frothing at the mouth about how it's all Turbine's fault, and how stupid they are, and how they don't care anyway... not so good...

In fact, pretty terrible.. You had a good post going... but then you ruined it...

Anyway, I can see how this happened, and I support the adding of typing in the guild name to delete, just like a character delete.

Oh I hear you, I get upset at people that say it is ALL the players fault when it is not, he made a mistake and hit the wrong button, the devs made a mistake and missed adding a buffer when they did U5. It is not completely the players fault, it is not completely Turbines fault, personal responsibility goes in both directions on this subject.

countfitz
07-15-2011, 01:56 PM
SO, I haven't read since the flame wars started around, oh, page 1, second post... (kidding, made it to the second page actually...)

But if someone mentioned this, sorry...

SOUTHPARK DID AN ENTIRE EPISODE ON THIS POINT!

And if South Park did it... I think we know the OP is right. Sorry everyone else. You've lost your flame war.

/signed

Edit: It was called the Human CentiPad, you should all watch it

Tholar
07-15-2011, 01:57 PM
If you are truly afraid of this happening again.

I have an idea to self create a buffer while we wait for the developers to fix this issue.

1) Give leadership of your guild to one of your "mule" characters, this is one you hardly ever bring on.

2) Only use him to promote members to officers, or to kick out officers.

I can't see most guilds having to boot officers very often, so you will only be booting members which any officer can do. Be careful when you boot officers with your mule character, and this should be a problem of the past.

Phemt81
07-15-2011, 03:24 PM
Yes!! Ding-Dong!
I love that video, so long ago and still like it.

If you like the song you should see(listen) this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV4oYkIeGJc

*sorry for the offtopic*

Beld
07-15-2011, 10:42 PM
maybe I need to re-clarify....I am not opposed to the additional safety measure of requiring the guild name to be entered before disbanding...it really does not matter to me.

What I have been opposed to, and will remain, is blaming someone else for a mistake, albiet a terrible one, that was made. That is my argument and as such, if it offends anyone, I sincerely apologize for that.

At the end of the day, it is a game...nothing more, nothing less. Will putting this additional safeguard in place correct this issue...probably not completely, there is still the issue of a griefing GF/BF, a buddy playing around...a child not understanding, etc. But it will make it far less likely, which is a good thing, no arguments from me there.

Sorry to have derailed the discussion earlier, I did not express myself very well apparently and for that, I can only say, I will attempt to do better in the future.

Good Luck with rebuilding and re-establishing your guild and I hope most of your mates came/will come back :cool:

shores11
07-15-2011, 11:56 PM
Wow. Just wow.

It would be heartbreaking to lose a guild you spent time, effort and money building. Even if you did it yourself in a thoughtless moment. Absolutely heartbreaking. My condolences.

And there's nothing wrong with asking Turbine to improve the process by putting in something as simple as confirming by typing in the guild name for extra confirmation... that's already a standard for character deletion.

The OP did a great job of stating a need without ranting, simply bringing to light an issue that could be easily improved to prevent someone else from having the same issue. And he got totally stomped on.

Wow.

Wow, just Wow

You don't call flaming on Turbine in the OP about how it is their fault a rant? What do you consider a rant?

puget
07-16-2011, 02:56 AM
Wow, just Wow

You don't call flaming on Turbine in the OP about how it is their fault a rant? What do you consider a rant?

I actually believe that was ME doing the flaming on turbine, not so much the OP, and i still feel the same way, it was a minor detail on a major content update that was FOR GUILDS, that has caused more than just the OP's guild to be "accidentally" deleted.

Again, that 'personal responsibility' train is running two trains head on on the same track on the issue.

The OP made a mistake, that was made worse by the fact the devs forgot to put in that failsafe with update 5.

keyword......forgot, same as the OP forgot he needed to be sure to read and re-read the dialoge box.

On a side note, I watched the above mentioned southpark episode tonight, and it was freaking hilarious, I know I am going to be reading all the terms and conditions I click ok to from now on, no feeding me feces.......especially not the asparagus type.

puget
07-16-2011, 03:12 AM
One Question: How in the world is it Turbine's fault that YOU clicked on the disband button not once but twice to disband your guild?

I know we are in a new world order where people always try and blame someone else for their mistakes but this is a cake topper. The fact that you have to click once and then twice to confirm is in fact a safety measure that is an additional step Turbine added that they did not have to add.

