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risinginferno
07-03-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm going for pure 20 THF Barb and I wanna know which is the better axe to craft first now. I was reading how you can cannith craft a better DR breaker. How easily is this to do if this is my only character and it is currently level 15. I have mostly all the materials to make either or since they differ little in what they need.

Dilbon
07-03-2011, 12:40 PM
There's no point in crafting a Min2 greataxe any more. Getting 35 arcane and divine levels to make a +4 holy silver/cold iron of evil outsider bane is pretty fast. And of course there's the epic Antique Greataxe.

Boegvar
07-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Crafting a +4 holy silver of lawful outsider bane weapon is pretty easy. You need crafting levels of 35 in divine and arcane crafting to be able to craft the shards you need.
You need around 15-20 shround runs to get the required mats to craft a min2 weapon, thats more than 6 weeks if you run shroud every time you are able to.
I would craft a lit2 weapon

grayham
07-03-2011, 12:46 PM
They are both excellent weapons, but the Lit2 is more handy in more situations. If you're running Tower of Despair on Hard, or similar quest with DR issues, then min2 is the choice, but given that most devils don't have damage reduction against lightning-not to mention the 2-3% chance of lightning strike, Lit2 is the way forward my friend.

Crafting? Fine, but I think it takes longer than people think to get decent crafting levels, IMO.

Epic Antique greataxe? Nice if you can get it, but within 15-20 shrouds you will certainly have enough Lds or tradeable's to make your GS, whereas you can do all the Carnival quest 1000's of times and not get the bits for the Epic Greataxe.

p.s Shade has a very useful section on epic/L20 gear in his barb guide. Click on my friends and then a link in there to his pages.

EDIT link here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296816

risinginferno
07-03-2011, 01:05 PM
Wow I went to take a shower and got all these nice replies so quickly. (such a nice difference from WoW forums) Thanks guys!

R0cksteady
07-03-2011, 01:44 PM
It took me about a week and a half to get 35 in divine and arcane crafting, doing it casually without buying a ton of greaters. It takes me a LOT longer to get greensteel ingredients, since I'm poor and don't play as much as I used to. I would say Lit II. It's a much better weapon in almost every situation, except hard and elite shroud/ToD/VoD, and epic DQ.

Now, while the lit II will pretty much be your go to DPS weapon until epic SOS, which could take a long time depending on luck with the shard, the Min II is outclassed as a DR breaker by a +4 holy silver x of lawful outsider bane, let alone the better versions you can craft higher up, so Min II might be a taken spot in the bank in a little while.

aristarchus1000
07-03-2011, 05:20 PM
Crafting casually, I'd say 3 weeks. That's probably slow, but I did it just using essences I collected while playing the game normally plus breaking down worthless vendor trash. In addition, once you level one crafter up you are basically set for devil-beaters for any other melee characters you ever build.

Definitely easier than collecting the 24 large ingredients for a Min2. In fact, you will pick up plenty of vendor trash while farming Shroud along the way, so you essentially can build your Lit2 and your Boss Beater/DR breaker at the same time.

nolaureltree000
07-03-2011, 05:29 PM
with only one toon, it will take awhile for you to get to a high enough crafting level for a holy/bane beater or alot of money. since crafting went live, ive been taking all my pulled loot and deconstructing it. then i send all the essences to one toon and he levels up his crafting levels. ive just recently gotten all my levels to 40ish.

if you havent even started crafting yet or dont have a whole bunch of plat to dump into it, make a min II.

Jaid314
07-03-2011, 06:18 PM
with only one toon, it will take awhile for you to get to a high enough crafting level for a holy/bane beater or alot of money. since crafting went live, ive been taking all my pulled loot and deconstructing it. then i send all the essences to one toon and he levels up his crafting levels. ive just recently gotten all my levels to 40ish.

if you havent even started crafting yet or dont have a whole bunch of plat to dump into it, make a min II.

it would be substantially faster to sell all the greensteel ingredients you would need to make a min II, buy a ton of cannith crafting essences, and level your cannith crafting up to 35 in arcane and divine than it would be to save up the ingredients needed to make a min II weapon. and by "sell all the greensteel ingredients", i actually mean "sell off a few of the less valuable ones", because you definitely don't need 24 larges worth of crafting essences to get to 35 in arcane and divine.

