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Luckness
06-29-2011, 08:45 AM
With the valuable feedback from the forum, I've created the Ranger 12 / Rogue 7 / Barbarian 1 build, see my post in response.

My highest level character (have not yet capped any) is a Dex-based Assassin rogue, but I am starting to dislike its dependence on sneak attack and/or crit damage to do respectable DPS contributions. In just about every other way I like the feel of playing my rogue. I figured splashing another class and going Strength-based could give the rogue reasonable DPS in every situation and a lot more when he is weakest. Without removing too much of his usefulness (traps/locks), fun factor (stealth), and high reflex save. I want a deep splash in rogue, not 1 or 2 levels, as I still want substantial sneak attack damage and a "rogueish" feel (... even if other builds have higher DPS).

To me a ranger/rogue was a good way to do all this, and I played around with these class combinations in my head:

Ranger 14/Rogue 6 (get the Cure Serious and Freedom of Movement spells and additional SP from ranger)
Ranger 12/Rogue 8 (get more reflex save, more sneak attack damage, and Imp. Uncanny Dodge)
Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Fighter 1 (drop Imp. Uncanny Dodge and 1 reflex save, gain a feat and HP and fort save)
Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1 (drop Imp. Uncanny Dodge and 1 reflex save, gain the HP, fort save, 10% movement speed, and Barbarian Rage)

Resources I Have:

32 Point Builds (... might even wait to TR my current rogue)
+2 tomes
Human/Halfling/Elf/Dwarf/Drow

Don't have: specialist or raid-level gear (do of course keep up with trap gear), Monk, HOrc, HElf, WF

Goals:

Do enough DPS to be invited back to raids and get some of that gear (potentially even epic raids)

Minimize the occurence of death while doing DPS:
- Includes having sufficient HP
- Includes having a good reflex save and Evasion
- Includes enhancements (and potentially gear)
- Includes self-healing capability (that is more cost-efficient and effective than CSW pots)

Rogue skills
- Solid UMD
- Handle the vast majority of 6-man quest traps and locks on Elite difficulty (having to rely on others in rare situations or highest-level raiding is acceptable)
- Level as the "party trap monkey" in groups
- Able to do fun things with stealth, even in high-level quests (skipping fights, running for stones)
- Uses the Assassin I prestige enhancement for another 1d6 sneak attack damage and the boost (stacks with haste boost)

Ranger flavor
- Can whip out a longbow for Manyshot fun
- Can use Ram's Might
- Uses the Tempest II prestige enhancement to get 100% chance of proccing an off-hand attack

Human pulls the build together with the extra feat, extra skills, healing amp, Human Versatility, and Human Adaptability. Here's the character generator, 32-point build.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Cheatham
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(8 Rogue \ 12 Ranger)
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 140
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 17
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26
Dexterity 12 16
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 23
Bluff -1 2
Concentration 2 25
Diplomacy 3 23
Disable Device 5 25
Haggle -1 0
Heal -1 0
Hide 5 16
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 4 8
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 5 23
Open Lock 5 17
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 25
Spot 3 23
Swim 4 8
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy Resistance Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I






Questions I Have:

(1) Will a good player with the best possible Tempest II / Assassin I mix fall noticeably behind on DPS compared to a Tempest III ranger or full lvl 20 rogue? (In a typical raid boss situation.) If so, how bad is it?

(2) Will this build meet the expectations regarding HP for melee when it gets appropriate gear?

(3) Do you know of a good guide to gear for melees? I seem to bump into far more resources on builds and a lot less on gearing those builds.

(4) The reason for taking 8 levels of rogue and not 7 is saves. Improved Uncanny Dodge adds 2 reflex save and 1 always-on save from the level itself. I assumed that this would be important for this build to get its reflex save high enough for Evasion to get a lot of mileage, in fights and when doing traps, especially with the relatively low Dex. Is this right, or is this concern negligible?

(5) Any comment on whether the third class would be better as Fighter or Barbarian?

(6) Any comment on extending ranger level to 14 (primarily for the spells Freedom of Movement and Cure Serious Wounds) and taking rogue to 6?

(7) Are there any builds that come to mind that largely accomplish my goals, by different means, which you'd like to suggest?

(8) Managing my skill points was one of the most complicated things here, have you got suggestions regarding what I've done in the build above?

(9) Anything else you want to say. :)

Thanks for your time.

