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View Full Version : Make soundburst on par with electric loop



Chette
06-29-2011, 02:10 AM
Soundburst is a great spell...for about 2 levels. It has a chance to cause a stun effect, which can be very effective for a low level divine that wishes to help with crowd control. The damage however, is pitiful when compared to similar arcane spells, and the fact that it can be maximized and empowered only makes this worse, as it's not the sort of spell one wants to maximize and empower, as it is only really useful for the stun.

Compare it to electric loop, the most similar spell on the arcane side. Electric loop does 1d3+3 electrical damage per 2 caster levels with a max damage of 5d3 + 15 at level 10. Soundburst on the other hand does 1d8 damage. That's it. No per caster level. So soundburst cast by a level 10 or higher divine does the exact same damage as soundburst cast by a level 3 divine.

With unscaling damage, the spell is basically only useful for the stun effect (something that electric loop also accomplishes). However, because the spell does *some* pitiful damage, it can be maximized and empowered, resulting in a short duration CC spell that costs about twice as much as any other CC spell.

To make soundburst a useful spell one of two things must happen. Either accept that it's a spell that's only useful for a few levels of CC, to be dropped for something better, and take off the damage, or at least make it so that it can't be maximized or empowered. Alternatively, and I would think optimally, scale the damage with level similar to a spell like electric loop. This is particularly important since there is no way for divines to increase their sonic damage through enhancements, the way an arcane can with electric.

BurningDownTheHouse
06-29-2011, 02:30 AM
News flash: Arcane damage spells are supposed to be more powerful than level equivalent divine damage spells.

Symar-FangofLloth
06-29-2011, 05:53 AM
I"d vote for it to be made unable to max/empower.
It's a CC spell that happens to deal damage.

Vellrad
06-29-2011, 06:04 AM
I would improve CC effect, maybe something like 1/3 seconds per level. Damage is just addition. Maybe it could be improved at lv 5 to 2d8, at lvl10 to 3d8 etc, but no more.

Gkar
06-29-2011, 06:18 AM
News flash: Arcane damage spells are supposed to be more powerful than level equivalent divine damage spells.

Only in your mind. In D&D they are equivilent.

JollySwagMan
06-29-2011, 06:19 AM
I"d vote for it to be made unable to max/empower.
It's a CC spell that happens to deal damage.

I'd go for this myself, however it would be nice for Bards if it scaled up in damage with caster levels. At least it doesn't get Extended any more..

licho
06-29-2011, 06:42 AM
One thing OP missed: Electric Loop is a two save spell, first is refles for dmg, than will for daze.
Soundburst is one save CC (fort), so it has a edge here.

The real problem with Soundburst is a short duracion of its CC. That could be scaled.

Nevertheless making it scale with dmg potencial would be nice, if not for cleric then for bards.
(something like 4d8 @ lv20. would be quite fair, still not a primary dmg spell thou)

FlyingTurtle
06-29-2011, 09:00 AM
Soundburst does damage?


/signed to take off maximize and empower on this thing, it's silly.

Missing_Minds
06-29-2011, 09:12 AM
One thing OP missed: Electric Loop is a two save spell, first is refles for dmg, than will for daze.
Soundburst is one save CC (fort), so it has a edge here.

The real problem with Soundburst is a short duracion of its CC. That could be scaled.

Nevertheless making it scale with dmg potencial would be nice, if not for cleric then for bards.
(something like 4d8 @ lv20. would be quite fair, still not a primary dmg spell thou)

SR will protect you from SB.

I don't think SR will protect you from EL.

TheDjinnFor
06-29-2011, 09:20 AM
Personally, I use Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, and Order's Wrath once I get them.

But I do like the damage of soundburst, it helps me top the killcount when running harbor quests on normal since all the weak kobolds are instakilled by 1d8 :D. So /not signed to removing the damage, and /signed to removing the ability to maximize/empower.

Tyrande
06-29-2011, 09:21 AM
IMHO, Sound Burst is a CC spell primary, it just happens to deal damage.

/vote for the stun duration to be longer, but NOT scaling the damage; and take off the maximize and empower.

Also, Sound Burst (sonic damage) cannot be saved (i.e. no reflex save) while Electric Loop (electric damage) can be resisted and needs a reflex save by pass to deal damage.

Remember, if you are buffing a spell, you are buffing the spell cast by monsters too; and a lot of divine caster monsters like to cast this spell too; and maximized and empowered from monsters? I do not think my characters want to go craft a sonic resistance/absorption item.

Its a double edge sword and a two sided coin.

Maxson
06-29-2011, 09:27 AM
SR will protect you from SB.

I don't think SR will protect you from EL.

Doesn't SB only get stopped by SR if the damage it deals is reduced to 0? I wonder if the same happens with electric loop.

Faelyndel
06-29-2011, 03:33 PM
News flash: Arcane damage spells are supposed to be more powerful than level equivalent divine damage spells.
News flash: Soundburst is also available to arcanes ;)

I happen to use Soundburst a fair amount on my bard, though not having Empower or Maximize on her I can't attest to that side of things. Considering it's pitiful damage, I assume it is intended (or at least primarily used as a result) as a CC spell rather than a damage dealing one, so I don't see the harm in removing the ability to Empower/Maximize it so that it becomes a better option without the caster having to choose between turning off their metas or "wasting" SP on the still-insignificant-after-being-increased damage.

If anything I'd say scale the duration of the stun rather than the damage.

Urjak
06-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Only in your mind. In D&D they are equivilent.