Zerkul
07-03-2011, 06:46 PM
I'm going for pure 20 THF Barb and I wanna know which is the better axe to craft first now. I was reading how you can cannith craft a better DR breaker. How easily is this to do if this is my only character and it is currently level 15. I have mostly all the materials to make either or since they differ little in what they need.

Make a Lightning II ... it's better than mineral II on most raid bosses on normal [Harry, sally, horoth] ... You can always make a Antique Greataxe instead of mineral II.

sirgog
07-03-2011, 07:13 PM
Never make a Min 2 on any character unless you need a special property like +4 insight to AC. They are obsolete now - Cannith gear is just far better. A +4 Holy Silver (or similar) weapon from the auction house will do until you can craft a +4 Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane weapon.

A Lit 2 Falchion (Greataxe instead if dwarf) is the third or fourth best THF weapon in the game (behind the Epic Sword of Shadow, Epic Xuum, and possibly the classic Sword of Shadow depending upon your gear level). It is well worth the ingredients unless you already have a classic SoS.

Kinerd
07-03-2011, 07:39 PM
The other thing to keep in mind is that once you can craft one Cannith boss beater, crafting another requires a tiny fraction of the previous investment. When you can craft one Min II boss beater, crafting another requires almost exactly as much as previous investment.

chodelord
07-03-2011, 07:44 PM
DR on glancing blows pushes in favor of min 2, lit 2 doesn't proc on glancing so it doesn't scale with 2 handers like it does with twf

lit2 might be trivially better for trash but it is way worse for bosses with a few exceptions on normal only

Jaid314
07-03-2011, 07:49 PM
DR on glancing blows pushes in favor of min 2, lit 2 doesn't proc on glancing so it doesn't scale with 2 handers like it does with twf

lit2 might be trivially better for trash but it is way worse for bosses with a few exceptions on normal only

but as has been pointed out, it is (comparatively) trivial to make a cannith-crafted weapon instead.

i mean, it may not be the easiest thing in the world for someone starting out to get to 35 in two schools, but it's a lot cheaper than getting 24 larges, never mind the mediums, smalls, or blank ingredients. it simply doesn't even come close.

sirgog
07-03-2011, 07:50 PM
DR on glancing blows pushes in favor of min 2, lit 2 doesn't proc on glancing so it doesn't scale with 2 handers like it does with twf

lit2 might be trivially better for trash but it is way worse for bosses with a few exceptions on normal only

Lit 2 outclasses Min 2 on trash, and Min 2 is worse on bosses than Cannith gear.

Crafting a Min 2 is the biggest waste of ingredients I can think of. Why invest a lot of resources making something that's not the best weapon on anything, and not even close to it?

HelvanderSeries6
07-03-2011, 08:16 PM
Lit 2 outclasses Min 2 on trash, and Min 2 is worse on bosses than Cannith gear.

Crafting a Min 2 is the biggest waste of ingredients I can think of. Why invest a lot of resources making something that's not the best weapon on anything, and not even close to it?

Agreed.
I cant think of any reasons to have a minII with maybe the exception being an encounter with a Marilith/Demon Queen given the new chages but a Cannith weapon would still out perform all the way around.
A LitII would be my first choice and i would also think a Trip Pos maul would be a good idea as a second GS weapon given the changes to greater disruption for encounters with undead during the leveling up process.

Dilbon
07-03-2011, 08:50 PM
Min2 can still be a nice general purpose weapon for someone without the improved critical feat.

haku-ba
07-03-2011, 09:03 PM
I strongly suggest you make a Lit II. I made a Min II a long time ago and now it is just a Stoneskin clicky. I still use the Lit II.

risinginferno
07-03-2011, 11:09 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys! I decided to go with a lit2 since with only a little bit of messing around I was able to get arcane and divine up to 20 each today. So I guess I'll just craft myself a boss beater.

