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Jrstevenson07
07-08-2011, 08:35 AM
As a way to make it viable, and to make dex bills actually worth considering again, I suggest that a finessible weapon, when coupled with the feat itself, receives a bonus to attack speed.

no, they wont be doing more damage per hit, but they will definitely be doing more hits. It would almost make more sense for the bonus to be different for each weapon, as i dont see how anyone can swing a rapier faster than a dagger.

So, for example (i know these arent the only finesse weapons)
Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Shortsword: Bonus 15% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Dagger: Bonus 20% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.

EDIT: After re-reading the feat description, my suggestion must also include that when useing weapon finesse and a finesse weapon, your dex modifier is what determines your attack roll regardless of which is higher between dex and str.

Honestly allowing somone to have weapon finesse and still use str modifier for light weapons is just plain silly. It's more a waste than power critical or skill focus swim, so this addition to my proposal shouldnt be seen as going to far.

Truga
07-08-2011, 08:39 AM
Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

Chai
07-08-2011, 08:45 AM
As a way to make it viable, and to make dex bills actually worth considering again, I suggest that a finessible weapon, when coupled with the feat itself, receives a bonus to attack speed.

no, they wont be doing more damage per hit, but they will definitely be doing more hits. It would almost make more sense for the bonus to be different for each weapon, as i dont see how anyone can swing a rapier faster than a dagger.

So, for example (i know these arent the only finesse weapons)
Rapier: Bonus 10% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Shortsword: Bonus 15% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.
Dagger: Bonus 20% attack speed when useing weapon finesse.

Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

Lissyl
07-08-2011, 08:49 AM
Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

Anytime an item becomes so widespread that the vast majority of builds has it...it should be rendered 'not the ultimate', imo. Not made useless, but brought down from the level of 'dumb not to have'.

Just my opinion, of course, and not meant to be a stab at anyone in particular. Just a balancing thought, I guess.

IONDragonx
07-08-2011, 09:43 AM
Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

Everything that you said about RL is true. However, you should look up the history of DnD and get a good laugh about the nonsense that it was based upon. The old red box had so much of it, the edges were brown. To the old timers, need I mention: PPD, RSW or BW? Why is DR and AC even in the same game? Aren't they both supposed to be "armor"? Other junk like that.

Jrstevenson07
07-08-2011, 09:44 AM
Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

Does this take into account that a weapon finesse user will have a lower STR?

I've never been good at calculating DPS, so i typicaly dont try.

Cauthey
07-08-2011, 09:49 AM
Allow it to also include:

Crafting Altar Finesse
Your dexterity is such that you can wrangle a crafting altar and make it combine ingredients without having to includ rare pieces of raid loot or costly ability tomes.

That would make Weapon Finesse viable in update 10.1.

Truga
07-08-2011, 09:50 AM
Aren't they both supposed to be "armor"? Other junk like that.

In D&D, if the enemy hits you into an armored spot, you receive no damage at all. This is why AC effectively negates all damage if the enemy's to hit is too low. Can't hit between the armor's joints? Too bad, you did 0 damage.

DR is a "body enhancement", as in, the ability of the person to resist physical damage, either by physical training (barbarians), or due to spells (stoneskin), or as a racial feature (outsiders).

They both offer a form of protection, but in a different way.

Truga
07-08-2011, 09:51 AM
Does this take into account that a weapon finesse user will have a lower STR?

I've never been good at calculating DPS, so i typicaly dont try.

Why lower STR? Weapon finesse needs 13 DEX. GTWF requires 17. I see no reason to take less STR than I did before.

Edit: Unless you mean finesse won't increase attack speed unless dex is higher than STR? In that case, this doesn't do much for most builds, due to the fact that one can get str from a base 14 into the 40s, while max dex + enhacements + levelups + gear + tome and you'll hit what 42? 44?

So yeah, the only builds this would work very well on is the low str high dex ones. Unfortunately, they'll still do much much less damage than anyone else.

Phidius
07-08-2011, 09:52 AM
I just wish that getting a good defense wasn't such a waste of time.

Having said that, I guess changing Weapon Finesse to be a DPS feat would at least be in line with how Turbine wants us to play the game...

OK, fine. Leave the mobs with a +100000000 to hit, and change the defensive stuff to add to our DPS.

Deflection (Protection +5, etc...): redirects a portion of the damage back to the source.
Natural Armor: redirects a percentage of the damage back to the source.
Insight: gives a +X% chance to do a riposte.

help me out with some other ideas, here... I'm running dry.

Luxx0r
07-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Allow it to also include:

Crafting Altar Finesse
Your dexterity is such that you can wrangle a crafting altar and make it combine ingredients without having to includ rare pieces of raid loot or costly ability tomes.

That would make Weapon Finesse viable in update 10.1.

Impresive, most impresive... XD

+1 to you sir.

