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Ngha
06-29-2011, 11:45 PM
So, today I was playing on my lowbie TWF Barb, when the though occurred to me, "I bet I can mix the best of both TWF and THF." How wrong was I, I'll let you guys figure it out.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Half-Orc Male
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 446
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 6
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 20 30
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 18 22
Intelligence 6 8
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 0
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 4 6
Diplomacy -2 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1
Heal -1 0
Hide -1 0
Intimidate 2 26
Jump 5 12
Listen -1 0
Move Silently -1 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -2 -1
Search -2 -1
Spot -1 0
Swim 5 10
Tumble 1 10
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Barbarian)

Level 5 (Barbarian)

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 7 (Barbarian)

Level 8 (Barbarian)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 13 (Barbarian)

Level 14 (Barbarian)

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 16 (Barbarian)

Level 17 (Barbarian)

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Booost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV



Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

Horkrux
06-29-2011, 11:54 PM
Honestly i dont think a sword and board barbarian is effective/efficiant. how ever it is a game and it is meant to be played to have fun.

Okay so if you are intent on a S&B barbarian i would go with the 18/2 barb fighter. 12 barb is really not all that great and 8 fighter doesnt give much over 6 fighter.

18/2 would be your best bet to make a sword and board fighter. just realize that your ac will not be high enough to be effective on hard and elite raids for sure and probably not even on normal.

edit: and usually people who go sword and board tank and any extra hp is always welcomed. in ToD one fail of a disentigrate and you have to be able to survive. 500+ hp is minimum. with out toughness you will be low hp for barb tank

Ngha
06-29-2011, 11:58 PM
18/2 would be your best bet to make a sword and board fighter. just realize that your ac will not be high enough to be effective on hard and elite raids for sure and probably not even on normal.

Well, I kinda didn't even pay attention to AC when I was thinking it up, just DR, HP, and threat generation.

The 25% haste boost (at fighter level 8) should bring me up (for 20 seconds) to match other DPSers (Kind of like pure fighters do already) but I'll be raging etc.

Anyone got the numbers on this? Mighty Rage + 25% haste boost for 20 seconds + Rage(pot/spell) + Haste (Spell) + (etc)... to see where I'd stack up? *EDIT* against other threat tank types

Horkrux
06-30-2011, 12:08 AM
Do you know what you're Dr will be? What about hp? your a barb so you can get away with out toughness but having toughness will significantly increase your hp and tanking ability.

Yes at fighter level 8 you will have 4 and with enhancements/gear 6 maybe 7 20 second 25 percent haste boosts. Here is what i think is wrong with that.

First) your built for some dps, I.e power attack/barbarian up to level 12. how ever you are not fully built to be all the dps potential a barb could be. so it puts you behind a pure fighter/pure barb /18/2 barb fighter. So if they are in the group with out intimidation you arent going to gain aggro.

Second) If you are in a group with a tank build that splashes either 6 palidan (incite boost) or maxes intim you wont gain aggro and you will be a weak dps splot in the party. some people may not want you in the party.

Sorry to say but i think at level 20 with the feats you are taking and at any of those splits not only will you be a so-so dps at best but you most likely wont be able to hold aggro anyways.

Viisari
06-30-2011, 12:31 AM
*EDIT* And any suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

Yes, don't do it and go THF, there's no point in playing a barb if you're using a shield. And no, haste boost won't put you anywhere near the dps other melees are generating, a well built melee wf fvs will do more dps than you with just his sword.

andbr22
06-30-2011, 12:36 AM
Maybe go "normal" barbarian splash route (18 Barb/2 fig)
Go Dwarf and fight with Gaxes (exchange for DAxe + shield only while "alone stage" of Hortoh tanking).

For sure would drop improved shield bash for Improved critical.
I am not sure if shield mastery is worth. Especially since I don't see many oportunieties to use them effectivly (Barbs have high DPS, but the highest DPS are Fighters (and Rogs)), and if you will keep agro in S&B "stance" then your team will probably have troubles (something like 3 rounder part 4 Shroud)...

Ngha
06-30-2011, 01:01 AM
This is what I got so far:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 436
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 6
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 16 20
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 8 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 11
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 3 5
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate 3 26
Jump 4 12
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot 1 10
Swim 4 9
Tumble 2 2
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Barbarian)

Level 5 (Barbarian)

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 7 (Barbarian)

Level 8 (Barbarian)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery

Level 13 (Barbarian)

Level 14 (Barbarian)

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 16 (Barbarian)

Level 17 (Barbarian)

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Slicing Blow

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Sap
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Exttend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV


Thoughts?

Ngha
06-30-2011, 01:14 AM
OP edited and updated.

Ngha
06-30-2011, 01:17 AM
Do you know what you're Dr will be? What about hp?

DR Looks like its going to be 25% + ~10 area depending on current gearset/buffs

HP Looks like its going to be in the ~700 Neighborhood when raged.

unbongwah
06-30-2011, 09:40 AM
Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?
Other than hitting Delete? :p

Without knowing what your goals are, it's tough to offer advice. I've tried coming up with barb / ftr tanks (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3125966) before, with mixed results at best. I've also trying coming up with a mostly-barb shield tank who uses the shield feats for dmg mitigation, not AC:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Female
(2 Fighter \ 18 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 398
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 8
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 20 30
Dexterity 12 14
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 8 10
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II

Asketes
06-30-2011, 09:43 AM
Thoughts/suggestions to improve on this S&B Barbarian?

The only honest solution I can give you is to trade your s/b for a greataxe.

I mean that nicely and not in a trolling/harassing manner.