Jaid314
07-04-2011, 12:09 AM
Agreed.
I cant think of any reasons to have a minII with maybe the exception being an encounter with a Marilith/Demon Queen given the new chages but a Cannith weapon would still out perform all the way around.
A LitII would be my first choice and i would also think a Trip Pos maul would be a good idea as a second GS weapon given the changes to greater disruption for encounters with undead during the leveling up process.

actually, i think in most cases a min II would be better vs a marilith (especially against the holy cold iron of COB, though still better than the holy burst cold iron of GCOB). the real question is, how much are you willing to invest into dealing slightly better damage against a single meaningful enemy in the entire game? the only one that even matters is queen lailat on epic, really.

svinja
07-04-2011, 09:11 AM
actually, i think in most cases a min II would be better vs a marilith (especially against the holy cold iron of COB, though still better than the holy burst cold iron of GCOB). the real question is, how much are you willing to invest into dealing slightly better damage against a single meaningful enemy in the entire game? the only one that even matters is queen lailat on epic, really.

What do you mean by "in most cases"? How does a min2 come even close to a +5 holy burst cold iron GCOB against a marilith? I just don't see how you're getting this result.

Illiain
07-04-2011, 09:28 AM
There are only 2 benefits for a Min2.

One, it breaks DR on almost everything and frees up inventory space. If you're the type that hates having 20 pairs of weapons cluttering up your bag space and you're willing to have lower dps for a cleaner bag then they're the weapon for you.

Two, you have an odd feat starved caster/melee build and can't spare the Improved Critical feat. On trash and anything not immune/resistant to acid Min2's deal respectable damage. It's still less than Lit2's, unless something is immune to lightning, but better than random drop weapons.

If neither of these situations can be applied to you, then you're better off making the Lit2s for higher damage and crafting the +4 holy burst (silver/cold iron) GEOB as boss beaters.

Khanyth
07-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Min II

1. You get a great weapon starting at level 12, which you can't for the EAGA
2. A DR breaking weapon is fantastic
3. If you have multiple toons, GS items can come quicker than crafting levels

It's personal opinion, I guess

Morosy
07-04-2011, 12:22 PM
3. If you have multiple toons, GS items can come quicker than crafting levels



Well you mention multiple toons making it easier to farm for GS, but simply having multiples means a lot of greensteel to make :O

The situation you listed would benefit a lot more by reaching the crafting levels only once, then making weapons for every char, instead of repeating a weapon grind every char.

And as for having a great weapon at level 12, yes it's awesome, but if you just craft a Lit II it's even better at 12 :)

Shade
07-04-2011, 01:03 PM
meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

Jaid314
07-04-2011, 03:49 PM
What do you mean by "in most cases"? How does a min2 come even close to a +5 holy burst cold iron GCOB against a marilith? I just don't see how you're getting this result.



min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20.

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 27.5, 5% * 80.5, 5% * 94.5 = 32.125 damage/swing (average)

HB CI of GCOB: 1d12 base + 2d6 holy burst + 3d6 bane + 9 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 2d12 base + 4d6 holy burst + 18 enhancement on a critical hit

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 33, and 10% * 78 = 35.85 damage/swing (average).

so ok, it's pretty close, and slightly in favor of cannith crafting i guess. with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc). but at least you do need to get up to that greater bane and holy burst first, so it's a bit more competitive (35 cannith crafting is easy, 65+ is a fair amount more grind involved)

also, looking at shade's list...

constructs (you listed twice): ideally you will have a bludgeoning adamantine weapon. min II (especially greataxe) does not fit that goal. further, clay golems heal from acid damage, it deals less damage in general to some of them, and most won't take the min II holy damage.

mariliths: as was just shown, eventually cannith crafting pulls ahead. in the short term, yeah... i guess min II is a pretty good margin ahead. but again, are you really going to burn 24 larges just so you can be a tiny bit better against the demon queen?

