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arvendel
07-07-2011, 03:32 PM
First of all i KNOW that i will receive many comments on why the AH should be left alone. This is to share my opinion to help make the system better and if this gives someone an idea to make it better so be it. Everyone knows the AH is Overpriced and charges too much for the sale of items. Many people base what a items "value" is based on the AH but here is what i have found. in many cases items are put into the bid 1000% higher then their worth this causes others to believe that that is the "value" of the item and place similar items for around the same cost. Now everyone has a perceived value of this item that is skewed... Now we all KNOW that the guy didn't sell the item for the outrageous cost but we place this value on the item anyway thus creating our own value. My suggestion is simple.
No item may be posted for over 2 x base value then simple let the auction begin if it goes to 1,000,000 plat so be it but if it doesn't so be it. you may still place a buy out price at whatever you feel but it would stop the self made inflation.

all of the existing AH posts could remain the same just implement this on New posts.

a small idea can sometimes have a big impact..

Just my 2 plat..

Cam_Neely
07-07-2011, 03:35 PM
You fix something that is not broken, and make assumptions do not follow prior statements.

If something does not get bought for a crazy price, then it does not matter, nothing has changed.

If something does get bought for a crazy price, then it does not matter, because the buyer willingly paid that price, and the seller willingly sold it for that price, both parties are happy.


Everyone knows the AH is Overpriced and charges too much for the sale of items.
This is not true. If it charged to much, then people would not use it. People use it, so they think the value the obtain is more then what they pay.

in many cases items are put into the bid 1000% higher then their worth this causes others to believe that that is the "value" of the item and place similar items for around the same cost. Now everyone has a perceived value of this item that is skewed... Now we all KNOW that the guy didn't sell the item for the outrageous cost but we place this value on the item anyway thus creating our own value.
I put a widget in the AH for 1 billion Plat. 'we all know that it did not sell for that' but now I value a widget at 1billion plat? Does not follow. More over if I now think thats the base price and i put it in for 1billion plat, its still not worth that, and no one will buy it.

My suggestion is simple.
No item may be posted for over 2 x base value then simple let the auction begin if it goes to 1,000,000 plat so be it but if it doesn't so be it. you may still place a buy out price at whatever you feel but it would stop the self made inflation. This is pointless, why not just eliminate the buy out price. This also does nothing to inflation, you put that in to try and get support, where it has nothing to do with inflation. the transaction itself neither creates nor destroys plat. The tax, which does remove plat from the game, would stay the same, because you are doing nothing to change the value of the item being sold

Doomcrew
07-07-2011, 03:41 PM
An items value or worth is not decided by the seller, but rather the buyer.

If you deem something is over priced, don't buy it. If the whole market is
deemed over priced ..... prices will drop.

It's only when folks choose to buy at outrageous prices that that "value'
is justified.

The plat is in your pocket, you decide.

arvendel
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Look at first line "First of all i KNOW that i will receive many comments on why the AH should be left alone."

I love how people get sooo defensive..

Dude I'm not gonna take your lollipop just making a suggestion...

LOL

Cam_Neely
07-07-2011, 03:48 PM
Look at first line "First of all i KNOW that i will receive many comments on why the AH should be left alone."

I love how people get sooo defensive..

Dude I'm not gonna take your lollipop just making a suggestion...

LOL

I'm assuming this is directed at me?

You sound more defensive then me, by putting the disclaimer in there. By making a suggestion in the forums, people are going to critique it. Personally I thought it was a bad idea, and I point out why. Feel free to make a quality response rebutting my thoughts in an intelligent way as opposed to 'lol'

But if you touch my lollipop, its on.

AtomicMew
07-07-2011, 03:54 PM
This is not true. If it charged to much, then people would not use it. People use it, so they think the value the obtain is more then what they pay.
This is a poor argument. The free market is not what allows the AH to charge 30%, it's the fact that the AH has a monopoly on its specific task.

We know what monopolies do in real life. They overcharge because they can, but if competitors were allowed entry into the market, the price would go way down.