With a s/b barb you will ALWAYS have sub-par, way below AA, DPS and no worthwhile AC once you get to gianthold and beyond.

elraido
06-30-2011, 10:49 AM
The only honest solution I can give you is to trade your s/b for a greataxe.

I mean that nicely and not in a trolling/harassing manner.

With a s/b barb you will ALWAYS have sub-par, way below AA, DPS and no worthwhile AC once you get to gianthold and beyond.

I don't think he is aiming for AC. I think he is aiming at DR. With shield mastery,and a tower shield...he would be adding 20% DR to a barbs already half way decent DR. Now that I think about it, isn't there improved shield mastery for a total of 25%?

Now that I think about it even more....new brigadine plate for 20% neg absorbstion, craft gs items for all the elementals % reduction....then healing amp all the way up to go along with vamperism items. I think I might need to play with this idea.

Milfeulle
06-30-2011, 11:07 AM
I don't think he is aiming for AC. I think he is aiming at DR. With shield mastery,and a tower shield...he would be adding 20% DR to a barbs already half way decent DR.

Barb with a sheild? Hmm...

EustaceTrevelyan
06-30-2011, 11:23 AM
You'd be better off going with s-b b-sword/THF paladin, for the intim/hate bonuses, which is what i'm trying. Only level 7, so have no idea how things are going to go. But you can't just s-b, you have to swing that big piece of metal and then boost intim with sheild, alternating to keep dps threat and shield intim. It's a button mash fest, and might not even be all that awesome compared to say 6 pally 14 fighter, but we'll see.

Or maybe i'm wrong and you WOULDN"T be better off, lol. (this is my opinion and may have no actual resemblance to reality)

kernal42
06-30-2011, 11:34 AM
The 20% damage reduction from holding a shield is not enough. Most heals are masses, and these are limited by the weakest in the group; not the 700 hp DR'd barb. You won't have enough dps to hold aggro, so it will be difficult for you to become the limiting factor in heals. Even when you are, you're still requiring 75% as many heals as you would without the shield, while at the same time taking 20-40% longer to kill everything because of the reduced dps.

Despite the reduced incoming damage you will experience, your runs will tend to be *more* resource-intensive just because enemies stay alive longer. Note, also, that the most dangerous enemy attacks (spells) are not affected by the damage reduction. Note also that the extra DR you get from blocking (which is great) reduces your dps to 0.

-Kernal

Kinerd
06-30-2011, 03:01 PM
Well, I kinda didn't even pay attention to AC when I was thinking it up, just DR, HP, and threat generation.

The 25% haste boost (at fighter level 8) should bring me up (for 20 seconds) to match other DPSers (Kind of like pure fighters do already) but I'll be raging etc.

Anyone got the numbers on this? Mighty Rage + 25% haste boost for 20 seconds + Rage(pot/spell) + Haste (Spell) + (etc)... to see where I'd stack up? *EDIT* against other threat tank typesThe trouble is that to calculate DPS you absolutely need to know attacks per second, which Vanshilar measured for THF, THF twitch, TWF, and monk unarmed, but not s&b.

I just ran a quick comparison against 12/8 DPS (THF/TWF) builds, and they were a little lower than pure fighters and barbs. It stands to reason that s&b would be a lot worse. I don't think anyone's tested the numerical benefits of intimidating with a shield, but from the times I've played with it the duration of the hate boost is so small that I can't imagine you keeping pace with it.

Ngha
06-30-2011, 05:02 PM
Hmm, very interesting information, I suppose somehow I'll have to find out how to increase my threat and DPS.

Maybe theoretically I wouldn't be able to hold aggro, but realistically I could hold aggro in a raid that doesn't have a max geared tank?

How would I increase my threat?

How about DPS with a shield?

*EDIT*Also I'm not concentrating on AC at all, simply DR. Secondary to that I'm concentrating on Threat generation, and Thirdly concentrating on DPS. To me its the only way to give this kind of a build a shot. Also I decid3ed to swap out Bswords for Daxes for those evil Fortified enemies (How did they get a minos anyways?)

Ngha
06-30-2011, 05:05 PM
Oh yeah, why does everyone use Stunning blow instead of Sap in their builds?

*EDIT* Also unfortunately I am still F2P. So I can't use HOrcs, thanks for the build suggestion though.

kernal42
06-30-2011, 05:10 PM
Oh yeah, why does everyone use Stunning blow instead of Sap in their builds?

Hitting a stunned enemy does 50% extra damage. Hitting a sapped enemy breaks the sap so they start hitting back again.

Re: Holding aggro.
If you're not holding aggro, then having a shield to reduce (the zero) incoming damage doesn't matter.

Re: S&B dps.
DPS with one hand is necessarily less than dps with two hands. You simply have more at your disposal to hurt the enemy with if you're not holding a shield.

Re: BS vs DA.
The two behave identically against 100% fort enemies; Bastard Sword is slightly better against enemies with < 100% fortification (due to seeker bonuses), while DAxe is always better in the hands of a dwarf (due to racial bonuses). Both grant glancing blows, if you are S&B. [Note: THF also grants glancing blows, but does more damage on every hit].

Cheers,
Kernal

Ngha
06-30-2011, 05:24 PM
Hitting a Saped enemy also puts their aggro on you?

People besides main tank do get hit.

True, I'm hoping that the thf glancing blows combines with a one shield bash per chain brings it up a little

I thought daxe was 1d12 for some reason, I guess I'm going to go see fred today.

Really though, how to raise the threat/dps?