flesh renders: the holy/cold iron/COB weapon is, again, pretty close. the HB/CI/GCOB weapon is superior.

all other demons: same as mariliths and flesh renders. if these were more common, it might be a concern, but we really don't fight many of them at all.

mind flayers: if there were any particularly challenging ones in the game, i'd be worried.

tharaak hounds: have you gone mad? tharaak hounds are immune to acid damage.

elementals, undead, etc: ok, slight advantage. but against most of them, lit II does just as well (except for abbot).

the only reason i would consider making a min II weapon at this point in the game is if i had absolutely nothing to do with a great big pile of greensteel ingredients.

DrNuegebauer
07-04-2011, 04:04 PM
meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

Hmmmm - I don't think that's all quite true?

Does a Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane ONLY work on pit fiends?

It works on any kind of devil; tieflings; efreet; hellhounds; bezekiera etc etc

And if you also craft a Holy of Chaotic Outsider Bane then you've also got all the demons covered (best bet would be an 'all in one' Holy Silver EOB - slightly higher min level, but no switching for the trash mobs)

So they don't JUST work against Pit fiends...


Second thing is that a Lit II is ALSO min level 12. So that could certainly be used as a TR - oh an it works pretty well against most trash evil outsiders anyway.
If you're worried about golems, just pick up the Maul of Vengeance for a couple of hundred plat off the AH - adamantine bludgeoning weapon!


A minII means you don't have to swap around all that often - but a Lit II would be better in most scenarios against most enemies. Sure, against bosses you're at a disadvantage - but swap out to your (easily) crafted HSEOB and you're good to go!

DrNuegebauer
07-04-2011, 04:08 PM
For the Original Question:

Grind out the Shroud mats required to craft a MinII or Lit II (but don't make anything yet).
By the time you've got them all, gather up all the greater essences that you've collected, deconstruct a few runs worth of loot - and you'd have enough essences to get to the required crafting levels for Holy Outsider Bane.

Spend maybe 2 hours levelling your crafter to the point of making your 'DR breakers' and then ask yourself again if you want a MinII or LitII.
My guess would be a LitII at that stage?

Kinerd
07-04-2011, 05:54 PM
with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc).FB multiplier increases don't affect burst/blast effects. By fairly astonishing coincidence, both weapons have equal multipliable damage: 3d6 + 5 = 15.5 = 1d12 + 9, so the increased crit multiplier has no relative effect.

Also, Tharaak Hounds have DR/Lawful. They are one of the very few enemy DRs that a Min II will not break. They would also not have their DR broken by a Lailat-focused weapon, but would certainly by a Tharaak Hound-focused weapon, which is eminently craftable. A Mineral II is still "good" against them, but like every other target, it is not the best.

Gkar
07-04-2011, 05:58 PM
Crafting? Fine, but I think it takes longer than people think to get decent crafting levels, IMO.

I finally got sick of just deconstructing what I brought in and bought 800Kplat worth of greater essances. It took me from L20 to 45 in maybe 90 minutes.

If you had no other cash and just sold your first 2 devil scales that would be enough to do the job, and once you do it once you can cheaply craft for all your alts. I ALWAYS used to craft MinII first (well, except my rogue), and now I think its pretty much a bad choice.

DrNuegebauer
07-04-2011, 06:44 PM
I finally got sick of just deconstructing what I brought in and bought 800Kplat worth of greater essances. It took me from L20 to 45 in maybe 90 minutes.

If you had no other cash and just sold your first 2 devil scales that would be enough to do the job, and once you do it once you can cheaply craft for all your alts. I ALWAYS used to craft MinII first (well, except my rogue), and now I think its pretty much a bad choice.

The unspoken bonus here is that having a crafted weapon means you have a crafter - and you can deck out your alts with +4 beater weapons - at the cost of 0 shrouds.

sirgog
07-04-2011, 07:14 PM
meh.

too many people talk and post recommendations as if the only thing that exists in the game is pit fiends.

not the case.

