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bloodnose13
07-07-2011, 07:49 AM
Edit:
since this idea i posted was based on my wrong undestanding of the improved shield bash feat.
here is a altered version of my idea.

improved shield bash feat gives 20%. its bit too low chance.
what if the "defender" prestiges adding extra stacking (10%)?
chance for each tier of prestige. that would be 50% chance for extra shield bash requirement for this to work would be HAVEING the improved shield bash feat.

and there are other good ideas in this thread.

---------------old-post-----------------
Im pretty sure im not original, but:

shield mastery feat could give a 15% chance for shield attack to be added on any melee attack, improved shield mastery would enchance that with next +15% = would give shield users a bit extra dps and shield would stop being "just" a piece of equipment for occasional blocking. also it would be a even more wanted feat for any tank.

shield bash feat could give 15% chance for adding the weapon attack to shield bash, so oposite of the shield mastery, with improved again enchanceing it with next 15% chance.

shields have their own hit die, and enchancements for fighting that are rarely used as not many shield users even use bash (at least from what i noticed)

shield attack even could get some feat imposed "vorpal effect" being applyed to shield hit on natural 20 like unbalance or trip. just a idea though.

Ironforge_Clan
07-07-2011, 08:06 AM
Shield mastery and improved shield mastery were just re-worked so they provide a passive dr. While I do understand your position that a shield can be and was historically also used as an offensive attack, I'm not so sure that what you are suggesting would "work". I believe the way the developers have set it up the mastery feats are the defensive line and the bashing feats are the offensive line. What you are proposing is mixing them up and I don't think that is in the cards.

If they combined the feats into one line AND provided those who took that line with an animation within the attack chain for a shield bash or shield thrust (horizontal shield attack) then I'd be all for what you are suggesting. It might bring back a little more life into the sword and board arena...even if only for flavor.

bloodnose13
07-07-2011, 08:23 AM
i see this idea as a S&B twf, would make tanky chars get a bit more dps, also shield would stop be there just for the ride.

why i sugest changes to both feats, shield mastery is "defensive" only by name, it does not realy give anything special when you are realy turtled up and defensive, if i understand right that % dr is working even when you dont block. so shield bash is realy more defensive than shield mastery for that matter becosue it requires you to block

also it would just lower a bit the pain of takeing so many feats, when feat slots are so limited

Ironforge_Clan
07-07-2011, 10:17 AM
i see this idea as a S&B twf, would make tanky chars get a bit more dps, also shield would stop be there just for the ride.

On my fighter I don't consider his shield to be there for the ride. It would be nice as I stated previously if the shield were incorporated into the attach chain thereby getting what you refer to as s&B twf. Currently, if you want more dps drop the shield and twf. Its what I do when I don't need to turtle/intim.

why i sugest changes to both feats, shield mastery is "defensive" only by name, it does not realy give anything special when you are realy turtled up and defensive, if i understand right that % dr is working even when you dont block. so shield bash is realy more defensive than shield mastery for that matter becosue it requires you to block

You are correct that mastery doesn't require you to block and that bash does require you to be blocking to get the attack. I guess we look at it differently. Mastery to me is purely defensive and bash is purely offensive. Bash doesn't improve on your defensiveness it is simply an attack you can use when blocking whereas mastery certainly improves your defenses whether you are blocking or not.

also it would just lower a bit the pain of takeing so many feats, when feat slots are so limited

Completely agree with this. Four feats for something that is just meh is a bit much. I will say that with the changes to the mastery feats they are a huge improvement to what they were. I still would never take shield bash or improved shield bash on a fighter. In addition, I would not say feat slots are limited on a fighter...there are just much better options than shield bash at the moment.


My comments.

Also, if they ever did a complete rework of the fighter feats it would be spectacular if they would specifically look at these four feats and combined them into one line that was both offensive and defensive. If they included animations of both sides that would be icing on the cake.