Rheebus
07-08-2011, 10:07 AM
I like any ideas that encourage people to try different things out and that support a multitude of "good builds." There should be ways to make daggers a good weapon to specialize in. I am fine with leaving Khopeshes as the penultimate DPS weapon, but I think other weapon styles should be improved to make them nearly as good. Daggers do a lot less base damage than khopeshes. Maybe making them faster is a good way to start providing a road for players to build around them.

Unfortunately, uber builds are usually dependent on minute differences between this weapon or that weapon, this feat or that one. When one is changed it can often create ripple effects into many builds and playstyles. It seems weapon finesse has fallen out of favor, but there are may feats that have gone unused since the game was created. We aren't hearing a resounding chorus of change Lightning Reflexes to do X, Y, or Z. Weapon Finesse enjoyed a stretch of popularity and continues to be used by some for certain builds.

Maybe the answer is changing Weapon Focus to its current +1 to hit to having an additional benefit that depends on the weapon you focus on. The only reason ost folks take this feat is because it is a prerequisite for other, much stronger feats and enhancements. Weapon Focus: Daggers might increase your speed with daggers, Weapon Focus: Light Hammer may give a small bonus to Sap, etc...

Creating new roads to greatness increases the opportunities for diversity in the end game.

smyter
07-08-2011, 10:17 AM
Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

I respectly disagree with some of your arguement.
I can definately swing a dagger several times in the time it would take me to swing and recover a greataxe or maul. Furthermore, weapons do different damage for a reason. If I put all my force into and 8 oz hammer, I will not do the same damage as the same force behind a 16 pound sledge hammer. But I can definately swing the hammer more times within a minute.

Chai
07-08-2011, 10:27 AM
I respectly disagree with some of your arguement.
I can definately swing a dagger several times in the time it would take me to swing and recover a greataxe or maul. Furthermore, weapons do different damage for a reason. If I put all my force into and 8 oz hammer, I will not do the same damage as the same force behind a 16 pound sledge hammer. But I can definately swing the hammer more times within a minute.

No you would not be able to and still maintain the same force to do the same damage.

Swing the hammer, yes, swing it with as much strength and lethal technique behind it, no. The weapon is the human body, the force is the waist used as a fulcrum, and the hammer is merely an extension of that fulcrum with an impact point on it.

There are grandmasters who can do double broadsword forms as fast as they do double dagger forms. Then they do their double hammer form (chinese hammer weapon resembles an english mace) and those swing just as fast. Its all about economy of movement that the non combat trained human mind does not understand.

If you are using a smaller weapon you can strike faster to make contact faster, but that contact will not maintain the same level of force, because the weapon is not the factor here, the human body is. Flourishing is not striking. The user can wave the blade around in all kinds of pretty little patterns all they want, but the actual strike when done correctly applies force from the waist rotating and the rest of the body acting like a set of gears, multiplying the force behind the strike.

What you are falling for here is that "contact" equals meeting the goal of the attack, which is false. It isnt a game of tag where the weapon merely needs to contact the opponent like a fencing match, its using the human waist as a fulcrum to deliver enough force to do the damage. Dagger, longsword, pole arm, closed fist, it matters not. The human torso is moving the same to generate the force needed regardless of the weight of the weapon.

This is why 5 foot 0 inch tall japanese men could cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally and cleanly with a weapon, hand that weapon off to a football player, who cant even get halfway through it. They could grab a claymore (supposedly a better weapon for a man of larger stature) if they wanted to, and not generate enough force, if they arent using the proper technique.

its obvious that the designers had no martial experience and did minimal research when using str as the to hit stat. The game was more of a single player version of chainmail which is a medeival risk like game. There are RPGs who use a dex stat (physical prowess for example) for to hit and str stat for damage, and they are more balanced for not being able to dump 4 out of 6 stats and still be effective. Go figure. The irony here of course is that they used monk wisdom stat to add to certain characteristics and abilities that monks have. Someone familiarized themselves with japanese/korean mythology at some point, but it was long after the decision was made to use str mod for to-hit as well as damage.

Of course that being said, in 2.0 they tried to use an initiative system which incorporated the size of the weapon into the modification of the roll, as well as the dex mod. This was the closest they got to what the OP is talking about here in D&D. Segmented combat in my opinion was more accurate than the movement-standard-full-free action combat system 3.5 used. It was also alot more involved. It still didnt give dagger users a faster ROF then sword users, it just let them go first in the round more often than not.

Truga
07-08-2011, 10:41 AM
Post

You're missing the point here. There's a reason a dagger does d4 and a greataxe does d12. If you swing both with the same force, they should do the same (well, similar, greataxe will obviously do more damage if it connects just right, which is seen in it's x3 multiplier) damage. Since a dagger does so much less damage, it should by that same logic, hit faster.

Edit: From the other point of view: If you apply the same amount of force onto a dagger, you'll swing it much faster. It'll hit your opponent before he even accelerates his greataxe up to speed.

Jrstevenson07
07-08-2011, 10:50 AM
Why lower STR? Weapon finesse needs 13 DEX. GTWF requires 17. I see no reason to take less STR than I did before.