If it was.. Sure, dont worry about the min2.

But its not. Not nearly.

Mineral2 are defenitely still an awesome all around weapon. Even if you already have a crafted hSlob wep crafted.

Because no matter how many times these crazies try to tell you the only thing we fight in this game is pitfiends - they are wrong.

A Hslob is good for:
pit fiends

A mineral 2 is good for:
pit fiends (a Hslob has a very minor dps advantage)
constructs
mariliths
flesh renders
all other demons..
constructs - any with adamantine dr, which is nearly all of them
mind flayers
tharaak hounds
elementals, undead or any 100% fort target not resistant to acid as a min2 has very solid base dmg + lots of acid damage.
.. think you get the point.

Mineral2: Best all-around until you can get a ESoS.

HSlob: Like it sounds.... Serves one purpose.. slobbering pitfiends.

Now you could go and craft a dozen different greater banes in various metal types.. But thats really not that easy nor cheap. Was be far more cost effective to just get the min2 and be done with it in 1 go.

Lit2 is nice too, but covers far fewer monster types as theres no dr breaking and quite a few differnet monster types have lightning resistance/immunity.
And for what its best for- trash devils.. It gets obsoleted by ESoS.

Mineral 2 never quite becomes 100% obsolete. I mean I have a rather insane assortment of weapons including almost all of the above (esos, globshober, various GS. And I still pull out my min2 for certain targets, very few yes.. but not quite all...

There's also the TR reason:
Min2 like all shroud weps are ml12.. Min2 at lvl12 is ultra powerful and pretty much is the only weapon you need for several levels as its enough to tear down everything at that lvl. Now sure a lit2 may also be, but min2 is a better all-around.
Not sure what ml the hslob is.. whatever it is, its not a great tr wep as it only covers 1 enemy type you dont encounter much at lvl12ish anyways.

And if they didn't screw up belasherra and make him a weak punk, i could of used ito n him.. Freakin 12 dr on elite and he dies in 5 seconds.. Lord of beholders my *!@#.. Meh.

Almost all of those targets, a Lit 2 is better than a Min 2.

Elementals? Lit 2 is far better.
Pit Fiends? Lit 2 is better on Normal, especially with all the Air Savants around.
Undead? Lit 2 all the way until you can get the resources to make a triple positive blunt weapon.
Demons? If you can craft a Holy Silver of Bane weapon, you can craft a Holy Cold Iron of Bane which is as good on Demons as a Min 2, but costs less than a Greensteel blank. For most Demons (albeit not Lailat) a Holy Silver of Evil Outsider Bane works fine too.
As for constructs - an Anarchic Adamantine Maul of Construct Bane (not too hard to craft) breaks all of their DRs. A Min 2 Greataxe doesn't get the most important construct DR, 20/Blunt AND Adamantine (Epic Clay Golems), or the second most important (30?/chaotic) on the epic VON3 marut.


On the other hand, unless you are close to having an eSOS or eXuum crafted, a Lit 2 is the best weapon you can get for almost every single boss and trash mob in the game. On anything without DR (which is most things) the Lit 2 is better than a +5 Holy Burst Greater Bane.

Oh and whatever you do, make a Falchion unless you have a very good reason not to.

voxson5
07-04-2011, 07:33 PM
min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20.

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 27.5, 5% * 80.5, 5% * 94.5 = 32.125 damage/swing (average)

HB CI of GCOB: 1d12 base + 2d6 holy burst + 3d6 bane + 9 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 2d12 base + 4d6 holy burst + 18 enhancement on a critical hit

that's: 5% miss, 85% * 33, and 10% * 78 = 35.85 damage/swing (average).

so ok, it's pretty close, and slightly in favor of cannith crafting i guess. with a FB getting an extra multiplier on the critical, it probably swings further in favor of cannith crafting actually (the +4 from bane multiplies indefinitely, none of the burst/blast effects go higher than x4 iirc). but at least you do need to get up to that greater bane and holy burst first, so it's a bit more competitive (35 cannith crafting is easy, 65+ is a fair amount more grind involved)

also, looking at shade's list...