Also, Thanks for the people who actually attempt to help with this build instead of just say things along the lines of: "sucks, don't do that, delete"

kernal42
06-30-2011, 05:39 PM
Hitting a Saped enemy also puts their aggro on you?
Not necessarily, but they'll attack somebody because they're no longer sapped.



People besides main tank do get hit.

Sure, but much less than the main tank does (in content that you care about their being a "main tank", at least). And in this content, the rate of AoE heals is unlikely to be determined by the high-hp barbarian. Just because you need less healing doesn't mean the healers save any sp.


True, I'm hoping that the thf glancing blows combines with a one shield bash per chain brings it up a little

It will - but only a little. Shield bashes are wimpy, especially because most good shields don't break DR.



I thought daxe was 1d12 for some reason, I guess I'm going to go see fred today.

DAxe and BS are close enough that you only need one, and it doesn't really matter which one.



Really though, how to raise the threat/dps?


The crux of the issue is that the best end-game gear for (nearly) any melee character are the epic gloves/bracers of the claw set; these provide great healing amplification, +4 damage per hit, and +20% threat (plus some stat bonuses). Nearly every well-geared melee will have these equipped. This means not only do you need to provide more threat than 100% of their dps; you need to generate more threat than 120% of their dps. This is hard to do, especially when your dps is only 80% of theirs (made up number!).

You can get, from gear, +10%, +15%, and +20% threat modifiers.
If you're horc or WF, you can get a racial 10-20% threat increase.
You can get some temporary threat increases from intimidation; I'm not sure how effective/reliable this is.

-Kernal

Ngha
06-30-2011, 05:49 PM
Also Defender of Syberis gives me some threat generation

also....

15.40(base greensteel bastard) vs 17.05 (base greensteel greatsword) isn't much dps difference. Why does everyone thinnk its going to be so much less?

Asketes
06-30-2011, 06:06 PM
Just saying, with the current game mechanics I take a barb in my party for sheer hp and dps.

fighter/pally can net similar/better DR (+AC) with specific PRE.


I'm not saying it's not viable or a bad idea; i'm just saying that for how the game currently works it seems like a waste (to me, not to the OP).

the idea is really neat though, i like the philosophy behind it.

kernal42
06-30-2011, 06:09 PM
Also Defender of Syberis gives me some threat generation

FBIII (or Kensei III) both also give significant dps increases, that you need to overcome via threat instead of dps. Also, adding dps is more effective than adding threat, because more dps means things die feaster; more threat does not.


15.40(base greensteel bastard) vs 17.05 (base greensteel greatsword) isn't much dps difference. Why does everyone thinnk its going to be so much less?

Because two handed weapons add 1.5x strength instead of 1x strength. Greatsword is also a bad comparison; falchion is better because of the increased crit profile (which is roughly equivalent to +5-10% dps). Epic Sword of Shadow, naturally, is even better. Note that there aren't many good BS/DA options.

-Kernal

stupid123
06-30-2011, 10:20 PM
Seems pretty fail. But as long as you have fun.

unbongwah
06-30-2011, 11:44 PM
Oh yeah, why does everyone use Stunning blow instead of Sap in their builds?
The good thing about Sap is it has no save and lasts 18 secs which is longer than the cooldown, so in theory you can keep an enemy Sapped indefinitely; the bad thing about it is it breaks as soon as you hit a Sapped enemy (like Fascinate). So it's tricky to use effectively, especially as a THF build because you have to worry about glancing blows accidentally proccing on your Sapped target. Stunning Blow has a Fortitude save, but if it works the target is helpless for 6 secs. and takes +50% dmg while helpless.

If you have enough feats to spare to take both and can employ Sap effectively (e.g., to keep one target out of commission while attacking another), feel free to take it; but if it comes down to Sap or Stunning Blow, I always go for SB.

Ngha
07-01-2011, 05:45 AM
If you have enough feats to spare to take both and can employ Sap effectively (e.g., to keep one target out of commission while attacking another), feel free to take it; but if it comes down to Sap or Stunning Blow, I always go for SB.

As much as we clash on my build ideas, I have learned to respect what you say, simply because many times you are correct, however I'm not sure my theoretical STR max is as high as others who may be using the same feat, and I plan to run epics and TR this guy, so what do you think?

Ngha
07-01-2011, 06:00 AM
Also though about swapping slicing blow for quick draw to reduce the amount of time it takes for my haste boost to go off, since I hate stopping in combat for a whole second just to attack faster.

Thoughts?

Viisari
07-01-2011, 06:21 AM
The crux of the issue is that the best end-game gear for (nearly) any melee character are the epic gloves/bracers of the claw set; these provide great healing amplification, +4 damage per hit, and +20% threat (plus some stat bonuses). Nearly every well-geared melee will have these equipped. This means not only do you need to provide more threat than 100% of their dps; you need to generate more threat than 120% of their dps. This is hard to do, especially when your dps is only 80% of theirs (made up number!).

You can get, from gear, +10%, +15%, and +20% threat modifiers.
If you're horc or WF, you can get a racial 10-20% threat increase.
You can get some temporary threat increases from intimidation; I'm not sure how effective/reliable this is.

-Kernal

Any properly geared melee with eSoS or dual kopesh will probably do over twice as much damage as OP's build does. There's absolutely no chance it'd hold aggro from anyone but gimps.

krogyy
07-01-2011, 06:28 AM
i was also considering a S&B barb and i actually think it may be viable despite what people says but i think the 12/8 split is not the way to do it.

i was planning on a WF 18 barb/2 Ftr. main reason is DoD. with shield mastery it is a really nice combo and greatly reduces incoming damage.

by my approximative calculations such a build using a min II bastard sword can reach around 330 dps vs 0% fort, 280 dps vs 50% fort. so with 60% hate bonus (20% two-set levik, 15% ToD set, 25% WF bonus) it reaches 520 and 440 tps respectively. should be enough to tank effectively provided max dps melees don't wear hate gear or learn to use bluff/diplo.