Of course the effect on the average player is clear too: people hoard because they don't want to lose 30%. If they put it on the AH, they put it on at a much higher price. That, combined with the 2.1 million plat cap means that there is much less availability for things you and I want. A functional AH would allow people to put high value items on the AH without worry. As it is, even if they removed the 2.1 million plat cap, no one would in their right mind would put an SOS scroll on the AH. Both restrictions need to be removed.

Bottom line, it's frustrating and decreases enjoyment of the game. The AH needs a revamp and everyone knows it.

AtomicMew
07-07-2011, 04:00 PM
I'm assuming this is directed at me?

You sound more defensive then me, by putting the disclaimer in there. By making a suggestion in the forums, people are going to critique it. Personally I thought it was a bad idea, and I point out why. Feel free to make a quality response rebutting my thoughts in an intelligent way as opposed to 'lol'

But if you touch my lollipop, its on.
My critique of your critique is that your critique is pointless.

What reason is there for keeping the AH in shambles with the 30% tax and the 2.1 million plat limit? Keeping inflation down? How about a mechanism for that that doesn't feel like throwing away plat. The restrictions serves no purpose and makes the AH less robust than it could be. Other than that, you have no reason other than to be contradictory.

rayworks
07-07-2011, 04:02 PM
I don't mind that the AH charges a fee, but 30% is ridiculous. It forces some people to overvalue an item just so they can get back the "real" price of the item. For instance, lets say I put up a +2 longsword of buttkickingness and its base price is 1800p. I know from go that I will lose 30% of that when it sells. So what do I do? I price it at 2500p just so I can come close to breaking even. I know I'm not the only one who does it. Cut the "fee" to 10%.

And while we're fixing the AH, give me more sorting options. How about a button to select race-only items? I am sooooooo tired of sorting against swords or something and having really cool ones come up that are horc-only or something.

kilagan800
07-07-2011, 05:02 PM
This is a poor argument. The free market is not what allows the AH to charge 30%, it's the fact that the AH has a monopoly on its specific task.

We know what monopolies do in real life. They overcharge because they can, but if competitors were allowed entry into the market, the price would go way down.

Of course the effect on the average player is clear too: people hoard because they don't want to lose 30%. If they put it on the AH, they put it on at a much higher price. That, combined with the 2.1 million plat cap means that there is much less availability for things you and I want. A functional AH would allow people to put high value items on the AH without worry. As it is, even if they removed the 2.1 million plat cap, no one would in their right mind would put an SOS scroll on the AH. Both restrictions need to be removed.

Bottom line, it's frustrating and decreases enjoyment of the game. The AH needs a revamp and everyone knows it.

First off, I hoard items and weapons until i decide to sell them, mainly so that I won't have to waste plat to buy them, but also if I want to make some extra plat I have the option to do so. I think the ah is fine now and this is why. Now that people are making bound and unbound crafting items, this will allow to flood the market of say secret door detection gloves and invisibility robes and weapons of such and such that it will automatically drive ah prices down. This is new competition for the ah. Also you can purshase from the item and weapon pawns.

As of now, I can't sell feather falling boots for 10k for the life of me like I used to. But at the same time, I don't need as much plat like I used to. Just more shards. XD

arvendel
07-07-2011, 06:47 PM
ok ok joking all aside. with what is said that their would be no change with my idea i say then what would it hurt to try it out. if the prices would still go to exasperating levels then their is NO HARM. But if I am correct in saying that thing ARE overpriced then the market will show the true value of the items...

The ONLY thing that people who are against this idea are the ones scared of change, scared of making a killing at others expense and scared of the possibility of being wrong.

Fight the fear of change and give it a go the worst that can happen is NOTHING CHANGES. the best that can happen is that a true representation of item value emerges.

That's all i am saying.

Cam_Neely
07-07-2011, 09:09 PM
This is a poor argument. The free market is not what allows the AH to charge 30%, it's the fact that the AH has a monopoly on its specific task. There is no monopoly. There is /trade, there is the trade forums and there are numerous guild and alliance chats. If people did not see the value they would not use it.