Edit: Unless you mean finesse won't increase attack speed unless dex is higher than STR? In that case, this doesn't do much for most builds, due to the fact that one can get str from a base 14 into the 40s, while max dex + enhacements + levelups + gear + tome and you'll hit what 42? 44?

So yeah, the only builds this would work very well on is the low str high dex ones. Unfortunately, they'll still do much much less damage than anyone else.

When you have weapon finesse it uses your dex modifier instead of your str for attack rolls. so i suppose you could have a higher str but you wouldnt be hitting anything.
EDIT: Actually took another look. aparently it takes the higher of either str or dex. As that would be WAY too overpowerd then i would say while changeing the feat the feat to increase weapon speed, also change it so that it uses dex modifier for attack rolls, regardless of which is higher.
Honestly, allowing somone to have weapon finesse and still use str modifier for light weapons is just plain silly. It's more a waste than power critical or skill focus swim, so this addition to my proposal shouldnt be seen as going to far.

Truga
07-08-2011, 10:52 AM
When you have weapon finesse it uses your dex modifier instead of your str for attack rolls. so i suppose you could have a higher str but you wouldnt be hitting anything.

Actually, it currently just uses the higher one. Changing it to always use dex might work. :P

Edit:I wouldn't really call it overpowered. 10% dps increase for 1 feat isn't that much. I think PA gives more than that...

Dilbon
07-08-2011, 11:06 AM
Allow weapon finesse to use dex for both to hit and damage.

Make quarterstaffs finessable.

Make all daggers automatically finessable whether you have the feat or not.

Xenostrata
07-08-2011, 11:15 AM
I like this idea, but it still puts rapier a little too far ahead and leaves others too far behind.

Why not make it all one handed finessable weapons (rapiers and unarmed) get +5-7% attack speed
All light weapons get +18-20% attack speed
All "exceptionally small" weapons (daggers, kukri, light hammers - weapons that look cool but are seriously gimped) gain 25-30% increased attack speed.

I'd also like staves included as one handed weapons, and become finessable with the feat. It may not be inherently light, but it is as a weapon more about technique than just swinging randomly and hoping you hit hard enough to get past defenses.

diamabel
07-08-2011, 11:21 AM
I rather find Chai's idea better.

Make strength the damage stat and dexterity the accuracy stat (to-hit). This way weapon finesse would become obsolete and maybe some other feats as well.


D&D rules were designed with round based combat in mind and a round representing a minute of game time. Characters had a defined number of attacks (defined by class, level and other criteria) where each attack has a chance of inflicting a defined amount of damage on the target. As the rules work with abstractions that doesn't mean that a level 1 fighter does have only 1 attack per round. It really means that during that time (1 round or 1 minute) the opponents exchange several strikes where each are parrying or evading the other's hits.

DDO has already sped up combat quite a lot. I can't avoid the image of a hamster on speed when adding more attacks per "round".

In old style D&D combatants with small or light weapons had the chance of attacking first (depending on weapon speed and initiative roll). That is a real advantage in round based combat. They didn't get additional attacks for using such weapons. Again this doesn't translate well to real-time combat.


p.s.
No matter what you do the rules will reflect some abstractions. If you want the combat to mimic real life combat you'd have to ditch quite a lot of the legacy rules.

Xenostrata
07-08-2011, 11:32 AM
I rather find Chai's idea better.

Make strength the damage stat and dexterity the accuracy stat (to-hit). This way weapon finesse would become obsolete and maybe some other feats as well.


The problem here is that it would be the biggest nerf to every single melee build out there right now that isn't finesse (ie, most of them). Also, if you are going for realism, this is a system that includes the shielding of armor into the protection of a character, which means being able to swing the weapon really hard IS helpful in getting past a persons defenses (finesse all you want, but you still won't be able to get that dagger past someone's full plate).


p.s.
No matter what you do the rules will reflect some abstractions. If you want the combat to mimic real life combat you'd have to ditch quite a lot of the legacy rules.


Exactly. If this were true, str would be damage, dex would be attack and AC, and armor would only contribute DR. Not viable in the current system, and would get a lot of people angry if it was changed.

Jrstevenson07
07-08-2011, 11:41 AM
I like this idea, but it still puts rapier a little too far ahead and leaves others too far behind.

Why not make it all one handed finessable weapons (rapiers and unarmed) get +5-7% attack speed
All light weapons get +18-20% attack speed
All "exceptionally small" weapons (daggers, kukri, light hammers - weapons that look cool but are seriously gimped) gain 25-30% increased attack speed.

I'd also like staves included as one handed weapons, and become finessable with the feat. It may not be inherently light, but it is as a weapon more about technique than just swinging randomly and hoping you hit hard enough to get past defenses.

As i've said before, I'm not good at number crunching. As it stands now all weapons are equal except for damage and crits. why is that?