Truga
07-01-2011, 06:30 AM
You can get some temporary threat increases from intimidation; I'm not sure how effective/reliable this is.

AFAIK, hitting intimidate while holding a shield gives you double threat for 12 seconds, on a 15 second timer.

kernal42
07-01-2011, 11:34 AM
i was also considering a S&B barb and i actually think it may be viable despite what people says but i think the 12/8 split is not the way to do it.

i was planning on a WF 18 barb/2 Ftr. main reason is DoD. with shield mastery it is a really nice combo and greatly reduces incoming damage.

by my approximative calculations such a build using a min II bastard sword can reach around 330 dps vs 0% fort, 280 dps vs 50% fort. so with 60% hate bonus (20% two-set levik, 15% ToD set, 25% WF bonus) it reaches 520 and 440 tps respectively. should be enough to tank effectively provided max dps melees don't wear hate gear or learn to use bluff/diplo.

Not true. My ranger does about 440 dps vs 50% fort. In order for you to hold aggro, I'd have to remove the Claw set and not use haste boosts.

If your tank requires you to output less than your maximum dps, then it is a poor tank.

-Kernal

Valindria
07-01-2011, 12:18 PM
With the changes to intimidate and with +threat gear + new armor with chance for double threat slotted, I think you could make it work. The following can use THF in pure dps mode as well as S&B as needed. The shield bash can be swapped for DA or BS if you feel the -4 to hit is too much to handle. As far as I know you still get GB with DA/BS without the skill. Or switch to Dwarf and drop Shield bash for bonus with GA/DA.

Higher CHA than normal barbs as Intimidate is a goal. I didn't mess with enhancements but human allows a little healing amp as well. You'll have barb passive DR, +25% DR from towershield, and could get 5 clickes of barb 15dr if you wanted to spend the AP.



Roughly:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

SnB Barb
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 358
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 5
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 25
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 -1
Bluff 2 3
Concentration 3 4
Diplomacy 2 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 3
Heal -1 -1
Hide -1 -1
Intimidate 6 26
Jump 4 7
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently -1 -1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1
Search -1 -1
Spot -1 -1
Swim 4 7
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 4 (Barbarian)


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Barbarian)


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 16 (Barbarian)


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash

Ngha
07-01-2011, 12:28 PM
With the changes to intimidate and with +threat gear + new armor with chance for double threat slotted, I think you could make it work. The following can use THF in pure dps mode as well as S&B as needed. The shield bash can be swapped for DA or BS if you feel the -4 to hit is too much to handle. As far as I know you still get GB with DA/BS without the skill. Or switch to Dwarf and drop Shield bash for bonus with GA/DA.

Higher CHA than normal barbs as Intimidate is a goal. I didn't mess with enhancements but human allows a little healing amp as well. You'll have barb passive DR, +25% DR from towershield, and could get 5 clickes of barb 15dr if you wanted to spend the AP.

If I used a dwarf I'd just drop slicing blow, and swap out EWP for quick draw or something.


I don't really want to use intim more than necessary, its basically just for those times when everything gets pulled away at once.

Feithlin
07-01-2011, 12:38 PM
i was also considering a S&B barb and i actually think it may be viable despite what people says but i think the 12/8 split is not the way to do it.

i was planning on a WF 18 barb/2 Ftr. main reason is DoD. with shield mastery it is a really nice combo and greatly reduces incoming damage.

by my approximative calculations such a build using a min II bastard sword can reach around 330 dps vs 0% fort, 280 dps vs 50% fort. so with 60% hate bonus (20% two-set levik, 15% ToD set, 25% WF bonus) it reaches 520 and 440 tps respectively. should be enough to tank effectively provided max dps melees don't wear hate gear or learn to use bluff/diplo.

Try to include a meaningful intimidate in your build. With this, you could add 80% incite (100% during 12 sec. every 15 sec. when wearing a shield), for a total of 140%. This would bring your theorical tps to 792 / 672, which should be enough (at least for melees, because the problem tends to come from casters now).
Intimidate is a necessary tool to successfully maintain aggro with a S&B imo.

Dilbon
07-01-2011, 12:41 PM
If you can fit three Deneith dragonmarks somewhere, you can get the epic Chimera's Fang which in the future will be a +10 weapon and it will also give +10 to shield bashes.

But anyway, the only thing S&B with a bastard sword doesn't have compared to THF is +5 to power attack damage. Is that such a huge dps loss, especially with shield bashes?

Ngha
07-01-2011, 12:49 PM
If you can fit three Deneith dragonmarks somewhere, you can get the epic Chimera's Fang which in the future will be a +10 weapon and it will also give +10 to shield bashes.

But anyway, the only thing S&B with a bastard sword doesn't have compared to THF is +5 to power attack damage. Is that such a huge dps loss, especially with shield bashes?

Power attack stacks on shield bashes, including improved shield bash, tested already. With the barbarian power attack enhancements its bring it up even higher.

Dilbon
07-01-2011, 01:15 PM
Power attack stacks on shield bashes, including improved shield bash, tested already. With the barbarian power attack enhancements its bring it up even higher.

Yes, but I meant that bastard sword doesn't get double bonus like two-handed weapons.

So S&B you get:

weapon + glancing blows + 5 power attack
shield bash + 5 power attack (20% of the time)

THF:

weapon + glancing blows + 10 power attack

kernal42
07-01-2011, 01:53 PM
Yes, but I meant that bastard sword doesn't get double bonus like two-handed weapons.