constructs (you listed twice): ideally you will have a bludgeoning adamantine weapon. min II (especially greataxe) does not fit that goal. further, clay golems heal from acid damage, it deals less damage in general to some of them, and most won't take the min II holy damage.

mariliths: as was just shown, eventually cannith crafting pulls ahead. in the short term, yeah... i guess min II is a pretty good margin ahead. but again, are you really going to burn 24 larges just so you can be a tiny bit better against the demon queen?

flesh renders: the holy/cold iron/COB weapon is, again, pretty close. the HB/CI/GCOB weapon is superior.

all other demons: same as mariliths and flesh renders. if these were more common, it might be a concern, but we really don't fight many of them at all.

mind flayers: if there were any particularly challenging ones in the game, i'd be worried.

tharaak hounds: have you gone mad? tharaak hounds are immune to acid damage.

elementals, undead, etc: ok, slight advantage. but against most of them, lit II does just as well (except for abbot).

the only reason i would consider making a min II weapon at this point in the game is if i had absolutely nothing to do with a great big pile of greensteel ingredients.

Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

*edit - Also, personal note, i would always put good burst instead of holy into a minII, damages far more enemies than holy & the extra burst damage is well worth it*

sirgog
07-04-2011, 07:42 PM
Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

Lit 2 with Imp Crit outclasses Min 2 without it. Actually Lit 2 + iCrit (without Power Attack) does as much damage as Min 2 with Power Attack.

Maybe on a pure TWF bard (as feat-starved a build as I can think of) that uses the post-changes Epic Kron'zek's Cruelty as their DPS weapon and Min 2s as their DR breakers, there might be a reason to craft Min 2s.

But who cares about DR before about level 15? Elite Threnal has the highest DRs I can think of at 15/holy and cold iron. If you decide to run that at 12, a Lit 2 is still about as good as a Min 2. The only higher DR that comes to mind is the elite VON3 Marut at 20, but a Min 2 doesn't break that anyway.

And if you really want to do an underlevel Shroud or VoD when you are 14, just make a +3 HS EOB weapon instead of a +4 one. Simple. Still beats a Min 2.



Never waste larges on a Min 2 except in one situation - your AC buffs to the mid-70s or better without it, and you intend to put +4 AC on it.

voxson5
07-04-2011, 07:59 PM
Lit 2 with Imp Crit outclasses Min 2 without it. Actually Lit 2 + iCrit (without Power Attack) does as much damage as Min 2 with Power Attack.


Not debating that. Simply talking about crafting vs GS.

voxson5
07-04-2011, 08:04 PM
And if you really want to do an underlevel Shroud or VoD when you are 14, just make a +3 HS EOB weapon instead of a +4 one.

greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 2d6 vs EO +3 enhancement + 2 vs EO


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

*edited to correct bane damage (+2 & +2d6, not just +1d6)*

Gkar
07-04-2011, 08:14 PM
Don't forget that a minII will also potentially save you from taking iCRIT.

You also need to make a proper comparison - GS is ml:12. Go craft a ml:12 weapon & redo your calculations

*edit - Also, personal note, i would always put good burst instead of holy into a minII, damages far more enemies than holy & the extra burst damage is well worth it*

Personally I compare it to a +4 holy silver LOB. That's a L15 (I believe) crafted weapon, which means its available at the point you start running into devils. Against devils that's a +6 weapon instead of +5 for GS and picks up 2d6 bane damage to make up for the lower base damage. It's pretty much comparable, and at a much lower cost.

And a min II only saves you iCRIT if you only have 1 weapon in your golf bag. How many melees swing one and only one weapon ever? If that is your playstyle, then yes, Min II wins as a good general beater that saves a feat.

sirgog
07-04-2011, 08:31 PM
greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 1d6 vs EO +3 enhancement


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

Against Pit Fiends, they have 30 or more Acid Resistance. All of them. Still. So drop all that acid.