We know what monopolies do in real life. They overcharge because they can, but if competitors were allowed entry into the market, the price would go way down. Yawn. What barriers to entry are there in DDO. Whats the cost to me to type /trade WTS SoS Scroll? 3 seconds of my time. Thats not a barrier to entry, which are required for any monopoly.


Of course the effect on the average player is clear too: people hoard because they don't want to lose 30%. If they put it on the AH, they put it on at a much higher price. That, combined with the 2.1 million plat cap means that there is much less availability for things you and I want. A functional AH would allow people to put high value items on the AH without worry. As it is, even if they removed the 2.1 million plat cap, no one would in their right mind would put an SOS scroll on the AH. Both restrictions need to be removed.

Bottom line, it's frustrating and decreases enjoyment of the game. The AH needs a revamp and everyone knows it. So what 'high value item' do you find it hard to buy or sell? I see no issues buying FRDS, Scrolls of the claw sets ect. (besides my limited assets) No you dont see them in the AH, thats cause there is no monopoly.



My critique of your critique is that your critique is pointless.

What reason is there for keeping the AH in shambles with the 30% tax and the 2.1 million plat limit? Keeping inflation down? How about a mechanism for that that doesn't feel like throwing away plat. The restrictions serves no purpose and makes the AH less robust than it could be. Other than that, you have no reason other than to be contradictory. The OP and my response had nothing to do with the 30% tax or the plat limit. Did you even read my post? A small part of my post had to do with inflation, just saying that inflation had nothing to do with what he was saying, and he put it in as a strawman to get blind support.

As I said above, you dont wanna 'throw plat away' use one of the many other avenues to trade. Nothing you say has anything to do with my critique

LoveNeverFails
07-07-2011, 09:15 PM
ok ok joking all aside. with what is said that their would be no change with my idea i say then what would it hurt to try it out. if the prices would still go to exasperating levels then their is NO HARM. But if I am correct in saying that thing ARE overpriced then the market will show the true value of the items...

The ONLY thing that people who are against this idea are the ones scared of change, scared of making a killing at others expense and scared of the possibility of being wrong.

Fight the fear of change and give it a go the worst that can happen is NOTHING CHANGES. the best that can happen is that a true representation of item value emerges.

That's all i am saying.

Sounds to me from your disclaimer and subsequent posts that you don't want a critique on your idea, you just want to get your voice out there, and for them to change it now. You have already decided that you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Failtastic.

Personally, I think the AH is ok. if an item is to expensive, I don't buy it. meh.

I do wish the 30% fee would get knocked back a few pegs, because that probably will reduce the insane amount of stupid high prices, but what has been said above is true. Things are listed for stupid high prices because people pay stupid high prices. Don't like the price, don't buy the item. Go farm it yourself. :D

Falco_Easts
07-07-2011, 10:57 PM
Base Value does not equal Actual Value.

Your suggestion was dead from the start.

RJBsComputer
07-07-2011, 11:12 PM
I do agree that some starting prices are TOO high. However, there is an option to the AH that players do not think about checking out. That option is the Pawn Shops. The more experience players know that if they want to get more then the INN prices for their weapons and don't want to wait on the AH for 3 days for a possible sale, we, the experience, go to the Pawn Shops to sell. Now the nice thing about the Pawn Shops is that you can then buy what the other players have sold to the Pawn Shops at Pawn Shop Prices and not AH prices.

LunaCee
07-07-2011, 11:26 PM
I do agree that some starting prices are TOO high. However, there is an option to the AH that players do not think about checking out. That option is the Pawn Shops. The more experience players know that if they want to get more then the INN prices for their weapons and don't want to wait on the AH for 3 days for a possible sale, we, the experience, go to the Pawn Shops to sell. Now the nice thing about the Pawn Shops is that you can then buy what the other players have sold to the Pawn Shops at Pawn Shop Prices and not AH prices.

Except for the fact that the pawnshops anymore only have the "useless" named items that can't be sold on the AH for profit and cannot be broken down into essences for crafting. Now depending on how the big fiasco in the Lam forums turns out they might fill right back up again soon enough.

But still at the moment, the pawn shops are more like trash shops... with practically nothing there.