So S&B you get:

weapon + glancing blows + 8 power attack + str bonus
shield bash + 8 power attack +str bonus/2(20% of the time)

THF:

weapon + glancing blows + 16 power attack + str bonus *1.5

Don't forget str bonus. For 50 str character (low for a barb), that's a difference of 10 damage a swing (multiplied on crits); about 5 on glancing blows.

-Kernal

Ngha
07-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Also, I've been thinking (oh no) that a S&B can theoretically get more threat than a THF (WHAT?!)

Okay bear with me

THF (without racial enhancements of sorts) gets their weapon damage +50% and whatever prefixes/suffixes are on it, okay, plus glancing blows, that + 50% is alot, plus double PA.

However. S&B gets normal damage, prefix/suffixes, glancing blows, BUT, also gets 20% offhand strike with shield damages, +5 PA and it also ups with...let me just put the numbers down for some...common greensteel weapons and a prime shield.

GS THF: (15.5[[GSGS]]*1.50[[THF 50%]])+14[[min/lit II]]+10[[PA]]+25[[conservative Str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 79.25 = 396.25 against 100% fort for one full attack chain (simply weapon damage no modifiers)

S&B: (8.5[[+5TS]]+3.5[[spikes]]+3.5[[bashing]]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]]) = 52.5
-----14[[GSBS]]+14[[min/lit II]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5

Okay so its 396.25 for THF 377.5 for S&B, now, lets assume they both get their ... 30% threat gear etc.

now its 475.5 vs 453

okay now lets assume its even with VIP players, THF get an extra 20% or so threat through enhancements which brings it up to 570.6, now S&B get the stalwart defender I (in my build) which gives 25% which brings it up to 566.25, if you took SDII it would be 602.49, and SDIII would be 679.5

now then with the numbers out:

570.6 VS 566.25 - Not bad, with a good intim, you got the threat almost all the time, and intim grabs aggro from casters.

570.6 VS 602.49 - add intim and you don't lose aggro to melees, ever.

570.6 VS 679.5 - S&B gets mroe threat even without Intim, intim is really just used for when the casters decide to drop all their SP at once now.




Or am I just horribly wrong?

*EDIT* I may have misplaced the 1.5* bonus for THF..., even if I did, the results are near enough that you guys should get the point.

Scraap
07-01-2011, 02:14 PM
Don't forget str bonus. For 50 str character (low for a barb), that's a difference of 10 damage a swing (multiplied on crits); about 5 on glancing blows.

-Kernal

not quite. Been toying with an S&B WF fighter off and on since that update:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/281/newbitmapimagejde.png

Full tohit and damage for both, albiet proccing at 20%, so ends up being 1.2 instead of 1.5 (Yes, I know it's worse than your calc, but in the interests of maintaining accuracy, figured the observation should be noted.)

Ngha
07-01-2011, 02:28 PM
anyone look over my math yet?

kernal42
07-01-2011, 02:31 PM
not quite. Been toying with an S&B WF fighter off and on since that update:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/281/newbitmapimagejde.png

Full tohit and damage for both, albiet proccing at 20%, so ends up being 1.2 instead of 1.5 (Yes, I know it's worse than your calc, but in the interests of maintaining accuracy, figured the observation should be noted.)

While your screenshot is not proof (+7 damage is possible with +2 weapon, +5 PA, and 10 str), I'll take your word for it. It is interesting that shield gets full str bonus.

In the interest of completeness, I'd want to write down the full str-scaling; however I don't know enough about glancing blows to do so exactly.

I suspect it's something around:
THF: 2.25 * str per swing
S&B: 1.7*str per swing

-Kernal

Ngha
07-01-2011, 02:47 PM
I never thought this thread would last this long and get as serious as to have OTHER people trying to do the maths...

woot.

Scraap
07-01-2011, 02:57 PM
While your screenshot is not proof (+7 damage is possible with +2 weapon, +5 PA, and 10 str), I'll take your word for it. It is interesting that shield gets full str bonus.

In the interest of completeness, I'd want to write down the full str-scaling; however I don't know enough about glancing blows to do so exactly.

I suspect it's something around:
THF: 2.25 * str per swing
S&B: 1.7*str per swing

-Kernal

lesee... so far, 20 base, no PA, +2 weapon and shield.
THF1+10% (from base 20%), THF2+10%, for a 40% verrified amp there. Greater will add an extra 10%.
It should be noted that not all swings proc a glancing blow though. (Forget the exact progression... lil help?)

Non STR wise, it's 3% per step for weapon effects from feats, and 2% per step (3 steps) from racial enhancements.

Kensi would add additional damage, but, like the op, the notion on this particular experiment was seeing the viability of throwing in dr% and dr/adamantine from 1-20, so went with SD and the DR feats.

kernal42
07-01-2011, 04:54 PM
lesee... so far, 20 base, no PA, +2 weapon and shield.
THF1+10% (from base 20%), THF2+10%, for a 40% verrified amp there. Greater will add an extra 10%.
It should be noted that not all swings proc a glancing blow though. (Forget the exact progression... lil help?)

Non STR wise, it's 3% per step for weapon effects from feats, and 2% per step (3 steps) from racial enhancements.

Kensi would add additional damage, but, like the op, the notion on this particular experiment was seeing the viability of throwing in dr% and dr/adamantine from 1-20, so went with SD and the DR feats.

I just looked this up for another thread, so I'll answer here.
In general, you get glancing blows on first and fourth animations.
With GTWF, you also get a glancing blow on the third animation (for 50% of base weapon damage).