Chai: You seem to have a bit of experience on the matter, but your own post admits that a smaller weapon WILL strike faster, as is my suggestion to be implemented. Your contention seems to be with the actual contact the force required. A dagger WILL move faster and yes, do less damage. If we are to dabble into the force required to weild certain weapons, we might as well install a stamina bar. Im sure you would agree a grandmaster swinging broadswords at the same speed as daggers will tire out faster.

Furthermore everybody, look at what dexterity is here for in the game. It increases reflexes (your body moves quicker to evade traps and spells) as well as armor class (you are able to move quicker to evade an attack). It only stands to reason that it also would enhance melee movement as well.

Xenostrata
07-08-2011, 12:06 PM
Chai: You seem to have a bit of experience on the matter, but your own post admits that a smaller weapon WILL strike faster, as is my suggestion to be implemented. Your contention seems to be with the actual contact the force required. A dagger WILL move faster and yes, do less damage. If we are to dabble into the force required to weild certain weapons, we might as well install a stamina bar. Im sure you would agree a grandmaster swinging broadswords at the same speed as daggers will tire out faster.


As someone who has taken broadsword and fencing lessons (yes, I'm that much of a nerd) for several years, I can directly say that in a fight, heavier weapons will hit harder but move slower (slightly obvious but bears stating). In a RL duel, the foil will ALWAYS win, since it doesn't matter how hard you hit, just that you hit in the right places, and being able to appropriately maneuver is more important than being able to hit the hardest. However, DnD is an HP based game, and so must take being able to hit harder into account. This means that the normally superior weapons (rapier v. greatsword is not even a contest) are in fact incredibly inferior, because it gives all the advantages large weapons get (hitting harder) but none of the advantages small weapons get (hitting faster, more accurate).

Giving the smaller weapons these advantages would do wonders to balance out the game and make build variations more viable.

Also note that I agree that it should be dex to attack, str to damage, regardless of which is higher. The ability to target weaker spots is already present in the rogue's sneak attack ability, and if you are fighting (even with a light and fast weapon) the goal is less to target specific areas but to get hits in at all, unless you are schooled in that skill (like a rogue).

Rinimand
07-08-2011, 12:21 PM
... make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat...

^ Now, this I agree with !

Jrstevenson07
07-08-2011, 06:47 PM
^ Now, this I agree with !

It would be interesting. isnt that the mechanic ued for other MMO's?

But in the meantime i am merely suggesting a way to make dex builds worth more than mockery.

Feithlin
07-08-2011, 06:58 PM
The best way to make Weapon finesse more useful imo is to make AC useful in epics.
Basically, the idea of Weapon finesse it that you spend a feat to focus mainly on dex, which also benefits to your ref saves, your AC, and may be more easily increased for your race. This is the benefit: there would be no need for another one if it could make your AC viable.

ThePrincipal
07-08-2011, 07:25 PM
as to the subject of dex to hit/str damage, take a trip down memory lane, before BAB, and take a look at my old buddy ThAC0. to-hit armor class 0. a hit in d&d means the blow pierces the suit of armor and does damage to wearer. in roleplaying terms, if you roll and score a miss, the dm could easily say the blow was dodged or deflected, the effect is the same. its a miss. strength based to hit simply means you have the benefit of having an easier ability to break armor with your sword to get to the meat. this is the standard western approach to middle age combat. hit em hard. d&d recognizes that if you can score a hit by other means than bashing through it. you can aim for the weakspots in the armor (dex to hit) or knowing the weakness in the opponents fighting style (wis to hit). similarly, to defend against an attack you can use reflexes to dodge (dex mod), you can use increased awareness (wis mod), and you can fight smarter (int via combat expterise).

if anything, combat expertise shouldnt be a combat stance, it should be a feat that allows you to use Int mod for AC (same as dex/wis) that figters get for free at lvl 2.

so yes dex can help your to hit, but you gotta be trained for it (take the feat).

and yes you can swing a dagger faster than a longsword. goes without saying. thats not a finese issue, thats weapon speed issue which should be brought back into the game. that would indirectly increase the dps of finese builds and str builds uses small arms.

Angelus_dead
07-08-2011, 07:41 PM
As a way to make it viable, and to make dex bills actually worth considering again, I suggest that a finessible weapon, when coupled with the feat itself, receives a bonus to attack speed.
Speed bonuses are multiplicative bonuses, which are inherently stronger than the additive bonuses obtained by having high strength. A change along those lines would immediately overpower those light finesse weapons; just look at how eager Rogues are to dump multiple feats into Opportunist.

If finesse characters need a bonus (and I agree they do), some reasonable ways to approach it are:
1. Make a way to add dex mod to damage under some restricted conditions.
2. Make non-high levels of AC more valuable.
3. Make occasional ranged attacks more valuable.
4. Provide additional sources of dexterity bonuses.

Talltale-Storyteller
07-08-2011, 08:02 PM
In the 3.5 edition feat book was the solution to this:

Superior Weapon Finesse. Let you add your dex mod to damage instead of str on all finesse weapons.

morticianjohn
07-09-2011, 05:17 AM
I really like all the attack speeds being equal. Don't overcomplicate things.