Live, learn and you will prosper as I am sure you will never make this error again. I am a guild leader and any time I click on anything in the guild window I slow down and make sure it is what I want to click on for the very reason that I am hyper-aware of the disband button among other things.

Simple: the disband guild button appears in the EXACT same place on the screen as the boot player confirm box(also the confirm disband box as well) Turbine, once again, made an ENTIRE UPDATE, an update that encouraged players to spend real money in the ddo store to fully advance the benefit of being in that guild.

By not putting simple tiny safeguard in place, the same safeguard as you have to delete characters for, they did in fact drop the ball. argue that all you want, you cannot change the fact that it is the case. delude yourself all you want, but Turbine made a mistake. the OP did as well. Period.

Let me ask, if they HAD put this safeguard in place with U5 going live, would you still be here now, whining about too many "dumb it down" safeguards? Especially on things Turbine is financially counting on you spending at least SOME small amount of money for?

Turbine has a certain responsibility here, this poor guy lost an ENTIRE guild here, a guild has HAS spent money to make better. Not just a guild, but a FAMILY. If I went to my bank, and entered the wrong pin number in the ATM, and hit enter, and they took my money, I would sue the bank. It is the same concept. The guy hit the wrong button ONLY 1 time, and that was the disband button, the second time, he just said yes to what he was doing originally, with no idea he hit the wrong button the FIRST time around. And again, he is NOT the first that has done this.

To say that Turbine does not share a piece of this pie is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion, and to say the OP did not share a piece of the pie is just as ludicrous.

Both made a mistake. Both have fault. But the larger portion of fault is on those that failed to ensure the players spending their money did not have a safeguard so they did not lose their "bank account"

Even a bank gives you 3 tries on the wrong pin number before they eat your ATM card.

shores11
07-16-2011, 05:36 AM
Both made a mistake. Both have fault. But the larger portion of fault is on those that failed to ensure the players spending their money did not have a safeguard so they did not lose their "bank account"

Even a bank gives you 3 tries on the wrong pin number before they eat your ATM card.

/not signed

We can agree on on this and that is we disagree on who is to blame. If I did this to my guild I would blame no one but myself.

Turbine did add security measures in U-5 just not as many as some obviously needed. Click 1 = "Are you sure you want to do this", Click-2 = "Maybe you didn't understand you really don't want to do this", Click-3 = "Ok type in the name of your first born and your street name since you are being persistant", Click-4 = "You know if you do this your guild is going away forever", Click-5 = "Since it seems your determined to destroy this guild after this last and final click you will have a 72 hour timer in the corner of your guild window that you can click on to stop the disbanding of your guild at any time", Click-6 = "OK please confirm your 72 hours is up, bye bye".

This is my opinion and I have counted to 3.

puget
07-16-2011, 11:33 AM
/not signed

We can agree on on this and that is we disagree on who is to blame. If I did this to my guild I would blame no one but myself.

Turbine did add security measures in U-5 just not as many as some obviously needed. Click 1 = "Are you sure you want to do this", Click-2 = "Maybe you didn't understand you really don't want to do this", Click-3 = "Ok type in the name of your first born and your street name since you are being persistant", Click-4 = "You know if you do this your guild is going away forever", Click-5 = "Since it seems your determined to destroy this guild after this last and final click you will have a 72 hour timer in the corner of your guild window that you can click on to stop the disbanding of your guild at any time", Click-6 = "OK please confirm your 72 hours is up, bye bye".

This is my opinion and I have counted to 3.


At this point shores, you are only arguing the fact for 1 reason I can think of:

You agree with this issue, and are doing a backdoor job of bumping this thread so to not be able to be accused of breaking the forum rules.

I say this, because this thread was well on its way to dying, and you decided that you wanted to start the argument again, and while I commend you for keeping this thread at the top, thus so it is visable, You have absolutely no nothing to say, the blather you typed above, is just that, blather that makes absolutely no sense, nor does it follow with the thread.


Because, you know, people are asking for Turbine to toss 6 or 7 confirm boxes in right?

I won't be replying to your argumentative posts again shores, enjoy your game, and your inciting.

(Kudos though, for keeping the thread at the top of the list, you are doing a good job of keeping the attention on the issue where it belongs, and more people say add the box, than don't)


EDIT: Wow, there is an option to ignore people here? I can get on board with that Turbine, thank you.