So strength scaling for GTHF against 100% fort:
1.5 (base) + 0.75*0.5*1.5 (glancing) = 2.34
Against 0% fort using SoS: 3.29

Strength scaling for S&B with GTHF against 100% fort:
1.0 (base) + 0.75*0.5*1.0 (glancing) + 0.2 (shield) = 1.58
Against 0% fort using BS/DA: 1.80

The difference ranges from:
0.76 * str mod per swing (100% fort).
1.49 * str mod per swing (0% fort; THF has SoS).

Part of this is just because the SoS has such a great crit profile, but nonetheless: Against a 0% fort target, a 50-str barb is doing, on average, an extra 30 damage/swing just from applying the str bonus more effectively with THF than S&B.

Cheers,
Kernal

Edit: As an aside, TWF khopesh user does damage equal to str*2 on every swing. Naturally these numbers are higher for Tempest III (2.27), Kensei fighter 20 (2.29), and FB III (2.43).

Kinerd
07-01-2011, 05:56 PM
should be enough to tank effectively provided max dps melees don't wear hate gear or learn to use bluff/diplo.That would make for some hilarious LFMs, at least. "Need DPS barb, MUST HAVE DIPLO".
But anyway, the only thing S&B with a bastard sword doesn't have compared to THF is +5 to power attack damage. Is that such a huge dps loss, especially with shield bashes?The loss of DPS prestiges is a real killer. Frenzied Berserker III is a huge increase over Frenzied Berserkers I and II. Bastard swords are also generally sub-optimal weapons, especially in the non-greensteel variety that are favored for boss fights.

It's also still an open question how S&B speed compares to THF speed.
15.5[[GSGS]]*1.50[[THF 50%]]The THF 1.5 applies to damage from Strength bonus only.

Ngha
07-01-2011, 08:43 PM
That would make for some hilarious LFMs, at least. "Need DPS barb, MUST HAVE DIPLO".The loss of DPS prestiges is a real killer. Frenzied Berserker III is a huge increase over Frenzied Berserkers I and II. Bastard swords are also generally sub-optimal weapons, especially in the non-greensteel variety that are favored for boss fights.

It's also still an open question how S&B speed compares to THF speed.The THF 1.5 applies to damage from Strength bonus only.

YEah thought I misplaced that, just didn't want to bother with it. to correct it but I guess after my nap its no biggie:

GS THF: (15.5[[GSGS]]+14[[min/lit II]]+10[[PA]]+(25[[conservative Str bonus]]*1.5[[THF str bonus]])+7[[vicious]] = 84 = 420 against 100% fort for one full attack chain (simply weapon damage no modifiers)

S&B: (8.5[[+5TS]]+3.5[[spikes]]+3.5[[bashing]]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]]) = 52.5
-----14[[GSBS]]+14[[min/lit II]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)

+ ~20% threat items

546 VS 453

546 + 25% WF

682 becomes the number to beat, as shown before SDII will give a top of 679.3, however...

HOrcs give +25% threat to all melee attacks, so if I were to switch this around a bit for a S&B...

453 becomes 566.25

SDI makes it a whopping 707.81!

682 VS 707.81.... S&B WINS!

All I would have to do to alter this build to HOrc would be drop slicing blow, and S&B becomes the new threat tank.

Ngha
07-01-2011, 10:03 PM
Okay here's the new build, with threat "out the wazoo", I also changed the OP to reflect this build.
*EDIT* math for threat gen is supplied in previous post.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Half-Orc Male
(8 Fighter / 12 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 446
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 6
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 20 30
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 18 22
Intelligence 6 8
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance -1 0
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 4 6
Diplomacy -2 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1
Heal -1 0
Hide -1 0
Intimidate 2 26
Jump 5 12
Listen -1 0
Move Silently -1 0
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -2 -1
Search -2 -1
Spot -1 0
Swim 5 10
Tumble 1 10
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting

Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 4 (Barbarian)

Level 5 (Barbarian)

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 7 (Barbarian)

Level 8 (Barbarian)

Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 13 (Barbarian)

Level 14 (Barbarian)

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 16 (Barbarian)

Level 17 (Barbarian)

Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Booost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting II
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting III
Enhancement: Orcish Brute Fighting IV
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV



Now I need your thoughts and suggestions to make this better than it is, aka pump more DPS (hence more threat) out of this build while maintaining it's comfortable threat superiority.

So what do you say?

*EDIT* I will be using haste boosts extensively, should I swap out IC: BLudgeon for quick draw to get my 1sec of attacking back per haste boost?

kernal42
07-01-2011, 11:08 PM
Your math confuses me, I think because it is incorrect, but also because you use lines like "= 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)". 65 does not equal 377.5. I think you're trying to extrapolate damage per hit into damage per attack sequence, but incorrectly; an attack sequence gets 4 attacks, not 5. Furthermore, you're ignoring glancing blows and critical hits, both of which are significant and in favor of THF.

Let's consider fighting a raid boss (50% fort, and the kind of thing you need to be able to tank) and using a +4 holy silver of EOB weapon - this is a slight step up from a MinII, and easier to make. I'll go with your assumption of a 60 sustainable str, but I'll use a falchion because it is better. Also, +6 seeker.

THF Damage:
= 2d4 + 6 (weapon) + 37 (str) + 16 (PA) = 64
[effects] = 2d6 holy + 2d6 EOB + 2d6 vicious = 21
Over 20 swings, 16 normal hits for 64+21 damage each, or 1360 damage
Over 20 swings, 3 critical hits for (64+6)*2+21 damage each, or 483 damage.
Over 20 swings, 1843 damage, or 92.15 damage per swing.