Angelus_dead
07-09-2011, 08:24 AM
In the 3.5 edition feat book was the solution to this:
Superior Weapon Finesse. Let you add your dex mod to damage instead of str on all finesse weapons.
What feat book are you referring to? (I suspect you're not actually talking about D&D 3.5 rules)

t0r012
07-09-2011, 08:45 AM
No you would not be able to and still maintain the same force to do the same damage.

Swing the hammer, yes, swing it with as much strength and lethal technique behind it, no. The weapon is the human body, the force is the waist used as a fulcrum, and the hammer is merely an extension of that fulcrum with an impact point on it.

There are grandmasters who can do double broadsword forms as fast as they do double dagger forms. Then they do their double hammer form (chinese hammer weapon resembles an english mace) and those swing just as fast. Its all about economy of movement that the non combat trained human mind does not understand.

If you are using a smaller weapon you can strike faster to make contact faster, but that contact will not maintain the same level of force, because the weapon is not the factor here, the human body is. Flourishing is not striking. The user can wave the blade around in all kinds of pretty little patterns all they want, but the actual strike when done correctly applies force from the waist rotating and the rest of the body acting like a set of gears, multiplying the force behind the strike.

What you are falling for here is that "contact" equals meeting the goal of the attack, which is false. It isnt a game of tag where the weapon merely needs to contact the opponent like a fencing match, its using the human waist as a fulcrum to deliver enough force to do the damage. Dagger, longsword, pole arm, closed fist, it matters not. The human torso is moving the same to generate the force needed regardless of the weight of the weapon.

This is why 5 foot 0 inch tall japanese men could cut through a roll of carpeting diagonally and cleanly with a weapon, hand that weapon off to a football player, who cant even get halfway through it. They could grab a claymore (supposedly a better weapon for a man of larger stature) if they wanted to, and not generate enough force, if they arent using the proper technique.

its obvious that the designers had no martial experience and did minimal research when using str as the to hit stat. The game was more of a single player version of chainmail which is a medeival risk like game. There are RPGs who use a dex stat (physical prowess for example) for to hit and str stat for damage, and they are more balanced for not being able to dump 4 out of 6 stats and still be effective. Go figure. The irony here of course is that they used monk wisdom stat to add to certain characteristics and abilities that monks have. Someone familiarized themselves with japanese/korean mythology at some point, but it was long after the decision was made to use str mod for to-hit as well as damage.

Of course that being said, in 2.0 they tried to use an initiative system which incorporated the size of the weapon into the modification of the roll, as well as the dex mod. This was the closest they got to what the OP is talking about here in D&D. Segmented combat in my opinion was more accurate than the movement-standard-full-free action combat system 3.5 used. It was also alot more involved. It still didnt give dagger users a faster ROF then sword users, it just let them go first in the round more often than not.


Sorry Chai your view of the situation is quite flawed IMO.

you can talk about doing forms at the same speed or or faster with the heavier weapons but those forms have very little basis in combat reality. All forms are designed to do is to teach the basic mechanics of a weapon and train muscle memory of the techniques.

using a dagger/knife will be many times "faster" than a broad sword. as you have to follow through with a sword and place lots of force in to the blow to provide decent damage it takes a lot longer to make real combat strikes than it does with a dagger/knife. a knife with its smaller finer edge will be much easier to strike with as it is used to strike at weak/high value points generally the major arteries on the on the yin side of the body; the neck, under the back side of the arms and the inner thigh. as a secondary the tendons at the joints are also great places to cut at to reduce the available movement options of your opponent. but the thing is they don't require a "hacking" or much force at all. to sever the arteries in the vulnerable places usually only requires slicing through the skin a small layer of fatty tissue then the artery itself which equates to pretty much a flick of the wrist.

Aesop
07-09-2011, 09:02 AM
Weapon Finesse

Dexterity applies to Combat DCs instead of Strength (Hitting the right pressure point, tangling up the legs, cutting the right strap on the armor)

Dexterity applies to the "to hit" bonus in place of Strength Modifier.

Dexterity is added as a damage bonus on confirmed Critical Hits (critters immune to Critical Hits are immune to this extra damage as well) (could also only be on confirmed Natural 20s if this was seen as too powerful with all the rest)

Light and Finessable weapons have a +5% Double Strike Chance


all of these benefits ONLY apply when Dexterity score exceeds Strength score.


Aesop

Angelus_dead
07-09-2011, 09:48 AM
all of these benefits ONLY apply when Dexterity score exceeds Strength score.
That'd create a perverse situation where a guy with dex 30 / str 29 gets a Rage spell cast on him and his DPS goes down.

Raithe
07-09-2011, 11:23 AM
This is the benefit: there would be no need for another one if it could make your AC viable.

It's more than simply making AC viable. My kensei, even with a 26 dex (+8), actually achieves the highest AC marks by wearing either Dragontouched (+3 dodge) full plate or epic Cavalry Plate. The key is making damage mitigation and avoidance more useful in general. Reflex saves and ranged attacks.