Bilger
07-07-2011, 10:31 AM
i see this idea as a S&B twf, would make tanky chars get a bit more dps, also shield would stop be there just for the ride.

why i sugest changes to both feats, shield mastery is "defensive" only by name, it does not realy give anything special when you are realy turtled up and defensive, if i understand right that % dr is working even when you dont block. so shield bash is realy more defensive than shield mastery for that matter becosue it requires you to block

also it would just lower a bit the pain of takeing so many feats, when feat slots are so limited

Shield mastery now gives 20% damage reduction and Bashing feat now gives a 20% chance to strike with it.

Description of improved shield bash basically giving basic twf without feats.

Enables the character to retain the shield bonus to its Armor Class when using Shield Bash, and grants a 20% chance to make a secondary shield bash while attacking with a melee weapon.

So isn't this kinda what ya want anyways and it is already in game? Other than shield mastery giving lil more attacks.

Would be nice if there where feats to increase percent chance.

Asmodeus451
07-07-2011, 10:41 AM
with the inception of update 9, the Feats Improved Shield Bash, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery were changed.

Shield Mastery and Imp Shield Mastery now provide a % DR, when HOLDING a shield, not just blocking with it.

Imp Shield Bash grants a 20% chance to shield bash with a regular attack, which is (currently) effected by the TWF feats, upping it to up to an 80% chance per attack

as they are now, these feats are pretty solid IMO

Bilger
07-07-2011, 10:50 AM
with the inception of update 9, the Feats Improved Shield Bash, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery were changed.

Shield Mastery and Imp Shield Mastery now provide a % DR, when HOLDING a shield, not just blocking with it.

Imp Shield Bash grants a 20% chance to shield bash with a regular attack, which is (currently) effected by the TWF feats, upping it to up to an 80% chance per attack

as they are now, these feats are pretty solid IMO

Thats the first I have heard of twf line affecting it.

If true would be a nice boost for hate tanking if can fit feats.

I would geuss though if working that way was a unintended side affect but would be a welcome one if stays.

Asmodeus451
07-07-2011, 10:54 AM
pretty sure it has something to do with the way the Shield Bashing as an offhand attack was coded.

as to weather is WAI, cant say, but for one hope it stays

Can you imagine a Human Kensei Fighter with Bsword proff, full THF, Full TWF, and Imp Shield Bash?

the thought gives me chills

[edit: Shields can now also be crafted with the same Damage Enhancements as Weapons, so it makes this concept even MORE chill enducing]

Cyr
07-07-2011, 11:40 AM
pretty sure it has something to do with the way the Shield Bashing as an offhand attack was coded.

as to weather is WAI, cant say, but for one hope it stays

Can you imagine a Human Kensei Fighter with Bsword proff, full THF, Full TWF, and Imp Shield Bash?

the thought gives me chills

[edit: Shields can now also be crafted with the same Damage Enhancements as Weapons, so it makes this concept even MORE chill enducing]

This is also the first I have heard of this.

Can we get a confirm from another player on this one and more importantly a dev word on if this is WAI or not? I must say that a build based on this could be pretty compelling, but not if the whole mechanic is just a bug.

bloodnose13
07-07-2011, 01:45 PM
with the inception of update 9, the Feats Improved Shield Bash, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery were changed.

Shield Mastery and Imp Shield Mastery now provide a % DR, when HOLDING a shield, not just blocking with it.

Imp Shield Bash grants a 20% chance to shield bash with a regular attack, which is (currently) effected by the TWF feats, upping it to up to an 80% chance per attack

as they are now, these feats are pretty solid IMO

now i need a confirmation.
improved shield bash description say that you gain 20% chance for SECONDARY shield bash while attacking, so i understand it as you have 20% chance for shield to DOUBLE HIT on shield bash and not to be added to attack.

even if it is a 20% chance to be added on melee attack it would be better if the effect divided and placed on all requirement feats so with each feat you take the bonus grows, and you are not forced to take whole chain to gain full bonus.
thats about what i was sugesting, bonus should be cumulative.

i sugested it placed on the shield mastery as its a feat that by it name sugests it represents a skill with shield in fight so it sounds logical (to me) that its in defence and attack.
maybe shield mastery should be a first tier of the shield bash feat and shield bash feat line treated as upgrade of the bashing part of it.
just a thought.