THF Glancing:
Glancing blows will do half base (32), and have a 13% chance to proc effects for 21 damage, adding 2.73 per hit. Average glancing blow damage, including missing on a 1, is 33 damage.

Average damage per swing, with a 75% chance for a glancing blow, is 111.2.

S&B Damage:
[base] = 1d10+6 (weapon) +25 (str) +8 (PA) = 44.5
[effects] = as above: 21
Over 20 swings, 18 normal hits for 44.5 + 21 damage each, or 1244.5 damage
Over 20 swings, 1 critical hit for (44.5+6)*3 + 21 damage, or 172.5 damage
Over 20 swings, 1417 damage, or 70.85 damage per swing.

S&B Glancing:
Glancing blows will do half base (22.25), and have a 13% chance to proc effects for 21 damage, adding 2.73 per hit.
Average glancing blow damage, including missing on a 1, is 23.73

S&B Shield Bash:
[base] = 1d6 +5 (shield) +25 (str) +8 (PA) = 41.5
[effects] = 1d6 (bashing) +1d6 (spikes) +2d6 (vicious) = 14
Over 20 swings, 18 normal hits for 41.5 +14 damage each, or 999 damage
Over 20 swings, 1 critical hit for (41.5+6)*2 + 14 damage, or 109 damage
Over 20 swings, 1108 damage, or 55.4 per proc.

Average damage per swing, with 75% glancing blow proc and 20% shield bash proc, is 99.73 damage.

With 20% hate items on each, and S&B with an extra 25% hate, threat per swing comes to:
THF: 133.44
S&B: 144.61

S&B is ahead slightly, but probably by enough to hold aggro.

Unfortunately, this conclusion is somewhat flawed: You see that the 12/8 S&B build can hold aggro against a 12/8 THF build, which is a bad dps build.

To drive this point home: Let's calculate what your actual threat per second is. You're generating 144.61 threat per swing and (assuming same attack rates as THF), you're getting 20 seconds of haste boost III attacks (at 122.2/min) and 10 seconds of just hasted attacks (at 99.9/min). So over one minute, you're looking at 114.8 attacks per minute which gives you [b]276.7 tps. (You'll have 191 dps).

That will not hold aggro against even poorly geared characters, while well-geared characters are looking at producing 600-700 threat per second.

-Kernal

Ngha
07-01-2011, 11:34 PM
There is something very wrong with your math, some fundamental thing that I can't quite lace my finger on but I know its there, I'll let you know later.

Ngha
07-01-2011, 11:38 PM
That will not hold aggro against even poorly geared characters, while well-geared characters are looking at producing 600-700 threat per second.

yeah this part, link me to how they got that much threat? also why mine isn't? Both maths can't be right, I even did the calc for a TWF on the other thread, my math is right, and where you're saying I'm wrong you're not providing numbers for.

*EDIT*

I mean unless you're talking about that magical fantasy land where no bosses have fort and sneak attack hits every time?

kernal42
07-01-2011, 11:59 PM
yeah this part, link me to how they got that much threat? also why mine isn't? Both maths can't be right, I even did the calc for a TWF on the other thread, my math is right, and where you're saying I'm wrong you're not providing numbers for.

*EDIT*

I mean unless you're talking about that magical fantasy land where no bosses have fort and sneak attack hits every time?

I counted 50% fort and no sneak attack.

Our numbers are obviously different because you're counting damage per attack animation while I'm counting damage per second (which, counting haste boosts etc, is the better value).

Here's a fairly recent and approximately up-to-date dps chart. The characters have excellent builds and excellent gear, of course, but in general not the best possible of either. Still, the only build there that you would hold aggro against is the TWF pure FvS. They're using better gear, of course, but not that much better.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620

-Kernal

Edit: I did try to be clear and unambiguous at every step of my calculation, to facilitate finding of errors (or verifying lack thereof).

Ngha
07-02-2011, 12:07 AM
Oh I was talking about the 600-700 TPS numbers, sorry for the confusion.

However I remember what we forgot, when it comes down to brass tacks, I'll be supreme cleaving.. alot could you add those numbers in to my DPS/TPS, as well as the intim mashing?

Also put me up against the max DPS THF and TWF builds in the 100% fort bracket, which this build is specifically for. and lets just assume equal gear to keep it simple.

Sorry about my other post but I thought you were getting confrontational instead of conversational.

kernal42
07-02-2011, 12:16 AM
Oh I was talking about the 600-700 TPS numbers, sorry for the confusion.

However I remember what we forgot, when it comes down to brass tacks, I'll be supreme cleaving.. alot could you add those numbers in to my DPS/TPS, as well as the intim mashing?

Also put me up against the max DPS THF and TWF builds in the 100% fort bracket, which this build is specifically for. and lets just assume equal gear to keep it simple.

Sorry about my other post but I thought you were getting confrontational instead of conversational.

The 600-700 TPS numbers are correct for 0% fort; probably a little high for 50% for for all but the best geared characters. Still, most of these standard dps builds with good gear hit about 500 tps against 50% fort.

IIRC, supreme cleave is a slight reduction in single-target dps, so I have not included it. AoE dps is less interesting to me because it is not applicable in the boss fights where holding aggro is most useful.

Regarding gear, I did not make this spreadsheet, and have no desire to recreate it with specific gear choices ;). The spreadsheet is public, though, so you can add to it or edit it as you desire.

Regarding fortification, I performed my calculation at 50% fort because this is the fortification of raid bosses (excluding the Abbot with 0% and Velah with 0%). What 100% fort targets is this build designed for?