DDO has become an OP healing and one-shot-kill world. You have to have enough hit points to surmount that high damage spike, and people need to be constantly healed for the same reason, so why bother with damage mitigation and avoidance if it doesn't save resources?

Make AC viable, sure, but the damage and healing need to be toned down significantly as well. The benefits of doing so extend beyond simply making dexterity a more valuable stat, it makes the game more diverse and interesting in general.

Aesop
07-09-2011, 11:32 AM
That'd create a perverse situation where a guy with dex 30 / str 29 gets a Rage spell cast on him and his DPS goes down.

Yep that is true but it also prevents a 72 strength 30 dex barbarian from gaining even more damage and extra double strike.

I suppose you could do something else to avoid that situation. Any ideas?



Maybe as long as Str doesn't exceed Dex by a certain amount... or maybe as long as Base Dex + Inherent Bonus isn't exceeded by Base Strength and Inherent Strength

fco-karatekid
07-09-2011, 11:36 AM
Allow weapon finesse to use dex for both to hit and damage.

Make quarterstaffs finessable.

Make all daggers automatically finessable whether you have the feat or not.

Dunno why, but for about 6 months, (and not reading the description), this is exactly what I thought finesse did for the rogue I was playing. Then I read it and re-rolled :D I really like this idea.

azrael4h
07-09-2011, 11:50 AM
When designing my own cRPG, the first thing I decided upon was making Agility (equivalent to D&D's DEX) the to-hit stat, STR is damage. It has always been the more logical way of doing things to me, with even my limited experience in martial arts. I felt this way back when I was 7 and decided I wanted to make a crpg, and never have changed that thought.

Now I have experience with the English Quarterstaff and German Longsword, and what I felt back then has been proven true by that experience.

Swinging a Longsword (using this as example, but it's a common theme) is about leverage, and using the body to efficiently generate force along the cutting edge. Swing a longsword like a crowbar, and you're going to get killed. Think that a qstaff is a big hammer without a head, and treat it as such, and you won't get much done except die embarrassed.


using a dagger/knife will be many times "faster" than a broad sword. as you have to follow through with a sword and place lots of force in to the blow to provide decent damage it takes a lot longer to make real combat strikes than it does with a dagger/knife.

The person who puts a lot of force into using a broadsword is a person who doesn't know how to use a broadsword. It's not a crowbar. That point sinks quite readily into flesh; that edge cuts skin easily. This isn't a movie. If you need lots of force to a blow to make a broadsword work, then learn to use the Broadsword right. It's about leverage; not power. I generate more force with a Quarterstaff by using it properly and using leverage than I ever would swinging it like a sledgehammer. And as more than one person found out, it moves very, very fast.

Pick up any Christian Tobler book, like "Fighting with the German Longsword". I also recommend checking out the ARMA's website http://www.thearma.org/, as it has a good many articles on western martial arts in general. In reality, the main difference is Eastern and Western arts is wide-spread publication and availability, and more than a bit of marketing. The western arts are lesser known, and like your post illustrates vastly misunderstood and oversimplified into brute barbaric nonsense. In studying both, I'm finding more similarities than differences, and what differences there are are due to cultural and technical limitations.

Aesop
07-09-2011, 12:00 PM
When designing my own cRPG, the first thing I decided upon was making Agility (equivalent to D&D's DEX) the to-hit stat, STR is damage. It has always been the more logical way of doing things to me, with even my limited experience in martial arts. I felt this way back when I was 7 and decided I wanted to make a crpg, and never have changed that thought.

Now I have experience with the English Quarterstaff and German Longsword, and what I felt back then has been proven true by that experience.

Swinging a Longsword (using this as example, but it's a common theme) is about leverage, and using the body to efficiently generate force along the cutting edge. Swing a longsword like a crowbar, and you're going to get killed. Think that a qstaff is a big hammer without a head, and treat it as such, and you won't get much done except die embarrassed.



The person who puts a lot of force into using a broadsword is a person who doesn't know how to use a broadsword. It's not a crowbar. That point sinks quite readily into flesh; that edge cuts skin easily. This isn't a movie. If you need lots of force to a blow to make a broadsword work, then learn to use the Broadsword right. It's about leverage; not power. I generate more force with a Quarterstaff by using it properly and using leverage than I ever would swinging it like a sledgehammer. And as more than one person found out, it moves very, very fast.

Pick up any Christian Tobler book, like "Fighting with the German Longsword". I also recommend checking out the ARMA's website http://www.thearma.org/, as it has a good many articles on western martial arts in general. In reality, the main difference is Eastern and Western arts is wide-spread publication and availability, and more than a bit of marketing. The western arts are lesser known, and like your post illustrates vastly misunderstood and oversimplified into brute barbaric nonsense. In studying both, I'm finding more similarities than differences, and what differences there are are due to cultural and technical limitations.