FlyingTurtle
06-29-2011, 08:55 AM
Feat order seems weird... don't you want to get Tempest earlier rather than later?

Luckness
06-29-2011, 09:07 AM
I figured getting the Strength, Constitution, and Intellect numbers where I wanted them was worth delaying the prestige enhancements of Ranger, which would be taken at level 18.

Starting at 12 dex and eating a +1 dex tome at level 3 means I can't start taking Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack until level 6 at the earliest. At that point it seemed logical to put it last and get some nice feats for improving DPS while leveling (Power Attack, Khopesh proficiency, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical: Slash). Delaying Oversized Two Weapon Fighting or Improved Critical: Slash would allow me to get Tempest earlier... as would starting with 13 or more Dex.

unbongwah
06-29-2011, 10:01 AM
OTWF is unnecessary and can be dropped, letting you take D/M/SA that much sooner. I would probably drop rogue 8 and take the barb or ftr splash instead (presuming you don't unlock monk).

Rydin_Dirtay
06-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Yes Rogue 8 is not all that useful.

Consider a 1 splash of something (Monk, Fighter, Barb).

stupid123
06-29-2011, 12:43 PM
Seems pretty fail but as long as you have fun with it.

MindCake
06-29-2011, 01:50 PM
Starting at 12 dex and eating a +1 dex tome at level 3 means I can't start taking Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack until level 6 at the earliest.
Actually, if you read the tome at level 3, you can swap your level 3 feat for dodge. I did just that (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317173).

Power Attack. I think at low levels, PA + TWF to hit penalties + lack of reliable buffing (you can't expect GH till mid-teens) + lack of gear + your BAB is still low = missing a lot.

If you dropped INT by 2, you could get some more CON.
As for the skill points, try to limit the cross-class skill purchases. Since search, spot, move silently and hide are class skills for ranger too you can get these whenever. Disable Device is quite nice to have maxed at all times, so I'd make that sacrifice, but things like UMD, Open Lock and Diplomacy you can neglect on ranger levels, and then catch up on rogue levels.

I'm not sure concentration important here.

Rauven
06-29-2011, 02:14 PM
Seems pretty fail but as long as you have fun with it.

Saying it's fail without saying why it's fail is, well, more fail.


OP, consider the following feat order (requires a feat swap):

1: Toughness, Power Attack
3: Dodge
6: Mobility
9: Spring Attack
12: EWP: Khopesh
15: IC: Slash
18: OTWF (if you still want or something else)

If you drop 1 level of rogue (not a bad idea) and take 1 level of fighter for the free feat, say at level 6, you will be able to take your tempest prereqs earlier and fit in EWP: Khopesh at 9 and IC: Slash at 12. 8 levels of rogue doesn't really add very much to your build. Of course, if you TR your current rogue you can just start with dex 13 and take Dodge at level 1 instead of Power Attack and move everything else up in order.

If you don't want to Tr your current rogue and don't want to go the feat swap route to get Dodge at level 3 you could start with a lower int and raise your dex. With starting 13 dex and 11 int, eat a +1 int tome at lvl 3, you'll still have enough skill points to max dd, ol, search, spot and umd with some points into balance.

Ookami007
06-29-2011, 02:30 PM
Go with an exploiter build...


Great AC
Full Rogue Skills
Good Damage
High UMD

Bwahahaha
06-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Go with an exploiter build...


Great AC
Full Rogue Skills
Good Damage
High UMD


Yep, great fun... :)

chodelord
06-29-2011, 02:50 PM
Rogue 8 doesn't give anything important. Improved uncanny dodge isn't that hot compared to the alternatives.

1 fighter level give a feat and good enhancements 10 hp, +1 to your favorite tactics, and maybe +2 to confirm criticals

1 barb gives the awesome stacking 10% run speed, +1 power attack, and a couple of rage charges for more pew pew

1 monk gives a feat, a bunch of AC, and the best available save progression

unbongwah
06-29-2011, 02:51 PM
Go with an exploiter build...
OP already said he doesn't have monk; ergo, no Exploiter for him.

.Revenga.
06-29-2011, 04:48 PM
8 levels of rogue is not a very good split imo.

If you want a deep one, go 13 rogue. That gives you most of the important rogue stuff, 2 rogue feats, tierII pre line and good SA damage.

Leaves lots of place for a good splash to increase you base dps.