Arlathen
07-07-2011, 01:56 PM
MAJOR INTEREST IN THREAD

TWF chain affects Shield Bash Percentage? Off to test now!

Arlathen
07-07-2011, 02:58 PM
Ok, I'll look into this some more, but Im fairly certain TWF feats don't affect Sheild Base % Proc. I was seeing bash attempts on the dummy roughly 1 in 5 times, or 20% chance.

I'll look into it some more again later.

ShadowFlash
07-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Now what if a feat crazy Dwarven Fighter took both TWF "and" THF lines "and" swung a Dwarven Axe ? Would he get the full TWFing chain with a shield equiped AND glancing blows and procs from the full THF chain with a Daxe or Bastard Sword ? THAT may be a "fix" to the low S&B DPS problem....I like it :)

And if that's considered Over-Powered, think of the feat investment need to get there...3x TWF, 3xTHF, and minimum 2x Shield Feats. Add in Toughness for a realistic 9 feat minimum ( 10 if not Dwarf for Daxe or BS proficiency ), and basically only fighters or fighter/monk splashes could pull it off. My Dwarven 14pally/6fighter Kensai Defender S&B build sure would look better :)

Bilger
07-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I have a hate tank pali that has both feats shield mastery and improved bash.

The bash procs as swinging regularly it has a clear animation that shows up as swinging when it does proc isn't greatest dps but extra dps and any extra help on a ac S&B hate/intim tank helps.

Aesop
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
I would not want TWF to affect Shield Bashing


I would instead like to see the basic Shield Use grant a basic 10% to Shield Bash and a small amount of Mitigation as well based on Shield Size

Buckler 0%
Light 5%
Heavy 10%
Tower 15%

Shield Mastery and Improve Shield Mastery could add 5-10% extra Mitigation and Improved Shield Bash add 20% to Shield Bash Proc.

topping out between 25-35% Mitigation
and
topped out Shield Bash at 30%...

That would be nice

Aesop

ShadowFlash
07-07-2011, 04:04 PM
I would not want TWF to affect Shield Bashing


I would instead like to see the basic Shield Use grant a basic 10% to Shield Bash and a small amount of Mitigation as well based on Shield Size

Buckler 0%
Light 5%
Heavy 10%
Tower 15%

Shield Mastery and Improve Shield Mastery could add 5-10% extra Mitigation and Improved Shield Bash add 20% to Shield Bash Proc.

topping out between 25-35% Mitigation
and
topped out Shield Bash at 30%...

That would be nice

Aesop

Reasoning behind this ? Even if the TWF chain affected shield bashing, it still would be substandard to pure TWF koepesh builds and would require quite the investment for full both line uberness. It would also enable those normal TWFers to take the 2 extra shield feats to trade some DPS ( substandard off-hand weapon ) for the damage mitigation, making shields situationaly useful for a lot of people. The TWF line would ONLY affect shields IF shield bash was taken. I think it's just what the doctor ordered to bring S&B back into regular useage. I don't see any potential for abuse as the investment cost is very high.

New Shield Bash Description:
This feat allows you to use your shield as a weapon in your off-hand and will benefit from the TWF feat chain.

This would still give the 20% proc rate initially just like any off-hand weapon, but could be expanded. They killed turtle-tanking and hurt intimitanking, so if pushing hate tanking, this would give S&B a nice boost to hate gen. Also, with very few DPS oriented ( or DR breaking ) shields in the game as of now, it would promote cannith crafting ( which is a nice incentive for turbine )

@ the OP: Sorry to get a little off your original topic here...but anything to help make S&B more viable.