Hey I know that guy... he's a bit eccentric. When I knew him he was kinda overdoing the Errol Flynn look but still not a bad guy

azrael4h
07-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Hey I know that guy... he's a bit eccentric. When I knew him he was kinda overdoing the Errol Flynn look but still not a bad guy

I think you have to be a tad bit eccentric to pour over Medieval European fight manuals and reconstruct the arts within, or for that matter, design and program a computer game. ;)

svinja
07-09-2011, 01:41 PM
Making finesse competitive in damage would make dex wis monks and monk splash AC builds overpowered. I would immediately LR my paladin into a dex based monk splash. The fact that a finesse pure ranger or rogue is underpowered compared to a STR one is not because finesse is bad, it's because the person went for finesse on a build that doesn't really benefit from dex. If neither the extra AC nor reflex is needed on your build, then it is simply a mistake to go finesse. For such builds, finesse is just the easy way out of the character creation stat distribution interface, because it leaves a nice amount of points for other stats. :D

Str - damage
Dex - AC, reflex, TWF feats

Seems fine to me. If you do not need the AC and reflex, then don't go dex based. If it's a TWF build, suck it up and put the needed points into both strength and dex, or simply accept that you will do lower damage. I agree that AC should work better in epics, but I don't agree that finesse should be so powerful that it becomes viable even for builds who don't benefit from the AC. The AC benefit is there, it can't be ignored, if your build doesn't utilize it then it was simply a mistake to go finesse.

t0r012
07-09-2011, 01:53 PM
Svinja,
The point is there are no builds left where finesse has any benefit or dare I even say it, gimps the build.
The last holdout to a viable finesse build was a dex/ wis finesse monk and that went away with the last update.
Now there isn't a single build that can use finesse to anywhere near worth using a feat for finesse.

Bodic
07-09-2011, 02:03 PM
Would make rapier better than khopesh by about 3% at the same cost (1 feat).

While I wouldn't mind this, people will rage about their lit2 khopeshes now being "useless".

I would approve of the nerdrage for certain.
There are still some small advantages to being a dex based right now, DPS is not the only thing out there reguardless of what people say.

Aesop
07-09-2011, 02:04 PM
I think you have to be a tad bit eccentric to pour over Medieval European fight manuals and reconstruct the arts within, or for that matter, design and program a computer game. ;)

yeah he's right up there on that list

http://www.stmichaelssalle.com/images/tobler-bw.jpg

Aesop
07-09-2011, 02:05 PM
I would approve of the nerdrage for certain.
There are still some small advantages to being a dex based right now, DPS is not the only thing out there reguardless of what people say.

Like what?

killerzee25
07-09-2011, 02:06 PM
I rather find Chai's idea better.

Make strength the damage stat and dexterity the accuracy stat (to-hit). This way weapon finesse would become obsolete and maybe some other feats as well.


I can just imagine if this was implemented every single barbarian, non twf fighter and pally would be absolutely crippled by this.

Though it would be nice for the combat system to reflect real life it nether follows the d&d version this game is based on nor is it something that could be implemented without breaking most things currently in the game

RJBsComputer
07-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Okay, time to rain on someone's parade. If you have not read the Rogue Forums then you would not know the two biggest hot button issues are Rapier vs Khopesh and STR vs DEX. The lines are drawn equally. You could say the Real arguement is how to spend that one feat - Weapon Finess or Khopesh Pro.

Here is a short version of all of the threads I have read on the topic(arguemet)

STR vs DEX - about 5 points in DPS difference

Rapier vs Khopesh - about 3 points in DPS difference

(it all depends on who you have run the math for you)

But now here is where something that only Rogues have that no other class has - Sneak Atttack Damage. SA is the big equalizer. So you well never know what type of Rogue you are really playing with. But if you do figure it out....Well we Rogues have s "special" gift for you ;-)

Raithe
07-09-2011, 07:47 PM
SA is the big equalizer.

There is some truth here. The less damage you do (generally), the more sneak attacks you get and the more damage you do. This is true even if you are sporting subtle backstabbing enhancements or threat reduction gear.

It would be interesting to find out what combination of sneak-attack/damage-to-aggro proved to be the most efficient against sneak-attackable mobs with lots of hit points, assuming all melee attackers had identical damage profiles.

Monkey_Archer
07-09-2011, 08:00 PM
Attack speed increases were removed/replaced by doublestrike in the name of fixing lag... so they likey won't ever be added again.

A 10-20% increase is way over the top... you're assuming ALL finesse builds automatically have terrible dps (which isnt true if you have roughly the same str/dex for some builds) 10-20% might be balanced for 40 dex/16 str gimps, but more common 36dex/30str builds are not that far behind.

I'd propose that weapon finesse instead grants a 3% doublestrike, and only if dex is actually higher then strength (to prevent str based builds from just taking it for the doublestrike).