Otherwise stop at 6 lvl's of rogue

stupid123
06-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Saying it's fail without saying why it's fail is, well, more fail.


Okay, going 12 ranger seems to be a bit of a downgrade not to mention a waste of feats. You can easily go str rogue and have a better result. He said now he will finally be able to do raids(and maybe do epic ones). So my guess is that he was a fail dex/int rogue with low hp. If anything now it'll be worse 12 ranger 8 rogue is odd and there's alot better builds.

Luckness
06-29-2011, 07:33 PM
Thanks everyone for the quite valuable feedback. This is why I came to the forum! :)

To everyone who said that the 8th level of rogue wasn't worth it, I agree.

Of the options of Monk, Fighter, and Barbarian, monk has a lot to say for it, and Fighter would be good if I really needed the feat, but three things convince me of taking Barbarian over Fighter.

- 10% movement speed (awesome!)
- Rage
- Barbarian Power Attack I

I've also dropped Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, as it has been suggested to be the weakest of the bunch. I picked up the amazing (for a rogue) feat of "Past Life: Sneak of the Shadows." Yes, that means it'll be a 1st life TR of my original dex-based pure rogue (which I copied from Tihocan's "Dark Blade" path).


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Cheatham
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(1 Barbarian \ 7 Rogue \ 12 Ranger)
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 160
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 17
Will: 6

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 18 25 26
Dexterity 14 16 18
Constitution 16 18 18
Intelligence 10 12 12
Wisdom 8 10 10
Charisma 8 10 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 6 24 25
Bluff -1 0 3
Concentration 3 4 5
Diplomacy -1 0 1
Disable Device 4 24 25
Haggle -1 0 1
Heal -1 0 1
Hide 6 17 22
Intimidate -1 0 1
Jump 4 8 9
Listen -1 0 1
Move Silently 6 27 32
Open Lock 6 23 24
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 0 1 2
Search 4 24 25
Spot 3 23 24
Swim 4 8 9
Tumble 6 8 9
Use Magic Device 3 23 24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 4 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge


Level 5 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 6 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Spell (1): Camouflage
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Longstrider
Spell (1): Merfolk's Blessing
Spell (1): Ram's Might
Spell (1): Resist Energy
Spell (1): Summon Nature's Ally I
Spell (1): Tumble


Level 7 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+6)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion


Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Wild Empathy


Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Spell (2): Barkskin
Spell (2): Bear's Endurance
Spell (2): Cat's Grace
Spell (2): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (2): Hold Animal
Spell (2): Mass Camouflage
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (2): Protection From Energy
Spell (2): Snare
Spell (2): Spike Growth
Spell (2): Summon Nature's Ally II


Level 12 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Automatic) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Precise Shot


Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Neutralize Poison
Spell (3): Remove Disease
Spell (3): Summon Nature's Ally III
Spell (3): Wild Instincts


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+6)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+10)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+6)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy Resistance Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I




Things I've changed:

I got rid of Human Greater Adaptability, as the build seems tight on Action Points as it is, if I want to get very nice things like 30% healing amp and +5 human versatility. The extra build points, as well as the decision to drop some Int, have made this feasible without dropping CON. I also bumped up the DEX to 14, which gives more reflex save and other benefits (for example, improvement to DEX-based skills and attack bonus with a longbow if using Manyshot). Further, the Barbarian splash has also allowed me to take a cheaper third toughness enhancement, tied to the Barbarian class. This has netted me both HP and action points. (And I'm not sure if I spent all the action points the best way, but it looks nice to me!)

I had to think about the skill layout a lot. I couldn't put as many points in rogue skills as I was used to, playing a pure rogue, but I could hit 23 points in the skills I need maxed: DD, Search, Spot, and UMD. I also gave Balance 20 points and Open Lock 19 points, reflecting their high importance. Reflecting my wish to play a character with stealth, I put 23 points in Move Silently, with a much lower Hide score, as I can compensate with Camouflage.

At the cutting room floor? Diplomacy, which I couldn't find the points to max, and it's not worth much at high level if not maxed. Concentration, which someone rightly pointed out as questionable on this build (I had assumed its importance because of its presence in Tihocan's ranger builds). I already decided to put no points in Jump, as Ranger gives me access to the +30 jump spell, and the strength is high enough. And there are not enough points to fill out Tumble, but to put 4 points in it at first level does not hurt.