Asmodeus451
07-07-2011, 09:18 PM
I would not want TWF to affect Shield Bashing


I would instead like to see the basic Shield Use grant a basic 10% to Shield Bash and a small amount of Mitigation as well based on Shield Size

Buckler 0%
Light 5%
Heavy 10%
Tower 15%

Shield Mastery and Improve Shield Mastery could add 5-10% extra Mitigation and Improved Shield Bash add 20% to Shield Bash Proc.

topping out between 25-35% Mitigation
and
topped out Shield Bash at 30%...

That would be nice

Aesop

from DDO Wiki:

Shield Mastery: Physical damage vulnerability is decreased by 10% when using a buckler or small shield, 15% when using a large shield, or 20% when using a tower shield.

Improved Shield Mastery: Physical damage vulnerability is decreased by an additional 5% when using a shield, for a total of 15% when using a buckler or small shield, 20% when using a large shield, or 25% when using a tower shield.

so you do get Damage Mitigation while HOLDING (not just blocking with) a shield, you just have to take the feats




This would still give the 20% proc rate initially just like any off-hand weapon, but could be expanded. They killed turtle-tanking and hurt intimitanking, so if pushing hate tanking, this would give S&B a nice boost to hate gen. Also, with very few DPS oriented ( or DR breaking ) shields in the game as of now, it would promote cannith crafting ( which is a nice incentive for turbine )

Cannith Crafting allows you to make some killer DPS Shields. ANY shard that can be applied to a wweapon can ALSO be applied to a shield. Add in the fact that Mithral counts as Silver for DR breaking purposes, and you could Craft a Holy Burst Mithral X Shield of X and it would break DR.

I also like your idea of changing the description of Ipm SB to make it clearer that thats what it does, as it seems this is the way it was coded.

ShadowFlash
07-07-2011, 09:57 PM
I also like your idea of changing the description of Ipm SB to make it clearer that thats what it does, as it seems this is the way it was coded.

Unfortunately AFAIK this is NOT how it's coded. This was a suggested change to improve it. The TWF does NOT affect shield bashing ATM.

RJBsComputer
07-07-2011, 11:18 PM
I have always felt a Sword and Shield feat line needs to be created to give it as much love as TWF and THF. This way there would be three fighting style choices to truely choose from......THF, TWF, and S&B.

Asmodeus451
07-08-2011, 12:47 AM
Unfortunately AFAIK this is NOT how it's coded. This was a suggested change to improve it. The TWF does NOT affect shield bashing ATM.

this is contrary to what i have been told in other threads by those who have tested it.

in EVERY other way, shields are treated as weapons in the game's code now (crafting shards, for example), why would this be diferent?

Aesop
07-08-2011, 05:45 AM
Reasoning behind this ? Even if the TWF chain affected shield bashing, it still would be substandard to pure TWF koepesh builds and would require quite the investment for full both line uberness. It would also enable those normal TWFers to take the 2 extra shield feats to trade some DPS ( substandard off-hand weapon ) for the damage mitigation, making shields situationaly useful for a lot of people. The TWF line would ONLY affect shields IF shield bash was taken. I think it's just what the doctor ordered to bring S&B back into regular useage. I don't see any potential for abuse as the investment cost is very high.

New Shield Bash Description:
This feat allows you to use your shield as a weapon in your off-hand and will benefit from the TWF feat chain.

This would still give the 20% proc rate initially just like any off-hand weapon, but could be expanded. They killed turtle-tanking and hurt intimitanking, so if pushing hate tanking, this would give S&B a nice boost to hate gen. Also, with very few DPS oriented ( or DR breaking ) shields in the game as of now, it would promote cannith crafting ( which is a nice incentive for turbine )

@ the OP: Sorry to get a little off your original topic here...but anything to help make S&B more viable.