SiliconShadow
07-09-2011, 08:06 PM
I think if anything it should give 1/4 your dexterity bonus to double strike for exotic weapons, martial weapons and unarmed and a 1/4 dexterity bonus to double strike + 1/2 dexterity bonus to attack speed to simple weapons.

so a 40 dexterity monk would get:
+5% to double strike

A 40 dexterity assasin would get:
+5% to double strike with rapiers
+5% to double strike and +10% to attack speed with daggers

NaturalHazard
07-09-2011, 08:17 PM
Ive got quite a few forms under by belt currently, from double dagger to chinese broadsword, and I can say that neither of those weapons is moving faster or slower than the other. Its not like slap boxing or tag where all you have to do is come into contact with the opponent - there needs to be the same kind of force behind a dagger as there is a long sword for it to do damage. To do that you have to apply the same types of techniques to get that force.

The best thing they could have thought of back in the 70s while dreaming all this stuff up is make dex the to hit stat and str the damage stat. I dont care if youre using a claymore or a pole arm, the more dexterous people have an easier time using weapons of even those larger weights, not those who are stronger. Technique trumps strength. Knowing how to rotate the waist to use the human body as a fulcrum is key, regardless if the weapon weighs 6 ounces, or 25 pounds.

This is so true, agility and balance way more important than just plain strength, also when people see strong atheletes they just focus on their strength they dont see how nimble these guys are and how good they are with technique.

And also technique and stamina also very important for fighting, hehe casters have a blue bar to limmit them, but it would make it more life like if every class had say a green bar, that limmited physical exercise, after a while it takes up a lot of energy to swing weapons, run around jump. But I dont think I would like this lol. Its true what you said about the weapons being around the same speed, but I bet that the lighter ones you can use longer without getting tired maybe?

phum
07-10-2011, 01:55 AM
Imo the main problem with finesse is the amount of str boni that are actually quite hard to avoid. And of course there is no reason to avoid them because they increase your dmg. So finesse builds even with a dump statted str end up with almost no benefit from finesse. Of course this is also because there are not that many ways to get dex boni.

The ac question is a separate 1. Leveling a finesse build is fine (survivability is good), but in the end gearing choices tend to negate the benefits. Maybe making moderate ac useful at end game would affect the gearing choices, but that remains to be seen IF they ever get to making an ac pass. In the meanwhile.. it wouldn't hurt to do something for finesse. E.g. finesse weapons always use dex for to-hit (maybe for dmg too) and give 2/4% doublestrike based on whether the weapon is light. Quite sure this suggestion or something like it has been made before.

bloodnose13
07-10-2011, 11:15 AM
probably easier would be to get a finesse feat change to give a double strike chance, if i remember right double strike was to replace most of the attack speed enchancements.

Jrstevenson07
07-10-2011, 11:15 AM
Attack speed increases were removed/replaced by doublestrike in the name of fixing lag... so they likey won't ever be added again.

A 10-20% increase is way over the top... you're assuming ALL finesse builds automatically have terrible dps (which isnt true if you have roughly the same str/dex for some builds) 10-20% might be balanced for 40 dex/16 str gimps, but more common 36dex/30str builds are not that far behind.

I'd propose that weapon finesse instead grants a 3% doublestrike, and only if dex is actually higher then strength (to prevent str based builds from just taking it for the doublestrike).

There is no lag in DDO. It is all on your machine.
There was lag when they still had the attack speed enhancements, but they are gone and so is the lag.
sarcasm over.

If faster attack speed is truely the cause of the lag, then my time enjoying fighter haste boost IV is nearly over, and the sorcs that dont prep the haste spell have been right all along.

10-20% might not be as over the top as you think. Keep in mind that by going weapon finesse you will need to put more into dex than str to be able to hit anything, thereby loseing dps via the lesser str score. to try and balance our the two stats you lose on to hit. even so the percentage could be dropped as long as it is to the point of keeping it viable still.

Chai
07-10-2011, 10:31 PM
I can just imagine if this was implemented every single barbarian, non twf fighter and pally would be absolutely crippled by this.

Though it would be nice for the combat system to reflect real life it nether follows the d&d version this game is based on nor is it something that could be implemented without breaking most things currently in the game

Im not so sure they would be crippled in todays DDO, heh. Right now barbarians sit at ~80 str for a decently geared but not over the top toon. I have seen some who are in the 90s and many who have not hit the shroud yet are in the mid 60s. Using 80 as the base number, if a barbarian had to max DEX to get a decent to hit, it would mean starting the toon with 2 less points of str so for a human thats starting at 16, then they would put all their level ups into dex rather than str, which is 5 more points. So far we are at a 7 point difference.

So the 80 sustainable str barbarian now only has a mere 73 str, heh.

Talltale-Storyteller
07-12-2011, 09:48 PM
What feat book are you referring to? (I suspect you're not actually talking about D&D 3.5 rules)

Sorry, forgot to follow this thread. It was called The Feat Handbook. It was literally nothing but hundreds of optional feats for 3.5e. One of my players bought it and asked if I would let them use it, and I told them on a case by case basis. One I allowed was the one I mentioned.