Totally wrong! Quote from D&D Dungeon Masters Guide 3.5: (page 44 in the german version):

Maximum damage for arcane spells (no idea on how to make tables in this forum ... so a bit weird layout =( ):

Grade; one target; multiple target
1 5dice -
2 10dice 5dice
3 10dice 10dice
4 15dice 10dice
5 15dice 15dice
6 20dice 15dice
7 20dice 20dice
8 25dice 20dice
9 25dice 25dice

opposed to maximum for divine spells:
1 1dice -
2 5dice 1dice
3 10dice 5dice
4 10dice 10dice
5 15dice 10dice
6 15dice 15dice
7 20dice 15dice
8 20dice 20dice
9 25dice 20dice

whereby for divine spells (not for arcane) d8 and above counts as 2 dice

so u can see arcane spells are definitely supposed to be more powerfull than divine ( level x arcane ~ level x+1 divine )

Chette
06-29-2011, 11:36 PM
so u can see arcane spells are definitely supposed to be more powerfull than divine ( level x arcane ~ level x+1 divine )

5d3+15 is a heck of a lot more than 1d8 (about 5.5 times more), not even remotely comparable to the table you listed.

Either it's a damage spell or it isn't. If it's a damage spell, up the damage, if it's not a damage spell, disable maximize and empower.

If it's not a damage spell, a few more options for level 1-3 spells would also be nice.

Bodic
06-29-2011, 11:40 PM
Soundburst is for Crowd Control not DPS
Holy Smite is your early Divine AOE DPS

BurningDownTheHouse
06-30-2011, 04:02 AM
Only in your mind. In D&D they are equivilent.

No, they are not.

In all its incarnations, D&D gave the arcane spells focus on damage and utility, while divine spells focused mostly on healing, survival and defense.

In all the cases of damage spells (outside of domain spells), the divine version is either one or two levels higher, or not as powerful.
Example: Arcanes get AOE spells that deal 1d6 damage per level on the 3rd spell level. Divines get the closest equivalent at 4rth level (and you cant really compare the alignment strike spells to a fireball). If you really want a D&D PnP divine equivalent of fireball you will have to go to the 5th level flame strike.

(This is a bit beside the point of this post, but the above makes sense from a balance stand point. The divine casters get better hp and and combat abilities than the arcane casters, so it makes sense for the arcanes to get better bang for their spells.)

So no. Sorry. It's only in your mind that they are equivalent in D&D.

BurningDownTheHouse
06-30-2011, 04:06 AM
News flash: Soundburst is also available to arcanes ;)

I happen to use Soundburst a fair amount on my bard, though not having Empower or Maximize on her I can't attest to that side of things. Considering it's pitiful damage, I assume it is intended (or at least primarily used as a result) as a CC spell rather than a damage dealing one, so I don't see the harm in removing the ability to Empower/Maximize it so that it becomes a better option without the caster having to choose between turning off their metas or "wasting" SP on the still-insignificant-after-being-increased damage.

If anything I'd say scale the duration of the stun rather than the damage.

With all due respect, bards are not real arcanes. :p

Soundburst is available to bards as well as healing spells.
It is not available as an arcane spell, wizards and sorcs can't cast it.

Rian
06-30-2011, 01:05 PM
SR will protect you from SB.

I don't think SR will protect you from EL.

Correct, however, SR is supposed to protect you from NON-DAMAGING spells
Clearly it does damage, not matter how insignifficant, it is doing damage.
So people have to make 2 rolls anyways to use it, like EL.
SB: Damaging stun spell making a SR check.
EL: Damaging stune spell NOT making a SR check.


as for the spell it self...
Turn it into an actually good stun spell so I can make a bard named BEWMBAWX! :D
http://www.downtowndeathdrop.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/boom-box.jpg

Aashrym
06-30-2011, 01:22 PM
With all due respect, bards are not real arcanes. :p

Soundburst is available to bards as well as healing spells.
It is not available as an arcane spell, wizards and sorcs can't cast it.

Bards are arcane casters. They do not cast any divine spells. They have arcane versions of divine spells.

It's an arcane spell. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

That's not the real issue I have with it tho.



@everyone in general:

After the spell pass sound burst and greater shout were given the same SP cost. Both do damage and both do a stun in the AoE. That is insanely ********.

If sound burst costs the same as another spell that does almost exactly the same thing but a lot less damage then either the effect should be changed or the cost should be changed. It's really not complicated and the difference between both spells is obvious.

As a temporary fix I would be inclined to remove the ability to maximize and empower sound burst. It's possible this has been done already but since I dropped the spell after U9 I have not checked since.

Something that makes more sense would be to drop the cost to 8 or 10 or 12 SP. Something to fit it into the cost of other sonic spells, most of which have that secondary effect. It's simply not consistent with other similar spells.

I think the Dev's were looking at it as a cleric CC spells during the spell pass and unfortunately may have missed some of the bigger picture.

Jaid314
06-30-2011, 03:08 PM
i'd be up for removing the ability to maximise and empower sound burst (note: it's also better than electric loop in that it's useful even if your party can't handle focusing their attacks on one enemy), but i'm even more up for the devs finally getting the much-requested change to be able to select what metamagics i want to apply to any given spell...

danotmano1998
06-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Soundburst was a great spell for a couple of levels. Then it's usefulness declined.

I'm all for scaling up the duration slightly based on caster level, OR the damage. Not both.

Maximize and Empower on it are indeed a joke. They really shouldn't apply to this, as nobody in their right mind is going to spend an extra 40sp to get 20 damage.
(NO, I didn't do the exact math. I'm generalizing here.)