Cheers,
Kernal

Feithlin
07-02-2011, 12:22 AM
YEah thought I misplaced that, just didn't want to bother with it. to correct it but I guess after my nap its no biggie:

GS THF: (15.5[[GSGS]]+14[[min/lit II]]+10[[PA]]+(25[[conservative Str bonus]]*1.5[[THF str bonus]])+7[[vicious]] = 84 = 420 against 100% fort for one full attack chain (simply weapon damage no modifiers)

S&B: (8.5[[+5TS]]+3.5[[spikes]]+3.5[[bashing]]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]]) = 52.5
-----14[[GSBS]]+14[[min/lit II]+5[[PA]]+25[[conservative str bonus]]+7[[vicious]] = 65 = 325 + 52.5[[shield procing once a chain]] = 377.5 (100% fort)

+ ~20% threat items

546 VS 453

546 + 25% WF

682 becomes the number to beat, as shown before SDII will give a top of 679.3, however...

HOrcs give +25% threat to all melee attacks, so if I were to switch this around a bit for a S&B...

453 becomes 566.25

SDI makes it a whopping 707.81!

682 VS 707.81.... S&B WINS!

All I would have to do to alter this build to HOrc would be drop slicing blow, and S&B becomes the new threat tank.

You made an error in your calculation:
If your threat generation bonus is 20% (gear) + 25% Horc + 25% SD I = 70%, then your tps will be dps * 1.7.
In your examples, S&B tps = 377 * 1.7 = 641, which is not enough.

Additionaly, you take a target with 100% fort while a 50% would probably be more advantageous to the THF.

*Edit: if you want to know your math error, you counted threat modifiers multiplicaly instead of additionaly.

Ngha
07-02-2011, 12:33 AM
IIRC, supreme cleave is a slight reduction in single-target dps, so I have not included it. AoE dps is less interesting to me because it is not applicable in the boss fights where holding aggro is most useful.
but you included it in your previous calculations with glancing blows?

Regarding fortification, I performed my calculation at 50% fort because this is the fortification of raid bosses (excluding the Abbot with 0% and Velah with 0%). What 100% fort targets is this build designed for? any number of 100% fort mobs/bosses, undead, constructs, etc.

red

Ngha
07-02-2011, 12:34 AM
*Edit: if you want to know your math error, you counted threat modifiers multiplicaly instead of additionaly.

ah thank you, I was under some kind of impression that they stacked.

kernal42
07-02-2011, 12:51 AM
Glancing blows apply to every target in your arc; this includes your main target, so glancing blows apply to single-target dps.

The only raid boss with 100% fortification is the Black Abbot, and he cannot be tanked.
(Almost?) all end-game bosses have 0% or 50% fortification.

-Kernal

Ngha
07-02-2011, 02:49 AM
It seems that TWF does in fact increase the proc rate of a shield bash.

note: I have only tried this with TWF, not ITWF or GTWF.

If a dev or someone on lammania with a TWF could possibly use fred to swap a feat for improved shield bashing really quick to confirm how many times it procs, it would be a great help.

Scraap
07-02-2011, 05:50 AM
It seems that TWF does in fact increase the proc rate of a shield bash.

note: I have only tried this with TWF, not ITWF or GTWF.

If a dev or someone on lammania with a TWF could possibly use fred to swap a feat for improved shield bashing really quick to confirm how many times it procs, it would be a great help.

Interesting... got a repeatable testcase? Might consider a reroll on that other experiment if that is in fact
a- reproducable, and
b- WAI (I level slow. It would royally horc me to find that nerfed after seeing about throwing in thf+twf+snb.)

Ngha
07-02-2011, 06:03 AM
Interesting... got a repeatable testcase? Might consider a reroll on that other experiment if that is in fact
a- reproducable, and
b- WAI (I level slow. It would royally horc me to find that nerfed after seeing about throwing in thf+twf+snb.)

I basically just leveled up as a human ranger taking toughness and improved shield bash., that way I could use the other feats for THF.

After the first few feats for tempest, meh. but it was just a test case, I'd use fighter or something instead probably

sweez
07-02-2011, 06:59 AM
new brigadine plate for 20% neg absorbstion

Or, you know, you could just clicky deathward...

Propane
07-04-2011, 10:15 PM
In regards to shields - the new crafting stuff helps here alot - you can start with a Mithral shield - strip it down and add Holy and threat incite 20% to it. Mithral breaks silver DR - so you can have a DR breaker sheild with 20% threat boost-

Myxalplyx
08-01-2011, 09:31 PM
AFAIK, hitting intimidate while holding a shield gives you double threat for 12 seconds, on a 15 second timer.

Thank you! I have been looking for the answer to this for a while. I just have not came across it from all my readings. Replying so I can find this later.

wax_on_wax_off
08-01-2011, 11:27 PM
I think this is a pretty decent idea.

Some thoughts:
1. Maximise barbarian levels (18+) for DR, HP, DPS from rage/PrE
2. Make sure you take the barbarian PrE for DPS
3. Make sure you take the full line of THF'ing feats for synergy with daxe/bastard sword and to let you swap to greataxe when not tanking.
4. Perhaps human (for extra feat) plus epic Chimeras Fang would work well (maybe fit in a dragonmark?).
5. Most importantly, realise that 99% of the time you will play it like a normal DPS barbarian and it will be only occasionally that you can try the tanking option, this is why the greataxe with THF'ing feats are so important.

Decent intimidate score + extra hate from shield + decent DPS from raging etc should let you hold aggro if comparably geared to the competition while being very survivable with all the DR.