Against trash devils, use your Lit 2 that you made with all the materials you did not waste on the Min 2.


Oh and it's Bane, so +5 enhancement, and 2d6 more damage.

Duke-H-
07-04-2011, 09:05 PM
greataxe was used in previous examples:

min II: 3d6 base + 2d6 holy + 1d6 acid burst +1d4 slicing +5 enhancement on a normal hit, add another 6d6 base + 4d10 acid +10 enhancement on a 19, and an additional 4d6 acid beyond that on a 20

vs your +3 HS of EOB:

crafted: 1d12 + 2d6 holy + 1d6 vs EO +3 enhancement


I respect your views very much Sirgog, but i think you slipped up on this one

Remove all acid damage, its not relevant.
EOB is +2 and 2d6.
Holy can be removed since it's on both weapons.


MinII | +3HsEOB
enhanc 5 | 5 (3+2 EOB)
base 3d6 | 1d12
bleed 1d4 | 2d6 EOB

Cannith crafting wins out in most of the situations where you'd have wanted a MinII before. Even before you consider the cost. And 24 larges is a lot even compared to the one time effort of leveling Cannith crafting.

voxson5
07-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Remove all acid damage, its not relevant.


Because why? VoD/ToD/ eChrono & eDA all have mobs that are not immune to acid damage, all but 2 epics (3 if you count the optional in the deeps) have enemies that will take acid damage, vale quests, the U10 pack, Shavarath quests and the SubT all have enemies that take acid damage.

Because it wont hurt a pit fiend?

If all you care about is being at cap, then yes - an assortment of crafted weapons specific to enemies that you are fighting would work out better. But by the same rational, a eSOS/SOS/eXuum/lit II is much better.

Yes, against anything that isn;t electrically resistant/immune, a lit II is a far superior weapon to a minII

stille_nacht
07-04-2011, 10:13 PM
Because why? VoD/ToD/ eChrono & eDA all have mobs that are not immune to acid damage, all but 2 epics (3 if you count the optional in the deeps) have enemies that will take acid damage, vale quests, the U10 pack, Shavarath quests and the SubT all have enemies that take acid damage.

Because it wont hurt a pit fiend?

If all you care about is being at cap, then yes - an assortment of crafted weapons specific to enemies that you are fighting would work out better. But by the same rational, a eSOS/SOS/eXuum/lit II is much better.

Yes, against anything that isn;t electrically resistant/immune, a lit II is a far superior weapon to a minII

yes. guess what the only enemies you use min IIs on are? hard/elite pit fiends, and eLailat.
anything else, lit II is vastly ahead (well, only 3 or so dmg/swing vs. normal pit fiends).

comparing acquirability of a crafted weapon to eSOS and eXuum is ludicrous. in a ~3 weeks i got level 38 crafting, without buying anything. not to mention i can now churn +4 holy of LOB or +4 holy of COB far faster than i could ever craft a min II. (though min II might outdps a +4 holy CI of COB a little). I can also toss some things onto blunt weapons for comparatively tiny input.

anyway, make a lit II, for dr breakers you have cannith crafting

DrNuegebauer
07-04-2011, 10:35 PM
in a ~3 weeks i got level 38 crafting, without buying anything. n

Don't be put off Cannith crafting by this statement!

It takes 2 hours to be able to craft DR breakers.

I didn't buy anything, just waited a while, then gathered all my greater essences together onto one toon and it took all of 2 hours to hit level 30.
The hardest part of cannith crafting is breaking down greaters....

stille_nacht
07-04-2011, 10:47 PM
Don't be put off Cannith crafting by this statement!

It takes 2 hours to be able to craft DR breakers.