AtomicMew
07-08-2011, 01:28 AM
Yawn. What barriers to entry are there in DDO. Whats the cost to me to type /trade WTS SoS Scroll? 3 seconds of my time. Thats not a barrier to entry, which are required for any monopoly.

Are you seriously saying using /trade is the same service as the AH? Wow.. that's .. I don't really know how to respond.

AtomicMew
07-08-2011, 01:41 AM
I do wish the 30% fee would get knocked back a few pegs, because that probably will reduce the insane amount of stupid high prices, but what has been said above is true. Things are listed for stupid high prices because people pay stupid high prices. Don't like the price, don't buy the item. Go farm it yourself. :D
No, actually, THEY DON'T. Even if you list a LDS by undercutting every other LDS price on the AH... chances are, it won't sell. Unless you list it at a price very, very close to what it sells in /trade, chances are, it won't sell. And if it did sell, you basically just sold it at a loss. This is a huge problem with the defunct AH as it is currently: it leads to less trade, more hoarding and less availability.

In short, it makes the game less fun.

I have not seen a decent argument for reducing 30% fee, which I agree with you, should be knocked back. The only arguments I have seen are:

1) "Change is bad, mkay"
2) Fights inflation. True - but at the cost of having an AH that doesn't work as well as it should.
3) "If it ain't broke don't fix it." (But this is clearly wrong, since the AH does not work in many ways that it SHOULD and DOES in other games. Mainly, the auction of high value items.)

NinjaNeed
07-08-2011, 01:57 AM
NO!

Lets take an example:

Bloodstone. Rare sort after loot. Normal price on my server is about 750k to a million plat.
None on broker, ill pop mine on for 2 million.
Someone comes along and sees mine for 2m, i'll sell mine and undercut him, put it on for 1.8m
Someone else comes along, 1.5m
....
No one buys until someone puts one on for a million plat, price evens out.

Its simple economics, supply and demand.

rr1943
07-08-2011, 02:17 AM
First of all i KNOW that i will receive many comments on why the AH should be left alone. This is to share my opinion to help make the system better and if this gives someone an idea to make it better so be it. Everyone knows the AH is Overpriced and charges too much for the sale of items. Many people base what a items "value" is based on the AH but here is what i have found. in many cases items are put into the bid 1000% higher then their worth this causes others to believe that that is the "value" of the item and place similar items for around the same cost. Now everyone has a perceived value of this item that is skewed... Now we all KNOW that the guy didn't sell the item for the outrageous cost but we place this value on the item anyway thus creating our own value. My suggestion is simple.
No item may be posted for over 2 x base value then simple let the auction begin if it goes to 1,000,000 plat so be it but if it doesn't so be it. you may still place a buy out price at whatever you feel but it would stop the self made inflation.

all of the existing AH posts could remain the same just implement this on New posts.

a small idea can sometimes have a big impact..

Just my 2 plat..

it doesn't matter how many people want to put a manipulated price there. there will be people selling them at a reasonable price. Would you pay 1bar for prayer's beads? Trust me, if you do, i will sell you half the price as many as you like, so do others.

Similar situation for other rare stuffs. would you sell LDS for 1k plat? i will pay double for how many you have, so do others

AtomicMew
07-08-2011, 02:17 PM
NO!

Lets take an example:

Bloodstone. Rare sort after loot. Normal price on my server is about 750k to a million plat.
None on broker, ill pop mine on for 2 million.
Someone comes along and sees mine for 2m, i'll sell mine and undercut him, put it on for 1.8m
Someone else comes along, 1.5m
....
No one buys until someone puts one on for a million plat, price evens out.

Its simple economics, supply and demand.

No no and no. This is wrong.

Read my above post and the following:

Price for shroud mats on the AH remain high, not because people are willing to buy, but because people are unwilling to sell at a lower price. You could easily undercut everyone and NOT sell.

An easy example is the price of large stones. Right now, the lowest buyout is 180k. Using a 30% discount = 120k. Do you REALLY think large stones are worth 120k? I have two dozen that I'd be willing to sell at an even lower price of 100k.