The best major alternative I can think of is using Fighter for the feat. This build has a lot of action boosts available to use in a fight. Would Quickdraw as a feat from Fighter (or some other feat...) beat the DPS from Barbarian benefits? I don't know, really.

Thank you Rauven for pointing out that I could raise Dex and lower Int while getting good skills, to Mindcake for catching the gaffe with Concentration, and to everyone who dissuaded me from taking 8 rogue in this buidl. Thanks again for the feedback on my initial build... comments on my updated concept are gratefully welcomed!

stupid123
06-29-2011, 07:51 PM
Yes, that means it'll be a 1st life TR of my original dex-based pure rogue (which I copied from Tihocan's "Dark Blade" path).


I knew he was dex....

kanbeki
06-29-2011, 08:16 PM
similar to http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3356058&postcount=1

that thread turned into a flame war though.

ragwa1
06-29-2011, 10:06 PM
With the valuable feedback from the forum, I've created the Ranger 12 / Rogue 7 / Barbarian 1 build, see my post in response.

My highest level character (have not yet capped any) is a Dex-based Assassin rogue, but I am starting to dislike its dependence on sneak attack and/or crit damage to do respectable DPS contributions. In just about every other way I like the feel of playing my rogue. I figured splashing another class and going Strength-based could give the rogue reasonable DPS in every situation and a lot more when he is weakest. Without removing too much of his usefulness (traps/locks), fun factor (stealth), and high reflex save. I want a deep splash in rogue, not 1 or 2 levels, as I still want substantial sneak attack damage and a "rogueish" feel (... even if other builds have higher DPS).

To me a ranger/rogue was a good way to do all this, and I played around with these class combinations in my head:

Ranger 14/Rogue 6 (get the Cure Serious and Freedom of Movement spells and additional SP from ranger)
Ranger 12/Rogue 8 (get more reflex save, more sneak attack damage, and Imp. Uncanny Dodge)
Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Fighter 1 (drop Imp. Uncanny Dodge and 1 reflex save, gain a feat and HP and fort save)
Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Barbarian 1 (drop Imp. Uncanny Dodge and 1 reflex save, gain the HP, fort save, 10% movement speed, and Barbarian Rage)

Resources I Have:

32 Point Builds (... might even wait to TR my current rogue)
+2 tomes
Human/Halfling/Elf/Dwarf/Drow

Don't have: specialist or raid-level gear (do of course keep up with trap gear), Monk, HOrc, HElf, WF

Goals:

Do enough DPS to be invited back to raids and get some of that gear (potentially even epic raids)

Minimize the occurence of death while doing DPS:
- Includes having sufficient HP
- Includes having a good reflex save and Evasion
- Includes enhancements (and potentially gear)
- Includes self-healing capability (that is more cost-efficient and effective than CSW pots)

Rogue skills
- Solid UMD
- Handle the vast majority of 6-man quest traps and locks on Elite difficulty (having to rely on others in rare situations or highest-level raiding is acceptable)
- Level as the "party trap monkey" in groups
- Able to do fun things with stealth, even in high-level quests (skipping fights, running for stones)
- Uses the Assassin I prestige enhancement for another 1d6 sneak attack damage and the boost (stacks with haste boost)

Ranger flavor
- Can whip out a longbow for Manyshot fun
- Can use Ram's Might
- Uses the Tempest II prestige enhancement to get 100% chance of proccing an off-hand attack

Human pulls the build together with the extra feat, extra skills, healing amp, Human Versatility, and Human Adaptability. Here's the character generator, 32-point build.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Cheatham
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(8 Rogue \ 12 Ranger)
Hit Points: 296
Spell Points: 140
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 17
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26
Dexterity 12 16
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 23
Bluff -1 2
Concentration 2 25
Diplomacy 3 23
Disable Device 5 25
Haggle -1 0
Heal -1 0
Hide 5 16
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 4 8
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 5 23
Open Lock 5 17
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 25
Spot 3 23
Swim 4 8
Tumble 5 7
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Ranger)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy Resistance Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Resistance I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I






Questions I Have:

(1) Will a good player with the best possible Tempest II / Assassin I mix fall noticeably behind on DPS compared to a Tempest III ranger or full lvl 20 rogue? (In a typical raid boss situation.) If so, how bad is it?

(2) Will this build meet the expectations regarding HP for melee when it gets appropriate gear?