I didn't buy anything, just waited a while, then gathered all my greater essences together onto one toon and it took all of 2 hours to hit level 30.
The hardest part of cannith crafting is breaking down greaters....

oh, i included essence gathering time (which is basically no work for me, just tele there with scroll or spell and break down, go back to raiding). yeah, i waited 3 weeks, then took my essences and used them all

Duke-H-
07-05-2011, 05:40 AM
Remove all acid damage, its not relevant.Because why? VoD/ToD/ eChrono & eDA all have mobs that are not immune to acid damage, all but 2 epics (3 if you count the optional in the deeps) have enemies that will take acid damage, vale quests, the U10 pack, Shavarath quests and the SubT all have enemies that take acid damage.

Because it wont hurt a pit fiend?

If all you care about is being at cap, then yes - an assortment of crafted weapons specific to enemies that you are fighting would work out better. But by the same rational, a eSOS/SOS/eXuum/lit II is much better.

Yes, against anything that isn;t electrically resistant/immune, a lit II is a far superior weapon to a minII

Thats the point, acid damage is not relevant because versus the majority of the enemies it works against you are better off with a LitII anyway. The expense of a MinII is huge compared to cannith crafting (one time cost).
There is no longer any reason to craft a MinII except perhaps for niche builds without IC or as a luxury item to reduce inventory clutter.

I really do think crafting a minII in the current situation is a waste of larges. Craft something else, LitII, TripPos, HP/SP items.

TEcarson
07-06-2011, 07:16 PM
oh, i included essence gathering time (which is basically no work for me, just tele there with scroll or spell and break down, go back to raiding). yeah, i waited 3 weeks, then took my essences and used them all

So I should be in good shape...I have not sold/traded any of my greaters. Have well over 1,000 now.

Might give this a shot and make some goodies for my wife and I. :D

lugoman
07-06-2011, 09:23 PM
Where are people finding all these silver great axes? I just see 1 on cannith ah and it has no buy out.

risinginferno
07-07-2011, 02:20 AM
Well I made both a +4 holy silver greataxe of lawful outsider bane and a +4 holy cold iron greataxe of chaotic outsider bane today. The leveling from 1 - 35 in arcane and divine wasn't that bad. I currently have a tier 2 greataxe that will become a lit2 once I can find 5 scales.

Splotto
07-07-2011, 05:27 AM
Where are people finding all these silver great axes? I just see 1 on cannith ah and it has no buy out.

Well, many of them did get soaked up once the crafting system came online. I had a few spread over a couple of my toons. Just check the AH now and then and also keep an eye out for them when running the lower level quests.

sirgog
07-07-2011, 06:34 AM
Where are people finding all these silver great axes? I just see 1 on cannith ah and it has no buy out.

Keep looking. On Khyber they trade for around 0.5-0.75 large scales.

Kmnh
07-07-2011, 06:44 AM
litII, and I think falchion is better. On normal raids the litII is tbetter than minII, and you can use a crafted beater on elite raids

Kaisheng21
04-17-2017, 04:10 AM
Does any of this still apply?

C-Dog
04-17-2017, 05:11 AM
July of '11?! Holy Necro, batman!


Does any of this still apply?

Well, certainly not the "It's easy to..." parts. Cannith Crafting is ENTIRELY changed, and any similarities from then to now are coincidental. Kinda like asking about a 2017 Ford Mustang based on an article about how the '64 model was. ;)

Any parts about "what makes a good weapon?" should still apply.

Without (re)reading them, here are some threads I found save-worthy based on the current system; you should find some good info here:

o Basic Weapons to Craft: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482912-Weapon-Recipes-redux?p=5925372&viewfull=1#post5925372

o Basic Set of Crafted Weapons https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482912-Weapon-Recipes-redux?p=5925371&viewfull=1#post5925371

o Crafting Starting Gear??? https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/480741-An-experiment-in-Crafting?p=5895329&viewfull=1#post5895329

o CC Weapons https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484020-CC-weapons-for-flavor-builds

o What elements to add to weapons? https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482180-Which-eleent-type-is-best-for-a-heroic-TOEE-weapon?p=5915169&viewfull=1#post5915169

o What to craft for lowbies? https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/482764-returning-player-what-to-c-craft-for-lowbies?p=5923088&viewfull=1#post5923088