The people that put mats on the AH are basically hoping that someone desperate enough will come and buy things at an exorbitant price, in exchange for convenience. Sometimes that happens, but most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time, mats just sit on the AH and expire.

The fact is, laws of supply and demand don't always apply on the AH when there is price mismatch between the sellers and buyers.

game5551
07-08-2011, 03:50 PM
You want to base the economy on values the developers arbitrarily picked out of thin air (a good example of this would be a con +6 ring being valued at the same price as an int +6 ring - only wiz and rogues are really going to care about int +6, but every class cares about con +6 - shouldn't the con ring be valued higher?)

So basically you want to switch from a free market type system where the buyer and seller eventually agree on a price to a system which can only benefit the buyer, and in many situations, the seller flat out looses.

If I post an item on the AH and it sells, it means that item's value is that much, simple as that. If an item does not sell, it does not mean that the value is lower than that - but that is your argument.

What do I mean? Well I regularly post Mnemonic potions on the auction house. If I post on monday or tuesday, they usually get returned to my mail box - no one bought them. I then repost for the exact same amount on friday. Over the weekend people come through, and buy up all my pots. I think pretty clearly I valued the pots correctly. This isnt a rare occurrence for me.

What does a set minimum bid mean to me?

Instead of not selling during the week, any posted pots would be sniped at the end and go for the minimum bid. We all know that someone would log on just enough to do that for highly valued items that have a base value set much too low.

As a result, I would not post any auction house items during the week. I would hoard the items till the weekend when more people will be on. More people = more demand = higher bid prices.

I doubt I would be alone, meaning that the auction house would be much more empty during the week.

The only argument I see posted to do the change is for end game items (mats, epic scrolls...), and changing the whole AH just for that small subset seems pointless - that is what the /trade is for, or the forums.

Aaxeyu
07-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Your economic understanding is severely lacking.

However, I do agree that the AH should be revamped.

They should remove the 'bid' part so there's only a buyout option and remove the AH tax.

Fomori
07-08-2011, 04:17 PM
No no and no. This is wrong.

Read my above post and the following:

Price for shroud mats on the AH remain high, not because people are willing to buy, but because people are unwilling to sell at a lower price. You could easily undercut everyone and NOT sell.

An easy example is the price of large stones. Right now, the lowest buyout is 180k. Using a 30% discount = 120k. Do you REALLY think large stones are worth 120k? I have two dozen that I'd be willing to sell at an even lower price of 100k.

The people that put mats on the AH are basically hoping that someone desperate enough will come and buy things at an exorbitant price, in exchange for convenience. Sometimes that happens, but most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time, mats just sit on the AH and expire.

The fact is, laws of supply and demand don't always apply on the AH when there is price mismatch between the sellers and buyers.
As much as it pains me to agree with AtomicMew... I think James Carville from Old School says it best, "Oh... It... We... have no response. That was perfect."

Hineman
07-08-2011, 04:17 PM
DDO vendors have been handing out plat in exchange for items for a very very long time. It is a currency issue not a value issue. Everyone (er most vets) has too much plat. Why sell my bloodstone for face value or 10x face value if I have 20-30 million plat? Also if I really want a bloodstone and I have 20 million plat big deal paying 100x face value. The DDO government has been printing money (or minting money) for way too long. If you want AH to lower prices imagine a reverse stock split...say 100 or 1000 to 1 to drive prices back down. Maybe you should pay to level (training etc) and maybe it would put a dent into the oversupply of plat. Until something changes the inflation (oversupply of money) you see will only continued price increase.

Bodic
07-08-2011, 04:25 PM
I love how people get sooo defensive.. Including me



Is what I read.

The AH is fine if an Item is overpriced dont buy it.
The biggest factor is Newb/Noob AH behavior they think that xyz is worth so much so they post high and it sits unless a Newb/Noob buys it.

Personal example I used to sell +1 tome on the AH for near nothing maybe 5kpp now I vendor trash them. What is the current AH price for those I never look I bet its 15-25kpp way over priced in my opinion as they are but vendor trash to me so I dont really cae to look.

