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View Full Version : Bard DPS Warchanter TWF vs THF



Mahulk
06-28-2011, 07:34 AM
Hi everyone, I have been away from the game for a while, coming back and I see some nice changes. Some things I'm not really familiar with; mostly the new THF builds. It seems now that THF is a much more acceptable way to go when building a warchanter. Maybe it's the time away from the game, but I still have that old mentality that TWF pulls ahead by a good margin when you factor in sneak attack damage and bard song... is my feeling wrong?

My main is a dwarf warchanter similar to the well known Axesinger. Basically, a staight melee bard using dual dwarven axes. Bard 15/Rogue 3/Fighter 2. I'm struggling with the idea to switch to Greataxe, but I fear I would be losing too much damage... can you guys help me?

dkyle
06-28-2011, 08:27 AM
My Bard is basically the Axesinger, but Human w/ Khopesh instead of Dwarf w/ DAxe.

As far as personal DPS, TWF is still king for Bards, I think, at least if you don't have an Epic Sword of Shadows. I'm not sure on the numbers, though. TWF LitII Khopeshes might beat ESoS on a Bard.

THF has become more popular, I think, because the gap between THF and TWF was reduced (getting offhand attacks 80% of the time instead of 100%), and pure Bards are more desirable now that extra attack bonus actually means something in Epics. There's also the Half-Orc, which greatly benefits THF.

THF's advantage over TWF isn't personal DPS. It's that it's more amenable to playing a greater support role. TWF feats are mandatory for non-gimped TWF. The THF feats aren't nearly as important, especially if you learn to twitch. Those feats can go into better healing (Empower Healing, Maximize, Quicken)

So, THF allows for great healing, and pretty good DPS, where TWF offers great (for a Bard) DPS but is going to be pretty limited on healing. My Bard basically only scroll Heals. Her SP-heals aren't worth much of anything.

Kinerd
06-29-2011, 04:20 PM
All else being equal, you will lose DPS going from TWF Dwarven Axes to THF Greataxe (very roughly speaking, ~15%). However, without TWF you have 6 or 7 more build points to play with, which can make a considerable difference in your character's other abilities on a many-attribute build.

As an aside, I would not expect the eSoS to be superior for a bard melee build with rogue levels, even one that only used dwarven axes.

AtomicMew
06-29-2011, 04:33 PM
As an aside, I would not expect the eSoS to be superior for a bard melee build with rogue levels, even one that only used dwarven axes.

Does that come with number or just your intuition?

TheDearLeader
06-29-2011, 04:57 PM
TWF would be "Best", provided you have the Feats, and Ability Points, to sink into it making it happen.

Thing is, it's "simpler" as a 28 or 32-point build to go THF, with High Str-Con and Moderate Charisma, and use your feats for other things.

Anything that gives a straight (+Damage) Bonus that is not a correlation to your Strength score benefits TWF. This includes Bardic Music, Claw/eClaw set, Shintao Set, Divine Might, Divine Favor, Kensei/Racial Damage enhancements, etc.

While the above is true, the true issue is using limited feat space, and ability point allocation, to make TWF feasible.

Edit: The above presumption assumes that you can hit on a 2 or higher under both TWF and THF.

haclya
06-29-2011, 04:59 PM
have problems geting hits as twf bard but my one is pure.

got one thf bard and i get more hits

I think pure bard might have to slow hits even whit haste and twf.

I have oversized weapon feat to help me but it help a bit not much.

not done splash class so I do not know if that will help whit the twf.

but for pure go thf.

Nezichiend
06-29-2011, 05:02 PM
I would not trust speculations. If you are asking what does the most DPS, trust numbers.

Kinerd
06-29-2011, 05:54 PM
Does that come with number or just your intuition?Numbers, but they all depend on gear set anyway. Without a DPS prestige to multiply the eSoS' head start, with relatively low Strength, with a lot of sneak attack, and with Haste Boosts, TWF has a lot going for it.

Mahulk
06-30-2011, 07:59 AM
My focus was always damage (while providing good support for other melee). My bard is a 32-pts, +2 all tome, maxed STR, full TWF feats warchanter. My damage is really good, but since I never tried THF and that I am not really aware of the recent changes (break from update 2 until 9), I had to ask.

My gut was that TWF was still ahead. THF on the other hand really seems easier (only one weapon to find for a given set, less mats for shroud weaponry, more space in backpacks).

Thing is, I'm somewhat casual now and I only have one toon (no plan to level other). So shroud farming (or any farming for that matter) is rather slow.

Given that I always wanted to provide goodish DPS, I will stick with TWF. THF really seems like the path of least resistance, but I can't knowingly lower my DPS that much. My only fear is that Turbine comes with a great Warchanter III enhancement and that my shroud weapons becomes useless as I force myself in a 18/2 build where the number of feats does not allow for TWF. I guess there will still be the option of dropping the rogue levels and keep fighter, but that would kill the synergy of huge dwarf saves and high dex with evasion...

Thanks for the answers so far, really helped me make up my mind.

Jiirix
06-30-2011, 08:19 AM
Made an Warchanter last week and had to make the same decision. For me it came down to 16 levels bard for iresistable dance, 2 levels of fighter for the feats and

- 2 Levels of rogue with some dex for TWF/ evasion
- 2 Level of barb and dump dex > THF, no evasion but more HP and rage

The second one blends good with ork or warforged. I made a raging ork warchanter in the end.

Valindria
06-30-2011, 09:31 AM
Pretty much everyone has hit the main points.

THF
- Can skip feats to spend elsewhere
- Can dump Dex
- Less Items to Make/Farm
- No hit penalty and 1.5 damage from str

TWF
- IC and other buffs apply to each hand (which is where the more damage comes from).
- Meshes nicely with evasion splashes (need at least 17 dex for twf)
- Two weapons = two effects. If you are using things like curse/roaring/stat damage/etc it can really be an advantage


What did I miss?