I am definitely opposed to the TWF feats affecting S&B style. You may wonder why. The answer is that the styles need to be very distinct and separate otherwise you are effectively making them all the same.

Now not to make thinks off the wall crazy but I'd go with the following



TWF
No Feat: 20% off hand Proc
TWF Feat: 40% off hand Proc
ITWF Feat: 60% off hand Proc
GTWF Feat: 80% off hand Proc


THF
No Feat: 15% Glancing Blow 0% Effect Proc
THF: 30% Glancing Blow 5% Effect Proc
ITHF: 45% Glancing Blow 10% Effect Proc
GTHF: 60% Glancing Blow 15% Effect Proc

S&B
Shield Use: 10-20% Shield Bash 0-15% Shield Mitigation based on Shield Type
Improved Shield Bash: 30-40% Shield Bash
Shield Mastery +10% Shield Mitigation
Improved Shield Mastery: +10% Shield Mitigation


If twitch play causes a problem with this a penalty could be applied or it could be a sliding scale based on attack sequence. maybe drop the attacking % while moving and have it increase based on the 4 attack 0/0/5/10% or something.

Then have Spring Attack remove the penalty.

The point is 3 distinct melee styles. Heck I don't like THF feats affecting Bastard Sword and Dwarven War Axe and would prefer them to have an Enhancement line instead to improve their Glancing Blows. Otherwise you have a single style and build theory to have the best of all worlds.

Aesop

oh: Also this is before any Enhancements like Tempest or Great Weapon Mastery etc

Aesop
07-08-2011, 05:50 AM
from DDO Wiki:

Shield Mastery: Physical damage vulnerability is decreased by 10% when using a buckler or small shield, 15% when using a large shield, or 20% when using a tower shield.

Improved Shield Mastery: Physical damage vulnerability is decreased by an additional 5% when using a shield, for a total of 15% when using a buckler or small shield, 20% when using a large shield, or 25% when using a tower shield.

so you do get Damage Mitigation while HOLDING (not just blocking with) a shield, you just have to take the feats

.

Yes that is correct. Additionally you also can actively Block to gain the Blocking DR as well (unless that's changed and I just haven't been paying attention). I just think the numbers are too low across the board and could use a slight buff and a broadening of the effect.

Asmodeus451
07-08-2011, 06:02 AM
25% passive Damage mitigation is ALOT

for example, if Suulo hits you for, say, 150 damage, ~37 never hits you, on top of any other DR you may have

i do like the idea of making it more powerful tho, to make S&S appeal to more players.

how bout this: the damage mitigation from wielding a shield with the SM or imp SM feats also applies to ray and blast type spells (i.e. Polar Ray or Acid blast), under the assumption that a master of shields would be able to block such spells at least partially

bloodnose13
07-08-2011, 06:28 AM
how bout this: the damage mitigation from wielding a shield with the SM or imp SM feats also applies to ray and blast type spells (i.e. Polar Ray or Acid blast), under the assumption that a master of shields would be able to block such spells at least partially

this sounds kind of logical, idk how it would look thrown against the dnd rules but, even in ddo there is a loading screen showing a fullplated fighter blocking a dragons fire with a shield!! even now you can block some of enemy special attacks by blocking with shield at right moment (like scorpion poison stinger attack) so maybe it could apply a bit of % dr to spell damage.

i dont see my first post sugestion as a full and only right idea. everyone with ideas on the topic are welcome to drop them here.

S&B needs a bit of upgradeing still.

Xenostrata
07-08-2011, 12:31 PM
I like that ISB gives a chance to throw a shield bash into the attack chain, but replacing it with giving the chance of an attack during a shield bash won't do much, since the shield bash animation is WAY too slow for anyone to use it for dps.

Maybe have ISB increase the attack speed of shield bashes up to something equal to normal attacks? Nothing to make it better than swinging a weapon, but something to make it worth spending a feat so that someone could shield block and still do some damage.