(3) Do you know of a good guide to gear for melees? I seem to bump into far more resources on builds and a lot less on gearing those builds.

(4) The reason for taking 8 levels of rogue and not 7 is saves. Improved Uncanny Dodge adds 2 reflex save and 1 always-on save from the level itself. I assumed that this would be important for this build to get its reflex save high enough for Evasion to get a lot of mileage, in fights and when doing traps, especially with the relatively low Dex. Is this right, or is this concern negligible?

(5) Any comment on whether the third class would be better as Fighter or Barbarian?

(6) Any comment on extending ranger level to 14 (primarily for the spells Freedom of Movement and Cure Serious Wounds) and taking rogue to 6?

(7) Are there any builds that come to mind that largely accomplish my goals, by different means, which you'd like to suggest?

(8) Managing my skill points was one of the most complicated things here, have you got suggestions regarding what I've done in the build above?

(9) Anything else you want to say. :)

Thanks for your time.

I would suggest 12rgr/7rog/1ftr

This allows for the sneak dice of 7th lvl, and the ftr adds hp/dcs/extra feat. 8 rog isnt anything to flashy.

Rauven
06-29-2011, 11:03 PM
Okay, going 12 ranger seems to be a bit of a downgrade not to mention a waste of feats. You can easily go str rogue and have a better result. He said now he will finally be able to do raids(and maybe do epic ones). So my guess is that he was a fail dex/int rogue with low hp. If anything now it'll be worse 12 ranger 8 rogue is odd and there's alot better builds.

Not sure what you mean by "downgrade" or "waste of feats." As has been argued many times before tempest III requires 4 feats in total and you get 3 feats for free that you would have taken anyhow. If only going tempest II then it's a straight 3:3 swap. Further, 12 ranger mc's are very viable either as 12/6/2 or 12/7/1 splits and work very well with fighter, barb, rogue, paladin and monk.


I knew he was dex....


My highest level character (have not yet capped any) is a Dex-based Assassin rogue, but I am starting to dislike its dependence on sneak attack and/or crit damage to do respectable DPS contributions.

Gee, I wonder what gave it away?


Luckness, I like your new build much more. I only have 2 more suggestions. The first is more of a personal preference. I find tier 4 of skill boost to be very expensive; 4 ap for a small bonus. Human Versatility is, by definition, more versatile than basic rogue skill boost but dropping tier 4 and freeing up those 4 ap for other use is a possibility. Second, for the first several levels of your life pick up the biggest 2 hander weapon you have (hopefully a carnifex or something of the like for level 4 and up) and swing like a barbarian. Don't bother with using 2 weapons until at least tempest I. You'll get much more benefit from your str with a 2 hander during the early levels.

Good luck with it. Looks fun.

Luckness
06-30-2011, 12:38 PM
Rauven, thanks for your comments. I've got a Carnifex in the bank, and I'm sure I'd get some use out of swinging it while leveling this toon. :)

Versatility IV could be the first thing to go, but I'm not sure what I want more than it, even if it's only +1 to the boost.

Rydin_Dirtay
06-30-2011, 12:59 PM
.. comments on my updated concept are gratefully welcomed!

Now I am liking this build better. Some comments

1. consider dropping Ranger Energy Boost I. You'll get 30 point Resist anyway.
2. consider dropping Ranger Energy of the Wild I. You will have plenty of sp for your own buffs.

That will free 2 ap's right there. You could free more if you wanted to drop Human Versatility IV.

Luckness
06-30-2011, 02:25 PM
1 - I heard that the ranger boost stacks with 30 resists, and for one point that isn't bad.

2 - I agree, but I don't know where to spend that point better. It was the last point I assigned...

Rauven
06-30-2011, 02:51 PM
1 - I heard that the ranger boost stacks with 30 resists, and for one point that isn't bad.

2 - I agree, but I don't know where to spend that point better. It was the last point I assigned...

The ranger resist boost does stack with other resists.

If you dropped some combination of Human Versatility IV, Energy of the Wild and Energy Resistance Boost you'll free up to 6 ap, which could be used for Favored Resistance III (6 ap), Favored Damage IV (4 ap) or Favored Attack II (4 ap). My preference would be for Favored Resistance. Ranger Devotion is another possibility. Even if you just take RD I for 1 ap that 10% boost to healing spells will get added to your human healing amp, plus any ship buff or gear healing amp.

Just some possibilities to consider.