Aaxeyu
07-08-2011, 04:49 PM
DDO vendors have been handing out plat in exchange for items for a very very long time. It is a currency issue not a value issue. Everyone (er most vets) has too much plat. Why sell my bloodstone for face value or 10x face value if I have 20-30 million plat? Also if I really want a bloodstone and I have 20 million plat big deal paying 100x face value. The DDO government has been printing money (or minting money) for way too long. If you want AH to lower prices imagine a reverse stock split...say 100 or 1000 to 1 to drive prices back down. Maybe you should pay to level (training etc) and maybe it would put a dent into the oversupply of plat. Until something changes the inflation (oversupply of money) you see will only continued price increase.

The size of the plat supply is not very important. It's the rate at which it changes that affects the economy.

Xenostrata
07-08-2011, 05:01 PM
I would much prefer a "report item" option on the AH, for when whenever someone posts something waaaaayy too high. This could clear up a lot of clutter there. Realistically, there would have to be things preventing abuse - nothing that has been bid on can be reported, an item must be reported by 100 characters before it is removed, and nothing posted for equal to or less than base price x 5 can be reported. If an item is successfully reported, then it is mailed back to the character and cannot be reposted on the AH for a week.

That should get rid of the +5 holy scimitar of righteousness that has been sitting in there for 1 mil+ for a while now.

arvendel
07-09-2011, 12:31 PM
One thing that would be helpful is a average selling price for singles of an item. if we could get that info displayed at time of posting it may give a better idea at what to post the item at and a better handle on actual value.

how about that for a compromise. keeping the AH how it is but providing the players with more information to base posting off of.

Talias006
07-09-2011, 07:11 PM
No, actually, THEY DON'T. Even if you list a LDS by undercutting every other LDS price on the AH... chances are, it won't sell. Unless you list it at a price very, very close to what it sells in /trade, chances are, it won't sell. And if it did sell, you basically just sold it at a loss. This is a huge problem with the defunct AH as it is currently: it leads to less trade, more hoarding and less availability.

In short, it makes the game less fun.

I have not seen a decent argument for reducing 30% fee, which I agree with you, should be knocked back. The only arguments I have seen are:

1) "Change is bad, mkay"
2) Fights inflation. True - but at the cost of having an AH that doesn't work as well as it should.
3) "If it ain't broke don't fix it." (But this is clearly wrong, since the AH does not work in many ways that it SHOULD and DOES in other games. Mainly, the auction of high value items.)

I currently look at what a given item is selling for and undercut by about 10% or so. Most of the time, my items sell within a day or two. And yes, I do sell shroud ingredients in this fashion too.

Trying to change the way the AH works here off of what a similar system has in a different game isn't helping. Explain what you think the AH "SHOULD" work as you seem to think it does in other games, and help us understand your viewpoint better.


No no and no. This is wrong.

Read my above post and the following:

Price for shroud mats on the AH remain high, not because people are willing to buy, but because people are unwilling to sell at a lower price. You could easily undercut everyone and NOT sell.

An easy example is the price of large stones. Right now, the lowest buyout is 180k. Using a 30% discount = 120k. Do you REALLY think large stones are worth 120k? I have two dozen that I'd be willing to sell at an even lower price of 100k.

The people that put mats on the AH are basically hoping that someone desperate enough will come and buy things at an exorbitant price, in exchange for convenience. Sometimes that happens, but most of the time it doesn't. Most of the time, mats just sit on the AH and expire.

The fact is, laws of supply and demand don't always apply on the AH when there is price mismatch between the sellers and buyers.

Desperate people, and those with the plat to burn will buy the items as they are. No change needed.


Your economic understanding is severely lacking.

However, I do agree that the AH should be revamped.

They should remove the 'bid' part so there's only a buyout option and remove the AH tax.

I tentatively agree with the first and second line.
I disagree with the third line, just because we don't need a humongous Pawn Broker that sells basically everything under the sun, including kitchen sinks. :rolleyes:

Aaxeyu
07-09-2011, 07:17 PM
I disagree with the third line, just because we don't need a humongous Pawn Broker that sells basically everything under the sun, including kitchen sinks. :rolleyes:

Why not?