ShadowFlash
07-08-2011, 04:46 PM
with the inception of update 9, the Feats Improved Shield Bash, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery were changed.

Shield Mastery and Imp Shield Mastery now provide a % DR, when HOLDING a shield, not just blocking with it.

Imp Shield Bash grants a 20% chance to shield bash with a regular attack, which is (currently) effected by the TWF feats, upping it to up to an 80% chance per attack

as they are now, these feats are pretty solid IMO

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3911634&posted=1#post3911634

See post #33....tested...TWF does NOT affect shield bashing as I expected. Would be sweet if it did.

RJBsComputer
07-09-2011, 07:20 PM
I'm more in favor of having a Feat Line for basic use of S&B that increases AC and DR and then have an enhancement line that is base on the Feat Line level that brings the shield into a more active roll in fighting. I was thinking like a 4 teir line with the 3rd and 4th teir being unlocked with the last two Feat selections fo the S&B Feat Line.{Feat Line - S&B; Improved S&B, Greater S&B, and Superior S&B}

The Deflect Arrows Feat of Monks reminds me of the Ray Weapon Defense you are talking about. So there could be a seperate Feat for Ray and Missle Weapon Blocking. It can be almost just like the Monk Deflect Arrows Feat that says "Once every few seconds, you are able to block some projectiles that would otherwise hit you." It could also have the same percentages too or play with the numbers to find a happy middle ground.

baddax
07-09-2011, 10:18 PM
25% passive Damage mitigation is ALOT

for example, if Suulo hits you for, say, 150 damage, ~37 never hits you, on top of any other DR you may have

i do like the idea of making it more powerful tho, to make S&S appeal to more players.

how bout this: the damage mitigation from wielding a shield with the SM or imp SM feats also applies to ray and blast type spells (i.e. Polar Ray or Acid blast), under the assumption that a master of shields would be able to block such spells at least partially

That is an excellent idea! +1

Artos_Fabril
07-09-2011, 11:05 PM
I would not want TWF to affect Shield Bashing


I would instead like to see the basic Shield Use grant a basic 10% to Shield Bash and a small amount of Mitigation as well based on Shield Size

Buckler 0%
Light 5%
Heavy 10%
Tower 15%

Shield Mastery and Improve Shield Mastery could add 5-10% extra Mitigation and Improved Shield Bash add 20% to Shield Bash Proc.

topping out between 25-35% Mitigation
and
topped out Shield Bash at 30%...

That would be nice

Aesop
Take this a step further to include both sides of the coin... or shield, as it were.


Shield Use
Type Bash Proc Mitigation %
Buckler 10% 0%
Small Shield 10% 5%
Large Shield 5% 10%

Tower Shield Proficiency
Type Bash Proc Mitigation %
Tower Shield 10% 10%

Shield Mastery
Type Bash Proc Mitigation %
Buckler 15% 0%
Small Shield 10% 5%
Large Shield 5% 10%
Tower Shield 0% 15%


Improved Shield Mastery
Type Bash Proc Mitigation %
Buckler 10% 5%
Small Shield 10% 10%
Large Shield 5% 10%
Tower Shield 0% 15%


Shield Bash
+20% Bash proc rate

Improved Shield Bash
+20% Bash proc rate

With 4 purchased feats, that gives 75% shield bash proc and 5% mitigation on bucklers, or 50% proc rate and 40% mitigation on tower shield.

Tower shield having an innate bash proc and a higher innate mitigation% is a benefit to fighters, and rewards other shield tank classes for purchasing tower shield proficiency or splashing fighter (locking out their capstones)

You could also allow bucklers to do base 1d6 or unarmed damage, whichever is higher, and allow things like monk active PL affect the buckler's base damage, if you wanted to further encourage splash or feat heavy builds.

Myxalplyx
08-02-2011, 02:34 AM
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Gonna make this build very soon for testing. I like 'weird' stuff like this. Thanks guys!